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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 11:33:51 AM

Title: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 11:33:51 AM
I know too many people drowning in student loan debt...Just 2 examples are below:


-A 37 year old friend of mine whose married with a 10 year old and a 3 month old, about to go through a divorce, with $160K in private student loans (has a BA and a MBA, both from top tier schools making about $65k but just got laid off)


-A single childless 36 year old relative of mine with $85k in private loan debt from an MBA with an online university currently working in property management (same industry as prior to receiving their MBA 5 years ago) making about $50K


I guess I'm a bit of a worrier, but I'm in the same age range and my loans aren't paid off yet (but will be soon God willing).  However, I know a good deal of people going into their 40s with tens and tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt alone (some of which who are about to take on more student loan debt to get another degree in the HOPES of increasing their market value to earn more income to pay off the debt!).  What this means is they can't save anything for retirement before their 40s because they're just starting to pay on student loans in their 30s and 40s. 

I know I'm a bit of a worrier.  But I fear increases in social security payout age, severely underfunded retirement accounts and increased healthcare costs for my generation could be such a drastically different quality of life for me and my friends/peers/relatives around my age than what I witnessed my grandparents live growing up in their house that dare I say the future for Gen Y specifically just seems a little bleak??
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 30, 2016, 12:19:11 PM
They borrowed the money I'm not paying their debt bc they don't understand math.

Will the govt stop allowing private universities to take advantage of the system and regulate them. Maybe. But as for those people who can't understand what they are doing I don't feel sorry for them. 

You control your future, what you do, how you spend money. If you can't sustain yourself with out govt subsidies you're doing everything wrong.

This is about the most complainy pants post I've seen on here in a long time.

I'm a millenial I graduated with no debt.  Thanks to working on the summers and scholarships. I got a degree with great pay in a STEM field.

This post doesn't even deserve a response.

But get off your ass and set your own path and stop worrying about crap the govt does.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: lbmustache on January 30, 2016, 12:23:50 PM
I know too many people drowning in student loan debt...Just 2 examples are below:


-A 37 year old friend of mine whose married with a 10 year old and a 3 month old, about to go through a divorce, with $160K in private student loans (has a BA and a MBA, both from top tier schools making about $65k but just got laid off)


-A single childless 36 year old relative of mine with $85k in private loan debt from an MBA with an online university currently working in property management (same industry as prior to receiving their MBA 5 years ago) making about $50K


I guess I'm a bit of a worrier, but I'm in the same age range and my loans aren't paid off yet (but will be soon God willing).  However, I know a good deal of people going into their 40s with tens and tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt alone (some of which who are about to take on more student loan debt to get another degree in the HOPES of increasing their market value to earn more income to pay off the debt!). What this means is they can't save anything for retirement before their 40s because they're just starting to pay on student loans in their 30s and 40s. 

I know I'm a bit of a worrier.  But I fear increases in social security payout age, severely underfunded retirement accounts and increased healthcare costs for my generation could be such a drastically different quality of life for me and my friends/peers/relatives around my age than what I witnessed my grandparents live growing up in their house that dare I say the future for Gen Y specifically just seems a little bleak??

The part I bolded is just people being stupid.

I'm conflicted on student loans because I believe education should be free/cheap as possible and the system is designed to prey on young people with no financial clue. But how do people take out over $100k of loans and they're majoring in Art or something equally low paying... come on now.

The part I italicized is poor money management for most people. Aren't most people doing IBR? But, most people would rather get a car, go out, buy clothes, eat dinner out every day, etc. than put 10% of their income towards retirement. Of course there are exceptions to this and you have people who are legitimately struggling. Not trying to discount the experiences or reality for them.

Also, aren't loans forgiven after 20/25 years? Then comes the issue of paying taxes on the remaining amount, but you would not have $200k of loans hanging over your head. Just $200k worth of income to pay taxes on... ha.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 12:30:23 PM
They borrowed the money I'm not paying their debt bc they don't understand math.

Will the govt stop allowing private universities to take advantage of the system and regulate them. Maybe. But as for those people who can't understand what they are doing I don't feel sorry for them. 

You control your future, what you do, how you spend money. If you can't sustain yourself with out govt subsidies you're doing everything wrong.

This is about the most complainy pants post I've seen on here in a long time.

I'm a millenial I graduated with no debt.  Thanks to working on the summers and scholarships. I got a degree with great pay in a STEM field.

This post doesn't even deserve a response.

But get off your ass and set your own path and stop worrying about crap the govt does.

Wow...that was really mean but I get your disgust since you assumed I meant that you need to be paying for my friends' student loan debt.   

For the record as I mentioned above my debt is going to be paid off.  But the story I posted above is the reality of a huge majority of the people around me in my age group.  Yes there are others who had fully funded or partially funded educations and are doing/will do fine.  But for those who clearly aren't/will not be I wonder what can be done and what is the answer.

But you are right that many people do not understand what they are doing by taking out huge student loans or else they wouldn't be doing it.  However, for many people who thought that taking on the debt would lead to better jobs and higher salaries, it has not.  The rationale in taking on the debt was based on the logic that it would lead to an improvement in their quality of life and more independence down the road...not the opposite. 

So you're not in the situation yourself and/or perhaps cannot relate to people who are, does not negate the fact that this reality will impact more than the people who are actually in this specific situation. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Capsu78 on January 30, 2016, 12:49:51 PM
It won't get reformed because its a racket with way too many snouts, both in the public sector and private sector at the feeding trough. 
It will collapse under it's own weight with few winners and many losers. That which can't be sustained indefinitely, won't be.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: use2betrix on January 30, 2016, 01:00:19 PM
They borrowed the money I'm not paying their debt bc they don't understand math.

Will the govt stop allowing private universities to take advantage of the system and regulate them. Maybe. But as for those people who can't understand what they are doing I don't feel sorry for them. 

You control your future, what you do, how you spend money. If you can't sustain yourself with out govt subsidies you're doing everything wrong.

This is about the most complainy pants post I've seen on here in a long time.

I'm a millenial I graduated with no debt.  Thanks to working on the summers and scholarships. I got a degree with great pay in a STEM field.

This post doesn't even deserve a response.

But get off your ass and set your own path and stop worrying about crap the govt does.

Wow...that was really mean but I get your disgust since you assumed I meant that you need to be paying for my friends' student loan debt.   

For the record as I mentioned above my debt is going to be paid off.  But the story I posted above is the reality of a huge majority of the people around me in my age group.  Yes there are others who had fully funded or partially funded educations and are doing/will do fine.  But for those who clearly aren't/will not be I wonder what can be done and what is the answer.

But you are right that many people do not understand what they are doing by taking out huge student loans or else they wouldn't be doing it.  However, for many people who thought that taking on the debt would lead to better jobs and higher salaries, it has not.  The rationale in taking on the debt was based on the logic that it would lead to an improvement in their quality of life and more independence down the road...not the opposite. 

So you're not in the situation yourself and/or perhaps cannot relate to people who are, does not negate the fact that this reality will impact more than the people who aren't in this specific situation.

The examples you mentioned aren't in that bad of shape if they lived well below their means. A person can live off 25k a year. Many on this forum do.

The post you quoted isn't "mean" it's true. "Reform" usually comes in the way of raising taxes for others, or like you said, raising the social security age. Why should others suffer due to the poor decisions of some?

FYI I finished a tech school at 21 with 40k in student loan debt. I didn't even have a degree, just a certificate. I paid off my student loan debt by the time I was 26, and could have done better.

For people with good advanced degrees, like an MBA, getting more education won't help. If they're unemployed or underemployed the problem is more likely them, not their education.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 01:04:49 PM
I know too many people drowning in student loan debt...Just 2 examples are below:


-A 37 year old friend of mine whose married with a 10 year old and a 3 month old, about to go through a divorce, with $160K in private student loans (has a BA and a MBA, both from top tier schools making about $65k but just got laid off)


-A single childless 36 year old relative of mine with $85k in private loan debt from an MBA with an online university currently working in property management (same industry as prior to receiving their MBA 5 years ago) making about $50K


I guess I'm a bit of a worrier, but I'm in the same age range and my loans aren't paid off yet (but will be soon God willing).  However, I know a good deal of people going into their 40s with tens and tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt alone (some of which who are about to take on more student loan debt to get another degree in the HOPES of increasing their market value to earn more income to pay off the debt!). What this means is they can't save anything for retirement before their 40s because they're just starting to pay on student loans in their 30s and 40s. 

I know I'm a bit of a worrier.  But I fear increases in social security payout age, severely underfunded retirement accounts and increased healthcare costs for my generation could be such a drastically different quality of life for me and my friends/peers/relatives around my age than what I witnessed my grandparents live growing up in their house that dare I say the future for Gen Y specifically just seems a little bleak??

The part I bolded is just people being stupid.

I'm conflicted on student loans because I believe education should be free/cheap as possible and the system is designed to prey on young people with no financial clue. But how do people take out over $100k of loans and they're majoring in Art or something equally low paying... come on now.

The part I italicized is poor money management for most people. Aren't most people doing IBR? But, most people would rather get a car, go out, buy clothes, eat dinner out every day, etc. than put 10% of their income towards retirement. Of course there are exceptions to this and you have people who are legitimately struggling. Not trying to discount the experiences or reality for them.

Also, aren't loans forgiven after 20/25 years? Then comes the issue of paying taxes on the remaining amount, but you would not have $200k of loans hanging over your head. Just $200k worth of income to pay taxes on... ha.

Well I will admit the bolded part is definitely not "usually" the answer. But I did see it work for one person who decided to do the MD route later in life and actually was able to start paying down the huge amounts of debt quickly despite the high volume of debt and working in a mustachian-unfriendly career. 

I didn't know they were forgiven after 20 years...public and private student loans?  Are you sure about that? 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: lbmustache on January 30, 2016, 01:07:33 PM
I didn't know they were forgiven after 20 years...public and private student loans?  Are you sure about that?

Public loans, and yes. http://www.studentdebtrelief.us/forgiveness/obama-student-loan-forgiveness/
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 01:20:11 PM
I didn't know they were forgiven after 20 years...public and private student loans?  Are you sure about that?

Public loans, and yes. http://www.studentdebtrelief.us/forgiveness/obama-student-loan-forgiveness/

Ah, ok that makes sense.  I think I heard that before but was curious if that was for private loans as I would have been shocked to hear Sallie Mae was now forgiving debt.  I've been out of college for a long time now and don't know the current rates for public versus private student loans at the moment but I know the private ones are more expensive.  Not just from an interest rate point of view but for many people I know that have advanced degrees they had to use private loans to fund them thus a higher amount of money taken out from the private lenders.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Fuzz on January 30, 2016, 03:06:09 PM
As a question of US electoral politics, no I don't see student loan reform happening. Students, young people, and the young people who are most likely to be in debt, don't tend to vote. Without votes, there isn't much of a constituency for this.

Yes, we get some Democratic throwaway lines about reforming student education and public sector employee debt forgiveness, but I'd put that at like 7th or 10th on the Democratic party priority list. Things that are that low on the list don't get done. Look at Obama. In 2010 with a historic majority in Congress and a solid majority in the Senate, he could pass whatever legislation he wanted. He got one big legislative thing done: Obamacare. That's it.

D's have been working on healthcare since the 1930s. So maybe in 80 years, they'll get around to student loan debt. I don't see how you get it done with an executive order, but I could see the next Democratic president trying to push the boundaries there.

Also, homeboy in the STEM field: I know it's fun to be blunt on this forum, but you need another English class to learn the difference between being blunt and being mean.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: alsoknownasDean on January 30, 2016, 03:25:10 PM
Chances are it'll just end up that fewer people end up getting a degree, or they leave the country after graduating.

Either outcome is poor for the US longer-term.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Murse on January 30, 2016, 04:23:48 PM
My personal opinion is it will change for future generations (free tuition) within the next 20 years, but those who have student loans at best will get their interest rate reduced.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 06:39:34 PM
They borrowed the money I'm not paying their debt bc they don't understand math.

Will the govt stop allowing private universities to take advantage of the system and regulate them. Maybe. But as for those people who can't understand what they are doing I don't feel sorry for them. 

You control your future, what you do, how you spend money. If you can't sustain yourself with out govt subsidies you're doing everything wrong.

This is about the most complainy pants post I've seen on here in a long time.

I'm a millenial I graduated with no debt.  Thanks to working on the summers and scholarships. I got a degree with great pay in a STEM field.

This post doesn't even deserve a response.

But get off your ass and set your own path and stop worrying about crap the govt does.

Wow...that was really mean but I get your disgust since you assumed I meant that you need to be paying for my friends' student loan debt.   

For the record as I mentioned above my debt is going to be paid off.  But the story I posted above is the reality of a huge majority of the people around me in my age group.  Yes there are others who had fully funded or partially funded educations and are doing/will do fine.  But for those who clearly aren't/will not be I wonder what can be done and what is the answer.

But you are right that many people do not understand what they are doing by taking out huge student loans or else they wouldn't be doing it.  However, for many people who thought that taking on the debt would lead to better jobs and higher salaries, it has not.  The rationale in taking on the debt was based on the logic that it would lead to an improvement in their quality of life and more independence down the road...not the opposite. 

So you're not in the situation yourself and/or perhaps cannot relate to people who are, does not negate the fact that this reality will impact more than the people who aren't in this specific situation.

The examples you mentioned aren't in that bad of shape if they lived well below their means. A person can live off 25k a year. Many on this forum do.

The post you quoted isn't "mean" it's true. "Reform" usually comes in the way of raising taxes for others, or like you said, raising the social security age. Why should others suffer due to the poor decisions of some?

FYI I finished a tech school at 21 with 40k in student loan debt. I didn't even have a degree, just a certificate. I paid off my student loan debt by the time I was 26, and could have done better.

For people with good advanced degrees, like an MBA, getting more education won't help. If they're unemployed or underemployed the problem is more likely them, not their education.

The way it was written part of it was matter of fact and clearly much of it was emotional and angry.  There is a way to express yourself without being overly emotional (and this is coming from a woman).  Coming from that person's perspective I shouldn't be worried about what the government does but for me I'm totally concerned and engaged in what decisions they do or do not make that might have an impact on my future quality of living...including this issue of insurmountable student loan debt.

Anyways I digress....what were you making between the ages of 21-26?  Did you live solo?  Have roommates? 

Maybe it's not as bad as it seems but in speaking to the friend with 160k in debt for instance...she says she's paying ~800 a month and only ~100 a month goes towards principal.  Now being laid off (which isn't too uncommon) she is considering taking the first job she can get even if it means a paycut lower than the $65K.  I guess in situations like that I feel like it 'is' the student loan debt that's the biggest problem because in this scenario even if she doubled up on payments her budget wouldn't allow her to start contributing hardly anything towards retirement for several years and she's already 37.  So to me the problem is not just the student loan debt amount alone but also the many years of lost retirement contributions.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 06:46:34 PM
Chances are it'll just end up that fewer people end up getting a degree, or they leave the country after graduating.

Either outcome is poor for the US longer-term.

Well, actually, that is kinda what one of my friends was mentioning to me the other day.  He told me that when he travels internationally to certain places he's scoping out places to retire.  Which may not seem too out of the blue but I asked him why and his explanation was basically that he's spent so many years paying down student loans that his retirement will likely be too underfunded to be able to live decently here so to make it easier he'd rather just move out of the US (not too far away, but somewhere his retirement funds will go further).

Yeah I know people have been retiring abroad to cheaper countries forever...but my point is I feel like his whole decision to do this was basically because of the student loans.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 30, 2016, 06:49:24 PM
Why free school. You don't need to go to college to be a tradesmen. We're runinng out of these.  The whole "college dream" and the fact that you HAVE to go to college to be successful. No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

I'm a millenial I'm personally disgusted by the entire premise of this post.

Money can be made in many ways. You have to have a will to do what it takes to get ahead and not rely on others for support

You have to be competent enough to understand money.

You want reform instead of art class in public school or drama. Teach personal finance. That's reform with a difference. Just giving the entitled kids of my generation, who all got a trophy even if they finished dead last, reform on idiotic student loans bc the people of America don't understand money is assinign.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mm1970 on January 30, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
Honestly, if I ever FIRE, I swear I'm going to go into business (in other words, donate my time) teaching kids and parents how to avoid this mess.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 06:59:04 PM
Why free school. You don't need to go to college to be a tradesmen. We're runinng out of these.  The whole "college dream" and the fact that you HAVE to go to college to be successful. No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

I'm a millenial I'm personally disgusted by the entire premise of this post.

Money can be made in many ways. You have to have a will to do what it takes to get ahead and not rely on others for support

You have to be competent enough to understand money.

You want reform instead of art class in public school or drama. Teach personal finance. That's reform with a difference. Just giving the entitled kids of my generation, who all got a trophy even if they finished dead last, reform on idiotic student loans bc the people of America don't understand money is assinign.

Well yeah, teaching personal finance would be a GREAT idea and a GREAT start to solving part of the situation.  Then there wouldn't be as many people "falling for the hype" to begin with.  Thank you for answering part of what I was asking.  All that other anger in your post I simply do not/will not understand and am quite frankly confused by what it's so hard for you to make a point without it.  Maybe you've experienced a lot of people trying to take advantage of you in your past or something.  But the people I'm talking about are good people who took out debt to get good paying jobs but the jobs aren't paying enough to pay off the debt AND pay into retirement.  I don't know anyone sitting on $100K of debt sitting at home waiting on people to bail them out so to speak.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 30, 2016, 07:04:40 PM
Bc you're complaining about something that's as simple as money management. You act like these people are screwed by their loans when they aren't they are screwed by their life choices. And fuck it if I'm gonna pay for those who wasted their money and "lived for the moment" only to turn around and ask those who saved to help them.  It's the grass hopper and the ant. If the millenials you see in your life wanna be grass hoppers that's fine. Best you can do is try to get thru to them.

If you can't who the hell cares. They will work til they're 100 bc they can't afford not to.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: alsoknownasDean on January 30, 2016, 07:11:51 PM
Why free school. You don't need to go to college to be a tradesmen. We're runinng out of these.

I don't know what it's like in the US, but skilled tradies often earn pretty good money here in Australia. Considering they'd start earning earlier and have no student loan debt, a trade might be a better move for someone who wants to retire early.

The other option (for some fields) is doing a diploma course, working for a couple of years and then going back to finish the degree later. At least then you have a bit of exposure to the field and if you don't like it, less is lost.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 07:14:32 PM
Honestly, if I ever FIRE, I swear I'm going to go into business (in other words, donate my time) teaching kids and parents how to avoid this mess.

Why not do this?  I think it's a great idea.

And it reminds me of something.  When I was in high school, my grandparents (who I was raised by) hired this local older woman who sold herself as a "student advisor" of sorts in our small town.  For a small fee, she would assist high school students in choosing a career, going to school, etc.  Well anyways, my grandparents had me pair up with her (many families in my area were hiring her); the woman advised me to attend the school I ended up graduating from.  Now, in looking back, I should have chosen a smaller, local school from the expenses perspective.  The school she chose for me was private, out of state, and EXPENSIVE requiring way more in student loans than I would have acquired if I had gone to a public state school for instance.  But after talking my 17 year old self into it, and going with me to tour the school I fell in love with it and never looked back.

Now, in my grandparents' eyes I needed that person to tell me how to handle choosing a school as they were not sure how to direct me and were probably just happy I chose to go.  All my teenage years I was told by them I'd be a waste if I didn't go to college based on my success in junior/high school, etc. and based on all of the back breaking work they had to do to make ends meet without college degrees.  But at the end of the day although *I*, at 17 (because at 17 we all made perfect financial decisions in life) chose to take on way more debt by going to the school the advisor chose for me, I know I was HEAVILY influenced by her.  Had I had someone working alongside me like you, I probably would have came out with my degree and ZERO DEBT.  Thank God I had enough sense at least to never live on campus and paid rent by working in school, as room and board would have DOUBLED my student loan debt. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 30, 2016, 07:17:09 PM
The whole going to school bc you "think" it will get you higher pay doesn't even hold water

You can go online and research what careers are in need and what those careers pay then you can pick one that you think is of you aptitude or push yourself to one outside your aptitude. If there isn't one there that involves something you can do then look to the trades. If you can't do that. Then survival of the fitest.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 07:21:30 PM
Bc you're complaining about something that's as simple as money management. You act like these people are screwed by their loans when they aren't they are screwed by their life choices. And fuck it if I'm gonna pay for those who wasted their money and "lived for the moment" only to turn around and ask those who saved to help them.  It's the grass hopper and the ant. If the millenials you see in your life wanna be grass hoppers that's fine. Best you can do is try to get thru to them.

If you can't who the hell cares. They will work til they're 100 bc they can't afford not to.

That's fine; it's your opinion and you're entitled to it of course.

Obviously what you see as me complaining I see as me being concerned.  And I justify my concern based on the thought that what's going on right now will probably impact me in some way shape or form in the future.  Hence the concern (or in your words, "complaints").

And also maybe what you see as simple I see as not that simple; if it were there wouldn't be a problem.  And I care.  If I live in a country where on average people work til 100 (because of student loan debt, not because of medical advances) when in the same country on average people used to work til 60 then that's probably not going to be a good thing for everyone regardless of if I'm one of those 100-year-old workers or not.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: randymarsh on January 30, 2016, 07:21:42 PM
I think we'll continue to see various types of "forgiveness" programs. Instead of fixing the situation, the government will just figure out ways to make payments low enough so they don't default. That's what these programs are. Default avoidance schemes.

I think we'll see a further widening of inequality. Those who graduate with little or no debt will be able to build wealth much quicker.

I think I'll be OK overall with my debt load, even though it's 65K, but there are consequences. It's very frustrating not being able to put 20 or 30% in my 401k or save a large downpayment. This is my personal issue, but I find it harder to make larger student loan payments compared to saving or investing.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on January 30, 2016, 07:26:49 PM
To answer your question: no. It used to be that you couldn't get into that much debt, but now loan sharks have taken it to a whole new level.
The real problem is degree inflation https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/catherine-rampell-the-college-degree-has-become-the-new-high-school-degree/2014/09/08/e935b68c-378a-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html

Sometimes as a society we just get things wrong. Like states de-funding their universities.

Hey boarder42: did you know that during the Great Depression people blamed it on other people's poor money management? Yeah, in hindsight we realized it wasn't. But the blame the victim mentality rears its ugly head during every crises. Fortunately your opinions don't matter, and won't change anything.

It's like polio. It's sad that there was so much needless suffering until we figured out how to eradicate it. But it is what it is.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 07:28:00 PM
I think we'll continue to see various types of "forgiveness" programs. Instead of fixing the situation, the government will just figure out ways to make payments low enough so they don't default. That's what these programs are. Default avoidance schemes.

I think we'll see a further widening of inequality. Those who graduate with little or no debt will be able to build wealth much quicker.

I think I'll be OK overall with my debt load, even though it's 65K, but there are consequences. It's very frustrating not being able to put 20 or 30% in my 401k or save a large downpayment. This is my personal issue, but I find it harder to make larger student loan payments compared to saving or investing.

And this is exactly my concern.  I hope the best for you but just the fact you're on MMM means I'm sure you'll be fine ;)

However, my 18-year-old self just didn't imagine I'd be having this conversation with half of my friends at the age of 36...where many people I know are approaching 40 but have either (a) not starting funding retirement, or (b) their retirement funds are severely underfunded.  Because of student loan debt.  I mean, there are people on this forum retiring at 40 I'm sure.  It's not like most of these people have pensions to fall back on like my grandparents who raised me had.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 07:33:10 PM
Hey boarder42: did you know that during the Great Depression people blamed it on other people's poor money management? Yeah, in hindsight we realized it wasn't. But the blame the victim mentality rears its ugly head during every crises.

This is the EXACT thought I had reading this person's posts. 

By their logic I am guessing we should also do away with bankruptcy for individuals and businesses?

Anyways I digress.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 30, 2016, 07:41:21 PM
Bc you're complaining about something that's as simple as money management. You act like these people are screwed by their loans when they aren't they are screwed by their life choices. And fuck it if I'm gonna pay for those who wasted their money and "lived for the moment" only to turn around and ask those who saved to help them.  It's the grass hopper and the ant. If the millenials you see in your life wanna be grass hoppers that's fine. Best you can do is try to get thru to them.

If you can't who the hell cares. They will work til they're 100 bc they can't afford not to.

That's fine; it's your opinion and you're entitled to it of course.

Obviously what you see as me complaining I see as me being concerned.  And I justify my concern based on the thought that what's going on right now will probably impact me in some way shape or form in the future.  Hence the concern (or in your words, "complaints").

And also maybe what you see as simple I see as not that simple; if it were there wouldn't be a problem.  And I care.  If I live in a country where on average people work til 100 (because of student loan debt, not because of medical advances) when in the same country on average people used to work til 60 then that's probably not going to be a good thing for everyone regardless of if I'm one of those 100-year-old workers or not.

Everyone used to work til they died retirement is a newer thing as far as life goes over time. Its not a right its a privilege.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 30, 2016, 07:45:12 PM
The premise of the post ie title is entirely written incorrectly.

Will student loan reform come would be an acceptable question.

But to isolate it to a generation that is almost complete thru their college careers makes no sense. Your post is basically saying some one bail out gen y.

And that I take offense to.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on January 30, 2016, 09:07:01 PM
It used to be that, if you lived past working age, you went to live with your kids. Baby Boomers are the ones who are screwed because they have less time to adjust to the new reality. And by screwed I mean they will have to adjust to a lower quality of life than they were expecting.

But I do think that Gen Y should get a bail out. I think everyone should get a basic minimum income from the government with free college. But that's because I'm a bleeding heart liberal who thinks that the purpose of civilization is to make everyone's live easier, not harder.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: LeRainDrop on January 30, 2016, 09:08:05 PM
If I live in a country where on average people work til 100 (because of student loan debt, not because of medical advances) when in the same country on average people used to work til 60 then that's probably not going to be a good thing for everyone regardless of if I'm one of those 100-year-old workers or not.

Wait, what country do you live in where the average person works till 100 years old?  Or are you thinking that in a single generation, the life expectancy of Americans will jump from 78 years to beyond 100 years, and the average person will still be working at 100?  I don't think that's even possible.  Anyway...

I do feel bad for the people who are generally making good choices, sacrificing the non-necessities, and working hard to raise their families, yet continue to suffer oppressive loans on which they can barely make a dent in the principal, let alone save for retirement.  That must be a very emotionally draining experience to live.  That said, I tend to think most people get to the place of being smothered by the loans as a result of their own choices compounded.  Some of the worst are the ones who go back to school for more debt just to delay beginning repayment.

I am younger than both of the people EconDiva cited in her original post, and I entered the workforce with around $120k in student loans.  I did my best to be frugal and make hard choices not to spend my money on wants.  As a result, I fully repaid 100% of my loans all on my own and I am well-poised for early retirement down the line.  So, for those of us who really buckled down and fulfilled our financial responsibilities vis-a-vis student loans, why is it fair to us to then have to bail out the other people who did not save/spend as prudently?  Why should they get a special deal on their obligations, when we did not?
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on January 30, 2016, 09:12:45 PM
If I live in a country where on average people work til 100 (because of student loan debt, not because of medical advances) when in the same country on average people used to work til 60 then that's probably not going to be a good thing for everyone regardless of if I'm one of those 100-year-old workers or not.

Wait, what country do you live in where the average person works till 100 years old?  Or are you thinking that in a single generation, the life expectancy of Americans will jump from 78 years to beyond 100 years, and the average person will still be working at 100?  I don't think that's even possible.  Anyway...

You have to read the post that I quoted/was responding to for reference.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: LeRainDrop on January 30, 2016, 09:17:20 PM
If I live in a country where on average people work til 100 (because of student loan debt, not because of medical advances) when in the same country on average people used to work til 60 then that's probably not going to be a good thing for everyone regardless of if I'm one of those 100-year-old workers or not.

Wait, what country do you live in where the average person works till 100 years old?  Or are you thinking that in a single generation, the life expectancy of Americans will jump from 78 years to beyond 100 years, and the average person will still be working at 100?  I don't think that's even possible.  Anyway...

You have to read the post that I quoted/was responding to for reference.

Ohhhh, I missed that line.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on January 30, 2016, 09:22:22 PM
Quote
I am younger than both of the people EconDiva cited in her original post, and I entered the workforce with around $120k in student loans.  I did my best to be frugal and make hard choices not to spend my money on wants.  As a result, I fully repaid 100% of my loans all on my own and I am well-poised for early retirement down the line.  So, for those of us who really buckled down and fulfilled our financial responsibilities vis-a-vis student loans, why is it fair to us to then have to bail out the other people who did not save/spend as prudently?  Why should they get a special deal on their obligations, when we did not?

Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: LeRainDrop on January 30, 2016, 09:44:48 PM
LeRainDrop: you take for granted all the information you had and your ability to think through things. When you are poor you have something called the "poverty mindset" where it's hard to think about the big picture. Even though I paid off my loans, I think everyone else's should be forgiven. I think there is about a 2% chance of people figuring out everything I figured out. It took a shitload of therapy, reading, and a ton of privilege to get where I am today. It's hard for you to relate to people who make "poor" choices. These people are making the best choices they know to make, based on the information they have.

Oh, no, I don't take that for granted at all.  I know that I grew up with a lot of privilege and that has worked to my benefit in many, many ways.  That's part of why I said that I strongly empathize with the many people who are making the best choices they know how to, yet continue to be smothered by the weight of their loans, let alone save for retirement.  I fully acknowledge that a lot of people entered into agreements for student loans coming from a very disadvantaged place, even poverty, where college was pushed as the key to success and somehow the money would magically work itself out.  That is an unfair burden to expect many of them to carry.

But many of the people who find themselves in the "student loan crisis" do not come from poverty and are not living in poverty.  I have plenty of peers who came from the same privilege -- e.g., better pre-college education, better access to technology/internet, family not stretched so thin -- who still made choices that led to over-sized loans that they are not making much progress on, and yet they continue to find all sorts of room for expensive frivolities in their budgets.  So, how do you find a fair middle ground?  It'd be easier for me to agree that we should help those in poverty, as we already do, but why should we help the people who were given all sorts of privileges, and the smarts to make good choices, but they simply decide to make the more fun choices, to spend on wants rather than save?  As a policy matter, how do you find a fair middle ground?  This is a struggle, and I certainly don't pretend to have any answers.

P.S. Props for linking to the "degree inflation" article by my friend's little sis.  I agree it's a real problem.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: ender on January 31, 2016, 06:49:44 AM
I hope so.

Right now, many lenders profit at the expense of 17/18 year olds who often have no clue what they are doing.

The people who I would say are to "blame" for problems with student loans:

[li]17/18 year olds - it's possible for them to make wise decisions, but for most the deck is stacked against them[/li][/list]

Frankly speaking, I don't like how many people with significant student loan debt that because of their circumstances basically had minimal or no choice in their decision at an early age that affects them for the rest of their lives.

To not expect some reform when institutions are profiting at the expense of kids who do not have enough education/experience to make informed decisions seems quite short sighted.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: justajane on January 31, 2016, 07:00:58 AM
No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

It's hard to take much of what you are saying seriously when you make statements like this. In fact, I would argue that much of what you write, which lacks clarity and displays a tunnel-visioned view of what is causing high student loan debt (To paraphrase: "It's them dumb underwater basket weavers who didn't major in a STEM field!"), underscores the ongoing importance of the liberal arts and the humanities.   
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 07:27:06 AM
Correct.

Avg cost of in state 4 yr degree is 40k currently. Then you add on room and board of call it 8k a year and your around 70k. And that's being generous.

This amount of debt isn't outrageous for any competent person if they chose a field in which people are paying you money to do a job. Avg salary for 4 year degree 45k.

So you have hair on fire debt and a great starting salary at 45k. You should be living off ramen and oats and paying it down. But let's just assume  you're putting 50% of your income towards them and living off 23k a year. Very doable. Your loans would be gone in 4 years max.

Now the flip side you decided to get a masters or go to a private school and obtain a degree that pays 45k still. Well that's your choice and society shouldn't support your bad decision.  Or say you racked up that debt exploring and finding yourself and found out you're a lazy bum who isn't cut out for higher learning.

I mean someone show me a point where society should be accountable for someone's decisions of this nature. You made the choice you racked up the debt.

Everyone doesn't need to go to college. Everyone isn't cut out for it. The reason prices keep rising is bc demand is going up. It's simple supply and demand.  We currently have more people obtaining higher education in either a field that doesn't have a demand for more educated people in and we have people who should becoming tradesmen going to college and then realizing that. 

College education is a privilege not a right.

Guess what avg salary for an apprentice is 30k per year and that doesn't count overtime. Those guys usually pull in 50-60k. Avg time to become a journeyman 2-6 years. Guess what let's take the avg of that 4 years. That's the same as a 4 year degree. Avg journeyman makes 50k per year after it most pull in 70-80k. So they get paid to learn their trade and come out of their "degree" program making more than the 4 year college grad.

You signed a contract to rack up your debt society didn't.

The only reform that should happen would be to teach personal finance and get rid of what online schools can do to take advantage of the system.

Any reform of debt already acrued that impacts other govt programs already in place is unacceptable.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 31, 2016, 07:46:39 AM
Chances are it'll just end up that fewer people end up getting a degree, or they leave the country after graduating.

Either outcome is poor for the US longer-term.
In my experience, people who complain the most about their student debt are not the kind of people with the chops to pack up and move to a different country, even one where they speak the same language. Immigrating anywhere worth immigrating to takes a little more resourcefulness than most are willing to dedicate to the matter. It is a lot easier to bitch about being stuck into a shitty system and doing nothing about it.

The first world countries in Western Europe are always a crowd favorite (free tuition! free healthcare! neither of which is exactly true, btw), but they don't take too kindly on broke Americans showing up uninvited, and they certainly won't hold their hand doing so.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on January 31, 2016, 10:04:05 AM
Quote
So, how do you find a fair middle ground?  It'd be easier for me to agree that we should help those in poverty, as we already do, but why should we help the people who were given all sorts of privileges, and the smarts to make good choices, but they simply decide to make the more fun choices, to spend on wants rather than save?

Those people still have the poverty mindset. You don't have to live in poverty to have it. And you can't know if someone else is smart/privileged. We can only guess at what their life was like. Take the marshmallow test. Kids who pass the test (wait for the second marshmallow) are shown to have better outcomes in life, because they understand delayed gratification. So you might assume that the kids who ate the marshmallow are stupid somehow. But the reason they eat the marshmallow is because they don't trust adults. So they made a rational choice by eating the marshmallow.

There is no such thing as "fairness." That's something that adults tell children to make them shut up. We as a society can decide to take care of each other or not.

Quote
This amount of debt isn't outrageous for any competent person if they chose a field in which people are paying you money to do a job. Avg salary for 4 year degree 45k.
What is a competent person? Someone who has the exact information about how society works than you do? I love my fellow humans, but you are making a lot of assumptions about their abilities.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: GrOW on January 31, 2016, 10:36:39 AM
Reform? Boy that term can mean alot of different things to alot of different people.

Unsecured loans guaranteed by people without a job but the hopes of getting one. And our government says the rates should be lower. Really?

Loans are not based on degree and future earning potential. Borrowers line up to get them without considering their future income.

Starting your career with a negative net worth and likely little financial education on what that really means. A bad recipe for sure.

Too little focus on the responsibility of the borrowers and their parents/advisers.

Yep. Lots of opportunities for reform.

*Please note that these are broad brushstroke thoughts and I am certain that many people, visitors of this forum or not, have made hay while getting large student loans.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 11:52:39 AM
Quote
So, how do you find a fair middle ground?  It'd be easier for me to agree that we should help those in poverty, as we already do, but why should we help the people who were given all sorts of privileges, and the smarts to make good choices, but they simply decide to make the more fun choices, to spend on wants rather than save?

Those people still have the poverty mindset. You don't have to live in poverty to have it. And you can't know if someone else is smart/privileged. We can only guess at what their life was like. Take the marshmallow test. Kids who pass the test (wait for the second marshmallow) are shown to have better outcomes in life, because they understand delayed gratification. So you might assume that the kids who ate the marshmallow are stupid somehow. But the reason they eat the marshmallow is because they don't trust adults. So they made a rational choice by eating the marshmallow.

There is no such thing as "fairness." That's something that adults tell children to make them shut up. We as a society can decide to take care of each other or not.

Quote
This amount of debt isn't outrageous for any competent person if they chose a field in which people are paying you money to do a job. Avg salary for 4 year degree 45k.
What is a competent person? Someone who has the exact information about how society works than you do? I love my fellow humans, but you are making a lot of assumptions about their abilities.

If we follow your path we will surely devolve. Survival of the fittest.  You work to you ability or have friends or family that choose to support your lack of ability. You spend to your ability. And save to your ability. If I decided I wanted to quit my six figure job to pursue my internal passionnof sitting on my ass I would have to live with that choice not expect the coworkers I left to fund my choice.

That's what you're saying at the heart. We should take care of everyone regardless of the choice they made. Sweet. I'll let you act on your bleeding heart liberal self. I'll draw up a contract and I'll quit my job and you can support me for the rest of your life to the standard of living that I'm entitled to as another human. I'll define what that standard is for you. Since I as a human am entitled to it.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: LeRainDrop on January 31, 2016, 11:57:29 AM
Quote
So, how do you find a fair middle ground?  It'd be easier for me to agree that we should help those in poverty, as we already do, but why should we help the people who were given all sorts of privileges, and the smarts to make good choices, but they simply decide to make the more fun choices, to spend on wants rather than save?

Those people still have the poverty mindset. You don't have to live in poverty to have it. And you can't know if someone else is smart/privileged. We can only guess at what their life was like. . . . There is no such thing as "fairness." That's something that adults tell children to make them shut up. We as a society can decide to take care of each other or not.

For some people, it is true that they have the poverty mindset, despite having never lived in poverty.  But for many others, I disagree.  Many live in the "affluenza" or entitled mindset -- they come from well/better-off family, and naturally feel their parents' achievements should be the same starting point for them coming out of college.  There is also a middle ground where the people are smart enough, but they've allowed themselves to follow the herd insofar as vacations, consumerism, etc.

You see it all the time among siblings from the same family where the children all have similar privileges, intellectual abilities, and guidance from parents, yet the way they treat college and come out of it can be very different.  Take my family as an example -- three kids with great privileges.  My first brother had all the same as my second brother and I did -- parents who were supportive of him in every way, high intelligence scores, great schooling, etc. -- yet he decided to skip many classes, get involved in partying/drugs, spend all of the money he ever earned, quit whatever jobs he managed to get, switch colleges multiple times, and not finish his very last college paper, thus not actually earning the damn degree.  Do you want to pay back his student loans for him?
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on January 31, 2016, 12:49:25 PM
The problem is that you both (LeRainDrop and boarder42) think that making college free, or forgiving loans hurts individuals. I didn't say that I personally should be paying anybody's loans back. If the government chooses to forgive loans that doesn't affect me. Neither of you can see the forest for the trees. As a society if we choose to make grade school free, we can do the same for college.

Quote
Do you want to pay back his student loans for him?

I wouldn't want to personally, but I do think they should be forgiven. Maybe he has un-diagnosed depression? We can decide as a society that people shouldn't be allowed to get into so much trouble if they don't make the "correct" choice. It's a slippery slope to say who deserves what on a case by case basis.

Alright you guys can have the last word. Say something crazy about humans devolving or some such.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: GrOW on January 31, 2016, 12:55:37 PM
Grade school free? For the lowest income families, maybe. To everyone else, hardly. Property taxes, local taxes, fundraisers, helping to stock the teacher's supplies, school functions, and on and on. Some would add fees for after school activities, tutoring to help a child stuck in a below average school, and parking fees.

Cheaper than private school, you bet. But far from free.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 31, 2016, 01:09:51 PM
I would like to see these loans become dischargeable in bankruptcy. If someone has so much debt and so little income after their education that they're willing to go to court and ruin their credit for seven years to clear it away, let them. Maybe the banks would then have a real incentive to take a look at a student's earning potential and existing debt load before giving them more loans.

I don't think it's right to just "forgive" the debt though. These are legal adults who should have known what they were getting into. Sometimes the best lessons are the ones you learn outside of the classroom.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 31, 2016, 01:39:04 PM
The problem is that you both (LeRainDrop and boarder42) think that making college free, or forgiving loans hurts individuals.
Forgiving loans too liberally undermines the societal expectation that entering into contracts is a binding agreement. It's about the signals you send.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Capsu78 on January 31, 2016, 02:12:52 PM
No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

It's hard to take much of what you are saying seriously when you make statements like this. In fact, I would argue that much of what you write, which lacks clarity and displays a tunnel-visioned view of what is causing high student loan debt (To paraphrase: "It's them dumb underwater basket weavers who didn't major in a STEM field!"), underscores the ongoing importance of the liberal arts and the humanities.

As someone with a BA from an LA program, I used to agree you Jane...but looking at the syllabus for most LA classes today doesn't resemble what I was taught in the least... Dare I say it's been hijacked by grey pony tailed activist cry bullies not preparing undergrads for real world skills that I wouldn't pay an employee "jack shit" for.   
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 02:33:49 PM
The problem is that you both (LeRainDrop and boarder42) think that making college free, or forgiving loans hurts individuals. I didn't say that I personally should be paying anybody's loans back. If the government chooses to forgive loans that doesn't affect me. Neither of you can see the forest for the trees. As a society if we choose to make grade school free, we can do the same for college.

Quote
Do you want to pay back his student loans for him?

I wouldn't want to personally, but I do think they should be forgiven. Maybe he has un-diagnosed depression? We can decide as a society that people shouldn't be allowed to get into so much trouble if they don't make the "correct" choice. It's a slippery slope to say who deserves what on a case by case basis.

Alright you guys can have the last word. Say something crazy about humans devolving or some such.

someone has to PAY for it ... its not FREE if the govt is funding it YOU are funding it thru your taxes.... how do you not understand this.  If "society" as you call it should pay for these things YOU are paying for them the govt just doesnt(shouldnt) pull money from trees and invent more of it ... come on man...

show me a situation where the GOVT funds what you speak and SOCIETY pays nothing for it ... its not possible move to france it will benefit your attitude towards your beliefs
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Cathy on January 31, 2016, 02:36:54 PM
I would like to see these loans become dischargeable in bankruptcy.

In the United States, student loans are already dischargeable in bankruptcy, as I discussed in a past post (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/guy-with-$170k-student-loan-debt-sues-law-school/msg918241/#msg918241).
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 02:40:12 PM
I would like to see these loans become dischargeable in bankruptcy. If someone has so much debt and so little income after their education that they're willing to go to court and ruin their credit for seven years to clear it away, let them. Maybe the banks would then have a real incentive to take a look at a student's earning potential and existing debt load before giving them more loans.

I don't think it's right to just "forgive" the debt though. These are legal adults who should have known what they were getting into. Sometimes the best lessons are the ones you learn outside of the classroom.

hell no ... law, medical,all higher education students would do this.  who they hell cares about the dumb credit hit ... the reason student loans are not forgivable is for the very reason of filing bankruptcy immediately following college.  do you not understand how easy this would be to manipulate.  yes your post was with good intentions but there is a fundamental reason they are not forgivable b/c most graduate college with debt and how easy would it be to file bankruptcy and wipe those out. 

apparently a court gave discharge to one dude for these but making it common place is beyond dumb.  thats basically making it a social system where you just can buy a house for a few years but graduate debt free.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 02:42:13 PM
No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

It's hard to take much of what you are saying seriously when you make statements like this. In fact, I would argue that much of what you write, which lacks clarity and displays a tunnel-visioned view of what is causing high student loan debt (To paraphrase: "It's them dumb underwater basket weavers who didn't major in a STEM field!"), underscores the ongoing importance of the liberal arts and the humanities.

As someone with a BA from an LA program, I used to agree you Jane...but looking at the syllabus for most LA classes today doesn't resemble what I was taught in the least... Dare I say it's been hijacked by grey pony tailed activist cry bullies not preparing undergrads for real world skills that I wouldn't pay an employee "jack shit" for.   

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Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Weedy Acres on January 31, 2016, 02:45:45 PM
I didn't say that I personally should be paying anybody's loans back. If the government chooses to forgive loans that doesn't affect me.

Um, hello, where do you think the government gets its money?  From trees?
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: justajane on January 31, 2016, 03:09:34 PM
No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

It's hard to take much of what you are saying seriously when you make statements like this. In fact, I would argue that much of what you write, which lacks clarity and displays a tunnel-visioned view of what is causing high student loan debt (To paraphrase: "It's them dumb underwater basket weavers who didn't major in a STEM field!"), underscores the ongoing importance of the liberal arts and the humanities.

As someone with a BA from an LA program, I used to agree you Jane...but looking at the syllabus for most LA classes today doesn't resemble what I was taught in the least... Dare I say it's been hijacked by grey pony tailed activist cry bullies not preparing undergrads for real world skills that I wouldn't pay an employee "jack shit" for.   

Can you provide some examples of this supposed shift? Some actual course names or descriptions from actual universities that bother you? And can you please provide a link to the department so that we can know this is "most liberal arts classes today" and not a cherry-picked list?

In other words, let's deal in specifics and not in generalities.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 03:19:16 PM
So justajane give a certified case and point of why liberal arts and humanities should be taught at the level they are being taught now. And then reference the cost of that education to the probability of receiving a job in your degree field and being paid well enough to support yourself without society stepping in.

Bc as far as this post is concerned your only argument would be that people who got stem degrees should fund the LA degree people's choice to do what they want. 

Art actually used to be a science. How to get the pigments you want to last on a canvas and maintain that color. It was a research science and a way of documenting pictoral history.  Now we do all that with a camera that can cost 10bucks.

Davinci and van gogh etc were on the cutting edges of pictoral history. An art degree now. Isn't stem. Then it was.

Society is evolving.

Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: LeRainDrop on January 31, 2016, 03:26:14 PM
The problem is that you both (LeRainDrop and boarder42) think that making college free, or forgiving loans hurts individuals. I didn't say that I personally should be paying anybody's loans back. If the government chooses to forgive loans that doesn't affect me. Neither of you can see the forest for the trees. As a society if we choose to make grade school free, we can do the same for college. . . .

Alright you guys can have the last word. Say something crazy about humans devolving or some such.

As I have said from my very first post here, I empathize with the many people who are struggling with overwhelming student loan debt, it is an unfair burden to expect many of them to carry, I think there should be something done to help many of them, but I don't have the answers as to precisely what.  My posts have been consistent from the outset that I see both sides of the argument, and I do not come out on the side of doing nothing to help.  Please stop lumping me in with boarder42 because I have never once agreed with him or said anything flameworthy about this situation.  My position is that this is a very difficult issue to handle, and I personally do not know how to do it.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: randymarsh on January 31, 2016, 03:42:37 PM
No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

It's hard to take much of what you are saying seriously when you make statements like this. In fact, I would argue that much of what you write, which lacks clarity and displays a tunnel-visioned view of what is causing high student loan debt (To paraphrase: "It's them dumb underwater basket weavers who didn't major in a STEM field!"), underscores the ongoing importance of the liberal arts and the humanities.

As someone with a BA from an LA program, I used to agree you Jane...but looking at the syllabus for most LA classes today doesn't resemble what I was taught in the least... Dare I say it's been hijacked by grey pony tailed activist cry bullies not preparing undergrads for real world skills that I wouldn't pay an employee "jack shit" for.   

Can you provide some examples of this supposed shift? Some actual course names or descriptions from actual universities that bother you? And can you please provide a link to the department so that we can know this is "most liberal arts classes today" and not a cherry-picked list?

In other words, let's deal in specifics and not in generalities.

I don't know whether it's the courses that changed or our economy (well I know our economy changed but maybe the courses did too), but for many decades, a "liberal arts education" was enough to get a great job. It meant you could think critically and were prepared for many many white collar jobs. Now though, employers want concrete skills. Few want to spend time training you. Hence why STEM degrees have become so valuable.

As a side note, I think liberal arts fields are suffering from a terrible image. Some of that is deserved, some not. You had the Duke "group of 88", the majority of which were liberal arts professors, you have Columbia's "mattress girl", etc. The field is hyper political and I can't blame people for thinking not much value is coming out of today's liberal arts departments. Lots of outrage though.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 03:50:08 PM
As far as an LA degree being critical thinking. What do you think STEM  is. We're critical thinkers.  We solve complex problems daily.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: justajane on January 31, 2016, 04:22:51 PM
So justajane give a certified case and point of why liberal arts and humanities should be taught at the level they are being taught now. And then reference the cost of that education to the probability of receiving a job in your degree field and being paid well enough to support yourself without society stepping in.

Bc as far as this post is concerned your only argument would be that people who got stem degrees should fund the LA degree people's choice to do what they want. 

Art actually used to be a science. How to get the pigments you want to last on a canvas and maintain that color. It was a research science and a way of documenting pictoral history.  Now we do all that with a camera that can cost 10bucks.

Davinci and van gogh etc were on the cutting edges of pictoral history. An art degree now. Isn't stem. Then it was.

Society is evolving.

Once again, your inability to write cogently is rather telling.** If society is evolving away from the need for people to be able to read fluently and write well, then I think it is evolving to its detriment. There is a reason why colleges demand that all students take courses in the liberal arts, and it's not to keep old-fashioned and irrelevant departments going. It's because the liberal arts excel at teaching students how to write and engage in nuanced thinking. These skills serve you well in any career path.

As far as the ROI of humanities degrees, you are creating this scenario that doesn't exist in reality. In other words, most people who major in the liberal arts don't end up working exactly in the field in which they studied. That's not the purpose of a liberal arts degrees. It's to give you a well-rounded education, which will behoove you in any field.

You don't have to be an English teacher if you majored in English. Go to any corporation today and you will find loads of people who majored in the humanities. My neighbor majored in Art. She works for a major university in fundraising. My husband majored in film studies. He works for a major financial institution in corporate support. And on and on and on. 

Just because there are a bunch of entitled liberal arts graduates who lack the motivation to get a good job post-college doesn't mean the degree they got is useless. That's on them that they haven't been creative enough to use it.  You're not reading a story about all the liberal arts graduates who did in fact pay their loans off and got a good job out of school.

**Note this is not to imply that many, if not the vast majority, of people in the STEM fields don't write well. This forum is proof that this is not true. I just think boarder42's posts are funny in that respect.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 04:26:54 PM
I'm typing in an online forum from a phone. I'll laugh my way to the bank while you liberals try to take money from people who know how to make it. And making sentences in proper engrish in an online forum doesn't gain you much.

That's great you know people who got degrees in fields that pay nothing only to find a position that doesn't use it. More power to them. And congratulations to them.

I keep talking in dumb setneses so u keep on laugh
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: ender on January 31, 2016, 04:29:31 PM
I'm typing in an online forum from a phone. I'll laugh my way to the bank while you liberals try to take money from people who know how to make it. And making sentences in proper engrish in an online forum doesn't gain you much.

That's great you know people who got degrees in fields that pay nothing only to find a position that doesn't use it. More power to them. And congratulations to them.

I keep talking in dumb setneses so u keep on laugh


.... wat.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 31, 2016, 04:36:12 PM
I don't know whether it's the courses that changed or our economy (well I know our economy changed but maybe the courses did too), but for many decades, a "liberal arts education" was enough to get a great job. It meant you could think critically and were prepared for many many white collar jobs. Now though, employers want concrete skills. Few want to spend time training you. Hence why STEM degrees have become so valuable.
For many decades, these jobs existed because human labor cost less than automation. That's not the case any more. We don't begrudge travel agents for having earned their income from the 1960s to the early 2000s, but we're not going to hire them back either.

Schumpeter's gale and all that.

Note that even the enlightened STEM workers aren't immune to the sense of entitlement of what type of job and wages they should be able to get. Just read the comments on any tech site that discusses H-1B visas and Indian IT shops, this coming from an industry that has been displacing workers for the last 20 years. Oh the irony, it hurts.

(disclaimer: like many here I program jobs-destroying computers for a living)

boarder42: go home, you're drunk.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: justajane on January 31, 2016, 04:41:32 PM
I'm typing in an online forum from a phone. I'll laugh my way to the bank while you liberals try to take money from people who know how to make it. And making sentences in proper engrish in an online forum doesn't gain you much.

That's great you know people who got degrees in fields that pay nothing only to find a position that doesn't use it. More power to them. And congratulations to them.

I keep talking in dumb setneses so u keep on laugh

Once again, they do use their degrees. At this point, I feel like we are just talking past each other. You clearly don't understand the purpose of a liberal arts degree. That is abundantly clear to me.

You view the world in very binary and bizarre ways. Liberals versus money-makers, STEM versus liberal arts people, ...I honestly can't keep track of it all anymore.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on January 31, 2016, 04:44:29 PM
To get back to the op.

What reform do you propose to resolve the student loan(spending) crisis in America.

We'll all end up paying for it in some way bc society is about supporting the grass hopper at the expense of the ant.

My whole point on this op was that this post doesn't make sense in a forum of financial responsibility.

To worry about what you can't control gets you nowhere. So if that was the point congrats.

I almost deleted my entire first post on here when I wrote it.

But I'm glad I didn't bc we have one post(mozar) who doesn't want to pay for reform personally but would like the govt to.

I mean cmon. The govt money comes from us. The tax payers.

So I ask those of you out there what reasonable reform do you propose that could actually pass thru our legislative system.

Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on January 31, 2016, 07:23:10 PM
No. The universities are too big and powerful now to let their free money and total lack of need for cost control go away. And even in this thread people are complaining about the lenders, but it's the universities that are the salesmen here.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: MrsPete on January 31, 2016, 09:12:35 PM
This already is changing -- to some extent. 

When I started teaching, the general feeling from both school staff and parents seemed to be something like this:  Our seniors deserve to attend THE SCHOOL they want to attend.  They deserve the college experience.  Anything less is cheating the student out of his or her opportunity to be what he wants to be.  Anyway, student loans are GOOD DEBT because they build credit scores and will lead to good jobs in the future. 

Today many people still buy into this, but most people have become more realistic about the financial aspect of college -- even the students.  More students are considering community college as a viable option, and fewer students are considering the more expensive private and out of state schools. 

I definitely still see a general acceptance of borrowing -- or maybe it's more fair to say some students see borrowing as an unfortunate necessity -- but I hear more and more students who are concerned about borrowing too much

Thing is, what I see among my high school seniors won't show up in society for 4+ years.  Students have to have time to finish school, get out into the world and either make it or not make it. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: teen persuasion on February 01, 2016, 08:19:51 AM
If we are creating reforms for generation Y, can we please define who is in generation Y?  Late 30's sounded much  closer to my generation X age, rather than my 20ish generation Y kids.

Looking online for definitions, I found way too much imprecision.   Most of the consensus put the start of generation Y around 1984 (as a nice, even 20 years after the end of the baby boomers/beginning of generation X), sometimes 1980-81.  The endpoint of generation Y varied from 1992 - 2004, with most consensus around 2000.  So depending on definitions, I have anywhere from 1 to 4 of my 5 kids in generation Y.  Poor, 10yo DS5 - is he generation Z?
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Lanthiriel on February 01, 2016, 09:04:29 AM
While I think it's pretty clear that the cost of education needs to go down, probably at the expense of things that make college "fun," I wonder if some of the ire here is about the two examples. Both are people who went back for MBAs later in life, one of them online.

For the first person from a top tier school, why didn't they get a scholarship or assistantship? Are they not leveraging the degree enough? Were they honest with themselves about their abilities outside of the classroom?

For the second person, this is just stupid. Half an hour of Googling will tell you that 90% of online degree programs are worthless (there are exceptions for decent programs through respected brick and mortar universities). If this person is intelligent enough to pursue an MBA, surely they can do a modicum of research on job placement rates and the like.

It just seems hard to swallow that people who are intelligent enough to finish a degree program lack the level of critical thinking to realize what they're getting in to. When my husband graduated with almost $60k in debt after almost 8 years of pursuing a BS in Civil Engineering, he suggested a grad program to after having trouble finding a job. I laughed at him. Instead he took a materials testing job and proved himself to his company by working 90 hour weeks in the field until they moved him to an engineering position. People just seem to think that the degree somehow stops them from having to earn their way and they are owed the position of their dreams just because of their education.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on February 01, 2016, 10:18:31 AM
I hear you that you find it hard to understand that people who can finish a program have a hard time thinking about the big picture in terms of careers, but that's how it is. You think it would be obvious that you should wear a seat belt when you are in a car, but people still don't do it. That's why its a law. I understand that I am further left than a lot of people on this particular thread. I'm saying we can use our tax money to make life easier for everyone. 
My suggestion is for states to restore funding to universities.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: boarder42 on February 01, 2016, 10:34:03 AM
I hear you that you find it hard to understand that people who can finish a program have a hard time thinking about the big picture in terms of careers, but that's how it is. You think it would be obvious that you should wear a seat belt when you are in a car, but people still don't do it. That's why its a law. I understand that I am further left than a lot of people on this particular thread. I'm saying we can use our tax money to make life easier for everyone. 
My suggestion is for states to restore funding to universities.

at the expense of what.  The taxpayers or some other social program. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mozar on February 01, 2016, 10:45:48 AM
I have lots of opinions about what tax money should be spent on but I don't think its worth arguing about with people with whom I have large ideological differences. What's important is that everyone vote in local state and federal elections.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Capsu78 on February 01, 2016, 11:00:04 AM
Once again, they do use their degrees. At this point, I feel like we are just talking past each other. You clearly don't understand the purpose of a liberal arts degree. That is abundantly clear to me.

You view the world in very binary and bizarre ways. Liberals versus money-makers, STEM versus liberal arts people, ...I honestly can't keep track of it all anymore.

If I'm having my gallbladder removed, I prefer the procedure be performed by someone with a STEM background... If I'm ordering a latte at Starbucks, pretty much any Fine Arts or  (Insert) Studies major will do.  :-)

Please note: Liberal Arts graduate here so I have a "get out of jail" card from triggering micro aggressions.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Tjat on February 01, 2016, 11:19:02 AM
Getting here late to the party, but it's not clear what sort of "reform" is being advocated for by the OP. Should we identify people that made poor choices and bought something they couldn't afford and then "bail them out?"

Student loan reform will come when the education bubble bursts and people get it through their heads that 6 figure debts for a piece of paper don't make sense. Once college demand falls (and government subsidies), prices will fall and the amount needed for loans will lessen. Retroactively "fixing" the situation for people doesn't make sense as it would be paid for by:

1) People that made the same mistakes they did but worked their tail off to live frugally and/or make a bunch of money to pay it off
2) People that were responsible with their life choices and didn't take on stupid debt with no known means of paying it off


 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: MrsPete on February 01, 2016, 11:22:44 AM
While I think it's pretty clear that the cost of education needs to go down, probably at the expense of things that make college "fun,"
Thing is, lots of people rail about the increase in the cost of education ... but then want their own kid to live in a nicer dorm (i.e., she just can't be expected to use a bathroom down the hall!), and want small classes, and want various support programs provided by the school, and want a new rec center built on camps ... but, oh yes!  Do all these things AND reduce the cost. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Jack on February 01, 2016, 12:23:09 PM
Why free school. You don't need to go to college to be a tradesmen. We're runinng out of these.  The whole "college dream" and the fact that you HAVE to go to college to be successful. No you don't and your dumb ass liberal arts degree that pays Jack shit should pay Jack shit.

Hey, why'd you have to go and make it personal? ; )

Anyway, the trouble with the "what about being a tradesman" argument is that even though you're perfectly correct, the problem is that dumbass parents, teachers and high-school guidance counselors push "you must go to college to get a good job" so fucking hard that most students don't even realize it's a viable option. Back at my high school, vocational classes were for people too stupid for college-prep classes (let alone honors or gifted) -- the only people who picked those were considered losers. The idea of a high-end/well-paying vocational career was simply unknown.

My wife and I made it out of college without an unaffordable amount of student loans through sheer dumb luck -- my wife graduated more quickly than usual (because she wanted to be done, not because she was consciously trying to save money), and I ended up at a public university because I wasn't accepted at MIT. Still, looking back we were totally stupid about student loans, and my wife regrets the expense (I was lucky that "following my passion" landed me in engineering, but she got a fine arts degree).

Art actually used to be a science. How to get the pigments you want to last on a canvas and maintain that color. It was a research science and a way of documenting pictoral history.  Now we do all that with a camera that can cost 10bucks.

Davinci and van gogh etc were on the cutting edges of pictoral history. An art degree now. Isn't stem. Then it was.

DaVinci, maybe. But Van Gogh's work (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Starry_Night) had nothing to do with "pictoral history!"
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: mm1970 on February 01, 2016, 01:50:17 PM
The whole going to school bc you "think" it will get you higher pay doesn't even hold water

You can go online and research what careers are in need and what those careers pay then you can pick one that you think is of you aptitude or push yourself to one outside your aptitude. If there isn't one there that involves something you can do then look to the trades. If you can't do that. Then survival of the fitest.
I think this is why we need to focus more on this sort of thing in high school.  Because it seems like we haven't caught up with reality.

When I look back decades within my own family (which was poor).  You know my parents' generation, nobody went to college.  So there was no need to worry about borrowing money.  You got a job out of high school.  In many cases, the military.  My mother's family, well, the youngest uncle went to trade school, because there was money for it by then.

Within my own family, it was similar.  Out of 9 children, I am the only one who went to college out of high school (and I borrowed money to do it).  I'm #8.  My eldest sibling was an X-ray tech.  Number 2 got married and had kids, then went to college and got an MBA as an adult - as in, over 30 years old.  One sister got a job and then took night classes to get her degree, for about 10 years.  So the loan thing really wasn't much of an issue for them, because it wasn't "common".

In a town like mine, which is rural "what kinds of jobs are needed" are pretty simple, as it's a service-based town.  Grocery clerks, teachers, plumbers, auto mechanics, prison guards, office assistants, nurses.

If you have any intention of "leaving" town, then the research gets a little bit trickier - partly because you are completely reliant on the internet for your research - there aren't adults who have personal experience to help you.  (I cannot speak for the OP, but I'm 45, and the internet did not exist when I went to college and borrowed money.)  The scary thing to think about is that more than 65% of jobs that will exist for my kids?  Don't exist yet.

So anyway, you have a 17 year old kid who has to figure out "what to do with their life".  There's research, but the hard part is that it's a little young to be deciding what you want to do, well, forever.  If you are bombarded by people telling you "go to college", it can start to drown out any modicum of common sense, or thought of doing research.  I mean, if you are 17, how do you know?  We are relying on 17 year olds to make a good decision.  When my dad was 17, he was about to go into WWII.  My parents were still living at home at 17, 18, 20 for the most part, as were many of my older siblings.  The ability to borrow a crap-ton of money simply didn't exist.  So the risk of making a bad decision?  Super low (well, except for my dad might not have survived the war).

I find it fascinating that people who are adults, and have clearly "made it" and have "made the right decisions" find it *very* easy to shit all over people who either made bad decisions, had bad luck, or trusted the wrong people/ places for advice. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: LeRainDrop on February 03, 2016, 08:17:09 PM
On a lighter note, thanks to me reading this thread just before bed the other night, I had a dream that largely grew out of the concepts here.  I was back at my high school, though still my current age -- let's call it early 30s -- and I walking through the pathways and halls and such.  There were all these weird things happening around me.  In any event, at least a significant portion of the action was people standing on the grass next to the footpaths and trying to convince the students who were walking by that they should take out huge loans.  The marketers were not allowed to step on the actual footpaths; they had to respect the paths as barriers, similar to how we have election laws preventing the candidates and their supporters from campaigning too close to the polling locations.   At one point a lady started following me trying to talk me into getting a loan for college, and I was just like, first of all, I am way past the point of student loans, and second of all, I'm too old not to know any better than to fall for your schemes!  Leave me alone!

ETA:  To clarify my concept of student loans and why I have a distaste for colleges pushing them, I don't just think of direct tuition/books, but also how they try to convince you that you need all these excessive "living expenses," like pricey food, housing, student activities, etc.  The private loans in particular are like poisoned candy.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: JZinCO on February 03, 2016, 08:44:25 PM
I don't understand why the hang up on student loans. The primary issue is the cost of higher ed (10$ meals in the cafeteria, fancy apartment-like dorms, constant tearing down and rebuilding of buildings). Back to student loans..

Where I am coming from is that I decided to go into a not-so lucrative field. I know it wouldn't pay well (though at the time I was very content with idea of not making much), so I decided to shop around and go to a well respected university, for my field, with an annual tuition of 7,000. I also worked my ass off and got scholarships. Then, I worked every summer in my field. I was able to pay off my undergraduate with my Americorps education award, scholarships and summer jobs (making between $15-18/hr doing manual labor).

I use myself as an anecdote because I was not so naive. Unfortunately, some young adults are and do not understand the ramifications of taking out loans. There exists a simple underemphasis on financial literacy. Is naivete an excuse to have others pick up the slack for you?

Whatever the answer is, I know individuals that take out huge loans on programs with little ROI, or engage in financial idiocy under any other method, will burden society. What I do know is that I'm alright with individuals paying back their public loan debts through public service. Plenty of programs already exist but are being underutilized. I see no reason for new debt forgiveness programs. Talk about a perverse moral hazard.
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on February 07, 2016, 11:47:46 AM
To get back to the op.

What reform do you propose to resolve the student loan(spending) crisis in America.


When I posted this thread I didn't have any particular suggestions in mind which is why I posted this topic.  I just know I had been having these conversations with people in our 20s and now we're in our 30s and I'm having some of the same conversations with the same people and have been wondering what could be done differently.

On a micro level my primary contribution to this situation is sharing my own story with others and suggesting that those I know obviously do not go down the wrong path when it comes to borrowing too much.  If I were to have children due to my own experiences I would honestly try to steer them away from student loans altogether.  (As of now I do not plan on having children though.)

I would agree that educating students in high school would help alleviate this problem; personal finance courses could help them make better informed decisions about not just student loan debt, but how to handle money period. 

As far as those already indebted; I don't have the answer. 
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on February 07, 2016, 11:52:20 AM
This already is changing -- to some extent. 

When I started teaching, the general feeling from both school staff and parents seemed to be something like this:  Our seniors deserve to attend THE SCHOOL they want to attend.  They deserve the college experience.  Anything less is cheating the student out of his or her opportunity to be what he wants to be.  Anyway, student loans are GOOD DEBT because they build credit scores and will lead to good jobs in the future. 

Today many people still buy into this, but most people have become more realistic about the financial aspect of college -- even the students.  More students are considering community college as a viable option, and fewer students are considering the more expensive private and out of state schools. 

I definitely still see a general acceptance of borrowing -- or maybe it's more fair to say some students see borrowing as an unfortunate necessity -- but I hear more and more students who are concerned about borrowing too much

Thing is, what I see among my high school seniors won't show up in society for 4+ years.  Students have to have time to finish school, get out into the world and either make it or not make it.

I'm glad to hear this. 

Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: EconDiva on February 07, 2016, 12:07:36 PM
While I think it's pretty clear that the cost of education needs to go down, probably at the expense of things that make college "fun," I wonder if some of the ire here is about the two examples. Both are people who went back for MBAs later in life, one of them online.

For the first person from a top tier school, why didn't they get a scholarship or assistantship? Are they not leveraging the degree enough? Were they honest with themselves about their abilities outside of the classroom?

For the second person, this is just stupid. Half an hour of Googling will tell you that 90% of online degree programs are worthless (there are exceptions for decent programs through respected brick and mortar universities). If this person is intelligent enough to pursue an MBA, surely they can do a modicum of research on job placement rates and the like.

It just seems hard to swallow that people who are intelligent enough to finish a degree program lack the level of critical thinking to realize what they're getting in to. When my husband graduated with almost $60k in debt after almost 8 years of pursuing a BS in Civil Engineering, he suggested a grad program to after having trouble finding a job. I laughed at him. Instead he took a materials testing job and proved himself to his company by working 90 hour weeks in the field until they moved him to an engineering position. People just seem to think that the degree somehow stops them from having to earn their way and they are owed the position of their dreams just because of their education.

For the first person from a top tier school, why didn't they get a scholarship or assistantship? Are they not leveraging the degree enough? Were they honest with themselves about their abilities outside of the classroom?
-They had scholarships but they didn't cover the entire cost of the program.  By the time they graduated they figured they should get a Masters, as their undergrad major was NOT a lucrative one.  So think 50-60k undergrad debt...job making maybe in the 40s or so.  Also I will go ahead and add in the assumption that because this person came from poor means (knows what it's like to see your parent live in a car), and then goes to an Ivy school amongst others graduating with 6-figure income jobs, then comes out with debt, all of this I assume had to play a role in the decision they made to go back to school for a Masters, as they just knew they'd come out making more money.  And don't get me wrong, they did, but again still not enough to warrant the additional debt from the Masters.  Now on the other hand, the husband took a similar route, but upon graduating with his Masters makes a TON more than she does so it all worked out for him in the finance industry.

For the second person, this is just stupid. Half an hour of Googling will tell you that 90% of online degree programs are worthless (there are exceptions for decent programs through respected brick and mortar universities). If this person is intelligent enough to pursue an MBA, surely they can do a modicum of research on job placement rates and the like.
-I guess.  I won't say it was the best decision for this person obviously.  Maybe not the best example to include?  For me personally I vowed "no more" after the undergrad loans.  And this was after hearing from some of my own friends that another degree would be the best route.  For me I decided I also "needed" a higher income in order to pay off my debt, but that it would have to come by means other than another degree as I was unwilling to take on more debt.  For me, it meant leaving all of my family and friends and taking a job in another region of the country to support myself.  And it meant a little job hopping to get the pay increases.  (So now that issue is pretty much resolved but I have a new issue of decline in quality of life due to the move away...but that's a "whole nother" topic.)
Title: Re: Will student loan reform come for Gen Y?
Post by: Dee18 on February 07, 2016, 02:16:53 PM
I teach at a university.  I went through undergrad myself on scholarships, part time jobs, and a bit from my parents.  I went to grad school borrowing money for tuition, but living a totally frugal lifestyle with many roommates, part time jobs, and a $10/week budget for eating out. 

What drives me nuts with my students is that they are borrowing enough to live in private luxury apartments, coming to class with giant Starbucks drinks every morning, and bragging about the concerts/bars/great restaurants they go to Thursday through Saturday.  So while I am for funding universities with tax dollars, I do not support "forgiving" the majority of student loans.  When a group if students was talking to me about the bar scene one afternoon this week, I said, "I just don't understand borrowing money at 6% interest rate to go bar hopping."  They looked stunned.  One of them said, "I never thought of it that way."