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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: waffle on August 13, 2015, 08:13:48 AM

Title: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 13, 2015, 08:13:48 AM
This is inspired by the conversations from the "What will replace trucks as the next dumb purchase" thread, but I thought it deserved its own.

I know that in 90%+ of cases a truck doesn't make financial sense to own. Its a convenience item that costs more money that its worth for most people. What I don't get though is why trucks get singled out so much. How many of us spent way more than we needed to on a house because we convinced ourselves that we needed the space when we really don't? How many of us paid thousands more than we needed to on education that didn't provide any substantially better career prospects than the school that cost half as much?

Maybe its because a truck is a depreciating asset, but it seems that 30k (more with other expenses) once every 10 years or so on a truck (while probably face punch worthy) is not that far off from spending an extra 100k on a house that is bigger or fancier than you really need.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: forummm on August 13, 2015, 08:17:03 AM
People bash expensive houses too. But I agree that it's done less than with trucks. Perhaps because MMM has had expensive houses, he hasn't written about the topic as much. You do usually get your money back with an expensive house, but you do have much higher carrying costs as well.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: slugline on August 13, 2015, 08:27:28 AM
Too much house when unneeded is considered facepunch-worthy too.

The only difference I see is that sometimes the desire to not overpay for housing conflicts with the desire to minimize transportation costs because employment centers with high-paying jobs also tend to be immediately surrounded by high-price residential real estate.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Cpa Cat on August 13, 2015, 08:37:11 AM
When I worked at an accounting firm, 80% of the vehicles were giant trucks and giant SUVs. The men all had the biggest baddest trucks you could buy. The women all had the biggest, baddest SUV's (the new minivan) you could buy, to keep their kids safe. Most commuted 30 mins- 1 hour. My favorites were the truck-SUV mixes - trucks that can seat as many people as an SUV, in comfort and style.

I think it gets bashed because it's just so VISIBLE.

Why did all these accountants need such enormous vehicles? Did they store their stacks of precious ten-key calculators in the back?

I once had someone try to justify it to me by telling me he came to work in a snow storm and used his massive manly truck to pull people out of ditches because no one else was at work. My only answer to this was, "Why were you at work?"
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Left on August 13, 2015, 08:47:12 AM
because the bashers can't see the point in buying something so expensive that they can't resell for more? :D

to me, I don't care. You can't "get" more out of having a pet/baby either but it doesn't keep people from buying pets or kids.

before someone bashes trucks, I want to see them bash having pets/babies as a lifestyle choice if they think having trucks are bad.

My dislike of trucks/suvs are that large vehicles more often than not also have "large" drivers which translates to lazy people who park near the "entrance" where other cars crowd around too. I park on the periphery so I don't get my car dinged... And that's as much "my" choice as it is the large truck driver's choice to park in the compact car spaces, and that's why I dislike trucks/suvs. Yes, I know small car drivers can ding my car, but they are smaller so less likely that someone can get out of the car without "squeezing" in. If they can open the door and get in/out without sucking in their stomach or hitting the other car, then the parking space is fine, if they can't then they need to move away from other cars.

edit: yes, I am stereotypying truck drivers to be fat... I'm in the midwest, so even the bicycle riders are "fat" too by majority rule (probably). But I see more in large vehicles simply because they can't get in and out of low to the ground, smaller cars. So while skinny guys can drive either cars/trucks, non-skinny guys tend to drive larger trucks. Probably a false statement, since I made it from my own bias but you asked a personal question so I can be as biased as I want to be

edit: and yes, I consider myself "fat" too and trying to work on it :D so I'm not hating on fat people in general, just an observation of why I dislike trucks more than cars, because I don't like having my doors dinged from people who cant get in and out of their cars and won't walk an extra 200 feet.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: marcela on August 13, 2015, 09:56:02 AM
The trucks are a very visible symbol of spending and have high operating costs when you factor in lower gas mileage, higher insurance rates and maintenance. Also most people buy a house planning on having it for longer than they would a truck and it is harder to sell. Most people aren't upgrading their house every 4-5 years.

The other big reason I'm guessing has to do with the fact that I imagine many people on the forum find themselves in the position of having those over-priced big homes and don't want to draw attention to the fact :) I admit we live in an apartment that is much bigger than we need and could easily find a cheaper place that only had 1 bedroom/ a smaller kitchen, no back porch. However when we weighed the options, having a larger nicer space and the joy it would bring us in being able to entertain (and get away from each other at times) was worth it. I think most people on here would agree and that why we pick on trucks.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 13, 2015, 09:57:51 AM
I'm not sure you can say 80% of truck purchases have no point... how can you possibly know a percentage?... but I think they get bashed on here because you have a lot of cyclists on here and people focused on cheaper smaller vehicles.  They probably get bashed outside of here because they are very visible... But just because there aren't scratches and mud all over them doesn't mean the driver didn't have a reason to get one.  Hauling a boat can be tough with a lighter vehicle, and you don't go off road or get scratched up doing that.  I know a few truck owners who have been in wrecks and feel safer with more weight in a vehicle. 

There are still a lot of people, even on here, who don't DIY anything, so they don't see the need for a truck.  Even with less gas mileage and a payment, if you're using your truck to do things, you can very easily pay less in life just thanks to the cheaper costs of those DIY projects.  Insurance on his trucks combined is way less than on my 2014 Honda Accord.

I don't drive a truck, but my husband does and we use that truck... in fact, he has two.  They are both cheaper in the cost per mile than a new prius, believe it or not.  One is a 1988 and the other is a 2000.  We do live in an area that has "share the road" signs, so cyclists probably hate us, but THEY have to share the road, too.  Sad we don't have enough bike lanes, but roads are roads.

Also... if people are hating on trucks because of the cost... take a look at the costs of the new cars, too, wow.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 13, 2015, 10:02:49 AM
People bash expensive houses too. But I agree that it's done less than with trucks. Perhaps because MMM has had expensive houses, he hasn't written about the topic as much. You do usually get your money back with an expensive house, but you do have much higher carrying costs as well.
By my calculations a 175k vs a 275k house at 3.5% mortgage would cost you 110k more over the course of 10 years in interest and lost investment earnings assuming you earn 6% on your investments.
Over the course of a decade a 30-40k truck vs a 10-15k car will certainly cost more money, but I don't think its as bad as people make it out to be. Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 13, 2015, 10:09:30 AM
People bash expensive houses too. But I agree that it's done less than with trucks. Perhaps because MMM has had expensive houses, he hasn't written about the topic as much. You do usually get your money back with an expensive house, but you do have much higher carrying costs as well.
By my calculations a 175k vs a 275k house at 3.5% mortgage would cost you 110k more over the course of 10 years in interest and lost investment earnings assuming you earn 6% on your investments.
Over the course of a decade a 30-40k truck vs a 10-15k car will certainly cost more money, but I don't think its as bad as people make it out to be. Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

you also spend how many hours of your life in your truck vs how many hours in your house.  exponential value difference there as well. 

spending a lot on cars has very few justifications.   unless you're living in it ... then props to you on the awesome truck camper conversion. 

spending a lot on a house has many more justifications. 

unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price. 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 13, 2015, 10:13:11 AM
I used to have a Ram 1500 diesel truck. I often wish I still had it, but the base cost (payments) was too much to justify at the time. It could easily hit 30 mpg on the highway, had 4 wheel drive, could carry 6 people, the insurance cost was actually the same as the Rav4 I replaced it with, and it was great for hauling stuff. If I had been more financially stable before buying it (had student loans paid off + ample savings) then I would probably still have it. I hope to get another one someday.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Kaspian on August 13, 2015, 10:16:35 AM
I know that in 90%+ of cases a truck doesn't make financial sense to own. Its a convenience item that costs more money that its worth for most people.

^^ That is exactly why they get bashed so much.  That and they're 3-ton beasts which cost $30K, usually carry just one person, and shoot CO2 all over the place.  Hey, if "90%+ of cases" are people driving road-hogging, giant unnecessary pollution machines around, we should be able to bash them.  ...Making fun isn't what's destroying the planet.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Sam E on August 13, 2015, 10:46:51 AM
Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: bobechs on August 13, 2015, 10:52:37 AM

before someone bashes trucks, I want to see them bash having pets/babies as a lifestyle choice if they think having trucks are bad.


Be careful what you wish for:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/owning-pets-are-anti-mustachian/
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 13, 2015, 11:01:00 AM
Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...

Fuel mileage isn't everything, see my above post.  Not all trucks are created equal, as well.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Kaspian on August 13, 2015, 11:18:33 AM
Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...

Fuel mileage isn't everything, see my above post.  Not all trucks are created equal, as well.


"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: dramaman on August 13, 2015, 11:42:06 AM
Part of it is likely because trucks were originally designed for a business purpose - hauling things - and instead has now become a status symbol in which way too many people simply use them as a fancy commuting vehicle, providing no benefit whatsoever over a cheaper, more fuel efficient, practice car. Its the pure stupidity of it.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 13, 2015, 11:47:06 AM
truck to pet comparison yeah that makes sense

truck to baby comparison is pretty dumb.  seeing as i've never seen a truck carry on the existance of human life -  But i guess what you do with your truck in your garage is your business.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 13, 2015, 11:51:44 AM
Because most people driving a truck are towing nothing, hauling nothing, and pissing a declining resource out the back in order to do so.

I'm sure it's all fuel cost related - people in the UK only have a truck if they need one because the cost of fuel is so much higher than the US and Canada. So expensive that nearly all commercial vehicles are diesel. If fuel was 40p/litre I'm sure people would buy bigger vehicles.

You're basically driving a brick. If you're a farmer, go for it. There's nothing wrong with any individual going, oh, I love this big V8, it puts a smile on my face. The problem is when everyone does it, we're all fucked (no, really - greenwashing aside - we are driving from A-B and back B-A every day - hauling one person plus hundreds of kilograms of metal - 5 days a week - even doing this in a Prius is, climate wise, stupid).

I WANT AN SUV IT MAKES ME FEEL SAFE yeah but because everyone has one it cancels out (plus the roll over risk, plus people NOT driving an SUV are at more danger).

With a McMansion in reasonable climates - who cares. Somewhere you need to heat from -30? Madness - natural gas going up - but again, a 1000 sq ft house vs 1500 isn't going to save the world, we need ecohousing that basically heats itself.

I guess the guy driving the truck or living in the McMansion is just an easy deflection of our own guilt - anger at myself AND our race for being so very very stupid. We are entirely wrongheaded - we value "hard work" but it's complete bullshit - you clean toilets, on your hands and knees, and get paid terrible; you write a couple of programs or poke at networks or whatever and you get paid 3-4-5 x as much. If you're mustachian smart you can give up work in 10 years or less.

Life is not fair, it is so so so unfair it hurts BUT of course you get growth through hardship. But we're at this enlightened age where people have time to think about this stuff. People like me, who have it really easy, questioning what it's all about.

90% of privately owned trucks could be replaced with Priuses. Probably 40+% of commercial trucks would be better off being a van. We should nearly all live within 5 minutes of our office!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Giro on August 13, 2015, 11:54:34 AM
If we are going to bring the environment and carbon emissions into the discussion, then jet planes need to be brought up.  We bag on trucks but justify vacations.  makes no sense to me.
There's nothing wrong with driving a truck if that's what you want.  We have a truck and a sports car that gets about 14mpg.  But, I'm not a huge fan of riding in airplanes so I think I'm no worse on the environment than someone who flies several times a year.


Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: tvan on August 13, 2015, 12:22:46 PM

I know that in 90%+ of cases a truck doesn't make financial sense to own. Its a convenience item that costs more money that its worth for most people.

^^ That is exactly why they get bashed so much.  That and they're 3-ton beasts which cost $30K, usually carry just one person, and shoot CO2 all over the place.  Hey, if "90%+ of cases" are people driving road-hogging, giant unnecessary pollution machines around, we should be able to bash them.  ...Making fun isn't what's destroying the planet.

What does weight and size have a thing to do with personal finance?

If the Ford F-150 was cheaper and got 50 mpg everyone on this forum would be driving them.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: tvan on August 13, 2015, 12:24:48 PM
And if pollution is your argument then don't be so sure electric is the bees knees.

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-finds-driving-electric-car-on-east-coast-likely-leads-to-more-pollution-than-gas-guzzling-cars-2015-7
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 13, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
True, electric is very dependent on which state you're in and how your state gets its power.  My state has so many rivers, it uses all hydroelectric power.  But if environment is all people are concerned about, the Prius is far from the greenest vehicle, just sayin.  The 70s Scout is the greenest vehicle, or one of those 70s suburban things, its surprising once you stop looking at a small part of the bigger picture... its the entire life of a vehicle, how long parts last, cost of making and discarding all those parts, to include batteries, and fuel mileage is only part of the cost of owning a vehicle.

If you just need something to hate, and a jerk was driving the truck, or whatever vehicle, that you felt insulted you on the road... well, haters gonna hate, but you won't win a 'trucks suck' argument with a DIYer.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: sixup on August 13, 2015, 12:39:43 PM
Big trucks are simply a status symbol screaming for attention.

There is no other reason to have a Ford F-150 raptor or god-forbid any lifted truck/SUV*.


* lifted truck: Maybe if you're a farmer or something. Even then it would ideally be smaller in size to have less chance of getting stuck. I know many of the massive trucks that off-road here end up needing to be rescued by the smaller non-monster trucks in muddy situations.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 13, 2015, 12:50:02 PM

I know that in 90%+ of cases a truck doesn't make financial sense to own. Its a convenience item that costs more money that its worth for most people.

^^ That is exactly why they get bashed so much.  That and they're 3-ton beasts which cost $30K, usually carry just one person, and shoot CO2 all over the place.  Hey, if "90%+ of cases" are people driving road-hogging, giant unnecessary pollution machines around, we should be able to bash them.  ...Making fun isn't what's destroying the planet.

What does weight and size have a thing to do with personal finance?

If the Ford F-150 was cheaper and got 50 mpg everyone on this forum would be driving them.
The ram 1500 I wrote about earlier got better mileage than the rav4 I have now and was over twice the weight. If technology is applied equally to cars and trucks then smaller cars should always be more efficient, but that doesn't mean trucks will always be the gas guzzlers of the past.

I was not joking about easily getting over 30mpg.
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/09/hypermiling-ram-1500-ecodiesel-38-mpg/
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Jacob F on August 13, 2015, 01:02:41 PM
There are still a lot of people, even on here, who don't DIY anything, so they don't see the need for a truck.  Even with less gas mileage and a payment, if you're using your truck to do things, you can very easily pay less in life just thanks to the cheaper costs of those DIY projects.  Insurance on his trucks combined is way less than on my 2014 Honda Accord.

I don't drive a truck, but my husband does and we use that truck... in fact, he has two.  They are both cheaper in the cost per mile than a new prius, believe it or not.  One is a 1988 and the other is a 2000.  We do live in an area that has "share the road" signs, so cyclists probably hate us, but THEY have to share the road, too.  Sad we don't have enough bike lanes, but roads are roads.

Also... if people are hating on trucks because of the cost... take a look at the costs of the new cars, too, wow.
Comparing apples to apples will help here...

a) Insurance on two trucks is less than on your new 2014 honda accord? That's probably because of collision coverage, which is an electable option. Of course, collision coverage costs are cheap on old vehicles because they don't have a high residual value. If you want to be honest, you need to compare his insurance costs for trucks to two equally old cars (or Minivans) at the same mileage. Or compare your Honda to an all new Ford F-150. I bet you will have to revise your statement!

b) Roads are roads and are thus made for all, not only your trucks. You are not the king of the road just because you can kill everyone in the blink of an eye. On the road, just as in real life, you need to take precaution and express carefulness.

c)The costs of new cars compared to new trucks are still in favor of cars. Unless you buy an aston martin.

On a sidenote, I'd love to put penalty tax on trucks (and partly SUVs) for several things:
- Impact on other people on the road (a.k.a. negative external effects): Due to the size and weight of the vehicles, other people are in more danger just because people want to drive these silly vehicles
- Bigger vehicles clog up public parking and roads
- Through open truckbeds, a lot of load / garbage ends on or besides highways because people don't even care to secure their load properly. This creates environmental pollution.
- increase average IQ by taxing stupidity (sorry couldn't resist) :D MOD NOTE: joking or not, you just insulted forum members who do choose to own a truck. Please keep in mind our forum rules. Thanks.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Stachetastic on August 13, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
I will step up and admit to owning a large truck. And it is perhaps even more facepunch-worthy that it is our third vehicle. But, it's a 2001 chevy that was purchased for 3k cash and is used frequently for our rentals, hauling the $900 pop up camper/firewood/recycling/craigslist finds, etc. Our daily drivers are a Matrix and a Corolla, both paid for. Yes the truck burns emissions and gets really shitty gas mileage. It is not the BEST way to optimize our budget, but it fits our needs. We justify it by cutting back in so many other areas--no cable, living in a smallish house in a very LCOL area, rarely eating out, exclusively shopping at thrift stores. The truck is actually beat to hell, so far from a status symbol for us. But it is a work truck, and it fills a need for our household, so it stays.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 13, 2015, 01:10:43 PM
There are still a lot of people, even on here, who don't DIY anything, so they don't see the need for a truck.  Even with less gas mileage and a payment, if you're using your truck to do things, you can very easily pay less in life just thanks to the cheaper costs of those DIY projects.  Insurance on his trucks combined is way less than on my 2014 Honda Accord.

I don't drive a truck, but my husband does and we use that truck... in fact, he has two.  They are both cheaper in the cost per mile than a new prius, believe it or not.  One is a 1988 and the other is a 2000.  We do live in an area that has "share the road" signs, so cyclists probably hate us, but THEY have to share the road, too.  Sad we don't have enough bike lanes, but roads are roads.

Also... if people are hating on trucks because of the cost... take a look at the costs of the new cars, too, wow.
Comparing apples to apples will help here...

a) Insurance on two trucks is less than on your new 2014 honda accord? That's probably because of collision coverage, which is an electable option. Of course, collision coverage costs are cheap on old vehicles because they don't have a high residual value. If you want to be honest, you need to compare his insurance costs for trucks to two equally old cars (or Minivans) at the same mileage. Or compare your Honda to an all new Ford F-150. I bet you will have to revise your statement!

b) Roads are roads and are thus made for all, not only your trucks. You are not the king of the road just because you can kill everyone in the blink of an eye. On the road, just as in real life, you need to take precaution and express carefulness.

c)The costs of new cars compared to new trucks are still in favor of cars. Unless you buy an aston martin.

On a sidenote, I'd love to put penalty tax on trucks (and partly SUVs) for several things:
- Impact on other people on the road (a.k.a. negative external effects): Due to the size and weight of the vehicles, other people are in more danger just because people want to drive these silly vehicles
- Bigger vehicles clog up public parking and roads
- Through open truckbeds, a lot of load / garbage ends on or besides highways because people don't even care to secure their load properly. This creates environmental pollution.
- increase average IQ by taxing stupidity (sorry couldn't resist) :D

LOL  Jacob, roads are roads meaning we are ALL sharing these roads.  I'm noticing the people who dislike trucks aren't really being reasonable towards the posts here about what truck ownership is really like.  We're trying to explain that it isn't the way you're assuming.  Like I said, if you want to hate them, have at it, but you aren't going to win an argument with a DIYer truck owner, sorry.  You finish it with talking about stupidity... are you really trying to convince us, or make the animosity worse?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: cborders on August 13, 2015, 01:13:28 PM

What does weight and size have a thing to do with personal finance?


Bigger, heavier vehicles cost more to own and maintain. Larger vehicles can tow larger accessories which increases behavioral risks such as buying boats, RVs, etc.

Quote
If the Ford F-150 was cheaper and got 50 mpg everyone on this forum would be driving them.

Typically fuel costs account for <10% of the total cost of vehicle ownership, so it's doubtful that many here would be driving F150's if fuel economy improved.
Title: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: tvan on August 13, 2015, 01:18:46 PM

What does weight and size have a thing to do with personal finance?


Bigger, heavier vehicles cost more to own and maintain. Larger vehicles can tow larger accessories which increases behavioral risks such as buying boats, RVs, etc.

Quote
If the Ford F-150 was cheaper and got 50 mpg everyone on this forum would be driving them.

Typically fuel costs account for <10% of the total cost of vehicle ownership, so it's doubtful that many here would be driving F150's if fuel economy improved.

You didn't read the keywords in my post.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: tvan on August 13, 2015, 01:20:05 PM
Bigger cars are also safer.

You also don't have any clue whether that person on the road is already RE.  And if they are, and you are not, it goes without saying...
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: bacchi on August 13, 2015, 01:23:50 PM
roads are roads meaning we are ALL sharing these roads.

True but trucks require more sharing from others. Heavier vehicles do more wear and tear on a road than, say, a bicycle or Yaris. The additional gas tax that truck drivers pay for their less efficient motors doesn't cover that, either.

Quote
but you aren't going to win an argument with a DIYer truck owner

If you're truly a heavy user of your truck then you probably have a legitimate need for it. Most people don't, however.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/30/how-americas-truck-the-ford-f-150-became-a-plaything-for-the-rich/

Quote from: WaPo
So far this year, about 50 percent of sales of the F-150 have been its high-end editions, including the Lariat, Platinum and King Ranch editions.

Tell me that's not for status.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 13, 2015, 01:24:13 PM

I know that in 90%+ of cases a truck doesn't make financial sense to own. Its a convenience item that costs more money that its worth for most people.

^^ That is exactly why they get bashed so much.  That and they're 3-ton beasts which cost $30K, usually carry just one person, and shoot CO2 all over the place.  Hey, if "90%+ of cases" are people driving road-hogging, giant unnecessary pollution machines around, we should be able to bash them.  ...Making fun isn't what's destroying the planet.

What does weight and size have a thing to do with personal finance?

If the Ford F-150 was cheaper and got 50 mpg everyone on this forum would be driving them.

weight and size have a direct affect on your health as a human being ... the more overweight and larger you are the more likely you are to get diseases which cost money.. money is personal finance.

so to sum it up

weight = health costs = money = personal finance.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: shotgunwilly on August 13, 2015, 01:53:13 PM
truck to pet comparison yeah that makes sense

truck to baby comparison is pretty dumb.  seeing as i've never seen a truck carry on the existance of human life -  But i guess what you do with your truck in your garage is your business.

Why? Couldn't it be argued that adding a human life to this world is possibly as damaging to earth as driving a truck? (If you can't possibly imagine why, please... think a little deeper.)  I agree with the poster that said it's a lifestyle choice.  Why do people drive trucks?  Either because they make a mistake, or they love them and want to.  Why do people have kids?  Either because they make a mistake, or they love them and want to.  And don't fucking tell me you have kids so they can someday save the world or to "carry on the existence of human life." 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 13, 2015, 02:05:16 PM
truck to pet comparison yeah that makes sense

truck to baby comparison is pretty dumb.  seeing as i've never seen a truck carry on the existance of human life -  But i guess what you do with your truck in your garage is your business.

Why? Couldn't it be argued that adding a human life to this world is possibly as damaging to earth as driving a truck? (If you can't possibly imagine why, please... think a little deeper.)  I agree with the poster that said it's a lifestyle choice.  Why do people drive trucks?  Either because they make a mistake, or they love them and want to.  Why do people have kids?  Either because they make a mistake, or they love them and want to.  And don't fucking tell me you have kids so they can someday save the world or to "carry on the existence of human life."

fact

all humans decide to copulate with trucks = 0 humans at somepoint
humans decide to copulate with eachother = humans still survive

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: shotgunwilly on August 13, 2015, 02:08:58 PM
truck to pet comparison yeah that makes sense

truck to baby comparison is pretty dumb.  seeing as i've never seen a truck carry on the existance of human life -  But i guess what you do with your truck in your garage is your business.

Why? Couldn't it be argued that adding a human life to this world is possibly as damaging to earth as driving a truck? (If you can't possibly imagine why, please... think a little deeper.)  I agree with the poster that said it's a lifestyle choice.  Why do people drive trucks?  Either because they make a mistake, or they love them and want to.  Why do people have kids?  Either because they make a mistake, or they love them and want to.  And don't fucking tell me you have kids so they can someday save the world or to "carry on the existence of human life."

fact

all humans decide to copulate with trucks = 0 humans at somepoint
humans decide to copulate with eachother = humans still survive

Great counter. You win. :|
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Cpa Cat on August 13, 2015, 02:58:51 PM
to me, I don't care. You can't "get" more out of having a pet/baby either but it doesn't keep people from buying pets or kids.

before someone bashes trucks, I want to see them bash having pets/babies as a lifestyle choice if they think having trucks are bad.

But people don't just own a sensible truck to fulfill a function. It's always the biggest, most useless trucks that are the best sellers. You know, the ones that have sacrificed the length of the bed so that they can comfortably sit 8 people. The ones that have the biggest tires and hydraulics. My favorites are the (usually old) men who drive those pristine trucks that have extra wheels in the back to support all of the stuff that they never haul in their bed.

It's like someone telling you that they really love cats... and then when you go to their house, they have 16 cats and all of their decor is cat related. Then they tell you that their cats are all pregnant because they can't afford to spay them.

Or people who tell you that they love kids... and then when you go to their house, they have 16 kids and rely on a reality TV show to feed them.

The difference is that usually, when people say they love cats or kids, they only have a couple of cats or kids and nothing is excessive. Excess is the exception.

For trucks, excess (in the form of the biggest, most useless trucks imaginable) is the norm. Using a truck for function  is the exception. In the end, most trucks are just another iPhone with the most expensive data plan rolling down the road.

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: jeromedawg on August 13, 2015, 03:12:22 PM
Trucks are awesome! But only when my friends [who have one] let me borrow them to transport furniture, appliances, and other large items...! Or better yet, when my friends with trucks offer to help me get all that stuff!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 13, 2015, 03:43:31 PM
to me, I don't care. You can't "get" more out of having a pet/baby either but it doesn't keep people from buying pets or kids.

before someone bashes trucks, I want to see them bash having pets/babies as a lifestyle choice if they think having trucks are bad.

My favorites are the (usually old) men who drive those pristine trucks that have extra wheels in the back to support all of the stuff that they never haul in their bed.


I've never met anyone who buys a dually that wont actually use it for heavy duty uses. They probably bought it to haul a 5th wheel trailer for traveling or a gooseneck stock trailer if they are ranchers. Its just not that fun to drive a dually around like a normal truck so most people aren't going to buy them for commuters or pleasure vehicles...

Edit: Also they tend to stay pristine because they are probably just doing a lot of highway driving and not driving around town. People don't take their dually mudding. They are used more like a semi truck. Long/heavy hauls, so these I would probably question a persons decision to buy one of these the least.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Fuman on August 13, 2015, 03:54:57 PM
I've got a 2014 RAM1500 with a shell.  I'm also RE.

I've used it a TON this summer.  I've been to or through 21 states since March and I've put 16,000 trouble free miles on it during that time.  I haul the bike, the dog and the camping gear.  Sleeping for two in the back on a memory foam mattress is very comfy.  The truck is very safe and the ride is the most comfortable of any vehicle I've ever owned - even after driving 12 hrs per day. 

Soon it will be towing my refurbished travel-trailer and visiting all the national parks in the U.S.  I love the fucking thing!

If you don't like trucks then don't buy one.  If you are comfortable hauling your bicycles, dog, camping gear and also sleeping in your Prius, then knock yourself out.  I won't judge you for that.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 13, 2015, 04:09:01 PM
I've got a 2014 RAM1500 with a shell.  I'm also RE.

I've used it a TON this summer.  I've been to or through 21 states since March and I've put 16,000 trouble free miles on it during that time.  I haul the bike, the dog and the camping gear.  Sleeping for two in the back on a memory foam mattress is very comfy.  The truck is very safe and the ride is the most comfortable of any vehicle I've ever owned - even after driving 12 hrs per day. 

Soon it will be towing my refurbished travel-trailer and visiting all the national parks in the U.S.  I love the fucking thing!

If you don't like trucks then don't buy one.  If you are comfortable hauling your bicycles, dog, camping gear and also sleeping in your Prius, then knock yourself out.  I won't judge you for that.

MOST trucks are not used like this, though.

The post where someone had a truck as a third vehicle - makes perfect sense!

Sleeping in the back - ok, cool, not the most efficient (minivan might be better, but whatever).

Commuting with nothing in the bed? IT'S STUPID.

Also, flying is similarly bad. I do a transatlantic flight pretty much every year and I feel shitty about it because it basically negates all the commuting I don't do.

People getting defensive - I get it, nobody likes criticism. I'm a hypocrite - used to be vegetarian, organic, train and bike to work... I buy new and secondhand gadgets, I now buy cheap food because organic is so expensive in Canada, I own a Crown Vic which I love (though it does less than 5k km a year).

But what can you do. You can accept you're a really lucky fucker vs every metric, and try not to wreck the planet. Frugality and environmentalism go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Fuman on August 13, 2015, 04:42:24 PM
I've got a 2014 RAM1500 with a shell.  I'm also RE.

But what can you do. You can accept you're a really lucky fucker vs every metric, and try not to wreck the planet. Frugality and environmentalism go hand in hand.

I failed to mention - my last employer gave me (rather, I NEGOTIATED) a $1,000.00/month vehicle lease allowance.  However, their stipulation was that due to remote location, I HAD to get a 4WD truck.  I think they thought I'd get a normal lease but I then negotiated the HIGHEST LEASE PAYMENT that I possibly could from the dealer; $973.68/month!  HAHAHA.  I did that gig for almost two years, submitted for my reimbursement every month and then bought-out the lease right before I quit.  I got a 1/2 price truck!  Without that perk I never would have bought this thing.  It was an awesome mustachian way to make a very unmustachian purchase - but I LOVE that truck!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: SwordGuy on August 13, 2015, 05:16:34 PM
Ok, Do-It-Yourselfer (DIY) truck owners, time to argue...

In the last year, my wife and I have renovated two houses. 

Would owning a truck be more convenient than our car for this purpose?  Of course.  Duh.

But owning my own private plane and airport, with my own staff of 24-7 aircrew so I can take a long-distance vacation without standing in line at the public airport would be more convenient, too.   It would also be ludicrously expensive for the value it provided me.

So, let's explore the following questions:

(1) Do I need a truck to renovate the houses, given that I need lots of sheet rock, plywood, 2x4s, 2x6s, 4x4s, etc.?

No, I do not.   If I have a really big order of materials, I can have Lowe's deliver it for about $80.
I might need that once per house, or maybe twice per house if there's a lot of work.  I'll wager that, with major repairs on two different houses this last year, I'm doing way more DIY work than most folks.

That's $160 to $320 for deliveries.   A roof rack (1 time cost) is less than $200.  That's less than a single monthly truck payment. 

(2) What is the relative cost difference between that and my sedan with a roof-rack?

I can buy a new Ford sedan for less than $15,000.   The typical truck in the parking lot at work is in the $40,000 to $60,000 price range.   That's 3 to 4 times as expensive.   A stripped down Ford truck is $25,000, which is $10,000 more than the sedan.

So, if I buy 30+ houses and fix them up I'll break even on the cash price of both vehicles.   Oh, yeah.  Cash price.  But most people finance so maybe that's more like 40+ houses...

I'm ignoring the extra insurance costs, and the extra gas costs too.   

Sorry, as a very active DIYer, buying a new truck instead of a new sedan makes zero sense.

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 13, 2015, 05:21:50 PM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Cpa Cat on August 13, 2015, 05:23:53 PM
to me, I don't care. You can't "get" more out of having a pet/baby either but it doesn't keep people from buying pets or kids.

before someone bashes trucks, I want to see them bash having pets/babies as a lifestyle choice if they think having trucks are bad.

My favorites are the (usually old) men who drive those pristine trucks that have extra wheels in the back to support all of the stuff that they never haul in their bed.


I've never met anyone who buys a dually that wont actually use it for heavy duty uses. They probably bought it to haul a 5th wheel trailer for traveling or a gooseneck stock trailer if they are ranchers. Its just not that fun to drive a dually around like a normal truck so most people aren't going to buy them for commuters or pleasure vehicles...

Edit: Also they tend to stay pristine because they are probably just doing a lot of highway driving and not driving around town. People don't take their dually mudding. They are used more like a semi truck. Long/heavy hauls, so these I would probably question a persons decision to buy one of these the least.

I admit, I've never heard the term "dually.' And I don't follow duallies home and spy on them, so maybe these dudes do use them for something.

Mostly I see them at Big Biscuit (a breakfast joint), though. Or the grocery store. Or driving on the highway with nothing attached to them.

I have honestly actually never seen a "dually" doing anything other than driving around with no load or sitting parking lots (also with no load).

But I live in Kansas - where trucks are King. I assume that they buy these things because they want to be a little bit different from all the other trucks. Or because they buy a lot of groceries and eat a ton of biscuits. I could go either way on that.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 13, 2015, 05:25:25 PM
I can buy a new Ford sedan for less than $15,000.   The typical truck in the parking lot at work is in the $40,000 to $60,000 price range.   That's 3 to 4 times as expensive.   A stripped down Ford truck is $25,000, which is $10,000 more than the sedan.

So, if I buy 30+ houses and fix them up I'll break even on the cash price of both vehicles.   Oh, yeah.  Cash price.  But most people finance so maybe that's more like 40+ houses...

I'm ignoring the extra insurance costs, and the extra gas costs too.   

Sorry, as a very active DIYer, buying a new truck instead of a new sedan makes zero sense.

Nice cherry picking. Why don't you compare a $15,000 base model truck to a $60,000 car?

The people who buy a $60k truck would buy a $60k car if not a truck. The people who would buy a $15k sedan would buy a $15k truck, not a $60k truck.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: TheBuddha on August 13, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
To me it's nothing to do with finances or environmental concerns.

People with big loud trucks are often aggressive, inconsiderate drivers. The trucks symbolize everything annoying about immature, testosterone-fueled men.  I see them all the time, I'm a truck driver (18-wheeler). They're some of the worst drivers out there.

Of course there are legitimate uses for trucks. And of course all pickup truck drivers are not assholes. But enough of them are to create a stereotype that sticks.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: MoonShadow on August 13, 2015, 06:12:20 PM
Mostly because it's a pretty common screwup.  A RV, ATV or basicly anything that can float on water and has an engine would also qualify; but none of those are as widely understood as the example of the shiny pickup truck that actually hauls something about twice a year.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 13, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: fb132 on August 13, 2015, 07:27:05 PM
This is inspired by the conversations from the "What will replace trucks as the next dumb purchase" thread, but I thought it deserved its own.

I know that in 90%+ of cases a truck doesn't make financial sense to own. Its a convenience item that costs more money that its worth for most people. What I don't get though is why trucks get singled out so much. How many of us spent way more than we needed to on a house because we convinced ourselves that we needed the space when we really don't? How many of us paid thousands more than we needed to on education that didn't provide any substantially better career prospects than the school that cost half as much?

Maybe its because a truck is a depreciating asset, but it seems that 30k (more with other expenses) once every 10 years or so on a truck (while probably face punch worthy) is not that far off from spending an extra 100k on a house that is bigger or fancier than you really need.
Because it's fun :D
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 13, 2015, 08:18:59 PM
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.
Perhaps people wouldn't have to start a thread defending truck use if it wasn't for so many judgmental people making a lot of incorrect assumptions.

I pointed out in another thread that someone who drives low miles every year only has to use a truck a few times a year to get value from it. I used to drive a gas sucking Dodge Dakota but only spent $800 a year on fuel. Therefore, I only had to use it as a "truck" once or twice a month to make it worth owning, because the value of having the truck far exceeded the extra fuel costs. The rest of the time, it was empty and used as my daily commuter, and I would have been incorrectly judged by the majority of people here as wasteful and deserving of a facepunch.

My only other options were to own 2 vehicles, or to rent at a greater expense than the cost of simply owning a truck in the first place. Neither one of those options makes any sense at all.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: SwordGuy on August 13, 2015, 08:52:40 PM

Nice cherry picking. Why don't you compare a $15,000 base model truck to a $60,000 car?

The people who buy a $60k truck would buy a $60k car if not a truck. The people who would buy a $15k sedan would buy a $15k truck, not a $60k truck.

I went to a local Ford dealer's website and the lowest priced new Ford truck they had for sale was $25,000.  Most were over $30K and lots were in the $40K+ price range.   They had a new sedan for $15,000.   

No cherry picking involved.   There might even have been cheaper sedans on that site, I quit when I looked up the first sedan model and found that price.

Incidentally, that $25K was an F-150.  I don't see many of those around town, I see far more of the expensive models.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: BCBiker on August 13, 2015, 09:02:16 PM
I love that my thread inspired this Spinoff thread. Let's call this thread Fraser and mine Cheers! :)

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-will-replace-trucks-as-the-next-dumb-purchase/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-will-replace-trucks-as-the-next-dumb-purchase/)

Anyway, to answer OP's question I will make a list.

1. It is a total consumer sucka product. If you watch television (which I rarely do), you will see approximately 10 commercials per hour with trucks being driven off road and a very masculine voice discussing the payload or other useless features that doesn't truly matter to the average user. Why do they want to sell these POS to us? Because they have huge margins (the only reason GM did not completely implode 7 years ago).  If you bought a new or even remotely new truck you were/are a consumer sucka.

2. As an everyday bicycle commuter, interacting with dozens of trucks per day, truck drivers are generally obnoxious drivers with an obvious personality differences from car drivers. As another poster suggested, often young immature douche bags.

3. As you said 90% of cases don't make financial sense. What makes it worse though is that 90% of people who think it makes financial sense, it actually doesn't.  People (including many on this thread) dramatically underestimate the cost of truck ownership versus a practical vehicle and dramatically overestimate the cost of renting the services that the truck allegedly is needed for. The comments about DIY is completely baseless.  I am building a 100 ft long, 4 ft high retaining wall. Cost to deliver 4 tons of stone: $80. Cost of owning a truck year round for this one job... $7000 plus. And that doesn't even consider it would take 4-5 trips to haul this stone which would probably cost $40-60 by itself just for fuel.

4. Depreciating asset with zero ROI for 99% of users. Construction company owners and farmers are the exception, not the rule.

5. Environmental disasters: no one is perfect in our society on this issue of course but what a blatant example of wastefulness. If you are commuting in a 12mpg truck 28 miles per day as opposed to a 50+ mpg car (or an infinite mpg bike ride like me), you are being wasteful.  There is no way to argue this.

6. I think it is sad. Many people are suckered into owning these horrible machine. They are often young, impressionable, and with no resources to spare. I base this on my observation of many of these trucks in very poor neighborhoods (see the thread mentioned above).

7. There are so many smarter alternatives. By switching from a truck to an economical car, one can cut years (even decades) off of their FIRE date with exactly zero life-style implications. Its like switching from AT&T to Airvoice on a 10-20X scale. All you have to do is realize that all of your excuses for owning this truck are on unfounded premises.  Even if you have a boat or ATV that you use for recreation (I kind of understand this), you can often rent these for no more than $200-300 per day whereas that truck is costing you more unless you do these activities for 1 month plus per year. Another option is find a friend with a boat/truck, give him $500 for a week use. He will think you are crazy. You should no he is the crazy one for actually owning that crap.

There are probably more, but I think this is a good short list.

Truck primarily for personal use = anti-Mustachian
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: 2Cent on August 14, 2015, 02:07:17 AM
When people say things like: "In an accident, the truck wins" or "I love being able to see over the other cars. It's so much safer" I always think, do you realize your truck is having the exact opposite effect. Especially if it has darkened windows, you block everyone's view and your 3 tons are a safety hazard as others will lose in a crash.

I even hear some lady say she prefers to drive 500 meters to get her groceries as she doesn't like to walk through the pollution.

Besides that they are occupying more space in parking and on the road. The main reason to buy one is to feel bigger/richer. So it will make everyone else feel like they need to get the same size truck to be normal.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: alsoknownasDean on August 14, 2015, 02:40:08 AM
A truck can be Mustachian (ie: if it's an older smaller one used for a side hustle to generate income), or very much anti-Mustachian (a $60,000 luxo monster that's used to commute to an office job).

If someone spends $60,000 of the bank's money on something which depreciates rapidly, and where its full utility is used maybe 1% of the time, then of course it's deserving of a facepunch. That shit delays financial independence by years and years.

Nothing against trucks (or utes as they're called here), my dad had one for his business for a few years, and I actually quite liked the rugged simplicity of the thing. Vinyl seats and interior, four cylinder engine, manual transmission. Did the job perfectly well.

What we rail against here are excessively dumb financial decisions.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: PeteD01 on August 14, 2015, 03:23:27 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: SwordGuy on August 14, 2015, 06:51:43 AM
I'm sure there are lots of sports cars and muscle cars out there that are bought for very high price for nothing but performance and show that get even worse mpg than even a huge truck.  Again, why is no one trashing on those? 

The parking lots in my town aren't chock full of muscle cars and sports cars.  They are full to overflowing with extra big, extra glitzy, extra shiny trucks.   I see very few old trucks that show signs of actually being used to haul cargo.  That's why I bash on trucks as a stupid financial decision instead of the other options.   

It's for the same reason I don't bash on how stupid it is for people to die from eating too much in one setting - stupid as that would be - because it's just not a large scale problem... :)

A huge percentage of Americans approaching retirement age have less than 25,000 in savings.   That's terrible!

If someone purchased just one less 50,000 truck over their lifetime and replaced it with a 10,000 low mileage used car, they would have 40K to 50K in savings!   

The three biggest cost drivers for most folks on a track to retirement are housing, vehicles and medical.   Of the three, vehicles are the easiest to fix because almost everyone has 100% control over which type and price point of vehicle they choose.   (Yes some people are extra large or extra small, but MOST people are not. Ditto on health-related restrictions.)

You may need to live in an area because your elderly parents need taking care of and won't move.  You may need to live in an area because you can't afford to leave it or because it's where the jobs with your skillset are located.

You can control whether you get some medical illnesses but many are simply the bad luck of the draw.

Buying an inexpensive vehicle is an easy, easy, easy way to improve finances significantly.

Let's say I buy a vehicle every ten years, from 16 to 66.  That's six vehicles.   Lots of people buy way more often than that.

Let's assume we pay cash so there is no interest charges and that converting our savings into cash for the purchase didn't cost anything either.

6 vehicles times $10,000 equals $60,000.
6 vehicles times $40,000 (median price for new cars is around $33,000, and the glitzy trucks are on the higher end than many sedans) equals $240,000.

So, even assuming we put the savings in the mattress at 0% interest growth, and that both vehicles get the same mileage, and miraculously the insurance companies and license plate bureaus will charge the same fees (they won't!), we're still talking $180,000 in savings.  That's huge!  Especially considering all those folks with less than $25,000 in savings when they hit retirement!

Throw in 8 year financing for the expensive vehicles and some compounding on the savings and we're talking about an even bigger spread!

For almost everyone, buying the more expensive vehicle is an extremely foolish financial decision.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 14, 2015, 07:23:05 AM
This is hilarious.  I see we have some trolls on here ;)  One of the things other threads have noted is that mustacians can be very critical if others aren't living their exact same frugal ways. 

Here's my favorite cyclist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI)

Here's my favorite cyclist after buying a car (at 16:35) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqUCpJuolFY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqUCpJuolFY)

And here is an article by Edmunds about the costs of powering electric cars, but not the cost of everything in regards to the car or overall environment impact... still might shed some light on this for those who aren't in the know: http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html (http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html)

and another one on a price guide for electric cars http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080871_electric-car-price-guide-every-2012-2013-plug-in-car-with-specs (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080871_electric-car-price-guide-every-2012-2013-plug-in-car-with-specs)  As you can see, they are not cheap on upfront costs. 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: shotgunwilly on August 14, 2015, 07:55:43 AM
I'm sure there are lots of sports cars and muscle cars out there that are bought for very high price for nothing but performance and show that get even worse mpg than even a huge truck.  Again, why is no one trashing on those? 

The parking lots in my town aren't chock full of muscle cars and sports cars.  They are full to overflowing with extra big, extra glitzy, extra shiny trucks.   I see very few old trucks that show signs of actually being used to haul cargo.  That's why I bash on trucks as a stupid financial decision instead of the other options.   

It's for the same reason I don't bash on how stupid it is for people to die from eating too much in one setting - stupid as that would be - because it's just not a large scale problem... :)

A huge percentage of Americans approaching retirement age have less than 25,000 in savings.   That's terrible!

If someone purchased just one less 50,000 truck over their lifetime and replaced it with a 10,000 low mileage used car, they would have 40K to 50K in savings!   

The three biggest cost drivers for most folks on a track to retirement are housing, vehicles and medical.   Of the three, vehicles are the easiest to fix because almost everyone has 100% control over which type and price point of vehicle they choose.   (Yes some people are extra large or extra small, but MOST people are not. Ditto on health-related restrictions.)


They'd save even more if they choose not to have kids. Again... lifestyle choice.  To get on a forum and bash people for buying trucks is pointless.  Why don't I just start a thread making fun of all the "idiots" that spend thousands of dollars having kids.  But, I guess there is worse stuff on the internet. 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 14, 2015, 08:44:05 AM
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: fb132 on August 14, 2015, 08:46:55 AM
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.
You are wrong, he bashes people with what he calls McMansions, so he does bash those with huge castles as homes.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 14, 2015, 08:52:44 AM
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.
You are wrong, he bashes people with what he calls McMansions, so he does bash those with huge castles as homes.

I didn't say that he never addresses houses. He just doesn't spend much time on it. He set a good example on downsizing to more practical housing and talked about the extra funds he got as a result of it, but he definitely spends much more time bashing trucks and cars in general than he does housing.

Also it doesn't have to be a McMansion to be more house than is financially optimal.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 14, 2015, 09:01:40 AM
selling a truck and down sizing is a much easier and faster move for many people.  if you notice he tries to come at it from the angle that will appeal to vast majority.  Its harder for some people to understand why their house is bad for being mustachian vs their vehicle. 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: BCBiker on August 14, 2015, 09:25:49 AM
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

I must admit that my shared hatred of big unnecessary vehicles does attract me to his blog more than other things.

There is a similarity between excessive housing and big trucks in that many people do not realize how bad of a financial decision their housing choice is. Often, people even think it is a good decision when it is not.

 I think, however, that unlike purchasing a BIG truck (ok. fine. owners of Ford Rangers and similarly sized truck are probably not in need of a Face Punch if they have some specific purpose and they bought it used and don't commute >20 miles per day), which is always a bad financial decision no matter how you try to justify it, purchasing a larger house than you need can occasionally be good.

I don't advocate for buy a huge house because it can always go both ways. But it is a leveraged potentially appreciating asset.  Thus if you buy a 2000 sq ft home in a rapidly appreciating market, you are going to be further ahead that if you by a 1200 sq ft home in the same markte.  Of course there are factors that negate these forces such as increase heating/cooling, tax and insurance costs of larger homes.  As MMM illustrates, there are ways to minimize these home expenses though. On the flip side, it is difficult to minimize the major expenses of a truck (depreciation, insurance, fuel).

Here is an example of how buying to big of a house could work in one's favor. I live in a reasonably sized townhome with 3 adults (spouse and elderly parent). If we had bought a house double the size of our current home across the street in a very ritzy neighborhood in 2010, paying maybe $100k more than our current home, we would now be sitting on $400-500k more equity than what we currently have. So perhaps that would have been a good decision. Hindsight is 20/20 or course.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Eric on August 14, 2015, 10:39:01 AM
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

So you just want us to bash people with ridiculous housing choices more?  Challenge accepted! 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: waffle on August 14, 2015, 11:12:41 AM
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

So you just want us to bash people with ridiculous housing choices more?  Challenge accepted! 

Yup. I think its worthwhile to get some details about the situation before we jump in and face punch everyone that owns a truck or a large house (there are exceptions to every rule...), but If someone claims to want FIRE and they buy something they shouldn't have then there should be equal opportunity face punches for all.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Guses on August 14, 2015, 11:20:58 AM
There are still a lot of people, even on here, who don't DIY anything, so they don't see the need for a truck.  Even with less gas mileage and a payment, if you're using your truck to do things, you can very easily pay less in life just thanks to the cheaper costs of those DIY projects.  Insurance on his trucks combined is way less than on my 2014 Honda Accord.


Oh Pleeeeaaaase, come on! I am the kind of guy that DIY the heck out of everything that I can. In fact, I just hauled several tons of wooden beams for a project on my house. Do you know what I drive? This teeny tiny little hatchback!

Sure, I may have saved a few trips having a truck because I could have hauled everything in one trip, but saying that you need a truck to DIY is pure horse manure. Most cars can easily tow 800 pounds throught the addition of a 100$ class 1 hitch. BONUS: Most DIY places lend or loan trailers.

 

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Guses on August 14, 2015, 11:22:47 AM
True, electric is very dependent on which state you're in and how your state gets its power.  My state has so many rivers, it uses all hydroelectric power.  But if environment is all people are concerned about, the Prius is far from the greenest vehicle, just sayin.  The 70s Scout is the greenest vehicle, or one of those 70s suburban things, its surprising once you stop looking at a small part of the bigger picture... its the entire life of a vehicle, how long parts last, cost of making and discarding all those parts, to include batteries, and fuel mileage is only part of the cost of owning a vehicle.

If you just need something to hate, and a jerk was driving the truck, or whatever vehicle, that you felt insulted you on the road... well, haters gonna hate, but you won't win a 'trucks suck' argument with a DIYer.

I invite you to read this very informative post:

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html  (http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html)
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 14, 2015, 11:31:01 AM
Ok, Do-It-Yourselfer (DIY) truck owners, time to argue...

In the last year, my wife and I have renovated two houses. 

Would owning a truck be more convenient than our car for this purpose?  Of course.  Duh.

But owning my own private plane and airport, with my own staff of 24-7 aircrew so I can take a long-distance vacation without standing in line at the public airport would be more convenient, too.   It would also be ludicrously expensive for the value it provided me.

So, let's explore the following questions:

(1) Do I need a truck to renovate the houses, given that I need lots of sheet rock, plywood, 2x4s, 2x6s, 4x4s, etc.?

No, I do not.   If I have a really big order of materials, I can have Lowe's deliver it for about $80.
I might need that once per house, or maybe twice per house if there's a lot of work.  I'll wager that, with major repairs on two different houses this last year, I'm doing way more DIY work than most folks.

That's $160 to $320 for deliveries.   A roof rack (1 time cost) is less than $200.  That's less than a single monthly truck payment. 

(2) What is the relative cost difference between that and my sedan with a roof-rack?

I can buy a new Ford sedan for less than $15,000.   The typical truck in the parking lot at work is in the $40,000 to $60,000 price range.   That's 3 to 4 times as expensive.   A stripped down Ford truck is $25,000, which is $10,000 more than the sedan.

So, if I buy 30+ houses and fix them up I'll break even on the cash price of both vehicles.   Oh, yeah.  Cash price.  But most people finance so maybe that's more like 40+ houses...

I'm ignoring the extra insurance costs, and the extra gas costs too.   

Sorry, as a very active DIYer, buying a new truck instead of a new sedan makes zero sense.

+1

I fully renovated our large basement (drywall, flooring, plywood, lumber, electrical, plumbing, doors, etc.) by getting two large deliveries made . . . maybe a 70-80$ cost at the time.  As Guses said, it is a total myth that you need a truck to do heavy DIY stuff.

(I can fit sixteen eight foot long 2x4s in my corolla with no problems BTW).

(I have biked down to the local home depot with a friend, purchased a huge load of supplies, rented a truck, driven to my house and unloaded it, taken the truck back and then we biked home to get working . . . so you don't even need a car to do some heavy DIY home renos.)
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Kaspian on August 14, 2015, 12:37:26 PM
What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see.

Oh my fuck.  It's like arguing whether or not a wolverine makes a good pet.  Transporting 3 tons around (with nothing in the cargo) to carry one 200lb grown man is clown behaviour under any circumstance.  You need groceries?  You bike with your trailer.  Or, unless you're buying a side of butchered moose, you fill up the trunk of your Honda Fit.  MMM wrote a huge diatribe about how he did his major construction projects with a mini-van.  ...WITH. A. MINI-VAN.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: rulesofacquisition on August 14, 2015, 12:40:35 PM
Wow, this got awfully heated, didn't it? I guess I can see both sides since I own a 3/4 ton 4x4 long bed, extended cab truck. It was ordered new (pre-mustache cultivation) completely stripped except AC, a trailer hitch, and higher rear end gears (no hills here). At the time I was towing horse trailers, and camping in remote areas, which meant driving on dirt roads or off road with the trailer. I got the long bed so a gooseneck trailer wouldn't put out the back window when I turned sharp. I got extended cab so 2 people could sleep in the truck (other people's loose horses tend to run through tents) and because it was also my dailer driver, and needed kid and grocery room. Not jacked up either, or loud exhaust, why would I want a tow vehicle with those liabilities? I still have it 12 years later (lost horses and farm) but it still hauls firewood, trash, construction material, etc. I do, however, have a company car, so the truck does sit. I do get a good laugh out of trucks with no trailer hitches or scratches in the bed. This one will be showing up shortly in my case study, so keep an eye out if you want to face punch me for still owning it.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Pav on August 14, 2015, 01:15:21 PM
Three years ago, I bought a 1999 Ranger regular cab off of craigslist for $2000. It has served me well over the past three years of home renovations, salvation army runs to furnish said home, and helping in-law siblings move 2x. I figure, if I bought a cheap used fuel efficient car, and had rented a truck for those times I needed one, I'd be enough to close for me to not lose sleep over it.

I know I don't haul mulch, salt, and lumber on a daily basis that warrants the purchase, but I feel that I've gotten my money's worth out of it, even if it only gets close to 21 mpg.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 14, 2015, 01:21:32 PM
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

You sound like a troll.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: MoonShadow on August 14, 2015, 02:04:50 PM
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

You sound like a troll.

Delta, you are a kind and thoughtful person, to put it so softly.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 14, 2015, 02:13:06 PM
I've got a 2014 RAM1500 with a shell.  I'm also RE.

I've used it a TON this summer.  I've been to or through 21 states since March and I've put 16,000 trouble free miles on it during that time.  I haul the bike, the dog and the camping gear.  Sleeping for two in the back on a memory foam mattress is very comfy.  The truck is very safe and the ride is the most comfortable of any vehicle I've ever owned - even after driving 12 hrs per day. 

Soon it will be towing my refurbished travel-trailer and visiting all the national parks in the U.S.  I love the fucking thing!

If you don't like trucks then don't buy one.  If you are comfortable hauling your bicycles, dog, camping gear and also sleeping in your Prius, then knock yourself out.  I won't judge you for that.

MOST trucks are not used like this, though.

The post where someone had a truck as a third vehicle - makes perfect sense!

Sleeping in the back - ok, cool, not the most efficient (minivan might be better, but whatever).

Commuting with nothing in the bed? IT'S STUPID.

Also, flying is similarly bad. I do a transatlantic flight pretty much every year and I feel shitty about it because it basically negates all the commuting I don't do.

People getting defensive - I get it, nobody likes criticism. I'm a hypocrite - used to be vegetarian, organic, train and bike to work... I buy new and secondhand gadgets, I now buy cheap food because organic is so expensive in Canada, I own a Crown Vic which I love (though it does less than 5k km a year).

But what can you do. You can accept you're a really lucky fucker vs every metric, and try not to wreck the planet. Frugality and environmentalism go hand in hand.
So a Crown Vic with a 4.? V-8 is saving the planet? Maybe that's a hybrid Crown Vic :-)! I know I've read a lot of threads in these forums of members who have big old V-8 sedans and wagon, V-6 vans that get less than 20 mpg, or some newer very expensive Mustangs and the like Or that $100K plus Tesla!), yet we only seem to trash on trucks. Why is that?

As I said in another post - deflection. We don't own up to our own shittiness. "I changed my lightbulbs to CFL, I'm green!" "I recycle, I'm green!" "Oh look at that **** in his truck! Hahaha, off I go for 500 miles in my Civic/Matrix/Vibe".

There's no point defending myself to you because I don't defend myself to myself - I could cut my carbon emissions by 30-40% probably, by not flying. My car makes a miniscule amount because I drive it so little - and I drive carefully - but the fact I can tow with it is very useful.

Why do green/frugal people bash on trucks? Because MOST trucks are used poorly and are environmentally horrible (3x a Civic perhaps?)/financially horrible.

PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD WHO USE THEIR TRUCKS SENSIBLY: It's cool, the rest of the thread is not criticizing you! Do what you want!

People in massive houses - if that's what you want, again, cool! If you've got solar whatever, or live in a temperate climate, or have 17 children - do what you've got to do.

As Jesus, should he have existed etc etc etc, said - look for the whatsit in your own eye before worrying about the monster truck of the guy down the road.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 14, 2015, 04:44:02 PM
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

You sound like a troll.

Not a troll just don't see why people feel the need to try to get others to buy in on their life choices. Live your life find out what works for you and move on. If you need to compensate with a jacked up truck do it.

I'll bet 90% of this forum doesn't

1. Live biking distance or less to work
2 own one awesome fuel efficient car per family
3. Live in a house the exact right size for their needs
4. Use a close line to dry their clothes
5 . eat 95% of meals at home
6 .......

You get the point. Take what works bend it to your lifestyle choice. Crying about why people bash on something on here thats supid for 99% of Americans to own accomplishes what exactly. Nothing really.

If it takes a thread for you to get validation you're making the right choice doing something against the true blue ways of mustachianism. You probably shouldn't have whatever that thread is about BC there likely is a more cost effective work around.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: JLee on August 14, 2015, 04:58:11 PM
Big trucks are simply a status symbol screaming for attention.

There is no other reason to have a Ford F-150 raptor or god-forbid any lifted truck/SUV*.


* lifted truck: Maybe if you're a farmer or something. Even then it would ideally be smaller in size to have less chance of getting stuck. I know many of the massive trucks that off-road here end up needing to be rescued by the smaller non-monster trucks in muddy situations.

I can guarantee you have spent minimal to no time off road if you are universally decreeing a lifted truck to have no purpose. Perhaps we have different definitions of lifted in mind, but to me that means any height over stock.

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

This is just for you. (http://www.squashingrocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/baja-day4-1.jpg)

Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...

Fuel mileage isn't everything, see my above post.  Not all trucks are created equal, as well.


"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco (http://expeditionportal.com/destinations-cocos-corner-baja-mexico/) saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 14, 2015, 05:06:16 PM
In most cases, a single person driving a empty min-van is no different than a single person driving a truck with an empty box. And, of course, the people dumping on the person with a truck probably don't know the length of their commute, what that person does with the truck when not commuting, or what their spouse may be driving for a longer commute.

I drive a Subaru 6 kilometers to work and get to listen to a smug greenie brag about her Prius...that she drives 45 kilometers to work. If I still had my Dodge Dakota (with an empty box most of the time), I'd still be using less fuel than she does.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 14, 2015, 05:30:48 PM
In most cases, a single person driving a empty min-van is no different than a single person driving a truck with an empty box. And, of course, the people dumping on the person with a truck probably don't know the length of their commute, what that person does with the truck when not commuting, or what their spouse may be driving for a longer commute.

I drive a Subaru 6 kilometers to work and get to listen to a smug greenie brag about her Prius...that she drives 45 kilometers to work. If I still had my Dodge Dakota (with an empty box most of the time), I'd still be using less fuel than she does.

Why are you driving that distance at all is probably a better question.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 14, 2015, 05:32:20 PM
Bottom line. Everything seen as a waste is bashed on here its the culture. It's what makes this site great its what pulls the complainy pants off people. 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Eric on August 14, 2015, 06:34:29 PM
"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco (http://expeditionportal.com/destinations-cocos-corner-baja-mexico/) saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)

It's about the right tool for the job.  Using your jacked up truck for your daily 50 mile suburban commute is like using a sledgehammer to pound in your trim nails.  Are you really disputing that the vast, vast majority of people own a truck for uses that require no truck?  How many of those "Texas Edition" F-150s that cost at least $40k go off roading?  Most I see are so shiny without a scratch on them, that I'd bet the owners wouldn't even consider doing that for fear of getting their paint messed up.  Then they complain about gas prices, of course.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 14, 2015, 06:50:02 PM
Big trucks are simply a status symbol screaming for attention.

There is no other reason to have a Ford F-150 raptor or god-forbid any lifted truck/SUV*.


* lifted truck: Maybe if you're a farmer or something. Even then it would ideally be smaller in size to have less chance of getting stuck. I know many of the massive trucks that off-road here end up needing to be rescued by the smaller non-monster trucks in muddy situations.

I can guarantee you have spent minimal to no time off road if you are universally decreeing a lifted truck to have no purpose. Perhaps we have different definitions of lifted in mind, but to me that means any height over stock.

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

This is just for you. (http://www.squashingrocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/baja-day4-1.jpg)

Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...

Fuel mileage isn't everything, see my above post.  Not all trucks are created equal, as well.


"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco (http://expeditionportal.com/destinations-cocos-corner-baja-mexico/) saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)

" truckness " like things. Yeah it's an expensive hobby regardless. Just like boats. I use a boat for "boatness" like things doesn't make it an acceptable thing on these forums.

Shit

May as well own your own rocket ship mortgaged to eternity BC you like space and use it for "rocketness" type things. Still won't make it acceptable on these forums.

I mean I can come up with great rocket ship excuses right now. 

1. I use it a ton its part of my life every weekend I go up to space on it
2. I still save 70+% of my salary even though I burn MM  in fuel and costs every weekend I go up.
3 how many people get to go to space in their life
4. When I go to space i stay out for weeks at a time and its the only vehicle that can get me there. I sleep there and have my own garden and bed its pretty much self sustaining.
5. You wouldn't understand BC its space and all you do is live on earth.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Syonyk on August 14, 2015, 06:54:39 PM
Because it's a popular group to hate on?  *shrug*

I've got a rather large truck, it gets mostly used to haul things, and at some point in the reasonably near future, tow a large 5th wheel camper while we tour the country homeschooling our kids.  It should literally last me the rest of my life if I take good care of it - under 100k miles on a 7.3 Powerstroke. ;)

Other than that, it sits around and irritates an HOA board member who has a tiny bit of power, since I bike to work.  Amusingly, while it bugs the hell out of some of the HOA people, all the people who live near me don't mind it, because I'll go ask them if they need stuff hauled when I'm doing a dump run, and I've helped various of them move things they needed moving.

It's still in the "a bit pricey" region of new-to-me maintenance, but it's nearly 20 years old, and parts are just large & a bit expensive.  As I intend to haul around the country with it, I don't mind spending money on high quality bits and pieces if something needs replacement.

Now, for fun, go ask how much some people have spent on their bicycles. :)
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 14, 2015, 07:04:28 PM
I wasn't asking you to defend yourself, just making a point that the Crown Vic can get worse gas mileage and be just as polluting as a big truck. People seeing you drive it don't know that you only drive a few thousand miles a year and that it isn't right to make a judgment call on your personal vehicle usage (or your character as a person) just because you have a Crown Vic. I probably drive my truck as much as you do (put about 60K miles on it over an 8 year period) and it's my only vehicle (although I do sometimes rent). But if it were a big truck, and it only get 17 mpg so really it doesn't matter the size, people would be trashing on me for my usage even though 80% of the time I ride my bike everywhere. But ...truck - bad no matter the circumstances. But mainly my point was why is it just trucks? Why not other vehicles? Someone above made the comment that MMM did his renovations using a mini van but even a newer mini van only averages about 20 mph - some newer ones like a Town and Country average 17 mpg and only 11 mpg in town,  - and all older vans are far worse. Even the small 4 cylinder Mazda 5 I rented for a month only got around 24 on average and much less around town (like 18 or so) far worse then even some of the newer big trucks. Same with some of the smaller 4 cylinder SUVs. So my point, like I believe the OPs point was, if you are going to car bash, car bash everything that is expensive & gets bad mpg.   And make sure the truck or giant SUV you are trashing isn't a hybrid or diesel getting better mpg than the average sedan. 

 MINIVANS Overall mpg = 19 or higher
average/city/highway
1 Ford Transit Connect XLT (2.5L) 21/ 15/ 27
2 Honda Odyssey 21/ 13/ 31
3 Toyota Sienna XLE (FWD) 20/ 14/ 27
4 Kia Sedona EX 20/ 13/ 28
5 Toyota Sienna XLE (AWD) 19/ 13/ 24
6 Nissan Quest SL 19/ 13/ 24

I'm from the UK. I could go off on a rant about how stupid automatic transmissions are, central forced air is, GMO is, the US Military is, Christianity is.

All of those things are stupid for some applications but just are the default. Trucks are the same. The reason this mostly North American forum rags on trucks is because they are a very visible stupidity, with a medium chance of being correct.

This is a 'community' of frugal people, and because we are human we tend toward the lowest common denominator. The truth is nearly 'it isn't that simple' but unless you can expound at length... well, nobody ain't got time fo' dat.

People can make changes to their lives to make them financially better off. Sometimes it's incremental, sometimes it can be revolutionary. Some people here can simply not see that THEIR truck is a hindrance to their finances. They may even be right!

But people are getting their backs up when people say "trucks" when what is meant is "inefficient use of resources".

"Trucks" is just a typically human bogeyman.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: JLee on August 14, 2015, 07:30:32 PM
"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco (http://expeditionportal.com/destinations-cocos-corner-baja-mexico/) saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)

It's about the right tool for the job.  Using your jacked up truck for your daily 50 mile suburban commute is like using a sledgehammer to pound in your trim nails.  Are you really disputing that the vast, vast majority of people own a truck for uses that require no truck?  How many of those "Texas Edition" F-150s that cost at least $40k go off roading?  Most I see are so shiny without a scratch on them, that I'd bet the owners wouldn't even consider doing that for fear of getting their paint messed up.  Then they complain about gas prices, of course.

Of course not - I am disputing the general mindset of "there's absolutely no reason anybody should ever have one of these horrible creations."  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here.  Your experience and viewpoint may vary, but that doesn't mean it's the only one.

I would retire earlier if I didn't have an offroad vehicle. Or if I didn't have a car making 400hp. But then my life would be shittier, because that's what I love to do. Some people have kids. Some people have other hobbies. Blah blah.  It's all about priorities, amirite?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: MoonShadow on August 14, 2015, 07:32:07 PM
  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here. 

After all, what else is there to do on a Saturday night?  Cruise the Wal-mart parking lot?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: JLee on August 14, 2015, 11:38:53 PM
  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here. 

After all, what else is there to do on a Saturday night?  Cruise the Wal-mart parking lot?

Not sure if srs.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/01/26/phoenix-arizona-bucket-list/22363587/
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: MoonShadow on August 15, 2015, 12:25:56 AM
  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here. 

After all, what else is there to do on a Saturday night?  Cruise the Wal-mart parking lot?

Not sure if srs.

Not even a little bit.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: firewalker on August 15, 2015, 01:02:30 AM
Maybe cuz its easy? Like bashing the president. The POTUS is always on TV, in the news, with public speaches, plenty to make fun of. All the other politicians are just as bash-worthy but you have to look beyond primetime to see it.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: worms on August 15, 2015, 01:30:47 AM


I'm from the UK. I could go off on a rant about how stupid automatic transmissions are, central forced air is, GMO is, the US Military is, Christianity is.

"Trucks" is just a typically human bogeyman.

Lol!  This thread makes me want to get my 21 year-old Land Rover back on the road!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 15, 2015, 08:17:23 AM
In most cases, a single person driving a empty min-van is no different than a single person driving a truck with an empty box. And, of course, the people dumping on the person with a truck probably don't know the length of their commute, what that person does with the truck when not commuting, or what their spouse may be driving for a longer commute.

I drive a Subaru 6 kilometers to work and get to listen to a smug greenie brag about her Prius...that she drives 45 kilometers to work. If I still had my Dodge Dakota (with an empty box most of the time), I'd still be using less fuel than she does.

Why are you driving that distance at all is probably a better question.

Because 5k of the commute is on a dangerous highway with a gravel shoulder.
Because I don't like arriving at work sweaty or frozen.
Because I really don't like riding a bike that much.

It costs me less than $2 a day to drive to work, which is less than taking a bus. My commute takes 8-10 minutes. To me, the time saved and increased comfort is worth $2. There are other far more effective ways to save money.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 15, 2015, 08:30:00 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Johnez on August 15, 2015, 08:32:24 AM
90% of my workmates have trucks. Big trucks. They talk about "real trucks," lift kits, exhaust kits, light bars, etc. I find it hilarious and a big pointless waste of money. That is, if it was MY money.

To these guys, it makes em happy. More power to them. There are many here who have excessive tastes in other areas. Fine foods and fancy wines. Gadgets, pets, projects, and hobbies. Different things make different people happy.

I don't pass judgement anymore. I have a tank of fish, an air conditioner, and do go out and spend money at restaurants every now and then. Those be my vices, everyone's got 'em.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: bsmith on August 15, 2015, 09:29:39 AM
There's a difference between 1. people who buy fancy cars and trucks because they like to hang out with their friends and talk about them, or work on them, or go to drag races, or otherwise enjoy a subculture related to cars and 2. people who buy fancy cars and trucks because that's what they think they are supposed to do to be successful. The difference lies in belonging to a community versus being a mindless consumer sucka.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: ender on August 15, 2015, 10:01:46 AM
The reasons I bash trucks are because of the reasons people normally give for having them. I don't really mind if someone says, "I really don't need it, but I like it."

But when people say:

Quote
"I need to haul stuff"

My cheapo wagon is more useful for hauling most things than a big truck. And where my wagon fails, a fuel efficient minivan will dominate most trucks (especially for weather).

Short bed trucks are the worst, you need a topper to handle the seasons and the only advantage they normally provide is hauling REALLY weird shaped items (which again, a minivan probably does just as well).

A few people will at least haul dead animals in them, and at that point they finally use the bed (vs interior of a vehicle).

Quote
"I need to tow stuff"

Most people who come from this perspective don't actually tow stuff often if not ever. Owning a truck to tow something once a year is a waste of money.

Then, that is based on the assumption that non-trucks cannot tow. Plenty of vehicles have towing capacities too (my inlaws have a van that can tow a huge boat based on its capacity and my parents have a big conversion van that is basically a truck frame -- except a van, so it's useful for more than 2 people too and has way more space).

My dumb little wagon has a 900lb towing capacity. Am I going to pull a trailer around all the time with it, no, but if I need it once a year then why not?

Quote
"winter is scary!"

I don't know why drivers of 4WD vehicles like trucks/SUVs seem to think that somehow 4WD translates to magically being able to deal with ice, but... well they do.

There are benefits, sure, but it sure seems you see a high percentage of trucks/SUVs in the ditches in the winter. Why? Probably because their drivers don't get physics and forget that ice doesn't let you stop regardless of how many wheel drive you have.



Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: PeteD01 on August 15, 2015, 10:17:20 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I like your math, but you are using it to come up with a rationalization to support a particular preferred behavior. Once your numbers are used in light of current scientific evidence, the opposite behavior appears to be more advantageous. Avoiding 3000 hours of sitting, gaining five years of quality life at savings of 30k is as good at it can get in my book. It's the difference between rationalized behavior and rational behavior.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 15, 2015, 10:34:35 AM
Yeah that's probably it. Something everyone sees everyday and it's in your face when other spendy and/or high polluting excesses aren't as visible.

I personally took the OPs post as not defending trucks as so many other's seemed to think it was, but asking why we bash on trucks specifically (I think everyone here, even us truck owners, know that they can be bash-worthy when compared to other forms of transportation) but why do we ONLY seem to bash trucks and not many other expensive, wasteful, and/or polluting things. Or why do we feel the need to personally trash the people' character who drive them but not those who do other things. Again, to use the cruise ship thread example, here's a bunch of people dropping thousands a year, year after year after year,  to fly to a destination, hop on a ginormous floating pollution factory of wasteful indulgences, and spend a couple of weeks cruising around in one of the most environmental damaging things out there (unless you are on a sailing vessel) yet no one is calling them fat, lazy, etc... because they aren't just tenting for free out in the wilderness. I think about MMM in terms of personal choice - for one person it's a truck, for another it's cruising (or whatever your luxury is) but for some reason the truck thing really riles people up and makes them spew a lot of personal negative judgment about a person's character in a way not too many other things do.

Cruises are awful, IMHO. The staff are treated terribly and get paid terribly.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 15, 2015, 10:44:39 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I looked it up, so maybe you should, too?? Three or four 30 minute sessions of cardio a week is all one needs if it's done right. I'm interested in fitness and health, not endurance training.

The American Heart Association specifically states:

- At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

- At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity"
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: PeteD01 on August 15, 2015, 11:42:33 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I looked it up, so maybe you should, too?? Three or four 30 minute sessions of cardio a week is all one needs if it's done right. I'm interested in fitness and health, not endurance training.

The American Heart Association specifically states:

- At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

- At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity"

I'm aware of the recommendation and you are just repeating what I wrote in my last post. Your exercise regimen is what the American Heart Association recommends to the average couch potato to reduce their risk of succumbing to cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately, all cause mortality is much more important than lowering your risk for cardiovascular disease.

The most interesting thing about the recommendation is how little it is supposed to take to eliminate inactivity related risk factors from the cardiovascular risk profile. That alone makes it suspicious, but, I guess one can forgive the American Heart Association because all cause mortality is in large part outside their jurisdiction.

Here is my opinion: Two to three hours of moderate exercise a week as a way to counteract the effects of a sedentary lifestyle sounds way to good to be true. The underlying assumption is that it is possible to weigh a certain amount of exercise against a certain amount of inactivity and things will be fine. That idea is so 19th century that it makes me laugh. On a more serious note, there is no evidence that such a small amount of exercise can reduce all cause mortality and the American Heart Association has made no effort, that I know of, to publicize that.


Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Dicey on August 15, 2015, 12:01:08 PM
DH has a 2002 Ford F150 Super Cab. He bought it new for 20K out the door. It now has 85,000 miles and KBB values it at $6150. It would probably sell for more because it has really nice Harley Davidson rims that he got a screaming deal on years ago ($200, thanks Craigslist) and is excellent condition. 

- He is a painting contractor by trade, so there's that. Of course it's white.
- He now works for a local utility and walks to work, so it's no longer an everyday driver.
- We use it all.the.time for hauling life's big stuff.
- We have a rental property eight hours away and occasionally use it to haul materials there, such as when we painted the exterior last year.
- It is surprisingly comfortable on a road trip.
- We just flipped a house locally and used the truck every single day.
- We don't drive it that much so gas mileage is fairly irrelevant.
- He also does his own repairs and maintenance, so minimal cost there.

Our truck has years of good life left in it. We don't anticipate needing another any time soon, but when the time comes, you can bet we'll be buying a truck again.
We are FI, partly because of DH's former side gig. And yeah, painting houses and big buildings requires the use of a truck.

Monster truck (to compensate for lack of height?) = laughably stupid (Feel free to keep bashing.)
Sensible truck to do work that leads to FI = mustachian all the way, baby! (FI for him, FIRE for me, freedom for both of us, hooray)

Finally, I love it because he looks good in it ;-).
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: sixup on August 15, 2015, 12:10:26 PM
In this case can it really be a "to each his own" kind of thing?

If too many people are thoughtlessly wasting resources it affects all of us. I think deep down this is what causes the negative reaction towards big truck drivers.

Sure we all produce waste, but at least be a little thoughtful about it. Some people see it as a badge of honor or something. "Yeah look at how big my truck is, it gets 8 mph hardy har, my peen must be hyooge, screw you hippies!"
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Fuman on August 15, 2015, 03:21:33 PM

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper. 
Quote from: boarder42

HAHAHA!  Oh my...
I think boarder42 was talking about me - the ONE GUY on this ENTIRE SITE that uses his truck "correctly".

Thank you, boarder42.  I'll rest easier at night knowing that a self-appointed busy-body has deemed my use "CORRECT".  I own this truck (which my last employer paid off 50%) because it kicks ass!  I'm not trying to prove anything here.  Camping, hauling gear & dog, sleeping in it, not to mention home improvement, landscape hauling, designated tail-gate provider at the games, go-to moving and hauler wing man, 4WD transport to the cabin etc. etc. gives me GREAT satisfaction!  All because I own a TRUCK.

I do agree with the semi operator here that said pick-up truck drivers have a reputation for driving like douches.  I try always to NOT prove that generalization true...I'm the friendliest guy on the road...

I'm RE and my 2014 RAM 1500 4WD is my only vehicle!  How is that possible?!  Maybe because I didn't reproduce multiple carbon copies of myself on an already over-populated planet; probably the most selfish thing I can imagine...but I digress.

If YOU are not yet RE then maybe YOU are doing it wrong?  Be like me and use your truck "CORRECTLY", or feel the wrath of self-righteous MMMers!  HAHAHAHA! 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 16, 2015, 06:53:59 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I looked it up, so maybe you should, too?? Three or four 30 minute sessions of cardio a week is all one needs if it's done right. I'm interested in fitness and health, not endurance training.

The American Heart Association specifically states:

- At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

- At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity"

I'm aware of the recommendation and you are just repeating what I wrote in my last post. Your exercise regimen is what the American Heart Association recommends to the average couch potato to reduce their risk of succumbing to cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately, all cause mortality is much more important than lowering your risk for cardiovascular disease.

The most interesting thing about the recommendation is how little it is supposed to take to eliminate inactivity related risk factors from the cardiovascular risk profile. That alone makes it suspicious, but, I guess one can forgive the American Heart Association because all cause mortality is in large part outside their jurisdiction.

Here is my opinion: Two to three hours of moderate exercise a week as a way to counteract the effects of a sedentary lifestyle sounds way to good to be true. The underlying assumption is that it is possible to weigh a certain amount of exercise against a certain amount of inactivity and things will be fine. That idea is so 19th century that it makes me laugh. On a more serious note, there is no evidence that such a small amount of exercise can reduce all cause mortality and the American Heart Association has made no effort, that I know of, to publicize that.

Thanks, doctor.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Khan on August 16, 2015, 07:09:58 AM
I just wanted to pull out two quotes from the last 3 pages...

Quote
Still won't make it [truck/rocket ownership] acceptable on these forums.
False. AFAICT, the essence of Mustachianism, which is all too often more like a religion as evangelized by some of the people in these forums, is "Conscious consumerism". If having a Miata gives you great pleasure in life, and you can afford to have it, then enjoy your life. If you think you need to step it up to owning a Corvette or a higher end sports car? Well, you're going to the extreme end, and you should really examine your choices, but again, it's your choice.

This is compared to unconscious, spendy and mindless consumerism, which is bad, especially if it causes you to completely miss the ideas of YMOYL/ERE/FIRE and live paycheck to paycheck, because that's stressful, short sighted, and objectively an inferior way to live if it's avoidable.

There's a difference between 1. people who buy fancy cars and trucks because they like to hang out with their friends and talk about them, or work on them, or go to drag races, or otherwise enjoy a subculture related to cars and 2. people who buy fancy cars and trucks because that's what they think they are supposed to do to be successful. The difference lies in belonging to a community versus being a mindless consumer sucka.

All of my this.

I drive a Focus ST, a decidedly un-mustachian(not >40 mpg, new, excessive horsepower), however even that could be considered mustachian on several levels for myself.
1. I -like- horsepower, and this is one of the cheapest, and most useable horsepower from an almost-econobox grade vehicle.
2. I tried the old used car thing for 2 years, it brought negative happiness value to my life because I didn't trust the vehicle
3. Even a new car can be mustachian if it's kept for many, many years, I do plan on keeping this into the 100k-200k mile range(or till it dies), I think ownership of it will mean I won't have that fear that my prior vehicle gave me.

Those in glass houses should not cast stones, and every single one of us, with our internet, our first world electricity, our washers and our dryers and dishwashers and appliances, none of us are without sin.

P.S. As a side note, I will admit that when I was shopping for vehicles, I failed to account for doc/sales tax even after all my research on vehicles and probably should've gone with the used model... but again, every mile put on this baby, and every quirk, I will have full knowledge of, and I do sleep better at night and enjoy my vehicle more because of that.

Edit: grammar
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: fa on August 16, 2015, 07:54:37 AM
It is amusing to read these posts.  It goes to show what a marvelous job the automobile industry marketing departments have done.  People buy on emotion (big truck makes you feel powerful, important and intimidating..) and then rationalize the purchase (I need to haul stuff, need the space, drive on snow, etc...).  The marketing has worked its wonders, and made many of these truck owners into wage slaves.

No shame in this.  We all succumb to these marketing messages more often than we care to admit.  I used to have a truck but sold it when I started tracking my expenses on Mint.  I couldn't stomach those pie charts any longer.  After selling the truck and buying a very small sensible car, I no longer get a knot in my stomach when looking at  Mint.  I am very happy with the small car and realize that my ego really doesn't need to fed with a monster to impress the neighbors.  Thanks for opening my eyes MMM.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Tomacco on August 16, 2015, 08:31:29 AM
I have a truck to haul stuff, which I do a lot as a landlord/ junk picker. I got it last year for $7500, it's a 2009 ford ranger, 4-cyl, rear wheel drive, manual, 95k miles. I average about 34 mpg, mostly city driving too.
I think it's a pretty mustacian vehicle. As far as trucks go, I couldn't find a better option.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: fb132 on August 16, 2015, 08:42:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzP2yzrKl28 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzP2yzrKl28)
Most ridiculous truck add ever
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 16, 2015, 09:15:35 AM
I have a truck to haul stuff, which I do a lot as a landlord/ junk picker. I got it last year for $7500, it's a 2009 ford ranger, 4-cyl, rear wheel drive, manual, 95k miles. I average about 34 mpg, mostly city driving too.
I think it's a pretty mustacian vehicle. As far as trucks go, I couldn't find a better option.

Your truck is absolutely NOT what is being discussed. Ford Rangers are awesome, especially the 2.3l version.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: PeteD01 on August 16, 2015, 09:17:17 AM
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I looked it up, so maybe you should, too?? Three or four 30 minute sessions of cardio a week is all one needs if it's done right. I'm interested in fitness and health, not endurance training.

The American Heart Association specifically states:

- At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

- At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity"

I'm aware of the recommendation and you are just repeating what I wrote in my last post. Your exercise regimen is what the American Heart Association recommends to the average couch potato to reduce their risk of succumbing to cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately, all cause mortality is much more important than lowering your risk for cardiovascular disease.

The most interesting thing about the recommendation is how little it is supposed to take to eliminate inactivity related risk factors from the cardiovascular risk profile. That alone makes it suspicious, but, I guess one can forgive the American Heart Association because all cause mortality is in large part outside their jurisdiction.

Here is my opinion: Two to three hours of moderate exercise a week as a way to counteract the effects of a sedentary lifestyle sounds way to good to be true. The underlying assumption is that it is possible to weigh a certain amount of exercise against a certain amount of inactivity and things will be fine. That idea is so 19th century that it makes me laugh. On a more serious note, there is no evidence that such a small amount of exercise can reduce all cause mortality and the American Heart Association has made no effort, that I know of, to publicize that.

Thanks, doctor.


I think this is an important subject but off topic in this thread.
I've started a new thread in the "off topic" section looking into the official recommendations regarding amount and intensity of exercise. Maybe some interesting discussion will come from it.

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: SwordGuy on August 16, 2015, 09:08:46 PM
2. I tried the old used car thing for 2 years, it brought negative happiness value to my life because I didn't trust the vehicle
3. Even a new car can be mustachian if it's kept for many, many years, I do plan on keeping this into the 100k-200k mile range(or till it dies), I think ownership of it will mean I won't have that fear that my prior vehicle gave me.

Those in glass houses should not cast stones,

Ok, I won't cast stones.

How about a healthy dose of LOGIC?

You don't trust used cars but will buy a new car and DRIVE IT USED for MANY, MANY YEARS.

That doesn't make a lick of sense!   No matter how new a car is when you buy it, after you've driven it for a while it's a used car.

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: darkhorse on August 16, 2015, 11:31:25 PM
Fun thread! The following is not to justify my truck ownership, because from experience and research I already know what I need and want. Just consider it another case study or data point for the conversation.

I have a late model mid-sized, crew cab, 4WD Nissan Frontier that I really enjoy. It has an overkill, inefficient but extremely reliable 4.0L V6. Maybe worth noting that in truck circles, this is not a "real truck". The reason I don't have a "real truck" because "real trucks" are a pain to park and negotiate in urban areas...and I still don't yet trust Big 3 reliability.

I bought it because my pastime is fishing and off-grid camping. Many of the places I go require high ground clearance and 4WD (in the winter especially). I also pull a drift boat and occasionally need to pull it out of steep, slippery boat ramps that absolutely require 4WD. We also rent a 2600# camp trailer a few times a year. My previous truck (same, but with 2WD and an anemic 4 cyl that powers the much lighter Altima), worked pretty well but I was limited in the places I could go and it struggled to pull the drift boat at speed, and wouldn't even attempt certain ramps with 2WD.

I looked at Subarus and decided that they could have achieved all of the above reasonably well except the drift boat and camper pulling. However, despite knowing that Subarus are reliable vehicles, it just came down to a truck vs car off-road durability. For what I'm doing with it, hands down, the truck is better designed for pounding into the dirt. For my needs, vehicles with similarly dismal operating costs such as another brand truck, a Jeep or an Xterra would suffice. A Forester, Odyssey, CRV, CX5, Impreza, Fit or yaris would not.

My truck has under 10k miles and already has serious gravel chips, a few dents and dings and has only been washed a few times. It's certainly not a status vehicle or else it would be gleaming. It's got no stupid accessories (huge off road jacks mounted to roof baskets), or special wheels. I simply upgraded to 10-ply tires because stock 4-ply have failed me more than once. Outside of it's intended use, I limit the miles.

I make an exception for my one pastime, and I'm conscious that it moves the needle out on my retirement date. My pastime is decidedly, unarguably unmustachian. My vehicle enables my pastime and is decidedly unmustachian too. But due to it's inherent capabilities, it allows me to pursue my hobby pretty much worry free, and that's where much of the enjoyment comes.


P.S. before I had the trucks I had a 90' Nissan Maxima with 250k miles. While it wasn't mustachian either, it was a super sleeper. I pushed it to it's off road limits when about 10 years ago, I bashed the transmission case while driving on a fire road looking for a fishing spot I had no business navigating to with a car! Still miss it.


Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: darkhorse on August 16, 2015, 11:55:25 PM
2. I tried the old used car thing for 2 years, it brought negative happiness value to my life because I didn't trust the vehicle
3. Even a new car can be mustachian if it's kept for many, many years, I do plan on keeping this into the 100k-200k mile range(or till it dies), I think ownership of it will mean I won't have that fear that my prior vehicle gave me.

Those in glass houses should not cast stones,

Ok, I won't cast stones.

How about a healthy dose of LOGIC?

You don't trust used cars but will buy a new car and DRIVE IT USED for MANY, MANY YEARS.

That doesn't make a lick of sense!   No matter how new a car is when you buy it, after you've driven it for a while it's a used car.

Guessing that Khanjar is uncomfortable not knowing the history of a used car if not purchased new.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Khan on August 17, 2015, 04:44:37 AM
2. I tried the old used car thing for 2 years, it brought negative happiness value to my life because I didn't trust the vehicle
3. Even a new car can be mustachian if it's kept for many, many years, I do plan on keeping this into the 100k-200k mile range(or till it dies), I think ownership of it will mean I won't have that fear that my prior vehicle gave me.

Those in glass houses should not cast stones,

Ok, I won't cast stones.

How about a healthy dose of LOGIC?

You don't trust used cars but will buy a new car and DRIVE IT USED for MANY, MANY YEARS.

That doesn't make a lick of sense!   No matter how new a car is when you buy it, after you've driven it for a while it's a used car.

Guessing that Khanjar is uncomfortable not knowing the history of a used car if not purchased new.

Yeah, that. Having a vehicle that's at 130k miles prior to my ownership, with issues cropping up as I own it for a couple thousand miles, just wasn't working for me, mentally. I do motorcycle roadtrips to my parents house 5 hours away, and would like to visit other family between 9-14 hours away via car(TSA can suck my ****), but there was never a chance of me feeling up to doing it in an old truck, and 5 hours on my motorcycle hurts. Also, truck bed vs. enclosed hatch/trunk and other benefits for my peace of mind.

I'm fairly certain that I'll trust the devil I know, a vehicle that I have full knowledge of it's entire service history and every little rattle and ding, over my prior used foray. If I keep it for 15-20 years, you really couldn't call it an entirely non-mustachian decision.

Humans are emotional and stupid, and I view my decision as emotionally irrational in the same way I view people who pay off their mortgage in this interest environment as making a decent but sub-optimal solution... whatever floats your boat. Or, tows your boat, to wrap this back around to truck ownership.

Edit: The used truck I had was a 2003 Mazda B2300 regular cab with a 4 banger, what would probably be considered one of the most mustachian truck type vehicles around.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: JLee on August 17, 2015, 08:21:07 AM
In this case can it really be a "to each his own" kind of thing?

If too many people are thoughtlessly wasting resources it affects all of us. I think deep down this is what causes the negative reaction towards big truck drivers.

Sure we all produce waste, but at least be a little thoughtful about it. Some people see it as a badge of honor or something. "Yeah look at how big my truck is, it gets 8 mph hardy har, my peen must be hyooge, screw you hippies!"

One could stretch that same argument to those families with tons of kids. We're already over-utilizing the earth's resources, so why have two people create four or six more?

IMHO what causes the negative reaction towards (xyz) is that many people obtain joy from ridiculing others.  There's an entire section on this forum devoted to just that.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Slee_stack on August 17, 2015, 08:55:56 AM
In this case can it really be a "to each his own" kind of thing?

If too many people are thoughtlessly wasting resources it affects all of us. I think deep down this is what causes the negative reaction towards big truck drivers.

Sure we all produce waste, but at least be a little thoughtful about it. Some people see it as a badge of honor or something. "Yeah look at how big my truck is, it gets 8 mph hardy har, my peen must be hyooge, screw you hippies!"

One could stretch that same argument to those families with tons of kids. We're already over-utilizing the earth's resources, so why have two people create four or six more?

IMHO what causes the negative reaction towards (xyz) is that many people obtain joy from ridiculing others.  There's an entire section on this forum devoted to just that.
Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Khan on August 17, 2015, 09:23:35 AM
In this case can it really be a "to each his own" kind of thing?

If too many people are thoughtlessly wasting resources it affects all of us. I think deep down this is what causes the negative reaction towards big truck drivers.

Sure we all produce waste, but at least be a little thoughtful about it. Some people see it as a badge of honor or something. "Yeah look at how big my truck is, it gets 8 mph hardy har, my peen must be hyooge, screw you hippies!"

One could stretch that same argument to those families with tons of kids. We're already over-utilizing the earth's resources, so why have two people create four or six more?

IMHO what causes the negative reaction towards (xyz) is that many people obtain joy from ridiculing others.  There's an entire section on this forum devoted to just that.
Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

Yes, failing to have a next generation while the current population gets older and older. Nobody should hope for a complete collapse in the birthrate and population, a gentle slope downwards would be better.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Kaspian on August 17, 2015, 09:36:51 AM
Wow, the "my truck is more eco-conscious than your kids" argument.  Well done!!  Right up there with, "biking isn't doing you that much good in the health department compared to my truck" presentation.  ...So I'm guessing you folks also go to a Batman forum and say the Batcave sort of sucks and Spiderman is the coolest? 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: sixup on August 17, 2015, 11:13:28 AM
In this case can it really be a "to each his own" kind of thing?

If too many people are thoughtlessly wasting resources it affects all of us. I think deep down this is what causes the negative reaction towards big truck drivers.

Sure we all produce waste, but at least be a little thoughtful about it. Some people see it as a badge of honor or something. "Yeah look at how big my truck is, it gets 8 mph hardy har, my peen must be hyooge, screw you hippies!"

One could stretch that same argument to those families with tons of kids. We're already over-utilizing the earth's resources, so why have two people create four or six more?

IMHO what causes the negative reaction towards (xyz) is that many people obtain joy from ridiculing others.  There's an entire section on this forum devoted to just that.
Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

I think this is incorrect. Smart people (such as the people on this forum <3) should have more kids to increase the chances of long term human success. Since we know dumb people won't think or care about that.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: catccc on August 17, 2015, 11:34:46 AM
I think we bash them because so many people that own trucks don't need them.

My family owns a truck, but I do think we need it because my husband is a beekeeper.  It is not really feasible to move live bees and smokers with lingering fuel in the interior of a car.  We have considered a trailer attachment for our matrix, but that kind of a hassle.

I will admit that I bought the truck for myself before I was married and long before he kept bees.  The rationale at the time was that I did a lot of gardening and it seemed we were always borrowing someone's truck to haul mulch or some other task.

I bought our 2004 dodge dakota new for near or possibly under $15K.  I financed it as a formality to score a cash back promo, but paid off the loan in a matter of a few months.  It now has about 112K miles on it and we expect it to get to double that without much trouble.  Fingers crossed!

It is rear wheel drive (we just don't go out in snow) and has manual everything.  You crank to put the windows down, you stick a key in a keyhole to unlock the thing.  Bare bones, it's limited features include a rear sliding window and a CD player.  Fuel efficiency is kinda meh, but I have squeezed maybe 24-25 mpg out of it with highway driving.

I was in an accident with it once, v. a kia sportage, and I'm pretty convinced I walked away unscathed due to it's size.  Even though it is a small-mid sized truck, it is solid.  I'm not sure I would have been so lucky in the matrix.  the kia was a mess. 
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 17, 2015, 05:48:06 PM
I think we bash them because so many people that own trucks don't need them.

My family owns a truck, but I do think we need it because my husband is a beekeeper.  It is not really feasible to move live bees and smokers with lingering fuel in the interior of a car.  We have considered a trailer attachment for our matrix, but that kind of a hassle.

I will admit that I bought the truck for myself before I was married and long before he kept bees.  The rationale at the time was that I did a lot of gardening and it seemed we were always borrowing someone's truck to haul mulch or some other task.

I bought our 2004 dodge dakota new for near or possibly under $15K.  I financed it as a formality to score a cash back promo, but paid off the loan in a matter of a few months.  It now has about 112K miles on it and we expect it to get to double that without much trouble.  Fingers crossed!

It is rear wheel drive (we just don't go out in snow) and has manual everything.  You crank to put the windows down, you stick a key in a keyhole to unlock the thing.  Bare bones, it's limited features include a rear sliding window and a CD player.  Fuel efficiency is kinda meh, but I have squeezed maybe 24-25 mpg out of it with highway driving.

I was in an accident with it once, v. a kia sportage, and I'm pretty convinced I walked away unscathed due to it's size.  Even though it is a small-mid sized truck, it is solid.  I'm not sure I would have been so lucky in the matrix.  the kia was a mess.

Trailer.

I'm currently debating replacing my Crown Vic with a Prius. CV has a hitch, and can do most things a small truck can do, but was much cheaper and is more flexible. Pretty much any car can have a smaller hitch and pull a little trailer.

I mean, whatever, it's one extra thing to own, reversing a trailer is harder...
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Syonyk on August 17, 2015, 07:40:46 PM
And insurance may give you some problems if you get into a crash with a vehicle that has no tow rating while towing...

I guess, don't crash?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: MoonShadow on August 17, 2015, 08:13:33 PM
And insurance may give you some problems if you get into a crash with a vehicle that has no tow rating while towing...

Such a thing doesn't exist that can actually get onto a freeway.  Every vehicle has a 'tow rating', even if it's the lowest possible.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: JLee on August 17, 2015, 09:32:19 PM
And insurance may give you some problems if you get into a crash with a vehicle that has no tow rating while towing...

Such a thing doesn't exist that can actually get onto a freeway.  Every vehicle has a 'tow rating', even if it's the lowest possible.

If by 'lowest possible' you mean zero, then yes. :)

http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-as-a-tow-car.91176/
Quote
http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-as-a-tow-car.91176/
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Syonyk on August 17, 2015, 09:59:01 PM
The Prius has no tow rating.

For that matter, even the much loved Honda Fit isn't designed for towing.

http://www.edmunds.com/honda/fit/2009/long-term-road-test/2009-honda-fit-sport-what-the-manual-says-about-towing.html
Quote
Here is what the 2009 Honda Fit owner's manual has to say about that: "Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can void your warranties."

You can stick a hitch on, mostly designed for bike racks & such, but if you do tow a trailer, you're outside the manufacturer recommendations, and if you have an accident while towing, your insurance company might pay attention.  The warranty issue is probably less of a problem since most people here don't own new enough vehicles for it to really matter, but it's worth considering that a vehicle not designed to tow isn't going to have brakes or transmission coolers suited to towing.

And, a lot of it depends on what you're towing where.  Iowa?  Illinois?  Kansas?  Yeah, you'll probably be fine towing something from Home Depot to your house.  New Mexico?  Colorado?  Northern Idaho?  Touring with a camper?  The mountains make it a whole lot more demanding, and you probably don't want to tow up at or above the vehicle's tow rating without some serious thought or modifications.

That's not even getting into the big stuff.  5th wheel setups exist for a variety of reasons, most of them very good.  Towing a 10k lb trailer on a Class 2 hitch can be done, but you're really better off with a 5th wheel setup at that point.  And if you are towing that heavy, it's a good time to consider your transmission cooler (and temp gauges), your brakes, engine brakes, etc.  Speaking of, I need to order some cryo treated rotors...
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: BeerBeard on August 18, 2015, 11:53:56 AM
I traded a firearm for my truck, it's a 2000 Chevy 1500 4x4 single cab with an 8ft bed and a cap. I used blood sweat and cuss words to replace the starter, fuel pump, every single brake line, plugs/wires, door hinges, door handle, hood pop cable, trans shift cable, shift solenoids, rear differential cover, shocks,  mass air flow sensor....   I'm sure I'm missing a few. Parts on this thing are cheap as hell. I'm a little over $2200 into it.

I use it only when I need to, but I have four siblings and a lot of friends, when they need to use it they know where it's at. It hasn't saved me money, but it's saved my extended family money as a whole.

I had another gun I got for $190 cause it was broke, I fixed it and traded it for a 8ft truck bed camper. At lest now I'll save about $80 every time I go hunting, which will cover the minimal insurance cost and the $84 a year to keep it registered.

And every-time someone borrows it, they fill the near 40 gallon tank for me, not that I even ask them to.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Guses on August 19, 2015, 10:58:38 AM
I was in an accident with it once, v. a kia sportage, and I'm pretty convinced I walked away unscathed due to it's size.  Even though it is a small-mid sized truck, it is solid.  I'm not sure I would have been so lucky in the matrix.  the kia was a mess.

Do you ever think that maybe the kia looked the way it did because it hit (or vice versa; irrelevant) a 4,000 lbs behemoth instead of a cute little Smart? Imagine how it would have been if the other person had been driving a dump truck. Makes you wonder if you really should be advocating bigger vehicles for "safety".

Also, smaller cars are made with a bunch of crumple zones so that they get dismantled from even a fairly low speed collision. This, in turn, protects the occupants.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: sixup on August 19, 2015, 11:23:46 AM
I drive a bulldozer, for safety. Gets 4mpg but I need the safety. Worth it!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: JLee on August 19, 2015, 03:52:48 PM
I was in an accident with it once, v. a kia sportage, and I'm pretty convinced I walked away unscathed due to it's size.  Even though it is a small-mid sized truck, it is solid.  I'm not sure I would have been so lucky in the matrix.  the kia was a mess.

Do you ever think that maybe the kia looked the way it did because it hit (or vice versa; irrelevant) a 4,000 lbs behemoth instead of a cute little Smart? Imagine how it would have been if the other person had been driving a dump truck. Makes you wonder if you really should be advocating bigger vehicles for "safety".

Also, smaller cars are made with a bunch of crumple zones so that they get dismantled from even a fairly low speed collision. This, in turn, protects the occupants.

So are trucks - absorbing energy within the vehicle chassis is a huge factor in keeping the occupants safe. I understand that weight differential is also a factor, but don't imply that trucks don't have crumple zones. That's factually incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8VVyGgsExs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CytDEWE8XqY

I like watching crash test videos...I might be odd. :P
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: BCBiker on August 19, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
I drive a bulldozer, for safety. Gets 4mpg but I need the safety. Worth it!

I prefer a freight train or an oil tanker, depending on my mood...
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: sixup on August 19, 2015, 05:21:46 PM
I drive a bulldozer, for safety. Gets 4mpg but I need the safety. Worth it!

I prefer a freight train or an oil tanker, depending on my mood...

Hey if that's what makes you happy. We all have our thing. Some of us have Gym Memberships!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Retire-Canada on August 19, 2015, 05:23:44 PM

Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

Nope. The worst thing you can ever do for this planet is have a baby human. I'm not joking or trolling. It's simply a fact.

If someone pedalling a cargo bike hauling their 3 kids drives by a guy in an F150 and feels environmentally superior they really have no clue.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: ender on August 19, 2015, 06:51:52 PM

Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

Nope. The worst thing you can ever do for this planet is have a baby human. I'm not joking or trolling. It's simply a fact.

If someone pedalling a cargo bike hauling their 3 kids drives by a guy in an F150 and feels environmentally superior they really have no clue.


citation needed?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 19, 2015, 07:09:44 PM

Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

Nope. The worst thing you can ever do for this planet is have a baby human. I'm not joking or trolling. It's simply a fact.

If someone pedalling a cargo bike hauling their 3 kids drives by a guy in an F150 and feels environmentally superior they really have no clue.


citation needed?

Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

Sad but true, I think. My wife justifies it with 'we need more people like us' but actually I think pop needs to halve or more. And yes, I have a child, and yes she's wonderful (and yes, I'm biased), and no in the grand scheme of things I don't think, environmentally, it was wise having her.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: sixup on August 19, 2015, 08:04:26 PM
Meh. Humans are probably going to be here for a while. So might as well make good ones that are going to have potential to make things overall better for everyone.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 20, 2015, 06:26:15 AM

Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

Nope. The worst thing you can ever do for this planet is have a baby human. I'm not joking or trolling. It's simply a fact.

If someone pedalling a cargo bike hauling their 3 kids drives by a guy in an F150 and feels environmentally superior they really have no clue.


citation needed?

Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

Sad but true, I think. My wife justifies it with 'we need more people like us' but actually I think pop needs to halve or more. And yes, I have a child, and yes she's wonderful (and yes, I'm biased), and no in the grand scheme of things I don't think, environmentally, it was wise having her.

Sigh.

When each couple has a single child, that's a pretty effective way to halve a population in a single generation.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: bsmith on August 20, 2015, 07:28:49 AM
Quote
When each couple has a single child, that's a pretty effective way to halve a population in a single generation.

No. That's not how demography works. Parents don't die when children are born, and neither do grandparents or great grandparents.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 20, 2015, 09:12:03 AM
Sure, but they do die.  Any many couples will be unable to conceive.  And many people will die from accidental causes.  I bet that if you convinced every woman in the US to conceive only a single child, within 60 years the population (excluding immigration) would be about halved.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Syonyk on August 20, 2015, 10:09:22 AM
That's not a great idea given our current economic system and assumptions.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: boarder42 on August 20, 2015, 10:22:29 AM
it is how demographics work over time.  If everyone for the next 1MM years only had one child population would decrease til it didnt exist anymore.  doesnt matter how many older people are alive....

100k people make 50k kids... those 50k kids make 25k kids... those 25k kids make 12.5k kids.  lets say everyone is still alive in this situation = 187.5k

now lets kill off the oldest with the creation of the next generation

87.5k + 6.25K leaves 93.75 humans left alive.  after 4 generations of controlled births there are less humans alive than started the next generation will leave less than half

37.5k +3.125 ~40k

it works you just have to start with the child bearing generation and not care about the older ones.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Guses on August 20, 2015, 11:18:46 AM

Not even tons of kids...even one.  Population does not need to go up or stay the same.  It is arguable it should go down.

Can anyone think of a more environmentally irresponsible action then adding another person to the planet?

Nope. The worst thing you can ever do for this planet is have a baby human. I'm not joking or trolling. It's simply a fact.

If someone pedalling a cargo bike hauling their 3 kids drives by a guy in an F150 and feels environmentally superior they really have no clue.

Let's push this "fact" to it's logical conclusion:

Having a baby is bad for the environment.
A baby is a human being.
Removing a human being from the planet is good for the environment.
...

You don't have the moral high ground here, by virtue of your simple "fact", you would need to stop being alive in order to be good to the environment.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Greg on August 20, 2015, 11:21:47 AM
RE: the original question, I don't know but yesterday I saw the best example of a face-punch-worthy truck.  It was some sort of Ford I think, not sure on that.  It was tall, short and "off road" maybe in model name even but looked like it has never and would never actually go off road.  The cab was extra long, so it sat 4 or 6 people, the bed was super short, not even sure it was 5'.  The thing was so tall, and the nose so square, that the driver (who looked short) couldn't see the road for probably 20' in front of the truck.  Sitting in my Vanagon, I was eye-level with the center of the grill.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: LoneWolfstache on August 20, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
Here's the thing:

Many of us went to high school with those douchebags with the lifted trucks. Where are they now? Still in that same small town with nothing to show for their shitty lives of poor choices. As for me, yes I drive a truck...it's sentimental  waaah waaah yea ya i know. '95 chevy silerado, old truck with not so great fuel economy. I grew up on a farm, been working hard since I was 5 years old, I EARNED that farm truck, didn't pay for it; costs me fuel, registration, insurance and maintinance only. I use it to haul my dirt bike and quad I've been riding for 13 years .....waaaah waaaaahh oh im sooooo bad burning all that gas....on the rare occasion maybe like twice a year. Otherwise im biking to work, working out, doing parkour and enjoying the ambience of nature in my backyard most of the time...oh and of course making tomahawk style cleaving payments towards my students loans so I can invest into index funds so I can retire  in 5 years (optimistic) 7 years (realistic) 10 years (maximum working time or I'll kill muself cuz I've worked enough hours in my young life that most people never do in their whole lives). I'm over it. As for my truck?? I'm going to run that thing into the ground before I'm compelled to purchase an economical used car, manual-hatchback style, then tow the toys with a trailer. I gotta draw the line somewhere when it comes to getting my adrenaline fix MMM. One day I'll get into wingsuiting, then I'll no longer need the car or the bikes cuz I'll be flying around in the clouds searching for soulmate angel when I'm retired.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 20, 2015, 01:33:31 PM
Check out this hyper-miler... do you think he's mustacian?  Using a truck the "proper" way? lol

http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-efficiency-upgrades/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-efficiency-upgrades/?ALLSTEPS)
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: forward on August 20, 2015, 02:02:42 PM
Check out this hyper-miler... do you think he's mustacian?  Using a truck the "proper" way? lol

http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-efficiency-upgrades/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-efficiency-upgrades/?ALLSTEPS)

I think thats Bakari's rig, he's a long time contributor here.  He does know how to use a truck.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 20, 2015, 05:10:12 PM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: daverobev on August 20, 2015, 06:03:10 PM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 20, 2015, 06:27:05 PM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.

No one knows that for sure. NASA is taking measurements and can't tell, so anyone who claims it's getting thinner is just making that up:

"We have a good handle of the extent of the Antarctic sea ice, but the thickness has been the missing piece to monitor the sea ice mass balance”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: MoonShadow on August 20, 2015, 06:40:38 PM
Here's the thing:

Many of us went to high school with those douchebags with the lifted trucks. Where are they now? Still in that same small town with nothing to show for their shitty lives of poor choices.

That's not universally true.  The 'gearhead' I knew in school went on in life to make a profession out of collector car restorations.  He restored a wrecked '69 Dodge Charger Limited with a 440 big block that he found in a junkyard while going to high school, and sold it for $30K+ more than he had into it to pay for college, which he dropped out of to restore cars for a living.  He was also the only person I have ever met that owned his own car, with his own money, at the age of 14.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: LanceThrustington on August 20, 2015, 06:45:06 PM
I made a huge post with facts and figures but it became a bit TLDR

to summarise. I bought a "truck" 4x4 dual cab diesel new in aus for  21k USD . it averages 26mpg in a super hilly area moslty in traffic :(
was an impusle decision and I wish I bought a 5 year old one for half the price. but I would certainly buy a truck again as I use the load capacity weekly

the main cost is depreciation atm, followed by rego insurance and maintenance. fuel cost for 10,000 mile per year is $1250 USD

if i bought an equivalently priced super efficient new car that got  36 mpg in stop start hilly traffic. I would save 5% of the total anual costs
(while depreciation is still high). or $347

buying an expensive new car is a bad choice. trucks are not always that much worse than more fuel efficient cars particularly when you get a smaller diesel one.

as a side note.  i have picked up about $700 worth of "free" wood from arborists in my ute in the last 3 weeks for next years heating.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Fuman on August 21, 2015, 03:52:19 AM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.

No one knows that for sure. NASA is taking measurements and can't tell, so anyone who claims it's getting thinner is just making that up:

"We have a good handle of the extent of the Antarctic sea ice, but the thickness has been the missing piece to monitor the sea ice mass balance”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html

Hey Music Lover,
I've been working in Antarctica off-and-on for the last 20 years and I know for sure.  It's getting warmer.  The ice is thinning. 
I'm in Christchurch right now waiting on a plane to take me to the ice once again.  I'll let you know what I see when I get there.  However, every year since '94 when I first went down, it's been getting warmer.   McMurdo pot holes used to be ice just 20 years ago, now little creeks run down the roads in the summer time.  I don't expect that has changed since last year.
Wake up.  Look around you.  Forrest fires are burning hotter, temps are warming, droughts are getting more extreme. 
Pull your head out.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 21, 2015, 06:46:15 AM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.

No one knows that for sure. NASA is taking measurements and can't tell, so anyone who claims it's getting thinner is just making that up:

"We have a good handle of the extent of the Antarctic sea ice, but the thickness has been the missing piece to monitor the sea ice mass balance”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html

Hey Music Lover,
I've been working in Antarctica off-and-on for the last 20 years and I know for sure.  It's getting warmer.  The ice is thinning. 
I'm in Christchurch right now waiting on a plane to take me to the ice once again.  I'll let you know what I see when I get there.  However, every year since '94 when I first went down, it's been getting warmer.   McMurdo pot holes used to be ice just 20 years ago, now little creeks run down the roads in the summer time.  I don't expect that has changed since last year.
Wake up.  Look around you.  Forrest fires are burning hotter, temps are warming, droughts are getting more extreme. 
Pull your head out.

The actual temperature data refutes your claims, so it's not my head that needs pulling out, it's yours:

"temperature trends in the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica over the period 1986 to 2000, reporting a phenomenal cooling rate of approximately 0.7°C per decade. This dramatic rate of cooling, as they describe it, "reflects longer term continental Antarctic cooling between 1966 and 2000."

"since 1979, finding that for all of Antarctica, temperatures had declined by 0.08°C and 0.42°C per decade, respectively. And in a contemporary study, Thompson and Solomon (2002) also reported a cooling trend for the interior of Antarctica."

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/historical-temperature-trends-in-antarctica/

More here:

"Continental Antarctic cooling, especially the seasonality of cooling, poses challenges to models of climate and ecosystem change."

"The Vostok base shows light cooling from 1979-1998, while the Amundson-Scott station shows cooling in all seasons, with a decrease of 0.17C per decade"

"Of the 22 long-term stations on the continent, 13 showed temperature decreases, and only 9 showed increases"

"Conclusion: While climate models suggest that temperatures in Antarctica should have been warming in recent decades due to increased greenhouse gases, measurements show otherwise."

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/antarctica_white_paper_final.pdf
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: DeltaBond on August 21, 2015, 07:37:05 AM
Check out this hyper-miler... do you think he's mustacian?  Using a truck the "proper" way? lol

http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-efficiency-upgrades/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-efficiency-upgrades/?ALLSTEPS)

I think thats Bakari's rig, he's a long time contributor here.  He does know how to use a truck.

Ha, my husband half expected him to be a Mustachian!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Fuman on August 21, 2015, 11:36:19 AM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.

No one knows that for sure. NASA is taking measurements and can't tell, so anyone who claims it's getting thinner is just making that up:

"We have a good handle of the extent of the Antarctic sea ice, but the thickness has been the missing piece to monitor the sea ice mass balance”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html

Hey Music Lover,
I've been working in Antarctica off-and-on for the last 20 years and I know for sure.  It's getting warmer.  The ice is thinning. 
I'm in Christchurch right now waiting on a plane to take me to the ice once again.  I'll let you know what I see when I get there.  However, every year since '94 when I first went down, it's been getting warmer.   McMurdo pot holes used to be ice just 20 years ago, now little creeks run down the roads in the summer time.  I don't expect that has changed since last year.
Wake up.  Look around you.  Forrest fires are burning hotter, temps are warming, droughts are getting more extreme. 
Pull your head out.

The actual temperature data refutes your claims, so it's not my head that needs pulling out, it's yours:

"temperature trends in the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica over the period 1986 to 2000, reporting a phenomenal cooling rate of approximately 0.7°C per decade. This dramatic rate of cooling, as they describe it, "reflects longer term continental Antarctic cooling between 1966 and 2000."

"since 1979, finding that for all of Antarctica, temperatures had declined by 0.08°C and 0.42°C per decade, respectively. And in a contemporary study, Thompson and Solomon (2002) also reported a cooling trend for the interior of Antarctica."

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/historical-temperature-trends-in-antarctica/

More here:

"Continental Antarctic cooling, especially the seasonality of cooling, poses challenges to models of climate and ecosystem change."

"The Vostok base shows light cooling from 1979-1998, while the Amundson-Scott station shows cooling in all seasons, with a decrease of 0.17C per decade"

"Of the 22 long-term stations on the continent, 13 showed temperature decreases, and only 9 showed increases"

"Conclusion: While climate models suggest that temperatures in Antarctica should have been warming in recent decades due to increased greenhouse gases, measurements show otherwise."

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/antarctica_white_paper_final.pdf

HAHAHAHA!
That's good stuff, Music Lover!  Did you pull those links off of the Fox News site?  I could post links that "prove" that the Holocaust never happened but I'm not going to waste everyone's time.  When it comes to climate change - warming in Antarctica - I prefer to believe my own eyes.
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 21, 2015, 12:01:35 PM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.

No one knows that for sure. NASA is taking measurements and can't tell, so anyone who claims it's getting thinner is just making that up:

"We have a good handle of the extent of the Antarctic sea ice, but the thickness has been the missing piece to monitor the sea ice mass balance”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html

Hey Music Lover,
I've been working in Antarctica off-and-on for the last 20 years and I know for sure.  It's getting warmer.  The ice is thinning. 
I'm in Christchurch right now waiting on a plane to take me to the ice once again.  I'll let you know what I see when I get there.  However, every year since '94 when I first went down, it's been getting warmer.   McMurdo pot holes used to be ice just 20 years ago, now little creeks run down the roads in the summer time.  I don't expect that has changed since last year.
Wake up.  Look around you.  Forrest fires are burning hotter, temps are warming, droughts are getting more extreme. 
Pull your head out.

The actual temperature data refutes your claims, so it's not my head that needs pulling out, it's yours:

"temperature trends in the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica over the period 1986 to 2000, reporting a phenomenal cooling rate of approximately 0.7°C per decade. This dramatic rate of cooling, as they describe it, "reflects longer term continental Antarctic cooling between 1966 and 2000."

"since 1979, finding that for all of Antarctica, temperatures had declined by 0.08°C and 0.42°C per decade, respectively. And in a contemporary study, Thompson and Solomon (2002) also reported a cooling trend for the interior of Antarctica."

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/historical-temperature-trends-in-antarctica/

More here:

"Continental Antarctic cooling, especially the seasonality of cooling, poses challenges to models of climate and ecosystem change."

"The Vostok base shows light cooling from 1979-1998, while the Amundson-Scott station shows cooling in all seasons, with a decrease of 0.17C per decade"

"Of the 22 long-term stations on the continent, 13 showed temperature decreases, and only 9 showed increases"

"Conclusion: While climate models suggest that temperatures in Antarctica should have been warming in recent decades due to increased greenhouse gases, measurements show otherwise."

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/antarctica_white_paper_final.pdf

HAHAHAHA!
That's good stuff, Music Lover!  Did you pull those links off of the Fox News site?  I could post links that "prove" that the Holocaust never happened but I'm not going to waste everyone's time.  When it comes to climate change - warming in Antarctica - I prefer to believe my own eyes.

NASA and ScienceMag are like Fox News? Please back away from the crack pipe...

I won't waste my time trying to discuss with a warmunist...your mine is made up and facts are irrelevant. Have a nice day.

Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 21, 2015, 12:13:08 PM
Check the various reports on ice loss, extinction rate in the last couple of hundred years, etc.

"On Sept. 19 this year, for the first time ever since 1979, Antarctic sea ice extent exceeded 7.72 million square miles (20 million square kilometers), according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. The ice extent stayed above this benchmark extent for several days. The average maximum extent between 1981 and 2010 was 7.23 million square miles (18.72 million square kilometers)."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

"Antarctic researchers ponder challenges posed by increasing sea ice"

http://news.sciencemag.org/climate/2015/05/antarctic-researchers-ponder-challenges-posed-increasing-sea-ice

Thin, surface ice is not the same as thick glacial ice. The total volume of ice is decreasing.

No one knows that for sure. NASA is taking measurements and can't tell, so anyone who claims it's getting thinner is just making that up:

"We have a good handle of the extent of the Antarctic sea ice, but the thickness has been the missing piece to monitor the sea ice mass balance”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/arctic-antarctic-ice.html

Hey Music Lover,
I've been working in Antarctica off-and-on for the last 20 years and I know for sure.  It's getting warmer.  The ice is thinning. 
I'm in Christchurch right now waiting on a plane to take me to the ice once again.  I'll let you know what I see when I get there.  However, every year since '94 when I first went down, it's been getting warmer.   McMurdo pot holes used to be ice just 20 years ago, now little creeks run down the roads in the summer time.  I don't expect that has changed since last year.
Wake up.  Look around you.  Forrest fires are burning hotter, temps are warming, droughts are getting more extreme. 
Pull your head out.

The actual temperature data refutes your claims, so it's not my head that needs pulling out, it's yours:

"temperature trends in the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica over the period 1986 to 2000, reporting a phenomenal cooling rate of approximately 0.7°C per decade. This dramatic rate of cooling, as they describe it, "reflects longer term continental Antarctic cooling between 1966 and 2000."

"since 1979, finding that for all of Antarctica, temperatures had declined by 0.08°C and 0.42°C per decade, respectively. And in a contemporary study, Thompson and Solomon (2002) also reported a cooling trend for the interior of Antarctica."

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/historical-temperature-trends-in-antarctica/

More here:

"Continental Antarctic cooling, especially the seasonality of cooling, poses challenges to models of climate and ecosystem change."

"The Vostok base shows light cooling from 1979-1998, while the Amundson-Scott station shows cooling in all seasons, with a decrease of 0.17C per decade"

"Of the 22 long-term stations on the continent, 13 showed temperature decreases, and only 9 showed increases"

"Conclusion: While climate models suggest that temperatures in Antarctica should have been warming in recent decades due to increased greenhouse gases, measurements show otherwise."

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/antarctica_white_paper_final.pdf

HAHAHAHA!
That's good stuff, Music Lover!  Did you pull those links off of the Fox News site?  I could post links that "prove" that the Holocaust never happened but I'm not going to waste everyone's time.  When it comes to climate change - warming in Antarctica - I prefer to believe my own eyes.

NASA and ScienceMag are like Fox News? Please back away from the crack pipe...

I won't waste my time trying to discuss with a warmunist...your mine is made up and facts are irrelevant. Have a nice day.

NASA?

http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/land-ice/ (http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/land-ice/)

Quote
Data from NASA's Grace satellites show that the land ice sheets in both Antarctica and Greenland are losing mass. The continent of Antarctica has been losing about 134 billion metric tons of ice per year since 2002, while the Greenland ice sheet has been losing an estimated 287 billion metric tons per year.

^ You mean that NASA?
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Guses on August 21, 2015, 12:25:49 PM
C'mon GuitarStiv, we are only talking about a thousand billion metric tonne, nothing to be scared about. Clearly it's all a myth!
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: music lover on August 21, 2015, 02:58:01 PM
C'mon GuitarStiv, we are only talking about a thousand billion metric tonne, nothing to be scared about. Clearly it's all a myth!

Don't worry...all they need is more money from the masses and they will magically "fix" the planet's temperature. :)
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: ender on August 22, 2015, 06:57:24 PM
Realistically, both you can be correct, NASA is only charting from 2002 on and Fuman was referring to the Antarctic (not the Arctic).
Title: Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
Post by: Syonyk on August 22, 2015, 08:52:58 PM
And in reality, nothing is going to affect carbon emissions short of running out of accessible carbon to burn, so if you care about the planet, do your best to trigger full on economic collapse.  Or accept that we're going to have to deal with the consequences of pretty much all burnable carbon being burned, and start preparing for that future.