Author Topic: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).  (Read 51880 times)

ender

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2016, 05:55:31 AM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

And yet, his position on certain aspects of outsourcing changed only a few years later. When his circumstances changed and it became more efficient for him.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/02/10/should-you-do-your-own-taxes/

Mr. MM has a carefully crafted blog in order to attract visitors and raise his view count. Acting as if he is somehow a demagogue with an actual cohesive and comprehensive viewpoint on everything inspired by the book of MMM? Meh. Basically everything he says boils down to essentially "don't spend money on dumb stuff." But "dumb stuff" is fairly arbitrarily, as you can tell just from his outsourcing post and followup changing his mind on at least one aspect.

GuitarStv

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2016, 05:58:09 AM »
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

I think the underlying issue here is that many of us have a different view of "mustachian" than you do.

My particular view is that it's about being mindful with your money, and and making (as GuitarStv suggested in his post) a good-faith effort to understand the options involved in your financial decisions, be that hiring a housekeeper, buying a 3 vs. 7 year old car (ok, ok, I just can't put "new" in there with a straight face. :), etc.  And then making the decisions based upon a rational understanding of their big-picture effect on the world, the present you, and the future you.

Again, quoting GuitarStv:

Quote
By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

Someone who's never tried doing the housekeeping themselves isn't capable of making this decision in what I'd call a mustachian way.  On the other hand, I suspect that none of the FIREd posters who've already chimed in in this thread are in that boat.

There are some people for whom owning a cell phone at all would not be "mustachian" (for example, someone living in an area without cell reception! :-).  There are others for whom it would be a maximally mustachian decision (it's their business phone and a requirement for their clients to be able to contact them).

It's not crazy to think that a housekeeper falls in the same bin.  My post-tax hourly take-home pay is over $100/hour.  My housekeeper is under $25hour.  I work a lot - and I love it.  I've spent years doing my own housekeeping, and at this point in my life, a housekeeper is a very carefully-considered decision about spending money to be able to allocate my time for things that I enjoy more -- cooking for my family, learning more about fixing my house myself, etc.

So yes - I think there's a mustachian way to arrive at the decision to hire a housekeeper.

For some of us, "mustachian" is a process, not a set of rules to be slavishly adhered to.  For you, it seems different, and that's simply fine.
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

The message on hiring stuff out is a bit less clear than you make it out.  MMM also said that he has someone do his taxes for him.  He said that he always hires someone else to do the mudding/sanding of drywall on builds because he thinks that the pros do a better job than he does.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2016, 07:35:52 AM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.

infogoon

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2016, 07:35:58 AM »
You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.

It's pretty hilarious watching "Mustachianism" go through the same growing pains as any other religion, complete with literalists who insist that any deviation from the Sacred Texts is an act of apostasy.

I always thought that the point of this whole thing was "spend money mindfully on the stuff that matters to you". Then again, I always thought the point of Christianity was "don't be a dick to other people, and help out where you  can", and not the thousands of pages of other guidelines and strictures we've managed to build around it.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2016, 10:14:56 AM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Cool Story, FYI: when the general consensus on ERE Forums and MMM Forums is that maids are for consumerist suckas, there is likely a good reason.

MrMoogle

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2016, 10:57:09 AM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
I'm pretty sure "Mustachian" came from the forum and not the man himself :)
Which is good, since otherwise it's pretty egotistical to refer it that way.  He just uses the word "frugal".

I generally agree with what MMM says, but there have been some posts that I've said to myself, "I understand what he's saying, but I disagree."  I think his views are the closest to mine that I've found, so I stay here.  Most of my views were the way they were before I found this site, but some have been shaped by his posts.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2016, 11:13:56 AM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
I'm pretty sure "Mustachian" came from the forum and not the man himself :)
Which is good, since otherwise it's pretty egotistical to refer it that way.  He just uses the word "frugal".

I generally agree with what MMM says, but there have been some posts that I've said to myself, "I understand what he's saying, but I disagree."  I think his views are the closest to mine that I've found, so I stay here.  Most of my views were the way they were before I found this site, but some have been shaped by his posts.
He uses the word "Mustachian" very often in his articles. I assume he came up with it, but I could be wrong. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with people on things.

MrMoogle

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2016, 01:19:17 PM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
I'm pretty sure "Mustachian" came from the forum and not the man himself :)
Which is good, since otherwise it's pretty egotistical to refer it that way.  He just uses the word "frugal".

I generally agree with what MMM says, but there have been some posts that I've said to myself, "I understand what he's saying, but I disagree."  I think his views are the closest to mine that I've found, so I stay here.  Most of my views were the way they were before I found this site, but some have been shaped by his posts.
He uses the word "Mustachian" very often in his articles. I assume he came up with it, but I could be wrong. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with people on things.
Oh, maybe I'm wrong.

ender

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2016, 01:43:59 PM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Cool Story, FYI: when the general consensus on ERE Forums and MMM Forums is that maids are for consumerist suckas, there is likely a good reason.

Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #209 on: May 16, 2016, 02:00:12 PM »
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Cool Story, FYI: when the general consensus on ERE Forums and MMM Forums is that maids are for consumerist suckas, there is likely a good reason.

Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #210 on: May 16, 2016, 02:06:50 PM »
Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
So... there is no way in the world that the majority of this forum would ever consider it valuable to outsource maid service? If you made $1 million / hour, up to 24 hours per day, it would still be worth it to stop doing that, and clean your house, rather than paying for it? Even if you owned nothing more than your humble home - no car, no electronics, no consumer products, and you biked an hour to work each way, and spent an hour gardening, and an hour cooking, if you still decided to spend $25 / hour to hire a maid to clean up, and it did not affect your retirement date at all, because you were already beyond financially independent, doing so would instantly make that person a consumerist sucka.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #211 on: May 16, 2016, 02:07:57 PM »
Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
So... there is no way in the world that the majority of this forum would ever consider it valuable to outsource maid service? If you made $1 million / hour, up to 24 hours per day, it would still be worth it to stop doing that, and clean your house, rather than paying for it? Even if you owned nothing more than your humble home - no car, no electronics, no consumer products, and you biked an hour to work each way, and spent an hour gardening, and an hour cooking, if you still decided to spend $25 / hour to hire a maid to clean up, and it did not affect your retirement date at all, because you were already beyond financially independent, doing so would instantly make that person a consumerist sucka.
Now you're getting it.

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #212 on: May 16, 2016, 02:13:07 PM »
And now you get why we agree you are being ridiculous. Just because the vast majority of people are unaware of their bad spending habits, and wasting money on maids which affects their retirement date, it simply doesn't apply to all cases no matter what without any reason or logic. The man himself doesn't want you to follow a strict list of rules. He wants you to do things that make sense within the criteria of your specific situation. If the man himself did his own taxes, he'd probably end up paying more in taxes. But when someone who works 9-5 pays someone to do his taxes, he pays the same amount of taxes, but loses $100+ for the unnecessary service. If someone runs a business and can close a deal by working an extra hour, and paying a maid to clean up while he's busy making mad cash helps him free up the time to make his business more successful, it's a GOD DAMN SMART CHOICE! Obviously I'm not saying it makes sense for most people here. There's a good chance that that majority a) makes less $100/hour, b) is not financially independent and c) can make time to clean their house without diminishing their qualify of life. Regardless, it's still not a universal rule of frugality.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #213 on: May 16, 2016, 02:16:43 PM »
And now you get why we agree you are being ridiculous. Just because the vast majority of people are unaware of their bad spending habits, and wasting money on maids which affects their retirement date, it simply doesn't apply to all cases no matter what without any reason or logic. The man himself doesn't want you to follow a strict list of rules. He wants you to do things that make sense within the criteria of your specific situation. If the man himself did his own taxes, he'd probably end up paying more in taxes. But when someone who works 9-5 pays someone to do his taxes, he pays the same amount of taxes, but loses $100+ for the unnecessary service. If someone runs a business and can close a deal by working an extra hour, and paying a maid to clean up while he's busy making mad cash helps him free up the time to make his business more successful, it's a GOD DAMN SMART CHOICE! Obviously I'm not saying it makes sense for most people here. There's a good chance that that majority a) makes less $100/hour, b) is not financially independent and c) can make time to clean their house without diminishing their qualify of life. Regardless, it's still not a universal rule of frugality.
I don't think I'm being ridiculous, I was agreeing with your statement that hiring maids makes you a consumerist sucka. Something can be a smart choice financially and unmustachian at the same time.

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #214 on: May 16, 2016, 02:23:48 PM »
OFF TOPIC
We need a new (or revived*) thread about What it means to be Mustachian, as this is thoroughly off topic. Regardless, perhaps the best way to define what it is to go back to the beginning, and define what it is not:

Quote
But many of my friends and former coworkers remained broke, constantly complaining about how hard middle-class life is these days, and how much they would like to be able to afford to lose at least one of their six-figure salaries so someone could stay home with the kids.

These comments were generally made over expensive pints of microbrew at a restaurant, or on Facebook between announcements regarding the purchase of brand new dealer-financed Subarus, snowboarding trips, and road biking equipment.

And indeed, the whole country seemed to be displaying the same odd behavior: living ridiculously expensive lifestyles while thinking they were completely normal, and then being baffled when they had no money left over to buy their own freedom. All while being so busy that they didnít even have time to understand the science behind why this behavior is trashing the very home that makes our lives even possible.

If you're already really smart with your money, mindfully spending it based on your values, knowing the consequences / tradeoffs of spending that money, knowing it's not normal, and not being mystified about where your money is going, you're already living up to the principles this site was founded on. Simple as that. Any specific behavior you have within those guidelines is irrelevant.

*http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/authoritative-philosophy-of-mustachianism/ http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-makes-you-'officially'-mustachian/
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:30:45 PM by neogodless »

BlueHouse

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #215 on: May 16, 2016, 02:32:26 PM »
Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
So... there is no way in the world that the majority of this forum would ever consider it valuable to outsource maid service? If you made $1 million / hour, up to 24 hours per day, it would still be worth it to stop doing that, and clean your house, rather than paying for it? Even if you owned nothing more than your humble home - no car, no electronics, no consumer products, and you biked an hour to work each way, and spent an hour gardening, and an hour cooking, if you still decided to spend $25 / hour to hire a maid to clean up, and it did not affect your retirement date at all, because you were already beyond financially independent, doing so would instantly make that person a consumerist sucka.
Now you're getting it.
This is absolutely silly.  No, you need to weigh the benefits of each situation against the costs and do an analysis.   I don't think MMM would ever advocate turning off the big thinking machine in our heads just so that we could put a label on ourselves.  Take a step back and look at the big picture.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #216 on: May 16, 2016, 05:22:46 PM »
OFF TOPIC
We need a new (or revived*) thread about What it means to be Mustachian, as this is thoroughly off topic. Regardless, perhaps the best way to define what it is to go back to the beginning, and define what it is not:

Quote
But many of my friends and former coworkers remained broke, constantly complaining about how hard middle-class life is these days, and how much they would like to be able to afford to lose at least one of their six-figure salaries so someone could stay home with the kids.

These comments were generally made over expensive pints of microbrew at a restaurant, or on Facebook between announcements regarding the purchase of brand new dealer-financed Subarus, snowboarding trips, and road biking equipment.

And indeed, the whole country seemed to be displaying the same odd behavior: living ridiculously expensive lifestyles while thinking they were completely normal, and then being baffled when they had no money left over to buy their own freedom. All while being so busy that they didnít even have time to understand the science behind why this behavior is trashing the very home that makes our lives even possible.

If you're already really smart with your money, mindfully spending it based on your values, knowing the consequences / tradeoffs of spending that money, knowing it's not normal, and not being mystified about where your money is going, you're already living up to the principles this site was founded on. Simple as that. Any specific behavior you have within those guidelines is irrelevant.

*http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/authoritative-philosophy-of-mustachianism/ http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-makes-you-'officially'-mustachian/
MMM has said he has 3 main goals for this blog, which are the principles the site was founded on,
1. To make you rich so you can retire early.
2. To make you happy so you can properly enjoy your early retirement.
3. To save the whole Human Race from destroying itself through overconsumption of its over habitat.
For the record.

swick

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #217 on: May 16, 2016, 09:27:52 PM »
MOD NOTE: Judging by the multiple complaints, this thread has run its course. Why don't yall step away from the screens and go make 100 bucks an hour, clean your house or go play outside.