Author Topic: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?  (Read 5517 times)

JGS1980

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Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« on: April 24, 2020, 01:19:58 PM »
My question is this:

After living (hopefully) through the great Recession in 2008 followed by the Coronavirus Pandemic of 2020, do you think the Millennial Generation's spending and saving pattern will be forever impacted?

There's an anecdotal history of folks who lived through the Great Depression of the 30's being frugal for the rest of their lives. Living the life they learned while they came of age. Is history about to repeat itself?

We here, of course, are self-selected. So this question is more about general society.

I'm an early Millennial in my late 30's. And I can say that carrying student loan debt probably effected me more than either of these two crises. However, everything that is going on is certainly validating my MMM approach to life.

JGS


nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2020, 01:33:07 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials. 

maizefolk

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2020, 01:40:37 PM »
In the great depression, there was wide-scale hunger. Growing up worrying about having enough to eat will definitely shape people's behavior ever afterwards.

Right now we're still lots of people stressing about money/rent. And I'm sure hunger has ticked up, but I don't think it is anything close to the same scale. Yet anyway. If we're really already at 23% unemployment and stay there for a while, I could definitely see it shaping people's behavior and habits in a way the great recession didn't.

APowers

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2020, 01:41:21 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials.

I was going to say this same thing-- probably Gen Z will be most affected psychologically, as they are the cohort now hitting adulthood strides. Millenials at this point have been adulting for over a decade, which is likely long enough to have cemented a "default" relationship with money/finances.

charis

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2020, 01:59:35 PM »
As an older millennial myself, having exited grad school into the '08 recession, and watching my father go through an extended layoff in the early 2000s, I think those experiences affected me and my habits. But I always had an aversion to debt and my parents were relatively frugal during my childhood.

Now I'm just really grateful for every decision that my high-consumption friends and family questioned (our inexpensive/dated "starter" home, used older cars, second hand clothes/furniture, etc, public school) so we could max our savings rate.

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2020, 02:02:36 PM »
I'm 30, so I'm either a late millennial or mid-millennial, depending on how you define millennials. Most people in that age range were in university or high school when the crash of 2008 hit, so many of us didn't have any jobs to lose.

The general attitude towards money that I see in my age group is that the economy is rigged against younger people, and that the high cost of education, child care and housing means we will have to work forever to pay off the debt and will never be able to retire. Many have a "YOLO" attitude to money as a result: why sacrifice to save for a house if houses cost $500,000? (that's actually the price of a one-bedroom condo where I live...detached houses start at $1 million) Better to rent and spend on experiences. There's some truth to it - housing costs and university tuition have appreciated much faster than wages. And giving up avocado toast and lattes won't, by itself, be enough to even get you a 10% down payment or pay off your student loans, especially if you are spending $1,500/month on rent and $1,000/month on your student loans. But many of my colleagues don't seem to be aware of how much they could save by getting a roommate, a cheaper apartment, riding a bike, or packing a lunch every day.

The big change seems to come when people become parents, which is just starting for late millennials.

PoutineLover

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2020, 02:16:46 PM »
I'm a millennial and I have a pretty good approach to money (obviously, because I'm here), and I know a lot of people my age who save, pay down their loans, and generally don't blow their money on useless shit. I think every generation has spendthrifts and savers, and it's the people on the extremes who get profiled and discussed. Boring regular people who pay their bills and spend money on fun stuff once in a while don't make the news. Knowing that the market has crashed right before/as I was starting to save, and again now, has definitely impacted me in that I feel more motivated to save and invest and have an emergency fund for shit like this, but it has made some of my friends less likely to trust the stock market. But every generation has had financial challenges, and every generation likes to say that their problems were the worst and everyone else has it easier.

mm1970

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2020, 03:26:48 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials.

I was going to say this same thing-- probably Gen Z will be most affected psychologically, as they are the cohort now hitting adulthood strides. Millenials at this point have been adulting for over a decade, which is likely long enough to have cemented a "default" relationship with money/finances.
Gen Z is apparently age 4 to 24.  So, maybe the older ones, but I doubt my 2 kids (7 and 14) will be terribly affected.

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2020, 03:40:45 PM »
We're 39yo and 38yo at my house so almost millenials. Having gone through three recessions now (2000, 2008, 2020), the one that's most seared in our brains is the 2008 housing debacle.  We vowed to pay off our mortgage so we never had to worry about housing again.  This latest drama really reinforced healthcare and having enough toilet paper.  In 2008 I never worried about where I was going to get food or dry goods but this time I do.   Since our housing situation is sorted now I think we will be maintaining a larger stock of essential goods going forward from here on out. 

nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2020, 05:23:00 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials.

I was going to say this same thing-- probably Gen Z will be most affected psychologically, as they are the cohort now hitting adulthood strides. Millenials at this point have been adulting for over a decade, which is likely long enough to have cemented a "default" relationship with money/finances.
Gen Z is apparently age 4 to 24.  So, maybe the older ones, but I doubt my 2 kids (7 and 14) will be terribly affected.

Are you sure?  I’m not wishing any economic hardship on you, but imagine colleagues of yours losing their livelihood and being long term unemployed. Growing up poor leaves a mark. Going from middle class to soup kitchens when you are 7 might be worse.

That’s basically the experience of my grandmother, who was in elementary school when they had to sell their house and move into a one bedroom rental.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 08:33:06 AM »
I'm 27, so I guess a mid-millennial? I have a few experiences that shaped my frugal habits; seeing family members losing money in the dot com bust, my grandparents losing their small business in the recession, listening to my parents fighting about money, seeing friends' parents laid off. Now, seeing friends in the service industry laid off and struggling to get assistance amid the pandemic.

I've been interested in money from a young age, so even without these experiences, it's possible I'd have the same habits I have now. I think that there are savers and spendthrifts in every generation, so it is impossible to have a blanket categorization for all. Some millennials I know are super savers, and some are nihilistic as they think they'll never defeat their student debt. However, we have been through some scary times and hopefully we come out on top. We have a lot of time to figure it our or bounce back from setbacks. Right now I'm more concerned for any of our Boomer parents who were hoping to retire soon, and now have to go back to the drawing board.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2020, 09:44:46 AM »
Mid-30s but my wife and I got married and started having kids right after college in our early twenties, so a bit earlier than most of our peers. I got my first real job out of college a couple of months before the market collapsed in 2008 - if I had graduated a year later I would have had a very different experience I'm sure. However, we're both relatively frugal so this won't change things. I've got a solid job and we've amassed a pretty decent net worth for our age considering how many mouths we have to feed and all the extra costs associated with that.

I've always liked to have some food storage on hand but frankly it was not very much. We still haven't broken out the few dozen MREs I've got out in the garage that I've slowly amassed over the years. Going forward I think we, and many others, will be much more intentional about keeping a month or two of food on hand. I.e. rotating through a few 25-lb bags of rice and having 30 cans of beans in the pantry instead of 5-6. It's also a fairly decent inflation hedge and can act as part of an emergency fund because you could dramatically decrease your grocery budget for a while by relying on your stored food for a time.

Morning Glory

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2020, 01:51:51 PM »
I don't have a great opinion about stored food as an emergency fund. It seems more likely that the food would get damaged by water, mold, or insects than that there would ever be a situation where you couldn't get food. Same for TP.

I've had moths and mice destroy food before, so now I keep all pantry items in airtight containers. I know a few people who have lost freezers full of food to power failures too. Seems safer to let the store store it.

The other thing is if I had to move in a hurry (e.g. in case of job loss) it would be a lot more cumbersome to move or give away a lot of food.

Having tons of food would also not prevent you from going hungry if you became truly poor because you couldn't really bring much with you if you lost your home.

Edit: I am not against buying 3 months worth of something if it is on a really good sale, I just don't see the point in having 3 months worth of everything and having to rotate it and make sure it's safe.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 02:30:25 PM by Aunt Petunia »

jafr1284

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2020, 07:26:42 PM »
I am a early millenial/ gen z and am just about to graduate college. Job market sucks and 90 percent of my friends and colleagues lost their jobs. I think this will affect me and my peers profoundly.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2020, 09:35:30 PM »
Agree with the sentiments about Gen Z being more affected than Millennials:

1) We might start calling them the Pandemic Generation instead of Gen Z. This event will set the course of their lives. Zero exaggeration there.
2) I think the concept of college is going to be rejected by the Pandemic Generation, who watched their parents lose their restaurant jobs and struggle with paying off their humanities degree. What good is it, they'll ask?
3) As the Boomers die off, there will be a lot of real estate that is poorly suited for the needs of Gen Z. Oversized, expensive, and distant suburban homes in need of remods might not be in the budget, or might not appeal. To the extent Boomer Habitats find a market, it will be Pandemic Generation investors who are playing mini-landlords renting out the other two bedrooms to economic nomads who must move every couple of years to advance in their incredibly narrow niches.
4) The trend toward urban living that Gen X and Millennials started is about to end. High population density will seem risky to the Pandemic Generation.

LWYRUP

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2020, 10:16:01 PM »
Agree with the sentiments about Gen Z being more affected than Millennials:

1) We might start calling them the Pandemic Generation instead of Gen Z. This event will set the course of their lives. Zero exaggeration there.
2) I think the concept of college is going to be rejected by the Pandemic Generation, who watched their parents lose their restaurant jobs and struggle with paying off their humanities degree. What good is it, they'll ask?
3) As the Boomers die off, there will be a lot of real estate that is poorly suited for the needs of Gen Z. Oversized, expensive, and distant suburban homes in need of remods might not be in the budget, or might not appeal. To the extent Boomer Habitats find a market, it will be Pandemic Generation investors who are playing mini-landlords renting out the other two bedrooms to economic nomads who must move every couple of years to advance in their incredibly narrow niches.
4) The trend toward urban living that Gen X and Millennials started is about to end. High population density will seem risky to the Pandemic Generation.

Not sure I agree with all of this.  The preponderance of college educated people I know do some computer / office work and are working remotely.  It's the un-colleged that are in a bind right now.

And I sort of agree with you on #3 and #4 but note they are in tension with one another.  Distant suburban homes would work well for someone who needs to be in the city once a week or so but works from home otherwise.  I agree that people don't like dated houses, but to a certain extent what happens when properties age is the solid stuff holds its value and the poorly built stuff does not.  And "solid vs. poorly built" is not really an urban / suburban / small town / rural phenomenon.  There are high quality and low quality properties everywhere. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 11:15:57 PM »
Agree with the sentiments about Gen Z being more affected than Millennials:

1) We might start calling them the Pandemic Generation instead of Gen Z. This event will set the course of their lives. Zero exaggeration there.
2) I think the concept of college is going to be rejected by the Pandemic Generation, who watched their parents lose their restaurant jobs and struggle with paying off their humanities degree. What good is it, they'll ask?
3) As the Boomers die off, there will be a lot of real estate that is poorly suited for the needs of Gen Z. Oversized, expensive, and distant suburban homes in need of remods might not be in the budget, or might not appeal. To the extent Boomer Habitats find a market, it will be Pandemic Generation investors who are playing mini-landlords renting out the other two bedrooms to economic nomads who must move every couple of years to advance in their incredibly narrow niches.
4) The trend toward urban living that Gen X and Millennials started is about to end. High population density will seem risky to the Pandemic Generation.

Not sure I agree with all of this.  The preponderance of college educated people I know do some computer / office work and are working remotely.  It's the un-colleged that are in a bind right now.

And I sort of agree with you on #3 and #4 but note they are in tension with one another.  Distant suburban homes would work well for someone who needs to be in the city once a week or so but works from home otherwise.  I agree that people don't like dated houses, but to a certain extent what happens when properties age is the solid stuff holds its value and the poorly built stuff does not.  And "solid vs. poorly built" is not really an urban / suburban / small town / rural phenomenon.  There are high quality and low quality properties everywhere.

I think the concept of being an upper middle class professional will become decoupled from having a bachelor's degree. Millions of millennials got buried in debt and burned years of productive effort to get degrees in humanities, social sciences, arts, or general studies - only to work as a waiters, delivery people, construction workers, and Uber drivers. That economic tragedy won't happen again. It is already the case that accreditations offered by non-college professional and corporate organizations mean more than degrees in many fields. My Millennial director went from being a driver to being a six-figure executive because he dove into the free online training on one piece of software offered by a large software corporation and became an expert on that one piece of software. I have a super-narrow credential from a professional organization that is worth more in the job market than my MBA.

#3 and #4 are definitely in tension. If forced to choose, I would drop #3. Maybe by skipping college and going straight to studying online for professional certifications, the Pandemic Generation will be able to afford the estates of dead Boomers in a way college-educated Millennials never could. Plus, they may feel nostalgia for the happy pre-pandemic times of their childhood, and a sense of security from having a moat of grass around their single family home / workplace. Maybe the hypochondria of the Pandemic Generation makes them want to live alone in the vast family houses built three generations ago. When commuting is no longer a thing, the Pandemic Generation might want to live in rural / exurban areas.



LWYRUP

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2020, 07:02:57 AM »
Sadly though, I doubt there will be a generational shift towards saving. 

AnxietyFly

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2020, 07:53:25 AM »
I grew up in a very wealthy area but my family was poor. I always saved like I was a super-saver most likely because of the way I grew up.  For example, I started saving for a 401k when I was 18.  In my thirties, I made significant raises at my job. Each one translated into 100% savings. I don't think the 2001 or 2008 disasters had any impact to my decision making being done today. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2020, 08:36:35 AM »
Sadly though, I doubt there will be a generational shift towards saving.

There is a strong case to be made that increased screen time leads to increased ad views which leads to increased consumption which leads to lower savings.

It could be that our life experiences, goals, and resolutions have a much smaller effect than the culture we live in. Younger generations may want to save, but find themselves unable to execute their own plans as the devices they look at for 6-7 hours/day nudge them toward overspending.

ender

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2020, 08:55:34 AM »
I don't think this forum is going to give you a good representation of the general millennial population.

nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2020, 09:21:52 AM »
Sadly though, I doubt there will be a generational shift towards saving.

There is a strong case to be made that increased screen time leads to increased ad views which leads to increased consumption which leads to lower savings.


You mean all those billion$ spent on advertising actually influences our thinking?
Color me shocked!!

ender

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2020, 09:24:46 AM »
Sadly though, I doubt there will be a generational shift towards saving.

There is a strong case to be made that increased screen time leads to increased ad views which leads to increased consumption which leads to lower savings.


You mean all those billion$ spent on advertising actually influences our thinking?
Color me shocked!!

I wonder what percentage of people assume that they aren't affected by advertising, but everyone else is.

I bet it's a huge percentage who think advertising doesn't actually impact them.

maizefolk

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2020, 09:46:02 AM »
I know for a fact advertising has influenced my choice of deodorant and my choice of mattress. Aside from podcasts (where mattress ads were constant for a few years), I just don't see a lot of intentional advertising anymore. No broadcast/cable tv, good ad blockers on web browser.

The more insidious effect is how media (tv/movies) recalibrates people's expectations of what a normal or average standard of living is, which can definitely drive a lot of needed spending to keep up with imaginary Joneses and is harder to avoid than not watching commercial or seeing web ads.

nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2020, 09:54:58 AM »
Sadly though, I doubt there will be a generational shift towards saving.

There is a strong case to be made that increased screen time leads to increased ad views which leads to increased consumption which leads to lower savings.


You mean all those billion$ spent on advertising actually influences our thinking?
Color me shocked!!

I wonder what percentage of people assume that they aren't affected by advertising, but everyone else is.

I bet it's a huge percentage who think advertising doesn't actually impact them.

Well, not on advertising per se, but roughly 1/3 of the population strongly respond to placebos (termed “responders”), yet in interviews more than 90% believe that they can tell the difference between a ‘real’ treatment and a placebo.  We are influenced even when we dont realize we are being influenced.

Enough listening to Freakanomics podcasts makes me believe that everyone except sociopaths are influenced somewhat by advertising.  It’s actually a core reason why COI regulations exist (and should exist) for most management positions.  Even when you truly believe you are doing what’s best for the company your thinking is strongly influenced by what is best for you and your family, and people prioritize it as such even when they believe they aren’t doing exactly that.

DadJokes

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2020, 10:11:41 AM »
Personally, I'm not a fan of assigning stereotypes to people based on age. There are going to be very few similarities between a child raised in middle America and a child raised on one of the coasts.

We've heard about every stereotype possible about millennials, many of which contradict. All it takes is a journalist to find similarities among a handful of people in the same generation to assign some stereotype to that entire generation.

Outside of things that affect a large percentage of people for an extended period of time (great depression, cold war, etc.), I don't really buy into the idea that events shape an entire generation. If the pandemic becomes more serious and lasts for several years, then maybe it can shape an entire generation.

LWYRUP

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2020, 10:30:48 AM »

@ender -- I used to think I wasn't really impacted by advertising and now I know that is totally not true.  I can see through and ignore SOME advertising, but I've definitely found myself swayed by other.  Repeated exposure matters too.  I used to watch HGTV all the time when I rented apartments and never gave a crap.  But it probably impacted which house I bought.  It DEFINITELY made me want to do renovations.  It's amazing that when I stopped watching it then the desire to do any more renovations waned over time. 

@DadJokes -- Agreed.  The variation between individuals within a generation (or generally within a country, ethnic group, religion, etc.) in my view is almost always much larger than the difference between aggregated group characteristics.  Some people will save a lot and others won't.  That doesn't mean there aren't differences between generations, but I think they are more subtle and show up over time. 


mm1970

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2020, 01:01:50 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials.

I was going to say this same thing-- probably Gen Z will be most affected psychologically, as they are the cohort now hitting adulthood strides. Millenials at this point have been adulting for over a decade, which is likely long enough to have cemented a "default" relationship with money/finances.
Gen Z is apparently age 4 to 24.  So, maybe the older ones, but I doubt my 2 kids (7 and 14) will be terribly affected.

Are you sure?  I’m not wishing any economic hardship on you, but imagine colleagues of yours losing their livelihood and being long term unemployed. Growing up poor leaves a mark. Going from middle class to soup kitchens when you are 7 might be worse.

That’s basically the experience of my grandmother, who was in elementary school when they had to sell their house and move into a one bedroom rental.
Note I said *MY* kids.  I have no doubt this is going to damage their predominantly poor classmates more. It's hard to say though, because their lives already are pretty sucky.

nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2020, 01:50:54 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials.

I was going to say this same thing-- probably Gen Z will be most affected psychologically, as they are the cohort now hitting adulthood strides. Millenials at this point have been adulting for over a decade, which is likely long enough to have cemented a "default" relationship with money/finances.
Gen Z is apparently age 4 to 24.  So, maybe the older ones, but I doubt my 2 kids (7 and 14) will be terribly affected.

Are you sure?  I’m not wishing any economic hardship on you, but imagine colleagues of yours losing their livelihood and being long term unemployed. Growing up poor leaves a mark. Going from middle class to soup kitchens when you are 7 might be worse.

That’s basically the experience of my grandmother, who was in elementary school when they had to sell their house and move into a one bedroom rental.
Note I said *MY* kids.  I have no doubt this is going to damage their predominantly poor classmates more. It's hard to say though, because their lives already are pretty sucky.

Fair enough.  Partly why I decided to make it “a colleague” instead of you in particular. 
hope you are at least sorta-joking about your kids’ lives sucking.

maisymouser

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2020, 02:16:04 PM »
As you noted, half the millennials are in their 30s (some have adult children!), and behavioral psychology tells us that most of our characters are pretty entrenched by our mid to late 20s

I think it's more likely that Gen Z changes their saving habits, and possibly the youngest of the Millennials.

I was going to say this same thing-- probably Gen Z will be most affected psychologically, as they are the cohort now hitting adulthood strides. Millenials at this point have been adulting for over a decade, which is likely long enough to have cemented a "default" relationship with money/finances.
Gen Z is apparently age 4 to 24.  So, maybe the older ones, but I doubt my 2 kids (7 and 14) will be terribly affected.

Are you sure?  I’m not wishing any economic hardship on you, but imagine colleagues of yours losing their livelihood and being long term unemployed. Growing up poor leaves a mark. Going from middle class to soup kitchens when you are 7 might be worse.

That’s basically the experience of my grandmother, who was in elementary school when they had to sell their house and move into a one bedroom rental.
Note I said *MY* kids.  I have no doubt this is going to damage their predominantly poor classmates more. It's hard to say though, because their lives already are pretty sucky.

Fair enough.  Partly why I decided to make it “a colleague” instead of you in particular. 
hope you are at least sorta-joking about your kids’ lives sucking.

I read it as the poorer classmates' lives, not the poster's lives. And I wouldn't doubt it, there are *so* many kids growing up in ridiculously poor, abusive, and resource-less situations right now. That's my biggest COVID concern- how many children are going to grow up without the support they would normally have outside of their homes?

DadJokes

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2020, 02:41:07 PM »

I read it as the poorer classmates' lives, not the poster's lives. And I wouldn't doubt it, there are *so* many kids growing up in ridiculously poor, abusive, and resource-less situations right now. That's my biggest COVID concern- how many children are going to grow up without the support they would normally have outside of their homes?

One concern I have is that, with schools being out right now, no one is there to see if abuse is happening at home. When kids come in with bruises frequently, teachers will anonymously call CPS to check on the child's situation at home. That protection isn't available right now.

Not to mention the fact that kids who previously got free or reduced lunches aren't getting that now...

maizefolk

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2020, 02:46:28 PM »
Not to mention the fact that kids who previously got free or reduced lunches aren't getting that now...

Around here, a lot of schools have set up free takeout lunches that anyone who lives in the district can access.

In other parts of the country, school districts are sending out bus drivers to drop off packaged and heat sterilized lunches for students.

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/22/819725473/school-bus-drivers-deliver-meals-instead-of-children

Not ideal from a lockdown quarantine perspective, but definitely an important and necessary compromise to make sure children (in the districts that have been willing to set these up) aren't spending their whole days hungry.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 04:44:37 PM by maizeman »

nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2020, 02:54:46 PM »
Not to mention the fact that kids who previously got free or reduced lunches aren't getting that now...

Around here, a lot of schools have set up free takeout lunches that anyone who lives in the district can access.

In other parts of the country, school districts are sending out bus drivers to drop off packaged and heat sterilized lunches for students.

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/22/819725473/school-bus-drivers-deliver-meals-instead-of-children

Not idea from a lockdown quarantine perspective, but definitely an important and necessary compromise to make sure children (in the districts that have been willing to set these up) aren't spending their whole days hungry.

This reminds me of just how non-centralized our public schools are.  50 states setting various standards and policies for thousands of semi-autonomous school districts.  Some are very well run, even providing substantial social support during this unexpected shutdown.  Others don’t have the resources or the mandate.

SunnyDays

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2020, 02:58:04 PM »
I don’t hold out any hope of a significant number of people of any age becoming super savers due to the pandemic.  Most people have bought in heavily (no pun intended) to an unrealistic standard of living.  Today’s middle class people, at a young age, expect to live in a brand new home with new furniture, hardwood floors, and stainless steel appliances, have a new car, go on regular big vacations, eat out a lot, have a fancy wardrobe, mani/pedis and the latest tech gadgets.  Even 25 years ago, expectations were way lower as a rule.  I think that expectations rose astronomically with the most advent of “reality” shows, where if you aren’t living like the Kardashians, you’re a failure.  Plus most people have short memories and in a few years will largely be back to living however they did previously.

LWYRUP

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2020, 03:15:45 PM »
I don’t hold out any hope of a significant number of people of any age becoming super savers due to the pandemic.  Most people have bought in heavily (no pun intended) to an unrealistic standard of living.  Today’s middle class people, at a young age, expect to live in a brand new home with new furniture, hardwood floors, and stainless steel appliances, have a new car, go on regular big vacations, eat out a lot, have a fancy wardrobe, mani/pedis and the latest tech gadgets.  Even 25 years ago, expectations were way lower as a rule.  I think that expectations rose astronomically with the most advent of “reality” shows, where if you aren’t living like the Kardashians, you’re a failure.  Plus most people have short memories and in a few years will largely be back to living however they did previously.

Agreed, I think that TV warps people's expectations of reality and about how difficult it is for most people to achieve that reality (e.g., getting enough money to do all that sustainably usually involves an unpleasant and probably unhealthy amount of usually boring office work). 

So the only way people can have their cake and eat it to is through debt but that just creates a treadmill and doesn't end well.  Much better would be to just voluntarily embrace lifestyles that require less consumption, less resources and accordingly less work and stress.  But people aren't going the hear that message from any mainstream source funded by advertising dollars. 

Personally, I think a refreshed, modern home economics course should be mandatory for high school graduation.  (Today's assignment: Read the Richest Man in Bablyon and Early Retirement Extreme and write a five page essay on which life strategy you think would be most appropriate for you and why?)


Michael in ABQ

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2020, 04:15:56 PM »
I don’t hold out any hope of a significant number of people of any age becoming super savers due to the pandemic.  Most people have bought in heavily (no pun intended) to an unrealistic standard of living.  Today’s middle class people, at a young age, expect to live in a brand new home with new furniture, hardwood floors, and stainless steel appliances, have a new car, go on regular big vacations, eat out a lot, have a fancy wardrobe, mani/pedis and the latest tech gadgets.  Even 25 years ago, expectations were way lower as a rule.  I think that expectations rose astronomically with the most advent of “reality” shows, where if you aren’t living like the Kardashians, you’re a failure.  Plus most people have short memories and in a few years will largely be back to living however they did previously.

Yep. Looking at our baby boomer parents we see their able to buy all these things - ignoring the fact that they had decades to accumulate that wealth and higher income. And in many cases it still might be financed with debt and they could be at the end of their working life with hardly any retirement beyond a (hopefully) paid off house. My parents are around 70 and finally paid off their house they bought in 1976 - 44 years later. They refinanced multiple times (from an original 8-9% rate) and kept using the equity and extending the term. They did manage to save a few hundred thousand but at the rate I'm going I'll have accumulated more wealth by 50 than they had at 65.

charis

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2020, 05:30:55 PM »
I think the rise of social media helps those unrealistic expectations because you have a peek into people's homes. Everyone loves posting a pic of their adorable tot making cookies on the granite countertop with stainless steel appliances and a KitchenAid mixer in the background.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2020, 09:45:02 PM »
I suppose if we expect the pandemic generation to not be consumerists like their parents and grandparents, there would have to be some kind of revolutionary movement promoting a new meaning of life. After all, most of us who have decided to spend all our lives earning and using up luxury items or other drugs have defaulted into that rut for lack of anything more meaningful.

Religious and political fanaticism comes to mind as an alternative, but (a) it doesn't necessarily have to be that way, and (b) generational trends are pointing the opposite direction. Furthermore, religious and political groups today more resemble country clubs than monasteries. They don't offer much to struggling young people living in a harsher economic environment than the earlier generations ever knew. Throughout history, when a cultural default became impossible to pursue any longer, younger generations have rebelled. In the 1960's, young people avoided being sent to a Southeast Asian war of futility by becoming hippies, offending the values of their elders but yet surviving. In the 2020's, young people will find that the value set of their elders (the house, the car, the vacations, the remods, the riding lawnmower, hours a day of electronic media consumption) is impossible to pursue. They will face a choice to live in misery with a sense of failure or to adopt a different value set. Millennials took a baby step in this direction by valuing smartphones and sneakers over TVs and cars. The pandemic generation might have to give up valuing even these things.

The FIRE movement could expand in this future, but to be successful I suspect the discussion would have to shift away from "look at how well VTSAX does when held for 10 years!" and "I learned Javascript and now earn six figures!" and "I installed my own marble countertops and saved $1k!" which still hints at the value set of stuff accumulation. It would have to shift towards "our family car is covered in rust and we DGAF!" or "I converted my whole front and back yards to a vegetable garden. Neighbors don't know what to think!." or "talk me out of getting rid of my last internet-connected device". There is the opportunity to create local cells of radical stoics devoted to mutual aid, cultural resistance, and social support, like the fraternal clubs and societies that existed in the early 20th century. The cult could become a real counterculture movement.

This is far-fetched of course. Mustachians have little incentive to recruit others to the movement, and are largely still of the mindset that they don't need others to succeed. What recruitment has occurred has been through for-profit social media, not tireless volunteers. It's far more likely that a cult of personality forms around the generation of post-Trump / post-Sanders political leaders, or that nothing changes except the frame of reference for consumeristic competition shifts downscale and everyone accepts being miserable as they do now.

maizefolk

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2020, 10:04:45 PM »
The FIRE movement could expand in this future, but to be successful I suspect the discussion would have to shift away from "look at how well VTSAX does when held for 10 years!" and "I learned Javascript and now earn six figures!" and "I installed my own marble countertops and saved $1k!" which still hints at the value set of stuff accumulation. It would have to shift towards "our family car is covered in rust and we DGAF!" or "I converted my whole front and back yards to a vegetable garden. Neighbors don't know what to think!." or "talk me out of getting rid of my last internet-connected device". There is the opportunity to create local cells of radical stoics devoted to mutual aid, cultural resistance, and social support, like the fraternal clubs and societies that existed in the early 20th century. The cult could become a real counterculture movement.

The problem I see with your second set of hypothetical quotes as ideas to build a movement around is that they aren't describing positive values but simply the absence of destructive ones. I don't care what my car looks like, I don't care what my neighbors think, I don't care about having an internet connection.

In a vacuum I think it is very hard to form a movement around shared absence of values rather than the shared presence of values. For individual MMMers we tend to also have positive values, but they don't align as well. Some people put a lot of value and importance into raising children, or advocating for environmental causes, or personal exercise and physical fitness, or all sorts of other things. Removing some materialistic and "what would the neighbors think" values makes more room for these.

It's also why I think an MMM intentional community would run into a lot of trouble. Everyone's on the same journey but to wildly different destinations.

LWYRUP

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2020, 11:18:40 PM »
This is a great discussion.

A sustainable mass movement can't just be running away from something but has to be moving towards something else.  So I really don't think giving away internet devices is going to do it.  But maybe, "How was your weekend in Vegas?  Yeah, hangovers blow man.  Me?  I actually finished restoring my deck and making some homebrew -- it feels great to accomplish things with my hands after doing computer work all week."

Or substitute gardening, restoring old electronics, cooking, upcycling, or even just skipping the rock concert for garage band practice.

JGS1980

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2020, 08:27:26 AM »
This reminds me of an old MMM post about building/making/converting a new type of City with Mustachian values:

I'd be interested in living in a place that prioritizes people instead of cars. Parks and green space. Bikes/walking only areas. Google FI. Community gardens. Trucks/Tools of any sort to be borrowed or rented for a yearly subscription. A "help a neighbor" kind of attitude. Home made beers on the front porch with neighbors.

Kind of like the Mennonites but with more alcohol.

SunnyDays

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2020, 09:31:04 AM »
The last few posts remind me of a quote I read in a local newspaper (can't remember who said it):  "When did we go from being citizens to being consumers?"

So what did citizens do that consumers don't?  My guess is actually making the world a better place for those around them, and not just a better LOOKING place.

bacchi

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2020, 09:48:44 AM »
I think the rise of social media helps those unrealistic expectations because you have a peek into people's homes. Everyone loves posting a pic of their adorable tot making cookies on the granite countertop with stainless steel appliances and a KitchenAid mixer in the background.

I've seen this as a landlord. My unvoiced thoughts are, "The rentals with granite and stainless are a few miles away and they're 50% more. Good luck."

OtherJen

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2020, 09:54:29 AM »
The last few posts remind me of a quote I read in a local newspaper (can't remember who said it):  "When did we go from being citizens to being consumers?"

So what did citizens do that consumers don't?  My guess is actually making the world a better place for those around them, and not just a better LOOKING place.

I like this.

I, for one, would love to lose the expectation that one's house must be Pinterest-perfect and one must take Instagram-worthy vacations multiple times per year. Let's be better citizens, instead.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 09:56:25 AM by OtherJen »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2020, 10:25:24 AM »
IDK. Rejection of a value is a judgement in itself. If I decide that 75% of what most other people do is useless or what they think is wrong, that positions me as a cultural rejectionist regardless of what I decide is valuable. That attitude makes me an outlier, a nonconformist, and an oddity, which isolates me from mainstream people and forces me to look for others like myself. That attitude also means I, and anyone who thinks like me, will have the shared experience of swimming against the current and being surrounded by invitations to deviate from my values or objectives. The struggle itself is a sharable thing.

@maizeman makes a good point that not everyone likes or wants the same things, and therefore once a group of Mustachians move beyond financial independence, the group might go 1,000 separate ways to pursue their next goals. However, a lot of intentional communities already function this way and do just fine. People use college fraternities and sororities to enrich their lives as college students and then move on to other things. Very few boy scouts or girl scouts make it to the top ranks or become adult leaders. People quit their labor unions and professional societies when they change careers, and then they join new ones.

@LWYRUP
In terms of cultural mass movements, people who joined the 1960s counterculture were running away from Vietnam, restrictions on their sexual behaviors, and the forced conformism of the 1950s. They did have a vision of a better world, and much of that vision involved the absence of things that were currently factors in their lives, like the war, racism, Nixon, Goldwater, and the relentless pressure to have a lifestyle exactly like everyone else's. One could say that environmentalists have a vision that is the negation of pollution or that anti-abortion activists have a vision of a world without abortion. Modernist architecture could be described as an attempt to run away from the texture and complex forms of earlier styles. All of these movements involved a judgement that the world would be better off without certain things and that was enough. Why couldn't Mustachians unite around a vision of a world or a life without credit card debt, SUV leases, McMansions, $100 haircuts, 4 hours of TV per day, drive-through junk food, etc?

nereo

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2020, 10:33:10 AM »

I, for one, would love to lose the expectation that one's house must be Pinterest-perfect and one must take Instagram-worthy vacations multiple times per year. Let's be better citizens, instead.
The trick is to stop caring. I've learned that people who post Instagram-worthy vacations or have Pintrest-perfect homes care a great deal about what you think about them... but they don't really care whether you do the same.
Envy's a bitch...

maizefolk

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2020, 10:50:14 AM »
@maizeman makes a good point that not everyone likes or wants the same things, and therefore once a group of Mustachians move beyond financial independence, the group might go 1,000 separate ways to pursue their next goals. However, a lot of intentional communities already function this way and do just fine. People use college fraternities and sororities to enrich their lives as college students and then move on to other things. Very few boy scouts or girl scouts make it to the top ranks or become adult leaders. People quit their labor unions and professional societies when they change careers, and then they join new ones.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. Yes if you are picturing something more like a fraternity sorority in that it would be a place people live for a number of years during the journey to financial independence I think it would be possible to get a much more cohesive community than I was imagining. The challenge then becomes much more logistical since pre-FI many people have less freedom in terms of where to move often being tied to either a particular job or a category of jobs that exists in some geographic locals but not others.

A post-FI community is much more feasible logistically, but that's where my concerns about actually having shared values/interests (rather than shared absence of certain values/interests) would be a bigger issue.

ditheca

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2020, 11:03:00 AM »
Not to mention the fact that kids who previously got free or reduced lunches aren't getting that now...

My kids are getting free lunches for the first time ever. In my county, the schools are all closed, but they are still offering free lunch to any child who can come get it. Biking to school to pick up lunch has become one of my kids favorite parts of the day.

Cassie

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2020, 12:02:15 PM »
My parents lived through the depression so we’re frugal but also enjoyed their retirement and spent their money. We are in our 60’s and are similar. My kids not so much. They said when this is over they plan on saving. In fact their lease is up in June and they are downsizing from a 2 bedroom apartment to one which will save them 700/month.

OtherJen

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Re: Will the Millennial Generation become Super-Savers?
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2020, 01:34:54 PM »

I, for one, would love to lose the expectation that one's house must be Pinterest-perfect and one must take Instagram-worthy vacations multiple times per year. Let's be better citizens, instead.
The trick is to stop caring. I've learned that people who post Instagram-worthy vacations or have Pintrest-perfect homes care a great deal about what you think about them... but they don't really care whether you do the same.
Envy's a bitch...

I already don’t do those things and don’t want to, but I would like family and friends to stop treating us like the poor relations because we choose to save and invest our money instead of spending it on things.