cross-roads in career.... update

[Case]

Hello all,
A few months ago I posted about my situation at my work place.  I had/have been having a sort-of career mid-life crisis. 

In summary, I had been struggling to have impact, as well as struggling to advance, in my current workplace.  A very visible start-up was really interested in me.  They were located in Austin which was a deal breaker for my spouse.  I ended up going to visit them, knowing that I wasn't going to accept an offer anyways.  The visit confirmed that it was a place I'd be excited to work at, and so I felt the trip was worthwhile for me personally.  However, I didn't pursue further because I prioritize my marriage above work, and so that story ends there.  You can read more at the link:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/struggling-with-making-decisions-wrt-major-life-choices/msg3196219/#msg3196219


Where the story re-starts: 
I am considering switching to a different business within the same company.  If you can provide any perspectives on deciding to take such a leap, I would appreciate feedback.


Current job (Business A):
I am a project leader in R&D.  I generally like my job, but don't love it.  If I stay in my current job, I will probably just try to optimize my projects to give me maximum fulfillment with minimum work, and accept that I'll always have a mediocre salary with no major chance for advancement.

Pros: 
1) familiar, somewhat easy, maintain connections to past projects I have advanced and perhaps help them move farther;
2) manager is trying to switch me to more impactful projects.  If I am successful, then I think it will make me happier and more fulfilled. 
3) The people in my current business/group are excellent coworkers. 
4) My manager is extremely flexible in terms of WFH, hours, vacation, etc...

Cons: 
1)  My business is in a tight spot (poor profitability), and has a weak product development pipeline.  Most of the products we produce are not very exciting, the applications are often not exciting (pretty old technology which is fighting commoditization).  Instead, it is pivoting towards trying to improving profit margins/etc on existing products, rather than ensuring long-term growth (my old project which is slowly being killed).  People in my business are not sure whether this is the beginning of a long death spiral for the business, or if the improved margins will sustain the business.  But it's unlikely to be a business that experiences the growth that we say we want.
2)  My business could do better at career development for younger employees.  Especially in R&D, former-early-career employees like me have now transitioned into mid-career employees at this point.  Most of us are at 'career level' (we have received 2 promotions, and the majority of people will receive no more after that; this is mostly the result of a poor business choice to make a huge gap between 'career level' and the next level, which in R&D is called 'fellow' often).  I could try to switch out of R&D and into something different (marketing, technical services, product stewardship, product management...).  Without getting into too much detail, the options that have been presented to me require several months just to make it happen, and then I have to spend some years in a lateral position, and then supposedly this will begin to open doors for me.  Long story short is that it is high risk for me; I am more passionate about R&D, and so taking a multiyear lateral which *might* eventually pay off is risky.  Did I mention that eventually I will FIRE?  (unless I decide I really love my job)
3)  Salary at my job is mediocre.  My manager (and I suspect her manager) do not want employees to ask about salary or promotions.  Generally speaking, this is discouraged in my business (this is not stated, but we can read between the lines).  I have only asked about these things a couple times, but when I did, management appears to be dangling a carrot which they have no intention to deliver on.  For example, my manager has told me I have good career development potential and is happy to build me more responsibilities/etc, but meanwhile she and the director have emphasized that the next level is 'fellow' level in our organization, that "some of our most important engineers are your level", that "So-and-so just got promoted after a long career of dedication and impact", and so I shouldn't expect a promotion (while in R&D) for many many years, possibly ever.  As I told them, I am not seeking to get ahead of my coworkers whom I respect.  But this is a capitalist society, and I think it's fair for employees to want a realistic development plan that includes milestones and rewards in the form of pay increases.  And at the very least, I want to be accurately told what the situation is, not given false hope.  Long-story-short is that I feel if I stay in my current business, then I probably get opportunities to further develop myself and make an impact, which I will enjoy.  But likely I will not be rewarded for it.
4)  Business A has a director that is extremely controlling and he really dictates a lot of the negative culture above.  He seems to like me actually... is pushing me towards a lateral move (under him), which as described, would require me to take a job I'm not thrilled about for a couple years before getting the position I actually want.  I don't know how long the director will be around, but impression is that he's not leaving any time soon.  This director is pretty authoritarian and you have to be pretty careful what you say around him.


Opportunity (Business B):
I can switch to a different business in my company.  Some of the details still need to come together on exactly what the job will be.  I can pursue this information, though I have to be a little careful.  There is an expectation that once I apply for a new internal job, that I must notify my current manager.  Once I apply, I would think I better intend to switch, as then my manager will know.

Pros: 
1)  Business B has a void with respect to mid-career employees.  They have a lot of late-career employees that aren't doing so well at leading/coaching young employees.  They really need mid-career employees with some leadership ability, and I could fill that gap pretty well.  I also have a particular technical skill set (from a past job) that will be useful for Business B.
2)  I may be able to line up a faster transition to a role with increased responsibilities.  This may result in a more rapid promotion, and Business B doesn't treat the next promotion level as such a gargantuan step.  Chasing promotions is really not my main focus.  It's more that I have having doors closed on me, or feeling not supported.  It's a major demotivator.
3)  There is a chance that I can get a pay raise in switching to the new group, but I wont know until I get the offer in hand.  I am not sure how to de-risk this without actually applying for the job (which then clues in my current manager).
4)  Business B has a stronger product pipeline and has more potential for growth and new/interesting products.

Cons:
1)  Historically there has been some turmoil/drama in Business B, whereas Business A is more stable.  The late-career fellows at Business B have developed somewhat of a toxic culture; new leadership/management is trying to control/squash this, but we'll see how it goes.
2)  Depending on the exact role, I would still be in R&D but in a leveraged organization that might see it's work through all the way to manufacturing.  Instead, they develop early stage technology and then hand it off.  If I went this route, I'd probably strongly advocate for a stronger connection here, but don't know how this would play out.
3)  I would have to give up my nice office for an open cubicle.  On the one hand, this is not a huge deal and I'd try to come in, be 'all-business', and then leave for the day.  On the other hand, I'm not sure if it will hinder my ability to focus due to distractions.
4)  Have to start-over.  I have switched groups a few times in my career and so this is not new to me... just acknowledging that it will take 6 months or so for me to get up to speed.

[leevs11]

How long have you been in your current role?

Personally I think it's good for people to change jobs every 3-4 years. This keeps me constantly learning and growing. It also helps to keep me fresh for interviewing and talking about my accomplishments.

What's the downside to telling your manager that you're interested in the other role? A good manager should be excited for you and want you to explore these things. They should also be accepting if you don't get the role and stick it out at your current job for a while longer. I wouldn't worry about this too much. It's really normal for people to move around in companies.

If I were you, I'd explore it. I'd also explore a few other roles outside of the company. It's good to know your options. You're going to be FI in a few years anyway, might as well try some stuff while you're still working.

Good luck!

[Case]

How long have you been in your current role?

Personally I think it's good for people to change jobs every 3-4 years. This keeps me constantly learning and growing. It also helps to keep me fresh for interviewing and talking about my accomplishments.

What's the downside to telling your manager that you're interested in the other role? A good manager should be excited for you and want you to explore these things. They should also be accepting if you don't get the role and stick it out at your current job for a while longer. I wouldn't worry about this too much. It's really normal for people to move around in companies.

If I were you, I'd explore it. I'd also explore a few other roles outside of the company. It's good to know your options. You're going to be FI in a few years anyway, might as well try some stuff while you're still working.

Good luck!

6 years, so certainly I have been in it long enough.  I have been (until just now) in ‘new’ areas that are outside the businesses core competencies (adjacent rather).  So I have room to learn more but also it is mor of the same.

In telling my manager, I’d worry she’d freak out because they have lost some people recently, have very few mid career employees, and I'm starting up a new project with some urgency needed in it.

[Laura33]

I'd say you need to change jobs.  Or, if possible, companies.

R&D is generally very, very vulnerable -- it can be one of the first things to get cut when money gets tight.  And R&D that isn't even R&D anymore, with lots of promising new products, but which is instead just focused on squeezing another dime out of a dying product line, is going to be even more vulnerable.  If you want to stay R&D, you at least need to be doing R&D in an area with a very promising product line.  Also, R&D doesn't tend to be as highly-paid as the areas that directly bring in revenue to the company (which, again, is why it is more vulnerable to economic crises).  So you will never be as highly-paid in that area than in others.  This may be a worthwhile tradeoff for you if you're excited about the stuff you're doing* -- but it sounds like your current job doesn't qualify.

Your manager/company has told you what they care about -- not by what they say, but by what they have done for you and all those around you.  There's nothing whatsoever in your description that suggests to me they value in any way the work you do or your possible career development.  Their goal appears to be to pay just enough to keep you from jumping ship, and when you voice unhappiness, make just enough promises to keep you hanging around for another 6 months to see if anything happens.  They've directly told you your career trajectory there:  keep doing what you're doing for another 20 years, and maybe at the end of it you'll get a promotion.  If you're more ambitious than that, then this is not the place for you.  Remember that Dear Abby/Dear Ann/Dr. Phil comment:  when someone tells you who they are, believe them.

This second point is what gives me pause about your alternative option.  Sounds like the old guard has created a toxic work environment that has succeeded in scaring away the good mid-level people they need to keep things running smoothly.  Walking in to a known toxic work environment strikes me as an incredibly stupid thing to do, unless you absolutely need this job more than you need air.  And going in to it thinking that upper management has your back, and you can change things, is a recipe for disappointment and career suicide.  I can almost guarantee that you are not the first person to take such a role with those hopes.  And where are those other folks now?  Hint:  not there.  Because they either gave up or were forced out by the old guard who apparently still has enough power to maintain their grip on the area.

IMO, the answer is to keep looking.  Barring an economic meltdown, your current job is likely safe for the next however long you need it to be; you're not going to get raises, promotions, or mentoring, but you'll also not be miserable and very likely not get fired.  That's a really solid base to work from as you investigate other career opportunities that will serve you better for the longer term.

You get what you settle for.  If you stay put, or if you take this other option in front of you, you'll never know if there was something even better out there.  If you put all your energy into figuring out the lesser of two evils, you don't have any energy left to find something that may be affirmatively good.


*That's the path my DH chose.  His company has a very, very stupid rule that if you want to be VP, you need to become a VP in an entirely different area that you know nothing about; even though they're tech-based, they see business skills as more valuable and entirely transferrable, and do not think deep technical knowledge of the business area has any value whatsoever.  Which is totally awesome when your business includes stuff like quantum computing -- nothing like having people responsible for key business decisions who literally do not understand even the most basic things about the product, right?  Probably 10 years ago, my DH had to decide whether to stay with the tech that he was so excited about (and had a freaking Ph.D in!), or go the business track and walk away from it all.  He chose to stay with the tech, and he's been content with that decision (even though it means constantly dealing with bosses who know nothing about their own business area -- which in the end will be why he walks away at some point).  But that choice works only if you are legitimately geeked out about what you are doing. 

[Case]

I'd say you need to change jobs.  Or, if possible, companies.

R&D is generally very, very vulnerable -- it can be one of the first things to get cut when money gets tight.  And R&D that isn't even R&D anymore, with lots of promising new products, but which is instead just focused on squeezing another dime out of a dying product line, is going to be even more vulnerable.  If you want to stay R&D, you at least need to be doing R&D in an area with a very promising product line.  Also, R&D doesn't tend to be as highly-paid as the areas that directly bring in revenue to the company (which, again, is why it is more vulnerable to economic crises).  So you will never be as highly-paid in that area than in others.  This may be a worthwhile tradeoff for you if you're excited about the stuff you're doing* -- but it sounds like your current job doesn't qualify.

Your manager/company has told you what they care about -- not by what they say, but by what they have done for you and all those around you.  There's nothing whatsoever in your description that suggests to me they value in any way the work you do or your possible career development.  Their goal appears to be to pay just enough to keep you from jumping ship, and when you voice unhappiness, make just enough promises to keep you hanging around for another 6 months to see if anything happens.  They've directly told you your career trajectory there:  keep doing what you're doing for another 20 years, and maybe at the end of it you'll get a promotion.  If you're more ambitious than that, then this is not the place for you.  Remember that Dear Abby/Dear Ann/Dr. Phil comment:  when someone tells you who they are, believe them.

This second point is what gives me pause about your alternative option.  Sounds like the old guard has created a toxic work environment that has succeeded in scaring away the good mid-level people they need to keep things running smoothly.  Walking in to a known toxic work environment strikes me as an incredibly stupid thing to do, unless you absolutely need this job more than you need air.  And going in to it thinking that upper management has your back, and you can change things, is a recipe for disappointment and career suicide.  I can almost guarantee that you are not the first person to take such a role with those hopes.  And where are those other folks now?  Hint:  not there.  Because they either gave up or were forced out by the old guard who apparently still has enough power to maintain their grip on the area.

IMO, the answer is to keep looking.  Barring an economic meltdown, your current job is likely safe for the next however long you need it to be; you're not going to get raises, promotions, or mentoring, but you'll also not be miserable and very likely not get fired.  That's a really solid base to work from as you investigate other career opportunities that will serve you better for the longer term.

You get what you settle for.  If you stay put, or if you take this other option in front of you, you'll never know if there was something even better out there.  If you put all your energy into figuring out the lesser of two evils, you don't have any energy left to find something that may be affirmatively good.


*That's the path my DH chose.  His company has a very, very stupid rule that if you want to be VP, you need to become a VP in an entirely different area that you know nothing about; even though they're tech-based, they see business skills as more valuable and entirely transferrable, and do not think deep technical knowledge of the business area has any value whatsoever.  Which is totally awesome when your business includes stuff like quantum computing -- nothing like having people responsible for key business decisions who literally do not understand even the most basic things about the product, right?  Probably 10 years ago, my DH had to decide whether to stay with the tech that he was so excited about (and had a freaking Ph.D in!), or go the business track and walk away from it all.  He chose to stay with the tech, and he's been content with that decision (even though it means constantly dealing with bosses who know nothing about their own business area -- which in the end will be why he walks away at some point).  But that choice works only if you are legitimately geeked out about what you are doing.

Thanks @Laura33 !

I'll give a few more details which I held off on since my post was already pretty long.

-Job vulnerability:  it doesn't worry me too much.  I'll never be a lower performer, so the only scenario I get fired is if SHTF, as you said.  In this scenario, I at least get a package!

-My manager:  she has done some things for me, and is willing to help me get opportunities to develop.  Leading a big project, getting visiblity to the director, etc... she has helped me with these things over the past couple of years.  So I am grateful for that, because my managers prior to her were all terrible and did nothing.  What worries with my manager is that that is where she stops; she will get me development opportunities; these are great win-win scenarios because I get more experience and the business gets more work done.  She hasn't tried to get me any promotions, and she has told me that I'm in the middle of the pay band and so she wont try to get me a salary increase (I'm 7-15% below the pay band average, which I guess she considers to be in the bulk of it).  When I look around my organization (other manager's people) there are a lot of people in the same situation as me (similar years of experience, or more, sitting at similar rank in R&D).  I think what bothers me the most is not having a larger plan involving me. 

-My director (manager's boss):  A couple times, the director has pitched a career move for me (out of R&D and into the PS&R), which he has said will be the short cut for me.  But there are some major cons:  1) there is a ton of fire fighting and its kind of a mess right now; 2) although there a few things in the role I could be passionate about, there are a lot of things that I am not; 3) Slow; I have to spend a couple years in a lateral position before getting what I'm actually going for.  So, this is not looking attractive right now.

-Business B toxic culture:  they've brought in a new director who is trying to change things, she has fired some of the toxic old guard, though some remains.  She and management there are working on it currently.  Due to the void of mid-career people, they may have more opportunities that match my long term growth.  I should probably investigate more to learn exactly what the roles would be and what the cultural issues I'd be up against.

-Other companies:  I haven't identified good local matches yet, though that doesn't mean they aren't there.  There are other local companies around.  One of the perks of staying with the current company is a very short commute.  My spouse is at the same company, so relocating isn't really an option (actually she is in Business B and is part of the management that is trying to tackle the toxic culture).

-Geeking our in R&D:  I've been in R&D for like 20 years now, if you count school (PhD as well).  I used to be more attached to particular technologies, but after working on a wide variety, what I learned is that most projects have something technically interesting in them.  What I find more interesting are the applications, and whether they have potential for a large impact in the world.  In my current role, I used to have a project that was very impactful, but it is dying slowly; I could have gone the start-up route to further pursue this passion, but it wasn't a location match for my spouse.  So, I'm flexible on what I work on.  I do feel some attachments to things I am currently working on, but I guess I need to work on letting some of that stuff go.

FIRE plans:  I haven't really nailed it down.  We could FIRE immediately if I had to, but probably I want to work a few more years to fortify the stache.  If we found we really loved our jobs, we might be motivated to keep working.  But we also want to relocate eventually... perhaps start some side gig job.

Settling:  With all that said, one route I could go is to settle for what I have and lower my aspirations.  To some degree it's unnatural for me, as I have always been a fairly driven person.  But it could be healthier for me stress-wise, if I stop trying to get ahead (when I'm clearly failing at it) and take advantage of the job perks (WFH flexibility, and I could probably work less hard than I do).  I haven't figured out a plan for what I will do when/if I FIRE, and maybe I can find alternative life paths that will give me satisfaction and purpose.  I really don't know what the answer is.

[Laura33]

I really don't know what the answer is.

No one does.  Welcome to the show.

You know what the real secret of life is?  You don't actually have to get it right at this precise minute.  Hell, most of us get it wrong more often than we get it right.  Luckily, we also learn more from discovering what we can't live with than we do from stumbling into something that fits perfectly right from the start.

The only way you figure out the right path for you is to try one and see if it fits.  There's no perfect option out there; everything has promises, and everything has tradeoffs.  Your job is to do the research, pick the combination that seems to provide the most of the former with the fewest of the latter, and see if that works.  If it doesn't, figure out where your initial analysis went wrong -- maybe you didn't know something, or you thought X compromise was fine but it turns out what you gave up meant more than you thought, or your life and priorities changed, etc.  And then take that new knowledge and try something else. 

You've got a couple of really good options right in front of you. And TBH, your current choice isn't anywhere near as important as it feels in the moment.  The highs wear off, and you either figure workarounds for the lows, or you get a new job.  So choose one, live with it a while, see how it feels, how it fits the kind of life you want.  Maybe you'll decide that being driven isn't worth the tradeoffs in flexibilty and commute and find yourself happy where you are until you decide to pull the plug.  Maybe you'll decide that the potential for a toxic culture is worth a shot (particularly as you have an up-close view of management's current efforts) and decide the new job is worth a shot.  And maybe you'll be right, whichever path you choose. 

Or maybe not.  But hey, if you're going to get it wrong, doing so while being paid a shit-ton of money in a convenient location with resonable hours, with a happy spouse, all the while socking money away and getting closer and closer to FIRE, is a pretty nice way to live while you figure out what else to try, eh? 

[Case]

I really don't know what the answer is.

No one does.  Welcome to the show.

You know what the real secret of life is?  You don't actually have to get it right at this precise minute.  Hell, most of us get it wrong more often than we get it right.  Luckily, we also learn more from discovering what we can't live with than we do from stumbling into something that fits perfectly right from the start.

The only way you figure out the right path for you is to try one and see if it fits.  There's no perfect option out there; everything has promises, and everything has tradeoffs.  Your job is to do the research, pick the combination that seems to provide the most of the former with the fewest of the latter, and see if that works.  If it doesn't, figure out where your initial analysis went wrong -- maybe you didn't know something, or you thought X compromise was fine but it turns out what you gave up meant more than you thought, or your life and priorities changed, etc.  And then take that new knowledge and try something else. 

You've got a couple of really good options right in front of you. And TBH, your current choice isn't anywhere near as important as it feels in the moment.  The highs wear off, and you either figure workarounds for the lows, or you get a new job.  So choose one, live with it a while, see how it feels, how it fits the kind of life you want.  Maybe you'll decide that being driven isn't worth the tradeoffs in flexibilty and commute and find yourself happy where you are until you decide to pull the plug.  Maybe you'll decide that the potential for a toxic culture is worth a shot (particularly as you have an up-close view of management's current efforts) and decide the new job is worth a shot.  And maybe you'll be right, whichever path you choose. 

Or maybe not.  But hey, if you're going to get it wrong, doing so while being paid a shit-ton of money in a convenient location with resonable hours, with a happy spouse, all the while socking money away and getting closer and closer to FIRE, is a pretty nice way to live while you figure out what else to try, eh?

Thanks for the sage advice, Laura!

[Case]

I really don't know what the answer is.

No one does.  Welcome to the show.

You know what the real secret of life is?  You don't actually have to get it right at this precise minute.  Hell, most of us get it wrong more often than we get it right.  Luckily, we also learn more from discovering what we can't live with than we do from stumbling into something that fits perfectly right from the start.

The only way you figure out the right path for you is to try one and see if it fits.  There's no perfect option out there; everything has promises, and everything has tradeoffs.  Your job is to do the research, pick the combination that seems to provide the most of the former with the fewest of the latter, and see if that works.  If it doesn't, figure out where your initial analysis went wrong -- maybe you didn't know something, or you thought X compromise was fine but it turns out what you gave up meant more than you thought, or your life and priorities changed, etc.  And then take that new knowledge and try something else. 

You've got a couple of really good options right in front of you. And TBH, your current choice isn't anywhere near as important as it feels in the moment.  The highs wear off, and you either figure workarounds for the lows, or you get a new job.  So choose one, live with it a while, see how it feels, how it fits the kind of life you want.  Maybe you'll decide that being driven isn't worth the tradeoffs in flexibilty and commute and find yourself happy where you are until you decide to pull the plug.  Maybe you'll decide that the potential for a toxic culture is worth a shot (particularly as you have an up-close view of management's current efforts) and decide the new job is worth a shot.  And maybe you'll be right, whichever path you choose. 

Or maybe not.  But hey, if you're going to get it wrong, doing so while being paid a shit-ton of money in a convenient location with resonable hours, with a happy spouse, all the while socking money away and getting closer and closer to FIRE, is a pretty nice way to live while you figure out what else to try, eh?

One more update:

Very recently a start-up formed near my location, and they made a posting for a job that I was a partial match for.  I interviewed, but did not get an offer for that role because they found someone with the exact skill set they needed.  Makes sense.
However, it looks like I impressed them somewhat as they created a role for me, posted it, and how I have a job offer that I need to decide on rapidly.

One of the quirks on this job is that a friend of mine is the CEO.  He didn't interview me (had his CTO interview me).
Working for a friend obviously has some risk, but it doesn't greatly concern me.  My friend and I are both mature, and I think can be respectful to each other if the SHTF.  I'm aware that going this route risks our friendship, and I am ok with that (again, we are both mature, so seems unlikely), but it probably will change the dynamic of our friendship.  I am ok with this.  He is someone that I actually look up to a bit, and I think he generally has a sound mind for decision making... I guess I generally feel that we will be consistent on decision making (and anyways, he calls the shots, which is fine by me).

I likely will accept this role.  It hits a few criterion that will be hard to replicate:
-Interesting technology with potential to change the world
-Pay is a nice bump from my current job
-In my current location, so that alleviates an of the aforementioned issues with my spouse moving and her job
-this is not some random start-up.  It has some serious R&D behind its founding and is backed by a major US company.  I think it is likely the start-up will be around for at least a few years, which is long enough.  And after that, we can cross the next bridge.

So, I would be leaving my comfortable, 'easy' job, which has very slow career progression and very slow pay progression.  I'd have to give up my passion project at work that I dream will commercialize, but there is significant risk it wont due to 'business complications'.
In exchange, I'll have a longer commute, more stress (I assume), will be challenged to a higher degree, will be immediately rewarded more, and have significantly higher upside potential.  I think that if I gave up this opportunity, I would regret it.

[Laura33]

I think that if I gave up this opportunity, I would regret it.

Well there's your answer.  Congratulations!!  Certainly sounds worth a shot at the very least.