Author Topic: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?  (Read 3818 times)

jeromedawg

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When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« on: December 05, 2022, 09:26:50 PM »
Where do I begin with this?

So a few weeks ago, my in-laws just moved down closer to where we're at and literally the day after they moved in they were involved in an accident. The details of what happened are fuzzy at best. All we know is that both my in-laws (only FIL drives and he's 78 and he just had his driver's license renewed too) claim they had a green light. There was supposedly a speeding car involved which they clipped (their car on frontal damage and it looks like someone may have hit them on the driver side too somehow), but several witnesses have said or implicated that my in-laws ran a red... I mean, this doesn't dismiss the fact that the other car was likely speeding or racing but that's a separate issue. We don't know all the details but they were driving around as it was getting dark, and in a new place that they are not familiar with. It wasn't necessary for them to be out but they were insistent on going out to run errands and to get things for their place. English is not their first language, which adds another barrier and layer of complexity (which often results in my wife getting involved to translate). Case in point: while she was trying to translate between my FIL and the paramedics, firefighters and police, it just sounded like they were playing Telephone the whole time.... anyway, that's beside the point.

My concern is that his judgment is starting to become more and more questionable. We don't know if he ran the red or what but he is approaching 80 and this accident could have been a lot worse than it turned out to be (he actually is going to get a CT scan because he keeps complaining that he doesn't feel right). In the same vein, he also keeps asking/implying that he wants to drive again and ASAP, almost acting as though nothing happened (or that it wasn't as big of a deal) and that he *promises* he'll be careful... in fact, they already rented a car and have probably already put at least 60-80 miles on it. In reality, they don't *need* to drive but they do it so they can attend events and visit with friends. Understandably, they wouldn't want to break ties or part with all of that. They're in a 55+ community now (where there is both accessible and free [well, paid for as part of their HOA dues] transportation options at least for the immediate area they're in, and they are much closer to us but I think they still have their close social ties and circle of friends who are spread out across SoCa). So I think there is an adjustment period with all of this, but it's difficult because my FIL (especially) is stubborn, impatient AND impulsive.

In any case, my wife and I have been butting heads over a lot of this. I would really like it if they just conceded to not driving around, period, and/or *at least* taking a break or hiatus until he's fully cleared and waits another month or so *without* rushing or insisting that they get another car to replace the one that is now totaled. My wife on the other hand feels bad for them and wants to cater to them and help them as much as possible. She feels a bit in the middle with all of this. We're just trying to figure out the options and what would make the most sense. One thought that had come to mind was to sell them one of our cars, but that would dump the burden (for us now having to find another car) onto us. If we didn't do that though, I think we would either have to chauffeur/drive them around or help them figure out accommodations to get around, which is still a burden. I suppose the more important factor is their safety though, to which I'm certain my FIL will be stubborn about and insist that he'll be safe driving himself and my MIL around.

If we don't concede to selling our car to them, I have the feeling he's going to go out and buy something on his own which I guess we can't control and it is what it is if he does that. Maybe we just need to leave them to their own devices... the problem with that is that you know he's going to come a knockin' when something isn't right with the car or if he needs help with anything regarding it (maintenance or otherwise). So I don't think we'll be able to completely get away from the "burden" of helping them in this way, regardless.
It's a matter of scope and how much are we involved with their purchase as well as the maintenance.
If they spoke perfect English and had the street smarts to take care of things on their own, we really wouldn't care or likely even be having this conversation, but they are lacking in both of those... the thing is, I think maybe my wife and I don't give them enough credit to do things on their own - the problem is now that they're closer, and ever since the move really, they have become a lot more dependent on us to help with these logistics. But even then, my wife still has had to do A LOT for them especially along the lines of filling out paperwork or anything related to their every day logistics (medical appointments, health insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance I think, dealing with escrow when they sold their home as well as dealing with escrow when selling their restaurant business... as a side: she has taken on an immense level of responsibility for her parents. She often laments that there really aren't many out there who can relate to her, especially at her age - her parents had her when they were older in age, like early 40s IIRC so a lot of the kinds of things that we might expect someone my age or older to deal with, she's having to deal with). My wife was just telling her mother about the shuttle they have in the community and her mom fired back with heavy resistance, telling her she'd rather just die in her unit than learn the shuttle routes... that's one example of how stubborn they are.
Even though our kids aren't of age yet, I can imagine something along the lines of this being like having irresponsible teenagers, one of whom just got their license but also has the tendency and track-record of being reckless... maybe this is good prep for us lol

Anecdotally, I vaguely recall my mom having these same/similar deliberations about my aging grandfather. He must have been in his 80s or around there when she and her siblings basically had to coerce him into no longer driving. It was a really difficult process and he was extremely stubborn about it but eventually he conceded (and was also moved into a senior care facility/nursing home around the same time). Not quite the same situation and I would say much harder on my wife as she only has one sibling and he is so far detached from remotely doing anything that involves helping my in-laws that he's basically useless/out of the picture and only staying in communication to maintain family ties (and ultimately to benefit from whatever remains of the inheritance)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 11:42:50 AM by jeromedawg »

fraylock

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2022, 11:15:18 PM »
We haven't reached this point with our parents, but I have come across situations like these a number of times working as a family doc.  My advice would be to encourage and support as much autonomy as your in laws can safely maintain, while trying to maintain good boundaries for yourself (I know easier said than done).  The exception is that if you and your wife truly feel they are unsafe to drive, this needs to be addressed.  While never easy, it's usually best a discussion between the family and person of concern, but sometimes the individual is unaware or unable to accept that they are unsafe to drive.  In these circumstances, anyone can file a driver evaluation request with the DMV which can prompt them to administer a driving test.  It's worth noting that age alone is not justification for such a request, but rather one must have a specific reason why the individual is felt to be unsafe to drive.

Sometimes, it's not always clear whether a person has the capacity to safely drive.  Yours may be an example of this.  In these cases, it can be helpful to observe them driving to see how they do.  Even good drivers can have accidents, especially in a new environment out of one's element, but if after observing their driving, if you have concerns, you & your wife could press the issue further.

I filled out a few driver evaluation requests to the DMV when I had patients' families come to me expressing concern about their driving ability.  I was always upfront with the pt that I did so.  This did not always endear me to them, but ultimately it's our responsibility to ensure safety on the road.  Some of the folks ended up doing fine on their driving evals; others not.  For people who have conditions that would cause an expected deterioration in ability to drive (eg dementia), I would recommend repeat driving evaluations at a frequency appropriate to the condition (e.g. yearly).

chemistk

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2022, 05:57:37 AM »
This is a really complex issue, and before you come to any more conclusions, you need to be on the exact same page as your wife. They are her parents, full-stop.

Now, that doesn't mean that you can't thoughtfully establish your case for them not driving. In fact, you should gather the evidence and discuss this with your wife as diplomatically as you can. It sounds like you're mostly doing well on that front, but I think the fear of the consequences of your in laws' actions is overwhelming your perception of the influence you hold in these circumstances.

The obstacle you're up against is culturally ingrained pride (hence why MIL would rather die than take any form of public transit), and that's not something you're going to overcome with fear of the consequences of their actions, no matter how rational (or irrational) those fears may be.

In conceding that he can no longer drive, your in-laws are one step close to acknowledging that they are too old to do some of the things they enjoy. They will no longer have the freedom to go exactly where they want, when they want, which is a tough pill for many people to swallow. 

Has your wife been in the car with her dad while he's driving? If so, how frequently does she get a chance to ride along with them? Like I said, she needs to be the one who ultimately urges her parents to consider/instruct them to give up the keys.

To answer the original question, my grandparents continued to drive until a year or two before they passed. My wife's grandparents gave up the keys a lot earlier (each about 2-3 years before they passed, all in their mid-to-late 80's). She still has one grandparent living, who just a couple months ago gave up the keys due to her health. None of them had to be coerced.

former player

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2022, 07:38:19 AM »
Your only job here is to support your wife.

I don't see how it supports your wife to sell her parents one of your cars?  If their own car is totalled, which is what it sounds like, then your parents in law need to decide on buying a new car for themselves. Are there any motoring organisations which help with inspections on used cars? If so, put them in touch with one.

I am afraid that having your parents in law move closer to you means accepting that you will be giving them support to a greater or lesser degree (and probably increasing over time) for the rest of their lives.   But it has to be support not control.  They will undoubtedly make many decisions that you do not agree with, but their decisions aren't something that can be optimised on mustachian principles.

GilesMM

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2022, 07:58:41 AM »
My grandfather drove well into his 90s and refused to wear a seatbelt. After totaling two cars at Yield sign intersections (he loved yield signs because he didn't have to stop, slow down or look), he gave up the keys on the condition friends would provide daily lifts, especially to the coffee shop at 9am and lunch at 11:30. They did so it all worked out. 

A demolished car is a perfect opportunity to have the discussion about no longer driving. If your in-laws lose the car keys I suspect you will end up being their full time taxi driver, so that is something to consider.

My dad drives (in snow) at 93.  It's a little scary to ride with him, but no accidents so far. Knock on wood.

Sandi_k

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2022, 08:26:38 AM »
Mid-80's for DH's grandparents.

Our moms are now at that age, and still driving around town. His dad is 89, and just stopped driving last year, after he ran his truck into something on the drive home from "work."

This is a huge loss of autonomy. I would not be the one "taking away" their keys unless you had DW's support and agreement, or unless you saw something that made you fear for life and limb.

Are they savvy enough to use a smartphone for Uber or Lyft? It's possible that between insurance and gas, they could spend similar amounts on a ride share app, or "ride along" with a neighbor to the store on a weekly basis.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 08:28:10 AM by Sandi_k »

jeromedawg

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2022, 08:56:05 AM »
Mid-80's for DH's grandparents.

Our moms are now at that age, and still driving around town. His dad is 89, and just stopped driving last year, after he ran his truck into something on the drive home from "work."

This is a huge loss of autonomy. I would not be the one "taking away" their keys unless you had DW's support and agreement, or unless you saw something that made you fear for life and limb.

Are they savvy enough to use a smartphone for Uber or Lyft? It's possible that between insurance and gas, they could spend similar amounts on a ride share app, or "ride along" with a neighbor to the store on a weekly basis.

I have my doubts that they would be able to use Lyft... they might surprise us but I am doubtful. For Lyft, they get like 40 free rides per month within the general boundaries of the 55+ community they're in, which is nice, but at least starting out my wife and I would probably have to coordinate and arrange those Lyfts for them. They are willing to ride along with friends but the "friends" they have in this community aren't close friends and I think right now they don't want to trouble them too much either. Still, it would be nice if they could make some new friends? Hopefully they will in due time. Just having moved in, I think they're still settling in and familiarizing themselves with the area. I don't think we're going to succeed in dissuading them from buying another car but I think we're going to keep ourselves out of the decision... inherently, I think they really want our help to find a new/used car. Personally, it's not something I really want to help with - I can and have helped with many other things for them but this is just overwhelming. It's a terrible time to buy a new/used car and on top of that I've never bought other than from family. The idea of going to a dealership or scouring ads for used cars is somewhat foreign to me and if I can't comfortably do it for myself, I wouldn't want to be doing it on behalf of someone else either. Maybe it's not a big deal and maybe buying a car really isn't as bad as it seems but it sounds like a very time-consuming process with a fair amount of research going into it (and I have more pressing things to think about right now, like surgery). Naturally, I think they lean towards me for stuff like this but right now I feel like I'm at my limit.... it seriously feels like having two more grown but not fully responsible children to deal with.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 08:59:03 AM by jeromedawg »

darknight

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2022, 09:05:52 AM »
They are her parents yes, but as family I think they are absolutely within your concern.

My grandpa is 99 and had to stop driving about 5 years ago. He had a bad case of pneumonia that slowed him down a lot. Shortly after getting better he started driving around ending up at the edge of town, not sure where he was going or would get lost in the town where he's lived for nearly 4 decades. As a family we all helped pitch in the effort to ease his "need" for driving and it came back to my dad telling him that it was time to stop driving. Where they lived was very near an elementary school and my dad basically told him how bad it would be to hit a family's car or worse, kids leaving school. He understood and his doctor backed it up.

Get a doctor's opinion and go at the issue as a team. In my grandpa's case, those who lived in town started stepping up more driving him around when needed. If you make their need to drive a non-issue (you drive them when needed or teach them how to use Uber) then they can look at NOT driving. Best of luck, hard stuff.

Also, insurance for seniors can be so expensive. My grandpa was paying $120/month for basic coverage, once he "gave" the car to my aunt the insurance on the same car went to roughly $20/month. Whenever someone stops by to drive him somewhere, they use my "aunt's" car to drive them around town. This approach made the transition super easy. Let them keep a car but dissuade them from driving it. My grandpa didn't want to give up his car because he knew everyone else would have to bring their personal vehicles to drive him around.. by keeping "his" car, it wasn't a financial burden for those helping and he feels some autonomy. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 09:11:52 AM by darknight »

Blue Skies

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2022, 10:53:43 AM »
I do not look forward to this issue coming up, but my parents are still fairly young.  My grandparents - 1 stopped driving after falling asleep at the wheel with cruise control on and ramming into a tree at 60mph, in his early 80s; 1 kept driving until he passed from a heart attack (not while driving, mid80s); 1 stopped when she moved into senior living in her mid80s, which was less than a year before she passed, she hadn't driven often for many years prior to that though; the other one passed at 65.

My parents live rurally and couldn't still live in their current home without driving a significant amount.  It will be a tough transition to make.

FINate

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2022, 11:26:28 AM »
I don't understand why you're considering selling them one of your vehicles. Let them buy whatever they want.

If you really believe he's an unsafe driver, the CA DMV has a Request for Driver Reexamination process.

Help them learn how to use Lyft, especially since they get 40 free rides/month. Seniors can learn this stuff, it's not rocket science. My 85 year old neighbor isn't tech savvy in the least bit, and he takes Uber all over town.

jeromedawg

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2022, 02:31:45 PM »
I don't understand why you're considering selling them one of your vehicles. Let them buy whatever they want.

If you really believe he's an unsafe driver, the CA DMV has a Request for Driver Reexamination process.

Help them learn how to use Lyft, especially since they get 40 free rides/month. Seniors can learn this stuff, it's not rocket science. My 85 year old neighbor isn't tech savvy in the least bit, and he takes Uber all over town.

The first thought was that we are the first and only owners of the vehicle, know the general maintenance and can get all records if needed, and it's a 'safe' transaction in that there's no shady stuff going on, dishonest sellers, lemon-deals etc. Selling to my in-laws would eliminate the concern of having to go through the vetting and negotiating process. Second thought was "Oh maybe it's not such a bad thing to go down to 1-car household..." until it would just get way too difficult and we find ourselves wanting or needing a second car again... so I'm not fully convinced of the second  given our current life stage. That said, it *would* be nice to have a second car that's a bit more spacious than '09 Rav4.

I think we will push the Lyft thing. The other issue with that is that it's *intended* to be supplemental to the shuttle service. So whenever the shuttle runs (8am-5pm M-F) *free* Lyft is not available for them and they would have to use the shuttle to get around the local area... my MIL was absolutely refusing the use the shuttle service too. I don't know why she's so against it, especially considering that they're paying for it as part of their HOA dues. I can see it being a bit inconvenient but it really can't be *that* bad or difficult to use considering this is a 55+ community, so I really don't understand the pushback on that.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 02:34:33 PM by jeromedawg »

Catbert

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2022, 04:02:38 PM »
I've deal with this a bit twice, once with MIL and once with DH. 

My MIL was in her mid-80s and increasing having small accidents and mysterious scrapes/dents appeared on her car.  Naturally, always the other guy's fault.  She ended up in a ditch once although she denied there was a spy neighbor who helped her get it out and then told SIL.  We lived 1200 miles away and SIL lived nearby.  MIL lived 12 miles from town on country roads so a car really was a necessity.  SIL knew a SAHM who lived close by and would have been ecstatic to earn $12 an hour (7 years ago) to drive MIL on errands.  The plan was for DH (The Son) and SIL to have an intervention the next time DH was there and tell she had to quit driving and what had been figured out regarding transportation.  It would have worked I think since she was of a generation and religion that said men tell women what to do and they do it, period.  Unfortunately, she died suddenly before the intervention happened.

My DH (mid-70s) was diagnosed this year with the early stages of Alzheimer's.  While his technical driving skills (speed, signaling, turning, etc) were still fine he had moments of confusion about where he was and how to start the car.  We talked about  old people confusing accelerator with brakes and crashing through garages and store windows.  Also, while most wrong way drivers were drunk, some seemingly confused the off ramp for an on ramp.  Emphasis was on not wanting to be hurt or hurt others. Then he had his most concerning episode.  Driving alone he missed the freeway exit to our house so he got off at the next exit.  he got back on the freeway the other direction and sailed past the exit again.  He then had to very carefully circle our whole neighborhood to get back home.  That really rattled us both.  But he really still wanted to drive.  He told the story to his cousin who's a big car guy figuring he would be supportive of DH continued to drive.  Cousin said, "Are you crazy?!  If that happened to me I'd get out of the car and never drive again."  That final push along with our previous convinced DH that it was time to quit driving.  Thanks to supply chain issues we were able to sell his sold his car at a 14K profit.  He now has an Uber app although he rarely uses it.  I'm his Uber.

You've already figured out alternative transportation arrangements although your ILs don't want to use them.  It there anyone they respect that you can enlist to talk to them?   If not an eldest son, what about a close friend or even a friendly neighbor who could talk about the convenience of Lyft/shuttle that they are already paying?  Has the insurance company determined who's at fault in the recent accident?  Can that be used as leverage?

As at least one person mentioned earlier research the DMV process in your state for reporting an impaired driver. 

Good luck.

Sibley

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2022, 06:28:23 PM »
I understand all the family dynamics, pride, culture, etc etc etc issues. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. If someone isn't safe to drive and gets into an accident and kills someone, a person is dead. You can't fix that. And some states allow extended family to be sued as well, because they should have known and didn't stop an unsafe driver from getting behind the wheel.

Realistically, the US as a whole should start requiring driving tests, reflex tests, etc for everyone over a certain age - say 60 or 65. But that's so young you say. Yeah, and my mom has voluntarily refrained from driving after dark whenever possible since her mid 50s. Not everyone is self aware or responsible enough to know when they aren't safe to drive. Of course this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

OP, every state has a process to report someone as an unsafe driver, which will prompt an assessment or something. Figure it out and do it. You have a responsibility to society.

cchrissyy

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2022, 11:22:02 PM »
i haven't had to push this one. my folks are a decade younger, my mom stopped willingly years ago, while my dad still drives fine.

all you can do is
1) not help them obtain a car. especially not selling them your own, for goodness sakes.
2) flag them to the dmv and maybe they will intervene.

the reality about their transportation at this stage of life is it will be a mix of Lyft, shuttles, and rides from you guys.

jeninco

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2022, 09:44:58 AM »
I don't know, but I'm reading along with interest, because my 85-year old mom, who learned to drive late and has never been a good driver, should really give up the car keys. I'm low-key not getting into a car with her anymore pretty much ever (I live 2000 miles away, so this is only an issue when I'm visiting her area. Which does happen 3+ times/year). The last time she needed to replace a car, we suggested she use the $ for Ubers/Lyfts, but she bought something anyhow (she went with our second option, which was "at least get a hybrid") and immediately got into an accident with it. She replaced it with another and I think that one is so far unscathed, and in-between COVID happened, so she was glad to not be getting into shared vehicles (although she lives in a city with pretty good public transportation, and uses that a fair bit).

My aunt, who is a better driver so far, is also 83 and lives about 5 miles out of town, so basically has to drive everywhere, daily. I think when the time comes we can talk her into a driver, but that's going to be a (polite, we're all nice people in that case) battle.

wenchsenior

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2022, 11:21:54 AM »
When they (3 people) had several medical incidents some of which resulted in accidents, over a short period of time, and had were either strong-armed by their kids to stop or decided to stop.  With 3 other individuals, they stopped b/c of repeated arrests for drunk driving and having licenses revoked.  Not sure how this will go with my mother, who is getting to her late 70s and probably should stop driving soon.

Dee18

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2022, 11:54:51 AM »
My mother quit driving at 92.  At that point she was just driving to the grocery and to her church, each within 3 miles and only in the mid-morning.  But she has both glaucoma and macular degeneration. (I say has because she is now 99 and a half.)  I really wasn't sure what her vision was like, so I called her ophthalmologist and spoke with him before her next eye appointment.  I did not ask him about her condition (no HIPAA violation!).  But I told him she was still driving.  He was shocked.  The first time I spoke with her after the appointment she told me that her doctor said it was time to quit driving so she was going to give her car to her granddaughter (my daughter) who was starting college a couple hours away.  My daughter was extremely grateful and visited my mother every month during her college years.  It was a win for both of them. 

Some states offer or require driving tests for seniors.  Some insurance companies offer courses.  AAA does.  There are many options to get a professional assessment. Google "defensive driving for seniors" for some ideas.  Since your wife's parents had just moved they were probably tired and driving in unfamiliar territory.  Driving lessons in that area could be helpful.  I think there are many options between driving as usual and completely giving it up. 

My mother was not okay using a smart phone, but did briefly use GoGograndparent, which coordinates trips with Lyft or Uber, but she found that stressful.  We ended up hiring a "handyman" two mornings a week who helped with the yard and house and took my mom to errands and appointments until she moved into a senior living complex at 97. The handyman only cost $80/week and Mom loved it. 

SweatingInAR

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2022, 01:47:28 PM »
We ended up hiring a "handyman" two mornings a week who helped with the yard and house and took my mom to errands and appointments until she moved into a senior living complex at 97. The handyman only cost $80/week and Mom loved it.

Oh my gosh... I love this! I hope that I can remember that tip when I need it!

GuitarStv

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2022, 02:47:41 PM »
My grandmother voluntarily stopped driving the ninth time she ran into her house when she was in in her early 90s.  There were about ten years or so before that where we all kinda felt that it was unsafe for her to be operating an automobile but were too afraid to push the issue with her.

BlueHouse

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2022, 04:04:28 PM »
See how you're having this conversation with a bunch of strangers on the internet?  Have the same conversation with them. 
Example:

"You're getting up there in years, so we'd like to know a few safety-related things and how you'd like us to handle some known eventualities. 
1.  How long do you think you'll keep driving?
2.  What are some things that may indicate that it may be time to stop driving?
3.  When the time comes, do you think you'll identify that it's no longer safe, or do you think someone else will see the signs first?
4.  If the time comes and you don't agree, who do you want to have the discussion with?  Family or authorities? 
5.  If we tell you you're no longer safe to drive, will you believe us and hand over keys?

My family has been having conversations like this since my mom was in her 40s...so it's hard for me to understand that others didn't do the same.  When the time came, my mom identified it before any of her children wanted to admit it. 

The point is:  have every difficult conversation long before it is needed, so that it's not embarrassing or confrontational.  Have them involved in the "how do we do this" conversation so you can later say "this is how you wanted it". 

NV Teacher

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2022, 05:59:33 PM »
Sadly it’s a part of getting older.  My mother had glaucoma and lost a lot of her peripheral vision.  The eye doctor didn’t tell her that she couldn’t drive but I just kept repeating that one kid on a bicycle coming from the side and she would never see them.  I’m ashamed to admit that a few small fender benders I let the battery drain down and told her the car broken.

No sin to get old, but damn inconvenient.

Dollar Slice

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2022, 01:06:38 AM »
My dad is the same age as your FIL and my parents just got rid of his car. He hasn't driven in a few months, and my mom has done the bulk of the driving since the start of the pandemic (before that, he was driving to work every day). Unfortunately, he really should have stopped driving years ago - I have tried really hard to avoid being in a car with him since the last couple of times I was in the passenger seat were pretty alarming. He has an eye disease which affects his vision - it waxes and wanes, and he always insisted he could tell when he was safe to drive or not. But it turns out he has Alzheimer's (officially diagnosed this year, but obviously developing for years), which affects your judgment. I realized at some point last year that there was something else wrong with his vision that wasn't his eye disease - he has extremely poor vision in dim lighting/low contrast, plus he has trouble with anything that's visually busy (like finding a particular menu on a computer screen, or filling out a form with lots of fields). Then he started having some weird thing where it seems like he doesn't see straight lines straight, or he doesn't see right angles as 90 degrees, or something like that? If you give him a mug of tea he'll hold it 10 degrees tilted every time and insist it's level, and he can't plug an electrical appliance into the wall because he keeps turning the plug a little bit sideways. I have no idea what he sees, but it's obviously not right. The neurologist thinks the Alzheimer's is affecting his visual cortex (which is very unusual this early in the disease, I guess).

Anyway. Thank goodness he finally agreed to get off the roads, and it's a miracle he didn't kill anyone. I'm not sure what would have happened if there wasn't a pandemic that let him start working from home just before his eyesight took a turn for the worse. He was really stubborn about it and gets mad when people suggest he is disabled or elderly or unable to do certain things any more. But the neurologist who diagnosed him with Alzheimer's said flat out that he could not drive without being evaluated by the DMV (and I can't imagine he would have passed - he didn't end up going for the test). Luckily my mother is still a very good driver and has no trouble using Uber on her phone. She'll call rides for my dad if she can't drive him somewhere. He is not able to figure out stuff on his smartphone for the most part, and they are not at all friendly when you have poor vision. Mom doesn't like driving at night, so they try not to go anywhere far away in the evenings, but otherwise they do OK with her driving and/or taking Ubers or occasionally asking someone for help.

My #1 battle now is getting them to move to a home that isn't the most dangerous thing you've ever seen. It's basically built entirely of stairs, slippery outdoor slopes, and enormous old trees that could fall on the house in the next big storm.

RetiredAt63

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2022, 07:55:22 AM »
My Dad was driving just fine until he had a small stroke in his early 90s that hit the visual processing part of the brain.  For a few days he couldn't read or drive.  The reading came back but he never drove again.
He was really unhappy about not being able to drive, but he was in a city and there were taxis, and his retirement home had shuttles, so it ended up not being a huge deal.

SunnyDays

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2022, 10:28:57 AM »
My dad is 91 and still drives short distances, but the days are numbered.  Mostly because he has spine and leg issues that make getting in/out of a car hard, rather than problems driving per se.  He has options - I live an hour away but told him I'll take him to appointments and do errands when I'm in town, the neighbours have offered to get groceries for him and there is a volunteer senior driver service.  But he's pretty stubborn and still wants to do things himself, although he did express surprise that his doctor hasn't taken away his license, due to his age.  The day is coming, likely very soon, and hopefully before he has an accident.  I think I'll bring it up again when I go in shortly.

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2022, 10:38:01 AM »
My grandmother stopped driving a few years ago at 94 or so.  She still lives alone at 98 (by choice).  My aunt would take her in, but she'd rather live alone (and is doing great).  She never really had any issues, but her car started to go and she decided to stop driving rather than replace it.

My in-laws aren't particularly old (early 70s) but my FIL is a terrible driver and is often on pain medicine.  My wife has gently suggested that pain meds and driving is a bad combination, and he isn't interested.  Fundamentally, I'm a big believer in helping people who ask for my help and leaving pretty much everyone else alone.

jeninco

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2022, 04:28:07 PM »
See how you're having this conversation with a bunch of strangers on the internet?  Have the same conversation with them. 
Example:

"You're getting up there in years, so we'd like to know a few safety-related things and how you'd like us to handle some known eventualities. 
1.  How long do you think you'll keep driving?
2.  What are some things that may indicate that it may be time to stop driving?
3.  When the time comes, do you think you'll identify that it's no longer safe, or do you think someone else will see the signs first?
4.  If the time comes and you don't agree, who do you want to have the discussion with?  Family or authorities? 
5.  If we tell you you're no longer safe to drive, will you believe us and hand over keys?

My family has been having conversations like this since my mom was in her 40s...so it's hard for me to understand that others didn't do the same.  When the time came, my mom identified it before any of her children wanted to admit it. 

The point is:  have every difficult conversation long before it is needed, so that it's not embarrassing or confrontational.  Have them involved in the "how do we do this" conversation so you can later say "this is how you wanted it".

Thanks for this! It seems so ... obvious, when you put it like that!
We're going to be visiting some of the relatives the week after next, and I'll look for chances to ask these questions.

Metalcat

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2022, 06:01:58 AM »
See how you're having this conversation with a bunch of strangers on the internet?  Have the same conversation with them. 
Example:

"You're getting up there in years, so we'd like to know a few safety-related things and how you'd like us to handle some known eventualities. 
1.  How long do you think you'll keep driving?
2.  What are some things that may indicate that it may be time to stop driving?
3.  When the time comes, do you think you'll identify that it's no longer safe, or do you think someone else will see the signs first?
4.  If the time comes and you don't agree, who do you want to have the discussion with?  Family or authorities? 
5.  If we tell you you're no longer safe to drive, will you believe us and hand over keys?

My family has been having conversations like this since my mom was in her 40s...so it's hard for me to understand that others didn't do the same.  When the time came, my mom identified it before any of her children wanted to admit it. 

The point is:  have every difficult conversation long before it is needed, so that it's not embarrassing or confrontational.  Have them involved in the "how do we do this" conversation so you can later say "this is how you wanted it".

Yep.

There's no magical way to make difficult conversations not difficult. You just have them, and they're difficult, and sometimes people get really hurt and angry. That's okay, that's why they're called difficult conversations.

crocheted_stache

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2022, 08:55:05 PM »
My late grandfather was somewhere into his 80s before he stopped driving. My grandmother had stopped driving some time earlier, and they had both voluntarily stopped driving at night or in rain. My parents are still driving the 2005 car he got brand new shortly before then (which was frustrating for us all to watch), and I suppose it's a matter of time before we have to have the same conversation with them.

No crashes occurred, that we know of, but there were a few too many white-knuckled close calls and "surely you shouldn't be driving this fast on this road" moments. At some point, my dad went to a mechanic he trusts and learned which fuse to pull to stop the car from functioning but not be obvious why. (After all, older people are adults and quite capable of calling roadside assistance or digging up a duplicate key.) I don't remember if he ever had to do that or if he tucked it away just in case.

What he did do was insist that Granddad prove it. If you're still such a great driver, let's take you to the driving school in town and you take a practice test with one of the instructors there. We agree ahead of time: you pass, we believe you and let you be. You fail, you're done here. I'm afraid he flunked.

It's so hard, because we have grown to equate automotive mobility with independence, and we've built huge roads and sprawling suburbs that all but exclude anyone without use of an automobile, and neglected and gutted our public transportation systems for most of a century.

Especially without a car, they could end up isolated. It will be on you, your wife, and any siblings involved, to get your parents to events. Not just grocery shopping and doctor's appointments, but if you possibly can, the gym, the senior center, or whatever else they do for friendship, recreation, and fun.

Among the scariest drivers I've encountered on the roads were a couple different older people who, I suspect, no longer had full use of all their faculties. Taking it easy on an aging parent whose driving is declining could mean failing to prevent another wreck or worse.

Good luck to you. As we all told my grandfather when he complained we were being stubborn, "We got it from you."

partgypsy

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2022, 06:52:43 PM »
It's going to really vary. My Dad continued to drive, even on the highway, long distances till his death (just shy of 88). He hadn't gotten into any accidents or scrapes, but we knew his reflexes we're slower and we afraid of having that "talk", as he would drive from the Midwest to Florida and back again every winter.
Otoh my mother gave up her car willingly I dk about 4,5 years ago so mid 70s bc she honestly didn't feel comfortable driving any more. People vary. There are so many factors w aging that can affect safe driving.
 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 06:54:48 PM by partgypsy »

Cassie

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2022, 09:35:05 AM »
I think most people can figure it out for themselves when it’s no longer safe. My dad had a big stroke at 59 and immediately gave up driving. At 78 my mom quit driving at night and drove until she died at 89. I felt safe driving with her. My grandma however was a different story and had a few accidents in her early 60’s and many more close calls. Her kids convinced her to stop. I had a friend with Alzheimer’s who wouldn’t stop driving so my husband took her out for lunch while her husband and I sold her car. He couldn’t drive because of his cancer so we drove both of them everywhere until they both died a few years later.

Villanelle

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2022, 10:25:25 AM »
Mom and dad are both 79 and both still driving.  Mom is still an excellent driver.  She drives a bit slow, but as best I can recall she has always driven on the slow side, so that's not an age thing. And "slow" just means she's usually at the speed limit or only a few miles over on city streets, and no more than 70 on a 65 highway, so she's not a menace by any means, though she may be among the slowest cars on the road.

Dad has always had a tendency to accelerate a lot and brake a lot and that tendency has, well... accelerated with age.  I'd say he's not a good driver, but I don't think he's unsafe, unless you are prone to car sickness and riding in the car with him, or paying for his gas.

I do worry about them though, not so much because they shouldn't be driving now, but because I know there will likely be a point when that starts to be true.  Dad is proud and stubborn and won't listen to anyone, so I don't think any conversation would/will work.  Mom would be open, if it is handled sensitively (which means I'll need to do it as my sister is basically the antonym of sensitivity). 

If/when one of them no longer has the other, it will likely be even more challenging.  They are both extremely busy and active, and not driving would make that difficult.  I don't know that uber is a viable option for 2-3 errands a day, each of which is probably >10 miles, and often less than 5.  They do live in a golf-cart friendly community and there is a grocery store and drug store with in the golf cart zone, so that will be an option.  Mom could hope in a golf cart to head to her 2x weekly tennis games and her bridge club, for example. 

I think their choice of location, with everything close and with golf carts being legal and viable, will help a great deal if/when the time comes.  Although as I type this, I realize that maybe if they aren't car-safe, they aren't cart-safe.  At least golf carts go much slower and weigh less, so they do seem safer.  That might be a compromise we have to make, because ultimately, we can't force then to stop driving if they won't agree.  (We could try to challenge their license with the DMV, but that may or may not work.)  Thankfully, we aren't there yet as I do feel they are both still safe.

stoaX

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2022, 11:49:28 AM »
Would your in-laws consider downsizing to a golf cart?  They often work well in many 55+ communities.

Zamboni

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2022, 07:39:24 PM »
My Dad is in his late 70's and no longer drives, mostly because he gets confused. My step mom does all the driving and she seems to drive fine.

tl/dr: my elderly mom should not be driving, but we're at wits end with her.

And here's the long version:
My mid-80's Mom, on the other hand, drives a lot "for fun" and she has memory issues and should not be driving anymore just because of that (nevermind her flagging coordination). She also likes to take unpaved roads in rural areas in her Prius on these joy rides. It's not going to end well, so I just hope she doesn't harm anyone else.

The last time she was insisting on driving my daughter and I somewhere, and I declined politely, she became very angry and defensive. "Why don't you want me to drive you?! I'm an excellent driver!"

She absolutely flips her lid when anyone suggests that she not do something: in fact it pretty much guarantees she will immediately do it. An example is "Mom they are about to close the US-Canada border because of the pandemic, please stay home and don't cross it right now" resulted in her gleefully recounting how she crossed successfully twice the very next day to go buy some special dog biscuits. Seriously she drove for hours to Canada to get dog biscuits, the very day after we nicely suggested that she not go there. A couple of days later she expressed surprise when they did close the border . . . and then she tried to cover herself and pretend that she did remember us telling her they were going to do it.

And the last time they renewed her license it was for TEN FRICKING MORE YEARS! Once you hit 80, the renewal should not be for 10 years, because that's ridiculous. She refuses to be assessed by a doctor at all (calls the local doctor "the quack"), and I'm not sure how we could get her assessed for driver safety by the DMV. Sigh. How exactly do you do that?

I do like the "handyman" idea. She periodically has had a handyman over the years and she'd probably go for that, although I know she'd be super mean to any visiting nurse or housekeeper. Her perception with a handyman is always that he needs the work and therefore she is doing him a favor by hiring him, and so "handyman" help keeps her ego intact, I guess?

I'm in my 50's and already avoid driving at night as much as possible because I don't see as well at night and that makes it stressful. I'm definitely going to operate more like my Dad as I age.

Car Jack

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Re: When did your aging parents/grandparents/in-laws stop driving?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2022, 07:42:48 PM »
I would not recommend selling them your car.  Getting them a great car with good history is only encouraging them to drive.  Say they go to some slimy used car lot and get a junk that stops running.  Well....that keeps them from driving, right?

How to get someone to involuntarily stop?  I don't know.  My mom (86) won't drive at night, on a divided highway or in the winter.  My father in law (91)....well, I have always called him the second worst driver in the country even when he was in his 50's, so age hasn't actually made him worse.