Author Topic: When to euthanize a dog  (Read 7906 times)

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
When to euthanize a dog
« on: April 26, 2018, 12:07:10 PM »
We have a dog.  I don't like the dog, and I've never liked the dog.  She is 10 years old. She's been through obedience school, but she is the least intelligent and least obedient dog I've ever owned or even known.  Despite this I didn't feel right killing a perfectly healthy animal just because I didn't enjoy her.

She has developed a number of health issues over the years.  She tore her CCL and had surgery to repair it.  The whole ordeal was brutal, and both my wife and I regret putting her and ourselves through that.  The recovery was months and months of carrying her up and down stairs, and keeping her restricted so she didn't hurt herself. If we could go back we would not opt for the surgery.  Shortly after recovery, she was heavily favoring the good leg and putting all her weight on it, and because of this tore her other CCL.  We thought it might be her time, and opted to let it heal naturally rather than putting everyone through the ordeal of another expensive, painful surgery and recovery period.  Her recovery this time was significantly faster and a much better experience (for us and her).  She still shows signs of mild discomfort (doesn't run up and down stairs as readily as she used to, can't walk or play as long as she used to, acts lethargic, gets up/down much slower).  I think it's a combination of the injuries and her old age, and arthritis.

She also developed severe allergies.  We did oral treatments, diet change after diet change, and gave her subcutaneous shots for a couple of months, all at great expense.  Nothing worked.  Finally we got her on a steroid (prednisolone), and it was the only thing that even remotely worked to reduce her allergies and give her any quality of life.  The vet was concerned about long term use of steroids, but there were literally no other options.  We knew we were likely reducing her length of life in exchange for making her semi comfortable in the moment.  The steroids also seemed to help with her inflammation and joint discomfort.   Finally a new drug, apoquel, was made available and we tried it, and it worked far better than anything else we tried.  It didn't work 100% though, and she was still itchy and having issues, but it was manageable.   It worked maybe 85%.  It was also rather expensive, and they keep raising the price every year.  Her current annual cost for apoquel is $520/yr.

While she was taking the steroids she also developed urinary incontinence and would leak urine all over the house.  She wasn't intentionally pissing in the house, the steroids caused her to have to urinate frequently and she would just leak.  She'd get up and there would be a tiny puddle of piss.  Or she would get up, and leave a drip trail of piss because it was just leaking.  Once we got her off the steroids and onto the apoquel the incontinence improved, but never went away.  After we took her off the steroids she also lost her appetite and stopped eating.  Instead of the normal 2 meals a day she would let the food sit in her bowl, and eat maybe once a day, but sometimes would skip a day entirely.  She has lost weight and is looking skinny.  She also vomits a couple of times per week.  It's not constant, but I am fucking sick of cleaning up dog puke.

Over the last 2 years she has also developed some growths on her eyelids.  The vet said they are not life threatening, and would incur a several hundred dollar bill to remove them, and they would likely just grow back.  We opted not to remove them.

She has also developed a growth on her chest.  The vet said it didn't seem painful to her, and was likely benign.  We wouldn't know for sure unless we wanted to perform exploratory surgery.  We opted not to put her through the surgery.  She has grown a couple more since then, also likely benign.   They don't seem to cause her pain when they are touched, but she does seem like she doesn't want the area poked at excessively. 

She has behavioral issues.  She can't be left outside unattended because she will eat anything and everything she can get her mouth on (grass, garbage, etc).  She also attacks the fence if there are neighbor dogs (which there constantly are).  This is how she tore her CCL the first time, years ago, by jumping wildly at our privacy fence while trying to attack the dog on the other side.  We tried to socialize her with the neighbor dog and thought they would stop attacking the fence if we could let them sniff each other and get used to each other, and she decided to attack and bite the other dog.  All 4 owners were present, and they were both on leashes, so there was no damage, but we decided at that point she was not a social dog and would never allow her to be around another dog.

She is also possessive of her bones and toys, and if anyone tries to steal one she gets aggressive.  She doesn't attack the person per say, but aggressively tries to get possession of her bone again.  This is a huge concern for us as we have a 6 month old baby that is going to be crawling soon.  The baby won't understand to stay away from the dogs bones, and the dog won't understand that the baby is not trying to steal her bones.

Currently we've been locking the dog in the bathroom every time we give our son floor time.  He can't crawl and get her bones or threaten her, but she has this tendancy to go spastic whenever she sees reflected light.  If sunlight comes through a window and hits a watch/phone/silverware and reflects on the ceiling or wall she goes ballistic trying to attack the light.  She barks and flips out with no situational awareness and will trample anyone/anything in her way.  Before the baby this was an extremely annoying though mildly funny reaction, but now with a baby I don't feel safe having them on the same floor.

We've been on the fence for the last couple of years about putting her to sleep for all the reasons listed.  Her quality of life is dropping every year, and the cost to keep her is rising every year.  She already passed the financial cut off point where I thought it was reasonable to keep her a couple of years ago, but my wife loved her and didn't want to let her go.   

We finally made the decision that it was her time, and scheduled an appointment.  Much crying and grieving went on.  We got a babysitter so we could both see her off.  We went to the vet, and prepaid so we didn't have to deal with it afterwards.  Then the vet came in and had an awkward conversation that went something like this:

Vet: So what's going on with the dog?
Me: All the reasons above.
Vet:  Those aren't good reasons to kill your dog.  All of those are treatable conditions.  We have medications to address all of that.
Me: Yea I know, at great expense, and then she still has a reduced quality of life, and I can't trust her around my baby/other dogs.
Vet: She might have a urinary tract infection causing her incontinence.
Me: No, she doesn't have a UTI.
Vet: How do you know that?
Me: It's been an on going issue for the last several years, ever since she was on prednisolone long term.  We also had her tested for this exact issue last year because you suspected it might be an infection, despite all evidence pointing to it not being an infection.
Vet: Well I can't know unless I test her.
Me: You did test her and it's not a damn UTI! She's been doing it for years at this point!  You are her vet, you should have 10 years worth of her history and medications in your files.
Vet: The cost for testing and medication is not that much, and those aren't good reasons.
Me: Yes it is, the cost for the last year has been too great IMO and you are talking about adding several more diagnostic tests and medications to that.  I agree that any one of those reasons individually is not enough to warrant it, but all of them in aggregate means her annual treatment costs will be the highest they've ever been, and her quality of life is going to be the lowest it's ever been.
Vet: There is also the option of rehoming her.
Me: Nobody wants a 10 year old dog with all these health issues, that is going to cost north of $2k/yr to keep alive (assuming nothing else goes wrong!), that can't be trusted around children, and can't be around other dogs!  You're delusional if you think someone will rehome her when there are literally thousands of young, perfectly healthy dogs being euthanized because nobody wants them.
Vet: I won't euthanize a dog that has treatable conditions and is rehomable. It's not ethical.
Me: Why did you even allow us to schedule an appointment?!
Vet: I didn't personally take the call, that was the receptionist on the front end.  Let me work up a cost estimate for you.
Me: Ok, make sure you include everything so we get an accurate annual cost

At this point the vet leaves, and me and my wife are in shock trying to understand wtf just happened.  A few minutes later a vet tech came in with an estimate.

VT: This is what it will cost today to get your dog treated.
Me: Yeah, but this doesn't include all the treatments, medications, and vaccines she will require.  This is just a small sampling of what the true cost will be, and is only a months worth of medication, this is exactly why I asked for a total work up.
VT: Yes, this is what it will cost today.  We can do these services and can schedule the other stuff later.
Me. No, that's the problem, this isn't an accurate representation of the true cost.   I need a total annual number to make a decision.
VT: This is what it will cost today.
Me: YES I FUCKING UNDERSTAND THIS IS WHAT IT WILL COST TODAY.  I think it's disingenuous for you to present me with a bill that is likely under 20% of the true cost, and have me pay it so it becomes a sunk cost, and then continue to bill me when I've told you the dog is already a financial burden to us.

At that point I walked out of the vet and went home.  I've totaled up what I expect her annual vet costs to be based on previous bills, and come up with about $1,000.  Adding the new medication the vet wants to put her on brings the total to about $1,600/yr.  Add in the other non vet costs brings the grand total pet ownership to $2,000/yr.  This is the guaranteed cost, assuming we don't treat the growths on her eyes or the growths on her chest, and her health doesn't decline at all (it's been in continuous decline for about 6 years). For an animal I don't like, that pisses and vomits on my carpet, I don't trust around my baby, and doesn't seem to enjoy life early as much as she used to.  I have spent the last week wrestling with the emotions and trying to come to peace with saying goodbye, and then the plan got turned on it's ear by the vet, and it's been a total mind fuck for both me and my wife.


I know I can call another vet, or shelter, and have her euthanized. I know there are places that will do it no questions asked.  But now I'm having a lot of self doubt that I am making the right decision.  I still think we are, but it's really bothering and stressing me out, and the decision is so irreversible.  I can't decide I regret my decision and undo it.  She doesn't have a good quality of life (IMO), but she's also not crying in pain constantly.  If she had incurable cancer, or couldn't walk at all, or needed a $7k procedure, or something this decision would be a lot easier.  As it stands now it's a judgement call, and she's somewhere on the spectrum between being a happy dog, and living a miserable existence.  She still has good days.  She still wags her tail and greets me at the door.  She doesn't get to chase the ball around or go for long walks anymore.  I've seen too many people hang on to their pets for far too long after the quality of life has declined, and I always thought it was immensely selfish and unfair to keep the pet around that long.  It's unfair to the animal to let it suffer. 

Now I feel even more conflicted than I did originally and I don't know what to do.

PoutineLover

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2018, 12:20:03 PM »
This is really sad and I can see why it's a tough decision. I don't have a dog, but I do have a cat, and if she developed a problem that cost 2K a year to treat, I wouldn't be able to keep her, as much as I'd want to. That is a big expense, and if you add it to all of the other issues, it does sound like you have thought this through and made the best decision for your family. Maybe it would be possible to put her up for adoption, but I can't imagine that many people would be willing to take on an animal with those problems so euthanasia might be kinder. And screw that vet, I'd understand a bit of trying to talk you out of it but your reasons are not frivolous and it sounds like he is lying about the cost to keep you on as a lucrative customer. Best of luck whatever you decide, but you can't feel bad if the best interests of your family are at heart.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2018, 12:33:54 PM »
I don't even want to rehome the dog.  I don't feel ethical about it.  She shows aggression towards other dogs and has bitten one.  I don't trust her around my child.  Plus like I said, there are thousands of perfectly healthy young dogs in shelters that are going to be put down.  If someone adopts my dog, that means one of those dogs gets put down, it's just the math of it.  She was my wife's dog for a year, then I came into the picture, so she's known my wife for 10 years, and me for 9 years, and it would crush her to get abandoned by us.  I just don't feel good about rehoming her on any level.

starguru

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 736
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 12:51:00 PM »
Seems like you have put a lot of effort into caring for this dog over the years which is commendable.

I think the issue from the vets point of view the dog isn’t dying. It doesn’t have some terminal illness.   It might be old and a PITA but that’s what happens with all pets. 

I had a pet question before on this forum and got some good responses from vets.  I’m interested in what they say about the ethics of this.

Could you put the dog outside (doghouse) or keep her in the garage or something away from the baby?

I think you are totally reasonable on wanting to keep the dog away from the baby.  I think you are correct that no one else is going to want this dog given it’s age and the maintenance it requires.  Putting her down might be the most humane thing for her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 01:05:38 PM »
Seems like you have put a lot of effort into caring for this dog over the years which is commendable.

I think the issue from the vets point of view the dog isnít dying. It doesnít have some terminal illness.   It might be old and a PITA but thatís what happens with all pets. 

I had a pet question before on this forum and got some good responses from vets.  Iím interested in what they say about the ethics of this.

Could you put the dog outside (doghouse) or keep her in the garage or something away from the baby?

I think you are totally reasonable on wanting to keep the dog away from the baby.  I think you are correct that no one else is going to want this dog given itís age and the maintenance it requires.  Putting her down might be the most humane thing for her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's very easy for the vet to be judgemental when it's not her carpet getting puked and pissed on.  She is also very generous with my money, saying it's not much (but then neglecting to give me an annual total).  How much is reasonable to keep an aging dog alive?  $1k/yr? $2k/yr? $5k/yr?  She doesn't have a terminal illness, but the money being spent increases every year, and the quality of life for the dog (and the enjoyment we get out of the dog) decreases every year.  At this point we are getting far less value per dollar than we got 6 years ago, and that ratio is going to continue getting worse with each passing month. 

We don't have a garage, and the dog cannot be left unattended outside.  She will attack the fence and injure herself (like she did tearing her CCL).  I guess I could just chain her in the middle of the yard, but what's the point?  I'd feel better just putting her down humanely. 

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1809
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 01:42:12 PM »
Sucks about the dog, but Iíd bet all the miserable obedience issues which fuels your hate for the dog - likely are due to lack of structured training. My wife and I have an 11 month old super high drive high energy German Shepherd. He gets 1-2 hrs of walks a day, 30-60 minutes structured obedience. On round 2 of group obedience, and we read four books on dog training and made a 12 page guide before getting him. You get out what you put in.

MayDay

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4029
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 01:56:12 PM »
I'd put it down for sure.

I like dogs,I don't love them,and I just won't spend $$$$$ on them. An older dog with issues gets put down,for me.

We had an 11 year old golden retriever with similar declining health but no aggression. I kept hoping he'd have a sudden decline and he did- he got a stomach blockage and no way were we doing surgery. So that was the end.

I'd find another vet. Maybe drive to a more rural area where pets are not spent on much.

GizmoTX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1408
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 02:00:55 PM »
I agree that the dog should be kept away from the baby 100% of the time, but chaining it outside or keeping it in the garage will only make the behavior problems worse & the dog more unhappy.

I think you already know what you need to do.

Don't get another dog until your youngest child is at least 6 years old.

katsiki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Age: 39
  • Location: La.
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 02:11:23 PM »
This is a tough situation.  Another vet will likely handle the situation for you.  Many vets will do as a reasonable pet owner asks in this situation.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 02:15:45 PM »
Sucks about the dog, but Iíd bet all the miserable obedience issues which fuels your hate for the dog - likely are due to lack of structured training. My wife and I have an 11 month old super high drive high energy German Shepherd. He gets 1-2 hrs of walks a day, 30-60 minutes structured obedience. On round 2 of group obedience, and we read four books on dog training and made a 12 page guide before getting him. You get out what you put in.

She's been through obedience school.  I've owned several dogs, and my family has owned a lot more, and rarely has there been an issue with training.  Obviously not all of those dogs were perfect, but this dog is not even comparable to any dog I've ever dealt with.  My dogs issues are definitely not due to lack of training.  I seriously think she has a learning disability. 

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6965
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 02:16:20 PM »
Seems like you have put a lot of effort into caring for this dog over the years which is commendable.

I think the issue from the vets point of view the dog isnít dying. It doesnít have some terminal illness.   It might be old and a PITA but thatís what happens with all pets. 

I had a pet question before on this forum and got some good responses from vets.  Iím interested in what they say about the ethics of this.

Could you put the dog outside (doghouse) or keep her in the garage or something away from the baby?

I think you are totally reasonable on wanting to keep the dog away from the baby.  I think you are correct that no one else is going to want this dog given itís age and the maintenance it requires.  Putting her down might be the most humane thing for her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is where the tricky part comes in about ethics.

I don't have a dog or a pet.

I did have pets as a child.  I have friends, neighbors, and relatives with pets.

They all have, at some point, had to euthanize their pets.

But when?

In some cases, the pets were in obvious pain.
Others were clearly very very old, and puked and pooped and peed all over the house - were blind, were not able to walk anymore.

For some people, pets become their family and putting down a pet would never ever happen.
For other people, putting them down is considered to be putting the pet out of their misery.
Sometimes it's both (one friend spent at least $10k over two years treating her pet, and her dog died anyway, and it took her 2 years to pay off that debt.)

It's a sliding scale, and it's up to you to decide.  The vet is, quite obviously, not a neutral party.

As a non-pet owner (and I don't want one, because I don't want dog poop, pee, puke etc in my house, I'm still wiping a kid's butt!), I would put the dog down.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2018, 02:27:38 PM »
I'd put it down for sure.

I like dogs,I don't love them,and I just won't spend $$$$$ on them. An older dog with issues gets put down,for me.

We had an 11 year old golden retriever with similar declining health but no aggression. I kept hoping he'd have a sudden decline and he did- he got a stomach blockage and no way were we doing surgery. So that was the end.

I'd find another vet. Maybe drive to a more rural area where pets are not spent on much.

Ha, I feel the opposite.  I've never liked this dog, but have definitely grown attached and love her. 

We've been waiting for something major to happen to happen that will make the decision easy, but it hasn't.  Just a whole lot of minor issues that keep getting progressively worse, but aren't life threatening.  But the end game with that is an old ass dog that costs an assload of money to keep alive, and is in pain and has no joy in life. 

I agree that the dog should be kept away from the baby 100% of the time, but chaining it outside or keeping it in the garage will only make the behavior problems worse & the dog more unhappy.

I think you already know what you need to do.

Don't get another dog until your youngest child is at least 6 years old.

I don't want a dog at all, and I never wanted this dog.  This dog was gotten by my wife's ex bf when they were still together, but they broke up shortly after and he didn't want the dog, and she felt obligated to take the dog and care for it.  So here we are. 

My family had tons of animals growing up (they still about 10 pets at their house), and when I moved out I enjoyed the freedom of not taking care of an animal, not having to rush home to let it out, I was able to go to a friends house and if I got drunk, I could just stay the night and didn't have to worry about coming home to feed a dog and make sure it wasn't shitting all over my house, I was able to sleep in and not wake up early in the morning to let it out, etc.  I feel like we gave up a lot of freedom to take care of this dog.

Hopefully by the time my son is 6 years old I will be FIRE, and can potentially travel the country, or at least have over night stays without having to coordinate care for a dog.

LilTazzy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2018, 02:34:43 PM »
I sure hope no one wants to put you down when you're old, grumpy, in a wheelchair and suffering from urinary incontinence and skin tags growing from your eyelids.

I think it was Ghandi who said that you can tell a lot about the greatness of a nation by the way the animals are treated.

fluffmuffin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
  • Location: VA
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 02:38:46 PM »
Sucks about the dog, but Iíd bet all the miserable obedience issues which fuels your hate for the dog - likely are due to lack of structured training. My wife and I have an 11 month old super high drive high energy German Shepherd. He gets 1-2 hrs of walks a day, 30-60 minutes structured obedience. On round 2 of group obedience, and we read four books on dog training and made a 12 page guide before getting him. You get out what you put in.

@use2betrix, I was a snotty little shit when I got my first dog. She was a "difficult" breed (husky), but due to what I assured myself was my high-quality inputs of exercise, obedience, and consistency, she was a perfect angel. Never put a toe out of line. Commended for her incredible performance in obedience class, to the tune of "I've never seen a husky that was so focused and obedient in the 5 years I've been teaching these classes." Just an all-around dream dog. Then she got terminal cancer and I had to put her to sleep.

Now in the inevitable karmic reversal, I have SUCH a freaking SHITHEAD of a dog. She's a GSD mix, so in theory should be more trainable. Same inputs. Lots of exercise (more, in fact, because it's the only thing that keeps her manageable at all). Lots of obedience training. Same consistency with rules. And she's a shithead anyway. We love her and she has many excellent qualities--but she is just not that smart, not that great, and is never going to be an easy dog. Your comment was, IMO, out of line for the OP's sincere question of wrestling with a difficult situation. Some dogs are harder than others, and it sounds like his dog has been very hard for a very long time. Blaming the OP and his wife for not following the right combination of magical training is unfair.

@frugalnacho, so sorry that you're going through this. Less the issues with kids, it sounds a lot like what my mom went through with her last dog. She kept him alive for a long time because of the reasons that you describe: still wagging his tail, still enjoying some parts of his life, had no untreatable or terminal health problems. But a ton of behavioral problems, incontinence, inability to get up the stairs, etc. These issues popped up when he was maybe 12, and she didn't put him to sleep until he was 16 or 17, so that was 4 solid years of managing pretty severe problems. She finally decided to put him to sleep because he had a couple of seizures that caused noticeable cognitive decline. After a few years of reflection, she regrets having left it as long as she did, and I think she was right. She was miserable managing all of his problems, and it really affected her quality of life--which in turn affected his quality of life, because it's hard to give a dog the love and affection that he needs when you have so many years of pent-up anger and frustration (and also, your dog is covered in its own feces for the fifth day in a row, with no possibility that it will ever be different).

Putting down a pet is hard, even in black-and-white situations like I had, and it really sucks that your vet was so insensitive. I support your decision to make the best choice that you can for your family, even it means making the difficult choice to euthanize your dog. I agree that rehoming a dog at that age, with those health problems, would be extremely difficult--and I also agree that it would be cruel to rip her away from the family and home that she has known and loved. Given those difficulties, combined with the fact that you don't feel safe with her around your child, I think euthanasia is the right choice. And I say that as a long-time dog owner and lover, who is enraged by people who view pets as disposable.

One piece of advice: try to find a vet who will do in-home euthanasia, so your dog can go peacefully in a familiar place, surrounded with her things and her people.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
  • Location: Avalon
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2018, 02:45:38 PM »
I think you are right that at this point your dog will not have a reasonable quality of life with anyone but your wife and you.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that you and your wife are having a reasonable quality of life with this dog.  The constant dribble of pee (especially when you have a baby starting to crawl), plus the aggression issues towards other dogs and potentially to your baby are significant problems. 

Of the other things you mention, I rather take the view that the vet costs and the puking a couple of times a week are pretty much what you have to put up with in an old dog, and having a dog means that at some point you are going to have an old dog.  (My collie is 12 and starting to have significant issues, so I'm starting to go through this.  So far I've been saying that my breaking point would be incontinence, although I guess I'll see if we get there.)

Looking at what the vet said, it boils down to 1) her physical issues are treatable for a reasonable quality of life, 2) she is rehomable, 3) it is unethical to put down a dog which is treatable and rehomable.  I'm guessing the vet is right about 1), although at some expense and the constant need to clean up pee,  and the vet is essentially wrong about 2).  So would it be unethical to put down a dog that has treatable conditions (although with caveats) but which is not in practice rehomable?  I guess you could email the practice and ask.

Other than that, I think that if you and your wife are in agreement, as I guess you are, then I think there is nothing wrong in giving your dog a good few last days and then having her put to sleep.  Maybe have a picture of the dog with the baby?  SisterX on her journal has just been through a very similar situation.

thd7t

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1314
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2018, 02:58:58 PM »
Did you tell the vet that your dog attacked and bit another dog? 

AZDude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2018, 03:00:52 PM »
I appreciate that you were straight with us about not liking or even wanting the dog, and considering you are clearly not a "dog person", it is commendable how much you time and money you have spent on this creature and that you are refusing to abandon it. Many people who are much bigger assholes than you would just dump the dog in the backyard on a chain and wait for it to die.

I don't think any of the behavioral traits are worth putting the dog down, and honestly I think with some commitment you could ease most of them. Especially the possessiveness of the toys and bones. If nothing else, you could simply take them away and never give them back. That would end the problem. I still understand the danger of having a dog like that near a baby. When my little one was really little, I had a very strict rule about never being near dogs off a leash. I also have a decent sized scar on my hand from where I was bitten by a dog as a teenager(my parents dog, which had never been aggressive toward me prior). With some effort I think you, dog, and baby could live together.

The health issues are borderline, but the one that really gets me is the not eating and puking. I'm not a vet, but that is a fairly clear sign of ill health. Usually when a dog stops eating, you know it is only a matter of a short time before you are euthanizing. I would find another vet and schedule the appointment. It might also be better to do it before the little one is old enough to notice the dog is missing. Explaining death to a toddler is not much fun.


frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2018, 03:06:43 PM »
On the other hand, I'm not sure that you and your wife are having a reasonable quality of life with this dog. 

Our quality of life has been shit for the last 2 years (unrelated to the dog, but she sure isn't helping).  It feels like the universe has just been tossing shit on me.  Now throw a baby that doesn't sleep in the mix, meaning we don't sleep either, and the dog is not getting the attention she needs.

If I had to relive the last 2 years of my life over and over I'd euthanize myself today.

Of the other things you mention, I rather take the view that the vet costs and the puking a couple of times a week are pretty much what you have to put up with in an old dog, and having a dog means that at some point you are going to have an old dog.  (My collie is 12 and starting to have significant issues, so I'm starting to go through this.  So far I've been saying that my breaking point would be incontinence, although I guess I'll see if we get there.)

But where do you draw the line?  Is $2k/yr reasonable? $3k? I feel bad putting a monetary value on my pet's life, but I think it's irresponsible not to put a value on it.   Should I rack up $20k worth of debt to deal with her issues over the next 5 years as it gets progressively worse?  The reality is that the money spent on the dog is money that can't be spent on me and my family, which means I have to trade more of my finite time in exchange for money instead of spending that time with my wife and kid.  Sure some amount of spending is warranted to keep her happy and alive, but a line has to be drawn at some point.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2018, 03:09:27 PM »
Did you tell the vet that your dog attacked and bit another dog?

Yes the vet knows.

I appreciate that you were straight with us about not liking or even wanting the dog, and considering you are clearly not a "dog person", it is commendable how much you time and money you have spent on this creature and that you are refusing to abandon it. Many people who are much bigger assholes than you would just dump the dog in the backyard on a chain and wait for it to die.

I don't think any of the behavioral traits are worth putting the dog down, and honestly I think with some commitment you could ease most of them. Especially the possessiveness of the toys and bones. If nothing else, you could simply take them away and never give them back. That would end the problem. I still understand the danger of having a dog like that near a baby. When my little one was really little, I had a very strict rule about never being near dogs off a leash. I also have a decent sized scar on my hand from where I was bitten by a dog as a teenager(my parents dog, which had never been aggressive toward me prior). With some effort I think you, dog, and baby could live together.

The health issues are borderline, but the one that really gets me is the not eating and puking. I'm not a vet, but that is a fairly clear sign of ill health. Usually when a dog stops eating, you know it is only a matter of a short time before you are euthanizing. I would find another vet and schedule the appointment. It might also be better to do it before the little one is old enough to notice the dog is missing. Explaining death to a toddler is not much fun.

She isn't able to let outside and run around, we can't take her on walks.  Laying on the floor and chewing her bones is one of the biggest joys she still has and I don't want to take that away from her.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5778
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2018, 03:53:16 PM »
FN: I think you are a good person with a tough decision.  We always agonize over when to put our old dogs to sleep.   We love our dogs but it does get old to deal with all the issues. A small dog peeing in the house is much different then a big dog.  Also it gets very expensive.  we lost 2 old dogs last year and their meds for each one cost 200/month/each.   Now our big old dog has meds costing about the same. We look at quality of life-are there more good days then bad?  Do they have pain that can't be controlled?  If it's a big dog it must be able to walk.  We are kinder to our animals then we are to people and euthanasia is sometimes the kindest thing we can do. 

bluebelle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
  • Location: Toronto
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 03:56:55 PM »
Sucks about the dog, but Iíd bet all the miserable obedience issues which fuels your hate for the dog - likely are due to lack of structured training. My wife and I have an 11 month old super high drive high energy German Shepherd. He gets 1-2 hrs of walks a day, 30-60 minutes structured obedience. On round 2 of group obedience, and we read four books on dog training and made a 12 page guide before getting him. You get out what you put in.
this seems like a cruel and judgemental thing to say to someone agnognizing over what to do about their elderly dog. 

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 03:58:28 PM »
I just got home from work. Apparently she hasn't eaten since her "last meal" yesterday at 4pm, and has thrown up 3 times today. 😔

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5778
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 04:05:02 PM »
In home euthanasia is more expensive here but worth every penny because the dog is not stressed out by going to the vet.   Not eating and puking are signs that it is over.

RyanAtTanagra

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
  • Location: SF Bay, CA
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2018, 04:11:24 PM »
Sucks about the dog, but Iíd bet all the miserable obedience issues which fuels your hate for the dog - likely are due to lack of structured training. My wife and I have an 11 month old super high drive high energy German Shepherd. He gets 1-2 hrs of walks a day, 30-60 minutes structured obedience. On round 2 of group obedience, and we read four books on dog training and made a 12 page guide before getting him. You get out what you put in.
this seems like a cruel and judgemental thing to say to someone agnognizing over what to do about their elderly dog.

Thanks, I was about to say the same thing.

Man, that's a tough decision.  I am forever grateful my dog went downhill so quickly I barely had time to process it, much less have to make the decision.  Bravo for agonizing so much over a dog you don't even like.  I would say, make the call when you feel like you won't regret it afterwards, because as you said, it's irreversible, and you don't want to be left wondering if you did the right thing.

From what you've said (especially with today's events), I don't think it would be the wrong call to make, but it's hard when they're still wagging and excited to see you.  What's your SO thinking?  Is she wanting you to make the call so she doesn't have to?  Or has she been on the fence the past two years too?

G-dog

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14347
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2018, 04:12:39 PM »
I havenít read all the responses - just your initial post.

Find a new vet (your vet is striking me as a self-serving asshole, pardon my goddamned French).

This dog is suffering, and has issues with aggression. Just because there are other options, they are not good options. Re-homing will likely be slow, and itís stressful for the dog to be crated essentially all day.

If the vet is so damned concerned, they can adopt her. 

Iíd consider reporting that vet.... the behavior is beyond the pale IMHO.

FYI: Iíve spent massive $$ treating my pets - such that Pete or Sol or someone would facepinch me so hard so many times. I do not take putting down a pet lightly. I probably err on the wrong side and keep treating beyond real quality of life.

Sorry you are dealing with this - itís hard.


dandypandys

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 455
  • Age: 43
  • Location: USA
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2018, 04:23:43 PM »
That vet sounds horrible!
I think you made the right decision in the first place. What a shame the vet made you doubt it.. they put such a guilt trip on you.

Optimiser

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 568
  • Age: 36
  • Location: PNW
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2018, 05:11:52 PM »
I don't own a dog currently, but grew up with dogs and like them.  To me the time to euthanize a pet is when the cost to keep them alive exceeds the cost to replace them. Losing a pet sucks, but you knew you were going to outlive them when you brought them home.

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1809
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2018, 05:50:51 PM »
@fluffmuffin @BayAreaFrugal

Yeah - when someone starts off a post about their 10 year old dog in failing health with, ďI donít like the dog, Iíve never liked the dog,Ē and then complains about their obedience and lack of training, I HIGHLY doubt that dog got the structured training it needs. Doesnít seem logical ďI never liked the dog but yeah - I spent countless hours training her and walking her.Ē I doubt it.

Obedience classes donít mean crap unless you take everything youíve learned and practice it every single day. Our obedience classes are maybe a 10% improvement to what we have taught our dog on his own. Itís very rare that people with dog problems are legitimately following all the right steps with training, exercise, and socialization.

Sure, some dogs arenít as smart as others but even that has its limits. I had a chocolate lab for 13 years before my GSD, so this also isnít my first rodeo.

Anyways - this is a side step to the actual problem.

NewPerspective

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2018, 06:03:56 PM »
@fluffmuffin @BayAreaFrugal

Yeah - when someone starts off a post about their 10 year old dog in failing health with, ďI donít like the dog, Iíve never liked the dog,Ē and then complains about their obedience and lack of training, I HIGHLY doubt that dog got the structured training it needs. Doesnít seem logical ďI never liked the dog but yeah - I spent countless hours training her and walking her.Ē I doubt it.

Obedience classes donít mean crap unless you take everything youíve learned and practice it every single day. Our obedience classes are maybe a 10% improvement to what we have taught our dog on his own. Itís very rare that people with dog problems are legitimately following all the right steps with training, exercise, and socialization.

Sure, some dogs arenít as smart as others but even that has its limits. I had a chocolate lab for 13 years before my GSD, so this also isnít my first rodeo.

Anyways - this is a side step to the actual problem.

Just to give another point of view.  We have a two year old GSD (working line, Czech pedigree), a Sheltie and a Chihuahua mix.  I would actually say the GSD is the easiest of the three.  She def needs exercise but she is the most trainable, the most BIDDABLE and the most handler sensitive.  I don't particularly "like" our sheltie (he is 10 and most definitely part of the family.  I love him but I wouldn't get another sheltie) and he was raised the same way as the GSD (this is our second working line GSD, both raised with us from puppies).   Yes training helps any dog but again, when a dog isn't as willing to please and work with you, it makes a difference.  We've also fostered several dogs over the years.    Generally speaking, the "dumber" the dog, the easier they are.  IMO an easy dog is one that has very low activity requirements and low intelligence or one that is motivated and has a lot of drive (either to to please you or for some external reward).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 06:09:30 PM by NewPerspective »

NewPerspective

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2018, 07:06:56 PM »
OP, as someone else mentioned a vet that will do at home euthanasia might be a good option.  We have several where I live and they seem to be very well regarded.

In your situation the thing that would most concern me is the food/toy aggression and your child.  Personally that would be the deciding factor.  If I felt I could manage it I probably wouldn't euthanize at this point (in general, the other issues are fairly minor and won't really matter in 5 or 10 years).   If you decide to try and manage it I would read up on dealing with resource guarding.  Some of our more instinctive reactions, like telling the dog no for growling, can actually escalate the problem. 

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2018, 07:10:34 PM »
Get a new vet and let your dog go.  Don't get another dog until your children are older and bigger.

Reynolds531

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 298
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2018, 07:58:28 PM »
[quote

If I had to relive the last 2 years of my life over and over I'd euthanize myself today.
[/quote]

I literally just spit my drink out.

I can't offer any advice really, but thank you for making me feel better about my cat, who eats a plastic bag and barfs it all over the house. My kitchen looked like a murder scene the other day.

I used to also have a semi aggressive dog. He only bit my ex wife. God I miss that dog.

bogart

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2018, 08:57:48 PM »
I'm sorry you're dealing with this decision.

I'm 99% sure I wouldn't keep a dog that I thought likely to threaten the safety of my infant, and as you say, rehoming your dog doesn't seem like a reasonable option.

I have friends who have a retired-but-comfortable (not generally in pain) horse who needs a surgical procedure that requires that the horse be put on a trailer (taken to a sterile vet facility for surgery) to get the issue treated (or be euthanized, if it can't be treated).  For unrelated reasons, the horse is terrified of trailers, and trying to get her on one is dangerous to humans.  I won't bore you with details, but were it me, I'm pretty sure I'd euthanize the horse.  I haven't told my friends this, as they don't seem interested in pursuing that option.  But the combination of the danger, the money required for the treatment, and the age of the horse (like your dog, not at the end of life, but not that far from it, either) makes it seem to me a reasonable choice.

I don't think euthanizing the dog is the "right" choice and not euthanizing the dog is the "wrong" choice, but neither do I think the reverse is true.  I concur with others who suggest that if you do decide to euthanize, perhaps giving the dog whatever her idea of a "good day" followed by at-home euthanasia might be a kind way to approach it. 

I hope you're able to find a solution that doesn't add to your or the dog's stress (if you e.g. do pursue rehoming her) and that keeps your child safe.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
  • Location: Avalon
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2018, 02:54:10 AM »

But where do you draw the line?  Is $2k/yr reasonable? $3k? I feel bad putting a monetary value on my pet's life, but I think it's irresponsible not to put a value on it.   Should I rack up $20k worth of debt to deal with her issues over the next 5 years as it gets progressively worse?  The reality is that the money spent on the dog is money that can't be spent on me and my family, which means I have to trade more of my finite time in exchange for money instead of spending that time with my wife and kid.  Sure some amount of spending is warranted to keep her happy and alive, but a line has to be drawn at some point.
I was concerned enough about my answers to this question in relation to my dog that I got pet health insurance for him: I can think about what is best for him without worrying about the cost.  And yes, I know that's not the mustachian way, but it worked for me.  It's a reasonable cost because I got it a long time ago and there are no exclusions for existing conditions.  On the other hand, 10 years of not paying insurance premiums would have paid for a fair number of meds now.

That doesn't help you now, of course.  I agree you need to decide what you are able and willing to afford and stick to that: I think putting the financial health of your family in jeopardy for an ailing pet is not a good balance.  I think pets are persons but not human, so they deserve our protection and consideration but do not have the human "right to life at all costs".

In your particular case, given that this is not just a matter of the dog's health issues but also a safety and quality of life issue, for you, your family and for the dog, I would not fault you for finding a new vet and giving your dog a few last good days before having her humanely euthanised.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8798
  • Registered member
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2018, 03:09:00 AM »
Youíve got plenty of validation so far but Iíll just add more

It sounds like the dog isnít having a good life, and the treatments would not help that.  I would never casually put a dog down but it seems like youíve done more than enough here.  You do not have an infinite financial responsibility, even if there was a magical $1 million cure pill.

If nobody will do it, thereís always an exit bag, although i suppose the original vet might try to follow up on the welfare of the dog


fluffmuffin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
  • Location: VA
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2018, 05:09:32 AM »
@use2betrix why do you need this to be the OPís fault? What does that possibly contribute, other than making him feel worse about a situation thatís already difficult and painful enough?

And yes, anyone who has ever taken an obedience class knows that theyíre useless without consistent work outside of class. But I promise you that you can follow all the steps, spend a lot of time on the phone with your local shelterís behavioral specialist (a wonderful resource, wish more shelters had them), do all the work...and some dogs are still going to be difficult. Thatís a possibility with any autonomous  living being that you invite into your home.

My old dog was perfect and I loved her 100%. My current dog, well, I love her and sheís part of the family, but there are days when I donít like her all that much. That doesnít make me a bad dog owner or mean that Iím not committed to giving her an excellent standard of care. It means that I (and the OP) are human beings who can have complex emotions.

Khaetra

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 626
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2018, 05:11:05 AM »
Maybe check with the Humane Society?  I volunteer at a no-kill one but the one in town does put them down and they will put down pets for a 'donation' (usually $75-$100) which goes to help feed the the animals they're caring for.

debbie does duncan

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2018, 09:16:09 AM »
Since no one is having a good time here....it is time to let the dog go. Find another vet and be free. Only you can tell how much suffering the dog is in.

Sibley

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3695
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2018, 09:19:14 AM »
You have a dog that is highly dog aggressive, has attacked another dog, and is not safe around children. There are a lot of shelters that would euthanize just based on those facts. There's a lot more that wouldn't euthanize simply because they wouldn't accept him anyway.

Add the medical issues on top of it, and I really can't imagine that this dog has a good quality of life.

For future: you need a new vet, this one is incapable of considering the big picture. Medical is NOT the only consideration here, and it is a disservice to the dog to not take the whole picture into consideration.

Jouer

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 398
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2018, 09:31:16 AM »
Reason to euthanize a pet: remove suffering of the pet
Not a reason to euthanize a pet: remove suffering of the human

Whatever you decide, please do not get another dog. It sounds like you didn't do such a great job with training this one and you admitted that you weren't really up for it. The health issues aren't your fault but the behavioral stuff might be. As someone said up-thread: with pets you get out of it what you put into it.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5778
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2018, 09:36:50 AM »
People please stop telling him not to get another pet. If you read the posts he says he does NOT want another pet.   He has done right by this dog and now it is time to say goodbye. It is a very hard decision which his stupid vet made harder.  I love dogs but being a good pet owner is knowing when it is time to let the pet go.

RyanAtTanagra

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
  • Location: SF Bay, CA
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2018, 09:37:18 AM »
Reason to euthanize a pet: remove suffering of the pet
Not a reason to euthanize a pet: remove suffering of the human

Whatever you decide, please do not get another dog. It sounds like you didn't do such a great job with training this one and you admitted that you weren't really up for it. The health issues aren't your fault but the behavioral stuff might be. As someone said up-thread: with pets you get out of it what you put into it.

Maybe you were too busy being self righteous and feeling good about yourself to notice the parts about the dog's quality of life continually decreasing over the past couple years.

Spendy Stache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2018, 09:37:28 AM »
+1 for find a new vet. I'm sure there are many amazing vets out there, but for some reason, I've had a really hard time finding vets that are reasonable about this kind of thing. My dog got a tumor in his rectum removed 1.5 years ago, and they did some tests and decided the tumor could be cancerous, but no definitive answer. The vet recommended chemo - the dog was 10 years old! That sounded nuts on so many levels. Why pay that much money for an old dog to have miserable treatments?? We opted to just wait and see, and the dog is just fine.

I love my dogs and feel like they are part of the family, but there are a whole host of cost, quality of life, and age of the pet considerations that go into this decision, so IMHO it's totally unreasonable for the vet to be passing judgement on the decision you and your wife landed on. You upheld a commitment to take care of this dog for her lifetime, even though you didn't actively make that commitment. You should feel good about that.

katsiki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Age: 39
  • Location: La.
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2018, 09:42:36 AM »
You have a dog that is highly dog aggressive, has attacked another dog, and is not safe around children. There are a lot of shelters that would euthanize just based on those facts. There's a lot more that wouldn't euthanize simply because they wouldn't accept him anyway.

Add the medical issues on top of it, and I really can't imagine that this dog has a good quality of life.

For future: you need a new vet, this one is incapable of considering the big picture. Medical is NOT the only consideration here, and it is a disservice to the dog to not take the whole picture into consideration.
+1.  When other animals and certainly humans are at risk, this is the necessary call.  I love animals and have 2 dogs.


frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2018, 10:01:34 AM »
Reason to euthanize a pet: remove suffering of the pet
Not a reason to euthanize a pet: remove suffering of the human

Whatever you decide, please do not get another dog. It sounds like you didn't do such a great job with training this one and you admitted that you weren't really up for it. The health issues aren't your fault but the behavioral stuff might be. As someone said up-thread: with pets you get out of it what you put into it.

So maybe I should get a crate to crate my son to keep him segregated from the dog?

I'm glad you're an expert and are able to evaluate not only the effort that's been put into training the dog, but the dog's acceptance of training and subsequent behavioral issues and assign blame appropriately.  You are truly amazing and gifted to be able to make that determination over the internet without ever meeting me, my wife, or the dog and having no context outside of a single forum post.

I'm also an expert at evaluating people over the internet that I've never met, and my determination is that you're a fucking asshole.  Please GTFO out of my thread and take your self righteous opinions with you.

I know I've violated forum rule #1 and I don't care.

Lady SA

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Midwest
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2018, 10:20:47 AM »
Dog aggressive (documented cases of biting!), kid aggressive, and also age/health on the decline? This sounds like a no-brainer situation, and I'm sorry the vet threw all this into doubt. I love dogs, but I also know that there are always bad apples in a bunch that are extremely resistant to training no matter how consistent you are.

I'd get my ducks in a row, document the reasoning, and then I'd find a vet that is more reasonable. I'd keep the information (document the dog bite, document the aggression towards your child, your training regimen, etc) because idk if the old vet sounds like someone who would check on the welfare of the animal later and then report you for animal cruelty or something. Cover your ass in that regard, just in case. I would hate for this drama to continue and drag you through the mud even more because of some self-righteous vet who is ignoring all these red flags.

thd7t

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1314
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2018, 11:49:03 AM »
To those who say "you get out what you put in" about dogs, this is true only to a point.     There are dogs who are just not well balanced.  We don't typically assign blame when humans have various mental conditions.  Why would we do so with animals.

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6965
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2018, 11:55:40 AM »
I sure hope no one wants to put you down when you're old, grumpy, in a wheelchair and suffering from urinary incontinence and skin tags growing from your eyelids.

I think it was Ghandi who said that you can tell a lot about the greatness of a nation by the way the animals are treated.

Personally, at some point I think I'd want to be put down if I'm miserable.  When and at what level of misery?  Well, that's up to me to decide.

But dogs can't talk.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2018, 11:58:40 AM »
Dog aggressive (documented cases of biting!), kid aggressive, and also age/health on the decline? This sounds like a no-brainer situation, and I'm sorry the vet threw all this into doubt. I love dogs, but I also know that there are always bad apples in a bunch that are extremely resistant to training no matter how consistent you are.

I'd get my ducks in a row, document the reasoning, and then I'd find a vet that is more reasonable. I'd keep the information (document the dog bite, document the aggression towards your child, your training regimen, etc) because idk if the old vet sounds like someone who would check on the welfare of the animal later and then report you for animal cruelty or something. Cover your ass in that regard, just in case. I would hate for this drama to continue and drag you through the mud even more because of some self-righteous vet who is ignoring all these red flags.

It's my understanding that a dog is considered property, and while there are laws against being cruel and neglecting an animal, there is no law preventing me from destroying my property for any reason.  ie I can have my dog put to sleep without providing any justification other than I want to.  That's definitely not the case, but that was my understanding of the law.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: When to euthanize a dog
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2018, 12:02:35 PM »
I sure hope no one wants to put you down when you're old, grumpy, in a wheelchair and suffering from urinary incontinence and skin tags growing from your eyelids.

I think it was Ghandi who said that you can tell a lot about the greatness of a nation by the way the animals are treated.

Personally, at some point I think I'd want to be put down if I'm miserable.  When and at what level of misery?  Well, that's up to me to decide.

But dogs can't talk.

My wife's grandma just died of cancer this week.  She can talk and professed numerous times that she was ready and wanted to die for the last 2 years, ever since her husband passed.