Having "The Talk" With a Risk Averse SO - Money & Lifestyle

[MoneyMouse]

So, I'm trying to get Mr. Mouse to see my view of Mustachianism.

Unfortunately, my lovely man is a highly risk-averse classically educated "Economist" with a childhood full of the early retirement aspirations of his Lotto-ticket-buying mother and the classic big-bank calculators crying that you need millions of dollars to retire nowadays.

I've had as much of "A Talk" with him as I can at this point, and encouraged him to read the Shockingly Simple Math post. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to be enough to convince him about the possibility of retiring early.

His initial thoughts and feelings are that it's much too risky a financial move to even consider, but we agree that the more saving we can do, the better. He just doesn't believe that a low cost of living and an aggressive saving pattern are enough. Do you Mustachians have any other posts he can read? Perhaps posts from bloggers or finance gurus outside of MMM, or articles from banks (if they exist) or research papers? He's looked into the FIREcalcs, but can only see that there are a few portfolios who fail - and fixates on those.

Another question that's come up - and one I'd love some more insight/discussion on - is the question of a difference in lifestyle. Not so much between a standard of living now versus a Mustachian one (we already live fairly reasonably, I think - one hardly used car, walking or public transit to work), but moreso a difference in perceived values in the long-term.

Mr. Mouse is an introvert and really loves to help people in his job as a student advisor. I'm much more a creative free-spirit and can trust myself to find and build routines/structures and communities around my interests - heck, it's what I do right now. Mr. Mouse is a little worried that a life free of the routine of work - even if it's me and not him living it - is going to cause too much of a rift between us.

Now, for those who've seen my other post, you'll know we're going to counselling to address the deeper, underlying issues in this, but I was curious to see if others have already dealt with some of this, and your tips or experiences in having these Talks with your SOs.

Thanks, guys!

PS: I'm loving the community, support and information you all are giving so far. Thank you so much!

[ixtap]

How far are you from your number? As long as the savings are there, there are tons of options down the road.

[fuzzy math]

So, I'm trying to get Mr. Mouse to see my view of Mustachianism.

His initial thoughts and feelings are that it's much too risky a financial move to even consider, but we agree that the more saving we can do, the better. He just doesn't believe that a low cost of living and an aggressive saving pattern are enough.

So if the markets don't hold up, is his back up plan stock piling cat food? I'm confused about what his issue is. Even the most ardent pessimists recognize that they have to fund their retirement. If he made some traction, he'd eventually see the rewards in returns. His threshold for FIRE safe withdrawal rates might differ than yours but at this point you are a decade away from achieving it, so the idea has some time to grow on him.

I would also consider very gently reminding him that while his anxiety and depression are not under control, that he may have more difficulty being open to the idea. At this point all you can do is lead by example.

[Bicycle_B]

Hi, MoneyMouse.  Neither Canadian nor a relationship expert here, but older (hence experience...hey, mistakes count!) and more or less Mustached; left job a few years ago, richer now than then. 

Mostly posting to say hi, and congratulate you on moving forwards.  I read the other post too. 
 You sound like you're doing pretty well, given that most other people quietly struggle too.  None of these things you are dealing with are easy, but (if I can say so inoffensively) none of them uncommon.  You're addressing each of the important things, so I greatly congratulate you.  Earning, surviving cash crunch, saving, starting a relationship, learning to invest, communicating about relationship, getting counseling for All These Feelings with so many strands in the air - good job!  To me it seems you are on the pace that a normal smart person would likely find herself in, en route to gradual success and satisfaction. 

Certainly you are moving faster and more successfully than I did at your age.  For what it's worth, remember that this board is full of high achievers and therefore sets a high bar - if you're anywhere close to keeping up with the Mustache Joneses, you're going to be far ahead of the normal spenders, even if it feels hard sometimes. 

Many best wishes to you.

PS.  Have you read Lifejoy's post on "How to Convert your SO to MMM"? 
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/

It's not completely applicable, but still encouraging.  It does point out that these things take time. 

It might be worth asking if he'd explore and venture a tentative opinion about portfoliocharts.com (https://portfoliocharts.com/ ).  This is a site that contains numerous charts based on past financial data, showing all of the best and worst performances of various investment portfolios.  In theory, it could be viewed as showing an approximate minimum value.  Realistically, his issue is likely to be emotion, but maybe this sort of Early Retirement oriented analysis might involve him in his own process of at least realizing that the facts show safety is possible.  Just a thought.

[Linea_Norway]

Maybe just give it some time.

The two of you already agree on that saving is smart. So take it from there. For FIRE, you could focus on the FI part, instead of the RE part. Or suggesting part-time work in the future.

I understand that a risk averse person is sceptic to giving up an income completely. But he could be interested in just saving a lot to see if you could reach FI. And then work fewer weeks a year and take extended vacations. This strategy you can safely follow without doing any harm.

[Laura33]

First, ITA with reading the "how to convert your SO" sticky.  Repeatedly.

Second (and based on your other post, this is for you, not him):  please understand and accept that you don't need to have the end pre-determined at the beginning.  You both seem to be on about the same page on day-to-day lifestyle and the importance of savings.  I'll let you in on a big secret:  that is 95% of the battle right there.  So congratulations -- you've already won!  You just don't know it yet.

FWIW, his worries are completely legitimate; many people don't have any sense of what to do in retirement and worry that they will sink into lives of sloth and boredom without an externally-imposed structure.*  There are no words in the entire English language that will convince him that everything will be ok -- he will need to see it and feel it for himself.

So what do you do?  Your job is to build a relationship and a daily life that is satisfying and mutually supportive and as frugal/minimal as makes you both happy (hint:  this is where the "How to convert your SO" sticky comes in handy).  Develop mutual/individual interests and hobbies, circles of friends, interests outside work.  Build your relationship with relaxed evenings together, talking about your hopes and dreams over a bottle of wine.  And just keep stashing the money away, day after week after month after year.  The idea -- the goal -- is that after however many years, you look up, and you have a big ol' 'stache sitting there, and this whole world of interests calling you, and he finally realizes that his job is getting in the way of all those other things he'd rather do instead.  Presto -- the anxiety fades, his impatience with the hassles of daily work grows, and he gets on board with FIRE.

But maybe that won't happen.  Maybe he really does enjoy the structure of his job, not just in terms of filling his time, but giving him a framework in which to connect with and be useful to other humans.**  So, what's your worst-case scenario here?  You have the money to FIRE, but he doesn't want to.  Ummmmm, ok.  So you FIRE, you go fill your days with all of those interesting things, and then you still get to come home and spend time with him and do things together.  Obviously, you'd need to talk this all through when you get there to avoid resentment, misunderstanding, etc.  But there are a lot of people here who have done just that and are very happy with it.

Tl;dr:  Don't let your anxiety about what might happen in 10-20 years get in the way of your happiness and relationship now.  You can burn that bridge when you come to it.

*Ask me how I know.

**Note that introverts can sometimes both desperately need human connection and find it very hard to put themselves out there (a/k/a "what if they don't like me?").  I personally became a completely different person in the relative safety of a job, because I could put on "job face" and go talk with people without risking rejection of my true self.  So it may well be that his job helps him fill a pretty deep emotional need, and he is right to worry about how he would replace that if the job went away.

[simonsez]

It sounds like he is at least somewhat frugal and loves his job.  You're off to an excellent start!

If he is risk averse, why don't you talk about the long-term risk of not investing?  There are plenty of alternatives to sticking money in a checking account if someone doesn't want to be aggressive in index funds.

Do you split the household finances?  If so, what does he do with his extra money that he doesn't spend?  After years of you investing your extra money, it will only become more and more obvious to him that investing is the way to go and he will follow suit with his extra.

Does his job come with a pension of any sort?  One of my very best friends is dubious about all things invested on an individual level and actively sought out a job in which the bulk of the retirement package was a pension.  It works for him, there is a simple formula to calculate how much will be received and it is guaranteed to be there for him (unless the city goes broke, which is a low likelihood).

Does he plan to work until he dies?  If he does...good luck.  But if he wants to retire at a more common age due to some preconceived amount of money being available to live on, inevitably that will be possible due to investing in something.  Thus it would follow the more aggressive he is during key earning years, the more likely this is to happen.  Does a lower withdrawal rate than 4% make him more comfortable?  It doesn't take that much lower to see 100% success rate (3.5949%) or even 100% success PLUS 50% left over in the WORST scenario ever (3.05%).

Does he have to RE for you to be happy?  If he gets immense enjoyment from being engaged with his job, it sounds like if you talked him into retiring early coupled with the fact he is introverted, he could have a difficult transition time.  Why not let him work, crush the savings rate for several years, and even plan on him shooting for a bigger number (lower withdrawal %) in retirement to live on?  As time goes by, maybe he will realize he will have more money than what he will know what to do with if he doesn't pull the plug early or change some basic assumptions.

[terran]

The Shockingly Simple Math post is great for whacking people across the face with a totally new idea and showing that the thing we all assume (work to 65) isn't really how it has to be. But, honestly, I think it simplifies things a little too far. It's a little too hand wavy. If your husband, like me, is skeptical of hand wavy arguments, and especially if he is mathematically inclined, I would suggest you have him take a look at Early Retirement Now's blog. It's like MMM but with real math.

A couple of places to start:
Not so simple Math: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/11/01/shockingly-simple-complicated-random-math-behind-early-retirement/
Ultimate safe withdrawal rate series: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2016/12/07/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-1-intro/

[Noodle]

Normally I am the first person to tell someone talking about getting their SO onboard to make sure goals are aligned before discussing methods...but it's actually a little more complicated than that. FIRE = goals + methods, and the couples who get there most swiftly and harmoniously probably share both...but you can actually share one or the other and still make really good progress. (A lot of people who write in on this topic share neither, and then get frustrated because they are unsurprisingly getting nowhere). It sounds like you are still quite a way from retirement. Why not keep living your lives, saving aggressively, and discussing what you want as you go along? By the time you are ready to FIRE, maybe he won't be as interested in working. Maybe one of you will have a disability that affects your plans, or you will have caregiving responsibilities to work around. Maybe you will have a job or project or side hustle that you want to keep up. Who knows? Being FI will give you tools to do whatever you want when the occasion arises...

[ixtap]

When my SO and I first started talking about savings, we were saving for an amazing backyard pool. At some point, that morfed into a brand new sailboat + ten years expenses in taxable accounts (while still maxing tax advantaged). Once we did some research and learned more, the same time line allowed for an older boat and 25x current expenses. Although it won't affect the timeline at all since we already save more than we spend, we are even looking to cut 10% off our budget (20% if we can move the boat, but that is looking like a long shot).

[MoneyMouse]

Oh, wow, so many replies! Thanks, everyone. I'mma work through these from top to bottom.

fuzzymath
That's hilarious. Thank you for the laugh. :D
You're quite right - I hadn't thought of approaching it that way. Perhaps where the conversation should start - on saving and investing, and not necessarily on FIRE.

And we'll be heading to see a couple's counsellor this weekend and he's got an appointment booked with a counsellor for himself as well. Thank you, I appreciate it. :)

Bicycle_B
Experience is always valuable - thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Thank you for the reassurances, it does mean a lot. I feel a little terrified of doing "the wrong thing".

I've read that thread, yes, though I could stand to read it a few more times.
Thank you for the recommendation on that site - it looks like something that would definitely speak to him.

I think the bigger challenge for us right now is going to be being able to really sit down and dig into the meat of the issue. We've always agreed financially sort of on a surface level of saving more and spending less, but aside from knowing he's risk averse, I don't know much else about his financial view points.

Linda_Norway
That's true, I think that strategy could work quite well.

I'm of the opinion Mr. Mouse is a little short-sighted, and has trouble seeing past our current low-paying jobs. Perhaps just adopting the attitude of pursuing a FI life without needing to get there right away would help ease him into the process.

Laura33
Thanks, Laura. This means a lot and you make a lot of sense.

I'll definitely go read that thread again a few times.

I really appreciate your thought and advice. We have chatted a bit about what it might look like if I FIRE and he doesn't, with his concerns that it could lead to resentment or a power imbalance. I think that's something we'll have to explore more with our counsellor.

simonsez
Thanks for the advice, simonsez. You're right - that's a good approach to think of the risks of not investing. I'll have to see what he thinks about opening something like a simple Tangerine mutual fund account. I know he has an RRSP, but I don't know where he saves it.

The only thing we really split is our rent. I take care of insurance, he takes care of electricity and we alternate buying groceries if we're going together or buying food for the house and not individually for ourselves. We're pretty separate financially, which I think is a good thing at this point.

We both have excellent pensions through work, so that's good for us if we do decide to stay. Since we both started working at 25, we'd actually be able to retire by 55 given the system our pension plans use. And that's not counting Mustachian spending habits.

He's not even sure if he wants to work 'till he dies. He does want to retire, for sure, just doesn't know what he wants from his life.
I do like those numbers, too, though. Is there an article that goes over how you got to those numbers in more detail? I think if the both of us went through the math on that step by step it could help us both.

That's a good question, about him needing to be RE for me to be happy.
I don't think so, no. I'm very fine if he wants to continue to work - in all fairness, so will I, just not in a traditional job. I've found an app that connects dog walkers and dog owners seeking someone to pop in on their pup - I would do that for a full time job no problem. That's a great plan and something I should talk to him more about. I think his worry is less about if it'll make me happy - he's not sure he'd be happy. Which I can't really control, which sucks, but it's better to learn now than later.

terran
Oooh, I'll definitely check out Early Retirement Now. Thank you so much for the recommendation! I think that'll jive with him much more. I like MMM's style and find it easy to the do the math myself, but I think Mr. Mouse might need a more science-y like blog.

Noodle
Thank you for your comments. You're right - I think that is the better way to look at it right now.

It's a bit scary, because I've been viewing FIRE as a way to kind of escape some of my own mental demons - that's becoming clear to me now. And FIREing myself isn't gonna heal them - it might make 'em worse. Plus, I want to embark on that chapter of my life with a sense of earned adventure.

You're right, Noodle. Work hard now, keep working hard. Do the saving, live a frugal life and let FIRE come when it does.

ixtap
Wow, congrats on the big save!
I think a good gateway "savings drug" for us might be looking at building a big downpayment on a house. I think Mr. Mouse is much more a city mouse kinda guy than me, so he'd prefer a more pricey "dream house" sorta set up, but maybe his mind will change as we get closer to the day of.



Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate the support, ideas and different perspectives.
I've learned a lot, once again!

[Classical_Liberal]

You are early in the process, this will be easy!

What are his biggest dreams?  IOW, What are the things he would love to do if money/time/work was not in the way?

At least one of them would be possible or made better with FI.  This is what you focus on; no more, no less. 

Even if he doesn't believe in FI; you sell it as the dream coming true when you're "debt free", "have the house paid off", or "have old age retirement savings funded early in life"... Whatever the next natural step towards FU money is for him.  Once reached, you both can do "x" without reservations.

My situation as an example; SO is insanely into travel.  I have been focusing on how great it would be to take a sabbatical year to travel together.  The caveat, she knows she can't afford to do it with her student loan debt and car payment. Plus she needs to save $$ for that year off. 

My S.O. doesn't even know what FI is, yet she's aggressively making plans to pay down her BWM so she can sell it, purchase a cheaper car to make more aggressive payments to her student loans. She really wants that traveling sabbatical year and soon!  I can afford to do it anytime and she knows it. 

Once this behavior is more ingrained, I may step up the ante to "a life time of travel".  For now, shes making all the right moves towards FI.  Worst case, she cleans her financial house and we get to go on a world tour together.  Best case, in the process she slowly realizes(with some slight guidance) the would tour could go on forever.

[Retire-Canada]

Just a quick comment. You are 27 and he's your BF. You don't need perfectly synchronized financial plans. I would let him know you are keen on FIRE and that you plan to work at that goal as a priority. He doesn't have to agree to join you as long as he doesn't actively stop you. Save your money, invest it and keep talking to him about the topic without pressuring him. Maybe he comes around. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe you aren't with him when you FIRE. Whatever you do don't link your financial future with someone that doesn't see things the same way.

As an example my GF [been together 9yrs] will FIRE in ~9yrs and it's possible she'll hit FI and keep working. I will hit FIRE in ~2yrs and there is no way in hell I'll keep working. We keep separate finances, but share costs. I'd say we are 60-70% aligned financially and future goals. That's not perfect, but it can work fine. She's come around to the MMM/FIRE way of thinking a lot since I got started mostly by seeing me do my thing and hearing me chat about it. Not by me trying to get her to change.

[CindyBS]

A couple thoughts:

If he is your BF and your finances are separate  - where is this heading?  Are you going to get married?  Married with separate finances?  If you are not combining legally or financially, I'm not sure why it matters.  Just do your own thing, and if he follows, he follows.  Perhaps I am old fashioned, but IMO, if you are not serious enough to get married, I'm not sure if you are serious enough to make FIRE plans together matter.  You could devote a ton of energy to getting him on your side only to have the relationship end 6 months later. 

Second, I would stop using the words retirement, FIRE, etc.  This really helped with my multi-year conversion of my DH.  Retire(ment) was a trigger word to cue the anxiety and worried thoughts.  Saying things like "we saved X amount of money and our net worth went up by x% this year.  We are on track to have XXX money in 5 years (target FIRE date).  Won't that be awesome!"  After enough of those types of statements over several months/years, you can tack on the end - "then we can decide how much or if we want to work."  Having a lot of money is very appealing to anyone. 

Third, talk up activities you would do in retirement.  For example, we went to a large National Park in summer a few years ago.  It was so crowded.  I said "won't it be great when we are done working (avoiding the R word) and can come here a not-busy time and avoid all these crowds?"   Or our FIRE will coincide with our kids being grown, so I talk up trips and things we could do when the kids are grown.

 
Fourth, talk up things positive things you/he did.  "I'm so glad we got the used (cheaper) car last year instead of buying new.  Now that the stock market is taking off, the money we were able to put in investments is making us a lot of money!" 

[MoneyMouse]

Classical_Liberal
In all honesty, I don't think he knows what he'd do if he didn't need to work. It's something he's definitely trying to address through our couples' and his own individual therapy. That's probably a huge difference between us for right now, and hopefully one he can see doesn't have to be a deal breaker.

I'm hoping we can discover his passion - whatever that is - and that can be a way I can help him see that saving aggressively and putting away for the future is a way to get there quicker. Right now, it kinda seems like an insurmountable risk. Even if our finances are separate, he thinks it's not a good idea.

Here's hoping that through therapy we can figure ourselves out a little more, ha ha!

Sun Hat
That's a great point about the lifestyle. I'm still trying to figure out all the lifestyle stuff for myself - I hope with more time at home with the Mr, I'll have time to really explore this with him. I am definitely interested in it.

That's true, and if he wants to do that as a business or even just as a volunteer (though somehow he thinks volunteers are lesser than paid people, despite his own volunteerism), then I think he'd quite enjoy that.

I need to get in the habit of reading more. I'm definitely going to look for times when I can be doing that (instead of, say, whiling away hours on Imgur). There's a few books I need to read for sure to help me figure it out.

Retire-Canada
Hey, another Canuck! Yay~

That's true. Thanks. I do kind of wonder how Common Law in Canada will affect things, if we do split, but I don't think he's the type to try to claw anything over to his side. If he starts showing those tendencies, I'm outta there like a bat outta hell for sure.

Out of curiosity, how do you share costs with separate finances?
If Mr. Mouse and I marry, we plan to keep a fair amount separate (mostly on my insistence) but have a joint chequing account for things like rent, food, utilities, etc. Do you do something similar?

I think you're definitely right in that I have to pursue FI regardless of Mr. Mouse's interests.

CindyBS
Those are really good questions.
Right now, we're going through a rough patch. We're not sure if we'll stay together, but we're going to therapy - it's the first really long-term and serious relationship for the both of us, but our first session was encouraging.

I think you're right that at this point, it's best for me to prepare to FIRE with or without him. I'm committed to it for my own well-being, and I want it for myself. If he can't deal with me being retired early, then it wouldn't work out in the long run.

That's a good idea, too. I'm opening an account with a Canadian version of Betterment (WealthSimple) and am excited to see the growth happening with finally investing my money. In addition to not using the "retirement" word, I think I might have to make it talking about the positives in my own financial sphere - and see if that interests him at all.

Going along with your next point, I know for me a big draw in becoming FI is being able to do something I enjoy doing and that doesn't require so much will or presence of mind like my current work. Still working, but doing something like being a facility attendant at my local YMCA (I love the people who work there and workout there), or be a casual dog-walker. Things that will still earn me income, but it isn't about the job anymore at that point.

Thanks for your input and questions, Cindy.

[Retire-Canada]

Retire-Canada
Hey, another Canuck! Yay~

That's true. Thanks. I do kind of wonder how Common Law in Canada will affect things, if we do split, but I don't think he's the type to try to claw anything over to his side. If he starts showing those tendencies, I'm outta there like a bat outta hell for sure.

Out of curiosity, how do you share costs with separate finances?
If Mr. Mouse and I marry, we plan to keep a fair amount separate (mostly on my insistence) but have a joint chequing account for things like rent, food, utilities, etc. Do you do something similar?

I think you're definitely right in that I have to pursue FI regardless of Mr. Mouse's interests.

I had my GF sign a cohabitation agreement that spells out property rights [we each own our own stuff unless we buy it jointly]. In BC after 6 months of living together she would be entitled to 50% of my property if we split without an agreement in place.

For shared costs we each pay for whatever makes sense and then at the end of each month I tally receipts and whomever owes money transfers it to the other person. Since I do 90% of the grocery shopping my GF usually owes me money. I also own the house we live in and she pays me rent.

[surfhb]

Just keep saving and working towards FI.   You are only 27 and WILL be a different person in 10 years....believe me!    Maybe this guy wont be around?   Who knows?

My point is as you get older your priorities will change.  Children, husband, career change(s) , house (s)....so many variables to consider.