Author Topic: What is (was) Your Career?  (Read 48594 times)

grantmeaname

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2012, 12:01:09 PM »
Thanks for the tip; I definitely haven't written anything off yet.

Taylor

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2012, 12:07:33 PM »
That being said, it's hard to keep the 'comparison monster' in check and not compare my savings rate to those who make 3-4x what I do. Currently hovering at 40% and that's not bad for a 30k take-home salary :)

I think I really needed to hear/read that! And 40% at your salary is f-ing impressive if you ask me. Hell, I'm trying to rev my self up to 30% by age 30 (just over a year)... and I'll probably cheat and include the employer 401K contributions just to hit that number. My salary is similar so it's cool to see someone sort of like me doing so well. Very good inspiration.

Thanks! My number one issue/frustration with the MMM blog and community is that it seems so geared toward very high salaries (although it's usually framed as a 'regular' salary) and that's not most people's reality (especially those who choose to work with vulnerable people or serve their communities). Keep it up, 30% is a great goal!

Orvell

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2012, 12:18:14 PM »
That being said, it's hard to keep the 'comparison monster' in check and not compare my savings rate to those who make 3-4x what I do. Currently hovering at 40% and that's not bad for a 30k take-home salary :)

I think I really needed to hear/read that! And 40% at your salary is f-ing impressive if you ask me. Hell, I'm trying to rev my self up to 30% by age 30 (just over a year)... and I'll probably cheat and include the employer 401K contributions just to hit that number. My salary is similar so it's cool to see someone sort of like me doing so well. Very good inspiration.

Thanks! My number one issue/frustration with the MMM blog and community is that it seems so geared toward very high salaries (although it's usually framed as a 'regular' salary) and that's not most people's reality (especially those who choose to work with vulnerable people or serve their communities). Keep it up, 30% is a great goal!
This is super refreshing for me to hear too! I'm a customer service assistant for an iron foundry. Not the most perfect career for me, but at the moment it gives me time and energy to work on my art and illustration skills when the day is over. I hope to transition into freelancing. But for the moment, my after tax take home is just a hair above 26K and as much as I want a 75% savings rate... that just can't happen right now (or rather, I enjoy having at least some heat in winter.)
I usually manage to hit 50% savings, but I enjoy living in a low cost of living part of the states.
Awesome to hear from other people in similar situations!

Aloysius_Poutine

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2012, 12:21:36 PM »
^I'm in the same boat. My gross is 40k/year at this customer service job, but I live in a very expensive place so I need to seriously level up in order to even achieve retirement by 65.

Self-employed-swami

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2012, 12:31:20 PM »

Thanks! My number one issue/frustration with the MMM blog and community is that it seems so geared toward very high salaries (although it's usually framed as a 'regular' salary) and that's not most people's reality (especially those who choose to work with vulnerable people or serve their communities). Keep it up, 30% is a great goal!

I started out making 36,000/year out of university, so we didn't all land the huge-paying jobs the second we graduated :)  After 2 raises, I was at $42,000 and that's when I bought my house.

Melissa

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2012, 12:32:31 PM »
Husband is Director of IT at a large energy company (but degree is in mechanical and serospace engineering).  He used to like his job, but now hates the project he is currently working on.

I was a SAHM for over ten years before going to school and becoming a Physical Therapist Assistant.  I am just starting with a company doing PRN work so that I will still have flexibility to handle kids activities and the household.  I am also a personal trainer and do some occasional work there.  I enjoy both jobs and only had to get and Associates degree in Applied Science

freelancerNfulltimer

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2012, 12:35:09 PM »

Thanks! My number one issue/frustration with the MMM blog and community is that it seems so geared toward very high salaries (although it's usually framed as a 'regular' salary) and that's not most people's reality (especially those who choose to work with vulnerable people or serve their communities). Keep it up, 30% is a great goal!

I started out making 36,000/year out of university, so we didn't all land the huge-paying jobs the second we graduated :)  After 2 raises, I was at $42,000 and that's when I bought my house.

I made $17,000  the first year out of college and really hustled to build my freelance business. This is the first year I feel truly well compensated. (I'm 6 years out of college.)

tooqk4u22

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2012, 12:39:16 PM »
Warning:  Unsolicited Advice --- You may find the consulting side of corporate finance to be more satisfying than either accounting or i-banking, given your liking for analytical work and research.  Those of us in the field tend to think of investment bankers as primarily sales guys, and accounting as too process driven to be interesting. 

Good point - accounting skills are transferable and highly valuable, but the reality is that accountants put the data together and finance people break it down and make it usable - way more fun and intelectually satisfying.

kudy

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2012, 12:44:30 PM »
Web development and search marketing.

grantmeaname

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2012, 02:25:10 PM »
Good point - accounting skills are transferable and highly valuable, but the reality is that accountants put the data together and finance people break it down and make it usable - way more fun and intelectually satisfying.
I'm at a school with a top-10 accounting program and an undistinguished and unchallenging finance program, as far as I can tell. I figured it would be better to teach myself finance if that's the way I end up going (and it looks like it may be).

Sparky

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2012, 04:20:50 PM »
Kinda not shocked that just about everyone has a degree of some sort and works more in an office type situation.....

I'm a Electrician in the Oil and Gas industry. Awesome industry to be in; your consistently reinventing your 'job title', you'll never go a day where you haven't learned something new, huge responsibilities, and the money is fantastic (often $150k plus a year). Bad side is it's extremely difficult to maintain a relationship, standing in -40C weather for 12 hours a day and your unemployed often as your employed.

I can't stand being in an office where I have to wear a tie, having clean, pressed clothing or have to watch what I say. Nor could I handle doing 4 to 8 years of Uni life, I hate writing papers/homework beyond belief and find most of students to be incredibly immature. The GF enjoys it though as a Masters student now and likely a PHD student next year....

Worsted Skeins

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2012, 05:05:13 PM »
Both my husband and I have master's degrees in Mathematics.  I no longer work for a paycheck but, when I did, I earned considerably less as a community college instructor or university adjunct than what he earns in his computer engineering work.

Both of us were TAs in grad school.  We lived in poverty but managed to escape student loan debt.  Students in other disciplines may not be as fortunate to find assistantships as those in Math are.

needmyfi

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2012, 06:09:41 PM »
Mechanical engineer until 9 years ago. I now work part time in horticulture and part time in conservation (same organization) and have health insurance through them.   Dh and I take home/net only 50k (with rental income) , but spend only 40k and have no debt.

burly

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2012, 06:23:50 PM »
Private Banker at a Wealth Management firm. Many of my clients are NOT mustachians.

bo_knows

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2012, 06:27:37 PM »
Private Banker at a Wealth Management firm. Many of my clients are NOT mustachians.

I work as a contractor to the federal government. Now they aren't exactly mustachian either  ;)

Soccermom2b

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2012, 09:59:11 PM »
Private Banker at a Wealth Management firm. Many of my clients are NOT mustachians.

I work as a contractor to the federal government. Now they aren't exactly mustachian either  ;)

procurement fraud attorney for the fed gov't.  Got something you need to get off your chest?

$_gone_amok

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2012, 11:30:00 PM »
Software engineer at a very large software services company. Looking forward to start my own software development shop some day.

Dr Dave

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2012, 11:36:29 PM »
Doctor of Veterinary Medicine. Would not recommend this career choice to anyone. I lucked out and had a scholarship all through vet school so graduated with zero debt, which is about the only good thing I can say about that.

happy

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2012, 03:44:27 AM »
Doctor of Human Medicine. "High stress, ridiculous hours, not worth the money, IMHO".

mustachecat

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2012, 06:09:35 AM »
Another nonprofit admin. Easing out of fundraising and hanging out in finance for now. High five, fellow nonprofiteers!

bo_knows

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2012, 06:19:44 AM »
Private Banker at a Wealth Management firm. Many of my clients are NOT mustachians.

I work as a contractor to the federal government. Now they aren't exactly mustachian either  ;)

procurement fraud attorney for the fed gov't.  Got something you need to get off your chest?

Haha, nice.  No, I just wonder about the efficiency of these huge government contracts sometimes.  Luckily, the contract that I'm on was just re-bid and a big consolidation is in the works.

Plus, I'm just a peon and never see actual $ numbers... what do I know? :)

mustache brony

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2012, 07:15:37 AM »
2 Years postgraduate (Masters in Chemistry), and I still work as a Chemist in the federal government. 

Self-employed-swami

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2012, 07:33:50 AM »
2 Years postgraduate (Masters in Chemistry), and I still work as a Chemist in the federal government.

Any breaking bad-style chemistry on the side?  I imagine you'd build your 'stache quickly that way ;)

Dumb blonde

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2012, 07:40:58 AM »
Worked a boring job for the first two years after my graduation. Got married, had 3 babies and stayed at home for 5 years. Started my own internet business out of boredom. Made money. Husband joined business. Made more money. Gradually competition showed up and made less money. And less. Lost interest. Started working freelance. Husband started a new business.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:59:12 AM by Dumb blonde »

Bank

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2012, 09:27:27 AM »
Good point - accounting skills are transferable and highly valuable, but the reality is that accountants put the data together and finance people break it down and make it usable - way more fun and intelectually satisfying.
I'm at a school with a top-10 accounting program and an undistinguished and unchallenging finance program, as far as I can tell. I figured it would be better to teach myself finance if that's the way I end up going (and it looks like it may be).

That sounds like a good idea.  I have never worked for an accounting firm or done audit in my life, but I use what I learned in accounting classes and studying for the CPA exam every day.  IMHO, finance concepts aren't that hard.  The challenging part is applying them to real world situations, which no class will teach you no matter how many HBS cases they force you to slog through.

tooqk4u22

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2012, 10:31:55 AM »
To clarify my comment - I think if you had to choose I would get a degree in accounting and the CPA BUT would work in finance.  An accounting degree is transferable to finance but a finance degree isn't as transferable the other way.

Cary

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2012, 10:54:57 AM »
I'm an architect. Went back to get my Master of Architecture when I was 31. I had worked as a bicycle mechanic and environmental planner previously. Lots of school and hard work as an architectural intern, then licensed by 39 same year I was laid off from a good firm when recession hit the industry hard in 2009. Started my solo firm within a year and the business is grossing a modest $55K/year despite the downturn. This career has its rewards, but in a nutshell it's a ton of school and job experience to do an often demanding, challenging and frequently thankless job. I love the autonomy of self employment, being creative, solving problems, helping owners and getting things built. We're in the Seattle area, so cost of living is pretty high. My wife is a public school teacher and she's our anchor with 20+ years of experience. I've been lurking here since the inception of MMM's blog. We aren't totally Mustachian but are learning a lot about how to rapidly move in the direction. Reading MMM and the forums, along with GRS and many personal finance books has changed my financial paradigm and radically altered our savings goals. Much appreciate the MMM community.

igthebold

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2012, 11:14:13 AM »
Worked a boring job for the first two years after my graduation. Got married, had 3 babies and stayed at home for 5 years. Started my own internet business out of boredom. Made money. Husband joined business. Made more money. Gradually competition showed up and made less money. And less. Lost interest. Started working freelance in web content management. Husband started a new business with another companion.

Ah, the complex answers to "so.. what do you do?" of the entrepreneur. :)

mustache brony

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2012, 11:34:12 AM »
2 Years postgraduate (Masters in Chemistry), and I still work as a Chemist in the federal government.

Any breaking bad-style chemistry on the side?  I imagine you'd build your 'stache quickly that way ;)

Nah, I did physical and analytical chemistry (meaning I analyzed the characteristics of things, as opposed to making new things). Now Iím out of the wet chemistry business and just a desk jockey. 

ivyhedge

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2012, 11:37:02 AM »
Astrophysics --> IR --> finance --> ... [7yrs] ... --> hedge fund manager.

bo_knows

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2012, 11:39:45 AM »
Astrophysics --> IR --> finance --> ... [7yrs] ... --> hedge fund manager.

This is the most interesting path to me.  Cool story.

ivyhedge

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2012, 11:58:58 AM »
Astrophysics --> IR --> finance --> ... [7yrs] ... --> hedge fund manager.

This is the most interesting path to me.  Cool story.

Thanks, bo! And a good portion of my time was spent in your neck of the woods!

artimus

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »
Ages: 25 year old married couple.  One child (3 yr old)

Jobs/Income: Professional Poker Player, wife is a school teacher.  Income fluctuates month-to-month, sometimes year-to-year because of the high variance inherent in short-term investments (think each hand of poker = investment).  When online poker was available it was nicer, commute was 0, work from home...Now I have to commute to the casino.  Hourly ~$80, work 30-40 hours per week depending how I feel; wife's income is 36k starting salary in her first year teaching.  Fingers crossed for online poker returning soon...Considering moving to a country with low expenses to play online poker again.  Good thread, interesting jobs from a lot of people.

Mrs MM

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2012, 12:34:58 PM »
MMM was a software engineer and went to school specifically for that. 

I went into Management Information Systems (MIS), which is a bachelor of commerce with a side of computer science.  I ended up getting work as a software developer, but later moved more in the project management area.

rtrnow

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2012, 01:08:10 PM »
I'm a research scientist working in telecommunications for almost nine years now. I was able to get a job with a university right out of undergrad. They payed for my master's degree and govt benefits are great. I'm 34 now and hope to retire before 38.


palvar

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2012, 01:40:37 PM »
I've been developing wind farms for about 8 years, but my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering.

Self-employed-swami

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2012, 01:52:20 PM »
I've been developing wind farms for about 8 years, but my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering.

Might be the most mustachian job out there.  Congrats!

JohnGalt

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2012, 02:00:14 PM »
Ages: 25 year old married couple.  One child (3 yr old)

Jobs/Income: Professional Poker Player, wife is a school teacher.  Income fluctuates month-to-month, sometimes year-to-year because of the high variance inherent in short-term investments (think each hand of poker = investment).  When online poker was available it was nicer, commute was 0, work from home...Now I have to commute to the casino.  Hourly ~$80, work 30-40 hours per week depending how I feel; wife's income is 36k starting salary in her first year teaching.  Fingers crossed for online poker returning soon...Considering moving to a country with low expenses to play online poker again.  Good thread, interesting jobs from a lot of people.

$80/hr playing live poker?  What limit are you playing?  A few years ago when I was playing 15-20 hours / week (mostly 1/3 with some 2/5 tossed in occasionally at underground games) I averaged something like $25/hr for a 6 month period and, since that was slightly more than I made at my day job at the time, was considering taking a shot.  Had I been anywhere close to $80/hr I would have definitely gone for it. Instead I took a new position for more money and used my bankroll as a downpayment on a house - but I still wonder about what could have been from time to time.


arebelspy

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2012, 02:41:41 PM »
$80/hr playing live poker?  What limit are you playing?  A few years ago when I was playing 15-20 hours / week (mostly 1/3 with some 2/5 tossed in occasionally at underground games) I averaged something like $25/hr for a 6 month period and, since that was slightly more than I made at my day job at the time, was considering taking a shot.  Had I been anywhere close to $80/hr I would have definitely gone for it. Instead I took a new position for more money and used my bankroll as a downpayment on a house - but I still wonder about what could have been from time to time.

His blog is at http://www.thewh00sel.liquidpoker.net/ - I've been reading (through RSS feed) since he posted the link in April.  It gives more details about his income (and expenses, but the latter is more interesting to those of us poker / former poker players).
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Masha

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2012, 02:49:20 PM »
Museum curator. Freelance right now.  I went to undergrad for costume design/history and auto mechanics, and have a graduate degree in antiques. Seriously. I am pretty resourceful, and always have several projects going in different areas, none of which (thankfully) involve french fries.  My DH is also an (employed!) curator, and he makes reproduction uniforms on the side and does movie work sometimes too.

We have several income streams because of our many skills with fabric, leather, etc, but I haven't figured out a way to make them passive in any way. LOL. This shit doesn't sew itself.

My work is really interesting, doesn't pay much, and sometimes feels in conflict with our FI goals, but it is what I do, and our mustaches are growing all the time...I'm still giddy over opening my Vanguard account this morning!

Dumb blonde

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2012, 02:17:10 AM »
Worked a boring job for the first two years after my graduation. Got married, had 3 babies and stayed at home for 5 years. Started my own internet business out of boredom. Made money. Husband joined business. Made more money. Gradually competition showed up and made less money. And less. Lost interest. Started working freelance in web content management. Husband started a new business with another companion.

Ah, the complex answers to "so.. what do you do?" of the entrepreneur. :)

Haha, I guess so. :-)


« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 09:56:21 AM by Dumb blonde »

vieja

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2012, 08:08:10 AM »
Dh and I own a restaurant in a very small town.  Our income is limited.  It 12-18 months the place will be paid off and our income will double.

We saved the down payment on the place by waiting tables and cooking in restaurants.  Frugality and determination are the only reasons we have anything.  Dh has a 6th grade education and I spent 5 years wandering through various colleges.  I never managed to earn a degree but thankfully didn't accumulate any student loans either.

Its nice to see that there are other low income earners here.  I hesitate to share much because I feel a bit out of my league.

ivyhedge

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2012, 08:45:41 AM »
Dh and I own a restaurant in a very small town.  Our income is limited.  It 12-18 months the place will be paid off and our income will double.

We saved the down payment on the place by waiting tables and cooking in restaurants.  Frugality and determination are the only reasons we have anything.  Dh has a 6th grade education and I spent 5 years wandering through various colleges.  I never managed to earn a degree but thankfully didn't accumulate any student loans either.

Its nice to see that there are other low income earners here.  I hesitate to share much because I feel a bit out of my league.

Vieja,

There's absolutely no reason you should question whether to post here or not. Some folks have truly shaped their lives into precisely what they want despite a gloomy and unresolved start while the elements against them seemed insurmountable. We wish you well!

Guardian

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2012, 08:57:59 AM »
I've been developing wind farms for about 8 years, but my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering.

Might be the most mustachian job out there.  Congrats!

In my opinion, you wouldn't think it was Mustachian if you'd seen the Documentaries I've seen... I guess Wind Turbines (the 300-400ft ones) are horrid, and it's all part of schemes...

palvar

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2012, 08:59:13 AM »
Dh and I own a restaurant in a very small town.  Our income is limited.  It 12-18 months the place will be paid off and our income will double.

We saved the down payment on the place by waiting tables and cooking in restaurants.  Frugality and determination are the only reasons we have anything.  Dh has a 6th grade education and I spent 5 years wandering through various colleges.  I never managed to earn a degree but thankfully didn't accumulate any student loans either.

Its nice to see that there are other low income earners here.  I hesitate to share much because I feel a bit out of my league.

Owning your own business is very impressive - especially in such a competitive industry!  I'd love to own my own business at some point in my life.

Self-employed-swami

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2012, 09:23:40 AM »
I've been developing wind farms for about 8 years, but my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering.

Might be the most mustachian job out there.  Congrats!

In my opinion, you wouldn't think it was Mustachian if you'd seen the Documentaries I've seen... I guess Wind Turbines (the 300-400ft ones) are horrid, and it's all part of schemes...

Everyone has their propaganda I guess.  *shrug*

Snow White

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2012, 09:34:36 AM »
I am a Registered Nurse with a BS in Nursing and a BA in psychology.   I love nursing and feel fortunate that I can always get a job.  I work in State government and have a decent salary with great benefits.  A big part of FI for me was marrying a frugal but high earning professional.  We have lived way below our income for years and that is another important part of the equation!

artimus

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2012, 09:45:18 AM »
Ages: 25 year old married couple.  One child (3 yr old)

Jobs/Income: Professional Poker Player, wife is a school teacher.  Income fluctuates month-to-month, sometimes year-to-year because of the high variance inherent in short-term investments (think each hand of poker = investment).  When online poker was available it was nicer, commute was 0, work from home...Now I have to commute to the casino.  Hourly ~$80, work 30-40 hours per week depending how I feel; wife's income is 36k starting salary in her first year teaching.  Fingers crossed for online poker returning soon...Considering moving to a country with low expenses to play online poker again.  Good thread, interesting jobs from a lot of people.

$80/hr playing live poker?  What limit are you playing?  A few years ago when I was playing 15-20 hours / week (mostly 1/3 with some 2/5 tossed in occasionally at underground games) I averaged something like $25/hr for a 6 month period and, since that was slightly more than I made at my day job at the time, was considering taking a shot.  Had I been anywhere close to $80/hr I would have definitely gone for it. Instead I took a new position for more money and used my bankroll as a downpayment on a house - but I still wonder about what could have been from time to time.
I play 5/10nlhe, and a little 2/5 if the game is awful/not going. 

frugal rph

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #98 on: October 18, 2012, 11:21:01 AM »
I'm a retail pharmacist currently working part-time with full-time benefits.  It is financially rewarding but rather boring and really more of a customer service job than an intellectually stimulating one.  When I first started, there was a large shortage of pharmacists, but now the field is saturated.

Guardian

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Re: What is (was) Your Career?
« Reply #99 on: October 18, 2012, 11:48:05 AM »
I've been developing wind farms for about 8 years, but my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering.

Might be the most mustachian job out there.  Congrats!

In my opinion, you wouldn't think it was Mustachian if you'd seen the Documentaries I've seen... I guess Wind Turbines (the 300-400ft ones) are horrid, and it's all part of schemes...

Everyone has their propaganda I guess.  *shrug*

I agree, here's what I was talking about http://movies.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/movies/windfall-a-documentary-on-wind-turbines-by-laura-israel.html?_r=0