Not sure if I can hold fast

[Albatross]

30 y/o, biglaw, US$126k p/a, worked for 5.5 years now.

I save 70% pre-tax income, 64% after tax. Saved $350k.

Property where I live will set you back 750k for a small, badly located apartment - so have not bought any yet.

Job mega stressful. Asshole boss(es).

Want to FI already, but have approx 13 years to go.

Sigh.

[Linea_Norway]

The big law jobs make good money, but are known to be extremely stressful and therefore bad for your health.
Can't you look for an alternative job, like working for some government agency? It might take longer for you to FIRE, but you might have more of a private life until that time and get healthier out of it.
Also, consider moving to a city or state with cheaper housing prices compared to income.

[Bucksandreds]

13 years is too long to be miserable. If you lower your money requirements in retirement then with your savings rate you are no where near needing 13 more years to retire. Why don't you set your sights for saving enough for bare bones retirement and then you would have the freedom to pursue something more fulfilling?

[Poundwise]

I agree, change jobs and live somewhere less expensive if you are not tied down to your current region.  Your 30s are (physically) some of the best years of your life. Don't waste them being miserable. The point of FIRE is to live well and enjoy life.   Frugality, not cheapness.

 

[Trifle]

Albatross -- I would start looking around immediately for something less stressful.  I was biglaw too at first with a complete a-hole for a boss.  It sucked.  After a few years I took a job at a small firm that was WAYYY better -- smaller salary, but nicer people and fewer hours.  I had actual quality of life. From there I went in house at a corporation.  In my opinion, in house is the sweet spot.  Decent salaries, way fewer hours, no timekeeping, and the ability to learn the industry of whatever corporation you are at.  That type of experience can even lead to management/project management gigs down the road if you like that kind of thing.  Not sure of your specialty (if any) but you may want to poke around and look for in house opportunities.

The positive things about starting out in biglaw: You have the "altitude" to cruise to other jobs (your resume looks great) and every job you have for the rest of your life will be better in comparison. (They'll feel easier too; no one can work harder than associates in biglaw.)   Good luck!
   
 

[Trifle]

PS -- just noticed you are 5.5 years in.  With the same firm?  Are you up for partner consideration soon?   

If so, a word of advice.  Making partner will accelerate your FIRE path, if you don't succumb to lifestyle creep.  However, partnership doesn't cure all the stress. Those A-hole bosses would now be your partners.  In some ways the stress can get worse.  A good friend of mine just left a partnership, and said "never again."  She's vowed to work 'of counsel' for the rest of her life.   

[Albatross]

13 years is too long to be miserable. If you lower your money requirements in retirement then with your savings rate you are no where near needing 13 more years to retire. Why don't you set your sights for saving enough for bare bones retirement and then you would have the freedom to pursue something more fulfilling?

Thanks Bucksandreds - I agree and still thinking how it's gonna work out. Another firm? Smaller firm? Entirely different job? I should start a side-hustle ideally and grow that.

I've set out all my future expenses and unfortunately it comes out to between 10 and 13 years more. The reason is mainly education costs for children. I live in HK and will probably have to put my kids (if and when I have them) in a private school, unless they can survive as bilinguals and thrive at the best local schools here!

I'm still dreaming of moving to New Zealand someday, getting some modest house with a beautiful open space for a garden and... for much cheaper. Only dreaming.

[Albatross]

PS -- just noticed you are 5.5 years in.  With the same firm?  Are you up for partner consideration soon?   

If so, a word of advice.  Making partner will accelerate your FIRE path, if you don't succumb to lifestyle creep.  However, partnership doesn't cure all the stress. Those A-hole bosses would now be your partners.  In some ways the stress can get worse.  A good friend of mine just left a partnership, and said "never again."  She's vowed to work 'of counsel' for the rest of her life.   

Thanks Trifele - appreciate the advice. I have also tasted inhouse life and it's amazing how refreshingly sane the people are. Not sure what it is but law tends to attract some odd characters (I suppose including myself!).

I work in a UK firm, so a slightly different idea of 'biglaw', with partnership in sight only after about 10 years (unless you magically bring in big fish clients), but yeah partnership is generally a contest to see who most resembles a turd.

[Fig]

I'm still dreaming of moving to New Zealand someday, getting some modest house with a beautiful open space for a garden and... for much cheaper. Only dreaming.

Does this have to be a dream? Is there a way it could become a reality?

[Bucksandreds]

13 years is too long to be miserable. If you lower your money requirements in retirement then with your savings rate you are no where near needing 13 more years to retire. Why don't you set your sights for saving enough for bare bones retirement and then you would have the freedom to pursue something more fulfilling?

Thanks Bucksandreds - I agree and still thinking how it's gonna work out. Another firm? Smaller firm? Entirely different job? I should start a side-hustle ideally and grow that.

I've set out all my future expenses and unfortunately it comes out to between 10 and 13 years more. The reason is mainly education costs for children. I live in HK and will probably have to put my kids (if and when I have them) in a private school, unless they can survive as bilinguals and thrive at the best local schools here!

I'm still dreaming of moving to New Zealand someday, getting some modest house with a beautiful open space for a garden and... for much cheaper. Only dreaming.

If you can save enough to leave Hong Kong then good school can be cheap in the US. For instance I live in the best school district in Central Ohio (multiple graduates enroll in Ivy league colleges every year and nearly 100% attend college) and my 2900 square foot brand new house was $359,000. That's high for Ohio and my property taxes of $8,000 per year go mostly to the schools but both the interest and tax are income tax deductible so it's not as bad as it sounds.  I pay about $ 1600- $1700 per month combined for the house and property tax (After income tax savings) and about $500 of what I'm spending is principal. I'm basically losing $1100-$1200 per month to have a large new house and great schools for my kids. For college I'll save about $50,000 total in each child's 529 account (should grow to over $100,000 in each as I'm front loading it to benefit from market gains). This should pay the majority of each child's college expenses at any state school in Ohio. The best for your kids doesn't have to delay fire 8 or so more years than it would otherwise.  Fire for me will cost me about 2-3 more full time working years because of kids.

Also consider saving enough to allow for part time work as opposed to killing yourself until you don't have to work at all. I'm full timing it until I can afford to work 2 days per week and then I'll switch to that for 20 years or so with frequent spells of long vacations.  I've found that working a little for 20 years will far beat 3-5 more years of working full time. My profession (dentistry) allows anything from several hours of work per week to 60 or more, so it might be easier for me.

[2Birds1Stone]

If you have $300k and a 70% savings rate, you do NOT have 13 years to go ;) More like 4-5.

[soccerluvof4]

I agree with alot of the other comments above. You have your whole life ahead of you and some of your best earning years. I would start really looking for something that will be a better fit for what you want while your young.

[chesebert]

OP,
Need facts:
US, UK or HK bar?
Expat or local HK?
Years PQE?
Practice group?
Read/write Chinese or English only?

FYI, your counterparts in the Wall Street firms are making 280k + 80k expat package not including bonus. You gotta try harder!

[human]

Forget the kids, if you are American just work another 5 years and head back home. You're super stressed at work and you want to add more stress with kids? Why do people insist on doing this to themselves.

[lizzigee]

Some people actually feel that giving and receiving love from your children is more important than oodles of money Human. (Not saying it's not stressful, but I personally found there is nothing like the love of your child and the wonder they bring into your life.) Do you have anything constructive to offer the OP?

Edit for typo

[human]

That was constructive and you misunderstood my intent. Someone who is stressed at work and working long hours and striving for fire and depressed about their lot in life may not be in the right place to have kids. Figure yourself out before brining a new little human being into the world that is completely dependent on you.

[Albatross]

If you have $300k and a 70% savings rate, you do NOT have 13 years to go ;) More like 4-5.

2Birds1Stone - that might be the case in many places in the world but I am settled here in Hong Kong. I am hoping that some years in local school for my theoretical kids will greatly reduce time to FI (however culturally and linguistically this will be a challenge). I am also hoping there will be a property crash, but highly unlikely as there is too much hot Mainland Chinese money flowing in.

[Albatross]

13 years is too long to be miserable. If you lower your money requirements in retirement then with your savings rate you are no where near needing 13 more years to retire. Why don't you set your sights for saving enough for bare bones retirement and then you would have the freedom to pursue something more fulfilling?

Thanks Bucksandreds - I agree and still thinking how it's gonna work out. Another firm? Smaller firm? Entirely different job? I should start a side-hustle ideally and grow that.

I've set out all my future expenses and unfortunately it comes out to between 10 and 13 years more. The reason is mainly education costs for children. I live in HK and will probably have to put my kids (if and when I have them) in a private school, unless they can survive as bilinguals and thrive at the best local schools here!

I'm still dreaming of moving to New Zealand someday, getting some modest house with a beautiful open space for a garden and... for much cheaper. Only dreaming.

If you can save enough to leave Hong Kong then good school can be cheap in the US. For instance I live in the best school district in Central Ohio (multiple graduates enroll in Ivy league colleges every year and nearly 100% attend college) and my 2900 square foot brand new house was $359,000. That's high for Ohio and my property taxes of $8,000 per year go mostly to the schools but both the interest and tax are income tax deductible so it's not as bad as it sounds.  I pay about $ 1600- $1700 per month combined for the house and property tax (After income tax savings) and about $500 of what I'm spending is principal. I'm basically losing $1100-$1200 per month to have a large new house and great schools for my kids. For college I'll save about $50,000 total in each child's 529 account (should grow to over $100,000 in each as I'm front loading it to benefit from market gains). This should pay the majority of each child's college expenses at any state school in Ohio. The best for your kids doesn't have to delay fire 8 or so more years than it would otherwise.  Fire for me will cost me about 2-3 more full time working years because of kids.

Also consider saving enough to allow for part time work as opposed to killing yourself until you don't have to work at all. I'm full timing it until I can afford to work 2 days per week and then I'll switch to that for 20 years or so with frequent spells of long vacations.  I've found that working a little for 20 years will far beat 3-5 more years of working full time. My profession (dentistry) allows anything from several hours of work per week to 60 or more, so it might be easier for me.

Thanks that's helpful - not a US citizen, but I may have other options open to me (perhaps around SE Asia). Unfortunately it's not really seen as a 'done thing' for lawyers to go part time. Good luck with your plans! Glad kids aren't really setting you back too much on FIRE. I do want kids and it's a shame there's a very anti-mustachian culture in Hong Kong towards child development.

[Albatross]

OP,
Need facts:
US, UK or HK bar?
Expat or local HK?
Years PQE?
Practice group?
Read/write Chinese or English only?

FYI, your counterparts in the Wall Street firms are making 280k + 80k expat package not including bonus. You gotta try harder!

Thanks Chesebert - I am aware that other lawyers earn more. I won't reveal too much about my pqe, practice area etc - suffice it to say I'm being paid perhaps in the lower bracket for what I do, but the higher bracket wouldn't make much of a difference. I'm on the contentious side which tends to attract a certain animal of egomania.

I will start a side-hustle - but I am acutely aware that it's not necessarily a money machine.

That was constructive and you misunderstood my intent. Someone who is stressed at work and working long hours and striving for fire and depressed about their lot in life may not be in the right place to have kids. Figure yourself out before brining a new little human being into the world that is completely dependent on you.

Thanks Human - and yes understood I need to be in a good place myself before I have kids (and I do want kids). Financially speaking, I'm already very secure compared to my contemporaries - but all of us on this forum know what true FI is and I am not close to it by Hong Kong standards (most ppl my generation have basically given up, and just spend money to enjoy themselves now). I am not depressed in life though! Just the job that's bearing down on me. I know that if I wanted to quit I'm sure I could just become a teacher of some sort, or do odd jobs to make ends meet and not worry too much about financing for my kids. My opening post was more a statement that I am far away from my FI goals and sometimes it just feels too far away.

[bugbaby]

Remember, it's not all or none - the choice is not 13yrs big law vs quit now. you can hang in for say 2 or 5 more years then switch to a lower stress job or location.  I agree, as a mustachian you're already way ahead of the curve.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

[Trifle]

Hi again Albatross.  You have several considerations here -- job awfulness, cost of living, cost of future kids,etc.  Rather than get bogged down and possibly paralyzed by considering all of them simultaneously, maybe you should pick one to address now, and then let things shake out from that first change.  See what develops.  Even though as mustachians we are master planners, sometimes it's best to jump feet first into one change to get things started.  You might be surprised what develops.  And easier to do now when you are young and life is relatively uncomplicated.

For example -- get another job now in Hong Kong.  Or -- leave HK and go to New Zealand, if you're pretty sure that's where you want to be long term. 

Life is short.  Certainly too short to be miserable. 

Good luck!