The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Omy on December 11, 2020, 06:48:18 AM
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I'm curious to see if partisanship affects our trust in the vaccines coming our way. If you consider yourself independent, I'm asking you to choose 1-3 if you lean the tiniest bit liberal or 4-6 if you lean the tiniest bit conservative. Regardless of political affiliation, if you are required by your job to be vaccinated or if your health is too compromised to take a vaccine, please choose 7 or 8.
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No 'moderate' option? Also, I think 'liberal' and 'conservative' might be better terms here, as I don't consider myself a Republican ;)
Probably. I believe in due caution, but I am very pro-vaccine overall, and I'm a big fan of that 95% prevention rate, but I probably won't get it immediately. Plus, I'm younger, so I probably wouldn't be able to get one for awhile anyway.
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I specifically wanted to see if politics affected choice which was why I don't have moderate options. I have edited to change to liberal and conservative.
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I have some misgivings about the speed of development, but it'll likely be multiple months an many hundreds of thousands of people vaccinated before it's offered to me . . . so yeah, I'll get the vaccine if it's still seen as safe at that point.
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I specifically wanted to see if politics affected choice which was why I don't have moderate options. I will edit to change to liberal and conservative.
Ah, that's fair. I guess most people swing at least a little bit one way or the other :)
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No 'moderate' option? Also, I think 'liberal' and 'conservative' might be better terms here, as I don't consider myself a Republican ;)
Probably. I believe in due caution, but I am very pro-vaccine overall, and I'm a big fan of that 95% prevention rate, but I probably won't get it immediately. Plus, I'm younger, so I probably wouldn't be able to get one for awhile anyway.
Agreed, my stance at the moment is much more "straight ticket for whoever has the best chance of beating the republican" than "straight ticket Democrat" (even if both are 100% accurate if you looked at my ballot).
I'll definitely get the vaccine, at the earliest possible opportunity, though that will likely be a while. I know it seems like they haven't been testing these that long, but each of these vaccines has been given to tens of thousands of people. There's been enough trials with enough people, that if there were going to be any even slightly common serious side-effects, we would have almost certainly seen it by now.
I'm also curious about the partisanship answer, but I'm not expecting to see a large effect on this website. Also I'm really hoping that the lame-duck president's desperate attempts to take credit for any and all vaccine success will mitigate partisan effects some.
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I also have concerns about the speed of vaccine development and testing. I'm a "yes" anyway. It will be months before I make it to the top of the priority list. If it appears safe at that point, I will get the vaccine so I can feel comfortable traveling and spending time with family and friends again.
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I’m getting that vaccine the minute it’s my turn!
I’m an old lefty, but it’s not my politics that influence that decision, it’s all the scientists in my family.
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I should add, that when asked this same question a few months ago, I was hedging enormously based on what would happen with the safety data, perceived influence of political pressure on the speed/decisions, etc. I think lots of fears about this process warranted a wait and see approach a few months ago. Now, however, we've waited and seen, and by all accounts no meaningful corners were cut in terms of testing the vaccine's safety.
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I’m getting that vaccine the minute it’s my turn!
I’m an old lefty, but it’s not my politics that influence that decision, it’s all the scientists in my family.
Maybe you're a lefty because you believe in science?
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I'll be getting it, most probably. However, I also have a lot of allergies and I read that two of the British people who received the Pfizer vaccine have had allergic reactions so they've urged caution for allergic types, like me.
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I specifically wanted to see if politics affected choice which was why I don't have moderate options. I have edited to change to liberal and conservative.
That really doesn't explain why you eliminated a whole swath of the political spectrum.
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Now, however, we've waited and seen, and by all accounts no meaningful corners were cut in terms of testing the vaccine's safety.
Can you tell me what sort of longevity testing was done for the various coronavirus vaccines, and how this compares with regular vaccine development?
(While I understand the reasoning behind cutting this corner, it is a rather glaring omission made in terms of testing the vaccine's safety to make the claim that you did.)
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I'll be getting it.
I'm just used to drugs coming with fucked up risks. This vaccine is probably the least risky thing I'll have injected this year.
I'm far more concerned about the well documented "anything's possible" risks of covid infection.
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From ixtap: That really doesn't explain why you eliminated a whole swath of the political spectrum.
If you are apolitical or forced to get (or not get) the vaccine, then politics are not a factor for you at all. For this poll, I'm only curious about how partisanship might affect our trust in the vaccine.
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I'm skeptical. But I need to GTFO of the US for my sanity for my annual vacation. So I'll be getting it if required for international travel.
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I'm leaning towards waiting to get it in late-spring to early summer. I have international travel planned for the first two weeks of June, so I'd like to have it by then.
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There will be millions vaccinated before it gets to my turn. I'm a bit concerned for my mother, who is in an age group to be fast tracked for vaccination. But as she's "only" 69 and on Medicare so she may have to wait a little bit.
As long as there aren't reports of festering boils on our faces as a side effect, I'll be getting vaccinated. I live very far away from family and I want to see them soon.
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I already have an appointment for later this month and am point person for the employee vaccination clinic at my full time hospital.
I work a high exposure healthcare job and I am so, so tired. Not just working extra, but tired of sickness and death.
Left as hell, but that is not a factor in my decision making.
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They mentioned it may not be recommended for pregnant women. We cannot forget the wonder drug Thalidomide that caused missing limbs on babies back in the 1950's.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/sep/01/thalidomide-scandal-timeline
I hope pregnant women hold off taking the drug till after they give birth.
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I don’t understand your post. It’s listed as a contraindication for receiving the vaccine.
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I will get it the moment I'm allowed and promptly visit the family I haven't seen all year.
I'm a molecular biologist and share a campus with some of the country's top academic COVID experts. That's a stronger driver than my politics, although you can probably approximate my politics from the same information.
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I think we will all be 'forced' to take the vaccine.
Want your kid to go to school... Vaccine, want to walk into the school building...Vaccine
Want to travel via Airplane...Vaccine. Want to go into any government building...Vaccine.
I think the powers to be will make it very very VERY hard to have a 'normal' life if you do not have this Vaccine.
I need more data before I make the decision if I or my kid will have this vaccine.
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I'd be first in line but I'm low risk and have a history of severe allergic reaction, so we'll see when I finally get one.
Want to travel via Airplane...Vaccine.
Possibly, almost like Yellow Fever today but with more destinations requiring it.
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From ixtap: That really doesn't explain why you eliminated a whole swath of the political spectrum.
If you are apolitical or forced to get (or not get) the vaccine, then politics are not a factor for you at all. For this poll, I'm only curious about how partisanship might affect our trust in the vaccine.
Moderate is not equal to apolitical.
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I think we will all be 'forced' to take the vaccine.
Want your kid to go to school... Vaccine, want to walk into the school building...Vaccine
Want to travel via Airplane...Vaccine. Want to go into any government building...Vaccine.
I think the powers to be will make it very very VERY hard to have a 'normal' life if you do not have this Vaccine.
I need more data before I make the decision if I or my kid will have this vaccine.
What sort of data? The sort of data that career scientists who have spent decades studying to make this exact decision are looking at this week?
I think it's worth mentioning that anti-vaxxer sentiment is high enough, and combined with the huge amount of covid-denier/conspiracy, this puts the incentives for the FDA in direction of being MUCH more cautious in approving this than they logically should be if it were just a question of whether this will save lives. They have to take into account that any serious side effects, no matter how rare, will put huge swaths of people off from taking ANY vaccine, and cost huge amounts of lives for years to come. I see absolutely no reason to doubt anything the FDA approves. And Canada and the UK, which I trust plenty, have already approved the Pfizer vaccine.
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I am a rationalist married to a rationalist pharmacist. I am pro-science. Having said that, I would want to wait and see what the potential long-term impacts are. This was a rush job, at least felt like one. I want to see more details on the long-term impacts on different racial gene pools (I am not white). I guess by the time I get my number in line, it will be another year anyway so hopefully it would be clear by then.
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I am a rationalist
at least felt like one
Hmmm.
EDIT: I think that feeling cautious is a natural, even correct, reaction. I am glad we demand transparency and evidence from our government, and a bit of distrust is crucial to that. I just also think we should be honest about when we're acting on feelings instead of data.
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I think we will all be 'forced' to take the vaccine.
Want your kid to go to school... Vaccine, want to walk into the school building...Vaccine
Want to travel via Airplane...Vaccine. Want to go into any government building...Vaccine.
I think the powers to be will make it very very VERY hard to have a 'normal' life if you do not have this Vaccine.
I need more data before I make the decision if I or my kid will have this vaccine.
What sort of data? The sort of data that career scientists who have spent decades studying to make this exact decision are looking at this week?
The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
I think it's worth mentioning that anti-vaxxer sentiment is high enough, and combined with the huge amount of covid-denier/conspiracy, this puts the incentives for the FDA in direction of being MUCH more cautious in approving this than they logically should be if it were just a question of whether this will save lives. They have to take into account that any serious side effects, no matter how rare, will put huge swaths of people off from taking ANY vaccine, and cost huge amounts of lives for years to come. I see absolutely no reason to doubt anything the FDA approves. And Canada and the UK, which I trust plenty, have already approved the Pfizer vaccine.
This is a weird statement to make. Earlier you argued that we need to place our faith in science. Now I'm hearing an argument that fear of political pressure (from anti-vax people) changes the way that science is done . . . which fundamentally misunderstands the whole scientific process.
At the end of the day we have a process for producing vaccines. This process has been shortcut to give us a vaccine faster for covid. A huge amount of effort and testing has been done on the coronavirus vaccines to make them as safe as possible. The vaccine is as safe as we can make it right now. We are missing out on some testing data that normally would have be done though.
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I am a rationalist married to a rationalist pharmacist. I am pro-science. Having said that, I would want to wait and see what the potential long-term impacts are. This was a rush job, at least felt like one. I want to see more details on the long-term impacts on different racial gene pools (I am not white). I guess by the time I get my number in line, it will be another year anyway so hopefully it would be clear by then.
One year is going to make you confident in the LONG TERM impacts? How is that rational?
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I am a rationalist married to a rationalist pharmacist. I am pro-science. Having said that, I would want to wait and see what the potential long-term impacts are. This was a rush job, at least felt like one. I want to see more details on the long-term impacts on different racial gene pools (I am not white). I guess by the time I get my number in line, it will be another year anyway so hopefully it would be clear by then.
One year is going to make you confident in the LONG TERM impacts? How is that rational?
One year (and likely millions of doses handed) more than doubles the data we have about long term impacts. It increases the distribution data size by orders of magnitude. It will also increase our understanding of the risks related to covid, so better able to compare and contrast both.
Don't you think that this all improves confidence?
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I am a rationalist married to a rationalist pharmacist. I am pro-science. Having said that, I would want to wait and see what the potential long-term impacts are. This was a rush job, at least felt like one. I want to see more details on the long-term impacts on different racial gene pools (I am not white). I guess by the time I get my number in line, it will be another year anyway so hopefully it would be clear by then.
One year is going to make you confident in the LONG TERM impacts? How is that rational?
One year (and likely millions of doses handed) more than doubles the data we have about long term impacts. It increases the distribution data size by orders of magnitude. It will also increase our understanding of the risks related to covid, so better able to compare and contrast both.
Don't you think that this all improves confidence?
I think it improves confidence in long term side affects... but irrationally. We won't know the long term affects in a year, just like we don't know the long term affects of COVID currently. Not much time has elapsed. It's possible that I have a different perspective on what long term means with respect to a vaccine. It's also possible that somehow short term results can give long term confidence when large numbers are involved? Honestly, not sure. Just seems weird to say that someone will have confidence in something long term after one year. Why not 11 months? Why not 4 years?
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I am a rationalist married to a rationalist pharmacist. I am pro-science. Having said that, I would want to wait and see what the potential long-term impacts are. This was a rush job, at least felt like one. I want to see more details on the long-term impacts on different racial gene pools (I am not white). I guess by the time I get my number in line, it will be another year anyway so hopefully it would be clear by then.
One year is going to make you confident in the LONG TERM impacts? How is that rational?
One year (and likely millions of doses handed) more than doubles the data we have about long term impacts. It increases the distribution data size by orders of magnitude. It will also increase our understanding of the risks related to covid, so better able to compare and contrast both.
Don't you think that this all improves confidence?
I think it improves confidence in long term side affects... but irrationally. We won't know the long term affects in a year, just like we don't know the long term affects of COVID currently. Not much time has elapsed. It's possible that I have a different perspective on what long term means with respect to a vaccine. It's also possible that somehow short term results can give long term confidence when large numbers are involved? Honestly, not sure. Just seems weird to say that someone will have confidence in something long term after one year. Why not 11 months? Why not 4 years?
Confidence isn't binary. It increases over time with evidence. 2 years is much better than under 1 year for confidence.
I think you're confusing confidence with certainty here. We won't be able to say that the vaccine is safe with certainty for a very long time.
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Yeah, a year is not “long term”.
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I think we will all be 'forced' to take the vaccine.
Want your kid to go to school... Vaccine, want to walk into the school building...Vaccine
Want to travel via Airplane...Vaccine. Want to go into any government building...Vaccine.
I think the powers to be will make it very very VERY hard to have a 'normal' life if you do not have this Vaccine.
I need more data before I make the decision if I or my kid will have this vaccine.
What sort of data? The sort of data that career scientists who have spent decades studying to make this exact decision are looking at this week?
The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
I think it's worth mentioning that anti-vaxxer sentiment is high enough, and combined with the huge amount of covid-denier/conspiracy, this puts the incentives for the FDA in direction of being MUCH more cautious in approving this than they logically should be if it were just a question of whether this will save lives. They have to take into account that any serious side effects, no matter how rare, will put huge swaths of people off from taking ANY vaccine, and cost huge amounts of lives for years to come. I see absolutely no reason to doubt anything the FDA approves. And Canada and the UK, which I trust plenty, have already approved the Pfizer vaccine.
This is a weird statement to make. Earlier you argued that we need to place our faith in science. Now I'm hearing an argument that fear of political pressure (from anti-vax people) changes the way that science is done . . . which fundamentally misunderstands the whole scientific process.
At the end of the day we have a process for producing vaccines. This process has been shortcut to give us a vaccine faster for covid. A huge amount of effort and testing has been done on the coronavirus vaccines to make them as safe as possible. The vaccine is as safe as we can make it right now. We are missing out on some testing data that normally would have be done though.
"Science" isn't a thing, and there's no way to put faith in it. There's only people and their collected knowledge, methodologies and interests.
I'm simply talking about the incentives to the FDA because I think they're important. The truth is the question they're answering is a different question than "Should I, Cangelosi Brown, take this vaccine." They're asking a question closer to "Will American society be better or worse if we approve this vaccine," although it's a much more nuanced ethical version of that than my extremely simplified utilitarian reduction.
For example the fact that you will likely feel pretty lousy for a day or two after the vaccine is given very little weight by the FDA. You might give it more weight than that.
If the FDA's incentives were hugely pushed in the direction of "approve anything because so many people are dying that any possible side-effects are meaningless in context," which is what I think a lot of people are assuming, based on the responses here and elsewhere, then that might lead me to a different personal decision. I might decide to skip it for a while and just wear a mask and avoid people for a while longer.
But, and this is just my supposition, the FDA's incentives are in the opposite direction of that. They're overweighting individual safety when they make this decision, because of external factors such as anti-vaxxers. So I see no reason why their decision to approve nationally wouldn't be well above my threshold to approve it personally (i.e. taking it)
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Yeah, a year is not “long term”.
I feel like this is a question we have a ton of data on that is nearly completely transferable from other vaccines. Has there ever been a vaccine that had effects that weren't immediately apparent? There might be, but I'm certainly not aware of it. There's vaccines with a risk of infection (some polio vaccines), there's nearly always a risk of auto-immune stuff (eg guillain barre), but those are both apparent very quickly. If we have decades and decades of data on vaccine safety that have no suggestion that long-term consequences are an issue for this sort of thing (and all vaccines are basically the exact same sort of thing), then I don't think it's something we need to worry much about here.
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I wish you had an option for moderate, because liberals and conservatives are both crazy people right now.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
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What do posters who want additional testing time think should happen with the control group? I heard questioning on the radio that maybe they would be discouraged from getting the vaccine in order to remain the control group. That sounds bit cold now that vaccines will be going out to all front line workers.
I think it's easy for the people in the control group to figure out if they did or did not receive the vaccine (antibody testing, looking over their reactions to the vaccination).
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
"In Massachusetts, the Moderna vaccine design took all of one weekend."
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html)
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
"In Massachusetts, the Moderna vaccine design took all of one weekend."
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html)
Except not really. That's like me spinning up a new embedded Linux system in a weekend and acting like I wrote the whole kernel from scratch. We spent the last 100 years building those tools.
Anyway, if you don't want an mRNA vaccine wait for the conventional and I'll happily take your mRNA dose.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
Many vaccines have been developed and not approved for general distribution. That's a dishonest argument though because you're comparing apples and oranges. Didn't think that this would be required to add, but by 'developed a vaccine' I mean 'developed a vaccine that was approved for general distribution'.
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I will definitely be getting the vaccine. I didn't vote, however, because "liberal" is not what I am at all, though I do lean left.
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I put probably (conservative). I won't have the option of getting it for quite a long time due to it being done in phases in my province, with "healthy young adults" being second to last in line for vaccination after about ten other categories. It will be about four or five months before it's even an option, and I'll be paying attention to how it's going for other people during that time, with regards to side effects, effectiveness, etc.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
Many vaccines have been developed and not approved for general distribution. That's a dishonest argument though because you're comparing apples and oranges. Didn't think that this would be required to add, but by 'developed a vaccine' I mean 'developed a vaccine that was approved for general distribution'.
I don't follow your logic, at all. Please elaborate.
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I'll be getting the vaccine ASAP, but didn't vote because I'm a moderate and neither conservative or liberal. IMO, those labels have lost almost all meaning in the US.
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I'm surprised after 50-60 votes I'm the first one who voted for required.
I would say I lean conservative and would get the vaccine if it were not going to be required by the military. I'm not 100% sure I'll be required, but pretty close. We're required to get annual flu shots and it's tracked down to the individual person and each unit is expected to get to 95%+. I was required to get a yellow fever vaccine to go to Africa and was required to take anti-malaria pills every day as well, so I can't imagine this will be any different.
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/11/politics/white-house-fda-chief-approve-covid-vaccine-resign/index.html
well - this doesn't exactly inspire confidence
Washington (CNN)White House chief of staff Mark Meadows told Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn he needed to grant an emergency use authorization for Pfizer/BioNTech's coronavirus vaccine by the end of Friday, and if not, he needs to resign, an administration official and a source familiar with the situation tell CNN.
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/11/politics/white-house-fda-chief-approve-covid-vaccine-resign/index.html
well - this doesn't exactly inspire confidence
Washington (CNN)White House chief of staff Mark Meadows told Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn he needed to grant an emergency use authorization for Pfizer/BioNTech's coronavirus vaccine by the end of Friday, and if not, he needs to resign, an administration official and a source familiar with the situation tell CNN.
Yes, there is certainly something to be said for gaining more confidence as more western democracies approve the same vaccines.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
Many vaccines have been developed and not approved for general distribution. That's a dishonest argument though because you're comparing apples and oranges. Didn't think that this would be required to add, but by 'developed a vaccine' I mean 'developed a vaccine that was approved for general distribution'.
I don't follow your logic, at all. Please elaborate.
Should be pretty straight forward.
The SARS-CoV-1 vaccine was never fully developed. It didn't pass all stages of testing and was not approved for general use in humans. Development time for it can't fairly be compared with the development time for the coronavirus vaccines that are being released to people on a very large scale right now.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
Many vaccines have been developed and not approved for general distribution. That's a dishonest argument though because you're comparing apples and oranges. Didn't think that this would be required to add, but by 'developed a vaccine' I mean 'developed a vaccine that was approved for general distribution'.
I don't follow your logic, at all. Please elaborate.
Should be pretty straight forward.
The SARS-CoV-1 vaccine was never fully developed. It didn't pass all stages of testing and was not approved for general use in humans. Development time for it can't fairly be compared with the development time for the coronavirus vaccines that are being released to people on a very large scale right now.
So what? How does that matter for counting years of development if they used all the information and techniques that they developed and then used them to deliver it to a slightly different protein payload?
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/11/politics/white-house-fda-chief-approve-covid-vaccine-resign/index.html
well - this doesn't exactly inspire confidence
Washington (CNN)White House chief of staff Mark Meadows told Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn he needed to grant an emergency use authorization for Pfizer/BioNTech's coronavirus vaccine by the end of Friday, and if not, he needs to resign, an administration official and a source familiar with the situation tell CNN.
You beat me to it. They really need to keep politics out of this.
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A few days ago I was a definite yes. Now, I am waiting to see if I'm an "unsafe", as I carry an epi pen (bee sting allergy) and it seems like the Pfizer vax would be out for me based on the European rules. I will need to see the rules for the various versions.
DH is military and we are assuming it will be both required and also likely very early in the roll-out.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
Many vaccines have been developed and not approved for general distribution. That's a dishonest argument though because you're comparing apples and oranges. Didn't think that this would be required to add, but by 'developed a vaccine' I mean 'developed a vaccine that was approved for general distribution'.
I don't follow your logic, at all. Please elaborate.
Should be pretty straight forward.
The SARS-CoV-1 vaccine was never fully developed. It didn't pass all stages of testing and was not approved for general use in humans. Development time for it can't fairly be compared with the development time for the coronavirus vaccines that are being released to people on a very large scale right now.
So what? How does that matter for counting years of development if they used all the information and techniques that they developed and then used them to deliver it to a slightly different protein payload?
There are two important aspects of development for a vaccine:
- does it work
- is it safe
The information and techniques previously used helped achieve the first part very quickly . . . but cannot be used to guarantee the second. The only way we have to do that is real world testing. It's not really possible to use testing done for a different vaccine that never received authorization for any kind of widespread distribution.
To answer 'so what?' - the hang up right now is not 'does the vaccine work'. All evidence points to 'yes' at the moment. The concern is about safety of the vaccine. Previous unqualified vaccine work in a similar field doesn't really help us with that.
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The sort of data that career scientists who have spend decades studying don't currently have because nobody has it because we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before and had to cut some of the safety practices we usually perform to do so.
You can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before. Specifically, there was SARS-CoV-1 vaccine data being published in 2012 and AFAIK it was used as a basis for the Oxford vaccine. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035421
Many vaccines have been developed and not approved for general distribution. That's a dishonest argument though because you're comparing apples and oranges. Didn't think that this would be required to add, but by 'developed a vaccine' I mean 'developed a vaccine that was approved for general distribution'.
I don't follow your logic, at all. Please elaborate.
Should be pretty straight forward.
The SARS-CoV-1 vaccine was never fully developed. It didn't pass all stages of testing and was not approved for general use in humans. Development time for it can't fairly be compared with the development time for the coronavirus vaccines that are being released to people on a very large scale right now.
So what? How does that matter for counting years of development if they used all the information and techniques that they developed and then used them to deliver it to a slightly different protein payload?
There are two important aspects of development for a vaccine:
- does it work
- is it safe
The information and techniques previously used helped achieve the first part very quickly . . . but cannot be used to guarantee the second. The only way we have to do that is real world testing. It's not really possible to use testing done for a different vaccine that never received authorization for any kind of widespread distribution.
To answer 'so what?' - the hang up right now is not 'does the vaccine work'. All evidence points to 'yes' at the moment. The concern is about safety of the vaccine. Previous unqualified vaccine work in a similar field doesn't really help us with that.
Which is why I clearly stated that "[y]ou can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before." I think that even the regulatory agencies would agree with you which is why they are only granting emergency authorization.
If fact, if anyone wants to say "I'll take the vaccine the second that it gets full approval" I'd consider that an intellectually reasonable and consistent stance.
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Yeah, a year is not “long term”.
I feel like this is a question we have a ton of data on that is nearly completely transferable from other vaccines. Has there ever been a vaccine that had effects that weren't immediately apparent? There might be, but I'm certainly not aware of it. There's vaccines with a risk of infection (some polio vaccines), there's nearly always a risk of auto-immune stuff (eg guillain barre), but those are both apparent very quickly. If we have decades and decades of data on vaccine safety that have no suggestion that long-term consequences are an issue for this sort of thing (and all vaccines are basically the exact same sort of thing), then I don't think it's something we need to worry much about here.
There was a rotavirus vaccine (for babies) that was approved and then pulled off the market around 1990 or so? And there was a vaccine of some sort for cats in the late 80s that caused tumors?
But again, that’s a good long time ago and a lot has improved in vaccine development and testing.
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Yeah, a year is not “long term”.
I feel like this is a question we have a ton of data on that is nearly completely transferable from other vaccines. Has there ever been a vaccine that had effects that weren't immediately apparent? There might be, but I'm certainly not aware of it. There's vaccines with a risk of infection (some polio vaccines), there's nearly always a risk of auto-immune stuff (eg guillain barre), but those are both apparent very quickly. If we have decades and decades of data on vaccine safety that have no suggestion that long-term consequences are an issue for this sort of thing (and all vaccines are basically the exact same sort of thing), then I don't think it's something we need to worry much about here.
There was a rotavirus vaccine (for babies) that was approved and then pulled off the market around 1990 or so? And there was a vaccine of some sort for cats in the late 80s that caused tumors?
But again, that’s a good long time ago and a lot has improved in vaccine development and testing.
The first US Chickenpox vaccine was approved then pulled, but I believe that it was never pulled in many countries.
I was wrong. It was commercially available in 1984 but wasn't approved in the USA until 1995.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine
FWIW chicken pox killed 100+ kids per year in the USA so delaying approval for 11 years had a real cost (besides my scars).
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I'm surprised after 50-60 votes I'm the first one who voted for required.
I would say I lean conservative and would get the vaccine if it were not going to be required by the military. I'm not 100% sure I'll be required, but pretty close. We're required to get annual flu shots and it's tracked down to the individual person and each unit is expected to get to 95%+. I was required to get a yellow fever vaccine to go to Africa and was required to take anti-malaria pills every day as well, so I can't imagine this will be any different.
Quite honestly, I think it should be required, but I didn't vote that, because I know that bozos on the right would immediately start threatening to overthrow the government bla bla bla and it would all be even more of a giant damn shitshow than it already is. We are too dumb for our own good.
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Which is why I clearly stated that "[y]ou can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before." I think that even the regulatory agencies would agree with you which is why they are only granting emergency authorization.
If fact, if anyone wants to say "I'll take the vaccine the second that it gets full approval" I'd consider that an intellectually reasonable and consistent stance.
Development continues until a product is deemed ready for market. The SARS-CoV-1 vaccine failed to complete development as it was never deemed ready for market. The coronavirus vaccine has completed development as it has been deemed ready for the market (albeit by altering the rules for what an acceptable product is regarding vaccine safety).
It sounds like you're arguing that they're both in development because the coronavirus vaccine only has emergency authorization for use and thus comparable. If so, I think I understand where you're coming from - even if I disagree with your definition.
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Which is why I clearly stated that "[y]ou can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before." I think that even the regulatory agencies would agree with you which is why they are only granting emergency authorization.
If fact, if anyone wants to say "I'll take the vaccine the second that it gets full approval" I'd consider that an intellectually reasonable and consistent stance.
Development continues until a product is deemed ready for market.
I completely agree. But if you buy a Mk2 Ford Focus, didn't it start development whenever the Mk1 was in R&D?
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Which is why I clearly stated that "[y]ou can argue that the clinical safely trials were rushed but you can not argue that we've never developed a vaccine this quickly before." I think that even the regulatory agencies would agree with you which is why they are only granting emergency authorization.
If fact, if anyone wants to say "I'll take the vaccine the second that it gets full approval" I'd consider that an intellectually reasonable and consistent stance.
Development continues until a product is deemed ready for market.
I completely agree. But if you buy a Mk2 Ford Focus, didn't it start development whenever the Mk1 was in R&D?
That's a totally arbitrary line that depends on where you happen to be musing when you decide to draw it.
The Mk 2 Ford Focus began development when the combustibility of gasoline was discovered. Or when the model-T started assembly line production. Or when seatbelts and airbags became standard equipment in cars. Or when the Ford Escort was built. Pick any - they're all equally wrong.
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The Mk 2 Ford Focus began development when the combustibility of gasoline was discovered. Or when the model-T started assembly line production. Or when seatbelts and airbags became standard equipment in cars. Or when the Ford Escort was built. Pick any - they're all equally wrong.
You are right. Putting the SARS-CoV-2 protein payload in the SARS-CoV-1 vaccine that Oxford was already working on is like adding a new engine to the Focus Mk1 lineup.
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Yes I will get it, but I'll probably wait a while before doing so.
From what I've heard here, approval by the TGA is likely to be still a few months away (the Government is saying likely March). No need for an emergency authorisation here in Aus as we're not seeing hundreds/thousands of deaths per day.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-12-04/uk-coronavirus-rollout:-what-does-it-mean-for-australia/12946414
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-02/health-minister-greg-hunt-britain-approval-pfizer-vaccine/12944440
Once it's approved, obviously there'll be priority groups that'll need the vaccine first, so I'll be well down the list.
Maybe mid 2021? Depends on whether I want to travel overseas or not.
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Yeah, a year is not “long term”.
I feel like this is a question we have a ton of data on that is nearly completely transferable from other vaccines. Has there ever been a vaccine that had effects that weren't immediately apparent? There might be, but I'm certainly not aware of it. There's vaccines with a risk of infection (some polio vaccines), there's nearly always a risk of auto-immune stuff (eg guillain barre), but those are both apparent very quickly. If we have decades and decades of data on vaccine safety that have no suggestion that long-term consequences are an issue for this sort of thing (and all vaccines are basically the exact same sort of thing), then I don't think it's something we need to worry much about here.
There was a rotavirus vaccine (for babies) that was approved and then pulled off the market around 1990 or so? And there was a vaccine of some sort for cats in the late 80s that caused tumors?
But again, that’s a good long time ago and a lot has improved in vaccine development and testing.
The first US Chickenpox vaccine was approved then pulled, but I believe that it was never pulled in many countries.
I was wrong. It was commercially available in 1984 but wasn't approved in the USA until 1995.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine
FWIW chicken pox killed 100+ kids per year in the USA so delaying approval for 11 years had a real cost (besides my scars).
So, my kids were born in the 80s and 90s and a lot of my experience with childhood vaccines comes from that era as a result. The big question about the chicken pox vaccine was whether it would be as effective over the long run as natural immunity would be, and that had to be balanced out against the economic cost of a disease that was usually quite mild but meant that kids had to be at home for two weeks.
Our pediatrician said, at the time, that he recommended the vaccine to families where it would be a hardship to have someone stay home for two weeks (however many times it took to run through all the kids) but suggested waiting to see if the kids got it naturally otherwise and then vaccinate when they went to school. That feels relevant to the discussion at present in that there are things to balance out. Most kids who were really sick with chicken pox had pre existing immune issues, and he absolutely recommended the vaccine in that case.
As it happened my kids all got chicken pox naturally and did not end up being immunized.
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I am in the vaccine trial. I may have already received it, but won't know for a couple weeks yet (or longer). I am a conservative who is Never Trump.
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I totally misunderstood the poll, but yes I will get the vaccine at the first opportunity*.
Also today I got my antibody test back. Apparently I have had covid, and really had no clue!
I mean I guess I will get the vaccine when there is a nice stock pile but I would imagine I have some level of protection and being mostly young and healthy I have no need of it in 2021.
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Hard to define "liberal" or "conservative" for an international audience, though, since what would qualify as a liberal in the US would likely be quite far to the right in Sweden.
Nevertheless, I'll be getting it, when I get a chance. Won't be for a while though.
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Hard to define "liberal" or "conservative" for an international audience, though, since what would qualify as a liberal in the US would likely be quite far to the right in Sweden.
You might be surprise to talk to some liberals in the USA. Eg, I'm a Scottish National Party member, which puts me well to the left of Biden. However, I was just arguing with some people tonight about how no, I don't want a full on French Revolution style revolution and neither should they.
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Hard to define "liberal" or "conservative" for an international audience, though, since what would qualify as a liberal in the US would likely be quite far to the right in Sweden.
You might be surprise to talk to some liberals in the USA. Eg, I'm a Scottish National Party member, which puts me well to the left of Biden. However, I was just arguing with some people tonight about how no, I don't want a full on French Revolution style revolution and neither should they.
Yeah the problem is that "liberal" is used for anything from Biden to Bernie. The "liberal" party in Sweden is a right-of-center party...
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But there are some real conservatives in Sweden these days, by anyone’s definition.
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Yes...I should probably have made it a US only poll.
It's interesting that (even very early in this poll) those who lean left seem more likely to trust the vaccine than those who lean right. I realize the sample size of this poll is very small, and this forum population is likely more educated/more successful/more likely to trust scientists than the population at large. Has anybody seen a similar poll of the US population to see if the trend is the same?
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Hard to define "liberal" or "conservative" for an international audience, though, since what would qualify as a liberal in the US would likely be quite far to the right in Sweden.
You might be surprise to talk to some liberals in the USA. Eg, I'm a Scottish National Party member, which puts me well to the left of Biden. However, I was just arguing with some people tonight about how no, I don't want a full on French Revolution style revolution and neither should they.
Yeah the problem is that "liberal" is used for anything from Biden to Bernie.
So are “socialist” and “communist.”
In fact, talk to most Trump supporters, and you’ll find that all three terms are interchangeable. :P
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Independent so I did not vote.
I will take the vaccine when it is made available as I really do not have a choice. And I suspect that will be in the spring round due to the nature of my work.
My employer is already working with legal counsel to see if they can mandate vaccination or how they can require it.
Even if they do not succeed at being able to mandate it as soon as it is available to me they will expect me to go back to working the way I did in the past traveling 2 - 3 days a week to remote locations working in confined spaces with people who refuse to wear masks and will likely refuse vaccination. (We have had entire sites get covid)
So my choices would be
- Go back to how it used to be with a vaccination and take the risk of the vaccine
- Go back without a vaccine and risk covid
- Quit or refuse to go and get fired (might be an option as my fire date is oct 2021)
In addition to the work aspect we love to travel and I expect some places will mandate vaccination to enter (I could see cruise ships requiring it to board). And let’s be honest if you are going to travel internationally it is going to take a long time before covid is under control across the world and I do not want to travel to a place where I could contract it without being vaccinated.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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"Democrats are more willing than Republicans, 75% to 50%, to get the COVID-19 vaccine."
http://https://abcnews.go.com/Health/americans-increasingly-covid-19-vaccine-poll/story?id=74632280
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I'm with @ixtap, @Kris, and @WhiteTrashCash. I vote with my brain, not by party affiliation. Therefore, no place in this poll for me.
I believe I had it in mid-March, so I will not be elbowing anyone out of line to get "my" dose. I'll get it when it's my turn.
One benefit of this group having an engineering/science bent is that there seems to be less anti-vaxxing sentiment in favor of belief in, you know, actual science. I see we have a glaring exception voicing opinions on this thread. To that person, and persons of similar beliefs, I say, "Welcome! Please feel free to hang out here and learn."
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As a UK person it is hard to comprehend how this is a political thing. If I had to be categorised, I would call myself a moderate, but I lean slightly left on some issues and slightly right on others. None of this has anything to do with COVID.
Having seen a fit and healthy work colleague of DW, same age as me (50s) catch COVID, almost die and suffer life-changing side effects (minor stroke while being ventilated) I will take the vaccine as soon as it is offered without a second thought.
(I was an engineer, so definitely a science bent in my case.)
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I not going to lie, at first I was a definite "yes" but the first two issues that popped up (severe allergies and bells palsy) are both in my household. Scares the crap out of me. That said, I want my parents who are in their sixties and have some comorbidities to get it asap. I'm hoping by summer when it will most likely be available to me and my family one of the versions will be safer for our specific issues.
As for long term implications.. I'm willing to take the risk. No comment on the politics as I generally focus on things within my control and fighting those type battles is a waste of energy and bandwidth for me.
Edited to add that I heard on CNBC that 40%+ of front line health workers in New Jersey's health system don't want the vaccine (as of last week). Not sure what to make of that....
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I not going to lie, at first I was a definite "yes" but the first two issues that popped up (severe allergies and bells palsy) are both in my household. Scares the crap out of me. That said, I want my parents who are in their sixties and have some comorbidities to get it asap. I'm hoping by summer when it will most likely be available to me and my family one of the versions will be safer for our specific issues.
As for long term implications.. I'm willing to take the risk. No comment on the politics as I generally focus on things within my control and fighting those type battles is a waste of energy and bandwidth for me.
Edited to add that I heard on CNBC that 40%+ of front line health workers in New Jersey's health system don't want the vaccine (as of last week). Not sure what to make of that....
The Moderna and Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccines will be online soon. So there will be options.
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I'm slightly left-leaning and a solid no, at the moment. Studies, so far, have not tested likelihood of reducing asymptomatic spread, rather, only reduce likelihood of severe illness. I am not at risk of severe illness (young, healthy) and seeing as there is no known "greater good" in getting vaccinated, I'll pass. The risks of vaccination outweigh the risks of covid, in my case (MTHFR gene mutation, which generally doesn't play well with toxins and the like).
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I know little about vaccines or their development but I have followed with interest our friend @nippycrisp’s journal.
He FIREd from the pharmaceutical industry, participated in a vaccine trial, and used his journal to explain to us laypeople how the mRNA vaccine works and his confidence in it.
A thing he notes that I found interesting is that a lot of the time it takes for other vaccines to be developed is simply waiting for large numbers of people to be naturally exposed to a disease to see if the vaccine provides protection. In this case there are so many places like the US where it is spreading like wildfire that this step was greatly shortened as compared to prior vaccines.
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I'm a right-leaning moderate and I will most likely get the vaccine. My employer hasn't made a determination on if it will be a requirement for employment but I suspect it will - they already require flu shots and up to date immunizations for the usual childhood illnesses. Given that there are limited supplies and I'm in a low-risk demographic, I'll wait in the back of the line for others that need it more. I do have some concerns on the accelerated testing cycle but not enough to stop me from taking it.
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I'll take the vaccine as soon as it's offered to me. Given my age and lack of health issues I assume that won't be until the late-summer or fall.
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I'm slightly left-leaning and a solid no, at the moment. Studies, so far, have not tested likelihood of reducing asymptomatic spread, rather, only reduce likelihood of severe illness. I am not at risk of severe illness (young, healthy) and seeing as there is no known "greater good" in getting vaccinated, I'll pass. The risks of vaccination outweigh the risks of covid, in my case (MTHFR gene mutation, which generally doesn't play well with toxins and the like).
It's called the M*****F***** gene for a good reason.
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I'm passing on the Vaccine for now.... Sorry, but we've never been able to develop a safe RNA vaccine yet, but in the last 6 months we've hit the jackpot and developed one that has a 95% effective rate that is supposedly safe, but no animal trials to back it up... Just look at the history of Vaccines that humans have gotten wrong and all the autoimmune conditions they have caused as a by product. I'm by no means an anitvaxer either. Just this one seems way to rushed to have gotten right on the first try. Also before I'd even consider a vaccine I'd want an antibody test to see if I already carry the antibodies. If I do why do I or anyone else that has the antibodies need a vaccine?
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I know little about vaccines or their development but I have followed with interest our friend @nippycrisp’s journal.
He FIREd from the pharmaceutical industry, participated in a vaccine trial, and used his journal to explain to us laypeople how the mRNA vaccine works and his confidence in it.
A thing he notes that I found interesting is that a lot of the time it takes for other vaccines to be developed is simply waiting for large numbers of people to be naturally exposed to a disease to see if the vaccine provides protection. In this case there are so many places like the US where it is spreading like wildfire that this step was greatly shortened as compared to prior vaccines.
I read that too.
There was discussion of the Astra/Oxford vaccine on uk tv last night and the Oxford vaccine group person said that it was likely that the FDA would want to see the results of the USA trial first before approving.The interviewer asked if that would cause a significant delay, the interviewee said no, there are so many infections that the trial can be really quick so it will only delay a few weeks rather than many months.
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Yeah, I got the Moderna vaccine on August 2nd as part of the Phase 3. Checked my antibodies a couple of weeks ago and am positive for anti-Covid IgGs (the more persistent species, as opposed to the IgMs naturally infected people tend to throw off). My SO also received the vaccine in August, with the same result.
I wasn't a hardcore immunologist, but I've worked in the space quite a bit (neuroinflammation and transplantation biology) and have experience with some of the same technologies that makes mRNA-based vaccines possible. Given this familiarity, it was an absolute no-brainer for me to participate in the clinical trial and (as it worked out) skip the line.
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Yeah, I got the Moderna vaccine on August 2nd as part of the Phase 3. Checked my antibodies a couple of weeks ago and am positive for anti-Covid IgGs (the more persistent species, as opposed to the IgMs naturally infected people tend to throw off). My SO also received the vaccine in August, with the same result.
I wasn't a hardcore immunologist, but I've worked in the space quite a bit (neuroinflammation and transplantation biology) and have experience with some of the same technologies that makes mRNA-based vaccines possible. Given this familiarity, it was an absolute no-brainer for me to participate in the clinical trial and (as it worked out) skip the line.
I know little about vaccines or their development but I have followed with interest our friend @nippycrisp’s journal.
He FIREd from the pharmaceutical industry, participated in a vaccine trial, and used his journal to explain to us laypeople how the mRNA vaccine works and his confidence in it.
A thing he notes that I found interesting is that a lot of the time it takes for other vaccines to be developed is simply waiting for large numbers of people to be naturally exposed to a disease to see if the vaccine provides protection. In this case there are so many places like the US where it is spreading like wildfire that this step was greatly shortened as compared to prior vaccines.
I'll heartily 'second' folks taking a peek into Mr. Crisp's journal. First, for some nice science-based discussion around the vaccines and then second - you might get a kick out of some of the stories if you flip back a few pages.
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If I can get it at my doctors office or at the pharmacy then yes, I will get it. If Joe Exotic is administering it via murder hornet then no, I won't.
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Can someone post a link to Mr. Crisp's journal? I can't seem to find it. It would be good to educate myself on the latest technology.
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I will probably get it once it is fully FDA approved, not just for emergency use. I am in a low-risk group.
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Can someone post a link to Mr. Crisp's journal? I can't seem to find it. It would be good to educate myself on the latest technology.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/the-final-year/msg2752940/#msg2752940 (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/the-final-year/msg2752940/#msg2752940)
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I'm slightly left-leaning and a solid no, at the moment. Studies, so far, have not tested likelihood of reducing asymptomatic spread, rather, only reduce likelihood of severe illness. I am not at risk of severe illness (young, healthy) and seeing as there is no known "greater good" in getting vaccinated, I'll pass. The risks of vaccination outweigh the risks of covid, in my case (MTHFR gene mutation, which generally doesn't play well with toxins and the like).
I've heard of the lack of data regarding spreading. From all indications this vaccine is making your body an unfavorable place for the virus to be, it doesn't make sense to me that the vaccine would be suspected of doing nothing to reduce the spread.
Are there examples of vaccines or vaccine candidates that are effective against viruses, but don't reduce transmission? Are STD medicines examples of treatments that reduce the illness but don't prevent transmission? Is this just a case of scientists being cautions?
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What do posters who want additional testing time think should happen with the control group? I heard questioning on the radio that maybe they would be discouraged from getting the vaccine in order to remain the control group. That sounds bit cold now that vaccines will be going out to all front line workers.
Is it an ethical requirement in a medical trial that if the early data shows strong benefit of the treatment (and in this case, the data was strong enough for the EUA apply), the placebo arm must be unblinded and offered a chance to receive the treatment.
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I'm slightly left-leaning and a solid no, at the moment. Studies, so far, have not tested likelihood of reducing asymptomatic spread, rather, only reduce likelihood of severe illness. I am not at risk of severe illness (young, healthy) and seeing as there is no known "greater good" in getting vaccinated, I'll pass. The risks of vaccination outweigh the risks of covid, in my case (MTHFR gene mutation, which generally doesn't play well with toxins and the like).
I've heard of the lack of data regarding spreading. From all indications this vaccine is making your body an unfavorable place for the virus to be, it doesn't make sense to me that the vaccine would be suspected of doing nothing to reduce the spread.
Are there examples of vaccines or vaccine candidates that are effective against viruses, but don't reduce transmission? Are STD medicines examples of treatments that reduce the illness but don't prevent transmission? Is this just a case of scientists being cautions?
As far as I can gather there is simply no data about whether a vaccinated person can still pass the virus on, so the scientists are being cautious. I don't blame them given that any scientific speculation is blown up way out of proportion by the hysterical media.
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Are there examples of vaccines or vaccine candidates that are effective against viruses, but don't reduce transmission? Are STD medicines examples of treatments that reduce the illness but don't prevent transmission? Is this just a case of scientists being cautions?
One of the pertussis vaccines is an example. I can't remember if it was TDaP or DTaP. It's a bacteria though rather than a virus. It gets marketed as a way to protect babies so it's given a lot of households with babies and pregnant women in addition to children. I remember reading in the studies that were done they didn't find any evidence it prevents transmission. This was at least as of about 10 years ago when I last looked into it. I don't know if there any anything else more current.
FWIW I lean liberal but I also read a lot in the medical space. I have some hesitancy with both the new technology and with our inability to develop good corona virus vaccines in general. For example there were a lot of negative side effects with the MERS and SARS ones. I'm a bit skeptical we hit the winning combination twice so quickly (Pfizer and Moderna).
I want to see more of the trial data and other write ups that will start coming through the medical journals soon. I read the Moderna trial data from the previous trial and I found a few concerns. There were a lot of serious side effects with the higher dose. I still haven't see anything about how the trials were designed to test for some of the serious reactions we found in the SARS and MERS trials in the animal phases. I believe the animal testing was skipped with both of these if i remember correctly.
There are still many unknowns at this time like transmission, how long it might last, etc. My risk isn't that high (younger, healthy, work from home, etc.) so even if it were available I would be waiting a bit until I can get more detailed information.
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I'm enrolled in a phase 3 clinical trial for a vaccine (not pfizer or moderna) that will start in next month, but I'd get it regardless.
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What do posters who want additional testing time think should happen with the control group? I heard questioning on the radio that maybe they would be discouraged from getting the vaccine in order to remain the control group. That sounds bit cold now that vaccines will be going out to all front line workers.
Is it an ethical requirement in a medical trial that if the early data shows strong benefit of the treatment (and in this case, the data was strong enough for the EUA apply), the placebo arm must be unblinded and offered a chance to receive the treatment.
OK, so I got a message from the sponsors of the Moderna trial a few days ago. They say that once they get approval, volunteers are to be unblinded. Those who got the placebo are going to be offered the vaccine in the next 1-2 weeks.
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Those who got the placebo are going to be offered the vaccine in the next 1-2 weeks.
Excellent.
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I read a lot of material regarding mRNA and understood how it is implemented. Now I feel safe to take the vaccine. I am ready to take it whenever it is my turn.
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I will take it as soon as it is available to me. I think we are damn lucky that mRNA was already in development when the pandemic broke out.
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I will take it as soon as it is available to me. I think we are damn lucky that mRNA was already in development when the pandemic broke out.
Yes. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.
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Already got it. :)
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I specifically wanted to see if politics affected choice which was why I don't have moderate options. I will edit to change to liberal and conservative.
Ah, that's fair. I guess most people swing at least a little bit one way or the other :)
This is my exact opinion, as well.
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I hated having to pick liberal or conservative.....
I'm in the camp of probably, more because it'll be required for travel than a strong desire to get it. My wife and I are under 40 with generally good health now. I want as much data as possible on the vaccine compared to a virus now with more than a year of data showing almost no risk of fatality to my age group. Additionally, once the older and high risk people get it, the moral hazard of me spreading the virus goes away.
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I will say that I am looking forward to Biden taking over at the end of the month, because Trump has done a very poor job of spurring manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine in the United States. We were supposed to distribute 20 million doses by the end of December and we aren't anywhere close to that because Trump has been involved in his quixotic crusade to overturn the election results.
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I hated having to pick liberal or conservative.....
I'm in the camp of probably, more because it'll be required for travel than a strong desire to get it. My wife and I are under 40 with generally good health now. I want as much data as possible on the vaccine compared to a virus now with more than a year of data showing almost no risk of fatality to my age group. Additionally, once the older and high risk people get it, the moral hazard of me spreading the virus goes away.
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The moral hazard diminishes; it does not go away, given that young and healthy people do die, they do suffer, and they do have permanent or long-term damage to their bodies.
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I hated having to pick liberal or conservative.....
I'm in the camp of probably, more because it'll be required for travel than a strong desire to get it. My wife and I are under 40 with generally good health now. I want as much data as possible on the vaccine compared to a virus now with more than a year of data showing almost no risk of fatality to my age group. Additionally, once the older and high risk people get it, the moral hazard of me spreading the virus goes away.
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The moral hazard diminishes; it does not go away, given that young and healthy people do die, they do suffer, and they do have permanent or long-term damage to their bodies.
There will be some high risk people who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons. But also, a 95% efficacy vaccine still fails one time in twenty. You could still easily kill a high risk person with covid . . . even if they have been vaccinated. We need to vaccinate as many people as possible to achieve herd immunity protections. You can't rely only upon the efficacy of the vaccine.
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Yes. I can’t wait.
I did have some theoretical concerns but once the data god the EUA was released most of those concerns were alleviated. No untoward autoimmune responses (Covid itself can definitely trigger autoimmune disorders). Minimal ingredients. There is a small risk of allergic reaction so if you have a history of anaphylaxis you should definitely wait. People with multiple drug allergies should definitely wait as this might be a hidden reaction to polyethylene glycol, a common ingredient, which is also present in small amounts in the vaccine. Otherwise the vaccine is very clean (no adjuvants or preservatives) and looks to be very effective (Moderna and Pfizer; Astra Zeneca has lower effectiveness but still adequate).
I work in healthcare and have seen first hand what this virus can do. What most people don’t realize is that even mild to moderate outpatient cases have a 10-20% chance if causing long term consequences. So far in my practice I’ve seen outpatient Covid trigger: hearing loss, diabetes, new onset asthma, severe Long Covid symptoms with incapacitating fatigue and cognitive issues for 10 months, orchitis (inflammation of the testicles which can lead to sterility ) etc. AND these were not severe cases, never seen in the ER.
My niece is an ECMO nurse treating ventilated Covid patients and she has seen 19 year olds die of Covid.
Take it seriously. Get the vaccine when it’s your turn, not just to protect yourself but to protect your neighbors and help us get back to normal life.
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Update. Got the J&J, side effects were awful. Day after was really bad, recovered in about a week. Probably similar to COVID at my age group, but without the tail risk
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I have one friend who got really sick from J&J, but most of the other people I know were fine.
I just had Moderna#1. My arm felt like somebody punched me really hard. Fortunately that only lasted 2 days. I'm a little concerned about shot #2...
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@Omy for sure felt like I had been frogged a bunch of times after my moderna. Second was a bit worse and lasted longer than the first one, but nothing some OTC painkillers couldn’t manage.
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I have one friend who got really sick from J&J, but most of the other people I know were fine.
I just had Moderna#1. My arm felt like somebody punched me really hard. Fortunately that only lasted 2 days. I'm a little concerned about shot #2...
My wife and I both got hit bad. Maybe it was the batch?
12 hours afterwards for her, 15 hours for me. I was shaking uncontrollably at midnight shivering, took 30min to muster up the energy to get out of bed and head to the advil. Was semi-functional but I could feel the shakes coming after I got five hours away from a dose. The fatigue during the next day felt like I had the most exciting St. Patricks Day of my life....even though I only got a shot.
The way I describe it was it felt like I ran a marathon, drank a ton, then got into a fight all in the same day...and I've not really done any of those three things!
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Oh goodness! I'm assuming my second shot will be like 2 days of the flu. DH and I are getting it at the same time so I'm hoping one of us can take care of the other. If not, I'll have food, snacks, gatorade and movies ready to go.
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My partner and I recently got our second Pfizer shot. I had absolutely zero side effects - not even a sore arm. She was horribly sick for 2 days, and was wiped out after walking 3 miles 6 days after that second dose. She's run a marathon and works out *hard* for 1-2 hours 6 days a week normally, so for her to still be struggling to do more than walk a week after the shot is tough to see. We're still both happy we got the vaccine so early and would do it again even knowing about these side effects, but this has been a really rough week.
I would suggest people in the U.S. who have side effects consider reporting them at the government website:
https://vaers.hhs.gov/
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Got the Pfizer - first shot - severe brain fog, chills and fever overnight and basically worthless the next day - extremely tired and arm really hurt. Slept 12 hours straight.
Second shot - no brain fog, but chills and low-grade fever overnight and felt sore muscles and tired the next day - overall much milder side effects.
Arm hurt more the second time though, still lasted no more than two days.
So relieved to be fully vaccinated. I expect there will be boosters and shots geared toward whatever variants crop up globally for at least two years.
I'm old but never did the annual flu shots but while a flu virus there was no way I was taken any chances with covid- it is simply on another deadly level.
I did not participate in the poll - this has nothing to do with politics - the virus is not political it will kill you no matter whether you are purple with green spots , a flaming liberal or a stock conservative deeply grounded in the church. Dead is dead - 500,000 plus.
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^Moderna is already testing a modified vaccine for the B.1.351 variant. I expect a booster every year may be the new normal.
After being sent a link that initially led to nowhere, I tried again today and managed to schedule my first (only?) shot on April 7th -- not sure which flavor I will get. Unlike some other areas, there is still no sign of increasing cases here & there were no deaths in the county over the last 7 days.
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Just as an update (uk); had AZ three weeks ago (age 59). Slightly sore arm for 2 weeks, and a day of feeling faintly seedy.
Very pleased to finally have some extra ability to fight back if I get exposed now.
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
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My partner and I recently got our second Pfizer shot. I had absolutely zero side effects - not even a sore arm. She was horribly sick for 2 days, and was wiped out after walking 3 miles 6 days after that second dose. She's run a marathon and works out *hard* for 1-2 hours 6 days a week normally, so for her to still be struggling to do more than walk a week after the shot is tough to see. We're still both happy we got the vaccine so early and would do it again even knowing about these side effects, but this has been a really rough week.
I would suggest people in the U.S. who have side effects consider reporting them at the government website:
https://vaers.hhs.gov/
When I got my shot there was a brochure with a QR code to sign up for a mobile version of that. I basically got a text message every day for about a week after each shot asking about various symptoms and rating the severity (mile, moderate, severe). With the first Moderna shot it was just a sore arm for about two days and a mild headache and fatigue the first day. The second shot it was a moderate to severe headache for about 36 hours along with a mild fever (about 100) and some chills the first night that made for a pretty terrible night sleeping (woke up too hot and too cold probably 6-7 times).
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I was in the AZ US trials, and although I had zero side effects, I really thought I was vaccinated (had a 2/3 chance). Day before my school district did a mass vax event, I was unblinded and SURPRISE! Placebo.
Got my first dose of Pfizer the next day and had a really sore arm, that's it. Get 2nd dose in 9 days.
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I got the 2nd Moderna shot last Saturday. Holy Cats! I was sick/achy all day Sunday and semi-sick/achy Monday-Thursday. Thought I turned a corner and then BAM, my temp spiked to 102.4 for hours last night, even with Tylenol and two ice packs on my head and neck. I think I'm one of "those people". Would rather have shot side effects than Covid. No regrets.
I've read that those with Type A blood have a harder time with Covid. Could this also be the case with the shot? Dr. Google is no help figuring that out.
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I have had both Pfizer doses and only had a sore arm the day of the first dose. The next day it was fine.
Second dose I had a slight sore spot at the injection site. Other than that, no symptoms. I'm still waiting for the 14 days afterwards for the vaccine to be fully developed or whatever it does in 14 days.
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
Absolutely - the placebo effect is very real. But I'm not going to suggest to my partner who was knocked on her back with just about every symptom I've heard of that it was all in her head. The vomiting, fever, severe fatigue, joint pain, and shortness of breath were real whether they were due to the placebo effect or from some "real" (not sure what word to use there) reaction her body had to the vaccine. The effect was the same - she was as sick as I've seen her in 25 years. Fortunately she's mostly better now (8 days later) other than exercising at a lower level of intensity than normal.
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
Absolutely - the placebo effect is very real. But I'm not going to suggest to my partner who was knocked on her back with just about every symptom I've heard of that it was all in her head. The vomiting, fever, severe fatigue, joint pain, and shortness of breath were real whether they were due to the placebo effect or from some "real" (not sure what word to use there) reaction her body had to the vaccine. The effect was the same - she was as sick as I've seen her in 25 years. Fortunately she's mostly better now (8 days later) other than exercising at a lower level of intensity than normal.
Sure.
But when I get the vaccine, if I have a reaction, I will be cognizant of the fact that it may be the placebo effect.
I wouldn’t tell someone else that specifically, because feelings. But I have no problem reminding myself.
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
I appreciate the reminder.
I've never had a vaccine reaction in my life and went to sleep comfortably 12 hours after the shot. 15 hours later I wake up shaking uncontrollably.
It's all in my head, right?
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There are certain symptoms that I could totally buy as possibly being psychosomatic . . . mild headache, fatigue, maybe shortness of breath or mild joint pain. It's really hard for me to imagine someone throwing up without cause though. :P
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My mother's partner had a side effect that I never heard of: in addition to some fatigue and a little achiness, he actually lost his sense of taste for two days! I googled it and apparently it's rare, but possible, as a side effect.
As for me, I just had moderate fatigue the day after the 2nd shot, plus a slight cold feeling during the night that made me sleep poorly. It was like the opposite of the placebo effect-- I was sitting around waiting for the chills/fever/body aches, and none of it ever occurred. Just felt kind of run down and tired. My DH had fatigue and a nagging headache for a day. Although placebo effect is certainly a real thing and I've experienced it myself, I assume these effects were just our bodies mounting an immune response to the vaccine.
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Kris's comment prompted me to look at the data on side effects. The Guardian has a great article on it, and there are graphs there that I'm not going to try to figure out how to reproduce that help visualize what I'm going to present textually below. I'm not sure how to use the table feature so my formatting won't be very nice. I'm using the Pfizer 2nd shot data because that's what we got.
Data come from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/18/covid-vaccine-side-effects-pfizer-moderna-johnson-is-it-safe
Side Effect------Placebo group------Vaccine group-----%increase
Pain (inj. site)------12%-------------------78%---------------550%
Fatigue--------------23%-------------------52%---------------126%
Headache-----------24%-------------------52%---------------117%
Muscle Pain---------8%--------------------37%---------------363%
Chills-----------------4%---------------------35%--------------775%
Joint Pain-----------5%---------------------22%---------------340%
Fever-----------------1%--------------------16%---------------1500%
Diarrhea-------------8%---------------------10%--------------25%
Swelling-------------0.2%-------------------6.3%-------------3050%
Skin Redness--------1%--------------------6%---------------500%
Vomiting-------------1%----------------------2%--------------100%
I typed this all in manually, so there might be errors - check the link above if you want to verify. Keep in mind we're dealing with very small sample sizes, so we can't make very definitive assessments of the strength of the placebo effect here, but it is clear to me that the vaccine likely does cause side effects but that the placebo effect can be significant.
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Signed up for my 1st dose!! Later in April, not sure which vaccine.
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I got my 2nd dose Pfizer vaccine yesterday. Almost 21 hours later, I don't have any symptoms. My arm soreness is also very little. I guess I got a little lucky. OTOH, DW suffered chills and body aches starting at about 8hrs after the vaccine and lasting for about 15 hours or so.
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Got my first Pfizer injection last Wednesday. My arm was a little sort for a day, then it was fine. I had no other reactions at all, and I'll be excited to go back for the second dose is a couple of weeks.
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Took my first pfizer shot. Not in a risk group but work for an essential manufacturing business that got our own bottles and refrigerator
Arm was sore, but the day before was bench press day, so I can’t really say if it was from the shot or from that.
I don’t really like to talk about politics anymore
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Got my second Pfizer dose today. So far all is well!
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NO
But I didn't check either of the survey.
I'm a political agnostic.
I'm waiting to see the results of the pending oral vaccine trials.
I don't like needles - and it sounds like there will be 'refresher' vaccines needed, about yearly.
I live very carefully and I'm low risk.
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NO
But I didn't check either of the survey.
I'm a political agnostic.
I'm waiting to see the results of the pending oral vaccine trials.
I don't like needles - and it sounds like there will be 'refresher' vaccines needed, about yearly.
I live very carefully and I'm low risk.
Same here. I'm pretty untrusting of anything the federal government is pushing very hard.
I guess if they force it on us to fly commercial at some point I may?
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There are certain symptoms that I could totally buy as possibly being psychosomatic . . . mild headache, fatigue, maybe shortness of breath or mild joint pain. It's really hard for me to imagine someone throwing up without cause though. :P
Seriously? I can throw up if I think about feeling sick for a while.
The mind/body connection is strong.
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Tuesday coming!
My neighbourhood is a high priority area for vaccination. I have no idea which one I will get and I don't care. A friend of my DD's is an EMT and doing vaccinations, she says they don't know what they are getting until it shows up. Here it is most likely to be Moderna or Pfizer, the AZ is going to pharmacies (no pharmacies in my area have anything).
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There are certain symptoms that I could totally buy as possibly being psychosomatic . . . mild headache, fatigue, maybe shortness of breath or mild joint pain. It's really hard for me to imagine someone throwing up without cause though. :P
Seriously? I can throw up if I think about feeling sick for a while.
The mind/body connection is strong.
I've thrown up four times in my entire life. They're actually all very distinct memories. (And looking back it seems that my impulse control score can't be very good.)
- Once it happened after six year old GuitarStv first tried Kraft Dinner and then proceeded to eat it until it wouldn't go down any more
- Once after 20 year old GuitarStv discovered Guinness and proceeded to drink it until it wouldn't go down any more
- Once it happened after 26 year old GuitarStv decided that he was too hungry to wait any longer for that chicken to cook.
- Once it happened after 28 year old GuitarStv had a chicken sub from subway that tasted a little funny . . . but was too hungry to care at the time.
That's all of 'em. (I supposed it's possible that I vomited as an infant as well . . . but everyone I know seems to have suppressed memories of that time - and for the better I say.)
I've broken both ankles, both wrists, my nose several times, 6/10 knuckles on my hands, my jaw, lost close to a square foot of skin in a cycling accident, had a couple concussions . . . and 'sick enough to vomit' is by far the most uncomfortable I've ever felt. The idea of being able to just make yourself do it is so very strange to me.
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Well, I get motion sickness. Usually I can either stop what I am doing or mitigate the response other ways, but if I turned myself in circles a couple of times and then focused on that nauseous feeling in my stomach I would throw up. I can definitely see that being as much of a mind game as any other placebo effect symptom.
I have my vaccine appt tomorrow! I'm not expecting trouble with the first dose. I'm hoping I do ok with the second one, but now I'm worried I'll talk myself into placebo effect symptoms anyway...
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Surprisingly, I have my first Pfizer dose scheduled for Saturday morning.
I registered with our local mass vax site thinking (since I'm a healthy 29yo with no conditions and employment isn't considered 'frontline') that it would be months before I'd get a chance, but they have a huge number of slots available for Pfizer. My thought is that they've already worked through the entire backlog of priority folks on their list, and now are just scheduling anyone to keep the train rolling.
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There are certain symptoms that I could totally buy as possibly being psychosomatic . . . mild headache, fatigue, maybe shortness of breath or mild joint pain. It's really hard for me to imagine someone throwing up without cause though. :P
Seriously? I can throw up if I think about feeling sick for a while.
The mind/body connection is strong.
I've thrown up four times in my entire life. They're actually all very distinct memories. (And looking back it seems that my impulse control score can't be very good.)
- Once it happened after six year old GuitarStv first tried Kraft Dinner and then proceeded to eat it until it wouldn't go down any more
- Once after 20 year old GuitarStv discovered Guinness and proceeded to drink it until it wouldn't go down any more
- Once it happened after 26 year old GuitarStv decided that he was too hungry to wait any longer for that chicken to cook.
- Once it happened after 28 year old GuitarStv had a chicken sub from subway that tasted a little funny . . . but was too hungry to care at the time.
That's all of 'em. (I supposed it's possible that I vomited as an infant as well . . . but everyone I know seems to have suppressed memories of that time - and for the better I say.)
I've broken both ankles, both wrists, my nose several times, 6/10 knuckles on my hands, my jaw, lost close to a square foot of skin in a cycling accident, had a couple concussions . . . and 'sick enough to vomit' is by far the most uncomfortable I've ever felt. The idea of being able to just make yourself do it is so very strange to me.
If you throw up on the first day of PE in 7th grade, they never make you run around the track in the heat again.
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I had the first Pfizer dose back on 3/12. Overnight I had chills for about 4 hours. Woke up in the morning with fatigue/body aches that lasted most of the day. Also developed a slight fever very briefly. As for the injection site pain, it was what I say the equivalent is of being punched in the arm hard.
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There are certain symptoms that I could totally buy as possibly being psychosomatic . . . mild headache, fatigue, maybe shortness of breath or mild joint pain. It's really hard for me to imagine someone throwing up without cause though. :P
Seriously? I can throw up if I think about feeling sick for a while.
The mind/body connection is strong.
I've thrown up four times in my entire life. They're actually all very distinct memories. (And looking back it seems that my impulse control score can't be very good.)
- Once it happened after six year old GuitarStv first tried Kraft Dinner and then proceeded to eat it until it wouldn't go down any more
- Once after 20 year old GuitarStv discovered Guinness and proceeded to drink it until it wouldn't go down any more
- Once it happened after 26 year old GuitarStv decided that he was too hungry to wait any longer for that chicken to cook.
- Once it happened after 28 year old GuitarStv had a chicken sub from subway that tasted a little funny . . . but was too hungry to care at the time.
That's all of 'em. (I supposed it's possible that I vomited as an infant as well . . . but everyone I know seems to have suppressed memories of that time - and for the better I say.)
I've broken both ankles, both wrists, my nose several times, 6/10 knuckles on my hands, my jaw, lost close to a square foot of skin in a cycling accident, had a couple concussions . . . and 'sick enough to vomit' is by far the most uncomfortable I've ever felt. The idea of being able to just make yourself do it is so very strange to me.
Maybe it's hard for you to imagine vomiting easily, but some of us have a hair trigger for it. Yes it's wildly unpleasant, and no, I never get used to it, but it still happens, and I'm probably no rarer with my sensitive stomach than you are with your apparent goat stomach.
Vomiting is absolutely a possible placebo effect, almost anything is because most symptoms are reactions of the body to something. The body can easily be triggered to react in a very real way to a neurological stimulus brought on by a psychological perspective. It's a mistake to assume that because something is caused by placebo that it will be more minor. In the medical world, we are taught to respect and fear the placebo. It's often more powerful than our treatments. For good or bad.
The brain tells the body what to do, so placebo is not some mild minor effect. It doesn't have less magnitude.
I've personally seen some wild physiological effects from needle phobia.
Have you never heard of Broken Heart Syndrome? Being upset can literally kill you.
ETA: apparently I'll be called for my vaccine appointment shortly.
I always have a horrible reaction to vaccines, which could be placebo, but overblown immune reactions are common to my illness as well. Regardless, I'm prepared for a rough ride for a few days.
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I didn't answer the poll but I did get both shots (Moderna) thru the VA. Second was about a week ago and no side effects except "Moderna Arm/Covid Arm" ( huge hand sized swollen achy red itchy hot welt like an infection at the injection site - Google the images) a couple of days after the second shot. Mostly gone now but was initially concerned I had been injected with a dirty needle and had a bad infection that was spreading fast. The Google Gods told me otherwise.. My political beliefs didn't factor into whether or not to get the vaccine 'cause ... Science!
Likewise, my political beliefs never factored into my decision either. As a toxicologist and pharmacologist working in viral testing, my decision to not get the vaccine is based entirely on my scientific understanding of both the known and unknown risks, balanced by my perceived benefits of vaccination. Risk/benefit analysis.
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Likewise, my political beliefs never factored into my decision either. As a toxicologist and pharmacologist working in viral testing, my decision to not get the vaccine is based entirely on my scientific understanding of both the known and unknown risks, balanced by my perceived benefits of vaccination. Risk/benefit analysis.
@Laserjet3051 Does your decision apply to both the J&J vaccine as well as the mRNA ones?
This is not my field of expertise and I'm not an early adopter of anything. I'm looking for the J&J one since it's older tech with more of a history. Wondering if that's reasonable.
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Likewise, my political beliefs never factored into my decision either. As a toxicologist and pharmacologist working in viral testing, my decision to not get the vaccine is based entirely on my scientific understanding of both the known and unknown risks, balanced by my perceived benefits of vaccination. Risk/benefit analysis.
@Laserjet3051 Does your decision apply to both the J&J vaccine as well as the mRNA ones?
This is not my field of expertise and I'm not an early adopter of anything. I'm looking for the J&J one since it's older tech with more of a history. Wondering if that's reasonable.
Like the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, the J&J (Janssen) vaccine also utilizes a gene therapy modality of immunogen delivery. However, Moderna/Pfizer vaccines employ an mRNA mode of delivery whereas the J&J vaccine results in SARS-CoV-2 spike protein production via a replication-incompetent adenovirus. Neither the mRNA or adenoviral vector will integrate into the human genome. Both technologies have been been used in laboratory settings for quite a long time. Clinically, adenovirus has more of a history than mRNA-based strategies, but not much more. I too, am not an early adopter of anything, I'll wait a while to better understand the long term safety profile of these vaccines and then re-evaluate the risk/benefit profile at such time.
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
I appreciate the reminder.
I've never had a vaccine reaction in my life and went to sleep comfortably 12 hours after the shot. 15 hours later I wake up shaking uncontrollably.
It's all in my head, right?
It’s not a value judgment. People who get a placebo effect aren’t weak-minded.
In one trial, there were four people who spiked fevers of up to 104.
Two of them had been given the placebo.
You had a reaction. It may not have been due to any active ingredient in the shot. But the reaction was real.
Edit: I say this as a person who got my first dose of Pfizer two days ago. I felt fatigue, nausea, and muscle aches, yesterday and today. This may or may not have been due to any active ingredient in the shot.
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Mr. SP got his first dose yesterday - Pfizer. He's fine - a slight headache last night, and that was it. Not even a sore arm. I get mine on Thursday - I'm hoping to get off as easy as he did. It will also likely be Pfizer - that is what our health unit has on hand.
I didn't answer the poll. because politics do not factor into this for me.
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I'm getting my first dose next week. I didn't answer the poll because even though I'm a liberal, public health shouldn't be subject to partisan politics. That's how we ended up with 560,000 dead of COVID in a year.
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My wife and I have gotten both Moderna doses. We got the second one about 3 weeks ago. We had zero side effects except for a sore arm for a day or two.
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I'm getting my first dose next week. I didn't answer the poll because even though I'm a liberal, public health shouldn't be subject to partisan politics. That's how we ended up with 560,000 dead of COVID in a year.
It shouldn't be. When I started the poll, I was curious if Trump had poisoned his constituents against the vaccine. The only people I know who are not getting the vaccine are Trump loyalists.
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I'm getting my first dose next week. I didn't answer the poll because even though I'm a liberal, public health shouldn't be subject to partisan politics. That's how we ended up with 560,000 dead of COVID in a year.
It shouldn't be. When I started the poll, I was curious if Trump had poisoned his constituents against the vaccine. The only people I know who are not getting the vaccine are Trump loyalists.
If that's what you wanted to find out why didn't you phrase it that way? This is a pointless exercise that doesn't prove anything.
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I'd hazard a guess that most discussions on the internet are just interesting anecdota, which this thread has been.
But the overarching question of politics and willingness to get the vaccine has been answered by plenty of technically well done national polls - conservative Republicans are the most likely to say they won't get the vaccine.
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I'll get it eventually, as a WFH young person I haven't really prioritized it though since... I'm about as minimal risk as anyone and it seems silly when there are so many people more at risk.
I think where I live the floodgates are starting to open though.
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I didn't want to skew the poll. When I started this poll in December it seemed that my conservative friends were skeptical of the vaccine and my liberal friends were ready to get jabbed. These poll results are in line with what I've seen IRL. It would be interesting to see if conservatives are generally more likely to avoid new vaccines...or if they are particularly skeptical of THIS vaccine because the former president made such a big deal about covid being a hoax.
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I didn't want to skew the poll. When I started this poll in December it seemed that my conservative friends were skeptical of the vaccine and my liberal friends were ready to get jabbed. These poll results are in line with what I've seen IRL. It would be interesting to see if conservatives are generally more likely to avoid new vaccines...or if they are particularly skeptical of THIS vaccine because the former president made such a big deal about covid being a hoax.
Everyone I know who is skeptical is skeptical because of the timeline on these vaccines, compared to normal timelines.
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I was able to get an earlier slot, so got my shot this morning. The 1 dose J&J.
I have a mild headache, a mild fever, overall feel ok. Arm seems fine. Am parked on the couch with juice and tylenol and books and the occasionally the cat. Except she wants the blanket on me and I don't want the blanket on me, so then she gets mad and stalks off.
And frankly, if everyone is freaking out about how quickly these ones came out, just wait until all the others are converted to this type. No need to use chicken eggs = cheaper, faster processing I suspect.
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I had giraffe-like splotches on my upper arm about 5(?) days after my second Moderna dose. No pain and they went away after a day.
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Got the Pfizer vaccine in December and January. From the tens of thousands of people in the trials, I think we have a good idea that immediate side effects are generally rare. Long term, we don’t have much data, but we don’t have much data on the long-term effects of COVID either. I work in healthcare, so can’t stay home. This gave me the best chance to avoid it myself and avoid passing it to others. It’s not a guarantee, but the best way to get back to normal that we have.
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
I appreciate the reminder.
I've never had a vaccine reaction in my life and went to sleep comfortably 12 hours after the shot. 15 hours later I wake up shaking uncontrollably.
It's all in my head, right?
It’s not a value judgment. People who get a placebo effect aren’t weak-minded.
In one trial, there were four people who spiked fevers of up to 104.
Two of them had been given the placebo.
You had a reaction. It may not have been due to any active ingredient in the shot. But the reaction was real.
Edit: I say this as a person who got my first dose of Pfizer two days ago. I felt fatigue, nausea, and muscle aches, yesterday and today. This may or may not have been due to any active ingredient in the shot.
While I'm not disagreeing that the placebo effect can be strong, I do believe there is probably a lower case of that compared to real side effects when trying a new unknown vaccine. No one knows what to expect - if anything at all - so less likely to have a placebo effects. I know my own "covid arm" seemed to be a totally unexpected and unknown side effect (at least by me and seems somewhat rare) so most likely a "real" side effect from the vaccine. So it's possible most people are experiancing real side effects and I think it's important not to downplay them - especially for a new vaccine.
ETA: Curious to know if anyone else got covid arm/Moderna Arm too. It can be fairly mild or really nasty looking.
On the flip side, the exact same reasons a side effect is more likely are the same reasons a placebo effect are even MORE likely. The more people think it could have unknown side effects, the more placebo effects they'll have. I would actually expect a rather dramatic increase in placebo effects for this over regular flu shots.
Incidentally, I inject myself monthly with a horrible, monstrous drug that hurts like a mutherfucker because it's a very large protein and I always get an angry red splotchy spot. The drug company acknowledges the pain as normal and this redness as a possible occurence, but it's not listed as a side effect, it's considered a normal, harmless physiological response to the injection. Some patients develop ongoing, persistent irritation at the injection site, and this is listed as a side effect, but not if it goes away within something like 48 hrs.
There are side effects, adverse reactions, and normal range physiological responses. It's possible that "covid arm" isnt considered a proper "side effect". But time will tell if it gets categorized as one, because you're right, not all of the side effects are known yet. Then there are injection injuries, which are a whole other category, which I believe make up the largest number of cases of long term damage from vaccines, because some people get sloppy with their injection technique.
However, I see no downside to acknowledging placebo effects. Since a placebo symptom is as real and dangerous as a drug response, the symptom management should be the same: treat appropriately and report to the appropriate healthcare professional. Seek urgent care if needed. Try to manage the distress.
No significant reaction to a drug or vaccine should ever be disregarded, whether the person thinks it's a side effect or placebo effect. The assumption shouldn't in any way affect the way it's handled. Possible side effects shouldn't be dismissed either, but I don't see acknowledging the placebo effect as diminishing the possibility of side effects. They always coexist, they always have, and they always will.
For some reason though, people still seem to be under the misapprehension that placebo effects aren't significant or dangerous.
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A family member got covid arm several days after the first injection. Huge, red welt that was hot and itchy. It took several more days to resolve. She thought it might be an infection, but pictures on the internet made her realize it was just a side effect.
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I know at least 9 people who are not getting the vaccine, and 8 of them are Trump supporters/Republicans. 1 is a more libertarian/both parties are equally bad kind of guy who is into hippie/crunchy stuff.
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That has been my observation as well. Some also follow internet doctors with questionable credentials who tell them that drugs used to worm horses will cure covid so why get a vaccine that might harm you?
I'm a wimp about needles (and would love to have had more data before being vaccinated), but most of the smart people I know are getting vaccinated so I chose to follow suit in order to get back to living a normal life.
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I know at least 9 people who are not getting the vaccine, and 8 of them are Trump supporters/Republicans. 1 is a more libertarian/both parties are equally bad kind of guy who is into hippie/crunchy stuff.
This tracks with the people I know, as well. Of all of those I know who aren't getting the vaccine, everyone is a conservative except for one guy, who is a former Republican and now libertarian. He recently moved to Florida, which has ramped up his echo-chamber-level Covid denialism noticeably.
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Ah, libertarianism . . . the philosophy that depends on the personal responsibility of the common man rather than government regulation to work. Kinda telling that so few of the adherents have enough personal responsibility to even perform the slam dunk of something that both benefits them personally, and society as a whole.
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Ah, libertarianism . . . the philosophy that depends on the personal responsibility of the common man rather than government regulation to work. Kinda telling that so few of the adherents have enough personal responsibility to even perform the slam dunk of something that both benefits them personally, and society as a whole.
Yes, it drives me nuts. Also note that the other 8 I mention above are evangelical Christians...another group you would expect to be into "love your neighbor" stuff enough to get the vaccine, but no.
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DW and I both got the 1st shot over the weekend - Moderna. We were very very lucky to get the appointments. The floodgates opened in CT from 4/1, and getting a vaccine appointment since then has been a miracle.
DW has been complaining incessantly since then about something or the other, nothing too serious (e.g. the last update as of 20 minutes ago is "I am getting sniffles - did you?"), attributing all of that to the shot and blaming me for pretty much dragging her to get the shot. She does that. For my part, I am ganging up with the kids and the dog to mercilessly pull her leg for being a chicken.
I initially felt a bit "weird", dizzy/lightheaded as well as fatigued after the vaccine. That dizziness subsided after a couple of hours, while the fatigue took almost a day to go away. The arm is still pretty sore.
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Next week for me for jab #1! Woo-hoo!
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For those who have gotten “sick” from their vaccine:
Just a reminder that in clinical trials, a lot of the people who had reactions — including those who spiked a fever — were given the placebo.
I appreciate the reminder.
I've never had a vaccine reaction in my life and went to sleep comfortably 12 hours after the shot. 15 hours later I wake up shaking uncontrollably.
It's all in my head, right?
It’s not a value judgment. People who get a placebo effect aren’t weak-minded.
In one trial, there were four people who spiked fevers of up to 104.
Two of them had been given the placebo.
You had a reaction. It may not have been due to any active ingredient in the shot. But the reaction was real.
Edit: I say this as a person who got my first dose of Pfizer two days ago. I felt fatigue, nausea, and muscle aches, yesterday and today. This may or may not have been due to any active ingredient in the shot.
While I'm not disagreeing that the placebo effect can be strong, I do believe there is probably a lower case of that compared to real side effects when trying a new unknown vaccine. No one knows what to expect - if anything at all - so less likely to have a placebo effects. I know my own "covid arm" seemed to be a totally unexpected and unknown side effect (at least by me and seems somewhat rare) so most likely a "real" side effect from the vaccine. So it's possible most people are experiancing real side effects and I think it's important not to downplay them - especially for a new vaccine.
ETA: Curious to know if anyone else got covid arm/Moderna Arm too. It can be fairly mild or really nasty looking.
On the flip side, the exact same reasons a side effect is more likely are the same reasons a placebo effect are even MORE likely. The more people think it could have unknown side effects, the more placebo effects they'll have. I would actually expect a rather dramatic increase in placebo effects for this over regular flu shots.
Incidentally, I inject myself monthly with a horrible, monstrous drug that hurts like a mutherfucker because it's a very large protein and I always get an angry red splotchy spot. The drug company acknowledges the pain as normal and this redness as a possible occurence, but it's not listed as a side effect, it's considered a normal, harmless physiological response to the injection. Some patients develop ongoing, persistent irritation at the injection site, and this is listed as a side effect, but not if it goes away within something like 48 hrs.
There are side effects, adverse reactions, and normal range physiological responses. It's possible that "covid arm" isnt considered a proper "side effect". But time will tell if it gets categorized as one, because you're right, not all of the side effects are known yet. Then there are injection injuries, which are a whole other category, which I believe make up the largest number of cases of long term damage from vaccines, because some people get sloppy with their injection technique.
However, I see no downside to acknowledging placebo effects. Since a placebo symptom is as real and dangerous as a drug response, the symptom management should be the same: treat appropriately and report to the appropriate healthcare professional. Seek urgent care if needed. Try to manage the distress.
No significant reaction to a drug or vaccine should ever be disregarded, whether the person thinks it's a side effect or placebo effect. The assumption shouldn't in any way affect the way it's handled. Possible side effects shouldn't be dismissed either, but I don't see acknowledging the placebo effect as diminishing the possibility of side effects. They always coexist, they always have, and they always will.
For some reason though, people still seem to be under the misapprehension that placebo effects aren't significant or dangerous.
The side effects experienced by the control group also don't have to be placebo effects; they could could have an external cause other than the vaccine. The person may have gotten food poisoning, had another illness, or stared at the sun too long. The chances of me getting a headache in any given week are close to 100%, for example. We'd need baseline rates for those symptoms as well to see how much of it was placebo.
(Unless the above was already accounted for in the study.)
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I've had my first Moderna shot. I had very minor pain at the injection site for 24 hours. A week later, I had COVID arm. It was sore, swollen, and VERY itchy for about two days.
I think the poll is interesting. I agree with many that the vaccine shouldn't be political, but it is. Even in this small poll only 3% of self identified liberals don't plan on ever getting the vaccine. Compare that to the 20% of self identified conservatives that aren't getting it. Whether or not people get the vaccine is very much along party lines. There is a small liberal subset of anti vaxxers, but its largely a conservative movement. This is anecdotal, but out of my office of 30 people, I am the only one getting the vaccine. I'm also the only one who isn't a die hard Trump supporter. They are all solidly in the camp that 1) COVID is just the flu and the death numbers are inflated and 2) The vaccine doesn't work/will give you cancer/is a government tracking chip (yes I really do work with people who think it's a tracking chip).
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A post popped up on my FB feed yesterday about appointments opening up for the next group and the amount of haters was astounding. Everything from poisonous, not FDA approved, Gates, changes your DNA, it's just the flu and on and on. There is a large number of far right people here where I live.
I also talked to my SIL and she knows a young lady (22) that works in healthcare and a nurse advised her not to get it if she ever planned on having kids in the future because it can make you sterile.
I fear we will never reach herd immunity.
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
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My 96 year old friend was reluctant to get it. She's gotten this far in life avoiding any medical care she seems unnecessary. After much persuasion, she got her first jab yesterday. I'm baking her some cookies today.
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I get the 2nd Phizer jab on Monday. Only symptom I had was a sore arm for about 36 hours.
I did feel tired for a few days after, but I’m not sure i could attribute that to the vaccine, or if I was just tired.
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Scheduled for Saturday evening for my 1st round of Pfizer. Kind of a unique situation available for me to get it ahead of when I should. We have a local Tribe who received a certain number of Pfizer doses. Everyone in the tribe who has wanted their vaccine has gotten it, so they have opened up their doses to non-Tribe members in the county with no restrictions. Both me an my wife got in on the availability.
https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/coronavirus/article250475026.html
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2) The vaccine doesn't work/will give you cancer/is a government tracking chip (yes I really do work with people who think it's a tracking chip).
There might be a market for anti-RFID overalls (+ gimme hat).
In camo, of course.
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We lucked up and found a nearby county that had more doses than their mostly conservative citizens required. Their health department offered the extra doses to anyone that asked. DW, DD, her boyfriend, and I all got the second Pitzer shot 2 days ago. We were all in "group five".
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
Also being pedantic - Is authorization for use not approval? They've said that people should use the vaccine.
Approval - the belief that someone or something is good or acceptable.
Emergency use authorization is therefore approval is it not?
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FWIW I was somebody who back in December put "probably" but have now received my first shot. It was before all 3 were released for widespread use, I still had some questions, and I was unsure what supply would actually look like (being last in line). In that time I educated myself on the rigorous trials the vaccines went through, and was lucky enough to score a Moderna vaccine a couple weeks ago with supply being ramped up.
I would like to see the US hit herd immunity (saw the UK is projected to hit it by next week!!) and hopefully as we continue the process and people make informed choices we get more and more shots in arms.
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
Also being pedantic - Is authorization for use not approval? They've said that people should use the vaccine.
Approval - the belief that someone or something is good or acceptable.
Emergency use authorization is therefore approval is it not?
EUA is more-or-less approval. Since the vaccines didn't follow the FDA's "standard" process, they can't be considered fully approved until it clears all that additional red tape. So, EUA until full approval can be conferred.
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/mcm-legal-regulatory-and-policy-framework/emergency-use-authorization#:~:text=The%20Emergency%20Use%20Authorization%20%28EUA%29%20authority%20allows%20FDA,medical%20countermeasures%20%28MCMs%29%20needed%20during%20public%20health%20emergencies. (https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/mcm-legal-regulatory-and-policy-framework/emergency-use-authorization#:~:text=The%20Emergency%20Use%20Authorization%20%28EUA%29%20authority%20allows%20FDA,medical%20countermeasures%20%28MCMs%29%20needed%20during%20public%20health%20emergencies.)
https://www.adventhealth.com/blog/coronavirus-vaccine-eua-vs-fda-approval (https://www.adventhealth.com/blog/coronavirus-vaccine-eua-vs-fda-approval)
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Got my first stab two days ago, Moderna, on a Native American reservation via a part-time job I have that helped me qualify. Had to drive 60 miles to get it, but well worth the road trip and got to listen to MY music loudly with no family in the car. I didn't want to wait until April 19 to become officially eligible with the general population, then scramble for online appointments. Plus, I'm hopping on an airplane in a few weeks, and at least I'll have more protection than having received zero vaccine.
My arm is still a little sore, but that was the only symptom.
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
Also being pedantic - Is authorization for use not approval? They've said that people should use the vaccine.
Approval - the belief that someone or something is good or acceptable.
Emergency use authorization is therefore approval is it not?
If you are using the conversational definition of "approval", then yes, the FDA has approved the use of the drug.
However, in this context, "approval" is a technical term that means that the drug has gone through a formal process and is conferred a specific, legally binding status.
It's the same way that in the medical world, the term "specialist" means having a license in a board recognized area of speciality. So, for example, if a doctor dedicated themselves to one subject matter and only treats that one subject. My hip surgeon, who only treats hips, and is a world leader in hip surgery, cannot be called a hip specialist, because there is no specialty just for hips. He *is* specialized in hips in the conversational sense, but that term would be considered inaccurate in a conversation about medical specialists because the word is co-opted to mean something legally specific, with significant legal implications.
The FDA could revoke the use of any of these vaccines on the basis that they aren't approved. It's a very important distinction, because the process of removing an officially approved drug from market is far more cumbersome than revoking an authorization.
It's not just pedantic, it's a significant legal power that the FDA is retaining.
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
Also being pedantic - Is authorization for use not approval? They've said that people should use the vaccine.
Approval - the belief that someone or something is good or acceptable.
Emergency use authorization is therefore approval is it not?
If you are using the conversational definition of "approval", then yes, the FDA has approved the use of the drug.
However, in this context, "approval" is a technical term that means that the drug has gone through a formal process and is conferred a specific, legally binding status.
It's the same way that in the medical world, the term "specialist" means having a license in a board recognized area of speciality. So, for example, if a doctor dedicated themselves to one subject matter and only treats that one subject. My hip surgeon, who only treats hips, and is a world leader in hip surgery, cannot be called a hip specialist, because there is no specialty just for hips. He *is* specialized in hips in the conversational sense, but that term would be considered inaccurate in a conversation about medical specialists because the word is co-opted to mean something legally specific, with significant legal implications.
The FDA could revoke the use of any of these vaccines on the basis that they aren't approved. It's a very important distinction, because the process of removing an officially approved drug from market is far more cumbersome than revoking an authorization.
It's not just pedantic, it's a significant legal power that the FDA is retaining.
I'm assuming that this lack of legal approval is predicated upon the fact that the covid vaccines have not been fully tested to normal standards (no long term health data)?
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
Also being pedantic - Is authorization for use not approval? They've said that people should use the vaccine.
Approval - the belief that someone or something is good or acceptable.
Emergency use authorization is therefore approval is it not?
If you are using the conversational definition of "approval", then yes, the FDA has approved the use of the drug.
However, in this context, "approval" is a technical term that means that the drug has gone through a formal process and is conferred a specific, legally binding status.
It's the same way that in the medical world, the term "specialist" means having a license in a board recognized area of speciality. So, for example, if a doctor dedicated themselves to one subject matter and only treats that one subject. My hip surgeon, who only treats hips, and is a world leader in hip surgery, cannot be called a hip specialist, because there is no specialty just for hips. He *is* specialized in hips in the conversational sense, but that term would be considered inaccurate in a conversation about medical specialists because the word is co-opted to mean something legally specific, with significant legal implications.
The FDA could revoke the use of any of these vaccines on the basis that they aren't approved. It's a very important distinction, because the process of removing an officially approved drug from market is far more cumbersome than revoking an authorization.
It's not just pedantic, it's a significant legal power that the FDA is retaining.
I'm assuming that this lack of legal approval is predicated upon the fact that the covid vaccines have not been fully tested to normal standards (no long term health data)?
I have no idea the details.
I just know that approval is a specific pathway with a certain sequence of hoops to jump through. Bureaucratic red tape and safety aren't always synonymous.
What the FDA has done, as I understand, is reserve the right to rapidly pull any of the vaccines from the market if they feel they need further testing. If they fully approve them, they can't do that. The process to revoke full approval is extremely cumbersome and can take many, many years.
It took years to remove most of the cox-2 inhibitors from the market, even after it was clear that there were problems with them, because each drug would have had to be proved to be a problem individually. I believe in the end, most of the companies voluntarily took their drugs off the market, but I could be wrong about that.
Either way, in a case where new drugs are being used on almost the entire population, retaining the ability to be nimble in terms of regulation of use is a smart move.
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Got my Pfizer shot this morning.
Normally I feel like I've been run over by a train after my annual flu shot, but I've had no discernable side effects.
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Got my second dose of Pfizer yesterday, so for the time-being I'm officially vaccinated...until I read last night the discussion about a potentially third Pfizer shot being needed, lol
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Got the JnJ one shot last weekend, then they paused it. Awesome. I'm not super worried but it's definitely not a great thing to wake up to it being all over the news.
A couple family members have made snarky comments about "that's why I'm not getting vaccinated". One is super liberal. One is super Republican. Vaccine hesitancy is very real for many reasons other than political affiliation.
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Birth control, smoking, flying on an airplane, and of course COVID-19 infection all carry a much high risk of developing blood clots.
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Birth control, smoking, flying on an airplane, and of course COVID-19 infection all carry a much high risk of developing blood clots.
Not to mention pregnancy, obesity, elective surgery, sitting at a desk all day, etc, etc. That said, not all blood clots are created equally.
But what really matters is what you've already stated, that Covid is far more likely to cause serious blood clots than the vaccine. And the lifetime chances of getting covid are astronomically high.
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Recently became eligible and so scheduled my first shot (Pfizer) for May 4. I have to drive over an hour to get it, but I purposely took that appointment because it's sooner than the one that will be just across town. I had zero reaction to the flu shot in fall, so here's hoping this causes nothing too.
For those who are reluctant because of the speed of development, I heard a doctor give the explanation for it: most vaccines take years because there's a lot of time spent waiting - for grants, for volunteers for trials, etc. And by and large, there is no severe urgency, so things just drag along. Covid vaccines were different in all these respects.
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Recently became eligible and so scheduled my first shot (Pfizer) for May 4. I have to drive over an hour to get it, but I purposely took that appointment because it's sooner than the one that will be just across town. I had zero reaction to the flu shot in fall, so here's hoping this causes nothing too.
For those who are reluctant because of the speed of development, I heard a doctor give the explanation for it: most vaccines take years because there's a lot of time spent waiting - for grants, for volunteers for trials, etc. And by and large, there is no severe urgency, so things just drag along. Covid vaccines were different in all these respects.
Also, the underlying technology/science already existed. We didn't invent the space shuttle, fill it, and launch it in this time. We just created the payload for the shuttle that was already basically designed and waiting to be filled up with the gadgets we wanted it to deliver.
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Recently became eligible and so scheduled my first shot (Pfizer) for May 4. I have to drive over an hour to get it, but I purposely took that appointment because it's sooner than the one that will be just across town. I had zero reaction to the flu shot in fall, so here's hoping this causes nothing too.
For those who are reluctant because of the speed of development, I heard a doctor give the explanation for it: most vaccines take years because there's a lot of time spent waiting - for grants, for volunteers for trials, etc. And by and large, there is no severe urgency, so things just drag along. Covid vaccines were different in all these respects.
Also, the underlying technology/science already existed. We didn't invent the space shuttle, fill it, and launch it in this time. We just created the payload for the shuttle that was already basically designed and waiting to be filled up with the gadgets we wanted it to deliver.
Makes me wonder what other diseases we could do this for but there's not enough money / interest in developing it?
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Recently became eligible and so scheduled my first shot (Pfizer) for May 4. I have to drive over an hour to get it, but I purposely took that appointment because it's sooner than the one that will be just across town. I had zero reaction to the flu shot in fall, so here's hoping this causes nothing too.
For those who are reluctant because of the speed of development, I heard a doctor give the explanation for it: most vaccines take years because there's a lot of time spent waiting - for grants, for volunteers for trials, etc. And by and large, there is no severe urgency, so things just drag along. Covid vaccines were different in all these respects.
Also, the underlying technology/science already existed. We didn't invent the space shuttle, fill it, and launch it in this time. We just created the payload for the shuttle that was already basically designed and waiting to be filled up with the gadgets we wanted it to deliver.
Makes me wonder what other diseases we could do this for but there's not enough money / interest in developing it?
Uh...most of them.
The vast majority of illnesses aren't common enough to be worth researching. As anyone with a rare illness (ie: me), there is virtually NO treatment research because we're not a lucrative enough market, so we just get to die young.
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The vaccine doesn't work/will give you cancer/is a government tracking chip (yes I really do work with people who think it's a tracking chip).
This is a particularly dumb conspiracy theory. If Bill Gates actually had the motivation, money, and technological power to put a nanotech tracking chip in the vaccine... he wouldn't have to put it in a vaccine. Everyone would have one in them already.
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I got my first dose of Moderna last week. I got the listed side-effects: soreness in the area of injection (more painful and lasting than the flu shot... I'd say a level above the tetanus aftereffects), fatigue and on-and-off headaches. I think I may have had slight cotton-mouth too. Also felt hungry at but didn't want to eat...
Not looking forward to the second dose and being laid up for 1-2 days after :(
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I follow @nippycrisp’s journal. He worked in the pharmaceutical industry as a PhD scientist type and has discussed in detail how the vaccines work, how they were developed, how the trials were run, etc. He participated in one of the trials as well. As he described, the reason why these trials went so quickly is because Covid has been spreading like wildfire, especially in the US. This means the waiting time for people to be exposed in the wild was much shorter than for the development of other vaccines.
Imagine you built a nerf gun and you need to fire it 500 times in a row to determine whether it is reliable enough to mass produce and sell in toy stores. Your qualification program to determine whether it is a quality nerf gun design goes a lot faster if you can pull the trigger ever second (US) versus every hour (Taiwan/Singapore/Korea/New Zealand). We got our vaccines tested quickly because our country has been a writhing mass of infection for the past year.
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Oh yeah, and we got appointments for our first jab tomorrow. Woo hoo!
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not FDA approved
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine. (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda#:~:text=Yes.,receive%20a%20COVID%2D19%20vaccine.)
The FDA carefully evaluated and analyzed the safety and effectiveness data for all COVID-19 vaccines and determined that all of the available data for each vaccine provides clear evidence that the known and potential benefits outweigh the known and potential risks of each vaccine’s use.
I mean, you can't fight utterly crazy Bill Gates conspiracies . . . but the FDA has been pretty clear on their approval and say so on their website. :P
The FDA has not approved any vaccines for covid; they have merely issued emergency use authorizations.
/pedantic comment
Also being pedantic - Is authorization for use not approval? They've said that people should use the vaccine.
Approval - the belief that someone or something is good or acceptable.
Emergency use authorization is therefore approval is it not?
If you are using the conversational definition of "approval", then yes, the FDA has approved the use of the drug.
However, in this context, "approval" is a technical term that means that the drug has gone through a formal process and is conferred a specific, legally binding status.
It's the same way that in the medical world, the term "specialist" means having a license in a board recognized area of speciality. So, for example, if a doctor dedicated themselves to one subject matter and only treats that one subject. My hip surgeon, who only treats hips, and is a world leader in hip surgery, cannot be called a hip specialist, because there is no specialty just for hips. He *is* specialized in hips in the conversational sense, but that term would be considered inaccurate in a conversation about medical specialists because the word is co-opted to mean something legally specific, with significant legal implications.
The FDA could revoke the use of any of these vaccines on the basis that they aren't approved. It's a very important distinction, because the process of removing an officially approved drug from market is far more cumbersome than revoking an authorization.
It's not just pedantic, it's a significant legal power that the FDA is retaining.
I'm assuming that this lack of legal approval is predicated upon the fact that the covid vaccines have not been fully tested to normal standards (no long term health data)?
No, it is because we do not have childhood data. The FDA requires testing on children for full approval (with some minor exceptions).
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Getting my 2nd dose of Moderna on Saturday! I’m excited but nervous for side effects. I had a headache after dose 1 so I’m expecting at least that.
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The vaccine doesn't work/will give you cancer/is a government tracking chip (yes I really do work with people who think it's a tracking chip).
This is a particularly dumb conspiracy theory. If Bill Gates actually had the motivation, money, and technological power to put a nanotech tracking chip in the vaccine... he wouldn't have to put it in a vaccine. Everyone would have one in them already.
Not to mention, most of us have a darn good tracking chip in our pocket. If they really wanted to track us (they don't but if they did), the government doesn't need subdermal chips in its citizens.
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I'm curious to see if partisanship affects our trust in the vaccines coming our way.
These results are in.
Have or will receive the vaccine:
Dems:87%
Reps: 56%
National: 67%
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-the-biden-administration-covid-19/#sthash.cVqaAuQy.dpbs (http://maristpoll.marist.edu/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-the-biden-administration-covid-19/#sthash.cVqaAuQy.dpbs)
Does this mean the US will fail to achieve herd immunity this year? Maybe. It probably depends on how many vaccine skeptics get achieve some level of immunity through infection. I.e. half of the 33% of vaccine skeptics had COVID or will get COVID, and all the people who want a vaccine get one, then we'd be at about 83% with varying levels of immunity. Also, Republicans tend to have more kids, so when vaccines are available for those under 16, their parents may restrict access to a big chunk of the population.
Interesting factoid from the poll: 36% of us know someone who died from COVID. I figure vaccine hesitancy will decline as that number increases.
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I'm curious to see if partisanship affects our trust in the vaccines coming our way.
These results are in.
Have or will receive the vaccine:
Dems:87%
Reps: 56%
National: 67%
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-the-biden-administration-covid-19/#sthash.cVqaAuQy.dpbs (http://maristpoll.marist.edu/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-the-biden-administration-covid-19/#sthash.cVqaAuQy.dpbs)
Does this mean the US will fail to achieve herd immunity this year? Maybe. It probably depends on how many vaccine skeptics get achieve some level of immunity through infection. I.e. half of the 33% of vaccine skeptics had COVID or will get COVID, and all the people who want a vaccine get one, then we'd be at about 83% with varying levels of immunity. Also, Republicans tend to have more kids, so when vaccines are available for those under 16, their parents may restrict access to a big chunk of the population.
Interesting factoid from the poll: 36% of us know someone who died from COVID. I figure vaccine hesitancy will decline as that number increases.
Call me a naive optimist, but I know several people who were hesitant in early March that either got the vaccine or plan to now that an additional month of data/peer-pressure/etc has gone by. I think we will reach herd immunity by the middle of summer.
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I'm curious to see if partisanship affects our trust in the vaccines coming our way.
These results are in.
Have or will receive the vaccine:
Dems:87%
Reps: 56%
National: 67%
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-the-biden-administration-covid-19/#sthash.cVqaAuQy.dpbs (http://maristpoll.marist.edu/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-poll-results-the-biden-administration-covid-19/#sthash.cVqaAuQy.dpbs)
Does this mean the US will fail to achieve herd immunity this year? Maybe. It probably depends on how many vaccine skeptics get achieve some level of immunity through infection. I.e. half of the 33% of vaccine skeptics had COVID or will get COVID, and all the people who want a vaccine get one, then we'd be at about 83% with varying levels of immunity. Also, Republicans tend to have more kids, so when vaccines are available for those under 16, their parents may restrict access to a big chunk of the population.
Interesting factoid from the poll: 36% of us know someone who died from COVID. I figure vaccine hesitancy will decline as that number increases.
The other thing that sucks about this is, the fewer people who are vaccinated, the more opportunity that mutations have to occur.
Mutations that ultimately might not be stopped by our vaccines.
So, time is of the essence.
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Jab number 2 of Moderna today. I feel lighter already.
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I'm officially allowed to be vaccinated tomorrow (Ontario is vaccinating people who live in high risk areas who are 40 and over) . . . so I've put my name in with three different pharmacies and the first one to tell me they've got a slot available will win the honor of jabbing my arm. Astra-Zeneca only, which isn't my first choice. Hopefully I'll get a spot in the next few weeks and the vaccine won't cause any fatal blood clots.
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The vaccine doesn't work/will give you cancer/is a government tracking chip (yes I really do work with people who think it's a tracking chip).
This is a particularly dumb conspiracy theory. If Bill Gates actually had the motivation, money, and technological power to put a nanotech tracking chip in the vaccine... he wouldn't have to put it in a vaccine. Everyone would have one in them already.
Not to mention, most of us have a darn good tracking chip in our pocket. If they really wanted to track us (they don't but if they did), the government doesn't need subdermal chips in its citizens.
I actually heard the vaccine REMOVES a tracking chip. Tell your friends.
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I actually heard the vaccine REMOVES a tracking chip. Tell your friends.
Ha! Okay, here's the story we need to spread around: Trump personally developed the vaccine to remove Deep State tracking chips. Q said so.
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I'm officially allowed to be vaccinated tomorrow (Ontario is vaccinating people who live in high risk areas who are 40 and over) . . . so I've put my name in with three different pharmacies and the first one to tell me they've got a slot available will win the honor of jabbing my arm. Astra-Zeneca only, which isn't my first choice. Hopefully I'll get a spot in the next few weeks and the vaccine won't cause any fatal blood clots.
Just don't stand in an outdoor line if there is lightning in the area.
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Got my first jab of Pfizer yesterday. I’ve got a bit of a sore arm. I’m exhausted but I’m always exhausted and I’m pretty sure it has nothing to do with the vaccine.
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Got the second dose of Moderna on Tuesday. No reaction other than some soreness and minor swelling at the injection site. Honestly dose one was worse, my whole arm ached then.
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I've managed to book an appointment for the Astra-Zeneca vaccine . . . so . . . here's hoping no fatal blood clots! Whoooooo . . .
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Got my first jab today. I would have happily volunteered for J&J, but Pfizer is what they had in stock.
The nurse's workstation with stocked with piles of disposable syringes, tons of wipes, buckets of supplies... and one miraculous little vial filled with a type of vaccine that didn't even exist a few years ago. mRNA tech was a brand-new solution in source of a problem when Covid hit, and it never ceases to amaze me that 1) we avoided a global pandemic for so long, and 2) when it came they had JUST developed this new type of vaccine that was more effective and mass-producible.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2021/01/26/moderna-covid-vaccine-science-fast/6555783002/
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I need to call around tomorrow and try to find one.
It finally opened for my age group and I was scheduled for the Johnson and Johnson shot the morning it got "paused".
I tried other locations that morning but no slots available.
I'm hoping the local stockpile has filled back up.
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Local clinic finally said that they were opening vaccines.
Guess I can get Moderna.
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Local clinic finally said that they were opening vaccines.
Guess I can get Moderna.
Do it! I got the Moderna. Any of them would have been great, but the Moderna is my favorite.
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I got my first shot of the Pfizer vaccine last week and felt fine, aside from some soreness like with a flu shot. Here in Philly we've opened up to anyone 16+ and the vaccines are rolling out quickly.
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About half of Americans have received the vaccine.
Now we're down to the vaccine-hesitant conspiracy theorists. There is a surplus of vaccine and not enough people who want it.
https://apnews.com/article/nm-state-wire-health-coronavirus-government-and-politics-108f1fd0813f0d2ecec1589fd137625d (https://apnews.com/article/nm-state-wire-health-coronavirus-government-and-politics-108f1fd0813f0d2ecec1589fd137625d)
I say export their shots if they don't want to take them, and let evolution take its course.
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I've managed to book an appointment for the Astra-Zeneca vaccine . . . so . . . here's hoping no fatal blood clots! Whoooooo . . .
You, Justin and Sophie. ;-)
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About half of Americans have received the vaccine.
Now we're down to the vaccine-hesitant conspiracy theorists. There is a surplus of vaccine and not enough people who want it.
https://apnews.com/article/nm-state-wire-health-coronavirus-government-and-politics-108f1fd0813f0d2ecec1589fd137625d (https://apnews.com/article/nm-state-wire-health-coronavirus-government-and-politics-108f1fd0813f0d2ecec1589fd137625d)
I say export their shots if they don't want to take them, and let evolution take its course.
I'm in NM and they just opened things up to 16+ maybe a week ago. So it seems a bit premature to conclude there's huge swaths of the population that don't want to vaccine. So far about 60% of adults have in the state have already received it. My wife just got her second vaccine today and there was a long line at the site. She did note that it was almost entirely younger (20s to 40s) and no one was obese - presumably they would have been eligible earlier on for having a BMI of 25 or 30+.
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I don’t think we’re down to the hesitant and anti-vaxers just yet. The people we’ve been vaccinating so far are mostly the low-hanging fruit: those who are either highly motivated to get the vaccine or don’t face significant obstacles (they have flexible schedules, access to transportation, internet access to sign up for appointments, etc.) or both. I think there are still plenty of people out there who are interested in the vaccine but, because of these obstacles we’re going to have to work harder to get it to them (make vaccines available at all hours, time off work to get vaccinated, neighborhood clinics, provide transportation, etc.).
Once we hit those people then we’ll really be down the the hesitant (who may be persuadable, but it will take work) and the hardcore anti-vaxers (lost cause).
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I'm in NM and they just opened things up to 16+ maybe a week ago. So it seems a bit premature to conclude there's huge swaths of the population that don't want to vaccine. So far about 60% of adults have in the state have already received it. My wife just got her second vaccine today and there was a long line at the site. She did note that it was almost entirely younger (20s to 40s) and no one was obese - presumably they would have been eligible earlier on for having a BMI of 25 or 30+.
Same here, too. I only recently (last week) got a notification from my clinic that they opened vaccines up.
Guess I'm a vaccine denier since I don't have it yet :(
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I don’t think we’re down to the hesitant and anti-vaxers just yet. The people we’ve been vaccinating so far are mostly the low-hanging fruit: those who are either highly motivated to get the vaccine or don’t face significant obstacles (they have flexible schedules, access to transportation, internet access to sign up for appointments, etc.) or both. I think there are still plenty of people out there who are interested in the vaccine but, because of these obstacles we’re going to have to work harder to get it to them (make vaccines available at all hours, time off work to get vaccinated, neighborhood clinics, provide transportation, etc.).
Once we hit those people then we’ll really be down the the hesitant (who may be persuadable, but it will take work) and the hardcore anti-vaxers (lost cause).
I agree. That tracks with whom I’m seeing in my life who is already vaxed vs. not yet vaxed.
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It is really great that we've reached the point that the vaccine is available to everyone, and so many people have been vaccinated. I heard yesterday that the US is up to vaccinating 3 million people per day.
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It is really great that we've reached the point that the vaccine is available to everyone, and so many people have been vaccinated. I heard yesterday that the US is up to vaccinating 3 million people per day.
The Washington Post has some great trackers and they've put them all outside their paywalls:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/
We've hit 4 million on some days and we're averaging around 3 million. Not bad but I guess that's the perks of manufacturing them. (Sorry rest of the world.)
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
So, you feel it is unnecessary for you and your family to help your country achieve herd immunity?
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Got my J&J a few weeks ago (before it was temporarily pulled). Starting 12 hours after the vaccine, I had some pretty severe flu symptoms for another 12 hours (fever, chills). After that I was just tired for about a day.
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
So, you feel it is unnecessary for you and your family to help your country achieve herd immunity?
Yeah, this is one of the (many) things I learned from my wife. I never used to get flu shots, because as a healthy young adult, I wasn't scared of the flu. She's taken a bunch of public health classes, though, and years ago introduced me to the concept of herd immunity and being a vector. I've been getting flu shots ever since, and I'll certainly get a COVID vaccine. Here in Nova Scotia, though, I haven't gotten an appointment yet.
I have to say, having moved here from Florida last July, it has been amazing to be in a place where public health decisions are actually made by public health experts. We're in a lockdown (started about a week ago), with ~150 cases a day and a 1% positive rate. Hillsborough county (where I moved from, roughly the same population (1.4 million) as Nova Scotia (1 million)) has ~400 cases a day and a 10% positive rate and is living as though COVID is in the rearview. Nova Scotia has had 69 COVID deaths, including 53 in one long term care facility early in the pandemic. Hillsborough County has had 1713.
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
So, you feel it is unnecessary for you and your family to help your country achieve herd immunity?
dreaming is not alone in not quite grasping the concept.
The consequences of opting out of the jab could be deadly for all of us because it gives the virus time and opportunity to develop more variants.
If a variant pops up and thank goodness it hasn't yet that remains "immune" to our current vaccines - our goose will be cooked.
No 'effective' vaccine means natural selection and lots more deaths. Maybe dreaming doesn't mind dying this year...
I'd prefer herd immunity and getting back to 'normal'.
Mr. R. has several co-workers who are choosing not to get vaccinated which means we are both still at risk of re-infection every damn day!
I agree that we are not down to the vaccine opponents just yet, but demand is down enough to where they are closing down several vaccination sites in my immediate area. Everyone in our circle incl family has received Pfizer, down to the 16 yr olds who are allowed to get shots in Florida.
Now everyone is just waiting for shot approval for the teens and kids.
...and to those who believe the implanted chips myth - really, people? Who of us is that damned important that the US govt would care what we do?
Get a grip!
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Finally got my Pfizer vaccine yesterday. I had an evening of feeling tired and vaguely fluish. That resolved overnight and today my arm is a bit sore, but that’s it.
In my opinion, people who won’t get the vaccine for no good reason, as in “they don’t want to,” are being arrogant. No one’s inconvenience takes precedence over others’ very lives. I just don’t understand that mentality.
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I don't think they're arrogant. I think they have placed trust in the wrong information sources - like YouTube, Twitter, Fox, Reddit, & Facebook. There is a certain gullibility involved in letting oneself get sucked into an information bubble and then cutting off competing sources of information so that one can feel more certain and more like an in-group member. This is a human tendency though, one that we 21st century inhabitants have to learn our way out of. The internet will spread at least as much chaos as the printing press did in the 15th century.
There will always be people who join cults, in real life or online, but we can take comfort in the observation that rarely does everyone in a society join a cult when there are competing sources of information. The most gullible, or the most vulnerable, will always fall into the traps of manipulators and profiteers. What's really problematic is how they can end up killing other people.
If democratic republics survive the 21st century, I suspect critical thinking will be a mandatory subject taught in primary school. The history of Covid-19 and its variants will be a chapter in the curriculum.
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I don't think they're arrogant. I think they have placed trust in the wrong information sources - like YouTube, Twitter, Fox, Reddit, & Facebook. There is a certain gullibility involved in letting oneself get sucked into an information bubble and then cutting off competing sources of information so that one can feel more certain and more like an in-group member. This is a human tendency though, one that we 21st century inhabitants have to learn our way out of. The internet will spread at least as much chaos as the printing press did in the 15th century.
There will always be people who join cults, in real life or online, but we can take comfort in the observation that rarely does everyone in a society join a cult when there are competing sources of information. The most gullible, or the most vulnerable, will always fall into the traps of manipulators and profiteers. What's really problematic is how they can end up killing other people.
If democratic republics survive the 21st century, I suspect critical thinking will be a mandatory subject taught in primary school. The history of Covid-19 and its variants will be a chapter in the curriculum.
I agree with this. I think we can make the situation worse by being aggressive and angry with those who are choosing to wait and/or not be vaccinated. Even though it's frustrating as someone who understands herd immunity and the consequences of not reaching it. I have seen more people respond to explanation of how vaccines and herd immunity works, especially if you give people time and space to think through the new information.
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
So, you feel it is unnecessary for you and your family to help your country achieve herd immunity?
This is how we have to sell it. You get vaccinated so you don't harbor the virus (allowing it to mutate) or spread it to others.
I didn't get vaccinated for ME. I got vaccinated for everyone else.
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Does the US government have the right to force vaccinations? Has it forced vaccinations for other public diseases in the past? If so, what conditions or requirements would deem it necessary? I'm not a history buff, but I'm curious about how we got rid of Polio and other contagious diseases that required mass vaccinations.
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I’m Canadian, so not intimately familiar with American law, but I would think that trying to make vaccines mandatory would result in WW III. Even Canada won’t do it, however, school attendance is dependent on having certain vaccines in some provinces. If a parent is dead set against them, they have to home school.
Polio was a very feared disease because it attacked children as well as adults, caused visible lifelong disability and there was no real treatment for it other than iron lungs. If those things were true of Covid, there would be a stampede for vaccination.
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People didn’t take the science for granted. We’re so used to the utopia of relatively little pestilence that our fear of the “unknown” and the weird obsession our current society has with being special and right be damned overcomes actual, proven ways to improve our existence.
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however, school attendance is dependent on having certain vaccines in some provinces
Although vaccines are legally required for school attendance in theory, I know of several parents who are allowed to send their unvaccinated children to public schools in Ontario. You just claim 'conscience or religious belief' to be exempt and then have to sit through a lecture about how important vaccination is. It's very bullshit.
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however, school attendance is dependent on having certain vaccines in some provinces
Although vaccines are legally required for school attendance in theory, I know of several parents who are allowed to send their unvaccinated children to public schools in Ontario. You just claim 'conscience or religious belief' to be exempt and then have to sit through a lecture about how important vaccination is. It's very bullshit.
Yes, people have been abusing the religious exemption. We had some measles cases here in CT recently so they removed the religious exemption last month. Now it's medical exemptions only.
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however, school attendance is dependent on having certain vaccines in some provinces
Although vaccines are legally required for school attendance in theory, I know of several parents who are allowed to send their unvaccinated children to public schools in Ontario. You just claim 'conscience or religious belief' to be exempt and then have to sit through a lecture about how important vaccination is. It's very bullshit.
Same in Florida (not sure yet about Nova Scotia, but I suspect it's the same here, too).
I've heard rumblings about a "vaccine passport". Would one be able to get a religious exemption for that as well? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Businesses can certainly require vaccination, although I'm not sure how it's enforced. For example, a meditation community I belong to in Florida is having a retreat in a month or so but everyone has to be full vaccinated. I think it's effectively the honor-system, but that works in a community like that where everyone knows each other (I suspect). I don't know how you could realistically do it as a restaurant (for example).
I could drive a long way to get AstraZeneca, but I'm going to wait until stuff opens up closer to us, and I kind of want to wait for Pfizer / Moderna, but maybe that's dumb...
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
So, you feel it is unnecessary for you and your family to help your country achieve herd immunity?
Yeah, this is one of the (many) things I learned from my wife. I never used to get flu shots, because as a healthy young adult, I wasn't scared of the flu. She's taken a bunch of public health classes, though, and years ago introduced me to the concept of herd immunity and being a vector. I've been getting flu shots ever since, and I'll certainly get a COVID vaccine. Here in Nova Scotia, though, I haven't gotten an appointment yet.
I have to say, having moved here from Florida last July, it has been amazing to be in a place where public health decisions are actually made by public health experts. We're in a lockdown (started about a week ago), with ~150 cases a day and a 1% positive rate. Hillsborough county (where I moved from, roughly the same population (1.4 million) as Nova Scotia (1 million)) has ~400 cases a day and a 10% positive rate and is living as though COVID is in the rearview. Nova Scotia has had 69 COVID deaths, including 53 in one long term care facility early in the pandemic. Hillsborough County has had 1713.
You are so lucky to have moved to Nova Scotia. The Ontario government has not paid nearly as much attention to the public health advisors. Same for a few other provinces. :-(
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I am not anti vaccine, have gotten and my children have gotten all the normal childhood vaccines. However, we do not get the flu shot nor will we get this one. I feel they are unnecessary for us.
So, you feel it is unnecessary for you and your family to help your country achieve herd immunity?
Yeah, this is one of the (many) things I learned from my wife. I never used to get flu shots, because as a healthy young adult, I wasn't scared of the flu. She's taken a bunch of public health classes, though, and years ago introduced me to the concept of herd immunity and being a vector. I've been getting flu shots ever since, and I'll certainly get a COVID vaccine. Here in Nova Scotia, though, I haven't gotten an appointment yet.
I have to say, having moved here from Florida last July, it has been amazing to be in a place where public health decisions are actually made by public health experts. We're in a lockdown (started about a week ago), with ~150 cases a day and a 1% positive rate. Hillsborough county (where I moved from, roughly the same population (1.4 million) as Nova Scotia (1 million)) has ~400 cases a day and a 10% positive rate and is living as though COVID is in the rearview. Nova Scotia has had 69 COVID deaths, including 53 in one long term care facility early in the pandemic. Hillsborough County has had 1713.
You are so lucky to have moved to Nova Scotia. The Ontario government has not paid nearly as much attention to the public health advisors. Same for a few other provinces. :-(
We feel the same way! We started this process (moving to Nova Scotia as permanent residents) in 2017, so COVID had nothing to do with it. Seeing how it has all unfolded, though, has certainly made us feel comfortable with our decision.
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I did end up getting the J and J vax last week, no problems at all post shot. Went right back to work that afternoon.
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People act as if the only possible negative outcome of Covid is death. There are many other negative outcomes other than death that we collectively should work to minimize. Hospitalization, long Covid, even just being really sick for several weeks. We’ve done a poor job communicating these other outcomes and the benefits of vaccination in preventing them.
For myself and my family, we’re unlikely to have any serious outcomes other than potentially being pretty sick for a couple of weeks. I know several young, healthy people who were knocked on their asses by Covid and were out of commission awhile. Combine that very common not-so-great outcome with how very safe the vaccines are and it’s a no brainer to me to get the vaccine just to avoid getting super sick, even if I’m not worried about hospitalization or death.
And same goes for my 11 and 13 year olds. They’ll definitely be getting vaccinated as soon as it is available for their ages.
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People act as if the only possible negative outcome of Covid is death. There are many other negative outcomes other than death that we collectively should work to minimize. Hospitalization, long Covid, even just being really sick for several weeks. We’ve done a poor job communicating these other outcomes and the benefits of vaccination in preventing them.
For myself and my family, we’re unlikely to have any serious outcomes other than potentially being pretty sick for a couple of weeks. I know several young, healthy people who were knocked on their asses by Covid and were out of commission awhile. Combine that very common not-so-great outcome with how very safe the vaccines are and it’s a no brainer to me to get the vaccine just to avoid getting super sick, even if I’m not worried about hospitalization or death.
And same goes for my 11 and 13 year olds. They’ll definitely be getting vaccinated as soon as it is available for their ages.
Exactly.
Even the most benign side effect, losing your sense of smell, shouldn't be underestimated.
Try losing your inability to enjoy food for just a few weeks, and you'll see that it's devastating to your overall quality of life. I would take a new vaccine just to avoid that fate.
Then looking at the long list of ongoing neurological symptoms that so many people have suffered? Again, I have a lot of those neurological symptoms, and I've taken some drugs with terrifying *known* risks to try and manage them.
I'm not afraid of dying of covid because I'm not afraid of dying period, but I am definitely seriously wary of the reports of weird, long term, possibly irreversible neurological damage.
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I am a week past my second shot of the pfizer vaccine. The first shot I got sick, real sick and knew that I never wanted to deal with covid without a vaccine. The second shot I had a sore arm. But the best side effect I have is the response my body had was to clear all of the inflammation that was in my body, I no longer need my glasses. My near sidedness is caused by inflammation and I can control it somewhat by diet. But my diet has been pretty darn good. It is do damn nice to be able to do things without my glasses. It is a nice bonus side effect that I assume is from the vaccine.
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Losing one’s sense of taste might not even be too bad. There’s one person in my province who has said that everything now tastes like sulphur and has lost weight because of it. I’m sure he would rather taste nothing at all.
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People act as if the only possible negative outcome of Covid is death. There are many other negative outcomes other than death that we collectively should work to minimize. Hospitalization, long Covid, even just being really sick for several weeks. We’ve done a poor job communicating these other outcomes and the benefits of vaccination in preventing them.
For myself and my family, we’re unlikely to have any serious outcomes other than potentially being pretty sick for a couple of weeks. I know several young, healthy people who were knocked on their asses by Covid and were out of commission awhile. Combine that very common not-so-great outcome with how very safe the vaccines are and it’s a no brainer to me to get the vaccine just to avoid getting super sick, even if I’m not worried about hospitalization or death.
And same goes for my 11 and 13 year olds. They’ll definitely be getting vaccinated as soon as it is available for their ages.
Exactly.
Even the most benign side effect, losing your sense of smell, shouldn't be underestimated.
Try losing your inability to enjoy food for just a few weeks, and you'll see that it's devastating to your overall quality of life. I would take a new vaccine just to avoid that fate.
Then looking at the long list of ongoing neurological symptoms that so many people have suffered? Again, I have a lot of those neurological symptoms, and I've taken some drugs with terrifying *known* risks to try and manage them.
I'm not afraid of dying of covid because I'm not afraid of dying period, but I am definitely seriously wary of the reports of weird, long term, possibly irreversible neurological damage.
Exactly. My husband’s coworker—in his 30s, no underlying health conditions—had COVID in March and was out sick for 2 weeks. He’s only just starting to get his sense of taste back. My mom’s boss, at age 65, survived it but was out sick for all of December and part of January and nearly died of the related pneumonia. He lost a dangerous amount of body weight and is still having lung problems.
In contrast, I had my second shot of the Moderna vax on Thursday morning. That day, I had no adverse effects other than a sore shoulder. I woke up on Friday with a headache and low-grade fever, which were knocked back effectively by a single Motrin tablet. The fever later spiked to 101.2 F but was again knocked down with Motrin. No other adverse effects. I feel fine today (Saturday). Two weeks from now, I’ll be considered fully vaccinated. I will take that over actual COVID (and the risk of inadvertently transmitting it to someone less likely to fare well) any day.
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In my opinion, people who won’t get the vaccine for no good reason, as in “they don’t want to,” are being arrogant. No one’s inconvenience takes precedence over others’ very lives. I just don’t understand that mentality.
Realistically this happens continuously in this world both on a personal decision basis as well as governmental policy level.
Covid vaccines are more cost/time effective on this front but the reality is, many/most of us could save lives by choosing to donate money/time/resources and choose not to do so.
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Losing one’s sense of taste might not even be too bad. There’s one person in my province who has said that everything now tastes like sulphur and has lost weight because of it. I’m sure he would rather taste nothing at all.
A friend of a friend had Covid and lost her sense of smell and taste. She has burned food repeatedly and almost set the kitchen on fire twice, and can't tell when food is going "off". These senses are important.