Author Topic: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?  (Read 31703 times)

dragoncar

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2014, 05:31:15 PM »
Look carefully at your bill.  You will see a line item for extra energy tax on Obama haters

I don't hate this guy because his name is Obama; I hate Obama because of his actions.
And, no, I'm not a Republican, nor a Democrat. I just call it as I see it.

^this guy argues seriously about whether a fictional energy tax on Obama haters applies to him because he doesn't hate all Obamas, just one particular Obama.

And the answer is yes, the tax still applies.

I'm not arguing seriously about that. I'm addressing the implication that I somehow 'hate Obama', and that I had a axe to grind to begin with & that's why I'm complaining.
NO.
I'm complaining because I have seen my electric bill skyrocket for no apparent reason. The only plausible explanation I can think of is-- and that I have heard a lot discussed on the news, talk radio, etc--is that Obama's executive orders have caused this. Again, I'm not 100% sure it is the reason. That's why I came here to ask.

Really?  That's the only plausible explanation for increased energy costs?  Not, say, supply and demand?

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2014, 05:31:47 PM »
Quote
What executive order(s) do this? They're all on whitehouse.gov by date.
I am also wondering (and seriously not trying to be an ass or be sarcastic, just trying to get informed)... what executive orders have there been specific to cap and trade? what system do we now have in place? I feel like this is important and I should know about it. (also I feel like I would have heard more people at work bitch about it, since I work in the fossil fuel industry, but who knows, I miss out on plenty of things...)

That is what I am trying to figure out, also. I have read about this in newspapers, heard about it in the news, on the internet, and also on talk radio. But I will now check out the link you provided to get the facts.   
Quote
I'm guessing you are referring specifically to $/KWH costs rather than "electric bills", but personally, my electric bill has skyrocketed this year because it's been cold as fuck. I actually made a pretty cool chart showing my average daily KWH usage for the last 12+ months in conjunction with the number of heating degree days/cooling degree days, because I also am upset with my bills/usage.
Yes, I'm referring to the cost of KWH. My usage has been in the same ballpark, more or less, for the past 5 years or so. Nothing that would justify a 250%-300% increase in just 2 years. Something else is going on here.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 10:06:51 PM by joer1212 »

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2014, 05:37:15 PM »
This sort of reminds me of the ammunition shortage that occurred shortly after the November 2012 elections. Some folks were certain the gubmint was behind it, and some of these same folks were hoarding ammunition in fear of new gun laws being enacted. The ammunition shortage was in fact caused by a huge spike in demand from consumers and a reluctance on the part of ammunition suppliers to ramp up production, as they knew full well the surge in demand would not last. After a while prices returned to normal levels, but some folks still think the gubmint was responsible.

Joe, respectfully, I think your arguments are a stretch. There is no shortage of fracking for natural gas in the US, in point of fact the US is undergoing an energy boom not seen in quite a long time thanks to new drilling technologies. We are at the end of a very unseasonably cold winter however, and demand for natural gas has spiked accordingly.  Add in the local nuke going offline for a few days....

http://nypost.com/2014/02/09/power-price-spike-for-nysers-on-con-ed-bills-in-middle-of-winter/

Unless Obama has prevented the expansion of fracking, sabotaged a nuclear plant, and somehow brought the polar vortex down upon his base of blue states then I just don't see the link between him and the unfortunately higher power bill New Yorkers (and damn near all of us on the East Coast) are paying.

I'm sorry but this simply doesn't apply to me. I rent, so heating has nothing to do with such a dramatic rise in my electric bills over the last 2 years.
And I respectfully disagree with the ammunition analogy. Those people were being paranoid about what might happen. I'm reacting to what has already happened.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2014, 05:41:42 PM »
Look carefully at your bill.  You will see a line item for extra energy tax on Obama haters

I don't hate this guy because his name is Obama; I hate Obama because of his actions.
And, no, I'm not a Republican, nor a Democrat. I just call it as I see it.

^this guy argues seriously about whether a fictional energy tax on Obama haters applies to him because he doesn't hate all Obamas, just one particular Obama.

And the answer is yes, the tax still applies.

I'm not arguing seriously about that. I'm addressing the implication that I somehow 'hate Obama', and that I had a axe to grind to begin with & that's why I'm complaining.
NO.
I'm complaining because I have seen my electric bill skyrocket for no apparent reason. The only plausible explanation I can think of is-- and that I have heard a lot discussed on the news, talk radio, etc--is that Obama's executive orders have caused this. Again, I'm not 100% sure it is the reason. That's why I came here to ask.

Really?  That's the only plausible explanation for increased energy costs?  Not, say, supply and demand?

I can't see how "supply and demand" accounts for a tripling of my electric rate. I can see a 20%-40% increase (which is already large) but nothing of this magnitude.

Another Reader

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2014, 05:50:05 PM »
Do a scientific investigation here.  Do you have all your utility bills?  If so, compare the bills from the same period each year.  How many Kw hours?  What was the price per Kw hour?  Does the bill show an average temperature during the billing period?  What about summer air conditioning?  Did you experience large increases then?  After you look at the bills and maybe look back through the news archives, you should have a pretty good idea of what happened and why.

If you want a good conspiracy theory, look at gas prices in California.  The gas mix for California is only refined in California and there is a limited refinery capacity.  Every year in January, prices start to go up.  Suddenly refineries shut down for repairs and the supply is cut.  Prices go up more and don't come down until the end of the summer driving period.  A month ago, the news had stories about gas prices going to $4,00 by March.  Gas was around $3.35 then.  Today I saw signs at $3.89.  Yep, $4.00 in the next week or so.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2014, 05:55:18 PM »
Do a scientific investigation here.  Do you have all your utility bills?  If so, compare the bills from the same period each year.  How many Kw hours?  What was the price per Kw hour?  Does the bill show an average temperature during the billing period?  What about summer air conditioning?  Did you experience large increases then?  After you look at the bills and maybe look back through the news archives, you should have a pretty good idea of what happened and why.

If you want a good conspiracy theory, look at gas prices in California.  The gas mix for California is only refined in California and there is a limited refinery capacity.  Every year in January, prices start to go up.  Suddenly refineries shut down for repairs and the supply is cut.  Prices go up more and don't come down until the end of the summer driving period.  A month ago, the news had stories about gas prices going to $4,00 by March.  Gas was around $3.35 then.  Today I saw signs at $3.89.  Yep, $4.00 in the next week or so.

Did this already, and, yes, my costs have increased KPH. I never have any doubts about this. The only doubts I have is the reason for it.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2014, 06:07:39 PM »
So your conclusion was that Obama caused your local electric bill to triple because you saw him casually mention something on TV?  Even though the random bill that you site that would have little effect wasn't even passed?  That sounds entirely reasonable and well thought out.  I mean, obviously the President controls pretty much everything.  All he has to do is wave his magic wand and raise electric rates or make the economy hum again.

You're missing the best part of the story though.  I heard that he only raised rates in Brooklyn, Pilsen (Chicago), and The Mission (SF) and left everyone else's alone.  It's because he hates hipsters.  It's true.  They said so on redstate.

The president can and has signed executive orders to circumvents congress on the cap and trade issue. So, even though the law was not formally passed (?), the net effect of Obama's executive orders are the same as it it had been passed.

Do you have a source for this?  I googled around a little, including "Cap and trade executive order" and "Obama cap and trade executive order" and haven't been able to find a single reputable news article.  There is one from infowars though.  So there's that.  Therefore, my conclusion is that you should read this post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

I found this, which coincides with when my energy bills started skyrocketing:

http://www.americandg.com/about-american-dg-energy/news/news-releases-2012/item/president-signs-executive-order-accelerating-investment-in-energy-efficiency
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:48:19 AM by joer1212 »

Another Reader

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2014, 06:09:36 PM »
How does the cost per Kw hour vary throughout the year?  Can you tie specific events, such as a plant going off line, to the sharp increases?

It's easy to blame one person or a political motive for this, but more likely it's a confluence of events and the inability of the delivering utility to hedge costs.  The partial deregulation that took place around 15 years ago really put the utility that delivers the electricity at the mercy of the generators of the electricity.  Whatever generation capacity Con Ed does not control directly has to be purchased when it's needed.  They are allowed in most cases to pass increased costs on to the consumer.

dragoncar

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2014, 06:10:12 PM »

I can't see how "supply and demand" accounts for a tripling of my electric rate. I can see a 20%-40% increase (which is already large) but nothing of this magnitude.

Ok, you convinced me with your highly scientific gut feeling that this is all obamas fault.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2014, 10:12:33 PM »

I can't see how "supply and demand" accounts for a tripling of my electric rate. I can see a 20%-40% increase (which is already large) but nothing of this magnitude.

Ok, you convinced me with your highly scientific gut feeling that this is all obamas fault.

I didn't say it is Obama's fault, I said I suspect it is. Read carefully. That's why I started this thread. I thought perhaps someone could shed some light on the subject.
Also, did you read the link I posted? I'm not sure what ramifications this has had, but his actions should definitely not be ruled out. However, you seem hellbent on defending Obama for some reason. I, on the other hand, have no allegiance to anyone. I just want to find out the facts.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 10:23:10 PM by joer1212 »

dragoncar

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2014, 10:24:05 PM »

I can't see how "supply and demand" accounts for a tripling of my electric rate. I can see a 20%-40% increase (which is already large) but nothing of this magnitude.

Ok, you convinced me with your highly scientific gut feeling that this is all obamas fault.

I didn't say it is Obama's fault, I said I suspect it is. Read carefully. That's why I started this thread. I thought perhaps someone could shed some light on the subject.
Also, did you see the link I posted? I'm not sure what ramifications this has, but his actions should definitely not be ruled out. However, you seem hellbent on protecting Obama for some reason. I, on the other hand, have no allegiance to anyone. I just want to find out the facts.

I said you convinced me.  Read carefully.

Eric

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2014, 11:07:57 PM »
Also, did you read the link I posted?

I think you've pinpointed it!  My advice to you is to sell your factory.  Or at least cut out a shift.  That's why your electric bill is so high.

Quote
American DG Energy Inc. (NYSE MKT: ADGE), a leading On‑Site Utility, offering clean electricity, heat, hot water and cooling solutions to hospitality, healthcare, housing and athletic facilities, today announced that it will benefit from an Executive Order from the White House entitled “Accelerating Investment in Industrial Energy Efficiency.”  The goal of the Executive Order is to supply some 40 gigawatts of energy in the US by 2020 from greater efficiency such as Combined Heat and Power (CHP) systems.  The Departments of Energy, Commerce, and Agriculture, and the Environmental Protection Agency, in coordination with the National Economic Council, the Domestic Policy Council, the Council on Environmental Quality, and the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall coordinate policies to encourage investment in industrial efficiency in order to reduce costs for industrial users, improve U.S. competitiveness, create jobs, and reduce harmful air pollution.  In doing so, they are required to engage States, industrial companies, utility companies, and other stakeholders to speed up this type of investment. In addition, the Department of Energy and the Environmental Protection Agency released a companion report to the Order that presented the economic and environmental benefits of CHP.

Bill76

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2014, 06:42:28 AM »
Utilities contract for natural gas and attempt to hedge costs.  I don't think anyone anticipated this cold of a winter, and Con Ed probably had to go to the current market to obtain enough fuel, or if they operate in an exchange, to buy the power.  Look at the poor people that heat directly with propane.  Prices are more than double what they were and supplies are short.

This is a good point that I should've mentioned.  Fuel prices are ALWAYS higher on the spot market.  I've seen natural gas prices spike 40-50 times higher during a cold snap when supplies are somehow constrained (by pipeline capacity or whatever).  And if a utility has to buy power from another utility during a demand spike because they don't have enough available capacity, they can sometimes expect to pay 10-15 times what it would cost them to generate that power themselves.  All of that gets counted as part of the fuel cost adjustment.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the OP's bills.  I'm pretty sure most states require detailed billing that shows the base rate, fuel costs, and any other adjustments as separate line items.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2014, 06:51:57 AM »
Utilities contract for natural gas and attempt to hedge costs.  I don't think anyone anticipated this cold of a winter, and Con Ed probably had to go to the current market to obtain enough fuel, or if they operate in an exchange, to buy the power.  Look at the poor people that heat directly with propane.  Prices are more than double what they were and supplies are short.

This is a good point that I should've mentioned.  Fuel prices are ALWAYS higher on the spot market.  I've seen natural gas prices spike 40-50 times higher during a cold snap when supplies are somehow constrained (by pipeline capacity or whatever).  And if a utility has to buy power from another utility during a demand spike because they don't have enough available capacity, they can sometimes expect to pay 10-15 times what it would cost them to generate that power themselves.  All of that gets counted as part of the fuel cost adjustment.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the OP's bills.  I'm pretty sure most states require detailed billing that shows the base rate, fuel costs, and any other adjustments as separate line items.


I believe this to be the problem that hit me a few weeks back. In 18 years I never had to fill my propane tank up north at our vacation cabin more than once a year. I had to fill it a month ago and in 18 years i never paid over 600$ it was 1300$ and some change claiming some shortage. Govenor got involved and two weeks later the price dropped from 6$+ to 3$ and change. So in this case at least it seams some politics were obviously involved but I am still now sure how that worked. But i do know i am out 700$. 55 days below freezing was the obvious culprit of usage but when you need it most you get nailed seemingly. Just glad our Govenor did step in.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:18:26 AM by soccerluvof4 »

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2014, 07:01:30 AM »
Also, did you read the link I posted?

I think you've pinpointed it!  My advice to you is to sell your factory.  Or at least cut out a shift.  That's why your electric bill is so high.

Quote
American DG Energy Inc. (NYSE MKT: ADGE), a leading On‑Site Utility, offering clean electricity, heat, hot water and cooling solutions to hospitality, healthcare, housing and athletic facilities, today announced that it will benefit from an Executive Order from the White House entitled “Accelerating Investment in Industrial Energy Efficiency.”  The goal of the Executive Order is to supply some 40 gigawatts of energy in the US by 2020 from greater efficiency such as Combined Heat and Power (CHP) systems.  The Departments of Energy, Commerce, and Agriculture, and the Environmental Protection Agency, in coordination with the National Economic Council, the Domestic Policy Council, the Council on Environmental Quality, and the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall coordinate policies to encourage investment in industrial efficiency in order to reduce costs for industrial users, improve U.S. competitiveness, create jobs, and reduce harmful air pollution.  In doing so, they are required to engage States, industrial companies, utility companies, and other stakeholders to speed up this type of investment. In addition, the Department of Energy and the Environmental Protection Agency released a companion report to the Order that presented the economic and environmental benefits of CHP.

haha. I was going to ask if HE even read the link.

if anything, improvements in energy efficiency should eventually cause electricity costs to go DOWN, due to supply and demand as mentioned earlier. plus, this:

Quote
The Departments of Energy, Commerce, and Agriculture, and the Environmental Protection Agency, in coordination with the National Economic Council, the Domestic Policy Council, the Council on Environmental Quality, and the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall coordinate policies to encourage investment in industrial efficiency in order to reduce costs for industrial users, improve U.S. competitiveness, create jobs, and reduce harmful air pollution.  In doing so, they are required to engage States, industrial companies, utility companies, and other stakeholders to speed up this type of investment. In addition, the Department of Energy and the Environmental Protection Agency released a companion report to the Order that presented the economic and environmental benefits of CHP.

...actually sounds pretty vague and certainly not something that would take effect immediately and cause prices to double or triple.

also, Bill76's point about what happens to prices when the utility can't/hasn't hedged is a really good one. it may seem to you (joer) that increased demand would "only cause an increase of 20%-40%" (which I suspect is another number you just pulled out of your butt), but I think Bill makes it clear why the increase could be much more.

seriously, I doubt any of us are "hellbent on defending Obama." frankly, you are the one who sounds irrational due to your high level of intensity that so far doesn't seemed to be backed by any sound argument.

warfreak2

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2014, 09:12:38 AM »
if anything, improvements in energy efficiency should eventually cause electricity costs to go DOWN, due to supply and demand as mentioned earlier.
You would think so, but if we're talking about overall bill rather than unit cost, the opposite is the case. More efficient energy (a lower unit cost) makes it economically viable to use a lot more of it; this is the Jevens paradox.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2014, 09:36:20 AM »

I can't see how "supply and demand" accounts for a tripling of my electric rate. I can see a 20%-40% increase (which is already large) but nothing of this magnitude.

Ok, you convinced me with your highly scientific gut feeling that this is all obamas fault.

I didn't say it is Obama's fault, I said I suspect it is. Read carefully. That's why I started this thread. I thought perhaps someone could shed some light on the subject.
Also, did you see the link I posted? I'm not sure what ramifications this has, but his actions should definitely not be ruled out. However, you seem hellbent on protecting Obama for some reason. I, on the other hand, have no allegiance to anyone. I just want to find out the facts.

I said you convinced me.  Read carefully.

You know, I'm really beginning to suspect that you're just trolling & trying to win a popularity contest here. If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, please go away. You're just littering this thread with spam-like answers that makes it difficult for me to sort through and see the good ones.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:39:12 AM by joer1212 »

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2014, 10:16:57 AM »
Also, did you read the link I posted?

I think you've pinpointed it!  My advice to you is to sell your factory.  Or at least cut out a shift.  That's why your electric bill is so high.

Quote
American DG Energy Inc. (NYSE MKT: ADGE), a leading On‑Site Utility, offering clean electricity, heat, hot water and cooling solutions to hospitality, healthcare, housing and athletic facilities, today announced that it will benefit from an Executive Order from the White House entitled “Accelerating Investment in Industrial Energy Efficiency.”  The goal of the Executive Order is to supply some 40 gigawatts of energy in the US by 2020 from greater efficiency such as Combined Heat and Power (CHP) systems.  The Departments of Energy, Commerce, and Agriculture, and the Environmental Protection Agency, in coordination with the National Economic Council, the Domestic Policy Council, the Council on Environmental Quality, and the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall coordinate policies to encourage investment in industrial efficiency in order to reduce costs for industrial users, improve U.S. competitiveness, create jobs, and reduce harmful air pollution.  In doing so, they are required to engage States, industrial companies, utility companies, and other stakeholders to speed up this type of investment. In addition, the Department of Energy and the Environmental Protection Agency released a companion report to the Order that presented the economic and environmental benefits of CHP.

Increased industrial costs are usually passed onto consumers.
From what I understand, Obama--through legislative fiat--is requiring that a substantial portion of energy produced is "green" energy (i.e. not coal, etc). If this is the case, it will increase costs across the board, which will be passed onto consumers.
These articles elaborate on this subject. I'm not sure how objective they are, though the Obama quotes are accurate, as I've heard him utter those words myself:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/energy/item/11160-sky-high-electric-bills-courtesy-of-obama-epa%E2%80%99s-war-on-coal

http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/epa-powerplant-closures/

Again, I didn't post here to get into a political debate with anyone. I just wanted a straight answer on what might be the cause of a nearly tripling of my electricity rates. Calling my utility company didn't help, as the phone rep only knows that "costs to purchase energy have increased" (I knew that already--that's why I called them!). What she doesn't know is why costs have increased. Neither do I, at least not for sure.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:45:41 AM by joer1212 »

NeverWasACornflakeGirl

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2014, 10:34:16 AM »
Utilities contract for natural gas and attempt to hedge costs.  I don't think anyone anticipated this cold of a winter, and Con Ed probably had to go to the current market to obtain enough fuel, or if they operate in an exchange, to buy the power.  Look at the poor people that heat directly with propane.  Prices are more than double what they were and supplies are short.

This is a good point that I should've mentioned.  Fuel prices are ALWAYS higher on the spot market.  I've seen natural gas prices spike 40-50 times higher during a cold snap when supplies are somehow constrained (by pipeline capacity or whatever).  And if a utility has to buy power from another utility during a demand spike because they don't have enough available capacity, they can sometimes expect to pay 10-15 times what it would cost them to generate that power themselves.  All of that gets counted as part of the fuel cost adjustment.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the OP's bills.  I'm pretty sure most states require detailed billing that shows the base rate, fuel costs, and any other adjustments as separate line items.

Bill, you are entirely too reasonable, what with your "facts," and "professional experience".

FrugalSpendthrift

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2014, 10:37:06 AM »
Joe, respectfully, I think your arguments are a stretch. There is no shortage of fracking for natural gas in the US, in point of fact the US is undergoing an energy boom not seen in quite a long time thanks to new drilling technologies. We are at the end of a very unseasonably cold winter however, and demand for natural gas has spiked accordingly.  Add in the local nuke going offline for a few days....

http://nypost.com/2014/02/09/power-price-spike-for-nysers-on-con-ed-bills-in-middle-of-winter/

Unless Obama has prevented the expansion of fracking, sabotaged a nuclear plant, and somehow brought the polar vortex down upon his base of blue states then I just don't see the link between him and the unfortunately higher power bill New Yorkers (and damn near all of us on the East Coast) are paying.

I'm sorry but this simply doesn't apply to me. I rent, so heating has nothing to do with such a dramatic rise in my electric bills over the last 2 years.

Supply and demand does apply to you, but it doesn't confirm your hypothesis, so you should quickly discredit it.  It doesn't matter that you rent and heating isn't part of your electric bill.  The electric that you are consuming comes from a fuel source that other people use for heating, which is driving up the demand and the price.



joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2014, 10:54:11 AM »
Joe, respectfully, I think your arguments are a stretch. There is no shortage of fracking for natural gas in the US, in point of fact the US is undergoing an energy boom not seen in quite a long time thanks to new drilling technologies. We are at the end of a very unseasonably cold winter however, and demand for natural gas has spiked accordingly.  Add in the local nuke going offline for a few days....

http://nypost.com/2014/02/09/power-price-spike-for-nysers-on-con-ed-bills-in-middle-of-winter/

Unless Obama has prevented the expansion of fracking, sabotaged a nuclear plant, and somehow brought the polar vortex down upon his base of blue states then I just don't see the link between him and the unfortunately higher power bill New Yorkers (and damn near all of us on the East Coast) are paying.

I'm sorry but this simply doesn't apply to me. I rent, so heating has nothing to do with such a dramatic rise in my electric bills over the last 2 years.

Supply and demand does apply to you, but it doesn't confirm your hypothesis, so you should quickly discredit it.  It doesn't matter that you rent and heating isn't part of your electric bill.  The electric that you are consuming comes from a fuel source that other people use for heating, which is driving up the demand and the price.



I thought you meant the reason for my bill increase was due to my increased use of electric heating.
However, keep in mind that my bill did not triple overnight. It took over 2 years. So I doubt it's due to an unusually cold winter (driving demand) this year.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 02:32:29 PM by joer1212 »

MustachianAccountant

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2014, 11:15:59 AM »
Therefore, my conclusion is that you should read this post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

Agree 100%. WHY are you trying to find out the reason for your increased rates? Are you hoping there's something you can do about it once you find the root cause? Short of moving (which you seem unwilling to do), it's not likely you have any control over your electricity rates. Best to just be flexible, and use less where possible.
If you just want to whine about something you can't control, well, I doubt you'll find an enthusiastic community for that here. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums you can go to and complain about Obama (or the Tea Party), and find willing ears.

dragoncar

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2014, 11:31:55 AM »

You know, I'm really beginning to suspect that you're just trolling & trying to win a popularity contest here. If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, please go away. You're just littering this thread with spam-like answers that makes it difficult for me to sort through and see the good ones.

Popularity contest?  Well, I am the prettiest princess after all.

I did present you with a completely plausible reason, which you dismissed because you "can't see" supply and demand causing more than a completely pulled out of your ass "20%-40%" increase.  As if commodity prices have never increased more than 40% before.  So who's trolling who?

Trying225

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2014, 01:47:06 PM »
My goal this month was to cut my electric usage in order to cut my bill. I view investments in "green energy" in my home as a long term savings system. After doing the math I realized that recouping costs meant waiting a little longer to enjoy the savings. This meant that I bought some smart power surge protectors like Belkin's surge protector that controls my TV system (when the TV is on, my DVD player is on, when the TV is off, my DVD player is off, etc.), readjusted my schedule for using my clothes dryer (an energy hog), got my windows fixed (they had been letting air in) and cut off heat to my 3rd floor which I rarely use nor do I need to heat it. My employer offers a 20% discount for one energy company which gave me a better rate and will give me a fixed rate over the summer. My state is deregulated when it comes to electricity providers so I can choose between suppliers which is nice.

My usage went down from at its peak 85kWh to at its peak 25kWh. My "budget" amount this month was $20.00 cheaper. I did a lot of math to determine how much each appliance in my house was costing me in terms of energy usage when used and possible phantom energy that it's using when I'm not at home. I've tried to cut off all phantom power in my house. When I get paid in March, I will buy LEDs for the bulbs that need to be changed. For some reason, I always forget to change bulbs and end up having like 2 out of 3 working so I needed to buy more anyways. My next goal is lowering my gas usage. A lot of research and math has been employed.  Last night I configured my computer's energy saving settings, as well. Hopefully that will help, too.

I don't have the money to buy a new, more efficient energy star refrigerator, dryer or washer but I'm doing everything I can without buying new ones.

I think we are just going to have to learn to adapt to different situations for energy production and supply. I do think that the less we use, the better.

That's just my two cents.


joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2014, 02:07:35 PM »
Therefore, my conclusion is that you should read this post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

Agree 100%. WHY are you trying to find out the reason for your increased rates? Are you hoping there's something you can do about it once you find the root cause? Short of moving (which you seem unwilling to do), it's not likely you have any control over your electricity rates. Best to just be flexible, and use less where possible.
If you just want to whine about something you can't control, well, I doubt you'll find an enthusiastic community for that here. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums you can go to and complain about Obama (or the Tea Party), and find willing ears.


(1) If your electricity bill tripled, wouldn't you want to know the cause? 

(2) I'd like to know if there might me 'light at the end of the tunnel', so to speak.
If Obama's policies are the cause of the increases, at least I have some solace knowing that there might be relief when he leaves office....

(3) ....if he is not the cause of the increases, I can take steps to offset these costs & also modify my future plans with regard to early retirement. This might include moving to another state (or country) and/or looking into utility company alternatives & energy alternatives. I can't move now because of my situation, but will be able to when I retire in about 8 years.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2014, 02:21:39 PM »
My goal this month was to cut my electric usage in order to cut my bill. I view investments in "green energy" in my home as a long term savings system. After doing the math I realized that recouping costs meant waiting a little longer to enjoy the savings. This meant that I bought some smart power surge protectors like Belkin's surge protector that controls my TV system (when the TV is on, my DVD player is on, when the TV is off, my DVD player is off, etc.), readjusted my schedule for using my clothes dryer (an energy hog), got my windows fixed (they had been letting air in) and cut off heat to my 3rd floor which I rarely use nor do I need to heat it. My employer offers a 20% discount for one energy company which gave me a better rate and will give me a fixed rate over the summer. My state is deregulated when it comes to electricity providers so I can choose between suppliers which is nice.

My usage went down from at its peak 85kWh to at its peak 25kWh. My "budget" amount this month was $20.00 cheaper. I did a lot of math to determine how much each appliance in my house was costing me in terms of energy usage when used and possible phantom energy that it's using when I'm not at home. I've tried to cut off all phantom power in my house. When I get paid in March, I will buy LEDs for the bulbs that need to be changed. For some reason, I always forget to change bulbs and end up having like 2 out of 3 working so I needed to buy more anyways. My next goal is lowering my gas usage. A lot of research and math has been employed.  Last night I configured my computer's energy saving settings, as well. Hopefully that will help, too.

I don't have the money to buy a new, more efficient energy star refrigerator, dryer or washer but I'm doing everything I can without buying new ones.

I think we are just going to have to learn to adapt to different situations for energy production and supply. I do think that the less we use, the better.

That's just my two cents.

This sounds like a sensible plan. The only reason I haven't adopted something like this is because my electric bills used to be so low ($23-$28/mo), so I focused on saving money elsewhere.
How long would it take to recoup the cost of purchasing an LED bulb with a lower energy bill? I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2014, 02:26:21 PM »
I'll grant you that Obama seems bent on taking away the frugal lifestyle option

Yes he has.
So far he's acted like a tyrant who is inconvenienced with "congress" and a constitution.
I had planned on purchasing a catastrophic health plan when I take an early retirement in 8 years, but now I may be faced with much higher health insurance costs thanks to ObamaCare. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 02:40:22 PM by joer1212 »

Gin1984

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2014, 02:30:30 PM »
I'll grant you that Obama seems bent on taking away the frugal lifestyle option

Yes he has.
So far he's acted like a tyrant who is inconvenienced with "congress" and a constitution.
I had planned on purchasing a catastrophic health plan when I take an early retirement in 8 years, but now I may be faced with much higher costs thanks to ObamaCare.
ROFL.  I know you meant this seriously but I am seriously dying of laughter over here based on your comment.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2014, 03:25:13 PM »
How long would it take to recoup the cost of purchasing an LED bulb with a lower energy bill? I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.

depends on your numbers, but you can calculate it pretty easily based on the wattage of the bulb you're replacing and its LED replacement, how many hours that bulb is on each day, your $/KWH rate, etc. I did this before I put them in my most-used rooms. one downside is that my house was built in 1918 and is a poorly maintained rental... I think there is some faulty wiring or just a couple bad fixtures or something because I had a brand new ($8!) LED bulb burn out a couple weeks after I put it in, and another one started flickering (so I immediately swapped it back with the old incandescent, I was quickly eating into my cost savings!). I guess it could have been faulty bulbs, but the ones I bought (off Amazon) had really good reviews, and I had read online that your wiring/fixtures could be an issue (and with our house I would definitely not be surprised).

warfreak2

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2014, 03:28:56 PM »
I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.
Stop doing that, then. Seriously, if energy is too expensive, use less of it. Otherwise, you're on the wrong forum.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2014, 03:39:30 PM »
How long would it take to recoup the cost of purchasing an LED bulb with a lower energy bill? I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.

depends on your numbers, but you can calculate it pretty easily based on the wattage of the bulb you're replacing and its LED replacement, how many hours that bulb is on each day, your $/KWH rate, etc. I did this before I put them in my most-used rooms. one downside is that my house was built in 1918 and is a poorly maintained rental... I think there is some faulty wiring or just a couple bad fixtures or something because I had a brand new ($8!) LED bulb burn out a couple weeks after I put it in, and another one started flickering (so I immediately swapped it back with the old incandescent, I was quickly eating into my cost savings!). I guess it could have been faulty bulbs, but the ones I bought (off Amazon) had really good reviews, and I had read online that your wiring/fixtures could be an issue (and with our house I would definitely not be surprised).

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm afraid of. I would hate to invest such a large sum of money for just one bulb, and have it break or crap out on me.
I'm hoping that over time, with the economies of scale kicking in, the cost of LED bulbs will come down enough to be in line with what incandescent bulbs cost today. Then I'll bite.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 03:44:11 PM by joer1212 »

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2014, 03:43:11 PM »
I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.
Stop doing that, then. Seriously, if energy is too expensive, use less of it. Otherwise, you're on the wrong forum.

Well, it's expensive now. It wasn't expensive at all for me just 2 years ago, so I didn't pay much attention to the types of light bulbs I used.
The only problem is that the cost of some of these newer bulbs is exorbitant compared to incandescent bulbs, so there isn't any bargain to be had there, either. At least not yet. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 03:45:00 PM by joer1212 »

warfreak2

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2014, 03:50:53 PM »
Energy-efficient bulbs aren't particularly new, nor are they a high startup cost. They were being handed out for free at my school 15 years ago. I'm sure you can find that some bulbs are new and expensive but that doesn't matter in the slightest.

It also doesn't matter that you got energy cheaper 2 years ago. Your situation changed, either change with it or build a time machine. If you go the time machine route, hurry up, because time machines probably use a lot of energy and that isn't going to get much cheaper any time soon.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2014, 03:51:22 PM »
it seems like you are worried about a lot of things but refuse to actually run the numbers on anything.

I'm confused about why you are even interested in this blog or forum if you don't want to optimize your lifestyle and would rather bitch about Obama.

Cromacster

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2014, 04:17:42 PM »
I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.
Stop doing that, then. Seriously, if energy is too expensive, use less of it. Otherwise, you're on the wrong forum.

Well, it's expensive now. It wasn't expensive at all for me just 2 years ago, so I didn't pay much attention to the types of light bulbs I used.
The only problem is that the cost of some of these newer bulbs is exorbitant compared to incandescent bulbs, so there isn't any bargain to be had there, either. At least not yet.

In the land of Washington, in the fires of the White House, the Dark Lord Obama forged in secret, a master power plant, to control all others. And into this power plant he poured all his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. One power plant to rule them all. One by one, the free peoples of the United States fell to the high prices of the one power plant.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2014, 06:08:38 PM »
Energy-efficient bulbs aren't particularly new, nor are they a high startup cost. They were being handed out for free at my school 15 years ago. I'm sure you can find that some bulbs are new and expensive but that doesn't matter in the slightest.

It also doesn't matter that you got energy cheaper 2 years ago. Your situation changed, either change with it or build a time machine. If you go the time machine route, hurry up, because time machines probably use a lot of energy and that isn't going to get much cheaper any time soon.

I just checked out some of the prices of energy efficient bulbs, and the cheapest ones I could find were $7 each. Almost $6 each for lower wattage bulbs.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 06:10:54 PM by joer1212 »




Cromacster

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2014, 06:56:36 PM »
Energy-efficient bulbs aren't particularly new, nor are they a high startup cost. They were being handed out for free at my school 15 years ago. I'm sure you can find that some bulbs are new and expensive but that doesn't matter in the slightest.

It also doesn't matter that you got energy cheaper 2 years ago. Your situation changed, either change with it or build a time machine. If you go the time machine route, hurry up, because time machines probably use a lot of energy and that isn't going to get much cheaper any time soon.

I just checked out some of the prices of energy efficient bulbs, and the cheapest ones I could find were $7 each. Almost $6 each for lower wattage bulbs.

6 or 7? hoard! stock pile them bitches.  The Phillips L (considered the best LED bulb on the market) is 60.  6 or 7 is a steal!

1.97 for a 4 pack of cfl (40w so you won't be able to land a helicopter with them).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-40W-Equivalent-Soft-White-3500K-Twister-CFL-Light-Bulb-4-Pack-ES5M8094/100686987

Or just search "light bulb" on the forum and find all the good information the great people here have put forth.  Better look fast though, the NSA is going to remove it soon.  It's just too frugal for the masses.


Do you ever leave your cave?  Or even read MMM.  I'm starting to get the feeling were just getting trolled.......Biden?  Is that you?  Ah man, thats where the Joe in your name comes from.  All this time.  You dog you.

FrugalSpendthrift

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2014, 07:09:40 PM »
I've always used traditional incandescent bulbs.
Stop doing that, then. Seriously, if energy is too expensive, use less of it. Otherwise, you're on the wrong forum.

Well, it's expensive now. It wasn't expensive at all for me just 2 years ago, so I didn't pay much attention to the types of light bulbs I used.
The only problem is that the cost of some of these newer bulbs is exorbitant compared to incandescent bulbs, so there isn't any bargain to be had there, either. At least not yet.
The cost of powering incandescent bulbs is exorbitant compared to all of the new LED's and CFL's.  You can fix your own energy situation.  You don't have to wait for Obama to leave the office.

TomTX

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2014, 07:30:32 PM »
Energy-efficient bulbs aren't particularly new, nor are they a high startup cost. They were being handed out for free at my school 15 years ago. I'm sure you can find that some bulbs are new and expensive but that doesn't matter in the slightest.

It also doesn't matter that you got energy cheaper 2 years ago. Your situation changed, either change with it or build a time machine. If you go the time machine route, hurry up, because time machines probably use a lot of energy and that isn't going to get much cheaper any time soon.

I just checked out some of the prices of energy efficient bulbs, and the cheapest ones I could find were $7 each. Almost $6 each for lower wattage bulbs.

Oh, bullshit. I can buy a 4-pack of quality CFLs for $6 at Costco. Lumens equivalent to a 60W incandescent, but only drawing 13-14 actual watts.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2014, 07:30:56 PM »
Do you ever leave your cave?  Or even read MMM.  I'm starting to get the feeling were just getting trolled.......Biden?  Is that you?  Ah man, thats where the Joe in your name comes from.  All this time.  You dog you.

Hehehe. It's nice to have some comic relief amid this heated discussion!
Seriously, though, you are talking to a guy who makes his own laundry detergent and his own deodorant, so I'm no stranger to thrift! That's why I'm balking at spending $6 for a damn light bulb! I'm going to have to run some serious calculations before I replace my old incandescents.
Also, I shudder to think about breaking one of these $6 precious jewels, or having them crap out on me prematurely. The stakes just seem too high. I'll have to calculate not only the costs in the long term, but also the additional cost of having to replace duds that didn't provide their full value, which I'm sure will happen, as happens with all light bulbs.
Then there is the issue of them not lasting as long as they claim....

TomTX

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2014, 07:33:36 PM »
Utilities contract for natural gas and attempt to hedge costs.  I don't think anyone anticipated this cold of a winter, and Con Ed probably had to go to the current market to obtain enough fuel, or if they operate in an exchange, to buy the power.  Look at the poor people that heat directly with propane.  Prices are more than double what they were and supplies are short.

This is a good point that I should've mentioned.  Fuel prices are ALWAYS higher on the spot market.  I've seen natural gas prices spike 40-50 times higher during a cold snap when supplies are somehow constrained (by pipeline capacity or whatever).  And if a utility has to buy power from another utility during a demand spike because they don't have enough available capacity, they can sometimes expect to pay 10-15 times what it would cost them to generate that power themselves.  All of that gets counted as part of the fuel cost adjustment.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the OP's bills.  I'm pretty sure most states require detailed billing that shows the base rate, fuel costs, and any other adjustments as separate line items.

The winter has been unusually cold for much of the USA, causing more natural gas and propane to be burned up than usual. The northeast doesn't have enough pipeline capacity, so extra demand beyond local supplies causes a big spike in prices. BIG. There have been NG and propane shortages in the NE.

No shortages in Texas, though. Lots of pipeline, and they keep putting in more. Also, unlike those wasteful yahoos in Pennsylvania - we only allow 10 days of flaring NG, not a damn year!

dragoncar

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2014, 07:34:24 PM »
Do you ever leave your cave?  Or even read MMM.  I'm starting to get the feeling were just getting trolled.......Biden?  Is that you?  Ah man, thats where the Joe in your name comes from.  All this time.  You dog you.

Hehehe. It's nice to have some comic relief amid this heated discussion!
Seriously, though, you are talking to a guy who makes his own laundry detergent and his own deodorant, so I'm no stranger to thrift! That's why I'm balking at spending $6 for a damn light bulb! I'm going to have to run some serious calculations before I replace my old incandescents.
Also, I shudder to think about breaking one of these $6 precious jewels, or having them crap out on me prematurely. The stakes just seem too high. I'll have to calculate not only the costs in the long term, but also the additional cost of having to replace duds that didn't provide their full value, which I'm sure will happen, as happens with all light bulbs.
Then there is the issue of them not lasting as long as they claim....

See cheap vs frugal

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2014, 07:35:26 PM »
Energy-efficient bulbs aren't particularly new, nor are they a high startup cost. They were being handed out for free at my school 15 years ago. I'm sure you can find that some bulbs are new and expensive but that doesn't matter in the slightest.

It also doesn't matter that you got energy cheaper 2 years ago. Your situation changed, either change with it or build a time machine. If you go the time machine route, hurry up, because time machines probably use a lot of energy and that isn't going to get much cheaper any time soon.

I just checked out some of the prices of energy efficient bulbs, and the cheapest ones I could find were $7 each. Almost $6 each for lower wattage bulbs.

Oh, bullshit. I can buy a 4-pack of quality CFLs for $6 at Costco. Lumens equivalent to a 60W incandescent, but only drawing 13-14 actual watts.

I was probably looking at an LED bulb for that price. Forgive me, but I have definitely not kept up with these technologies, or their prices.

joer1212

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2014, 07:37:41 PM »
Utilities contract for natural gas and attempt to hedge costs.  I don't think anyone anticipated this cold of a winter, and Con Ed probably had to go to the current market to obtain enough fuel, or if they operate in an exchange, to buy the power.  Look at the poor people that heat directly with propane.  Prices are more than double what they were and supplies are short.

This is a good point that I should've mentioned.  Fuel prices are ALWAYS higher on the spot market.  I've seen natural gas prices spike 40-50 times higher during a cold snap when supplies are somehow constrained (by pipeline capacity or whatever).  And if a utility has to buy power from another utility during a demand spike because they don't have enough available capacity, they can sometimes expect to pay 10-15 times what it would cost them to generate that power themselves.  All of that gets counted as part of the fuel cost adjustment.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the OP's bills.  I'm pretty sure most states require detailed billing that shows the base rate, fuel costs, and any other adjustments as separate line items.

The winter has been unusually cold for much of the USA, causing more natural gas and propane to be burned up than usual. The northeast doesn't have enough pipeline capacity, so extra demand beyond local supplies causes a big spike in prices. BIG. There have been NG and propane shortages in the NE.

No shortages in Texas, though. Lots of pipeline, and they keep putting in more. Also, unlike those wasteful yahoos in Pennsylvania - we only allow 10 days of flaring NG, not a damn year!

This Winter has been colder than usual here, but my electric bill started to rise over 2 years ago.

TomTX

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2014, 07:49:44 PM »

I was probably looking at an LED bulb for that price. Forgive me, but I have definitely not kept up with these technologies, or their prices.

LED bulbs are the new trendy thing - but frankly, the marginal energy savings compared to CFL just isn't very compelling. And as far as I can tell, you can't get a good LED cheaply on a consistent basis. The best I've seen for a quality bulb is ~13 for the Cree* 60W equivalent (actual draw 9.5W) at Home Depot.  I've heard too many stories of problems with the cheaper LED bulbs.

CFLs (compact fluorescent) have been on the rise for at least 15 years now, and you an get quality ones for cheap. You need to look at "color temperature" since they can put out different types of light. Around 2700K is close to incandescent (warm, yellowish). You can also get bluer ones (4500k, 5500K etc) - but most people think they look harsh.

Going from an incandescent to CFL saves you ~46 watts for about $1.50 a bulb (at Costco.) Going from CFL to LED saves you an additional 5-6 watts for about $13 a bulb (unless you want to make guessing games with quality.) I have a couple of the LED for some very high-use lights (and that was mostly just to try out the Crees) otherwise almost everything is CFL

*Made in the USA. Cree was making LEDs for high-end (very expensive) tactical flashlights for many years. They are known for their quality, and reviews on their new LED bulbs have been good.

Cromacster

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2014, 08:04:47 PM »
Do you ever leave your cave?  Or even read MMM.  I'm starting to get the feeling were just getting trolled.......Biden?  Is that you?  Ah man, thats where the Joe in your name comes from.  All this time.  You dog you.

Hehehe. It's nice to have some comic relief amid this heated discussion!
Seriously, though, you are talking to a guy who makes his own laundry detergent and his own deodorant, so I'm no stranger to thrift! That's why I'm balking at spending $6 for a damn light bulb! I'm going to have to run some serious calculations before I replace my old incandescents.
Also, I shudder to think about breaking one of these $6 precious jewels, or having them crap out on me prematurely. The stakes just seem too high. I'll have to calculate not only the costs in the long term, but also the additional cost of having to replace duds that didn't provide their full value, which I'm sure will happen, as happens with all light bulbs.
Then there is the issue of them not lasting as long as they claim....

And if you are stuck on incandescent as some people are (though that doesn't sound like you)  The new halogen incandescent are more engergy efficient, though not as much so as cfl, led.  Adding dimmers in general will reduce your energy usage significantly, even if you choose to keep your incandescents.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 05:57:04 AM by Cromacster »

FrugalSpendthrift

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Re: Why has my electric bill skyrocketed?
« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2014, 09:04:31 PM »
Also, I shudder to think about breaking one of these $6 precious jewels, or having them crap out on me prematurely. The stakes just seem too high. I'll have to calculate not only the costs in the long term, but also the additional cost of having to replace duds that didn't provide their full value, which I'm sure will happen, as happens with all light bulbs.
They all come with a warranty, so you aren't exactly risking anything.  With your absurdly high cost / kwh, the payback will be pretty quick.