Author Topic: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...  (Read 25782 times)

Meinurgill

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This question totally applies to other kinds of purchases--feel free to debate that here as well, please!

DH and I have been trying to buy a used CRV, Forester, or Rav4 (Yes, we need an SUV for DH’s hauling needs for his secondary business) for 3 weeks and it's been a damn nightmare. One problem after another--shitty dealers, cars with dirty oil, accident histories, bank loan fell through for an out-of-state private seller, cars selling just before we arrive to drive them, etc.

I can't wrap my mind around what is actually the more mustachian route to go. I'm starting to feel like it makes more sense to just buy a damn car with 50,000 miles and get on with my life. At least I haven't paid for the new car depreciation. We pop up over 100K and we start to feel like we aren’t getting a great deal—maybe save 1-3K tops over a vehicle with 70/80,000 miles, PLUS now you are looking at replacing the timing belt and water pump. 

So we have to get closer to 150,000 miles before the price starts to really drop and then we start to feel like we are throwing our money at a car that will be nearing 200,000 miles long before we have it paid off (theoretically anyway, on a 72 month term, 3.25% interest, nothing down--we are putting that money on higher interest debt instead; I drive 15 thousand miles and more a year). This has been a serious mindfuck for me.

Honestly, how would ya'll handle this? You've convinced me not to buy the seat covers and maybe even the remote start (as me again in February LOL), but what now? I'm not looking for validation or an excuse to buy so much as real advice through a mustachian lens. We are still working on incorporating these principles into our life and it's more challenging than I expected. TIA!

ketchup

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 01:46:28 PM »
I've found 120,000-150,000 to be a sweet spot for me in terms of depreciation.  If a 130,000 mile car gets me to 200,000 below it vaporizes into a could of dust, that's 70,000 miles.  To get double that many miles out a car (140,000, bought at 60,000), you'd pay a lot more than double for the car.  Any more than 150k and you're really not saving much and more likely to be buying someone else's headaches at that point.  And plenty of newer (1990+) cars can go well past 200k, but that's a good rule of thumb metric for depreciation.

But truly, how well the car was taken care of matters far more than the mileage.  And it's a lot more apparent at 150,000 than at 80,000.

Cheap would be buying a $200 scrapheap that burns a quart of oil per block and has no windshield.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 02:14:29 PM by ketchup »

Cassie

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 01:53:16 PM »
We buy our cars around 24-40,000 miles & then drive them for many years until they die.  My kids spend a few thousand but they don't seem to last long, often need expensive repairs, etc. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 02:01:47 PM »
So we have to get closer to 150,000 miles before the price starts to really drop and then we start to feel like we are throwing our money at a car that will be nearing 200,000 miles long before we have it paid off (theoretically anyway, on a 72 month term, 3.25% interest, nothing down--we are putting that money on higher interest debt instead; I drive 15 thousand miles and more a year). This has been a serious mindfuck for me.
What kind of dealer lets you buy a 150k miles car with a 72 month term? Probably not the kind that sells cars you are looking for.

Especially if this can be written off at least partly as a business expense, I would just splurge and get something newer, around 50k like you said. It doesn't matter if you saved two grand on a car if it's in the shop the week you need it for your business.

frugaliknowit

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 02:07:35 PM »
The cars you are interested are:

1.  In high demand.
2.  Not so great on gas.

Why does you guys feel you need a mini-suv with high mileage for hauling purposes and why "on credit".  What about an economy pickup or hatchback or rent a pickup as needed?

enpower

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 02:08:03 PM »
In the book "The Millionaire Next Door" the wealthy people choose a car that is 3-4 years old and buy to keep it for 10-15 years.

Benefit of this is you are more likely to buy a car without any problems, it is likely to be more reliable, the majority of the depreciation has been factored in the first 3-4 years since new, you are likely buying from someone who is upgrading for the sake of it rather than selling off a problematic car, they will last longer than if you bought older cars that lasted only 5 years or so, etc.

The flashy people buy a car brand new and loose all that depreciation at the start. The very poor buy cars that are almost dead and constantly have to pay repair bills or buy yet another car, over the long term this can end up being more costly.

Word of advice is to pay cash. Don't ever buy a car on credit.

Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 02:10:39 PM »

Cheap would be buying a $200 scrapheap that burns a quart of oil per block and has a no windshield.

Haha!

Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 02:24:19 PM »
Yes, I know--all of you are right. However, here's the sitch:

We need a hauler because my husband hauls live sound gear and recording gear for his business. Our original plan was to purchase something that could haul a trailer with a heavy load, but we figured out an alternative and this will just be used for the smaller loads, which allows us to buy the smallest possible hauler. But they are heavy loads nonetheless. His hauling does a number on vehicles, it broke the axle on a Conversion Ford E150 van (220,000 miles). So, yeah. Not to mention we have a small child and live in Michigan. I'm sorry if this isn't mustachian, but his safety in a 4WD vehicle on snowy roads is just more important to me than saving 5K. As to why I will drive the SUV on my commute, I have a significantly longer commute and it's more dangerous in the winter (highway driving in Michigan in February...scary). But we hope in a few years to replace my 2000 VW Golf(190,000 miles) with a Prius, and we are hoping by then I am no longer commuting so far. It would function as our about-town car and our car for short trips, and DH would use the small SUV for getting to work in town and hauling for his business. We felt like the smallest SUV we could find plus a Prius or compact hatchback is a pretty great combo. We thought about a minivan but we didn't feel that we needed that much space. We can do a hitch and a small trailer with the SUV if needed.

As for the loan? We have no choice. We have a hair on fire debt emergency. We are aggressively putting ALL of our extra cash on our highest interest rate debt. We are going to pay off $40+K in CC debt within 2-3 years, which is awesome. We were hoping not to purchase a vehicle until after that time so we could pay cash, but the van axle went, so we are stuck. It also needs new brakes and tires, and at 220,000 miles, our mechanic told us it wasn't worth it because he could easily find other problems once he gets in there and works on it. Actually, we will probably pay the new SUV off early, but for now the 72- month  term allows us to put all of the extra money we can into higher interest debt rather than putting it on a 3.25% car payment. We started out with a much shorter term and then realized it made no sense. Once the credit cars are paid, the next priority debt will be mortgage or car debt.

Make sense?

Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 02:26:31 PM »
All of that said, I'm not opposed to considering a car over 100K. The SUV is non-negotiable for us, as is the loan (we have no choice). But we have definitely looked at higher mileage options. Just trying to sort out the smartest way to go with this.

Eric

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 02:34:42 PM »
3 weeks doesn't seem like that long of timeframe to me, and you came close to buying a few cars.  You only need to find your one "match".  I'd stick to your guns for a while longer before paying more.  You can't afford the extra $5K. (or whatever)

okashira

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 02:38:30 PM »
Yes, I know--all of you are right. However, here's the sitch:

We need a hauler because my husband hauls live sound gear and recording gear for his business. Our original plan was to purchase something that could haul a trailer with a heavy load, but we figured out an alternative and this will just be used for the smaller loads, which allows us to buy the smallest possible hauler. But they are heavy loads nonetheless. His hauling does a number on vehicles, it broke the axle on a Conversion Ford E150 van (220,000 miles). So, yeah. Not to mention we have a small child and live in Michigan. I'm sorry if this isn't mustachian, but his safety in a 4WD vehicle on snowy roads is just more important to me than saving 5K. As to why I will drive the SUV on my commute, I have a significantly longer commute and it's more dangerous in the winter (highway driving in Michigan in February...scary). But we hope in a few years to replace my 2000 VW Golf(190,000 miles) with a Prius, and we are hoping by then I am no longer commuting so far. It would function as our about-town car and our car for short trips, and DH would use the small SUV for getting to work in town and hauling for his business. We felt like the smallest SUV we could find plus a Prius or compact hatchback is a pretty great combo. We thought about a minivan but we didn't feel that we needed that much space. We can do a hitch and a small trailer with the SUV if needed.

As for the loan? We have no choice. We have a hair on fire debt emergency. We are aggressively putting ALL of our extra cash on our highest interest rate debt. We are going to pay off $40+K in CC debt within 2-3 years, which is awesome. We were hoping not to purchase a vehicle until after that time so we could pay cash, but the van axle went, so we are stuck. It also needs new brakes and tires, and at 220,000 miles, our mechanic told us it wasn't worth it because he could easily find other problems once he gets in there and works on it. Actually, we will probably pay the new SUV off early, but for now the 72- month  term allows us to put all of the extra money we can into higher interest debt rather than putting it on a 3.25% car payment. We started out with a much shorter term and then realized it made no sense. Once the credit cars are paid, the next priority debt will be mortgage or car debt.

Make sense?

Not really.
You will choose the more expensive vehicle that gets worse gas mileage for your longer commute? Whaaa?
And after our extensive snow tire threads on cars vs SUV's in the winter. Sigh.
You also don't need an SUV for a hitch and a trailer. I can put a hitch on my Golf for cheap.

If someone put a gun to your husbands head, and told him he had to do a concert with all his sound gear, but he had to fit it in your Golf, could he make it happen?
If the seats fold down in the Golf, I bet that he could.
Seriously, my Golf can fit alot of really huge shit. Like 10+ full size wheels/tires. WITH the hatch closed.
What if you removed the front seat. Or the back seat.

For gods sake, you have a credit card debt emergency.


Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 02:59:23 PM »
Make sense?
Nope!  I was going to hold my punches, but I can't.  I'm from Michigan.  I spent more winters than I would have liked living in Michigan.  You do NOT need 4WD for highway driving in Michigan unless you live in the UP.  I commuted on highways all winter long with a front wheel drive car.  The 'secret' is to slow down.  My siblings have totaled many 4WD vehicles by driving too quickly (they've learned their lesson to slow down and now drive front wheel drive cars).  My winter accident count...1...at 16.  I dented my Dad's car when I slid off the road when I hit the brakes too quickly on a sheet of ice. 

Meinurgill, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I think you need to grasp your situation.  You have $40k in credit card debt.  Please keep an open mind and realize an SUV/car loan is not a smart or necessary move.
I've lived in MI my entire life, I've commuted daily on the highway on winter roads for almost 15 years in a VW Golf and a Pontiac Sunfire (in college) and have never had an accident on them. I drive slow as shit. I know how to drive in the snow. I learned how to drive on the ice by doing donuts in a conversion van on an ice-covered parking lot when I was 14 (that's how my father, who was from a generational family of motorcycle ice racers, taught us to handle the hazardous road conditions). My point is that my concern is for my son's safety. When it was just me, I sucked it up and drove the Golf. But times have changed for my little family. Not to mention, we live on the lakeshore and the lake effect blizzard conditions have been escalating each year. I've lived on the East side of the state and there's no question that the road conditions are better there in the winter--not sure where you lived?

Safety aside, our baby is also the reason we are trying to get our financial shit together and make the right choice here. So, on that note, how do we handle hubby's hauling needs in a sedan? If you can convince me that it makes sense, then I'm open to it. This is how we learn! I just found a 2009 Forester with 87,000 miles on Craigslist for 13K. Is that seriously too much to spend? Or is it the gas mileage we are concerned with?

PeteD01

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 03:00:10 PM »
We were hoping not to purchase a vehicle until after that time so we could pay cash, but the van axle went, so we are stuck. It also needs new brakes and tires, and at 220,000 miles, our mechanic told us it wasn't worth it because he could easily find other problems once he gets in there and works on it.

That E150 is one serviceable vehicle. If the engine is still good and the body is not falling apart you could keep that van running for years for a few thousand $$ and probably not all at once. I mean, a rear axle and tires and a brake job is no reason to get rid of an E150. Parts are dirt cheap too. And the stuff you are hauling broke the axle on the van? How do you think a wimpy little SUV is going to like hat sort of service?

Now for the "if it is worth spending money on it" - there are two sides to that: It is definitely not worth spending any money on it if you then turn around and try to sell it - you are not going to get your money back. The other side is the use value for YOU driving it into the ground over the next few years - that is independent of the market value of the van.

And what the hell is your mechanic talking about?
He could easily find other things?
Could he, really, but hasn't even looked yet, right? Jeez...
Try to find someone who knows these vans and get a second opinion.
Of course, if the engine is shot or the body rotted out, you be out of luck.

JPier

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 03:06:26 PM »
Hi, bought wife a 2011 Hyundai Tucson limited a few months ago
Low millage 57,???
Got 2.9% interest rate
Has warranty and complementary service for 1 year
Certified

Wife wanted a suv
I got her one
Wife wanted some extras
She got it
Wife wanted almost new t
Done
Kids are happy,shes happy...my money is in bank BIG PLUS :)
Besides its a company expense,lol 

They had the awd model,but we didnt care for awd because of the mpg penalty
Here in Florida isn't a necessity.

Hyundai got good reviews, i have owned 3 hyundai vehicles in the past.
Tucson,not the best mpg around 26-27 combined.
Not the most spacious
Love it or hate it looks,lol

Easy to work with around engine,no timing belt to replace,parts are cheap
Easy maintenance schedule = low cost to operate.
No need for synthetic fluids or fancy expensive stuff.

For my towing and hauling needs i got a 2500 diesel sprinter van :)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:10:09 PM by JPier »

Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 03:06:54 PM »
We were hoping not to purchase a vehicle until after that time so we could pay cash, but the van axle went, so we are stuck. It also needs new brakes and tires, and at 220,000 miles, our mechanic told us it wasn't worth it because he could easily find other problems once he gets in there and works on it.

That E150 is one serviceable vehicle. If the engine is still good and the body is not falling apart you could keep that van running for years for a few thousand $$ and probably not all at once. I mean, a rear axle and tires and a brake job is no reason to get rid of an E150. Parts are dirt cheap too. And the stuff you are hauling broke the axle on the van? How do you think a wimpy little SUV is going to like hat sort of service?

Now for the "if it is worth spending money on it" - there are two sides to that: It is definitely not worth spending any money on it if you then turn around and try to sell it - you are not going to get your money back. The other side is the use value for YOU driving it into the ground over the next few years - that is independent of the market value of the van.

And what the hell is your mechanic talking about?
He could easily find other things?
Could he, really, but hasn't even looked yet, right? Jeez...
Try to find someone who knows these vans and get a second opinion.
Of course, if the engine is shot or the body rotted out, you be out of luck.

I think his point was that the van is worth less than the repairs alone would cost, and that's before any unforeseen problems he might encounter when he is doing the axle work. I see your point. Our worry is that we will throw a few thousand down on repairs and then it just takes a poop on us anyway.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:09:09 PM by Meinurgill »

PeteD01

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2014, 03:42:22 PM »
We were hoping not to purchase a vehicle until after that time so we could pay cash, but the van axle went, so we are stuck. It also needs new brakes and tires, and at 220,000 miles, our mechanic told us it wasn't worth it because he could easily find other problems once he gets in there and works on it.

That E150 is one serviceable vehicle. If the engine is still good and the body is not falling apart you could keep that van running for years for a few thousand $$ and probably not all at once. I mean, a rear axle and tires and a brake job is no reason to get rid of an E150. Parts are dirt cheap too. And the stuff you are hauling broke the axle on the van? How do you think a wimpy little SUV is going to like hat sort of service?

Now for the "if it is worth spending money on it" - there are two sides to that: It is definitely not worth spending any money on it if you then turn around and try to sell it - you are not going to get your money back. The other side is the use value for YOU driving it into the ground over the next few years - that is independent of the market value of the van.

And what the hell is your mechanic talking about?
He could easily find other things?
Could he, really, but hasn't even looked yet, right? Jeez...
Try to find someone who knows these vans and get a second opinion.
Of course, if the engine is shot or the body rotted out, you be out of luck.

I think his point was that the van is worth less than the repairs alone would cost, and that's before any unforeseen problems he might encounter when he is doing the axle work. I see your point. Our worry is that we will throw a few thousand down on repairs and then it just takes a poop on us anyway.

His point that the car is worth less than the repairs alone would cost may or may not be the case. The point is that the market value of the car is not something that should influence your decision. You would be buying a high mileage vehicle (and a veritable shitbox compared to the van) anyway and expensive repairs could be needed as well. Bottom line is that you are not in the financial position to borrow more money and that there is a decent alternative. That's what it comes down to and that's what you are going to hear on this forum.

libertarian4321

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2014, 04:39:44 PM »

Cheap would be buying a $200 scrapheap that burns a quart of oil per block and has no windshield.

Windshields are overrated.  That heap probably won't go fast enough that you'll generate any wind anyway.

I say buy it, run it into the ground (probably about 5 miles), then enter the demolition derby. 

Could be fun.

okashira

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2014, 05:19:18 PM »
Make sense?
Nope!  I was going to hold my punches, but I can't.  I'm from Michigan.  I spent more winters than I would have liked living in Michigan.  You do NOT need 4WD for highway driving in Michigan unless you live in the UP.  I commuted on highways all winter long with a front wheel drive car.  The 'secret' is to slow down.  My siblings have totaled many 4WD vehicles by driving too quickly (they've learned their lesson to slow down and now drive front wheel drive cars).  My winter accident count...1...at 16.  I dented my Dad's car when I slid off the road when I hit the brakes too quickly on a sheet of ice. 

Meinurgill, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I think you need to grasp your situation.  You have $40k in credit card debt.  Please keep an open mind and realize an SUV/car loan is not a smart or necessary move.
I've lived in MI my entire life, I've commuted daily on the highway on winter roads for almost 15 years in a VW Golf and a Pontiac Sunfire (in college) and have never had an accident on them. I drive slow as shit. I know how to drive in the snow. I learned how to drive on the ice by doing donuts in a conversion van on an ice-covered parking lot when I was 14 (that's how my father, who was from a generational family of motorcycle ice racers, taught us to handle the hazardous road conditions). My point is that my concern is for my son's safety. When it was just me, I sucked it up and drove the Golf. But times have changed for my little family. Not to mention, we live on the lakeshore and the lake effect blizzard conditions have been escalating each year. I've lived on the East side of the state and there's no question that the road conditions are better there in the winter--not sure where you lived?

Safety aside, our baby is also the reason we are trying to get our financial shit together and make the right choice here. So, on that note, how do we handle hubby's hauling needs in a sedan? If you can convince me that it makes sense, then I'm open to it. This is how we learn! I just found a 2009 Forester with 87,000 miles on Craigslist for 13K. Is that seriously too much to spend? Or is it the gas mileage we are concerned with?
We probably lived very close to each other!  And if you've been driving for 15 years, we're about the same age. 

My frustration stems from the 'need' for 4WD and the pricetag associated with it.  I understand that you want to have 4WD to keep your baby safe.  However, you haven't had an accident in 15 years of driving in a front wheel drive car.  I don't know why you'd want to mess with a good thing.  One of my favorite activities on my snowy drives home was to count the number vehicles in the ditch and calculate the percentage of 4WD vehicles.  There were times that the vehicles were so covered in snow that I couldn't tell what it was, but the majority of the time....I saw sporty rear wheel drive cars and 4WD vehicles (usually trucks and SUVs) in the ditch.  My opinion (and it's fine if you disagree with it) is 4WD gives the driver a false sense of safety, so they drive too quickly (and end up in the ditch). 

$13k is a LOT to spend on a car when you have a baby AND $40k in cc debt.
I almost had a seizure.

daverobev

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 06:11:53 PM »
4wd helps you start. It does not help you stop.

Most cars in Canada are 2wd. No problems, in QC they mandate snow tires, but not 4wd.

On ice nothing helps but driving carefully.

Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2014, 06:58:45 PM »
In any case, the consensus is clearly that 4WD is unnecessary. So let's get back to the hauling need. Does it make more sense to finance the van repairs at 14% interest on a CC (which is what we would have to do) than it does to delay the overall payoff of our debt by about 3-5 months (which is what adding a car payment would do)? BTW our debt is the result of a job loss. Our financial outlay has changed drastically. We have always had credit scores in the 700s and have never had late payments or anything in collection. We are both employed well and we put everything extra on debt. We expect to have about half of it paid off by spring, even with an added car payment. But until it is totally gone we have to finance any major expenses because we don't have savings. So do we throw thousands of financed credit card dollars at a van on its last leg? Just having a hard time understanding how that gains us anything in the long run. The van would have to last 4 more years or so for us to be able to be in a spot where we could pay cash to replace it, and anything else that needed repair between now and then would also have to be financed if we are still working on the CC debt at the time of the repairs. Help me understand this.


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Paul der Krake

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2014, 08:02:40 PM »
I think most people here opposed to the SUV because you've been presenting it as the only viable solution. If you are not pleased with the vehicles onthe market that fit your creterions, then you need to either:

1) relax your rules as to what constitutes an acceptable vehicle, like a beefy front wheel drive car or even another minivan
2) relax your rules as to what constitutes an acceptable price, and suck it up (debt sucks, but people have gotten out of much bigger holes!)
3) put your vehicle needs on hold until some of your debt is paid off and you have some more breathing room
4) a mix of all 3 aboves

There's no magic formula to help you decide how much risk you're willing to take. :)

PeteD01

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2014, 08:06:00 PM »
In any case, the consensus is clearly that 4WD is unnecessary. So let's get back to the hauling need. Does it make more sense to finance the van repairs at 14% interest on a CC (which is what we would have to do) than it does to delay the overall payoff of our debt by about 3-5 months (which is what adding a car payment would do)? BTW our debt is the result of a job loss. Our financial outlay has changed drastically. We have always had credit scores in the 700s and have never had late payments or anything in collection. We are both employed well and we put everything extra on debt. We expect to have about half of it paid off by spring, even with an added car payment. But until it is totally gone we have to finance any major expenses because we don't have savings. So do we throw thousands of financed credit card dollars at a van on its last leg? Just having a hard time understanding how that gains us anything in the long run. The van would have to last 4 more years or so for us to be able to be in a spot where we could pay cash to replace it, and anything else that needed repair between now and then would also have to be financed if we are still working on the CC debt at the time of the repairs. Help me understand this.


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You are missing the point. Buying another high mileage vehicle does not miraculously get rid of your car repair troubles, you are just exchanging one headache with another potential one which you won't be able to simply ditch if trouble should show up and you would have to put any possibly needed repair on your CC anyway but on top of your car loan. It looks like you simply want to believe that a financed high mileage used vehicle can deliver peace of mind, but it won't, because all that is guaranteed is another monthly payment and any expensive repair would put your debt payment plan on hold for a good wile.

Meinurgill

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2014, 08:48:15 PM »
You guys are stressing me out! No, I don't believe a high mileage vehicle would offer peace of mind and I'm concerned about added repair costs, that's precisely the problem I'm asking for help with.


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Middlesbrough

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2014, 09:00:41 PM »
You can buy a car with a large trunk. My vehicle now could fit about three people in it (that is terrible way to measure size of a trunk). I still get about 25-27 mpg highway. Do you really really need a SUV? Really?

Ohio Teacher

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2014, 09:08:15 PM »
Quote from: Meinurgill

I just found a 2009 Forester with 87,000 miles on Craigslist for 13K. Is that seriously too much to spend?
Yes!  You seem to recognize that you are in a hair-on-fire debt emergency, but somehow think going further into debt in the short-term will help matters.  Ahhh!  This is the kind of thinking that leads people to never get out of debt.  What do you do in two years when the financed used car has a major breakdown?  Rationalize going into further debt for yet another car?  Gasp... putting the repairs on a credit card?

Seriously.  You have no money.  You have less than no money.  If your husband's equipment can't fit in a small used beater car that you buy for the $3000 that you can save over a few weeks at your decent paying jobs, then his little business needs to get put on hold for a while.  What you're doing is called leveraging.  That is, you guys are rationalizing that this frivolous purchase will pay for itself with gig income, thus providing a positive ROI and making it a good investment.  But given your current financial situation, you will be one disaster away from needing to leverage with debt again.

I won't even touch the 4WD nonsense as that has been thoroughly discussed by others.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 09:29:15 PM by Ohio Teacher »

okashira

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2014, 10:29:35 PM »
You guys are stressing me out! No, I don't believe a high mileage vehicle would offer peace of mind and I'm concerned about added repair costs, that's precisely the problem I'm asking for help with.


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alsoknownasDean

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2014, 04:52:10 AM »
Here's a thought, could the E150 be DIY repaired? How much longer could it run once that's done? Would a CRV et al even have the towing capacity required?

You've mentioned a $13000 2009 Forester with 87000 miles. How much is a 2002 with similar miles? Could you sell the Golf and use the proceeds to buy a similar-age Impreza if you're desperate for 4WD?

I guess it's a case of get even further in hair-on-fire debt or make sacrifices until you're out of said debt.

Dyk

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2014, 10:47:43 AM »
I think something is really being missed here .....  it's the thinking that needs to change first.

You don't 'throw thousands of credit card financed dollars at the van to fix it'.  You are stating that by putting your extra money on the 40k of debt it will be paid by spring.  So that's ~$5k/month???
If that's true, stop putting it on the debt for 1 month (pay the minimums) and then buy a 'hauling vehicle' or better yet fix the van.  ('Rent' a car/truck from a friend for half the profits of the 'gigs' if they need to go on, or put them on hold.  Figure something out!)  It may seem like not paying that $5k for a month against the credit cards is the same as financing the new car or the repairs.  It is not, it is a world of difference in your thinking.  Nothing ever again on credit.

Hair on fire means:
- Only make essential purchases to keep your body breathing (If you are 40k in debt from a job loss, there is still probably a lot of work that could be done here)
- Put everything on the debt
- When done, start planning the retirement part.

clarkfan1979

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2014, 11:59:58 AM »


My frustration stems from the 'need' for 4WD and the pricetag associated with it.  I understand that you want to have 4WD to keep your baby safe.  However, you haven't had an accident in 15 years of driving in a front wheel drive car.  I don't know why you'd want to mess with a good thing.  One of my favorite activities on my snowy drives home was to count the number vehicles in the ditch and calculate the percentage of 4WD vehicles.  There were times that the vehicles were so covered in snow that I couldn't tell what it was, but the majority of the time....I saw sporty rear wheel drive cars and 4WD vehicles (usually trucks and SUVs) in the ditch.  My opinion (and it's fine if you disagree with it) is 4WD gives the driver a false sense of safety, so they drive too quickly (and end up in the ditch). 

$13k is a LOT to spend on a car when you have a baby AND $40k in cc debt.
[/quote]

I agree with the false sense of security that people experience when they drive an SUV.

4alpacas

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2014, 03:26:00 PM »
I think something is really being missed here .....  it's the thinking that needs to change first.

You don't 'throw thousands of credit card financed dollars at the van to fix it'.  You are stating that by putting your extra money on the 40k of debt it will be paid by spring.  So that's ~$5k/month???


Earlier in the thread, "$40+K in CC debt within 2-3 years" was stated.  I would guess there is about $1k/month going toward the cc debt.  Meinurgill, please correct if I'm wrong.

Cassie

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2014, 04:50:04 PM »
We fix our old cars until it makes no sense to do so. WE fixed a 12 yo Saturn that needed $2400 in repairs when it was worth only $2000. That was 2 years ago & it was a good call. We also had a Volvo about the same age & put about 2,000/year into the last 2 years. Then year 15 we spend 900 & a month later it needed $4000 more at which point we quit.  I think at this point it still makes sense to fix your car.

PeteD01

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2014, 06:53:33 PM »
We have always had credit scores in the 700s and have never had late payments or anything in collection.

That and 40k in CC debt are the financial achievements of the OP. And she comes here to get an honest opinion about taking on another huge consumer loan...hopeless

Goldielocks

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2014, 07:50:22 PM »
This question totally applies to other kinds of purchases--feel free to debate that here as well, please!

DH and I have been trying to buy a used CRV, Forester, or Rav4 (Yes, we need an SUV for DH’s hauling needs for his secondary business) for 3 weeks and it's been a damn nightmare. One problem after another--shitty dealers, cars with dirty oil, accident histories, bank loan fell through for an out-of-state private seller, cars selling just before we arrive to drive them, etc.

I can't wrap my mind around what is actually the more mustachian route to go. I'm starting to feel like it makes more sense to just buy a damn car with 50,000 150,000miles and get on with my life. ..

 



Whoa?!?  Bank loan?

I agree with you -- just get on with it! Buy an ugly but running well $2000-$3000 car for CASH, and save up the money over 2 years to buy a better car for CASH.  You will likely sell that old beater for nearly the price that you paid.   Cars last 200k, and do not always need timing belt.

Don't buy from a used dealer, buy from a private seller.  Your risk of a complete loss is small at only $2k to $3k, but the upside is large.

If you need a BIG vehicle for work hauling, get an old Caravan with $125k miles or more on it, that is running well. 

Michigan?  Check for Rust.

High mileage is VERY MMM on a second vehicle by the way...  most of the time you will be in distance of a "rescue me" spouse, so risk of a breakdown being a big hairy problem is small.  People do stop for parents with broken cars and  babies on the side of the road in winter, you know... 

« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 08:06:49 PM by goldielocks »

gecko10x

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2014, 07:53:55 PM »
Can you sell the van and go to 1 car?

If not, fix it. Then save an emergency fund for the next repair. Then pay down your CC.

BTW, some people above are being really harsh. But going further into debt won't solve anything.

Goldielocks

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2014, 07:56:02 PM »

What kind of dealer lets you buy a 150k miles car with a 72 month term? Probably not the kind that sells cars you are looking for.

+1000!  OMG  not the kind of debt you are looking for...   I shudder at the rates and the likely $3000 he is making off the sale while  he is smiling like a (loan) shark.

If you can't afford the car, then buy something less expensive for now.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 08:07:15 PM by goldielocks »

Dodge

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2014, 08:26:36 PM »
I think something is really being missed here .....  it's the thinking that needs to change first.

You don't 'throw thousands of credit card financed dollars at the van to fix it'.  You are stating that by putting your extra money on the 40k of debt it will be paid by spring.  So that's ~$5k/month???
If that's true, stop putting it on the debt for 1 month (pay the minimums) and then buy a 'hauling vehicle' or better yet fix the van.  ('Rent' a car/truck from a friend for half the profits of the 'gigs' if they need to go on, or put them on hold.  Figure something out!)  It may seem like not paying that $5k for a month against the credit cards is the same as financing the new car or the repairs.  It is not, it is a world of difference in your thinking.  Nothing ever again on credit.

Hair on fire means:
- Only make essential purchases to keep your body breathing (If you are 40k in debt from a job loss, there is still probably a lot of work that could be done here)
- Put everything on the debt
- When done, start planning the retirement part.

I agree some are being a bit harsh, unfortunately that doesn't mean they're wrong.  Dyk really hit the nail on the head with this response.  Meinurgill please understand, it will take a change in your way of thinking to really get out of the situation you've found yourself in.  Even if you go on as normal, and payoff the debt after a few years, if you haven't addressed your way of thinking, the problem isn't really solved.  You'd only be treating the symptoms, not the root cause.

Save up until you can pay for the repair with cash.  Until you get there...

Do you have Zipcar near you?  It's not too expensive to rent a truck for an hour at a time.  Rent it for 1 hour to drive him to the event, then rent for another hour to pick him up and drive home.
No Zipcar near you?  You can rent a truck at uHaul for $20 a night + a bit for milage.
No uHaul near you?  Find a friend.
No friends with big enough cars?  See if they can help with the load that night, and take 2 cars.
Not enough room in 2 cars?  Bring another friend in and try 3.  Pay them each $10 for their trouble.
Not enough friends who can help?  Ask people at work.
Can't find anyone at work?  ...

Do you see where I'm going with this?


Thomas54

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2014, 08:57:39 PM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

Dodge

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 09:02:35 PM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

How does this help address Meinurgill's issue?  Do you have any advice to give for her situation?

Thomas54

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2014, 09:08:42 PM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

How does this help address Meinurgill's issue?  Do you have any advice to give for her situation?

I was giving an example of how sometimes going against the grain and buying a new or almost new vehicle and keeping it basically forever can be cheaper in the long run.

Thomas

Dodge

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2014, 09:14:53 PM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

How does this help address Meinurgill's issue?  Do you have any advice to give for her situation?

I was giving an example of how sometimes going against the grain and buying a new or almost new vehicle and keeping it basically forever can be cheaper in the long run.

Thomas

You bought cash.  Would you advise someone in her situation, with $40k in credit card debt, and talking about having to put the repair bill on a credit card as she has no cash, to make a similar purchase?

Thomas54

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2014, 09:39:54 PM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

How does this help address Meinurgill's issue?  Do you have any advice to give for her situation?

I was giving an example of how sometimes going against the grain and buying a new or almost new vehicle and keeping it basically forever can be cheaper in the long run.

Thomas

You bought cash.  Would you advise someone in her situation, with $40k in credit card debt, and talking about having to put the repair bill on a credit card as she has no cash, to make a similar purchase?

Are you trolling for a fight?  I gave my example to encourage anyone to sometimes go against the grain and plan to spend cash.  If you don't like my answer, don't read any of my posts. 

Reply in any fashion that you like, I only fight face to face.

okashira

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2014, 11:25:05 PM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

How does this help address Meinurgill's issue?  Do you have any advice to give for her situation?

I was giving an example of how sometimes going against the grain and buying a new or almost new vehicle and keeping it basically forever can be cheaper in the long run.

Thomas

Is this a fucking joke. Or are you just trolling.

Goldielocks

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2014, 12:34:11 AM »
Except for the description of the gold plated leather wrapped mega vehicle, okashira makes a point that it is the lifecycle costs that matter...

 but the error in the logic is that you need to start with cash first, and that dictates budget..OP does not have the cash to think about a 10 yr car life cycle on a second vehicle right now...

Russ

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2014, 10:06:31 AM »
In 2010, I purchased a brand new Suburban that was fully loaded a few months before the 2011's came out.  It's a Z71 4WD with leather, DVD entertainment package, towing, every option possible it seems.  It listed for $55K and I gave around $45K with TTL.  Before I get hammered here, let me say that I paid cash for it and that I put about 18K miles per year on my Suburban.  If history repeats itself, I will keep it for 10 years or more.   

I know that all the financial experts say that I am crazy, but if you look at my cost per month over 10 years, I'm paying around $375/month for the knowledge that when I'm approaching 150K miles,  I will have no qualms about taking it into the mountains of Colorado in the winter.

Besides, being in new, larger vehicle makes my wife happy and you can't put a price on that.

Thomas

How does this help address Meinurgill's issue?  Do you have any advice to give for her situation?

I was giving an example of how sometimes going against the grain and buying a new or almost new vehicle and keeping it basically forever can be cheaper in the long run.

Thomas

You bought cash.  Would you advise someone in her situation, with $40k in credit card debt, and talking about having to put the repair bill on a credit card as she has no cash, to make a similar purchase?

Are you trolling for a fight?  I gave my example to encourage anyone to sometimes go against the grain and plan to spend cash.  If you don't like my answer, don't read any of my posts. 

Reply in any fashion that you like, I only fight face to face.

Chill out dude, there wasn't anything confrontational about Dodge's post aside from whatever you read into it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:19:10 PM by Russ »

lackofstache

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2014, 11:49:47 AM »
This may go a little deeper than your choice of cars, but...

I've ran sound and lights and the whole nine for several companies and on my own & my guess as to the best way to fix these problems; SELL THE EQUIPMENT WHILE IT'S STILL WORTH SOMETHING. Remove the need to "invest" in the business by borrowing more money. I realize you see this as a side hustle, but it's a hustle you're borrowing money for. With $40K in cc debt, it's probably not worth it in the long run, it's an EXPENSIVE HOBBY that I'm not sure you can afford.

beltim

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2014, 12:54:30 PM »
I'm enjoying the judgment that obviously the OP is badly mistaken in the need of a large vehicle to haul equipment for what is obviously not cash flow positive, but is instead a stupid expensive hobby.

Oh wait, I'm not.

Where do some of these responses come from?  How can you possibly know that the OP could clearly use a smaller vehicle, or that it's not worth buying a replacement vehicle?  And if you were simply asking for those facts, or suggesting that the OP reexamine her thoughts, I'd be all for those lines of inquiry.  But that's not what's going on – what's going on is judgment that the OP has her facts wrong, and that some of you obviously know better.  I don't understand why anyone would make that sort of wild assumption.

Ohio Teacher

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2014, 01:21:04 PM »
I'm enjoying the judgment that obviously the OP is badly mistaken in the need of a large vehicle to haul equipment for what is obviously not cash flow positive, but is instead a stupid expensive hobby.

Oh wait, I'm not.

Where do some of these responses come from?  How can you possibly know that the OP could clearly use a smaller vehicle, or that it's not worth buying a replacement vehicle?  And if you were simply asking for those facts, or suggesting that the OP reexamine her thoughts, I'd be all for those lines of inquiry.  But that's not what's going on – what's going on is judgment that the OP has her facts wrong, and that some of you obviously know better.  I don't understand why anyone would make that sort of wild assumption.
The OP asked what appeared to them as a comparative question: Which is more Mustachian?  I'm sure the responses to the question would've been less judgmental had the OP not made the choices TIED FOR FUCKING ZERO on a Mustachian scale because they all involved going into further debt.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:23:02 PM by Ohio Teacher »

okashira

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2014, 01:24:19 PM »
At no point has the op clearly defined just how large / heavy the equipment being hauled is.
I am still betting it could all fit into a VW Golf.

beltim

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2014, 01:28:05 PM »
I'm enjoying the judgment that obviously the OP is badly mistaken in the need of a large vehicle to haul equipment for what is obviously not cash flow positive, but is instead a stupid expensive hobby.

Oh wait, I'm not.

Where do some of these responses come from?  How can you possibly know that the OP could clearly use a smaller vehicle, or that it's not worth buying a replacement vehicle?  And if you were simply asking for those facts, or suggesting that the OP reexamine her thoughts, I'd be all for those lines of inquiry.  But that's not what's going on – what's going on is judgment that the OP has her facts wrong, and that some of you obviously know better.  I don't understand why anyone would make that sort of wild assumption.
The OP asked what appeared to them as a comparative question: Which is more Mustachian?  I'm sure the responses to the question would've been less judgmental had the OP not made the choices TIED FOR FUCKING ZERO on a Mustachian scale because they all involved going into further debt.

What you said:
Quote
If your husband's equipment can't fit in a small used beater car that you buy for the $3000 that you can save over a few weeks at your decent paying jobs, then his little business needs to get put on hold for a while.  What you're doing is called leveraging.  That is, you guys are rationalizing that this frivolous purchase will pay for itself with gig income, thus providing a positive ROI and making it a good investment.
You said this with no facts to back it up!  How do you know if the purchase is frivolous, or that it won't pay for itself?  You may be right, of course, but you have no basis for this -- you just assumed.

beltim

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Re: When does FRUGAL become CHEAP? The used car saga continues...
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2014, 01:29:14 PM »
At no point has the op clearly defined just how large / heavy the equipment being hauled is.
I am still betting it could all fit into a VW Golf.

This is a really, really good point.  I don't know if it can or not, but this is a crucial fact to figure out before any useful advice can be given.