Author Topic: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?  (Read 11838 times)

ThriftyMiss

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I'm a 59 yr old Canadian female, and although I only made about $40,000 a year, I am now set for life.  $500,000 in RRSP, $100,000 in TFSA, and $150,000 in non-registered.  I've always owned second hand cars...and I'm thinking it's time to treat myself!  I'm excitedly looking at spending $32,000 cash for brand new SUV, which still doesn't touch the investments listed.  Thoughts?  (...and I love my parttime job, so I still have $$ coming in...)

Dave1442397

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2020, 02:04:55 PM »
After the initial thrill of buying a new car wears off, you'll realize that the only difference between a new car and a lightly-used off-lease vehicle is that you're the one taking the big depreciation hit. Whatever SUV you're looking at, browse around (Autotempest.com is a handy site to search with) until you find a nice used one that has the features/colors you want  and go look at it. Compare it to the brand new version and see if you really care to pay the extra money just to be the first owner.

If that's the case, hey, it's your money, but I have to say that the used cars I've bought (all returned lease vehicles) have been like new. My current car still had the plastic from the manufacturer on the door sills, and still looks like a new car inside at ten years old.

Metalcat

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2020, 02:31:11 PM »
Are you really coming to the MMM forum asking permission to buy a new car?

I can't tell if you are looking for support for this decision or to be talked out of it.

You are a grown ass person who is obviously very good with your money. Do whatever works for you, you don't need our permission.

Enjoy the new car if you decide to buy it. Have fun.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 03:48:04 PM by Malcat »

Zikoris

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2020, 03:39:21 PM »
This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/04/its-never-too-late-to-ditch-your-gas-guzzler/

Cranky

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 03:53:27 PM »
I don’t think it’s mustachian, but we’re a 1 car family that has had bad luck with used cars, so I’m pretty keen on buying new. It’s worth it to us. YMMV.

Cranky

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 05:06:39 PM »
I’m pretty utilitarian about cars - I don’t understand the “treat yourself” part. It’s all about getting where you need to go, reliably.

markbike528CBX

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2020, 05:34:10 PM »
Awww, thank you for your excellent replies!  And you're right, I'm probably looking for "permission" because it's such a foreign concept to me to "indulge" myself and actually spend money!!  But I also look to my dear 93 year old Dad who never spent anything on himself, and who's locked in his care home because if covid, yet has over $1,000,000 in savings...that he can't spend.  :-(   And I want to learn from that example and balance saving with "treating myself"...
So thank you all so much for your replies.
All the best & Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow Canadian MMM's!
Thrifty Miss

A few well placed phone calls might get him "hookers and blow" to help spend that money.   
You might get asked questions about his various "nieces, granddaughters" and such the next time you visit though :-).

Being frugal has a real component of having excess money at the end of life. The key is happiness.  I'd rather "fail" on the rich side, but others are OK with the other side.
It is really hard to balance the budget to croak with exactly $1 (plus death expenses) at the end.

FWIW, I'd go with a just off-lease vehicle AND a comprehensive inspection or written warranty.   
Under no circumstances would I ever buy new, unless my disposable income was 4x my next year need+wants expenses.  Or I just wanted to spend it to spite my inheritors.

bacchi

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2020, 05:39:52 PM »
After the initial thrill of buying a new car wears off, you'll realize that the only difference between a new car and a lightly-used off-lease vehicle is that you're the one taking the big depreciation hit.

And the new car smell from the outgassing. Don't forget that.

Thankfully, there's a spray that can emulate that smell.

</s>

Metalcat

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 06:03:36 PM »
Again, it's really up to you if you think this is the best use of your money.

What I always advise is to ask yourself if this is the thing you would rather spend your money on more than anything else you could possibly imagine for the same premium?

If you want a new SUV more than anything else in the world that the added money could buy, then buy the new SUV.

Only you can decide if that's the case though. No one else's permission matters. Generally though, if you start looking for outside permission, it says something about what you are trying to talk yourself into.

norajean

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 08:10:33 PM »
Only is the SUV is a Toyota and you intend to drive for at least 20 years at under 5,000 miles per year.

SunnyDays

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 09:50:52 PM »
Well, I’m a 59 year old Canadian and have bought the only 2 cars I’ve ever owned brand new and have no regrets.  The first was a 1986 Toyota Corolla that I had for 16 years and I’ve had my current 2003 Toyota Matrix for almost 18 years and plan to keep it as long as possible.  I liked knowing the maintenance history (since I was in charge of all servicing) and took very good care of them both.  The lack of stress from not having breakdowns or unexpected problems was worth a premium to me.  I drove them for work also, so needed a reliable car.  However, I would never buy an SUV because I just don’t think they’re worth it and a large hatchback or small van is just as useful.

tawyer

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2020, 10:10:51 PM »
If you want a new SUV more than anything else in the world that the added money could buy, then buy the new SUV.
Please, no. The world really doesn't need the purchase of any more brand new SUVs.

OP, how about you buy the SUV used then donate the difference to that new one to action on climate change? I'll personally match you one penny on the dollar.

RetiredAt63

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 08:11:57 AM »
Well, I’m a 59 year old Canadian and have bought the only 2 cars I’ve ever owned brand new and have no regrets.  The first was a 1986 Toyota Corolla that I had for 16 years and I’ve had my current 2003 Toyota Matrix for almost 18 years and plan to keep it as long as possible.  I liked knowing the maintenance history (since I was in charge of all servicing) and took very good care of them both.  The lack of stress from not having breakdowns or unexpected problems was worth a premium to me.  I drove them for work also, so needed a reliable car.  However, I would never buy an SUV because I just don’t think they’re worth it and a large hatchback or small van is just as useful.

My present car is the best of both worlds.  It was a demo, so discounted price,  no hard driving.  I am meticulous about maintenance, it's now at 11 years and over 280,0000km and going strong.

If I knew I would want a particular car for only a few years I would buy used.  If I could do a lot of my own maintenance I would consider used. For a car I will keep "forever" I want to be the only driver and have been in charge of maintenance from the beginning.

ender

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 08:31:18 AM »
This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/04/its-never-too-late-to-ditch-your-gas-guzzler/

From this:

Quote
Reasonable fuel economy starts at 35MPG (US, highway), and much higher is possible.


fwiw, our small suv gets about this on the highway.

Now... if we're talking a fullsize SUV/truck sure they get terrible mileage but "suv" basically has no meaning now that manufacturers converted station wagons into "small SUVS" since those are apparently are way cooler to a lot of people than "station wagon." So you have station wagons in the same category as land yachts.

But of course, buying a small compact/sedan will certainly get you better mileage but a lot of small SUVs are into the 30 range already for highway mpg.

thesis

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 10:26:03 AM »
I've found that while treating yourself can be nice, and sometimes a very good thing, the effect will usually wear off. At some point that new car will just become a regular part of your life. And even when it's new, it's no guarantee it won't have problems, so you really have to do your research on the make and model, and maybe don't buy the first car in a new series or generation, as engineers are always changing things up to justify their existence, and they usually get it wrong on the first model that attempts to do something fancy and new (and usually unnecessary).

I think of it this way: a new/rebuilt engine or transmission costs about $4k. I'd rather pay that than watch a $30k vehicle lose $10k of value via depreciation over several years. I "treat" myself by putting quality components in a reliable, older car, and knowing those components won't need to be changed, probably ever again. But that's just me.

If you are going to treat yourself, maximize for satisfaction and value. The best treats are the ones that retain their value and make you happy in the long run. The not-so-great treats are the ones that are only temporary. That's not to say the rare donut is bad, but treats that don't have a lasting impact usually have better alternatives. Just a thought
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 10:50:38 AM by thesis »

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2020, 11:49:56 AM »
After the initial thrill of buying a new car wears off, you'll realize that the only difference between a new car and a lightly-used off-lease vehicle is that you're the one taking the big depreciation hit.
This is a largely false misconception that gets tossed around a lot here.
The depreciation rates you are quoting are based on the MSRP of a new vehicle.
No intelligent consumer is paying MSRP for a mainstream new vehicle.

I bought a new vehicle last year for ~$7,000 off MSRP.
Seven months and 5000 miles later, I got a Carvana quote for MORE than I paid for the car.

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 12:07:10 PM »
This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/04/its-never-too-late-to-ditch-your-gas-guzzler/
This post is nearly a decade old and largely irrelevant now.

Back in 2012, many (most?) "SUVs" were traditional truck-based body-on-frame SUVs with poor gas mileage.
Now, most SUVs are car-based unibody vehicles that are MUCH more efficient.

Many SUVs today have comparable gas mileage to their car counterparts.
Additionally, many automakers are abandoning traditional cars, making this article even more irrelevant.

Zikoris

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 12:18:02 PM »
This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/04/its-never-too-late-to-ditch-your-gas-guzzler/
This post is nearly a decade old and largely irrelevant now.

Back in 2012, many (most?) "SUVs" were traditional truck-based body-on-frame SUVs with poor gas mileage.
Now, most SUVs are car-based unibody vehicles that are MUCH more efficient.

Many SUVs today have comparable gas mileage to their car counterparts.
Additionally, many automakers are abandoning traditional cars, making this article even more irrelevant.

I haven't ever seen MMM say anything positive about SUVs in the last eight years since that was published. If anything, these days SUVs look even worse compared to the new alternative of zero gas vehicles, given that MMM is about environmentalism and not finance.

maisymouser

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 12:20:48 PM »
This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/04/its-never-too-late-to-ditch-your-gas-guzzler/
This post is nearly a decade old and largely irrelevant now.

Back in 2012, many (most?) "SUVs" were traditional truck-based body-on-frame SUVs with poor gas mileage.
Now, most SUVs are car-based unibody vehicles that are MUCH more efficient.

Many SUVs today have comparable gas mileage to their car counterparts.
Additionally, many automakers are abandoning traditional cars, making this article even more irrelevant.

I haven't ever seen MMM say anything positive about SUVs in the last eight years since that was published. If anything, these days SUVs look even worse compared to the new alternative of zero gas vehicles, given that MMM is about environmentalism and not finance.

+1. You can get a new fancy spaceship PHEV for that kind of money nowadays.

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 12:43:23 PM »
I haven't ever seen MMM say anything positive about SUVs in the last eight years since that was published. If anything, these days SUVs look even worse compared to the new alternative of zero gas vehicles, given that MMM is about environmentalism and not finance.
What is your definition of an SUV?
Toyota Rav4 Hybrid or Prime?
Tesla Model X or Y?

And manufacturers are increasingly moving from cars to SUVs. 
By next year, Ford will make ZERO cars besides the Mustang.
Also, many "SUVs" today are simply cars with black plastic cladding stuck on.

Should we stay away from all SUVs, regardless of how efficient they are?
https://www.motortrend.com/news/best-gas-mileage-suvs/

Do you see why "SUVs are evil" argument doesn't really make sense as we go into 2021?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 01:01:10 PM by researcher1 »

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2020, 12:50:38 PM »
I am now set for life.  $500,000 in RRSP, $100,000 in TFSA, and $150,000 in non-registered.  I've always owned second hand cars...and I'm thinking it's time to treat myself!  I'm excitedly looking at spending $32,000 cash for brand new SUV, which still doesn't touch the investments listed.  Thoughts?  (...and I love my parttime job, so I still have $$ coming in...)
Good grief, some of the responses in this thread are ridiculous.
The OP is set for life
What is the point of earning and saving money if you don't ever intend to spend it?

Buy the new car, drive it for 12-15 years, then repeat the process.

Or you can hoard your money, buy beater cars every few years, and increase the chance of being stranded on the side of the road.
As an added bonus, you can request to be buried with the $32,000 you saved buy not buying the new car!

Zikoris

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2020, 01:17:27 PM »
I haven't ever seen MMM say anything positive about SUVs in the last eight years since that was published. If anything, these days SUVs look even worse compared to the new alternative of zero gas vehicles, given that MMM is about environmentalism and not finance.
What is your definition of an SUV?
Toyota Rav4 Hybrid or Prime?
Tesla Model X or Y?

And manufacturers are increasingly moving from cars to SUVs. 
By next year, Ford will make ZERO cars besides the Mustang.
Also, many "SUVs" today are simply cars with black plastic cladding stuck on.

Should we stay away from all SUVs, regardless of how efficient they are?
https://www.motortrend.com/news/best-gas-mileage-suvs/

Do you see why "SUVs are evil" argument doesn't really make sense as we go into 2021?

Given that the comparison would be zero emission cars, and the planet is burning due to our rampant overconsumption and fossil fuel usage,  and MMM IS NOT ABOUT MONEY BUT THE ENVIRONMENT, then YES buying a new gas-powered car and actively working to destroy the planet faster is not in line with MMM.

OP, whether you do it or not is your business, but you're asking if it's in line with MMM, and the answer is 100% NO. If MMM was about money, maybe the answer would be different, but the entire premise of MMM is that the typical middle class lifestyle is an exploding volcano of wastefulness, the planet is burning due to our wasteful overconsumption, and for god's sakes we need to stop doing bullshit things like "treating ourselves" with new cars.

Cranky

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2020, 02:27:46 PM »
But then the issue isn’t new/used it’s gas/electric, which isn’t really the question on the table.

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2020, 02:31:33 PM »
Given that the comparison would be zero emission cars, and the planet is burning due to our rampant overconsumption and fossil fuel usage,  and MMM IS NOT ABOUT MONEY BUT THE ENVIRONMENT, then YES buying a new gas-powered car and actively working to destroy the planet faster is not in line with MMM.

OP, whether you do it or not is your business, but you're asking if it's in line with MMM, and the answer is 100% NO. If MMM was about money, maybe the answer would be different, but the entire premise of MMM is that the typical middle class lifestyle is an exploding volcano of wastefulness, the planet is burning due to our wasteful overconsumption, and for god's sakes we need to stop doing bullshit things like "treating ourselves" with new cars.
You're not even following along with your original position.  You said...
"This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstance."

Your stance was about purchasing an SUV vs a car.
It was NOT about purchasing an internal combustion vehicle vs an electric vehicle.
No one, in this thread OR the article you linked, said the "comparison would be a zero emissions car".

Also, you linked to a very specific MMM article. 
The ENTIRE content of that article was about the financial aspect of the decision.  It was all about the MONEY.
There was ZERO direct discussion about the environment in the article you cited.

Again, your stance is NO SUV.
I'm saying that makes absolutely no sense.
Why are you against electric SUVs?  Hybrid SUVs?  SUVs that get comparable gas mileage to the Prius MMM is so in love with?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:45:54 PM by researcher1 »

ChpBstrd

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2020, 02:54:28 PM »
I bought a brand new Honda Fit for about $16,500, but only because the alternative was for example a used Honda Fit that cost only $1500-2500 less with 60k miles on the clock. The trick was to order the car from the dealer with NO options or dealer-add-on features. No floor mats. No pinstripes. No tint. No appearance package. No sport package. No bug guard. No bumper appliqué'. No nothing - stripped down and straight from the crate. The dealer reluctantly agreed as I forced the conversation on price and was quite tedious. Then I revealed I'd be paying cash. My stripped-down base model was shipped in from out of state a week or 2 later. Every car nearby had already been loaded with extra "features". 

The savings from the dealer-add-ons amounted to a couple of years worth of depreciation for this particular model. Eight years later it's worth $9k less than I paid (avg. $1,125/y or $3.08/day depreciation) and there is no need to trade and pay sales tax again for at least the next 8 years. Do the math, approximate that, and you have my permission to buy new. However, I doubt a RAV4 would look as good when you run the numbers.

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2020, 03:04:15 PM »
I bought a brand new Honda Fit for about $16,500, but only because the alternative was for example a used Honda Fit that cost only $1500-2500 less with 60k miles on the clock.
I'm glad there is another voice of reason here.
If you aggressively negotiate on a mainstream new car, you are not getting hit with these wildly inaccurate depreciation numbers.

And these people never account for the amount of life already eaten up on the used vehicles.
Yes, a vehicle with 50K miles on the odometer is cheaper than a new car, but it also has 1/4 of its life already used up.
Which means you will be buying another used car 25% sooner, and paying sales tax/tags/doc fees/maintenance/repairs more frequently.

Zikoris

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2020, 03:16:44 PM »
Given that the comparison would be zero emission cars, and the planet is burning due to our rampant overconsumption and fossil fuel usage,  and MMM IS NOT ABOUT MONEY BUT THE ENVIRONMENT, then YES buying a new gas-powered car and actively working to destroy the planet faster is not in line with MMM.

OP, whether you do it or not is your business, but you're asking if it's in line with MMM, and the answer is 100% NO. If MMM was about money, maybe the answer would be different, but the entire premise of MMM is that the typical middle class lifestyle is an exploding volcano of wastefulness, the planet is burning due to our wasteful overconsumption, and for god's sakes we need to stop doing bullshit things like "treating ourselves" with new cars.
You're not even following along with your original position.  You said...
"This is an easy one. Pretty sure MMM would tell you to NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstance."

Your stance was about purchasing an SUV vs a car.
It was NOT about purchasing an internal combustion vehicle vs an electric vehicle.
No one, in this thread OR the article you linked, said the "comparison would be a zero emissions car".

Also, you linked to a very specific MMM article. 
The ENTIRE content of that article was about the financial aspect of the decision.  It was all about the MONEY.
There was ZERO direct discussion about the environment in the article you cited.

Again, your stance is NO SUV.
I'm saying that makes absolutely no sense.
Why are you against electric SUVs?  Hybrid SUVs?  SUVs that get comparable gas mileage to the Prius MMM is so in love with?

Yes, MMM does not explicitly mention the environment in that post - he doesn't explicitly mention it in most posts, because it's an environmental blog disguised as a financial blog (he has been very clear about it), but for long-time readers familiar with and goals of the project, it's pretty obvious. And that article predated the widespread availability of electric cars, so they're obviously not mentioned, but if the article was written today, it definitely would (as MMM has written more recently about electric vehicles)

I'm only mentioning SUVs at all because that's what OP is thinking of buying. I would say the same about a truck or whatever if they were thinking of buying that. I've personally never owned or driven a car and think most of them are fairly equally stupid/shitty things to inflict on the planet. I think cars make us fat and unhealthy in addition to fucking up the planet, and we should all be trying to reduce or eliminate their usage. Another good oldie post on the topic: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

This whole thing just seems very strange to me because MMM is very clear on his anti-car stance, particularly cars that are worse for the environment, so it's just really weird to see someone essentially looking for approval to do the opposite, followed by so many people here posting "treat yourself!" and "buy it if it makes you happy!".

joemandadman189

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2020, 03:33:57 PM »
OP is a 59 y/o Canadian female who is set for life financially,

do your research on what you need based upon your driving habits (snow, kilometers per year, kpg, etc), negotiate a price down as low as you can and get what ever you want, brand new or slightly used doesnt matter really,

there likely aren't many electric snow capable (OP is in Canada) SUVs out there

i bought a new left over model for 15% off msrp at 0% interest almost 10 years ago, i would do it again without a doubt

robartsd

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2020, 03:36:59 PM »
I'd rather buy lightly used and take an extra vacation with the money saved vs. buying new. It's OK to treat yourself,, but think about which treat you want the most; I'm pretty sure brand new car will never make it to the top of mine.

GuitarStv

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2020, 03:47:14 PM »
I purchased a brand new Corolla sixteen years ago and have no regrets.  I'm hoping to get another ten years out of it.
 If you plan to drive the same car into the ground, I don't believe there's really much difference in the lifetime cost of buying a car brand new and buying several older cars over the same time period.

They have a cheaper book value, but there's greater risk with older vehicles if you're not a good automobile mechanic.  There's the additional time necessary to find a new vehicle, the possibility of not being able to find the vehicle that you want because of the local market, and the potential loss of income from not having a reliable car (if you're driving the cheapest old beaters).

RetiredAt63

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2020, 04:29:15 PM »
I purchased a brand new Corolla sixteen years ago and have no regrets.  I'm hoping to get another ten years out of it.
 If you plan to drive the same car into the ground, I don't believe there's really much difference in the lifetime cost of buying a car brand new and buying several older cars over the same time period.

They have a cheaper book value, but there's greater risk with older vehicles if you're not a good automobile mechanic.  There's the additional time necessary to find a new vehicle, the possibility of not being able to find the vehicle that you want because of the local market, and the potential loss of income from not having a reliable car (if you're driving the cheapest old beaters).

This.  Plus if you buy at the end of the model year you may be able to get a better deal.  Or a demo.  Dealership owns and maintains it, a sales agent in the car for test drives means it hasn't been abused, it doesn't go for a new car price because it isn't new.  I bought demo end of year and the price was good.  And ask for throw-ins.  It's mid-October, get them to throw in winter tires (and rims for cheap).  After all, someone selling privately would have all-season and winter tires.

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2020, 04:37:15 PM »
I'm only mentioning SUVs at all because that's what OP is thinking of buying. I would say the same about a truck or whatever if they were thinking of buying that. I've personally never owned or driven a car and think most of them are fairly equally stupid/shitty things to inflict on the planet. I think cars make us fat and unhealthy in addition to fucking up the planet, and we should all be trying to reduce or eliminate their usage.

This whole thing just seems very strange to me because MMM is very clear on his anti-car stance, particularly cars that are worse for the environment, so it's just really weird to see someone essentially looking for approval to do the opposite, followed by so many people here posting "treat yourself!" and "buy it if it makes you happy!".
The OP asked about buying a new SUV.
Your response was..."NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances"
But what you REALLY meant was that the OP should NEVER EVER buy any type of vehicle of any kind under any circumstances?

What country/city/state do you live in?
Do you realize there are HUGE swaths of North America that aren't part of a dense city center with public transit?
Are you proposing that the entire North American population should move to a large city with public transportation?

So we should completely abandon entire states/regions, all in the name of no one owning a vehicle?

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2020, 04:47:29 PM »
I'd rather buy lightly used and take an extra vacation with the money saved vs. buying new. It's OK to treat yourself,, but think about which treat you want the most; I'm pretty sure brand new car will never make it to the top of mine.
Can you explain this "money saved vs. buying new"?
How much less do you think a "lightly used" Honda/Toyota SUV is vs. an aggressively negotiated new model?

And any money saved by purchasing used should not be spent on an extra vacation.
It will need to be saved for your next car purchase, because you'll be buying another car sooner than you would had you bought new.

Zikoris

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2020, 04:49:35 PM »
I'm only mentioning SUVs at all because that's what OP is thinking of buying. I would say the same about a truck or whatever if they were thinking of buying that. I've personally never owned or driven a car and think most of them are fairly equally stupid/shitty things to inflict on the planet. I think cars make us fat and unhealthy in addition to fucking up the planet, and we should all be trying to reduce or eliminate their usage.

This whole thing just seems very strange to me because MMM is very clear on his anti-car stance, particularly cars that are worse for the environment, so it's just really weird to see someone essentially looking for approval to do the opposite, followed by so many people here posting "treat yourself!" and "buy it if it makes you happy!".
The OP asked about buying a new SUV.
Your response was..."NEVER EVER buy an SUV under any circumstances"
But what you REALLY meant was that the OP should NEVER EVER buy any type of vehicle of any kind under any circumstances?

What country/city/state do you live in?
Do you realize there are HUGE swaths of North America that aren't part of a dense city center with public transit?
Are you proposing that the entire North American population should move to a large city with public transportation?

So we should completely abandon entire states/regions, all in the name of no one owning a vehicle?

Canada, like OP. I think vehicles here can be reasonable, but the vehicles traditionally thought of as SUVs (i.e. excluding something that's listed as an SUV but really an efficiency car in disguise) really have no place in the modern world. Those giant expensive gas-guzzling trucks shouldn't exist either outside of things that directly need them (like a farmer).

If a person genuinely needs a vehicle (i.e. they're not just lazy), secondhand is a generally a much better option both financially and environmentally. Buying new and then driving it into the ground is fine too, but hardly anybody actually does that.

Basically, I think people should try very hard to live car-free or car-light, and if they absolutely need a car, don't buy a stupid one like a traditional SUV or giant truck. Which is basically exactly what MMM says.

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2020, 05:14:41 PM »
I think vehicles here can be reasonable, but the vehicles traditionally thought of as SUVs (i.e. excluding something that's listed as an SUV but really an efficiency car in disguise) really have no place in the modern world. Those giant expensive gas-guzzling trucks shouldn't exist either outside of things that directly need them (like a farmer).

If a person genuinely needs a vehicle (i.e. they're not just lazy), secondhand is a generally a much better option both financially and environmentally. Buying new and then driving it into the ground is fine too, but hardly anybody actually does that.

Basically, I think people should try very hard to live car-free or car-light, and if they absolutely need a car, don't buy a stupid one like a traditional SUV or giant truck. Which is basically exactly what MMM says.
You've taken at least 3 contradictory stances in this one thread...

Your first stance:  Never buy an SUV.
I explained that the article you linked to was largely irrelevant, because the vast majority of modern SUVs are NOT the truck-based fuel hogs mentioned.

You then switched the argument:  Every type of vehicle (gas/electric, car/SUV) is evil.
I then pointed out that huge parts of the continent could not possibly live like you do, without some form of motorized transportation.

So you switched again:  Vehicles "can be reasonable", but not the old-school SUVs discussed in the decade-old article you cited.
Which mean you are in complete agreement with my initial response...

It sounds like your revised advice to the OP is that it is perfectly reasonable to purchase a new car-based SUV and drive it for 10-15 years.

StashingAway

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2020, 05:28:18 PM »
I'd rather buy lightly used and take an extra vacation with the money saved vs. buying new. It's OK to treat yourself,, but think about which treat you want the most; I'm pretty sure brand new car will never make it to the top of mine.
Can you explain this "money saved vs. buying new"?
How much less do you think a "lightly used" Honda/Toyota SUV is vs. an aggressively negotiated new model?


The whole dealership models is designed to make you think you got a good deal. Everyone who buys new says they got a good deal.

I would rather be subject to waterboarding than undergo "aggressive negotiation" with the finance guys at a dealer. It's unnecessary and archaic. I put it in the category of gambling: it's entertaining for some, but is a completely worthless pursuit and should in no circumstance be considered standard operating procedure. I've tried to do it, but I end up walking out due to the complete BS theater of the whole operations. Same with shopping different dealers and emailing them all separately and having a PHD in psychology and all of the intricate rigmarole that people who tout the benefits of negotiating on cars state. It's such a waste of human capital when we could just have a number and sell it.

Can you tell that I am slightly opinionated about this?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 05:31:19 PM by StashingAway »

Cranky

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2020, 05:35:38 PM »
Doesn’t MMM own a work van of some sort?

If I had to pay for delivery every time I needed stuff from the hardware store, I could buy a much fancied car than we have (which is not fancy, but we did buy it new.)

I don’t think an electric car is practical if you need to drive very far, at any rate.

Zikoris

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2020, 10:07:13 PM »
I think vehicles here can be reasonable, but the vehicles traditionally thought of as SUVs (i.e. excluding something that's listed as an SUV but really an efficiency car in disguise) really have no place in the modern world. Those giant expensive gas-guzzling trucks shouldn't exist either outside of things that directly need them (like a farmer).

If a person genuinely needs a vehicle (i.e. they're not just lazy), secondhand is a generally a much better option both financially and environmentally. Buying new and then driving it into the ground is fine too, but hardly anybody actually does that.

Basically, I think people should try very hard to live car-free or car-light, and if they absolutely need a car, don't buy a stupid one like a traditional SUV or giant truck. Which is basically exactly what MMM says.
You've taken at least 3 contradictory stances in this one thread...

Your first stance:  Never buy an SUV.
I explained that the article you linked to was largely irrelevant, because the vast majority of modern SUVs are NOT the truck-based fuel hogs mentioned.

You then switched the argument:  Every type of vehicle (gas/electric, car/SUV) is evil.
I then pointed out that huge parts of the continent could not possibly live like you do, without some form of motorized transportation.

So you switched again:  Vehicles "can be reasonable", but not the old-school SUVs discussed in the decade-old article you cited.
Which mean you are in complete agreement with my initial response...

It sounds like your revised advice to the OP is that it is perfectly reasonable to purchase a new car-based SUV and drive it for 10-15 years.

I'd never heard of fake SUVs before now, so I originally assumed we were all talking about what has traditionally been considered an SUV. Certainly in my experience living in Canada, like the OP, most people here referring to SUVs are talking about the huge things. I have never once heard a person call anything remotely car-like an SUV - maybe that's more of an American thing?

To clear up the confusion on my stance - I operate on a tiered system. The ideal is no car, obviously. If that's not possible for whatever reason, next level down is no stupid cars, if that's still not possible, then the next best option would be the most eco-friendly option available of whatever cars were options. I think it makes a lot of sense to apply the same logic to transportation options even if you do have a car - like, if you want to go somewhere, ideally you would walk/bike, next tier down would be public transport, next would be carpooling, and driving yourself would be at the bottom for after you'd exhausted everything else.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2020, 11:42:00 PM »
I'm a 59 yr old Canadian female, and although I only made about $40,000 a year, I am now set for life.  $500,000 in RRSP, $100,000 in TFSA, and $150,000 in non-registered.  I've always owned second hand cars...and I'm thinking it's time to treat myself!  I'm excitedly looking at spending $32,000 cash for brand new SUV, which still doesn't touch the investments listed.  Thoughts?  (...and I love my parttime job, so I still have $$ coming in...)

If you want a new car to keep for the next 15 years or so, that's not so bad. Not the most Mustachian option, but if you get something inexpensive and efficient and keep for a long time, it can be OK. Especially if used cars rust out early over there and it's hard to find something over five or ten years old that isn't a pile of rust.

May I ask why you are looking at an SUV? Do you require ground clearance? All wheel drive? Towing capacity? Carrying 6 or more people? What do you need it to do that a Corolla or Elantra or similar cannot?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 11:45:58 PM by alsoknownasDean »

Cranky

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2020, 04:43:22 AM »
I think “fake SUVs” are mostly called “crossovers” now, and they seem to be much of the car market now.

We have a Subaru Impreza, which is fine for short local trips but honestly a little too small for many things.

Also, I don’t actually drive and did many errands on foot back when I could do errands. Sigh.

MayDay

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2020, 05:13:09 AM »
I bought a new car this summer.

It's fine. It's a car. If you aren't a new car person I'm not sure how thrilling it will really be after the first few weeks.

I like it because it was easier to buy and I won't have to deal with buying a new car for longer hahaha. It was not particularly financially advantageous, but also not particularly detrimental due to the high price of used cars and the low price I got on account of getting a good deal on a less popular last year model.

ChpBstrd

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2020, 09:01:37 AM »
I bought a brand new Honda Fit for about $16,500, but only because the alternative was for example a used Honda Fit that cost only $1500-2500 less with 60k miles on the clock.
I'm glad there is another voice of reason here.
If you aggressively negotiate on a mainstream new car, you are not getting hit with these wildly inaccurate depreciation numbers.

And these people never account for the amount of life already eaten up on the used vehicles.
Yes, a vehicle with 50K miles on the odometer is cheaper than a new car, but it also has 1/4 of its life already used up.
Which means you will be buying another used car 25% sooner, and paying sales tax/tags/doc fees/maintenance/repairs more frequently.

Used cars are becoming a worse deal too.

From https://www.marketwatch.com/story/consumer-prices-rise-more-slowly-in-september-inflation-stays-low-11602594078?mod=home-page

Quote
The cost of used cars and trucks jumped 6.7% in September, posting the biggest increase since 1969.

tawyer

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2020, 10:30:28 AM »
Used cars are becoming a worse deal too.

From https://www.marketwatch.com/story/consumer-prices-rise-more-slowly-in-september-inflation-stays-low-11602594078?mod=home-page

Quote
The cost of used cars and trucks jumped 6.7% in September, posting the biggest increase since 1969.
This is a somewhat misleading interpretation. The rise in the cost of buying used is pandemic related as people try to avoid public transit and the supply of new cars and trucks dwindles. There's no evidence to suggest that this is a long term trend

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2020, 11:05:21 AM »
This is a somewhat misleading interpretation. The rise in the cost of buying used is pandemic related as people try to avoid public transit and the supply of new cars and trucks dwindles. There's no evidence to suggest that this is a long term trend
This is wrong.

Used car prices have been trending upward for years, well before the pandemic hit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/02/24/used-car-buyers-dealers-squeezed-by-a-lack-of-beaters/#db3b92571184

So there IS evidence to suggest that this is a long-term trend.
And this used car trend will become even worse in the months/years after the pandemic.

Used car inventory is shrinking due to demand.
While new car sales have declined due to the shaky economy, meaning there will be fewer used cars available in the future.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/car-sales-are-down-almost-20-but-prices-are-setting-records-11599219000

ender

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2020, 11:25:08 AM »
This is a somewhat misleading interpretation. The rise in the cost of buying used is pandemic related as people try to avoid public transit and the supply of new cars and trucks dwindles. There's no evidence to suggest that this is a long term trend
This is wrong.

Used car prices have been trending upward for years, well before the pandemic hit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/02/24/used-car-buyers-dealers-squeezed-by-a-lack-of-beaters/#db3b92571184

So there IS evidence to suggest that this is a long-term trend.
And this used car trend will become even worse in the months/years after the pandemic.

Used car inventory is shrinking due to demand.
While new car sales have declined due to the shaky economy, meaning there will be fewer used cars available in the future.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/car-sales-are-down-almost-20-but-prices-are-setting-records-11599219000

+1

The oft repeated meme that new cars are way more expensive is annoying.

Some brands are a lot more expensive to buy new but for many vehicles it's hardly much more to buy new.

Not to mention that price shopping + internet makes it easy to get a decent deal on newer vehicles (compared to older ones).

tawyer

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2020, 11:31:45 AM »
This is a somewhat misleading interpretation. The rise in the cost of buying used is pandemic related as people try to avoid public transit and the supply of new cars and trucks dwindles. There's no evidence to suggest that this is a long term trend
This is wrong.
No, it's really not wrong. September 2020 data were presented to support long term trend: this is misleading, because of the ongoing pandemic. Perhaps I should have said "this rise", for anyone keen to quote me out of the original context.

Thanks for the Forbes link, I learned something that supports your long-term trend argument. The WSJ article is timestamped September, so the ripple from the pandemic will be felt in the future, but again, this isn't evidence of a long term trend, merely a lagged transient effect.

I maintain that buying a brand new status-signalling SUV is one of the shittiest things you can do for the planet and everyone else who lives on it. I'll clarify that I'm not intrinsically opposed to buying new if the market demands it.

tawyer

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2020, 11:34:12 AM »
The oft repeated meme that new cars are way more expensive is annoying.
Yes, that meme is annoying, along with avoiding car loans, which are useful financial tools.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 11:48:55 AM by tawyer »

researcher1

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2020, 12:25:02 PM »
No, it's really not wrong. September 2020 data were presented to support long term trend: this is misleading, because of the ongoing pandemic. Perhaps I should have said "this rise", for anyone keen to quote me out of the original context.

Thanks for the Forbes link, I learned something that supports your long-term trend argument. The WSJ article is timestamped September, so the ripple from the pandemic will be felt in the future, but again, this isn't evidence of a long term trend, merely a lagged transient effect.
The fact is, there has been a long term rise in the price of used cars, which pre-dates the pandemic.
The fact is, this trend will continue in the coming years, and likely get worse due to...
- Greater demand & shrinking inventory of used vehicles
- Decline in new car sales, which will limit the used car inventory in the coming years.
- Decimation of the rental car industry, which was a huge source of used car inventory.

Quote
I maintain that buying a brand new status-signalling SUV is one of the shittiest things you can do for the planet and everyone else who lives on it. I'll clarify that I'm not intrinsically opposed to buying new if the market demands it.
How are vehicles like the car-based Toyota Rav 4 hybrid or Ford Escape hybrid a"status-signalling SUV"?
And how are those types of vehicles "one of the shittiest things you can do for the planet"?

tawyer

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2020, 12:35:21 PM »
Quote
I maintain that buying a brand new status-signalling SUV is one of the shittiest things you can do for the planet and everyone else who lives on it. I'll clarify that I'm not intrinsically opposed to buying new if the market demands it.
How are vehicles like the car-based Toyota Rav 4 hybrid or Ford Escape hybrid a"status-signalling SUV"?
And how are those types of vehicles "one of the shittiest things you can do for the planet"?
Go read the main blog and do some of your own research into how consumerism is playing a huge role in climate change. I learned something about used car trends today, but I don't think you are genuinely open to learning anything that contradicts your currently held view from another forum member.

ChpBstrd

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Re: When you can afford it, is it still Mustachian to buy a Brand New Car?
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2020, 01:27:46 PM »
A lot of the rising price of used cars is due to the rising price of new cars, which have become more complex and more loaded with features. The percentage of cars with leather interiors, power mirrors, aluminum rims, and other luxury items has increased, while the number of cars you can still buy with crank windows or bench seats have decreased. Then there is the now-ubiquitous infotainment and networking equipment that has replaced the old AM/FM CD player. An economist would call this rising quality, while I would call it lifestyle creep on a nationwide scale.

The shift in demand towards luxury pickups/SUVs and away from basic economy cars would, in itself, raise the average when these vehicles are resold. That is, a luxury truck/SUV that cost $60k new will cost the next person $30k in a few years when it's lost half it's value. A stripped-down Nissan Versa that was $16k new will cost $8k in the same timeframe. Hybrid drivetrains, while a good thing that adds utility to a vehicle, also contribute to higher average used car prices.

All this is an effect of rising income inequality, or if you prefer the hollowing out of the middle class. If the demographic profile of people who can afford to buy new cars shifts away from the lower-to-mid middle class, and toward the upper middle class and upper  class, then the rest of us will have to eventually inherit used cars originally bought by people whose income is much higher than ours, rather than perhaps slightly larger than us.

Similarly, the car manufacturers will have to respond to the demand for luxury by making more luxury cars and fewer basic cars. Taken to extremes, most cars on the market in a world of have and have-nots be loaded with features, oversized, and with a cost of ownership (i.e. energy, insurance, taxes, depreciation, and maintenance) unaffordable to blue-collar families. Imagine if your only automotive choice within your budget was 20-year old Mercedes Benzes. You'd have to buy worn-out luxury instead of reliability, efficiency, or durability.

The opponent process to this escalating trend of car fanciness is that when there is a surplus of supply for 3-10 year old luxury vehicles that exceeds demand, then such vehicles would have to sell for lower prices. Thus, the upper middle class buyers of such things would get hit with bigger depreciation losses as they try to sell their used vehicles to financially stretched lower middle class buyers. This is why a Civic depreciates much less than a Range Rover. Five-digit depreciation losses discourage people from buying the loaded Cadillac Escalade in the first place, and encourages them to either buy used themselves or reduce their levels of luxury, e.g. the new Rav4 with cloth seats instead of the new Escalade.

The current imbalance between what the wealthy can afford to buy new and what the working classes can afford to buy used is also apparent in housing. More large houses than small houses are being built because only higher-income people are buying new homes. Thus, the young family with a working-class income who could live an efficient lifestyle in a 1k square foot house does not have the choice to buy that in many cities with tracts full of McMansions and 3-car merchandise storage units. So the young family stretches to buy a house twice as big as they need, and pick up two too-large used luxury vehicles because that's all that is for sale.

In this way, income inequality perpetuates itself. The family described above will be in a permanent state of financial struggle due to being house-poor and car-poor. And yet they can look around and see their lifestyle is completely normal.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!