Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea

[ShortInSeattle]

A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.

Well, given that you are married with a kid I think that the following steps would be appropriate.

1. Give it some time while you're still in the baby stage. Focus on modeling good behavior on the areas that you can control. Have fun together in ways that don't involve a plane ticket to Europe. Rein in yourself, not her.

2. As you gradually shift your own habits, love your family and be good to them.

3. If your goals and your wife's goals continue to be radically different and you can't find compromise, consider counseling.

4. If you and your wife can't see eye to eye, you may end up in a position of choosing FIRE or choosing to stay married. This is a worst case scenario of course, but in the back of your mind start to contemplate which you would choose. Some things are deal breakers, and only the two of you can say if this is for you.

My heart goes out to you man. I don't think the D-word should ever be contemplated lightly. I hope the two of you can work it out. 

(hugs)

[sheepstache]

In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.

I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.

So in situations like this, what are her objections?

We already hired a nanny and my wife is worried about
A) me losing my job if I took time off without fmla protection
B) losing more of my income (I make the majority of the money)

She really sees you as a provider it sounds like. 

I would stress the idea of 'opportunity cost.'  If I understand right it sounds like you're spending a quarter of your monthly income on the nanny.  Your wife may not have thought of it that way.  Most people don't.  Run the numbers for her including the tax implications.

You haven't said what your investments are like right now.  Do you have an investment plan?  How much are your investments throwing off in dividends?  Talking about investments as an income stream makes this whole thing sound a lot more reasonable than just 'living off savings' which has negative connotations for most people.  Also, you haven't said anything to suggest this but I can't help but feel that your wife is the type of person who's invested in what their spouse achieves.  While men can often maintain their self-respect while having a stay at home partner, women tend to worry they'll be judged for being married to a 'loser' or 'slacker.'  And your professional success and work ethic may be something she really admires about you.  She may be worried that you're changing as a person.  Talking about the transition in terms of you becoming an in-house investment manager might be one way to go (even if secretly you're just doing index funds).

At the end of the day, if she just sees you as a paycheck with legs, you're screwed.  You know what to do in that case.  In the meantime I'll assume that you're here because you think advice might actually help.

Look on the bright side: you say your wife freaks out at the idea of touching savings.  That's not contrary to mustachian mindset.  As far as first steps for budgeting go, it sounds like she'll like the idea of increasing your savings.

I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
-my cell phone is paid for by my work
-I pack my lunch about 50% of the time
-we don't pay for water
-I don't have any toys to sell

The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working. But that requires a larger change which gets back to the original problem. And what makes this so disheartening and frustrating

With respect, because I know you were responding to specific questions, but this sounds kind of complainypants.  You built your life just as much as your wife did.  You willingly bought a place that costs 2k a month.  All these fixed costs are ones that you participated in taking on.  Take responsibility.

And 1k a month for food?  Even if you're saying 400 of that is eating out for entertainment, how the hell are you spending 600 on groceries for 2.5 people?  You're exhausted at 7:30 in the evening?  Do you go to bed then?  Then you're not exhausted.  Do something productive with your time.  And anyway you can batch cook on the weekends.  Why are you eating out for lunch half the time?  Why do you have a car?  Why are you paying for storage?  Sell that shit you have in storage.  What are these club fees you're paying?  1k for travel and you already have a car?  Is that still true even now that you have the kid?  Can't you take more frugal trips?  What 100 are you spending on kid's stuff?  Search some of the threads here for getting diapers cheaply.  Other stuff you should be getting as hand-me-downs or gifts.

I agree with you that it sounds like the bigger stuff would be an easy way to save money, but don't get tunnel vision about it.  I'll say it again, your wife does sound very my-way-or-the-highway which doesn't bode well for the relationship, but from what you've written so do you a bit.

And think in terms of trade-offs and perks.  'If we move to Queens and get our housing costs down to 1k, we could put an extra 500 in RJG, Jr.'s college fund and still come out ahead.'  'If the market goes down, think of how nice it will be to have cashed out some of our equity now!'  'If we  don't fritter away 1k in traveling each month, we could add an extra week to our annual vacation and still save a ton!'  'All of our friends with kids are moving to Brooklyn and Queens, that's just what people do at our stage of life.' 

[mm1970]

It's definitely helpful hearing the female perspective. I agree that my timing sucked. While it's been stewing in the back of my head for a while, we had some stressful stuff happen with our place recently and combined with my imminent return to work raised it to the level of "blurting it out". Guess I did upset the "mama bear". Also agree with those who suggested waiting till our child is atkeast 1 before making any big changes probably makes sense.

In general my wife suffers from anxiety and did have a kind of crazy childhood. Money is a particular hot button with her- the word "budget" is not something she's fond of. That being said I woukdnt say she's necessarily into "status spending"'- and maybe when compared to other NYC moms she knows - she's "low key" in her expectations. Shes very conservative with things like investing (doesn't trust the stock market) and likes to be over insured.

The idea a few of you raised of interim steps makes sense to me. One possibility I've thought of is to suggest buying a vacation house. We recently visited some friends of hers who live all/part of the year in Lake Tahoe. We both enjoyed it.

I was surprised to learn that you can buy a 3br house there in the 500s. It's near water (obviously), within a few hours of San Francisco and she's got friends who live in Tahoe and SF. So maybe rent it out most of the  year to bring income in with the possibility of eventually moving there. People from all over the world visit that area, so it could provide a way to "house swap" wjth a European if she wanted us to take a European vacation. But the idea of owning real estate so far away  is a bit scary. And I'm getting way ahead of myself.

The harder piece of the puzzle is work. Im so disengaged/uninterested/burned out in my job that it is hard to think outside the box there.

For now, I don't think my wife will be comfortable with me in anything less than a full time job making atkeast 100k. Which means sticking wjth what I'm doing but maybe at a different company. I've been on a few interviews but nothing has gone anywhere. I suspect that my lack of passion for this career path is somewhat obvious. I secretly hope that I get laid off, but given my wife's feeling that will likely lead to even bigger trouble.

I've floated the idea of being a SAHD and that was also a non starter for her. For now we are going the nanny route (at 2k/month no less)!

As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.

Someone asked what "her number" would be. I don't think she could answer that. But I suspect it would be something that would allow you to keep our exact lifestyle wjth an extremely safe withdraw rate (like 2%). Maybe 10 million. Which is never going to happen realistically.

Any other ideas for interim steps? It is hard to get my head around the idea of being financially but not emotionally ready for FI.

Let's see: vacation home. I guess I'd suggest against it - instead of actually buying a home in Tahoe, just rent one off VRBO a few times first.  If you find one you like, you can rent the same one every year for a few years.  It can get you a taste of a different life, and it's a good way to test it out.

Private schools: eh, I'm not in the education business. I'm an engineer, so is my husband.  We like "traditional" school, and I'm a fan of common core (when I was a kid, I learned to memorize things.  I'm good at that.  I've had to work hard to overcome that.  Common core is teaching my kid how to do fast math in his head, in a way I just started learning - from him, my 8 year old).  I've heard great things about alternative types of schooling, like Montessori, and I think it really just depends on the kid.

Job disengagement - I've been there.  My company has become a crappy place to work with really bad culture.  I've had 7 bosses in 6 years and have moved around a lot, and have started looking for a new job.  My enthusiasm comes and goes, but really - what I try to do, when I'm well rested, is find new projects at work that I find interesting.  It could be a new development project, or simply just learning.  Like right now I'm putting some time into scripts and Excel programming for automated data analysis and charts.  I don't particularly like doing this but it's a huge time saver.  All I can say is that - FOR NOW - it seems like your wife is unwilling to let you quit, so try to make the best of the situation.  For all those who say "dump her", well, you've got a baby - that's not going to happen. Good luck.

And seriously, research the Europe thing.  I think it sounds like an awesomely cool thing to do. 

[mm1970]

I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife

I struggle with this too.  But improving it's doable.  Do you and your wife share cooking, or is it something that falls in your court?  If the former, what works for us is that we each have days we are responsible for, though DH is still annoyingly prone to want to eat out and it's hard for me on the days I'm responsible as I WOH (he's RE) and get home and want supper ready.  But I've found that with some planning ahead (and a crockpot) it's manageable.  The next evening I'm responsible for is Friday and I've decided already it's going to be BLTs -- I'm going to run to Trader Joe's, get some precooked bacon, the L and the T and a decent sourdough bread and patch these together in advance -- takes hardly any time at all -- plus (probably) a tomato salad or maybe a gazpacho -- either can be whipped together in under 10 minutes and left in the fridge.  I also often do a big pot of rice and/or roast veggies and keep those in the fridge for use over the week.  Pasta's simple too, and both ground beef (etc.) and shrimp can be cooked and frozen, then added to other recipes as needed. 

Why not bump those packed lunches up to 80%?  That's still one lunch out per week.

And as for

The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working.

... well, fine.  But I wouldn't move either, so, you know -- there are plenty of people who feel this way.  I'm not saying it's ideal or that it should be set in stone for all eternity, but it's a big change and one you introduced (IMO) at a lousy time, so -- focus on what you can do, not what you can't (for now).

Why do you get home so late?  Can you get home earlier?  You make most of the money, I'm sure there are job "expectations", but you know - I leave at 4:30 pm every day.  Nope, I'm not getting raises or promotions, but I get home by 5:30.

Can you prep at night or in the morning? Use the crock pot?  Cook on the weekends?  I know it sucks to work those hours AND pick up all this extra work, but...if you want to save money, you have to do it.

I pack my lunch every day, and my husband does 4x a week or more.  I initially had resistance to packing lunches - he ate out every Friday.  But now that I have delicious options for lunch on Fridays, he only eats out every other Friday.

Still, cut yourself some slack here with the 3 month old baby.  I'd wager you both are exhausted.  I know we are.  We are 44 and 46 with 8 and 2 year olds.  It's exhausting.

[BlueHouse]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

I don't know enough about the OP or his wife to know, but some people use words more freely than you seem to.  It's just a word and some people may be more carefree with their choice of words than you are. 

Here's how I see the situation: 
1.  Husband threatened wife by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
2.  Wife threatened back by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle. 

Personally, I read the original post as if there were some hyperbole in it.  Lots of people threaten divorce in a joking manner.  Lots of people also say they'll kill someone, but I don't take them at their word.   I have no idea whether it was exaggeration, truthful or somewhere in between.  Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see anything to convince me that this couldn't have been just an emotional outcry that they'll laugh about later.

[bogart]

I don't know enough about the OP or his wife to know, but some people use words more freely than you seem to.  It's just a word and some people may be more carefree with their choice of words than you are. 

Here's how I see the situation: 
1.  Husband threatened wife by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
2.  Wife threatened back by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle. 

Personally, I read the original post as if there were some hyperbole in it.  Lots of people threaten divorce in a joking manner.  Lots of people also say they'll kill someone, but I don't take them at their word.   I have no idea whether it was exaggeration, truthful or somewhere in between.  Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see anything to convince me that this couldn't have been just an emotional outcry that they'll laugh about later.

+1

[Gin1984]

As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.

Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes?  Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship?  Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.

On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis.  Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together.  It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish.  "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values.  Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together.  I've seen the light and I want to change."  OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife?  I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her. 

I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos.  OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling.  But I do know what I want - and that is security.  If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me.  You are taking away her perceived security.  What are you offering in its place?

Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later.  Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!

He brought it up when she was three months post-birth.  Even MFTs say not to change the family situation/ worry about minor issues for the first six months post baby because of the huge change and sleep deprivation.  No one is stable in that time period.

[Rika Non]

rjg:

Just to clarify I am saying this as a woman, but I am not a mother.

My take on all this is that the small steps you need to take are to first and foremost is to start separating your finances.  I know a lot of people on this site are for the one pot o' money.  But if you have different goals and you both are working you really need to start setting up a hers / yours/ and kid & house account.  You need to do this slowly and make sure you always phrase this as for the future and for the family.  When you have separate accounts you will have the freedom to invest & grow your money.  Having the safety blanket of an investment portfolio that you know you could live off of makes it much easier to put up with the dread at work.

Trust me I do understand the dread of a burn out job.  I've been there with the working 100+ hours.  In some field you have to do that since you are rated against your peers and they are also doing the same.  That is just what it takes sometimes.  But the problem is if you are a clear thinker, you see that all this work and burn-out will just get you more work & burn-out.  Planning for an early retirement is one thing that can make the soul-crushing corporate grind more manageable.

I really cannot fathom being in your shoes since I have never married and I don't like children.  But I have been with my fiancé for over 7 years so its sort of liked married but without the paperwork.  We do the totally separate finances.  We have rather different thought on retirement.  But if I stick with my plan, I'll retire early, and he'll keep working.  We're both okay with that.  Two people can be together and be happy and have very different plans & goals. 

[blackomen]

Your word of the day: Compromise.

I'm not sure what your values are but I love travel.  For me, while FI is important, I would not pinch pennies to the extreme and live miserably just to reach FI a year or two earlier than originally planned.  I also enjoy living on the West Coast and chose a small condo to keep housing more affordable rather than living in a large mansion in the middle of nowhere.

If you value travel, then tell her how much you enjoy traveling (even if she's heard it many times) and how you'd like to go to X, Y, and Z countries/cities in Europe..  but you don't wish to live paycheck and paycheck and want to continue building the family's financial security.  See which areas she's willing to compromise in, be it private schools, a big house, location, eating out, etc.

At the same time, see if she's open to the idea of you finding a lower paying but much more enjoyable job or at least one with shorter hours.

Fyi, I think you might also want to read Ramit Sethi's "I Will Teach You to be Rich" book, despite MMM's criticism's of it.  IMO, I think it's a more workable approach to your family's finances and your wife's personality.

[Gin1984]

As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.

Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes?  Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship?  Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.

On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis.  Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together.  It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish.  "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values.  Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together.  I've seen the light and I want to change."  OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife?  I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her. 

I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos.  OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling.  But I do know what I want - and that is security.  If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me.  You are taking away her perceived security.  What are you offering in its place?

Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later.  Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

And have you dealt with sleep deprivation, PPD even have a child or are a MD/PhD in the field?  Then, you may not understand the reactions that would come from threaten ones livelyhood, after a child was born (also threatening the child's lifestyle) especially when at stressed state?  If my husband had decided to flip out after my daughter was born and do something risky with our finances, like quit his job, I would have flipped out too. 

[cpa cat]

My take on all this is that the small steps you need to take are to first and foremost is to start separating your finances.  I know a lot of people on this site are for the one pot o' money.  But if you have different goals and you both are working you really need to start setting up a hers / yours/ and kid & house account.  You need to do this slowly and make sure you always phrase this as for the future and for the family.  When you have separate accounts you will have the freedom to invest & grow your money.  Having the safety blanket of an investment portfolio that you know you could live off of makes it much easier to put up with the dread at work.

I would put money on her brain actually exploding if he so much as whispers anything about separate finances.

[Rika Non]

My take on all this is that the small steps you need to take are to first and foremost is to start separating your finances.  I know a lot of people on this site are for the one pot o' money.  But if you have different goals and you both are working you really need to start setting up a hers / yours/ and kid & house account.  You need to do this slowly and make sure you always phrase this as for the future and for the family.  When you have separate accounts you will have the freedom to invest & grow your money.  Having the safety blanket of an investment portfolio that you know you could live off of makes it much easier to put up with the dread at work.

I would put money on her brain actually exploding if he so much as whispers anything about separate finances.

You are probably correct.

[LibraryGirl]

As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.

Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes?  Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship?  Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.

On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis.  Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together.  It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish.  "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values.  Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together.  I've seen the light and I want to change."  OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife?  I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her. 

I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos.  OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling.  But I do know what I want - and that is security.  If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me.  You are taking away her perceived security.  What are you offering in its place?

Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later.  Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

And have you dealt with sleep deprivation, PPD even have a child or are a MD/PhD in the field?  Then, you may not understand the reactions that would come from threaten ones livelyhood, after a child was born (also threatening the child's lifestyle) especially when at stressed state?  If my husband had decided to flip out after my daughter was born and do something risky with our finances, like quit his job, I would have flipped out too.

He didn't DO anything.  He told her what he wanted.

If my partner was miserable and wanted to make a change, I would WANT him to talk to me.  That's what I am here for.  We are supposed to support and love each other.  If he came to me with a proposal about our lives and I wasn't into it, I'd work with him to find another way for him to be happy, not threaten to leave him.  I certainly do not understand people who want their partner to be miserable for the rest of their lives.  Why would you want to be with someone who freaks out on you when you try to talk to them about your future?

[Daleth]

There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.

There's also a huge difference between being yourself and being yourself 3 months after giving birth, with at least 3 months of sleep deprivation under your belt (and probably more, since late pregnancy is uncomfortable enough to interfere with most people's sleep). And if Wife is back at work and missing baby while Husband is not working and home with baby, that could be an added stressor for her.

Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.

Generally true, but see above. The timing sucks. I'm even inclined to blame the OP's timing on sleep deprivation (and given that this couple is just 3 months post-partum and sleep deprived, who knows how coherently the idea was expressed?).

I would wait until the kid is at least a year old, or whenever the OP feels that the parents have gotten their groove back, to raise this again.

[cpa cat]

Look, it's unfortunate that she freaked out and lobbed a "divorce" grenades into what should have been a normal debate/conversation. But that makes her a bad arguer, not a bad spouse. We don't know for sure if she will come around, it was just one argument. She has hang ups about money. It's probably a minefield. But almost everything can be navigated in a solid marriage. They'll work it out or they won't, only time will tell, but it's not such an emergency that he needs to immediately call the divorce attorney.

People get into dumb arguments. Heck, I got into an argument last night with my husband because I wanted to adopt a poor displaced dog and he was being a heartless bastard. Sure, no one threatened divorce, but there was no reason we couldn't have a conversation about a dog without it spiraling into some kind of feud. It just wasn't a great night for it. It happens. You don't get divorced over it.

[sheepstache]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

The OP did not say his wife threatened divorce.  The word he used was "suggested."  She simply brought up an idea.  A talking point, if you will.  In response to which, your first suggestion was that the OP could divorce her :)

[SisterX]

I don't know enough about the OP or his wife to know, but some people use words more freely than you seem to.  It's just a word and some people may be more carefree with their choice of words than you are. 

Here's how I see the situation: 
1.  Husband threatened wife by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
2.  Wife threatened back by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle. 

Personally, I read the original post as if there were some hyperbole in it.  Lots of people threaten divorce in a joking manner.  Lots of people also say they'll kill someone, but I don't take them at their word.   I have no idea whether it was exaggeration, truthful or somewhere in between.  Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see anything to convince me that this couldn't have been just an emotional outcry that they'll laugh about later.

+1

+2.  I once threw out the "D" word in an argument.  I believe it was something along the lines of, "Well, then, why don't you just divorce me if you think I'm such a fucking miserable person to be around?!?!"  He later told me that really hurt.  I've never done it since.
To those of you who keep saying things along the lines of "divorce her" or pointing out that she's "crazy" (and yes, I've noticed that roughly 90% of you are men--think about that for a second) that's probably the least helpful thing you could possibly say in this situation.  You don't know the wife's side of this.  Even aside from that, it doesn't sound like it's a route the OP is willing to go, so your "advice" is going to be disregarded in any case.  Try being a bit more constructive and a smidgen less critical about someone you don't know, whom the OP cares about very much.  He did marry her, after all.  Would you really like it if some random person on the internet told you to divorce your spouse for any reason at all?  I know I wouldn't, because you know nothing of my relationship except what I've chosen to post and that's purely superficial stuff.

To the OP, you'll be able to work this out.  You'll know if counseling seems right for the two of you.  Honestly, there were times when my baby was about that age when we were exhausted and I thought counseling might be needed because we weren't seeing eye to eye on anything.  We worked things out on our own, as the fog of new parenthood cleared.  It takes time, and it takes sleep.  Even doing something as nice and simple as letting her sleep in on a weekend can help a lot.  It hasn't been said recently, but congrats on the baby.  I can understand your desire to stay home because watching them grow and learn is the best thing ever, and I hate that I'm missing out on some of that by working.

[sheepstache]

Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic.  IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered.  Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.

Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE?  Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.

And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway.  I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift.  He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed.  I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.

[rjg]

In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.

I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.

So in situations like this, what are her objections?

We already hired a nanny and my wife is worried about
A) me losing my job if I took time off without fmla protection
B) losing more of my income (I make the majority of the money)

She really sees you as a provider it sounds like. 

I would stress the idea of 'opportunity cost.'  If I understand right it sounds like you're spending a quarter of your monthly income on the nanny.  Your wife may not have thought of it that way.  Most people don't.  Run the numbers for her including the tax implications.

You haven't said what your investments are like right now.  Do you have an investment plan?  How much are your investments throwing off in dividends?  Talking about investments as an income stream makes this whole thing sound a lot more reasonable than just 'living off savings' which has negative connotations for most people.  Also, you haven't said anything to suggest this but I can't help but feel that your wife is the type of person who's invested in what their spouse achieves.  While men can often maintain their self-respect while having a stay at home partner, women tend to worry they'll be judged for being married to a 'loser' or 'slacker.'  And your professional success and work ethic may be something she really admires about you.  She may be worried that you're changing as a person.  Talking about the transition in terms of you becoming an in-house investment manager might be one way to go (even if secretly you're just doing index funds).

At the end of the day, if she just sees you as a paycheck with legs, you're screwed.  You know what to do in that case.  In the meantime I'll assume that you're here because you think advice might actually help.

Look on the bright side: you say your wife freaks out at the idea of touching savings.  That's not contrary to mustachian mindset.  As far as first steps for budgeting go, it sounds like she'll like the idea of increasing your savings.

I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
-my cell phone is paid for by my work
-I pack my lunch about 50% of the time
-we don't pay for water
-I don't have any toys to sell

The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working. But that requires a larger change which gets back to the original problem. And what makes this so disheartening and frustrating

With respect, because I know you were responding to specific questions, but this sounds kind of complainypants.  You built your life just as much as your wife did.  You willingly bought a place that costs 2k a month.  All these fixed costs are ones that you participated in taking on.  Take responsibility.

And 1k a month for food?  Even if you're saying 400 of that is eating out for entertainment, how the hell are you spending 600 on groceries for 2.5 people?  You're exhausted at 7:30 in the evening?  Do you go to bed then?  Then you're not exhausted.  Do something productive with your time.  And anyway you can batch cook on the weekends.  Why are you eating out for lunch half the time?  Why do you have a car?  Why are you paying for storage?  Sell that shit you have in storage.  What are these club fees you're paying?  1k for travel and you already have a car?  Is that still true even now that you have the kid?  Can't you take more frugal trips?  What 100 are you spending on kid's stuff?  Search some of the threads here for getting diapers cheaply.  Other stuff you should be getting as hand-me-downs or gifts.

I agree with you that it sounds like the bigger stuff would be an easy way to save money, but don't get tunnel vision about it.  I'll say it again, your wife does sound very my-way-or-the-highway which doesn't bode well for the relationship, but from what you've written so do you a bit.

And think in terms of trade-offs and perks.  'If we move to Queens and get our housing costs down to 1k, we could put an extra 500 in RJG, Jr.'s college fund and still come out ahead.'  'If the market goes down, think of how nice it will be to have cashed out some of our equity now!'  'If we  don't fritter away 1k in traveling each month, we could add an extra week to our annual vacation and still save a ton!'  'All of our friends with kids are moving to Brooklyn and Queens, that's just what people do at our stage of life.'

Fair enough. Sure there's room to cut in all areas. The food grocery bill gets driven by "grassfed","organic" and "whole paycheck (whole foods). I do think the air travel will decrease. The car is used by wife for her job, visiting family, etc. In other words,cutting those things would be seen as taking something away.

What I have mentioned that seemed effective was talking about things I was going to do to "help pay for the nanny".  I guess saving in one area so that we can pay for something  else resonates. Kinda zero sum but you gotta start somewhere.

[rjg]

Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic.  IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered.  Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.

Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE?  Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.

And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway.  I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift.  He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed.  I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.

Yep that's my sense as well. I can't see a scenario where divorce is a good option

[frugalnacho]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion. 

[okashira]

Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic.  IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered.  Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.

Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE?  Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.

And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway.  I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift.  He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed.  I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.

Yep that's my sense as well. I can't see a scenario where divorce is a good option

Good news and bad news.

Good news is, as you said, cutting back on 110,000k/yr would be incredibly easy without losing any luxury (or even private school)
Bad news is, you do need to get your wife on board at least a little.

Start by massively cutting back yourself. Set an example. Wait until she is well rested before any more "conversations"

[Gin1984]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.

[frugalnacho]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.

No I do.  I still think threatening divorce over a topic being brought up is over the top. 

[okashira]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.

Maybe it is the way I am, or the way I was brought up (with parents divorced at age 4)
But to me it's just something you don't do. To me its a giant red flag, but hey, they are already married with a kid, so I guess a few red flags will have to be allowed at this point.
The vows included "for richer or poorer." even if in her mind he is going to make her poor (they are already rich) she would be violating their vows.
Anyway this is OT now, and I apologize. I had to get that out.

[rjg]

Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic.  IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered.  Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.

Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE?  Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.

And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway.  I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift.  He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed.  I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.

Yep that's my sense as well. I can't see a scenario where divorce is a good option

Good news and bad news.

Good news is, as you said, cutting back on 110,000k/yr would be incredibly easy without losing any luxury (or even private school)
Bad news is, you do need to get your wife on board at least a little.

Start by massively cutting back yourself. Set an example. Wait until she is well rested before any more "conversations"

Kind of feels manipulative but I guess I'm going to need to play the martyr a bit. Hey look- I'm packing peanut butter and jelly to pay for the nanny! Sure - lets go out to dinner. Ill eat beforehand and just come with you.

But I'm still not sure what the point is. Even if we cut back on back on food spending there's still an enormous leap from that to moving somewhere cheaper and me not working.

It would be one thing if we both trying to save up to retire early. But savings isn't really the issue here. We either have more than enough already or millions too little.  I think the bigger issues for her are me not working and the idea of moving out of a big city.

I agree wjth the poster who asked what's in it for my wife. That's a good way to frame it. Right now, here's what I could say:
-happier husband
-no need to hire an outsude person to take care of kid
-flexibility to move around / travel since I woukdnt be tied down to a job (this one is a double edges sword).

But I think the "house husband" thing is the part that she's most resistant too. It seems very important to her that I work. She always talks about her "loser uncle" who doesn't have a steady job. On the flip side her grandfather on her moms side inherited money and never worked a day in his life. She speaks fondly of him.

I think my best shot is to find a job in a lower cost city that i could be passionate about that might pay less and see how that resonates. Of course, having a job necessitates child care spending. And I have no idea what this mythical unicorn job might be.

[DoubleDown]

These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.

I could have written this OP's story, it is so close to mine. OP's wife is pretty much my wife. In her view, I needed to continue working to satisfy her desire for a large income (mine), status (from my work), and being able to spend as much as we (she) wanted, forever. The fact that I no longer wanted to work and was already FI was immaterial to her, and that was grossly unfair in my view.

Here's what I concluded, after 1,000 discussions with my wife. And let me say that the 1,000 discussions and time made almost no difference in her opinion -- she wanted money and status (she wouldn't say she desired status, but it's couched in all her fears and insecurities, exact same as the OP's). I decided I was not going to continue working unnecessarily for another 15-20 years to satisfy her desires for unnecessary money and status, and I told her that point blank. I told her that outcome is completely off the table, one way or another I'm quitting WAY before then. I told her she could either be part of the solution in how to make that happen, us together, but if she continues to take a "my way or the highway" approach then forget it. Because I would not want to be married to someone who's willing to subjugate me to another 15-20 years in a career I no longer wanted, when we no longer needed any more money (I didn't tell her that part, but it made my own decision-making more clear).

That finally got her attention, on that 1001st discussion. We found a solution for us both, after many painful and long conversations. If I had not been so direct I'd still be working, and she'd be perfectly content to continue the status quo forever. And really, OP's wife is stonewalling far worse than my wife ever did. This is not an ultimatum or threat, it's just laying things out clearly. I think the OP needs to let her know they need to find a way to make it happen for them both, period.

Then the discussions are no longer about "whether" to make it happen, but "how." But make it clear that now that you are FI (and you are completely FI, my friend), then continuing to work with no end in sight, and with no goal, is off the table. Sure, this conversation could wait another month or two.

OP, if you want to see the many similarities and some voyeuristic insight, this thread took a turn towards discussing the exact same issues:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-'lessons-learned'-on-pending-fire/msg113361/#msg113361

[okashira]

The whole point of the nickel and diming was to set an example for his wife. I agree, she needs to be on board for actual progress.

But his hands are tied for now because they have the 3-mo old.

Why a nanny? I would say daycare better for socialization.
I can understand the nanny while the kid is super young, though.

[MidwestGal]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.

Amen to that.  For myself, and I'd also wager for the vast majority of parents on this board, there are two eras of your life:

B.C. or Before Children, and
A.D. or After Delivery.

For the folks in here who decry something that the wife said in a moment of passion - isn't there one time, just ONE time where you said something that was regretted later?  After the death of a family member, a break-up, an unexpected job loss?  I know I have.

OP - I hope that life gets easier for you.  This is a rough patch but if you're both willing to communicate then maybe everyone can be happy and achieve their goals in due time.  I hope that you find a career (house husband or paid) that speaks to you deeply, where you feel fulfilled and that your spouse finds acceptable.  You do have a helluva financial pot and some good points to discuss with wifey.

[okashira]

These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.

I could have written this OP's story, it is so close to mine. OP's wife is pretty much my wife. In her view, I needed to continue working to satisfy her desire for a large income (mine), status (from my work), and being able to spend as much as we (she) wanted, forever. The fact that I no longer wanted to work and was already FI was immaterial to her, and that was grossly unfair in my view.

Here's what I concluded, after 1,000 discussions with my wife. And let me say that the 1,000 discussions and time made almost no difference in her opinion -- she wanted money and status (she wouldn't say she desired status, but it's couched in all her fears and insecurities, exact same as the OP's). I decided I was not going to continue working unnecessarily for another 15-20 years to satisfy her desires for unnecessary money and status, and I told her that point blank. I told her that outcome is completely off the table, one way or another I'm quitting WAY before then. I told her she could either be part of the solution in how to make that happen, us together, but if she continues to take a "my way or the highway" approach then forget it. Because I would not want to be married to someone who's willing to subjugate me to another 15-20 years in a career I no longer wanted, when we no longer needed any more money (I didn't tell her that part, but it made my own decision-making more clear).

That finally got her attention, on that 1001st discussion. We found a solution for us both, after many painful and long conversations. If I had not been so direct I'd still be working, and she'd be perfectly content to continue the status quo forever. And really, OP's wife is stonewalling far worse than my wife ever did. This is not an ultimatum or threat, it's just laying things out clearly. I think the OP needs to let her know they need to find a way to make it happen for them both, period.

Then the discussions are no longer about "whether" to make it happen, but "how." But make it clear that now that you are FI (and you are completely FI, my friend), then continuing to work with no end in sight, and with no goal, is off the table. Sure, this conversation could wait another month or two.

OP, if you want to see the many similarities and some voyeuristic insight, this thread took a turn towards discussing the exact same issues:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-'lessons-learned'-on-pending-fire/msg113361/#msg113361

Great post.

[rjg]

These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.

I could have written this OP's story, it is so close to mine. OP's wife is pretty much my wife. In her view, I needed to continue working to satisfy her desire for a large income (mine), status (from my work), and being able to spend as much as we (she) wanted, forever. The fact that I no longer wanted to work and was already FI was immaterial to her, and that was grossly unfair in my view.

Here's what I concluded, after 1,000 discussions with my wife. And let me say that the 1,000 discussions and time made almost no difference in her opinion -- she wanted money and status (she wouldn't say she desired status, but it's couched in all her fears and insecurities, exact same as the OP's). I decided I was not going to continue working unnecessarily for another 15-20 years to satisfy her desires for unnecessary money and status, and I told her that point blank. I told her that outcome is completely off the table, one way or another I'm quitting WAY before then. I told her she could either be part of the solution in how to make that happen, us together, but if she continues to take a "my way or the highway" approach then forget it. Because I would not want to be married to someone who's willing to subjugate me to another 15-20 years in a career I no longer wanted, when we no longer needed any more money (I didn't tell her that part, but it made my own decision-making more clear).

That finally got her attention, on that 1001st discussion. We found a solution for us both, after many painful and long conversations. If I had not been so direct I'd still be working, and she'd be perfectly content to continue the status quo forever. And really, OP's wife is stonewalling far worse than my wife ever did. This is not an ultimatum or threat, it's just laying things out clearly. I think the OP needs to let her know they need to find a way to make it happen for them both, period.

Then the discussions are no longer about "whether" to make it happen, but "how." But make it clear that now that you are FI (and you are completely FI, my friend), then continuing to work with no end in sight, and with no goal, is off the table. Sure, this conversation could wait another month or two.

OP, if you want to see the many similarities and some voyeuristic insight, this thread took a turn towards discussing the exact same issues:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-'lessons-learned'-on-pending-fire/msg113361/#msg113361

Thanks! I read a little bit so far and it sounds right up my alley - including the cautionary tale about divorce. Going to read that whole thread.

[frugalnacho]

Amen to that.  For myself, and I'd also wager for the vast majority of parents on this board, there are two eras of your life:

B.C. or Before Children, and
A.D. or After Delivery.

For the folks in here who decry something that the wife said in a moment of passion - isn't there one time, just ONE time where you said something that was regretted later?  After the death of a family member, a break-up, an unexpected job loss?  I know I have.

OP - I hope that life gets easier for you.  This is a rough patch but if you're both willing to communicate then maybe everyone can be happy and achieve their goals in due time.  I hope that you find a career (house husband or paid) that speaks to you deeply, where you feel fulfilled and that your spouse finds acceptable.  You do have a helluva financial pot and some good points to discuss with wifey.

No I have never flipped out and said something I regret after someone made a suggestion.  Sure I have gotten fired up and said stuff that I regret, but those circumstances were totally different.  I didn't take it from the original post that this was a heated screaming match or anything, I took it as a level headed, rational suggestion about their lives.  He didn't take any action without discussion it. I think flipping out and threatening divorce was a crazy and uncalled for reaction (in this specific situation) no matter how stressed out you are.

[ch12]

-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot

At the risk of disclosing my true anti-mustachian lifestyle - my budget is $6,000 per month after tax (with an additional $12,000 per year for emergencies built in) in the midwest. For that amount, people own 4,000 sq foot homes with giant back yards (pool optional), send their kids to private school and maintain a countryclub membership, while taking regular vacations. It's a nice life.
 
But it's not status-heavy NYC rich. And we would suffer a significant lifestyle blow by moving to Europe (which we have considered, because I have citizenship). If status is what's important to your wife, then ER is probably out of the picture - especially since she has an ingrained problem with the male spouse not working.

I'm not married. While I agree with a lot of the compromise advice on this thread, I don't feel that qualified to opine on a sticky situation. I see that you've agreed to defer this discussion until you and your wife feel better, and that seems like a good short-term solution.

I can talk about moving to Europe, since that's something in the works for me right now.
I ran the numbers on moving from NYC to Madrid. I hope that she thinks Madrid is good enough.

You would need around 2,933.63€ (3,937.76$) in Madrid to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,600.00$ in New York, NY (assuming you rent in both cities).

That's the gist. See the attachment for a detailed view of expenses. If you live in Europe, it can be a good base to travel.

One of the local Mustachians (Buck) just moved his family to Spain.
http://bucking-the-trend.com/spain-preparation-green-light/ It might be good for you to read about his journey.

[ThirdTimer]

Wow, yes, I also assumed that you and your wife were earning similar amounts of money. It seems like her resistance is especially unfair in that case--her insisting that you continue on in a job that you hate to maintain your joint lifestyle, when she's already granted herself the luxury of foregoing those jobs for one that pays less, but she actually likes. It also makes her resistance, from a purely selfish point of view, more understandable, since she's getting the lifestyle perks that can be paid for with your high wages without having to suffer the shitty job. It's very hard for me to understand any fair-minded, unselfish way she could possibly object to you contributing equally to the household and childcare and taking a job that you like better that pays similarly to what hers does, for example. In order for this to work, you need to not only care about her wants and needs, but she needs to care about yours. You're really the only person here in this forum who can gauge whether or not that's the case. She knows you're miserable in your job. Does she care at all about that? Or is she perfectly happy for you to suffer as long as you're keeping the family flush?

If the latter is true, there are a lot more problems in your marriage than this money issue. I'd highly, highly recommend John Gottmann's The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. It's an excellent read, all advice based in empirical research, and it could really help you bring her back on your side, if right now she's really just looking out for herself.

Good luck! I hope you're able to make it work.

[Ftao93]

I am not in your position, but this is what I see by your expenses:

1K for food?  What are you eating, extinct species?

2k for 'maintenance'?  Do you hire professional gold scrubbers to come hand wash your gold everything under the light of a full moon with unicorn tears?  Did you marry the Queen of England?

OK, I'm being a jerk.  But let's take a step back.  I feel like I waste a ton.  We go on at least 1 big vacation every other year, own 4 vehicles (all 2 wheeled), and go out far too often.

Even given this, and paying off a commuter motorcycle, we can still live this ridiculously lavish life on <50k a year.  Sure, we don't live in a fancy place, but it's nice.  We don't have a mercedes, but I like our vehicles.  If we needed a car I would easily go out and get a used one, or ::gasp: even finance one.  $1k a month is going into investments before I even see it.

Here's how I approached it:

My wife moved from her parent's house to mine.  Her parents took her out a couple times a week, bought her whatever was needed, etc.  But she did have to work.   

So, instead of saying "honey, I want to stop spending so much out, and we can't keep this lifestyle up..." I came in from the angle of "look how much less people live on."

If the nanny and the maintenance are totaling 4k, you could tell her "that's my pay".

Since you're currently on FMLA, what is the nanny for, exactly?  I would love it if someone paid my wife 2k/mo to just clean up a bit and help with the kiddo.

[cpa cat]

These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.

I disagree. Nickles and dimes quickly turn into $1,000 per month when you're living in that budget range. Packing lunches is probably $200 in savings each month (each). Unless you're willing to admit that it all makes a difference, then you're not really extricating yourself from anything.

[Chrissy]

RJG, I think you have more power than you realize.  Somehow, your wife controls your careers, the child-rearing, the free time, the life philosophy, and the spending though she's making less money than you, while you control... uh... packing your lunch.  Why does she need to be responsible for everything when she has a perfectly good partner to help?  Why is she reluctant to embrace even the little changes which really amount to "more efficiency / less waste"?  Doesn't she want to trust you with some of the burden of your lives?  She's squeezing you out of your marriage, what gives?

I don't think she's truly thought about what her life would look like as a divorced, 39-year-old woman with an infant in NYC.  Even with a good chunk of your money every month, it wouldn't be great.  Nor has she thought about what your life would be like as a bachelor in NYC with a good job.  She wouldn't be doing herself any favors divorcing you, though it's impossible for you to bring these realities up without sounding like a heartless bastard, though a counselor can and hopefully will.

So, once the dust settles, maybe you want to hit up a couples counselor for a post-baby "tune up", address the balance of power, and set some goals for your marriage.  You can do this without turning into a tyrant, but you might need a third party to briefly help you.

[MidwestGal]

No I have never flipped out and said something I regret after someone made a suggestion.  Sure I have gotten fired up and said stuff that I regret...

The point was to put oneself in another's (potentially emotionally fragile) shoes.  It's about trying to see things from the other side of the fence.  I quoted this specifically because the two statements seem to be contradictory, and have me confused.  This happened in the heat of the moment, whatever regretful thing was said in your past?  That seems to be the case for OP's wife as well.  It happens, and hopefully she will apologize for it when calm.  I have been through the process, with a child no less, and never care to even joke about repeating it again.

[frugalnacho]

No I have never flipped out and said something I regret after someone made a suggestion.  Sure I have gotten fired up and said stuff that I regret...

The point was to put oneself in another's (potentially emotionally fragile) shoes.  It's about trying to see things from the other side of the fence.  I quoted this specifically because the two statements seem to be contradictory, and have me confused.  This happened in the heat of the moment, whatever regretful thing was said in your past?  That seems to be the case for OP's wife as well.  It happens, and hopefully she will apologize for it when calm.  I have been through the process, with a child no less, and never care to even joke about repeating it again.

It's not contradictory.  Replace "said something I regret" with "punch someone in the face".  Surely you can imagine a situation where I am pushed beyond my limit and end up punching someone in the face - that does not mean I will fly off the handle and punch someone in the face without being provoked though.  I have never (nor will I ever) punch someone in the face for making a calm and rational suggestion to me. 

The times I have said things I regret was when I was very emotional and was provoked.  I was very emotional because I was being verbally abused and yelled at.   Those situations are radically different from the OPs situation imo. 

[EricL]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.

Guilty as charged.  But while understandable it is still not excusable. Like I said in an earlier post, I've known married couples who found out about adulterous affairs who didn't say the D word until two or three conversations in.  Is birthing and raising a newborn going to be the new Twinkie defense?  Or do men go back to the chauvinist belief women are delicate and over emotional.  And by implication make unilateral marriage decisions?  Sounds like a slippery slope to me.

If the OP did indeed time this conversation poorly he owes his wife an apology and to suck up his miserable life just a little longer until the time is right to re engage.  But if some apology for threatening divorce isn't forthcoming he should seek some counseling.  In any case I hope things work out for the two of them.

[Roses]

How about finding a job in Europe?

In 2003 I got fed up with my job and asked for a transfer to Brussels. I was asked to return to NYC in 2005 but 2 years later I resigned and got a job in Paris. It helped me a lot to keep work interesting and if work at time is boring, I can just take a short flight to Rome or Madrid for the weekend.

Yeah I've already been looking to see if I can transfer to a European office

This sounds like an interesting option.  If you can't get a transfer you could also look for other jobs there even if they're not with American companies.  If you get hired by a European company some will do the paperwork to get you the proper visa.  Your wife may not be able to get a work visa right away though.  Another option is freelancing from Europe with American clients.  Since this is one of your wife's dreams, maybe she'd be more inclined to make some changes knowing this would be the payoff.  Also, since she's into education she probably knows about the higher quality of schools in Europe and may be willing to forgo private schooling there.  It sounds like you could afford a move like that right now and you are in a field with good job opportunities.

[Unique User]

I wouldn't drop it entirely, I would continue to discuss, just try to be as non-confrontational as possible.  Yeah, she is tired and hormones are crazy, but there will never be an ideal time to discuss life changing ideas.  Never.  Dh and I separated when the kiddo was 2, mostly because we hadn't talked about where we wanted to go next.  He had no idea I wanted to leave where we were living and what we were doing and couldn't comprehend doing anything else.  Two years of counseling later, we sold the house in the pricey ski resort, sold the company and took off blindly across the country to a new house by a beach.  Which by the way, was my plan, we just ended up at the Atlantic rather than Pacific.  People we knew in the pricey ski resort told us we were nuts.  Fast forward another 7 years and another move (that again I had to talk him into) and we've both realized that working full time sucks. 

So, a year ago, I ran the numbers on how much we need to not have to work again, unless we want to.  Dh kept saying he could work another 10+ years, it has taken me a year to explain to him that we can probably retire in 7 years, 6 if the kiddo gets a screaming college deal.  Each time it takes me about a year or two to convince him.  I don't bring it up every day or even every week, but at what I view as opportune times.  Go slow and keep what you want in your mind.   Also, counseling is awesome, if you think it would help, do it sooner rather than later.  Totally money well spent.  Good Luck!

[NoraLenderbee]

A lot of people have expressed opinions about the OP's marriage. I don't think there is any benefit to the OP (or anyone) from continuing to argue about whose analysis of their marriage is correct.

[Unique User]

Since your wife is into status, I forgot to add that in the pricey ski town I lived in CO (and many other areas in the west and northwest), a husband that doesn't work is a status symbol. 

[dragoncar]

Since your wife is into status, I forgot to add that in the pricey ski town I lived in CO (and many other areas in the west and northwest), a husband that doesn't work is a status symbol.

It's called the leisure class.  Wife needs to stop thinking like such a pleb.

[mm1970]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

I'm sorry, but your, or any person's ability to spout "complainypants" ends RIGHT HERE if you've never given birth, breastfed, worked, and pumped.  And if by any luck you are a woman who has done all of that, if you DIDN'T suffer from PPD then you STILL have to shut up.

[mm1970]

Kind of feels manipulative but I guess I'm going to need to play the martyr a bit. Hey look- I'm packing peanut butter and jelly to pay for the nanny! Sure - lets go out to dinner. Ill eat beforehand and just come with you.

But I'm still not sure what the point is. Even if we cut back on back on food spending there's still an enormous leap from that to moving somewhere cheaper and me not working.

It would be one thing if we both trying to save up to retire early. But savings isn't really the issue here. We either have more than enough already or millions too little.  I think the bigger issues for her are me not working and the idea of moving out of a big city.

I agree wjth the poster who asked what's in it for my wife. That's a good way to frame it. Right now, here's what I could say:
-happier husband
-no need to hire an outsude person to take care of kid
-flexibility to move around / travel since I woukdnt be tied down to a job (this one is a double edges sword).

But I think the "house husband" thing is the part that she's most resistant too. It seems very important to her that I work. She always talks about her "loser uncle" who doesn't have a steady job. On the flip side her grandfather on her moms side inherited money and never worked a day in his life. She speaks fondly of him.

I think my best shot is to find a job in a lower cost city that i could be passionate about that might pay less and see how that resonates. Of course, having a job necessitates child care spending. And I have no idea what this mythical unicorn job might be.

The point is - you don't want to make an enormous leap.  Or, maybe, you do, but she doesn't.

I know that MMM is all about face-punches and fast, hair-on-fire emergency changes and all.  And for some people, that works and it's needed (like weight loss).
But that is stressful.  And the fact of the matter is, you don't *need* that financially. Maybe you want it, but you don't NEED it. 

When it comes to a big change, you may just have to ease into it.  Maybe you've been thinking about it for years but never broached the subject.  So to you it's something you've wanted forever and she never knew that?  So, plant the seed, water it.

She has in her head a certain lifestyle that she wants.  You have to be working for her to get that.
You need to convince her that she doesn't want that lifestyle.  How do you do that, little by little?
I realize that it seems silly to save $10 by packing a lunch or $100 by foregoing dinner out.  But it really does add up.

So pack your lunch.  Keep track of what it saves (when I started packing my lunch for my husband and myself, I calculated that it's a new car every 5 years.  Sure, it's a Civic, not an Escalade.  But still).  Find other small ways to save money.
Start looking into going to Europe for a year, or whatever.  What would you do, where would you go? What would it cost?  Could you rent your space when you are gone?  Research it, talk about it some night after a glass of wine.
It's not going to become real unless you plan for it.  So that's what is in it for her.  "Well, if we cut back on eating out, it saves "X", if we cut back on the car it saves "Y", if share a nanny it saves "Z"".  Start talking about your overall life goals and figure out, together, how to plan for that.

As far as the mythical job you enjoy, well, you don't know that until to try some things and find it.  But with a job and a newborn, I'd wait.  EITHER look for new jobs/ extra income on the side that could lead to a new job OR work on cutting expenses, because you probably don't have the time or energy for both.

On the not working - did her "loser uncle" have money problems?  The difference between "loser uncle" and "awesome grandfather" simply could be how much money they had.

[Gin1984]

Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.

I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.

+1

Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here.  Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months.  Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified.  The man merely brought up a suggestion.

Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.

Guilty as charged.  But while understandable it is still not excusable. Like I said in an earlier post, I've known married couples who found out about adulterous affairs who didn't say the D word until two or three conversations in.  Is birthing and raising a newborn going to be the new Twinkie defense?  Or do men go back to the chauvinist belief women are delicate and over emotional.  And by implication make unilateral marriage decisions?  Sounds like a slippery slope to me.

If the OP did indeed time this conversation poorly he owes his wife an apology and to suck up his miserable life just a little longer until the time is right to re engage.  But if some apology for threatening divorce isn't forthcoming he should seek some counseling.  In any case I hope things work out for the two of them.

My husband was no more competent to discuss major changes than I was at three month post-birth because of the sleep deprivation.  Look it up, it can cause major physical and psychological problems.  But even past that, hormones do affect some people badly after birth.  I love public speaking, could get up in front of a crowd from a young age with no problem.  Same with test taking, I was great at it.  After birth I had PPD and did not recognize it because it was not depression (which I was screened for), it was anxiety which affect 10% of PPD patients.  I had a panic attack so badly before my thesis defense I was shaking.  And then I failed an exam.  I was lucky, a professor recognized the test anxiety during the exam and called me into the office.  Because of her, I am now in my PhD program and fine.  The hormones that cause this are no less biological than the hormones that cause diabetes.   That has nothing to do with being over emotional and has to do with biological realities.

[Astromarine]

yeeeeah, bunch of fellas saying pure bullshit right now. As a father of a 7 month old, listen to the ladies in this thread. you guys mansplaining about what is or isn't due to pregnancy is getting a bit cringey.

As for the OP: Have you thought about changing the approach, from a "stay at home dad" and investment income, to something way more exciting-sounding and "acceptable? Suggest to her that you want to start your own company. This site is never about doing fuck-all all day anyway, it's to retire to INCREASE meaningful productivity. I've found that in discussing this with my wife and family, the second approach works much better. You're not retiring, you're starting a business from home. Of course, it'd REALLY help to move somewhere cheaper so you didn't have to be quite so profitable right off the bat, and maybe you could take a bit of money from savings and invest it into the company. And hey, maybe there's some nice tax opportunities there. etc etc etc. She might be WAY more into that idea, and maybe it'd let you find a meaningful path that uses the skills you already have.

[okashira]

I'm not buying the sleep deprivation thing. They pay a nanny fraking 24,000 per year. What's the point of that then?
Still not ok to throw around the D word