Author Topic: Why do we bash on trucks?  (Read 34755 times)

SwordGuy

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2015, 08:52:40 PM »

Nice cherry picking. Why don't you compare a $15,000 base model truck to a $60,000 car?

The people who buy a $60k truck would buy a $60k car if not a truck. The people who would buy a $15k sedan would buy a $15k truck, not a $60k truck.

I went to a local Ford dealer's website and the lowest priced new Ford truck they had for sale was $25,000.  Most were over $30K and lots were in the $40K+ price range.   They had a new sedan for $15,000.   

No cherry picking involved.   There might even have been cheaper sedans on that site, I quit when I looked up the first sedan model and found that price.

Incidentally, that $25K was an F-150.  I don't see many of those around town, I see far more of the expensive models.

BCBiker

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2015, 09:02:16 PM »
I love that my thread inspired this Spinoff thread. Let's call this thread Fraser and mine Cheers! :)

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-will-replace-trucks-as-the-next-dumb-purchase/


Anyway, to answer OP's question I will make a list.

1. It is a total consumer sucka product. If you watch television (which I rarely do), you will see approximately 10 commercials per hour with trucks being driven off road and a very masculine voice discussing the payload or other useless features that doesn't truly matter to the average user. Why do they want to sell these POS to us? Because they have huge margins (the only reason GM did not completely implode 7 years ago).  If you bought a new or even remotely new truck you were/are a consumer sucka.

2. As an everyday bicycle commuter, interacting with dozens of trucks per day, truck drivers are generally obnoxious drivers with an obvious personality differences from car drivers. As another poster suggested, often young immature douche bags.

3. As you said 90% of cases don't make financial sense. What makes it worse though is that 90% of people who think it makes financial sense, it actually doesn't.  People (including many on this thread) dramatically underestimate the cost of truck ownership versus a practical vehicle and dramatically overestimate the cost of renting the services that the truck allegedly is needed for. The comments about DIY is completely baseless.  I am building a 100 ft long, 4 ft high retaining wall. Cost to deliver 4 tons of stone: $80. Cost of owning a truck year round for this one job... $7000 plus. And that doesn't even consider it would take 4-5 trips to haul this stone which would probably cost $40-60 by itself just for fuel.

4. Depreciating asset with zero ROI for 99% of users. Construction company owners and farmers are the exception, not the rule.

5. Environmental disasters: no one is perfect in our society on this issue of course but what a blatant example of wastefulness. If you are commuting in a 12mpg truck 28 miles per day as opposed to a 50+ mpg car (or an infinite mpg bike ride like me), you are being wasteful.  There is no way to argue this.

6. I think it is sad. Many people are suckered into owning these horrible machine. They are often young, impressionable, and with no resources to spare. I base this on my observation of many of these trucks in very poor neighborhoods (see the thread mentioned above).

7. There are so many smarter alternatives. By switching from a truck to an economical car, one can cut years (even decades) off of their FIRE date with exactly zero life-style implications. Its like switching from AT&T to Airvoice on a 10-20X scale. All you have to do is realize that all of your excuses for owning this truck are on unfounded premises.  Even if you have a boat or ATV that you use for recreation (I kind of understand this), you can often rent these for no more than $200-300 per day whereas that truck is costing you more unless you do these activities for 1 month plus per year. Another option is find a friend with a boat/truck, give him $500 for a week use. He will think you are crazy. You should no he is the crazy one for actually owning that crap.

There are probably more, but I think this is a good short list.

Truck primarily for personal use = anti-Mustachian

2Cent

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2015, 02:07:17 AM »
When people say things like: "In an accident, the truck wins" or "I love being able to see over the other cars. It's so much safer" I always think, do you realize your truck is having the exact opposite effect. Especially if it has darkened windows, you block everyone's view and your 3 tons are a safety hazard as others will lose in a crash.

I even hear some lady say she prefers to drive 500 meters to get her groceries as she doesn't like to walk through the pollution.

Besides that they are occupying more space in parking and on the road. The main reason to buy one is to feel bigger/richer. So it will make everyone else feel like they need to get the same size truck to be normal.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2015, 02:40:08 AM »
A truck can be Mustachian (ie: if it's an older smaller one used for a side hustle to generate income), or very much anti-Mustachian (a $60,000 luxo monster that's used to commute to an office job).

If someone spends $60,000 of the bank's money on something which depreciates rapidly, and where its full utility is used maybe 1% of the time, then of course it's deserving of a facepunch. That shit delays financial independence by years and years.

Nothing against trucks (or utes as they're called here), my dad had one for his business for a few years, and I actually quite liked the rugged simplicity of the thing. Vinyl seats and interior, four cylinder engine, manual transmission. Did the job perfectly well.

What we rail against here are excessively dumb financial decisions.

PeteD01

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2015, 03:23:27 AM »
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 03:26:41 AM by PeteD01 »

SwordGuy

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2015, 06:51:43 AM »
I'm sure there are lots of sports cars and muscle cars out there that are bought for very high price for nothing but performance and show that get even worse mpg than even a huge truck.  Again, why is no one trashing on those? 

The parking lots in my town aren't chock full of muscle cars and sports cars.  They are full to overflowing with extra big, extra glitzy, extra shiny trucks.   I see very few old trucks that show signs of actually being used to haul cargo.  That's why I bash on trucks as a stupid financial decision instead of the other options.   

It's for the same reason I don't bash on how stupid it is for people to die from eating too much in one setting - stupid as that would be - because it's just not a large scale problem... :)

A huge percentage of Americans approaching retirement age have less than 25,000 in savings.   That's terrible!

If someone purchased just one less 50,000 truck over their lifetime and replaced it with a 10,000 low mileage used car, they would have 40K to 50K in savings!   

The three biggest cost drivers for most folks on a track to retirement are housing, vehicles and medical.   Of the three, vehicles are the easiest to fix because almost everyone has 100% control over which type and price point of vehicle they choose.   (Yes some people are extra large or extra small, but MOST people are not. Ditto on health-related restrictions.)

You may need to live in an area because your elderly parents need taking care of and won't move.  You may need to live in an area because you can't afford to leave it or because it's where the jobs with your skillset are located.

You can control whether you get some medical illnesses but many are simply the bad luck of the draw.

Buying an inexpensive vehicle is an easy, easy, easy way to improve finances significantly.

Let's say I buy a vehicle every ten years, from 16 to 66.  That's six vehicles.   Lots of people buy way more often than that.

Let's assume we pay cash so there is no interest charges and that converting our savings into cash for the purchase didn't cost anything either.

6 vehicles times $10,000 equals $60,000.
6 vehicles times $40,000 (median price for new cars is around $33,000, and the glitzy trucks are on the higher end than many sedans) equals $240,000.

So, even assuming we put the savings in the mattress at 0% interest growth, and that both vehicles get the same mileage, and miraculously the insurance companies and license plate bureaus will charge the same fees (they won't!), we're still talking $180,000 in savings.  That's huge!  Especially considering all those folks with less than $25,000 in savings when they hit retirement!

Throw in 8 year financing for the expensive vehicles and some compounding on the savings and we're talking about an even bigger spread!

For almost everyone, buying the more expensive vehicle is an extremely foolish financial decision.

DeltaBond

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2015, 07:23:05 AM »
This is hilarious.  I see we have some trolls on here ;)  One of the things other threads have noted is that mustacians can be very critical if others aren't living their exact same frugal ways. 

Here's my favorite cyclist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI

Here's my favorite cyclist after buying a car (at 16:35) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqUCpJuolFY

And here is an article by Edmunds about the costs of powering electric cars, but not the cost of everything in regards to the car or overall environment impact... still might shed some light on this for those who aren't in the know: http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html

and another one on a price guide for electric cars http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080871_electric-car-price-guide-every-2012-2013-plug-in-car-with-specs  As you can see, they are not cheap on upfront costs. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:27:23 AM by DeltaBond »

shotgunwilly

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2015, 07:55:43 AM »
I'm sure there are lots of sports cars and muscle cars out there that are bought for very high price for nothing but performance and show that get even worse mpg than even a huge truck.  Again, why is no one trashing on those? 

The parking lots in my town aren't chock full of muscle cars and sports cars.  They are full to overflowing with extra big, extra glitzy, extra shiny trucks.   I see very few old trucks that show signs of actually being used to haul cargo.  That's why I bash on trucks as a stupid financial decision instead of the other options.   

It's for the same reason I don't bash on how stupid it is for people to die from eating too much in one setting - stupid as that would be - because it's just not a large scale problem... :)

A huge percentage of Americans approaching retirement age have less than 25,000 in savings.   That's terrible!

If someone purchased just one less 50,000 truck over their lifetime and replaced it with a 10,000 low mileage used car, they would have 40K to 50K in savings!   

The three biggest cost drivers for most folks on a track to retirement are housing, vehicles and medical.   Of the three, vehicles are the easiest to fix because almost everyone has 100% control over which type and price point of vehicle they choose.   (Yes some people are extra large or extra small, but MOST people are not. Ditto on health-related restrictions.)


They'd save even more if they choose not to have kids. Again... lifestyle choice.  To get on a forum and bash people for buying trucks is pointless.  Why don't I just start a thread making fun of all the "idiots" that spend thousands of dollars having kids.  But, I guess there is worse stuff on the internet. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:58:04 AM by shotgunwilly »

waffle

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2015, 08:44:05 AM »
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2015, 08:46:55 AM »
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.
You are wrong, he bashes people with what he calls McMansions, so he does bash those with huge castles as homes.

waffle

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2015, 08:52:44 AM »
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.
You are wrong, he bashes people with what he calls McMansions, so he does bash those with huge castles as homes.

I didn't say that he never addresses houses. He just doesn't spend much time on it. He set a good example on downsizing to more practical housing and talked about the extra funds he got as a result of it, but he definitely spends much more time bashing trucks and cars in general than he does housing.

Also it doesn't have to be a McMansion to be more house than is financially optimal.

boarder42

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2015, 09:01:40 AM »
selling a truck and down sizing is a much easier and faster move for many people.  if you notice he tries to come at it from the angle that will appeal to vast majority.  Its harder for some people to understand why their house is bad for being mustachian vs their vehicle. 

BCBiker

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2015, 09:25:49 AM »
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

I must admit that my shared hatred of big unnecessary vehicles does attract me to his blog more than other things.

There is a similarity between excessive housing and big trucks in that many people do not realize how bad of a financial decision their housing choice is. Often, people even think it is a good decision when it is not.

 I think, however, that unlike purchasing a BIG truck (ok. fine. owners of Ford Rangers and similarly sized truck are probably not in need of a Face Punch if they have some specific purpose and they bought it used and don't commute >20 miles per day), which is always a bad financial decision no matter how you try to justify it, purchasing a larger house than you need can occasionally be good.

I don't advocate for buy a huge house because it can always go both ways. But it is a leveraged potentially appreciating asset.  Thus if you buy a 2000 sq ft home in a rapidly appreciating market, you are going to be further ahead that if you by a 1200 sq ft home in the same markte.  Of course there are factors that negate these forces such as increase heating/cooling, tax and insurance costs of larger homes.  As MMM illustrates, there are ways to minimize these home expenses though. On the flip side, it is difficult to minimize the major expenses of a truck (depreciation, insurance, fuel).

Here is an example of how buying to big of a house could work in one's favor. I live in a reasonably sized townhome with 3 adults (spouse and elderly parent). If we had bought a house double the size of our current home across the street in a very ritzy neighborhood in 2010, paying maybe $100k more than our current home, we would now be sitting on $400-500k more equity than what we currently have. So perhaps that would have been a good decision. Hindsight is 20/20 or course.

Eric

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2015, 10:39:01 AM »
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

So you just want us to bash people with ridiculous housing choices more?  Challenge accepted! 

waffle

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2015, 11:12:41 AM »
My point in making this thread wasn't specifically to defend trucks. I do like trucks. I own one still. I don't like it as much as I liked my pre-mustachian brand new truck, but it serves my needs. Its a 2001 dodge with only 42,000 miles and was really cheap.

What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see. Nobody seems to bat an eye at 2000+ square feet houses for a small family when 1200 would do just fine and be much much cheaper. After all the comments so far I think its got a lot to do with MMM himself. He has been pretty relentless in bashing impractical vehicle purchases, but hasn't spent much time on housing.

So you just want us to bash people with ridiculous housing choices more?  Challenge accepted! 

Yup. I think its worthwhile to get some details about the situation before we jump in and face punch everyone that owns a truck or a large house (there are exceptions to every rule...), but If someone claims to want FIRE and they buy something they shouldn't have then there should be equal opportunity face punches for all.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 11:18:51 AM by waffle »

Guses

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2015, 11:20:58 AM »
There are still a lot of people, even on here, who don't DIY anything, so they don't see the need for a truck.  Even with less gas mileage and a payment, if you're using your truck to do things, you can very easily pay less in life just thanks to the cheaper costs of those DIY projects.  Insurance on his trucks combined is way less than on my 2014 Honda Accord.


Oh Pleeeeaaaase, come on! I am the kind of guy that DIY the heck out of everything that I can. In fact, I just hauled several tons of wooden beams for a project on my house. Do you know what I drive? This teeny tiny little hatchback!

Sure, I may have saved a few trips having a truck because I could have hauled everything in one trip, but saying that you need a truck to DIY is pure horse manure. Most cars can easily tow 800 pounds throught the addition of a 100$ class 1 hitch. BONUS: Most DIY places lend or loan trailers.

 


Guses

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2015, 11:22:47 AM »
True, electric is very dependent on which state you're in and how your state gets its power.  My state has so many rivers, it uses all hydroelectric power.  But if environment is all people are concerned about, the Prius is far from the greenest vehicle, just sayin.  The 70s Scout is the greenest vehicle, or one of those 70s suburban things, its surprising once you stop looking at a small part of the bigger picture... its the entire life of a vehicle, how long parts last, cost of making and discarding all those parts, to include batteries, and fuel mileage is only part of the cost of owning a vehicle.

If you just need something to hate, and a jerk was driving the truck, or whatever vehicle, that you felt insulted you on the road... well, haters gonna hate, but you won't win a 'trucks suck' argument with a DIYer.

I invite you to read this very informative post:

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2015, 11:31:01 AM »
Ok, Do-It-Yourselfer (DIY) truck owners, time to argue...

In the last year, my wife and I have renovated two houses. 

Would owning a truck be more convenient than our car for this purpose?  Of course.  Duh.

But owning my own private plane and airport, with my own staff of 24-7 aircrew so I can take a long-distance vacation without standing in line at the public airport would be more convenient, too.   It would also be ludicrously expensive for the value it provided me.

So, let's explore the following questions:

(1) Do I need a truck to renovate the houses, given that I need lots of sheet rock, plywood, 2x4s, 2x6s, 4x4s, etc.?

No, I do not.   If I have a really big order of materials, I can have Lowe's deliver it for about $80.
I might need that once per house, or maybe twice per house if there's a lot of work.  I'll wager that, with major repairs on two different houses this last year, I'm doing way more DIY work than most folks.

That's $160 to $320 for deliveries.   A roof rack (1 time cost) is less than $200.  That's less than a single monthly truck payment. 

(2) What is the relative cost difference between that and my sedan with a roof-rack?

I can buy a new Ford sedan for less than $15,000.   The typical truck in the parking lot at work is in the $40,000 to $60,000 price range.   That's 3 to 4 times as expensive.   A stripped down Ford truck is $25,000, which is $10,000 more than the sedan.

So, if I buy 30+ houses and fix them up I'll break even on the cash price of both vehicles.   Oh, yeah.  Cash price.  But most people finance so maybe that's more like 40+ houses...

I'm ignoring the extra insurance costs, and the extra gas costs too.   

Sorry, as a very active DIYer, buying a new truck instead of a new sedan makes zero sense.

+1

I fully renovated our large basement (drywall, flooring, plywood, lumber, electrical, plumbing, doors, etc.) by getting two large deliveries made . . . maybe a 70-80$ cost at the time.  As Guses said, it is a total myth that you need a truck to do heavy DIY stuff.

(I can fit sixteen eight foot long 2x4s in my corolla with no problems BTW).

(I have biked down to the local home depot with a friend, purchased a huge load of supplies, rented a truck, driven to my house and unloaded it, taken the truck back and then we biked home to get working . . . so you don't even need a car to do some heavy DIY home renos.)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 11:36:33 AM by GuitarStv »

Kaspian

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2015, 12:37:26 PM »
What I was trying to figure out is why trucks almost universally get a face punch but other things seem to mostly get a pass. Housing was the big one that I see.

Oh my fuck.  It's like arguing whether or not a wolverine makes a good pet.  Transporting 3 tons around (with nothing in the cargo) to carry one 200lb grown man is clown behaviour under any circumstance.  You need groceries?  You bike with your trailer.  Or, unless you're buying a side of butchered moose, you fill up the trunk of your Honda Fit.  MMM wrote a huge diatribe about how he did his major construction projects with a mini-van.  ...WITH. A. MINI-VAN.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 12:39:10 PM by Kaspian »

rulesofacquisition

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2015, 12:40:35 PM »
Wow, this got awfully heated, didn't it? I guess I can see both sides since I own a 3/4 ton 4x4 long bed, extended cab truck. It was ordered new (pre-mustache cultivation) completely stripped except AC, a trailer hitch, and higher rear end gears (no hills here). At the time I was towing horse trailers, and camping in remote areas, which meant driving on dirt roads or off road with the trailer. I got the long bed so a gooseneck trailer wouldn't put out the back window when I turned sharp. I got extended cab so 2 people could sleep in the truck (other people's loose horses tend to run through tents) and because it was also my dailer driver, and needed kid and grocery room. Not jacked up either, or loud exhaust, why would I want a tow vehicle with those liabilities? I still have it 12 years later (lost horses and farm) but it still hauls firewood, trash, construction material, etc. I do, however, have a company car, so the truck does sit. I do get a good laugh out of trucks with no trailer hitches or scratches in the bed. This one will be showing up shortly in my case study, so keep an eye out if you want to face punch me for still owning it.

Pav

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2015, 01:15:21 PM »
Three years ago, I bought a 1999 Ranger regular cab off of craigslist for $2000. It has served me well over the past three years of home renovations, salvation army runs to furnish said home, and helping in-law siblings move 2x. I figure, if I bought a cheap used fuel efficient car, and had rented a truck for those times I needed one, I'd be enough to close for me to not lose sleep over it.

I know I don't haul mulch, salt, and lumber on a daily basis that warrants the purchase, but I feel that I've gotten my money's worth out of it, even if it only gets close to 21 mpg.

DeltaBond

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2015, 01:21:32 PM »
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

You sound like a troll.

MoonShadow

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2015, 02:04:50 PM »
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

You sound like a troll.

Delta, you are a kind and thoughtful person, to put it so softly.

daverobev

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2015, 02:13:06 PM »
I've got a 2014 RAM1500 with a shell.  I'm also RE.

I've used it a TON this summer.  I've been to or through 21 states since March and I've put 16,000 trouble free miles on it during that time.  I haul the bike, the dog and the camping gear.  Sleeping for two in the back on a memory foam mattress is very comfy.  The truck is very safe and the ride is the most comfortable of any vehicle I've ever owned - even after driving 12 hrs per day. 

Soon it will be towing my refurbished travel-trailer and visiting all the national parks in the U.S.  I love the fucking thing!

If you don't like trucks then don't buy one.  If you are comfortable hauling your bicycles, dog, camping gear and also sleeping in your Prius, then knock yourself out.  I won't judge you for that.

MOST trucks are not used like this, though.

The post where someone had a truck as a third vehicle - makes perfect sense!

Sleeping in the back - ok, cool, not the most efficient (minivan might be better, but whatever).

Commuting with nothing in the bed? IT'S STUPID.

Also, flying is similarly bad. I do a transatlantic flight pretty much every year and I feel shitty about it because it basically negates all the commuting I don't do.

People getting defensive - I get it, nobody likes criticism. I'm a hypocrite - used to be vegetarian, organic, train and bike to work... I buy new and secondhand gadgets, I now buy cheap food because organic is so expensive in Canada, I own a Crown Vic which I love (though it does less than 5k km a year).

But what can you do. You can accept you're a really lucky fucker vs every metric, and try not to wreck the planet. Frugality and environmentalism go hand in hand.
So a Crown Vic with a 4.? V-8 is saving the planet? Maybe that's a hybrid Crown Vic :-)! I know I've read a lot of threads in these forums of members who have big old V-8 sedans and wagon, V-6 vans that get less than 20 mpg, or some newer very expensive Mustangs and the like Or that $100K plus Tesla!), yet we only seem to trash on trucks. Why is that?

As I said in another post - deflection. We don't own up to our own shittiness. "I changed my lightbulbs to CFL, I'm green!" "I recycle, I'm green!" "Oh look at that **** in his truck! Hahaha, off I go for 500 miles in my Civic/Matrix/Vibe".

There's no point defending myself to you because I don't defend myself to myself - I could cut my carbon emissions by 30-40% probably, by not flying. My car makes a miniscule amount because I drive it so little - and I drive carefully - but the fact I can tow with it is very useful.

Why do green/frugal people bash on trucks? Because MOST trucks are used poorly and are environmentally horrible (3x a Civic perhaps?)/financially horrible.

PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD WHO USE THEIR TRUCKS SENSIBLY: It's cool, the rest of the thread is not criticizing you! Do what you want!

People in massive houses - if that's what you want, again, cool! If you've got solar whatever, or live in a temperate climate, or have 17 children - do what you've got to do.

As Jesus, should he have existed etc etc etc, said - look for the whatsit in your own eye before worrying about the monster truck of the guy down the road.

boarder42

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2015, 04:44:02 PM »
I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

You sound like a troll.

Not a troll just don't see why people feel the need to try to get others to buy in on their life choices. Live your life find out what works for you and move on. If you need to compensate with a jacked up truck do it.

I'll bet 90% of this forum doesn't

1. Live biking distance or less to work
2 own one awesome fuel efficient car per family
3. Live in a house the exact right size for their needs
4. Use a close line to dry their clothes
5 . eat 95% of meals at home
6 .......

You get the point. Take what works bend it to your lifestyle choice. Crying about why people bash on something on here thats supid for 99% of Americans to own accomplishes what exactly. Nothing really.

If it takes a thread for you to get validation you're making the right choice doing something against the true blue ways of mustachianism. You probably shouldn't have whatever that thread is about BC there likely is a more cost effective work around.

JLee

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2015, 04:58:11 PM »
Big trucks are simply a status symbol screaming for attention.

There is no other reason to have a Ford F-150 raptor or god-forbid any lifted truck/SUV*.


* lifted truck: Maybe if you're a farmer or something. Even then it would ideally be smaller in size to have less chance of getting stuck. I know many of the massive trucks that off-road here end up needing to be rescued by the smaller non-monster trucks in muddy situations.

I can guarantee you have spent minimal to no time off road if you are universally decreeing a lifted truck to have no purpose. Perhaps we have different definitions of lifted in mind, but to me that means any height over stock.

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

This is just for you.

Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...

Fuel mileage isn't everything, see my above post.  Not all trucks are created equal, as well.


"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 05:01:22 PM by JLee »

music lover

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2015, 05:06:16 PM »
In most cases, a single person driving a empty min-van is no different than a single person driving a truck with an empty box. And, of course, the people dumping on the person with a truck probably don't know the length of their commute, what that person does with the truck when not commuting, or what their spouse may be driving for a longer commute.

I drive a Subaru 6 kilometers to work and get to listen to a smug greenie brag about her Prius...that she drives 45 kilometers to work. If I still had my Dodge Dakota (with an empty box most of the time), I'd still be using less fuel than she does.

boarder42

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2015, 05:30:48 PM »
In most cases, a single person driving a empty min-van is no different than a single person driving a truck with an empty box. And, of course, the people dumping on the person with a truck probably don't know the length of their commute, what that person does with the truck when not commuting, or what their spouse may be driving for a longer commute.

I drive a Subaru 6 kilometers to work and get to listen to a smug greenie brag about her Prius...that she drives 45 kilometers to work. If I still had my Dodge Dakota (with an empty box most of the time), I'd still be using less fuel than she does.

Why are you driving that distance at all is probably a better question.

boarder42

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2015, 05:32:20 PM »
Bottom line. Everything seen as a waste is bashed on here its the culture. It's what makes this site great its what pulls the complainy pants off people. 

Eric

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2015, 06:34:29 PM »
"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)

It's about the right tool for the job.  Using your jacked up truck for your daily 50 mile suburban commute is like using a sledgehammer to pound in your trim nails.  Are you really disputing that the vast, vast majority of people own a truck for uses that require no truck?  How many of those "Texas Edition" F-150s that cost at least $40k go off roading?  Most I see are so shiny without a scratch on them, that I'd bet the owners wouldn't even consider doing that for fear of getting their paint messed up.  Then they complain about gas prices, of course.

boarder42

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2015, 06:50:02 PM »
Big trucks are simply a status symbol screaming for attention.

There is no other reason to have a Ford F-150 raptor or god-forbid any lifted truck/SUV*.


* lifted truck: Maybe if you're a farmer or something. Even then it would ideally be smaller in size to have less chance of getting stuck. I know many of the massive trucks that off-road here end up needing to be rescued by the smaller non-monster trucks in muddy situations.

I can guarantee you have spent minimal to no time off road if you are universally decreeing a lifted truck to have no purpose. Perhaps we have different definitions of lifted in mind, but to me that means any height over stock.

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

This is just for you.

Especially if you get one of the newer more fuel efficient trucks.

That's quite a relative thing. Fuel efficient "for a truck" is hardly fuel efficient. My boss bought a brand new truck last year and was bragging about how he got "over 20mpg" on the highway. My truck driving coworkers were all astonished at how fuel efficient his truck was, meanwhile I'm just mentally comparing it to my Corolla's 50mpg on the highway and imagining all the money he's spending driving that thing 40 miles to work...

Fuel mileage isn't everything, see my above post.  Not all trucks are created equal, as well.


"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)

" truckness " like things. Yeah it's an expensive hobby regardless. Just like boats. I use a boat for "boatness" like things doesn't make it an acceptable thing on these forums.

Shit

May as well own your own rocket ship mortgaged to eternity BC you like space and use it for "rocketness" type things. Still won't make it acceptable on these forums.

I mean I can come up with great rocket ship excuses right now. 

1. I use it a ton its part of my life every weekend I go up to space on it
2. I still save 70+% of my salary even though I burn MM  in fuel and costs every weekend I go up.
3 how many people get to go to space in their life
4. When I go to space i stay out for weeks at a time and its the only vehicle that can get me there. I sleep there and have my own garden and bed its pretty much self sustaining.
5. You wouldn't understand BC its space and all you do is live on earth.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 06:55:00 PM by boarder42 »

Syonyk

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2015, 06:54:39 PM »
Because it's a popular group to hate on?  *shrug*

I've got a rather large truck, it gets mostly used to haul things, and at some point in the reasonably near future, tow a large 5th wheel camper while we tour the country homeschooling our kids.  It should literally last me the rest of my life if I take good care of it - under 100k miles on a 7.3 Powerstroke. ;)

Other than that, it sits around and irritates an HOA board member who has a tiny bit of power, since I bike to work.  Amusingly, while it bugs the hell out of some of the HOA people, all the people who live near me don't mind it, because I'll go ask them if they need stuff hauled when I'm doing a dump run, and I've helped various of them move things they needed moving.

It's still in the "a bit pricey" region of new-to-me maintenance, but it's nearly 20 years old, and parts are just large & a bit expensive.  As I intend to haul around the country with it, I don't mind spending money on high quality bits and pieces if something needs replacement.

Now, for fun, go ask how much some people have spent on their bicycles. :)

daverobev

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2015, 07:04:28 PM »
I wasn't asking you to defend yourself, just making a point that the Crown Vic can get worse gas mileage and be just as polluting as a big truck. People seeing you drive it don't know that you only drive a few thousand miles a year and that it isn't right to make a judgment call on your personal vehicle usage (or your character as a person) just because you have a Crown Vic. I probably drive my truck as much as you do (put about 60K miles on it over an 8 year period) and it's my only vehicle (although I do sometimes rent). But if it were a big truck, and it only get 17 mpg so really it doesn't matter the size, people would be trashing on me for my usage even though 80% of the time I ride my bike everywhere. But ...truck - bad no matter the circumstances. But mainly my point was why is it just trucks? Why not other vehicles? Someone above made the comment that MMM did his renovations using a mini van but even a newer mini van only averages about 20 mph - some newer ones like a Town and Country average 17 mpg and only 11 mpg in town,  - and all older vans are far worse. Even the small 4 cylinder Mazda 5 I rented for a month only got around 24 on average and much less around town (like 18 or so) far worse then even some of the newer big trucks. Same with some of the smaller 4 cylinder SUVs. So my point, like I believe the OPs point was, if you are going to car bash, car bash everything that is expensive & gets bad mpg.   And make sure the truck or giant SUV you are trashing isn't a hybrid or diesel getting better mpg than the average sedan. 

 MINIVANS Overall mpg = 19 or higher
average/city/highway
1 Ford Transit Connect XLT (2.5L) 21/ 15/ 27
2 Honda Odyssey 21/ 13/ 31
3 Toyota Sienna XLE (FWD) 20/ 14/ 27
4 Kia Sedona EX 20/ 13/ 28
5 Toyota Sienna XLE (AWD) 19/ 13/ 24
6 Nissan Quest SL 19/ 13/ 24

I'm from the UK. I could go off on a rant about how stupid automatic transmissions are, central forced air is, GMO is, the US Military is, Christianity is.

All of those things are stupid for some applications but just are the default. Trucks are the same. The reason this mostly North American forum rags on trucks is because they are a very visible stupidity, with a medium chance of being correct.

This is a 'community' of frugal people, and because we are human we tend toward the lowest common denominator. The truth is nearly 'it isn't that simple' but unless you can expound at length... well, nobody ain't got time fo' dat.

People can make changes to their lives to make them financially better off. Sometimes it's incremental, sometimes it can be revolutionary. Some people here can simply not see that THEIR truck is a hindrance to their finances. They may even be right!

But people are getting their backs up when people say "trucks" when what is meant is "inefficient use of resources".

"Trucks" is just a typically human bogeyman.

JLee

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2015, 07:30:32 PM »
"Fuel efficiency"?!  Nothing is efficient in driving a 3-ton machine around with only one passenger and an empty hold.  Nothing.  And that's how I see 99.5% of trucks these days.  Carrying 40 times your weight around needlessly is the same as going to a restaurant, ordering 40 meals, eating one, and throwing the rest in the garbage.  Why are you paying to haul all that extra weight around?

How much time do you spend offroad where you would have the opportunity to see a truck used for truck-ness-like-things? That'd be like Coco saying all he ever sees is trucks used for offroading. ;)

It's about the right tool for the job.  Using your jacked up truck for your daily 50 mile suburban commute is like using a sledgehammer to pound in your trim nails.  Are you really disputing that the vast, vast majority of people own a truck for uses that require no truck?  How many of those "Texas Edition" F-150s that cost at least $40k go off roading?  Most I see are so shiny without a scratch on them, that I'd bet the owners wouldn't even consider doing that for fear of getting their paint messed up.  Then they complain about gas prices, of course.

Of course not - I am disputing the general mindset of "there's absolutely no reason anybody should ever have one of these horrible creations."  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here.  Your experience and viewpoint may vary, but that doesn't mean it's the only one.

I would retire earlier if I didn't have an offroad vehicle. Or if I didn't have a car making 400hp. But then my life would be shittier, because that's what I love to do. Some people have kids. Some people have other hobbies. Blah blah.  It's all about priorities, amirite?

MoonShadow

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2015, 07:32:07 PM »
  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here. 

After all, what else is there to do on a Saturday night?  Cruise the Wal-mart parking lot?

JLee

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2015, 11:38:53 PM »
  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here. 

After all, what else is there to do on a Saturday night?  Cruise the Wal-mart parking lot?

Not sure if srs.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/01/26/phoenix-arizona-bucket-list/22363587/

MoonShadow

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2015, 12:25:56 AM »
  I live in the desert.  A lot of people go offroad out here. 

After all, what else is there to do on a Saturday night?  Cruise the Wal-mart parking lot?

Not sure if srs.

Not even a little bit.

firewalker

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2015, 01:02:30 AM »
Maybe cuz its easy? Like bashing the president. The POTUS is always on TV, in the news, with public speaches, plenty to make fun of. All the other politicians are just as bash-worthy but you have to look beyond primetime to see it.

worms

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2015, 01:30:47 AM »


I'm from the UK. I could go off on a rant about how stupid automatic transmissions are, central forced air is, GMO is, the US Military is, Christianity is.

"Trucks" is just a typically human bogeyman.

Lol!  This thread makes me want to get my 21 year-old Land Rover back on the road!

music lover

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2015, 08:17:23 AM »
In most cases, a single person driving a empty min-van is no different than a single person driving a truck with an empty box. And, of course, the people dumping on the person with a truck probably don't know the length of their commute, what that person does with the truck when not commuting, or what their spouse may be driving for a longer commute.

I drive a Subaru 6 kilometers to work and get to listen to a smug greenie brag about her Prius...that she drives 45 kilometers to work. If I still had my Dodge Dakota (with an empty box most of the time), I'd still be using less fuel than she does.

Why are you driving that distance at all is probably a better question.

Because 5k of the commute is on a dangerous highway with a gravel shoulder.
Because I don't like arriving at work sweaty or frozen.
Because I really don't like riding a bike that much.

It costs me less than $2 a day to drive to work, which is less than taking a bus. My commute takes 8-10 minutes. To me, the time saved and increased comfort is worth $2. There are other far more effective ways to save money.

music lover

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2015, 08:30:00 AM »
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Johnez

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2015, 08:32:24 AM »
90% of my workmates have trucks. Big trucks. They talk about "real trucks," lift kits, exhaust kits, light bars, etc. I find it hilarious and a big pointless waste of money. That is, if it was MY money.

To these guys, it makes em happy. More power to them. There are many here who have excessive tastes in other areas. Fine foods and fancy wines. Gadgets, pets, projects, and hobbies. Different things make different people happy.

I don't pass judgement anymore. I have a tank of fish, an air conditioner, and do go out and spend money at restaurants every now and then. Those be my vices, everyone's got 'em.

bsmith

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2015, 09:29:39 AM »
There's a difference between 1. people who buy fancy cars and trucks because they like to hang out with their friends and talk about them, or work on them, or go to drag races, or otherwise enjoy a subculture related to cars and 2. people who buy fancy cars and trucks because that's what they think they are supposed to do to be successful. The difference lies in belonging to a community versus being a mindless consumer sucka.

ender

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2015, 10:01:46 AM »
The reasons I bash trucks are because of the reasons people normally give for having them. I don't really mind if someone says, "I really don't need it, but I like it."

But when people say:

Quote
"I need to haul stuff"

My cheapo wagon is more useful for hauling most things than a big truck. And where my wagon fails, a fuel efficient minivan will dominate most trucks (especially for weather).

Short bed trucks are the worst, you need a topper to handle the seasons and the only advantage they normally provide is hauling REALLY weird shaped items (which again, a minivan probably does just as well).

A few people will at least haul dead animals in them, and at that point they finally use the bed (vs interior of a vehicle).

Quote
"I need to tow stuff"

Most people who come from this perspective don't actually tow stuff often if not ever. Owning a truck to tow something once a year is a waste of money.

Then, that is based on the assumption that non-trucks cannot tow. Plenty of vehicles have towing capacities too (my inlaws have a van that can tow a huge boat based on its capacity and my parents have a big conversion van that is basically a truck frame -- except a van, so it's useful for more than 2 people too and has way more space).

My dumb little wagon has a 900lb towing capacity. Am I going to pull a trailer around all the time with it, no, but if I need it once a year then why not?

Quote
"winter is scary!"

I don't know why drivers of 4WD vehicles like trucks/SUVs seem to think that somehow 4WD translates to magically being able to deal with ice, but... well they do.

There are benefits, sure, but it sure seems you see a high percentage of trucks/SUVs in the ditches in the winter. Why? Probably because their drivers don't get physics and forget that ice doesn't let you stop regardless of how many wheel drive you have.




PeteD01

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2015, 10:17:20 AM »
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I like your math, but you are using it to come up with a rationalization to support a particular preferred behavior. Once your numbers are used in light of current scientific evidence, the opposite behavior appears to be more advantageous. Avoiding 3000 hours of sitting, gaining five years of quality life at savings of 30k is as good at it can get in my book. It's the difference between rationalized behavior and rational behavior.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 10:43:40 AM by PeteD01 »

daverobev

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2015, 10:34:35 AM »
Yeah that's probably it. Something everyone sees everyday and it's in your face when other spendy and/or high polluting excesses aren't as visible.

I personally took the OPs post as not defending trucks as so many other's seemed to think it was, but asking why we bash on trucks specifically (I think everyone here, even us truck owners, know that they can be bash-worthy when compared to other forms of transportation) but why do we ONLY seem to bash trucks and not many other expensive, wasteful, and/or polluting things. Or why do we feel the need to personally trash the people' character who drive them but not those who do other things. Again, to use the cruise ship thread example, here's a bunch of people dropping thousands a year, year after year after year,  to fly to a destination, hop on a ginormous floating pollution factory of wasteful indulgences, and spend a couple of weeks cruising around in one of the most environmental damaging things out there (unless you are on a sailing vessel) yet no one is calling them fat, lazy, etc... because they aren't just tenting for free out in the wilderness. I think about MMM in terms of personal choice - for one person it's a truck, for another it's cruising (or whatever your luxury is) but for some reason the truck thing really riles people up and makes them spew a lot of personal negative judgment about a person's character in a way not too many other things do.

Cruises are awful, IMHO. The staff are treated terribly and get paid terribly.

music lover

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2015, 10:44:39 AM »
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I looked it up, so maybe you should, too?? Three or four 30 minute sessions of cardio a week is all one needs if it's done right. I'm interested in fitness and health, not endurance training.

The American Heart Association specifically states:

- At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

- At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity"

PeteD01

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2015, 11:42:33 AM »
unless you're spending 8+ hours a day in your car then i'd say you have crazy other antimustacian problems. 

lets do the math based on time used
say a 1 hour per day commute in a 30k car
vs a 12 hour day using your 300k house. 

im getting 12x the use fore 10x the price.  and its not a depreciating asset.  and i have to live somewhere so based on your 100k house price difference.  i'm getting 36x the use for 3x the price.

Try this:

Replace the 1 hour commute with 4-5 hours of bike riding. Over 12 years. 5 hours times 240 work days a year times 12 years = 15,000 hours. The equivalent car commute is about 3000 hours, a difference of 12,000 hours. 12,000 hours is equivalent to 6 years of full time work.

Would you work for 6 years for only $30k??

Interesting math.

Let me take this a little further:

15000 hours of bicycling in twelve years will save you 30k, could add five years to your life, will definitely turn you into an endurance athlete, and likely will improve your health related quality of life.

Commuting 3000 hours by car in twelve years will cost you 30k, is likely to result in shortened life expectancy, will result in increased BMI, will decrease health related quality of life as a consequence of a more sedentary lifestyle.

Just saying...

I'm already fit and get all the cardio I need in three or four 30 minute sessions a week. Why would I change that to 16-20 hours of bike riding for minimal gain?

Google the relevant research regarding bicycling and life expectancy, sedentary lifestyle and health related quality of life and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hint: an extra 3000 hours sitting time cannot be compensated for in any way we currently know and four 30 minutes sessions/week of aerobic exercise may prevent premature death of the typical couch potato from cardiovascular disease but does not have anywhere near the effect of bicycle commuting which may add five years of quality life, by decreasing all cause mortality, to the average life expectancy.

I looked it up, so maybe you should, too?? Three or four 30 minute sessions of cardio a week is all one needs if it's done right. I'm interested in fitness and health, not endurance training.

The American Heart Association specifically states:

- At least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity aerobic activity at least 5 days per week for a total of 150

OR

- At least 25 minutes of vigorous aerobic activity at least 3 days per week for a total of 75 minutes; or a combination of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity"

I'm aware of the recommendation and you are just repeating what I wrote in my last post. Your exercise regimen is what the American Heart Association recommends to the average couch potato to reduce their risk of succumbing to cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately, all cause mortality is much more important than lowering your risk for cardiovascular disease.

The most interesting thing about the recommendation is how little it is supposed to take to eliminate inactivity related risk factors from the cardiovascular risk profile. That alone makes it suspicious, but, I guess one can forgive the American Heart Association because all cause mortality is in large part outside their jurisdiction.

Here is my opinion: Two to three hours of moderate exercise a week as a way to counteract the effects of a sedentary lifestyle sounds way to good to be true. The underlying assumption is that it is possible to weigh a certain amount of exercise against a certain amount of inactivity and things will be fine. That idea is so 19th century that it makes me laugh. On a more serious note, there is no evidence that such a small amount of exercise can reduce all cause mortality and the American Heart Association has made no effort, that I know of, to publicize that.


« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 11:48:36 AM by PeteD01 »

Dicey

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2015, 12:01:08 PM »
DH has a 2002 Ford F150 Super Cab. He bought it new for 20K out the door. It now has 85,000 miles and KBB values it at $6150. It would probably sell for more because it has really nice Harley Davidson rims that he got a screaming deal on years ago ($200, thanks Craigslist) and is excellent condition. 

- He is a painting contractor by trade, so there's that. Of course it's white.
- He now works for a local utility and walks to work, so it's no longer an everyday driver.
- We use it all.the.time for hauling life's big stuff.
- We have a rental property eight hours away and occasionally use it to haul materials there, such as when we painted the exterior last year.
- It is surprisingly comfortable on a road trip.
- We just flipped a house locally and used the truck every single day.
- We don't drive it that much so gas mileage is fairly irrelevant.
- He also does his own repairs and maintenance, so minimal cost there.

Our truck has years of good life left in it. We don't anticipate needing another any time soon, but when the time comes, you can bet we'll be buying a truck again.
We are FI, partly because of DH's former side gig. And yeah, painting houses and big buildings requires the use of a truck.

Monster truck (to compensate for lack of height?) = laughably stupid (Feel free to keep bashing.)
Sensible truck to do work that leads to FI = mustachian all the way, baby! (FI for him, FIRE for me, freedom for both of us, hooray)

Finally, I love it because he looks good in it ;-).

sixup

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Re: Why do we bash on trucks?
« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2015, 12:10:26 PM »
In this case can it really be a "to each his own" kind of thing?

If too many people are thoughtlessly wasting resources it affects all of us. I think deep down this is what causes the negative reaction towards big truck drivers.

Sure we all produce waste, but at least be a little thoughtful about it. Some people see it as a badge of honor or something. "Yeah look at how big my truck is, it gets 8 mph hardy har, my peen must be hyooge, screw you hippies!"