Author Topic: When is It Time To Leave a Job?  (Read 10771 times)

oldtoyota

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When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« on: May 31, 2013, 10:01:09 AM »
I'm a bit torn here. Like the job, the people, the boss, the mission.

However, I accidentally found out I am paid less than a person coming in a step below me. I was hired to do one job and--because I am good--accepted more responsibilities. And, of course, I did not get more money.

So, I will ask for a raise (my reviews have been good). For asking for the raise, I plan to put together the following info:

...

Meanwhile, I am applying to jobs at the level I should be at. Those jobs are paying $10K to $20K more, which supports the data I found showing I'm paid $10K less than average.

Any thoughts?

I won't say something dumb like I need the money for X, Y or Z. I intend to stay focused on my value to the organization.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:15:16 PM by oldtoyota »

Jamesqf

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 10:24:23 AM »
Best time to leave is when you have a solid offer from another employer, with either more money or more interesting work (or both).  Then you go to old employer and say "I really like it here, but this other offer is so darned attractive..."

oldtoyota

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 10:53:44 AM »
Best time to leave is when you have a solid offer from another employer, with either more money or more interesting work (or both).  Then you go to old employer and say "I really like it here, but this other offer is so darned attractive..."

Thanks. I've been thinking about that angle too, yet I'm concerned it would not go over well. Maybe they'd keep me short term and get rid of me later because they'd be steamed I did that. Too hard to know for certain.

I want to present my case, listen to what they say, and then possibly leave if they do not meet me at least part way.

Also, I am a woman and think this plays into how many orgs pay women less because we do not ask and are not "supposed" to ask.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 10:55:22 AM by oldtoyota »

jrhampt

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 10:58:43 AM »
Best time to leave is when you have a solid offer from another employer, with either more money or more interesting work (or both).  Then you go to old employer and say "I really like it here, but this other offer is so darned attractive..."

I have done this with successful results...I ended up getting a 13k raise from the current employer as a counteroffer.

To address your concerns, I have been here for almost 2 years since getting the counteroffer and there seem to be no hard feelings.  I was considerably below market value at the time and receiving top performance ratings, so that helped with the negotiations.

I am also female and conscious of these issues.  You have to make a point of asking because they won't offer on their own. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 11:01:34 AM by jrhampt »

oldtoyota

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 11:00:40 AM »
Best time to leave is when you have a solid offer from another employer, with either more money or more interesting work (or both).  Then you go to old employer and say "I really like it here, but this other offer is so darned attractive..."

I have done this with successful results...I ended up getting a 13k raise from the current employer as a counteroffer.

Hm...Interesting to know it worked.

Nate R

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 11:11:00 AM »
Also, I am a woman and think this plays into how many orgs pay women less because we do not ask and are not "supposed" to ask.

I don't want to start a gender war, but plant a seed of thought here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

Look at the other links at the bottom as well.
My point is that the gender wage gap, if it exists at all, isn't as big as headlines leave many people to believe.


DoubleDown

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 11:12:16 AM »

--charts showing salaries in my field (mine is $10K lower than the average);
--kudos emails received from internal clients;
--numbers showing the "bazillion" dollars I've made for the company, which I update boss on on a reg basis;
--the extra work I've done to educate people across the org;
--a mention of how my role has expanded since I was hired and so I'd like my compensation to reflect that and be more in line with the market rate.


I think your plan above is well thought out and likely to be well received. Personally, I would not reveal any info or charts about average salaries in your field, but that's your call. I would only bring that up if your employer responds that you are already earning enough or too much. Keep the conversation focused on the benefits you bring to the company and that you deserve a substantial increase in pay.

Having a higher offer from another company is always an excellent negotiating position, but I agree that it would be perhaps premature at this point. I'd first see what your employer says about a raise, then if they do not make a satisfactory offer, they should not be surprised at all when you return later with a competing offer and resignation letter, which will likely prompt them to do whatever they can to keep you. I don't think there would be any hard feelings from this; your employer probably has little loyalty towards you and understands it's all business decisions.

oldtoyota

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 11:20:50 AM »
Also, I am a woman and think this plays into how many orgs pay women less because we do not ask and are not "supposed" to ask.

I don't want to start a gender war, but plant a seed of thought here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

Look at the other links at the bottom as well.
My point is that the gender wage gap, if it exists at all, isn't as big as headlines leave many people to believe.

Thank you for the article. The person being hired below me at more $$ is a man. I think it's because men will often ask for waaay more. The article makes some good points, yet the part below does not consider that potential clients of a business could still discriminate:

"Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make, which, since they have no boss, means it's independent of discrimination. The reason for the disparity, according to a Rochester Institute of Technology study, is that money is the primary motivator for 76% of men versus only 29% of women. Women place a higher premium on shorter work weeks, proximity to home, fulfillment, autonomy, and safety, according to Nemko."

FlorenceMcGillicutty

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 11:26:49 AM »
I think you ultimately need to decide if you like your job and want to stay and work there vs. taking on a new opportunity elsewhere. If you want to stay but the salary is only the problem, then you absolutely ask for a raise. Do you like your job? Is the main complaint the salary?

Assuming you decide you want to stay and you go for the raise, I would:

1. Schedule a formal meeting to chat

2. Let them know that you've been doing some research and learned you're underpaid for the job. Don't give them specific numbers like $10k. That boxes you in. Just say that you're underpaid for your level AND that you outperform those at your current level so you you're looking for your compensation to better match your value.  i.e., you want to be at the highest end of competitive for your level.

3. Have all the data ready, but don't present it unless you need it. Otherwise, I think it's a little awkward. You don't have to convince them of your value--they should already know it. However, if they ask about your research, then verbally tell them the things that backup your case. Then say that you'd be happy to provide documentation if they want it. Don't give them data that has specific numbers on salary. Again, that boxes you in. If someone at a lower level makes more than you, they know you're underpaid too. Remember that.

4. Stress that you like the job, the work, people, etc, but that this is something you'd like to see addressed. Just leave it at that.

5. Finally, DO NOT GIVE THEM A NUMBER. Confidently present yourself, let them know you want more $$ (or other types of compensation if that's available), but DO NOT give the first number. Let them come to you first and then counter higher. Otherwise you risk lowballing yourself. Once they come with a number, you MUST counter, even if it's higher than you thought.

As far as being a woman, research shows that women can be successful negotiators. One thing that women often have to do more than men is to provide strong reasons for the raise, and you've got that covered. So if you decide to go this route, just know that the market is on your side. In my experience, the worst thing that can happen is they say no and you respond by aggressively looking for another job.

Btw, you're right to focus on your value to the company vs. what you need or want in your personal life. I can't even imagine doing the latter. I'd feel like an idiot.
 

Dee18

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 11:37:50 AM »
Good for you for asking!  I believed I was making less than counterparts at my job, but only became certain last spring.  Soon thereafter in my annual review I (rather briefly) said that I knew others were getting an additional stipend for directing programs less complicated than the one I direct, while I was not receiving a stipend.  Not only did I get the stipend, I got double the average raise for the year. 

Florence, and others, gave you great suggestions.  Keep it brief, calm and friendly.  Try to go in thinking, "they love me here and will want to accommodate me," rather than, "they've been screwing me over and I'm sick and tired of it."

FlorenceMcGillicutty

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2013, 11:40:11 AM »
I don't want to start a gender war, but plant a seed of thought here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

Look at the other links at the bottom as well.
My point is that the gender wage gap, if it exists at all, isn't as big as headlines leave many people to believe.

Nate, the wage gap isn't all because of choices women make. I'm being generous here and taking out the maternity leave effect on a woman's lifetime job income, but even with that there's still a 10% penalty for being a woman. http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09/59658/what-causes-the-gender-wage-gap/

I've worked in places where everyone's salary is transparent and it's been painfully obvious that men are paid more on average and often for subpar work. At least in my experience, I've found this to be especially true with men over 40 because they're seen as the family breadwinner and therefore deserve more money. As a hardworking woman who often outpaces the men that are 20+ years older than me, it's absolutely maddening! That said, I've closed the gap in my own wages over the years by reading up and becoming a smarter negotiator. If I'm going to be doing a better job than my male counterparts, they'd sure as hell better be paying me at LEAST the same.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 11:42:38 AM by FlorenceMcGillicutty »

skizz

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2013, 11:45:55 AM »
I think your plan above is well thought out and likely to be well received. Personally, I would not reveal any info or charts about average salaries in your field, but that's your call. I would only bring that up if your employer responds that you are already earning enough or too much. Keep the conversation focused on the benefits you bring to the company and that you deserve a substantial increase in pay.
I'd like to second the idea about not including any salary info for your field. This is just my gut feeling, but I think that your boss and your boss' boss probably know roughly how much each of their employees make, and what the average is for different positions under their management. Employees with good knowledge/attitude/execution are valuable to a company, so a reasonable boss should be willing to at least discuss the idea of a raise, especially since they know that you are being paid under market value.
I successfully asked for a raise about 2 years ago using a similar strategy to the one you outlined, but I don't think I was nearly as detailed in the information I presented.

mustachecat

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 11:48:38 AM »
No specific advice, but wanted to recommend the blog Ask a Manager (http://www.askamanager.org) as a resource. I find her recommendations so spot-on. Her "salary" category has a ton of great content around asking for raises.

chicagomeg

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2013, 12:45:20 PM »
No specific advice, but wanted to recommend the blog Ask a Manager (http://www.askamanager.org) as a resource. I find her recommendations so spot-on. Her "salary" category has a ton of great content around asking for raises.

+1!! She's awesome!

netskyblue

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 01:04:48 PM »
I asked for a raise a couple of years ago, and received it.  I had been making 30k (gross) for several years, and they had suspended annual raises a while back.  I actually did have another job lined up, for 31k.  I sent my boss a lengthy email, saying I was requesting a raise to $35k because of x, y, & z, outlining the time I had worked for the company, the time since my last pay raise, the fact that I had been promoted to a different position several years before with no increase in pay, and all the things I had done to improve the department I had been promoted to in the prior years.  I did not mention the other job (though if he’d said no, I might have).  He texted me shortly after receiving the email and said he couldn’t agree more, and had the pay rate changed on my next paycheck.  (If I’d known all I had to do was ASK!)

As for the other job, when I told them I wouldn’t be accepting the full time position, they agreed to keep me part time evenings/weekends for the same rate of pay.

Jamesqf

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2013, 01:52:40 PM »
Also, I am a woman and think this plays into how many orgs pay women less because we do not ask and are not "supposed" to ask.

I don't think that's entirely a female thing.  I've never asked a current employer for more money (though I have bargained over starting salary &c when deciding whether to take a job).

SnackDog

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 03:54:39 PM »
If the company has an annual performance review process for salary adjustment and promotions, that is the best (and possibly only) time for you to secure a bump.  You should sit down with your boss soon, however, and discuss get her impression of your performance and what it would take to secure a promotion at the next opportunity.   If you are not currently promotable, what is the gap and how can we fill it before the next promo cycle?

oldtoyota

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2013, 08:12:25 PM »
Wow, thank you all for your helpful replies! I have a lot to think about. My goal--due to travel schedules and such--is to schedule this conversation 2-3 weeks from now and get the information I need.

Florence is right that I should not mention a number. Glad I asked about it here!

And I'd not thought to check askamanager, which is a blog I've found useful in the past.

Many thanks!!

mm1970

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 08:54:57 PM »
If the company has an annual performance review process for salary adjustment and promotions, that is the best (and possibly only) time for you to secure a bump.  You should sit down with your boss soon, however, and discuss get her impression of your performance and what it would take to secure a promotion at the next opportunity.   If you are not currently promotable, what is the gap and how can we fill it before the next promo cycle?
I disagree.  I've had the best luck getting money (for myself or my employees) off-cycle, when you are the *only* person asking.

When it's the performance review time, the answer is "you get 3%" (or worse, "there's only 3% for everyone, you get 1% because Joe is getting 5%").

Dynasty

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 09:51:34 PM »
I'd recommend you work with a career coach for a salary negotiation angle. If you are in the Seattle area, I can recommend a woman I've worked with on a few occasions. 

She is really good.

I've worked with her on salary negotiation and got a bigger raise than I ever thought possible. She did my resume a few years back and it was so good, I got my current job without even interviewing.

Money very well spent. And not really that much either.

ep114

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2013, 01:16:55 AM »
Lots of good suggestions here. Since you are on good terms with your boss, perhaps you could frame it as along the lines of "I really like my work here, and the new responsibilities I've taken on. I know I'm paid below market value. Can we talk about opportunities for advancement/ways to bridge the gap?..."   You might ultimately decide to leave, but since it sounds like you're happy there, and if there's room to develop further, maybe they can fix the salary issue for you.  A job you don't hate is pretty good for quality of life.

and on the topic of women's salaries, I just finished reading "Lean In"by Sheryl Sandberg, and whoa, lots of food for thought there. I highly recommend it.

nktokyo

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2013, 07:02:17 AM »
I would get some leverage, even if you don't plan to use it or even reveal it.

Remember it's (probably) not your bosses money... he's not paying you out of his salary. But for whatever reason someone might decide to take a stand for  and a signed offer letter is your safety net in case somebody decides to play hardball.

You have to be prepared to walk away. This is key. Otherwise you're stuck at your current level for evermore.

Every time I handed in my notice I got a counter offer. It's just business. They're not out to screw you or whatever, your salary matters the most to you only, these guys are all just focussed on making their numbers and if it's clear that being there helps them then you'll get a pay raise.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 07:03:49 AM by nktokyo »

killingxspree

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2013, 07:03:17 AM »
The best deals you make are the ones you're prepared to walk away from.

IF the following conditions are met:
- the low(er) salary is bothering you a lot
- you have other job prospects
- you've got the stones to pull this off...

... you walk into your bosses office and matter of factly tell him/her, you will be leaving if you don't get what you want. I would suggest not making the above tactic a bluff; be prepared to carry through with leaving if you don't get what you want. Since you're on good terms with your boss, you can do this with a smile and without it being combative. If you can get them to see your side of it, it'll go smoother.

Don't wave reference letters from clients or evidence of all the other stuff you're doing. Your value to the organization is either evident or it isn't. Just state it like fact and move on to your demands. If they really don't see your value, it's time to leave.

Sadly, at many, many companies I've worked for, you only get a raise by moving to a competitor.

Idk that sounds pretty hostile and like it may backfire if you ever need to use them as a referral.

nktokyo

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 07:05:03 AM »
The best deals you make are the ones you're prepared to walk away from.

IF the following conditions are met:
- the low(er) salary is bothering you a lot
- you have other job prospects
- you've got the stones to pull this off...

... you walk into your bosses office and matter of factly tell him/her, you will be leaving if you don't get what you want. I would suggest not making the above tactic a bluff; be prepared to carry through with leaving if you don't get what you want. Since you're on good terms with your boss, you can do this with a smile and without it being combative. If you can get them to see your side of it, it'll go smoother.

Don't wave reference letters from clients or evidence of all the other stuff you're doing. Your value to the organization is either evident or it isn't. Just state it like fact and move on to your demands. If they really don't see your value, it's time to leave.

Sadly, at many, many companies I've worked for, you only get a raise by moving to a competitor.

Idk that sounds pretty hostile and like it may backfire if you ever need to use them as a referral.

ALWAYS give your current employer the opportunity to counter. It may sound obvious but so many people get stressed and rushed and miss this.

pbkmaine

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2013, 08:27:21 AM »
After 30 years in the workforce, I am coming to believe that a big part of the difficulties we women face is how we are socialized. The message I got growing up was: "Play nice and do not promote yourself." Boys were being taught to compete, dammit.  It took me a really long time to get over this and a lot of mentoring from male bosses. One of my best mentors made a point of teaching me to argue rather than to give way. It is still hard. I think that's the point of Sheryl Sandberg's book. I have had to take two women at my workplace aside and tell them that if they wanted a promotion, they had to go in and ask for it. They just assumed their hard work would be recognized. And meanwhile, the powers that be assumed they were happy where they were. Women being such great team players. Be polite but firm when you do "The Ask" and DO NOT get emotional. There's no crying in baseball. 

nktokyo

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2013, 09:20:33 AM »

oldtoyota

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2013, 04:31:58 PM »
I'd recommend you work with a career coach for a salary negotiation angle. If you are in the Seattle area, I can recommend a woman I've worked with on a few occasions. 

She is really good.

I've worked with her on salary negotiation and got a bigger raise than I ever thought possible. She did my resume a few years back and it was so good, I got my current job without even interviewing.

Money very well spent. And not really that much either.

Interesting. Could you PM me her name?

oldtoyota

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2013, 04:35:52 PM »
Ever hear about the BATNA idea?
http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna

This reminds me of my early years when I was interviewing for a job. The salary my future boss suggested to me was way too low. I thanked her, stood up to leave, smiled, and said I could not accept that. She immediately increased the salary by an amount that made me happy.

The funny thing is that I was very young and honestly was ready to go if that was all she could offer. I was not even trying to negotiate!

nktokyo

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Re: When is It Time To Leave a Job?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:21 PM »
Still works now. Once you're prepared to walk away they no longer have any power in the negotiation.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!