Author Topic: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).  (Read 52949 times)

tomatops

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2016, 11:29:57 AM »
"Not paying off your full credit card balance each month actually gets you better credit because companies will more willingly led to you because they know they can make money off of you."

Ummmmm... No. Just no.

Inkedup

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2016, 11:35:26 AM »
I once worked for someone who had a messiah complex and made constant attempts to meddle in his employees' personal lives. He tried to get everyone to sign up for sessions with Landmark Education, which, if you've never heard of it, is a lot like EST. I tried to put him off politely by telling him that I couldn't afford the fee, which was $300 at the time. His response: "Easy. Finance it."

I didn't stay at that place too long.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:39:26 AM by Inkedup »

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2016, 11:36:29 AM »
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Spend time on build furniture, repairing cars, programming your computer, playing a musical instrument? These are skills you can develop and enjoy. That's not to say you can't enjoy learning how to clean your toilet, and get better at it. But it simply does not compare. It's repetitive work, and you'll just have to do it again next week, and the next, forever, until you die.

Do you hand grind your coffee beans?
Do you build a fire every time you want hot water?
Do you ride a bike 300 miles to visit family?
Do you pave your own roads?
Do you grow all your own food?

Just because you can draw for yourself an arbitrary line of what has value worth trading money for does not mean in even the slightest that you have the ultimate and universal wisdom for all other human beings. Now that doesn't mean we, who choose to make informed, practical, beneficial decisions with our money shall go down the slopes of slipperiness into consumer suckerism for all eternity. It just means you don't get to decide for other people, and unless they are struggling with their finances and asking for your advice, there's really no point in you giving it. Your values are not wrong. Neither are other people's values. They are just different. (What's wrong is trying to force your values on other people.)

(I do, from time to time, grind my beans. I find it most entertaining and useful when I'm camping, and I build a fire when I want hot water, and then I walk many miles just to end up back where I started. Maybe even make my own trails and cook some freshly acquired food over a campfire. That's not my point!)

MrMoogle

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2016, 11:41:33 AM »
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

That said, in general, using a maid might be unmastachian, but there are usually exceptions to the rule :)

GuitarStv

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2016, 11:47:27 AM »
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

You said that he spends less time with his family, and he clearly has less spare time to pursue his interests.  Unless he loves his job I don't think you could argue that that is mustachian . . . it's just a higher rate of pay.

BlueHouse

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2016, 11:58:11 AM »
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

You said that he spends less time with his family, and he clearly has less spare time to pursue his interests.  Unless he loves his job I don't think you could argue that that is mustachian . . . it's just a higher rate of pay.
I think Moogle is saying that the extra 15 hours/week at work offset by the amount of time he previously would have spent mowing the lawn and cleaning the house.  So now he has "nearly the same amount of time", and he will achieve FI so much faster because of the choice. 

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2016, 12:16:05 PM »
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Spend time on build furniture, repairing cars, programming your computer, playing a musical instrument? These are skills you can develop and enjoy. That's not to say you can't enjoy learning how to clean your toilet, and get better at it. But it simply does not compare. It's repetitive work, and you'll just have to do it again next week, and the next, forever, until you die.

Do you hand grind your coffee beans?
Do you build a fire every time you want hot water?
Do you ride a bike 300 miles to visit family?
Do you pave your own roads?
Do you grow all your own food?

Just because you can draw for yourself an arbitrary line of what has value worth trading money for does not mean in even the slightest that you have the ultimate and universal wisdom for all other human beings. Now that doesn't mean we, who choose to make informed, practical, beneficial decisions with our money shall go down the slopes of slipperiness into consumer suckerism for all eternity. It just means you don't get to decide for other people, and unless they are struggling with their finances and asking for your advice, there's really no point in you giving it. Your values are not wrong. Neither are other people's values. They are just different. (What's wrong is trying to force your values on other people.)

(I do, from time to time, grind my beans. I find it most entertaining and useful when I'm camping, and I build a fire when I want hot water, and then I walk many miles just to end up back where I started. Maybe even make my own trails and cook some freshly acquired food over a campfire. That's not my point!)
I'm actually quite fine drawing a line in that, mustachians should clean up after themselves, at least to an acceptable level.

iris lily

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2016, 12:26:43 PM »
I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Dude, today for lunch I had bean soup.we grew the beans, dried beans in several kinds, as well as the onions in it.  My father in law grew the piggy that provided the bits of pork. We do for ourselves quite a lot and this soup was a family produced affair.

I dare you to tell me that youve grown and shelled the beans you ate this year.

Thet are so much better than beans  from another continent that have beem lying around for years in some warehouse. Why dont you value have me grown beans? Do you just fo to a store and vuy them? Surely you dont, gasp, buy them i a can??!!!

 I had house cleaners when I was working, especially during summertime when
I was had many gardens fo keep up. house cleaning was not worth my life energy. Many hands-on work IS worth my energy.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:30:02 PM by iris lily »

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2016, 12:47:55 PM »
I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Dude, today for lunch I had bean soup.we grew the beans, dried beans in several kinds, as well as the onions in it.  My father in law grew the piggy that provided the bits of pork. We do for ourselves quite a lot and this soup was a family produced affair.

I dare you to tell me that youve grown and shelled the beans you ate this year.

Thet are so much better than beans  from another continent that have beem lying around for years in some warehouse. Why dont you value have me grown beans? Do you just fo to a store and vuy them? Surely you dont, gasp, buy them i a can??!!!

 I had house cleaners when I was working, especially during summertime when
I was had many gardens fo keep up. house cleaning was not worth my life energy. Many hands-on work IS worth my energy.
I buy my beans in bulk from Winco, they've probably sat in a warehouse. I grow a lot of my own vegetables, am also building my 2nd house, spend an hour a day riding my electric bike(my only vehicle) to work everyday, etc. I don't see how any of this is relevant to cleaning up after yourself to an acceptable level.

MrMoogle

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2016, 01:02:28 PM »
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

You said that he spends less time with his family, and he clearly has less spare time to pursue his interests.  Unless he loves his job I don't think you could argue that that is mustachian . . . it's just a higher rate of pay.
I think Moogle is saying that the extra 15 hours/week at work offset by the amount of time he previously would have spent mowing the lawn and cleaning the house.  So now he has "nearly the same amount of time", and he will achieve FI so much faster because of the choice.
Yeah, this is what I meant.  He's not quite mustachian, but that job helped optimize his life.  Instead of the hour eating out for lunch every day, to save time packed his lunch instead.  I would consider optimizing your income per hour to fall in line with other mustachian principles, and one way was to outsource cleaning and lawn to a net positive.

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2016, 01:08:33 PM »
I'm actually quite fine drawing a line in that, mustachians should clean up after themselves, at least to an acceptable level.

You are absolutely entitled to draw your own lines for yourself. You don't get to define what it means to be "mustachian" (or more importantly, "How Other Humans Decide To Spend Their Life Energy/Time/Money.") You certainly aren't in charge of defining "acceptable levels of cleanliness" for other humans. We didn't vote for you. (And I don't mean the "voting" that takes place in national elections, either. I mean, like real, we decided you could make those decisions for us.)

The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task. No one is saying you should change your mind about whether cleaning is something that's acceptable to outsource. It is not for you and that shall not change, ever, regardless of your own personal circumstances between now and the end of all time. But why do you think it's acceptable for you to draw these lines for other people, to define what they value? I suppose, really, any of us arguing with you should feel ashamed we value what you say or think or feel at all! We're going to continue making our own informed decisions about what constitutes a good use of our time and money, and what does not, and it's not going to be affected by your soap box broadcast.

I don't hire a cleaner. I do have an electric coffee bean grinder and electric kettle. I do let someone (something?) in a factory make the filters for my coffee rather than trying to mush wood into fiber (and I spend a good penny for each of those filters!) I have decades of experience with computer hardware, software, networks and security, but I still pay $19.99/month to host my freelance clients' web sites safely elsewhere. My mower has a motor powered by gasoline rather than muscle.

Do I hang my head low, as I lurk among the Mustachian elite, hiding my face in shame?

Why is it so important that other people clean their toilets with their own hands? Would you like a surgeon to clean his toilet shortly before operating on your heart? Lazy bastard seems to leave that to a janitor. Sissy!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 01:10:14 PM by neogodless »

GuitarStv

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2016, 01:11:36 PM »
Quote
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.

Which is which is entirely a matter of perspective.

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2016, 01:18:45 PM »
Quote
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.

Which is which is entirely a matter of perspective.

Absolutely, my point exactly :)

"changing oil"
"replacing brakes"
"rebuilding engine"

"mowing yard"
"cutting down trees"
"making boards and building barns"

"washing dishes"
"cleaning toilets"
"making ceramic bowls and glass-blowing"

"cooking dinner"
"growing beans"
"raising livestock and butchering it"

Everything has levels; everything can be approached from your own perspective and values.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2016, 01:37:16 PM »
I'm actually quite fine drawing a line in that, mustachians should clean up after themselves, at least to an acceptable level.

You are absolutely entitled to draw your own lines for yourself. You don't get to define what it means to be "mustachian" (or more importantly, "How Other Humans Decide To Spend Their Life Energy/Time/Money.") You certainly aren't in charge of defining "acceptable levels of cleanliness" for other humans. We didn't vote for you. (And I don't mean the "voting" that takes place in national elections, either. I mean, like real, we decided you could make those decisions for us.)

The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task. No one is saying you should change your mind about whether cleaning is something that's acceptable to outsource. It is not for you and that shall not change, ever, regardless of your own personal circumstances between now and the end of all time. But why do you think it's acceptable for you to draw these lines for other people, to define what they value? I suppose, really, any of us arguing with you should feel ashamed we value what you say or think or feel at all! We're going to continue making our own informed decisions about what constitutes a good use of our time and money, and what does not, and it's not going to be affected by your soap box broadcast.

I don't hire a cleaner. I do have an electric coffee bean grinder and electric kettle. I do let someone (something?) in a factory make the filters for my coffee rather than trying to mush wood into fiber (and I spend a good penny for each of those filters!) I have decades of experience with computer hardware, software, networks and security, but I still pay $19.99/month to host my freelance clients' web sites safely elsewhere. My mower has a motor powered by gasoline rather than muscle.

Do I hang my head low, as I lurk among the Mustachian elite, hiding my face in shame?

Why is it so important that other people clean their toilets with their own hands? Would you like a surgeon to clean his toilet shortly before operating on your heart? Lazy bastard seems to leave that to a janitor. Sissy!
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Jack

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2016, 01:43:57 PM »
"I financed this 65" TV so I could rebuild my credit score"

At 0% interest then that is ok

Unless you're charging admission, a 65" TV isn't OK no matter how you paid for it!

From friend: "don't invest because we are in the final crisis of capitalism because ROBOTS"

That doesn't even make sense even if you do believe it. In that case, you should invest in the robots.

Granite counter tops are outdated -- you need to replace them!  (Should you really throw away things for which you're still paying?)

That offends me even more ecologically than it does financially.

"Go to college if you don't want to work in fast food your entire life."

Then, once you have your degree and can't get a job in your field, "What, you think you're too good to work in fast food now that you have a degree?"

I wasn't sure what the worst advice I've heard was, but that's it! Holy shit I can't stand the hypocritical assholes who say that!

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2016, 01:46:36 PM »
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2016, 02:17:44 PM »
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.
What you don't seem to understand, is that I'm not talking about every individual, I'm talking about mustachians. People are idiots and will do whatever they want regardless of what anyone says, but if someone incorrectly claims to be mustachian on this forum, expect to get debated.

Here are 4 articles I quickly pulled up that all have references that hiring a maid is unmustachian. You can pretty much find stuff in every other article about it.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/04/01/mmm-spending-2015/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #167 on: May 13, 2016, 02:36:40 PM »
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #168 on: May 13, 2016, 02:38:30 PM »
Do Mustachians also take their trash to the dump themselves (by bicycle, of course), or is it OK to pay the city to pick it up once a week? Do Mustachians generate their own electricity (by bicycle?), or pay the utility company to generate it and transport it to their dwelling? Do Mustachians in cold climates keep a hothouse for growing their own orange trees, or do they pay for other people to grow oranges, pick them, squeeze them, package the juice, and drive it to the grocery store?

I think it's funny that it's OK to quit working because you want to CHOOSE how you use your time, but it's not OK to quit cleaning your toilet for the same reason.

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #169 on: May 13, 2016, 02:38:37 PM »
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.

All this. Like I said in a previous post, I recently invested 2 hours into replacing 3 components on my HVAC system which saved me like $1,300 based on what I was quoted by HVAC tech. And you guys are moaning because I won't spend 3 hours on a Saturday morning cleaning to save $100(while you probably contract out all your hvac work).

a-scho

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2016, 03:05:15 PM »
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.
What you don't seem to understand, is that I'm not talking about every individual, I'm talking about mustachians. People are idiots and will do whatever they want regardless of what anyone says, but if someone incorrectly claims to be mustachian on this forum, expect to get debated.

Here are 4 articles I quickly pulled up that all have references that hiring a maid is unmustachian. You can pretty much find stuff in every other article about it.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/04/01/mmm-spending-2015/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

This reminds me of Catholicism...........We can't call ourselves Mustachian because of X, Y, Z.....Then maybe we need to create a protestant offshoot that is very similar to Mustachian but with a few tweeks. These are the things I would nail on the door.

1. You are allowed to spend money on things you could do yourself but choose not to because you don't like doing it. As long as you accept the financial consequences of that choice.
2. You choose where you spend your free time....and how much it costs.

I have always been frugal and became FIRE before I read my first MMM post. I don't like cleaning and I live with somebody who won't let strangers into our house to clean it. He also doesn't like cleaning. What ends up happening is we rarely clean and the house looks it. I read a previous post where apparently I'm not Mustachian if I don't keep it clean to a certain level. So, I guess I'm not Mustachian.....I'm an Aschoist.

dandarc

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #171 on: May 13, 2016, 03:07:48 PM »
"Buy my commercial property for $25K(half of fair market value) and rent-to-own it back to me for $1K / month for 3 years.  I'm considering filing bankruptcy, but don't worry about that."

BrickByBrick

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #172 on: May 13, 2016, 04:08:06 PM »
There are a lot of judgments being passed around in this thread.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #173 on: May 13, 2016, 04:13:39 PM »
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

Jack

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #174 on: May 13, 2016, 04:15:20 PM »
"Buy my commercial property for $25K(half of fair market value) and rent-to-own it back to me for $1K / month for 3 years.  I'm considering filing bankruptcy, but don't worry about that."

Wouldn't the value of that particular bit of advice strongly depend on what the fair market rent is once you've evicted his insolvent ass?

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #175 on: May 13, 2016, 04:17:26 PM »
"Buy my commercial property for $25K(half of fair market value) and rent-to-own it back to me for $1K / month for 3 years.  I'm considering filing bankruptcy, but don't worry about that."

Wouldn't the value of that particular bit of advice strongly depend on what the fair market rent is once you've evicted his insolvent ass?
that is actually the title of a recent thread on this forum.... You can find more details if you look for it.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #176 on: May 13, 2016, 05:44:16 PM »
whoa people who are FIREd have maids holy cow and i noticed 1 was 58 so you likely dont have kids at home anymore. questions galore

1. how big is your house
2. wtf are you doing all day everday you dont have time to pick up and clean once a week
3. i can understand the excuses for those who are not FIREd (kinda - not really but they are better)
4. i guess if you have the money who cares but i mean to each his own. 
5. we all FIRE so we can do whatever we want and watching a maid clean while i drink starbucks isnt my plan but i guess if those things make you happy.

1. Large. But that's not the problem.

2. I'm sure I could make time to clean my house. I do tidy it. I don't live in a slovenly mess, leaving food and dirty kleenex everywhere I go, waiting for my maids to come pick that up for me. They do the vacuuming, washing the floors, cleaning bathrooms, etc.

Things I would rather do than clean: 1) garden, 2) mow the lawn, 3) read on my porch, 4) go for a walk, 5) watch a documentary, 6) volunteer for a worthy organization, 7) have a conversation with my spouse, 8) play video games, 9) do tax work.

The last one is important. Despite being FIRE'd, I accidentally-on-purpose became self-employed as a tax-practitioner. I can choose to do work that I enjoy more than cleaning and people will pay me more per hour than what I pay to have my house cleaned. Why would I ever choose to spend time inefficiently cleaning my house (they do a 3x better job than me, 3x faster than me), and hating it the entire time? And when I have free time, why would I choose to do something I loathe, instead of something fun that I'd actually like to do?

If I wanted to trade my time doing labor that I hate for $30/hr, then I didn't really need to quit my job, did I? I can't understand the concept of trading my job for other labor that I don't want to do.

3. Why? Before I was FIRE'd, it was far more important to save money so that I could be financial independent. I was a lot more willing to give up my time in exchange for dollars earned OR saved. Being financial independent means I don't have to do that anymore.

4. I do.

5. I do not watch the maids clean or drink Starbucks. It's not really that having a maid service brings me joy (although they are very nice ladies). It's that other things bring me a lot more joy than cleaning. I prefer to do things that bring me actual happiness, as opposed to things that suck. I still do some things that suck. There's plenty enough chores to go around in life.

woopwoop

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #177 on: May 13, 2016, 05:59:00 PM »
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.
This for me, is the exact reason that I would never hire a maid as long as I am able-bodied. Cleaning your own toilet is a necessary and unpleasant task. Cleaning somebody else's toilet is much more unpleasant. And if I'm going to pay money to people to do things for me, I don't want them to be demeaning, unpleasant tasks that I can easily accomplish on my own. Perhaps it's because I used to help my mom work as a housekeeper, but personal cleanliness is one of the most basic things that I think is pretty bad to outsource. To me it doesn't pass the sniff test of: "would I be willing to stand there watching while the person did the job I paid them for?" Would you be willing to stand there in the doorway just watching while someone wiped up your pubic hairs and scrubbed your shit stains? People keep saying that if you have the money, then whatever goes, but to me there's an aspect of morality to it that isn't there with growing and grinding coffee beans, for example.

Apart from that, the worst houseguests I've ever had were, without exception, people who hired out maids and who never thought about cleaning up after themselves. I just think it's training yourself in the worst way.

And for a better contribution to the thread: the worst financial advice I've ever received came from a broke friend who couldn't buy enough insurance. I don't know if it was a family thing, but she always was recommending that I get life insurance or accident insurance or travel insurance. As a math person, I always shy away from insurance that isn't mandatory because, well, it's almost always a bad deal. But she was adamant: "Did you get a warranty for your cell phone?" Uh, no. The warranty would cost half as much as my phone again. "But what if you drop it in water?!"

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #178 on: May 13, 2016, 07:56:40 PM »
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #179 on: May 13, 2016, 11:52:03 PM »
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.
You don't have to agree with all aspects of mustachianism, but don't claim maids are mustachian, as they clearly are not

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #180 on: May 14, 2016, 05:16:47 AM »
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.

There are facts and math behind these not something written and compiled years ago for political reasons.

ender

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #181 on: May 14, 2016, 06:12:38 AM »
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

The funny thing is it wasn't very many years later that he wrote an article lauding the benefits of outsourcing his taxes.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/02/10/should-you-do-your-own-taxes/

You know why? Because it made sense to do that.

GuitarStv

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #182 on: May 14, 2016, 08:57:34 AM »
Quote
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.

Which is which is entirely a matter of perspective.

Absolutely, my point exactly :)

"changing oil"
"replacing brakes"
"rebuilding engine"

"mowing yard"
"cutting down trees"
"making boards and building barns"

"washing dishes"
"cleaning toilets"
"making ceramic bowls and glass-blowing"

"cooking dinner"
"growing beans"
"raising livestock and butchering it"

Everything has levels; everything can be approached from your own perspective and values.

Hiring out a task because of differing values is one thing.  It's when you start hiring out a task because it's 'unpleasant' though is where you make a mistake.  If daily things that need to be done are unpleasant, that's indicative of a poor mindset.  Fix your mindset rather than hire out your task.  There's an awful lot of stuff that I've learned to enjoy and find joy in doing that I once found unpleasant.  Including cleaning a toilet.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #183 on: May 14, 2016, 10:26:06 AM »
Hiring out a task because of differing values is one thing.  It's when you start hiring out a task because it's 'unpleasant' though is where you make a mistake.  If daily things that need to be done are unpleasant, that's indicative of a poor mindset.  Fix your mindset rather than hire out your task.  There's an awful lot of stuff that I've learned to enjoy and find joy in doing that I once found unpleasant.  Including cleaning a toilet.

Many people hire me to do their taxes because they find doing taxes to be unpleasant and time consuming. I don't accuse them of having a poor mindset. People don't have to enjoy everything. And there is efficiency to hiring a specialist to complete some tasks.

And if I'm going to pay money to people to do things for me, I don't want them to be demeaning, unpleasant tasks that I can easily accomplish on my own. Perhaps it's because I used to help my mom work as a housekeeper, but personal cleanliness is one of the most basic things that I think is pretty bad to outsource. To me it doesn't pass the sniff test of: "would I be willing to stand there watching while the person did the job I paid them for?" Would you be willing to stand there in the doorway just watching while someone wiped up your pubic hairs and scrubbed your shit stains? People keep saying that if you have the money, then whatever goes, but to me there's an aspect of morality to it that isn't there with growing and grinding coffee beans, for example.

Apart from that, the worst houseguests I've ever had were, without exception, people who hired out maids and who never thought about cleaning up after themselves. I just think it's training yourself in the worst way.

I wouldn't watch my cleaning ladies clean my house, because they are professional women who do not require my supervision or input. I try not to get in their way or waste their time, because their time is valuable. I don't presume that being a maid is degrading - it's simply their job. They seem to have a good time chatting and working as a team, but I would not insult their intelligence or decision-making skills by asking them if their smiles are hiding their unhappiness and degradation.

I also don't understand the assumption that my house is filthy and covered in shit stains after two weeks or that just because I have a maid service twice a month, I refuse to pick up after myself. My house would be rather horrific to live in if I never picked anything up and left shit smears to rot in my bathroom. An every-two-week cleaning wouldn't do much to improve that situation.

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #184 on: May 14, 2016, 10:56:58 AM »
I doubt maids resent people for hiring them to do "demeaning" work. On the contrary they're probably happy to be hired and given the opportunity to work in the profession they chose. Is it morally wrong to go to a fast food restaurant because you deem flipping burgers demeaning too? What about using a trash pickup service? Surely if cleaning a house is demeaning than picking up someone's garbage from the curb is too.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 10:58:33 AM by anorman79 »

woopwoop

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #185 on: May 14, 2016, 04:43:52 PM »
I'm not going to get into a lengthy discussion about "choosing" to do housework as a profession. It's hard on your body and ill-paying, and most women who do it are not doing it as their first choice of occupation, but rather because it's an easy entry job, especially for immigrants and unskilled workers. Have you spent lots of time cleaning other people's bathrooms and linens? It sucks. You can argue against it with any sort of equivocation you want, but saying that they should be happy for the work because they're getting paid is a real slippery slope that I don't agree with. To me there's a spectrum of morality when it comes to outsourcing labor, and ignoring that aspect of it completely is antithetical to mindful living. Obviously I've drawn the line at a different point than you, but to pretend there's no line at all is wrong.

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2016, 05:57:39 PM »
I'm not going to get into a lengthy discussion about "choosing" to do housework as a profession. It's hard on your body and ill-paying, and most women who do it are not doing it as their first choice of occupation, but rather because it's an easy entry job, especially for immigrants and unskilled workers. Have you spent lots of time cleaning other people's bathrooms and linens? It sucks. You can argue against it with any sort of equivocation you want, but saying that they should be happy for the work because they're getting paid is a real slippery slope that I don't agree with. To me there's a spectrum of morality when it comes to outsourcing labor, and ignoring that aspect of it completely is antithetical to mindful living. Obviously I've drawn the line at a different point than you, but to pretend there's no line at all is wrong.

Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.

Cressida

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #187 on: May 14, 2016, 06:07:52 PM »
I'm not going to get into a lengthy discussion about "choosing" to do housework as a profession. It's hard on your body and ill-paying, and most women who do it are not doing it as their first choice of occupation, but rather because it's an easy entry job, especially for immigrants and unskilled workers. Have you spent lots of time cleaning other people's bathrooms and linens? It sucks. You can argue against it with any sort of equivocation you want, but saying that they should be happy for the work because they're getting paid is a real slippery slope that I don't agree with. To me there's a spectrum of morality when it comes to outsourcing labor, and ignoring that aspect of it completely is antithetical to mindful living. Obviously I've drawn the line at a different point than you, but to pretend there's no line at all is wrong.

Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.

Without getting too far into this discussion, I will just point out that trash pickup pays a lot better than cleaning houses.

woopwoop

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2016, 08:33:24 PM »
Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.
Of course I use trash pickup. The environmental impact of everyone driving their trash individually to the dump would be stupid, not to mention most cities have automated truck pickup nowadays. I don't hire someone to come personally to my house, take my trash out of my kitchen, put it in the bin, and replace the liner. Do you? Would you view that as okay if you had the money and didn't want to touch the bag of trash yourself because you find it too unpleasant and tedious? Or is there absolutely no line at all to be drawn when it comes to outsourcing unpleasant work?

I mean, this is frankly ridiculous. There's a guy comparing getting paid $300/hr to do taxes in an office and getting paid $15/hr to scrub bathrooms as both "unpleasant" work. Come the fuck on.

iris lily

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2016, 08:49:38 PM »
Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.
Of course I use trash pickup. The environmental impact of everyone driving their trash individually to the dump would be stupid, not to mention most cities have automated truck pickup nowadays. I don't hire someone to come personally to my house, take my trash out of my kitchen, put it in the bin, and replace the liner. Do you? Would you view that as okay if you had the money and didn't want to touch the bag of trash yourself because you find it too unpleasant and tedious? Or is there absolutely no line at all to be drawn when it comes to outsourcing unpleasant work?

I mean, this is frankly ridiculous. There's a guy comparing getting paid $300/hr to do taxes in an office and getting paid $15/hr to scrub bathrooms as both "unpleasant" work. Come the fuck on.

Still trying to understand where you draw the line. Lets take the outdoor equivilant of housecleaning: gardening..

I think of them as being similar, only I dont like house cleaning as much as gardening. . Cleaning toilets take up about .8 of that time, just like picking up dog poo in our yard is a tiny percentage of the time  I spend making our yard and garden neat and tidy and pretty.

So, maintennce gardeners seem similar in pay and status to house cleaners. If I outsource my house cleaning but insist on doing my own gardening including dog poop duty, am I only partially corrupt?

« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 11:05:52 AM by iris lily »

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #190 on: May 15, 2016, 05:01:32 AM »
I mean, this is frankly ridiculous.

This is ridiculous. Comparing being a maid to basically slave labor or something and implying it's immoral to hire them. I doubt you've ever even talked to a maid and asked them how they feel about their job. They'd probably be offended if they knew how lowly you thought of what they do.

Kaybee

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2016, 09:51:20 AM »
First off...can we just stop debating the maid service and the definition of Mustachian?  Nobody's mind is going to be changed and the thread has been completely hijacked from its original, amusing purpose. :)

The worst financial advice I was ever given involved my first vehicle.  I was fresh-faced out of school and *needed* a car to get me to my first job (there was no public transportation where I lived and the job was sandwiched between a HCOL area and an actually dangerous area about an hour's drive away).  My super-non-Mustachian parents offered to loan me a $1-2k deposit so I could lease a vehicle.  So I go to dealerships specifically looking for a lease (happened to find out students didn't require deposits at the time so ended up not needing Mom and Dad's money).  During the paperwork session, they ask if I wanted the extended warranty.  I'm not sure so I call non-Mustachian father who thinks its a good idea for only an extra $150 a month.  A few years in, I become more frugal and realize how much money I've lost to this lease.  I did buy it out though, walked in with a bank draft that was based on the cash I had saved.  A few years of no car payments later, the parentals recommended I replace it with a newer vehicle so I wouldn't have to deal with the cost of repairs. *shakes head*. I drove that car for 11 years, at which point the driver of a *giant* pick up in my rural area failed to see me (he was texting) and T-boned me hard enough to write the vehicle off. 

Unfortunately, post-accident (while fearful of driving), I was advised to acquire a larger vehicle (looking back I'm not sure why since the size of my car had nothing to do with the accident)...I did so and then kinda got hooked so I'm still a failure in the Mustachian vehicle department.

jeromedawg

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #192 on: May 15, 2016, 10:14:44 AM »
Renting is just throwing your money away, buy a house!

Or, "Buying a new home (to live in) is the best investment you could ever make!" - oh, I'm sure they just meant "investment" in the context of making memories with your perfect family of 5. LOL.

jeromedawg

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2016, 10:18:43 AM »
"Not paying off your full credit card balance each month actually gets you better credit because companies will more willingly led to you because they know they can make money off of you."

Ummmmm... No. Just no.

This is (or was, rather) my in-laws! They think that floating their credit card debt is the way to go because the more they spend the better it looks. To the extent that they were incurring late-fees galore. So now my wife accesses their accounts to make sure they're paying their bills on time. It's a bit ridiculous - they run a restaurant business yet they don't know how to check their bills online and rely on the mail (they're very old school Chinese people). It feels a bit like taking care of children on the financial side with them at times.

jeromedawg

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2016, 10:23:52 AM »
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.


Agreed. I enjoy fly fishing... does Mustachianism mean I should suppress my desires because fly fishing is known to be an expensive hobby? Where there's a will to find stuff on the cheap, there's a way. And even finding stuff on the cheap is a relative term. What it ultimately comes down to is having a sound enough mind to know that you're not throwing your life savings away on that hobby... unless of course thats what you want to retire doing :D
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 10:27:21 AM by jplee3 »

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #195 on: May 15, 2016, 10:44:13 AM »
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

GuitarStv

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #196 on: May 15, 2016, 12:17:47 PM »
Hiring out a task because of differing values is one thing.  It's when you start hiring out a task because it's 'unpleasant' though is where you make a mistake.  If daily things that need to be done are unpleasant, that's indicative of a poor mindset.  Fix your mindset rather than hire out your task.  There's an awful lot of stuff that I've learned to enjoy and find joy in doing that I once found unpleasant.  Including cleaning a toilet.

Many people hire me to do their taxes because they find doing taxes to be unpleasant and time consuming. I don't accuse them of having a poor mindset. People don't have to enjoy everything. And there is efficiency to hiring a specialist to complete some tasks.

People don't have to enjoy everything . . . but you should make significant effort to learn to enjoy any everyday, common task.  Even if you can afford to pay someone else to do it.

There's a clear difference in mindset between choosing to do one task over another for convenience sake or differing values rather than deciding that something is unpleasant out of hand and paying others to avoid it.  In the former you're choosing the most pleasurable of two enjoyable activities.  In the future if you can't afford to have someone else do the task for you then it's not so bad because it's an enjoyable task - so you'll be happy doing it.  In the latter, you are stuck into a very inflexible way of looking at things.  If in the future you can't afford to have someone else do the task for you, then you are forced to do something that you've decreed is unpleasant - which guarantees unhappiness.

By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

thd7t

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #197 on: May 15, 2016, 12:35:15 PM »
I mean, this is frankly ridiculous.

This is ridiculous. Comparing being a maid to basically slave labor or something and implying it's immoral to hire them. I doubt you've ever even talked to a maid and asked them how they feel about their job. They'd probably be offended if they knew how lowly you thought of what they do.
Well, many housecleaning services are fairly exploitative. There are pretty good studies of it. For a really good read on the subject, I strongly recommend "Nickeled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich.
A lot of people in this thread (on both sides of the outsourcing issue) are making claims that people on this forum are more intelligent than average and that they do analysis of their use of time and money.

Reading on here for the last few years, I would say that on average, posters here are of average intelligence and are set in their ways. We're all pretty good at rationalizing our positions, but terrible at really considering anything that challenges decisions we've made.

csprof

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #198 on: May 15, 2016, 12:47:40 PM »
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

I think the underlying issue here is that many of us have a different view of "mustachian" than you do.

My particular view is that it's about being mindful with your money, and and making (as GuitarStv suggested in his post) a good-faith effort to understand the options involved in your financial decisions, be that hiring a housekeeper, buying a 3 vs. 7 year old car (ok, ok, I just can't put "new" in there with a straight face. :), etc.  And then making the decisions based upon a rational understanding of their big-picture effect on the world, the present you, and the future you.

Again, quoting GuitarStv:

Quote
By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

Someone who's never tried doing the housekeeping themselves isn't capable of making this decision in what I'd call a mustachian way.  On the other hand, I suspect that none of the FIREd posters who've already chimed in in this thread are in that boat.

There are some people for whom owning a cell phone at all would not be "mustachian" (for example, someone living in an area without cell reception! :-).  There are others for whom it would be a maximally mustachian decision (it's their business phone and a requirement for their clients to be able to contact them).

It's not crazy to think that a housekeeper falls in the same bin.  My post-tax hourly take-home pay is over $100/hour.  My housekeeper is under $25hour.  I work a lot - and I love it.  I've spent years doing my own housekeeping, and at this point in my life, a housekeeper is a very carefully-considered decision about spending money to be able to allocate my time for things that I enjoy more -- cooking for my family, learning more about fixing my house myself, etc.

So yes - I think there's a mustachian way to arrive at the decision to hire a housekeeper.

For some of us, "mustachian" is a process, not a set of rules to be slavishly adhered to.  For you, it seems different, and that's simply fine.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #199 on: May 15, 2016, 10:55:13 PM »
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

I think the underlying issue here is that many of us have a different view of "mustachian" than you do.

My particular view is that it's about being mindful with your money, and and making (as GuitarStv suggested in his post) a good-faith effort to understand the options involved in your financial decisions, be that hiring a housekeeper, buying a 3 vs. 7 year old car (ok, ok, I just can't put "new" in there with a straight face. :), etc.  And then making the decisions based upon a rational understanding of their big-picture effect on the world, the present you, and the future you.

Again, quoting GuitarStv:

Quote
By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

Someone who's never tried doing the housekeeping themselves isn't capable of making this decision in what I'd call a mustachian way.  On the other hand, I suspect that none of the FIREd posters who've already chimed in in this thread are in that boat.

There are some people for whom owning a cell phone at all would not be "mustachian" (for example, someone living in an area without cell reception! :-).  There are others for whom it would be a maximally mustachian decision (it's their business phone and a requirement for their clients to be able to contact them).

It's not crazy to think that a housekeeper falls in the same bin.  My post-tax hourly take-home pay is over $100/hour.  My housekeeper is under $25hour.  I work a lot - and I love it.  I've spent years doing my own housekeeping, and at this point in my life, a housekeeper is a very carefully-considered decision about spending money to be able to allocate my time for things that I enjoy more -- cooking for my family, learning more about fixing my house myself, etc.

So yes - I think there's a mustachian way to arrive at the decision to hire a housekeeper.

For some of us, "mustachian" is a process, not a set of rules to be slavishly adhered to.  For you, it seems different, and that's simply fine.
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/