Author Topic: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?  (Read 24197 times)

fpjeepy

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2020, 02:31:19 PM »
society should have more laws and rules, not less
Big disagree on that one.

Watchmaker

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2020, 03:13:39 PM »
More people should have kids, and people with kids should have more kids.

Isn't this a quite widely held view?

I would say "Less people should have kids" is a much more controversial position.

Ichabod

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2020, 04:04:25 PM »
More people should have kids, and people with kids should have more kids.

Isn't this a quite widely held view?

I would say "Less people should have kids" is a much more controversial position.
I assume most people are satisfied with current fertility rates. Survey data does show that women's actual fertility is below desired fertility, but that doesn't necessarily reflect attitudes towards other people's fertility.

I'd say natalism is a minority view in this forum (MMM has a blogpost advocating only children) and a minority view on the internet and among my social class.

If I wanted to phrase it less popularly, I could say demographic collapse is a bigger threat to social democracy than climate change.

Metalcat

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2020, 04:37:37 PM »
More people should have kids, and people with kids should have more kids.

Isn't this a quite widely held view?

I would say "Less people should have kids" is a much more controversial position.
I assume most people are satisfied with current fertility rates. Survey data does show that women's actual fertility is below desired fertility, but that doesn't necessarily reflect attitudes towards other people's fertility.

I'd say natalism is a minority view in this forum (MMM has a blogpost advocating only children) and a minority view on the internet and among my social class.

If I wanted to phrase it less popularly, I could say demographic collapse is a bigger threat to social democracy than climate change.

Wait, why exactly do you want everyone to have more children???

ysette9

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2020, 05:01:49 PM »
I certainly stand out in the US with my feeling that there is almost no reason for anyone civilian to have a gun in his or her personal possession.

MudPuppy

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2020, 06:07:14 PM »
Pronatalism is still the prevailing wind, both on here (less stridently) and on the Internet in general, never ye fear.



Also I choose to mow the tenth of an acre around my home because mice, snakes, rats, etc.

lisabobisa

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2020, 06:11:56 AM »
For those who don't like grass, what do you plant instead?  I have a tiny postage stamp backyard with a giant tree (which I LOVE) but most of my grass died due to lack of sun and my dog peeing on it.  Not sure what to replace it with....

Edited to replace "Lack of shade" with "Lack of sun" That makes a difference in plants lol
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 07:21:30 AM by lisabobisa »

Metalcat

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2020, 06:23:38 AM »
For those who don't like grass, what do you plant instead?  I have a tiny postage stamp backyard with a giant tree (which I LOVE) but most of my grass died due to lack of shade and my dog peeing on it.  Not sure what to replace it with....

My old lawn was mostly clover.

ctuser1

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #108 on: December 10, 2020, 06:43:26 AM »
There is no actual point to life.

Agree.

How could there be if there is no  master planner?

The "point" is an invention that varies according to individuals, cultures, religions, etc.

What if I declared a "point" to my own life? My controversial truth is that I'm as qualified to be a meaning-maker as any guru or imaginary deity.

What I meant is that there is no exogenous, preordained point to life.

I  agree with you that through the power of their agency individuals have  freedom  to choose, eventually arriving at: "The point of my life is ______ ."

>> "The point of my life is ______
42

More seriously, I read, translated in the second order from an old Buddhist text, that the point of life is "to learn to ask the right questions". That resonates with me.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 06:47:23 AM by ctuser1 »

red_pill

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #109 on: December 10, 2020, 07:25:28 AM »
For those who don't like grass, what do you plant instead?  I have a tiny postage stamp backyard with a giant tree (which I LOVE) but most of my grass died due to lack of shade and my dog peeing on it.  Not sure what to replace it with....

I have a city sized back yard and have a lot of flowering bushes in it to attract bees and butterflies, but also some mid sized trees and a few larger ones.  Mulch is spread over the ground, but we never rake up all the dead leaves

GuitarStv

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #110 on: December 10, 2020, 07:36:22 AM »
For those who don't like grass, what do you plant instead?  I have a tiny postage stamp backyard with a giant tree (which I LOVE) but most of my grass died due to lack of shade and my dog peeing on it.  Not sure what to replace it with....

Depends on the amount of light your tree puts down (and sometimes depends on the type of tree . . . walnut for example has a habit of poisoning the ground near where it grows for most plants).  Many ferns will grow nicely in lower light conditions, if it's wet and doesn't get disturbed too much you could probably encourage some moss to grow.  There's always Hostas (they're hardy enough to grow in just about any condition, high light/low light, drought/overwatering).  Maybe check out periwinkle or lily of the valley (be careful if you've got pets with lily of the valley as it's very toxic).

vand

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #111 on: December 10, 2020, 07:41:08 AM »
Loud cars should be illegal.

I'm not sure if it's important, tbh, but my feelings on the subject are strong.

Interesting one, this. I'm a lassez faire market proponent, but I kinda agree with you on this one.

It's strange with all the clamour about the Green movement how noise pollution has kinda escaped the wrap.

On a physical level it can be argued that emitters of loud noise are effectively disturbing the air molecules in my personal space, so violates the non-aggression principle.

Of course a lot of things make a lot of noise and it's not practical to completely ban everything that generates noise, but IMO there is a strong case for a noise tax on much machinery.

GuitarStv

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2020, 07:49:18 AM »
Loud cars should be illegal.

I'm not sure if it's important, tbh, but my feelings on the subject are strong.

Interesting one, this. I'm a lassez faire market proponent, but I kinda agree with you on this one.

It's strange with all the clamour about the Green movement how noise pollution has kinda escaped the wrap.

On a physical level it can be argued that emitters of loud noise are effectively disturbing the air molecules in my personal space, so violates the non-aggression principle.

Of course a lot of things make a lot of noise and it's not practical to completely ban everything that generates noise, but IMO there is a strong case for a noise tax on much machinery.

I'd love to see this on motorcycles . . . which are on average significantly louder than cars in my experience.

iris lily

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2020, 08:27:32 AM »
I like Roundup and use it when I need to use it, where I need to use it.

iris lily

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #114 on: December 10, 2020, 08:32:20 AM »
For those who don't like grass, what do you plant instead?  I have a tiny postage stamp backyard with a giant tree (which I LOVE) but most of my grass died due to lack of shade and my dog peeing on it.  Not sure what to replace it with....
Depends on your climate.

There any number of ground covers that will grow  under shade, but the real problem with those kind of things that they don’t hold up to heavy foot traffic or heavy dog use. If you have a small to medium size dog who just trots around a little bit now and then it might hold up, but if your big dog is constantly peeing and specially if it’s female urine, that will kill about anything green.

I live in an urban core where some yards are tiny. My neighbors down the street with tiny yards put in fake green lawn for their size medium size dogs.While I personally I hate the idea of that, it doesn’t look all that bad.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 11:10:14 AM by iris lily »

Metalcat

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2020, 09:05:41 AM »
For those who don't like grass, what do you plant instead?  I have a tiny postage stamp backyard with a giant tree (which I LOVE) but most of my grass died due to lack of shade and my dog peeing on it.  Not sure what to replace it with....
Depends on your climate.

There any number of ground covers that will grow  under shade, but the real problem with those kind of things that they don’t hold up to heavy foot traffic or heavy dog use. If you have a small to medium size dog who just trots around a little bit now and then it might hold up, but if your big dog is constantly peeing and specially if it’s female utine, that will kill about anything green.

That would smell so, so bad.

I live in an urban core where some yards are tiny. My neighbors down the street with tiny yards put in fake green lawn for their size medium size dogs.While I personally I hate the idea of that, it doesn’t look all that bad.

wenchsenior

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #116 on: December 10, 2020, 11:42:46 AM »

Grass lawns are ugly and are probably one of the more damaging impacts that humans have had on the earth.  And people with fake grass are stupid.


I have a lawn . . . and it's green which is nice.  But the percentage of actual grass in it?  When you discount the dandelions, chives and green onions boldly escaping from the garden to freedom, thyme, clover, crab-grass, moss, etc. . . . I'd be surprised if it's more than 60% actual grass.  :P

You're halfway there!  Now, rip it up (or smother it) and plant something worthwhile in the space and you will be amazed at the wildlife that it will attract.

The main reason that I mow it is I'm not at all a fan of the wildlife it attracts.  We have a lot of raccoons, foxes, rabbits, feral cats, and squirrels . . . which on their own aren't usually a problem.  But I found two ticks on my son last year after he was playing in our back yard.  Not a fan.

Encouraging wildlife near your home sounds like something that a person who hasn't lived around much wildlife would call for.  :P

And this is why our planet is dying...because we feel like wildlife is a nuisance.

Guessing you don't have any personal experience removing ticks from humans?

I grew up in Northern WI, so yes.  Seriously, not worth getting that excited over.

Agreed. Coincidentally, I also grew up in Northern WI and have plucked many a tick from humans, cats, and dogs. Just part of the game when living with nature.

I have a neighbor complaining at me to remove a large juniper bush from my backyard because of the critters it attracts. Um. No. I want the wildlife here more than I want the neighbor.

I want wildlife more than I want ANY neighbor ever.  Unfortunately, I'm getting too old to live rough in a tent (getting older sucks), and there is no suitable land around here to build out the boondocks. Maybe if we move to a different state someday.  I regularly drool over real estate listings in Portal AZ, for example (population ~800).  But then my hypothetical ideal was always a small cottage on about 100 acres of diverse vegetation/land-cover types with a magical barrier impenetrable to humans and human created sounds without my express permission LOL.


Tass

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #117 on: December 10, 2020, 12:08:17 PM »
Loud cars should be illegal.

I'm not sure if it's important, tbh, but my feelings on the subject are strong.

Interesting one, this. I'm a lassez faire market proponent, but I kinda agree with you on this one.

It's strange with all the clamour about the Green movement how noise pollution has kinda escaped the wrap.

On a physical level it can be argued that emitters of loud noise are effectively disturbing the air molecules in my personal space, so violates the non-aggression principle.

Of course a lot of things make a lot of noise and it's not practical to completely ban everything that generates noise, but IMO there is a strong case for a noise tax on much machinery.

I'd love to see this on motorcycles . . . which are on average significantly louder than cars in my experience.

I would be willing to say motorcycles can't be made louder *on purpose* but otherwise allow them... Perhaps during daylight hours only... Just because they are so much more gas efficient. Motorcycles will always be louder than cars [until electric??] but most are much louder than necessary.

Loud cars truly have no purpose and can be heard by thousands of people within minutes or seconds. I am certain I have had my hearing damaged by loud cars passing me while biking. It is both a health hazard and a public nuisance.

I suppose to be specific I only want them to be illegal to drive in residential areas!

ysette9

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #118 on: December 10, 2020, 02:15:14 PM »
Loud cars should be illegal.

I'm not sure if it's important, tbh, but my feelings on the subject are strong.

Interesting one, this. I'm a lassez faire market proponent, but I kinda agree with you on this one.

It's strange with all the clamour about the Green movement how noise pollution has kinda escaped the wrap.

On a physical level it can be argued that emitters of loud noise are effectively disturbing the air molecules in my personal space, so violates the non-aggression principle.

Of course a lot of things make a lot of noise and it's not practical to completely ban everything that generates noise, but IMO there is a strong case for a noise tax on much machinery.

I'd love to see this on motorcycles . . . which are on average significantly louder than cars in my experience.
As with many environmentalist issues, I like to think that this one is merely accounting for externalities of our behavior and properly taking responsibility for them. Maybe you can be laissez faire with drilling for fossil fuels and burning them, but it isn’t fair to escape the repercussions of those actions and foist them upon others, which is how the world has been running for the past 200 years or so.

It is like letting your dog poop outside at the park and then not expecting to have to pick it up. For so long society had let big oil & gas (and all of us, really) get away with leaving dog poop on the sidewalk. Then the environmentalist come along and start making noise about picking up dog poop and that comes across as radical initially, but it is really just being a polite adult.

I hate noise and feel like society is louder and louder. Back when I saw movies occasionally in the theater I had to bring earplugs. Our neighbor has a loud car that he pulls out of the garage and lets idle for unknown reasons. His timing is almost always at a) nap time or b) bed time for little people. It irritates me that he is so causally ignorant of the irritation he is causing a good number of neighbors for no seeming benefit.

ysette9

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #119 on: December 10, 2020, 02:18:34 PM »
Loud cars should be illegal.

I'm not sure if it's important, tbh, but my feelings on the subject are strong.

Interesting one, this. I'm a lassez faire market proponent, but I kinda agree with you on this one.

It's strange with all the clamour about the Green movement how noise pollution has kinda escaped the wrap.

On a physical level it can be argued that emitters of loud noise are effectively disturbing the air molecules in my personal space, so violates the non-aggression principle.

Of course a lot of things make a lot of noise and it's not practical to completely ban everything that generates noise, but IMO there is a strong case for a noise tax on much machinery.

I'd love to see this on motorcycles . . . which are on average significantly louder than cars in my experience.

I would be willing to say motorcycles can't be made louder *on purpose* but otherwise allow them... Perhaps during daylight hours only... Just because they are so much more gas efficient. Motorcycles will always be louder than cars [until electric??] but most are much louder than necessary.

Loud cars truly have no purpose and can be heard by thousands of people within minutes or seconds. I am certain I have had my hearing damaged by loud cars passing me while biking. It is both a health hazard and a public nuisance.

I suppose to be specific I only want them to be illegal to drive in residential areas!
I think we can agree that there is quite a range of loudness for motorcycles. There is a Japanese motorcycle that makes noise, yes. Then there are the fat American ones driven by aging long-haired rebels that purposefully break OSHA standards for a healthy environment. If we were to cut back that noise to mere mortal motorcycle levels we could save everyone some hearing loss.

Ichabod

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #120 on: December 10, 2020, 02:36:12 PM »
Wait, why exactly do you want everyone to have more children???
The higher/better worker-to-non-worker ratio a society has the cheaper and more politically feasible it is to have a generous safety net. The economy in general will improve with more people. I have philosophical reasons as well, but the economic reasons seem more concrete and obvious to me.

Pronatalism is still the prevailing wind, both on here (less stridently) and on the Internet in general, never ye fear.
Regardless of public sentiment, natalists should be concerned as fertility rates are below replacement rates across the developed world, and the fertility rate is falling globally.

As to whether natalism is actually unpopular, I think if you polled people about babies generally, people would be pro-baby. If you told childless people they should have kids or if you told people who consider their families complete to have more kids, that would be quite unpopular.

I am still skeptical how popular natalism would be here or "online". But I'm willingly to concede that and reframe my unpopular truth as demographic collapse being a bigger threat than climate change.

freedomfightergal

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #121 on: December 10, 2020, 05:28:33 PM »

Grass lawns are ugly and are probably one of the more damaging impacts that humans have had on the earth.  And people with fake grass are stupid.

Grass is so dumb


MY PEOPLE!

So true!!  Imagine if everyone had some kind of fruit/nut tree and other edible plants, how no one would need to go hungry.  All that money spent on boring lawn drives me crazy.   I've been planting as much as possible in my back garden that is edible and it really is satisfying to go out and come back with a bowl of food whenever I need to.  (Today I ate fresh spinach - nothing needed to be added it tasted great straight off the plant, broccoli leaves, cabbage, & peppers - in addition to some store bought stuff).The front is HOA controlled & I regret buying in an HOA now. 

phildonnia

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #122 on: December 10, 2020, 05:50:59 PM »

2. In many cases, if it saves just one life, then it's not worth it.

The fuck? How can you determine if something is worth it without knowing what "it" costs? What if that life saving thing is pretty easy to do? A dentist friend saved a patient's life by detecting an aggressive oral cancer. She doesn't save a lot of lives as a dentist, but she saved "just one life" in the normal practice of her job. How on earth would that not be worth it?

3. McDonald's McCoffee is just fine.

I thought most people agreed on this. Isn't it well known that McDonalds coffee is one of the better chain drip coffees out there? Especially for the price?

4. If you have a lot of money, it means that you have given more value than you've taken.

Or inherited wealth and/or station in life due to nepotism. Also, some very wealthy people have committed unfathomable atrocities, is that really a net gain?
I'm pretty sure the world would be better off without Teodorin Fuckin' Obiang


7. There will always be problems, and those problems will always have solutions.

Ever had an untreatable illness? I mean, I suppose death is a pretty effective solution to terminal cancer...
There's a difference between "a solution" and a desirable solution, sometimes all options really are awful.

As requested... very few people agree with me.

GuitarStv

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #123 on: December 10, 2020, 06:22:06 PM »

Grass lawns are ugly and are probably one of the more damaging impacts that humans have had on the earth.  And people with fake grass are stupid.

Grass is so dumb


MY PEOPLE!

So true!!  Imagine if everyone had some kind of fruit/nut tree and other edible plants, how no one would need to go hungry.  All that money spent on boring lawn drives me crazy.   I've been planting as much as possible in my back garden that is edible and it really is satisfying to go out and come back with a bowl of food whenever I need to.  (Today I ate fresh spinach - nothing needed to be added it tasted great straight off the plant, broccoli leaves, cabbage, & peppers - in addition to some store bought stuff).The front is HOA controlled & I regret buying in an HOA now.

Fruit trees don't usually do well with lots of shrubbery/tall grasses growing around them because these plants transfer bugs and disease to the fruit.  This is why orchards tend to have well maintained, short lawns around their fruit trees typically.  It's weird to be anti-grass and pro-fruit tree at the same time.

:P

RetiredAt63

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2020, 07:57:25 AM »
Lawns - what else is there to plant over your leach field?  You don't want anything with deep roots, so no trees or bushes anyplace nearby.  No edibles.  A nice mixed-species lawn is ideal.

A golf-course equivalent lawn is excessive.

MudPuppy

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #125 on: December 11, 2020, 09:58:35 AM »
Quote
A golf-course equivalent lawn is excessive.

This makes the objections to lawns that are raised in this thread make a lot more sense. My frame of reference is definitely lawns with various species (clover, wild garlic, various wild herbs and grasses) that don’t require any maintenance but occasional mowing.

talltexan

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2020, 10:05:13 AM »
The mortgage interest tax deduction is harmful policy on net.

windytrail

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2020, 12:32:55 PM »
We should be spending as much on public transit as we do on highways. (Currently, the split on federal funding is 80% to highways and 20% to transit).

Make drivers pay to use highways, especially during rush hour. A substantial portion of the people driving on our roadways are only there because we’re subsidizing the cost of their trip.

ysette9

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2020, 03:16:58 PM »
Lawns - what else is there to plant over your leach field?  You don't want anything with deep roots, so no trees or bushes anyplace nearby.  No edibles.  A nice mixed-species lawn is ideal.

A golf-course equivalent lawn is excessive.
I think the stance on lawns depends a lot on where you are. In a place where grass grows naturally in the wild due to sufficient rainfall then a lawn might not be a crazy idea, just a missed opportunity. In drought-prone and arid areas a lawn is both an extravagant waste of a limited resource and a missed opportunity. 

myrrh

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2020, 04:13:30 PM »
Here's mine:
Obesity is only correlated with, not a cause of, bad health - and I don't think the correlation is as big as most seem to think.

Green_Tea

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #130 on: December 12, 2020, 04:21:46 AM »
Here's mine:
Obesity is only correlated with, not a cause of, bad health - and I don't think the correlation is as big as most seem to think.

I think it's a cause of (e.g. risk factor for joint problems and diabetes) as well as correlated with but I agree that both is not as high as most people think (there's actually research backing this).
 
Quote
I think the stance on lawns depends a lot on where you are. In a place where grass grows naturally in the wild due to sufficient rainfall then a lawn might not be a crazy idea, just a missed opportunity. In drought-prone and arid areas a lawn is both an extravagant waste of a limited resource and a missed opportunity. 

Natural "grass" isn't like a lawn at all though, it's loads of different species and very beneficial to wildlife (contrarily to a lawn).
Hm, upon re-reading I think that's what you meant with the missed opportunity :)

I certainly stand out in the US with my feeling that there is almost no reason for anyone civilian to have a gun in his or her personal possession.

Something I absolutely cannot get my head around - come to Europe and you'll agree with absolutely everyone except maybe some very crazy person ;)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 04:24:11 AM by Green_Tea »

RetiredAt63

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2020, 05:39:37 AM »
Here's mine:
Obesity is only correlated with, not a cause of, bad health - and I don't think the correlation is as big as most seem to think.

I think it's a cause of (e.g. risk factor for joint problems and diabetes) as well as correlated with but I agree that both is not as high as most people think (there's actually research backing this).
 
Quote
I think the stance on lawns depends a lot on where you are. In a place where grass grows naturally in the wild due to sufficient rainfall then a lawn might not be a crazy idea, just a missed opportunity. In drought-prone and arid areas a lawn is both an extravagant waste of a limited resource and a missed opportunity. 

Natural "grass" isn't like a lawn at all though, it's loads of different species and very beneficial to wildlife (contrarily to a lawn).
Hm, upon re-reading I think that's what you meant with the missed opportunity :)

I certainly stand out in the US with my feeling that there is almost no reason for anyone civilian to have a gun in his or her personal possession.

Something I absolutely cannot get my head around - come to Europe and you'll agree with absolutely everyone except maybe some very crazy person ;)

None of my lawns had pure grass stands.  I've counted up to 20 non-grass species.  During dry spells my green lawn was all the non-grasses, the grasses were dormant.

That beautiful English lawn traditionally was full of clover.  So were our lawns until the herbicide companies brain-washed people into thinking lawns should only be grasses.  Clover is as easily killed as any other broad-leaf "weed".


ysette9

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #132 on: December 12, 2020, 10:23:51 AM »

Quote
I think the stance on lawns depends a lot on where you are. In a place where grass grows naturally in the wild due to sufficient rainfall then a lawn might not be a crazy idea, just a missed opportunity. In drought-prone and arid areas a lawn is both an extravagant waste of a limited resource and a missed opportunity. 

Natural "grass" isn't like a lawn at all though, it's loads of different species and very beneficial to wildlife (contrarily to a lawn).
Hm, upon re-reading I think that's what you meant with the missed opportunity :)

I certainly stand out in the US with my feeling that there is almost no reason for anyone civilian to have a gun in his or her personal possession.

Something I absolutely cannot get my head around - come to Europe and you'll agree with absolutely everyone except maybe some very crazy person ;)

On grass, I meant that it is a missed opportunity to grow veggies or fruit trees/bushes or pretty flowers or something that smells good or supporte wildlife like bees or butterflies. :)

On guns, yes, i often feel like I don’t quite fit in here in the US. I spent a year in France as an exchange student, so while I don’t share all values you might call “European”, I do feel like overall it is a better fit for me there.

samanil

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #133 on: December 12, 2020, 07:51:40 PM »
Whites aren't necessarily more privileged than other races.

Men aren't necessarily more privileged than women.

Very persuasive arguments have been made asserting the opposite, and they are worthy of consideration and discussion.

I wouldn't bring this up with most people as I am a white male and would be swiftly slandered (I live in Seattle), but I think (hope) Mustachians can hear it without getting nasty.

Tass

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #134 on: December 12, 2020, 08:48:42 PM »
Pfft, if you think "very few" people agree with you on that, you must not spend much time looking for the like-minded. Perhaps that's even commendable.

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #135 on: December 12, 2020, 08:49:55 PM »
Whites aren't necessarily more privileged than other races.

Men aren't necessarily more privileged than women.

Very persuasive arguments have been made asserting the opposite, and they are worthy of consideration and discussion.

I wouldn't bring this up with most people as I am a white male and would be swiftly slandered (I live in Seattle), but I think (hope) Mustachians can hear it without getting nasty.

Oh please, tell me more.

Metalcat

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #136 on: December 12, 2020, 09:34:30 PM »
Whites aren't necessarily more privileged than other races.

Men aren't necessarily more privileged than women.

Very persuasive arguments have been made asserting the opposite, and they are worthy of consideration and discussion.

I wouldn't bring this up with most people as I am a white male and would be swiftly slandered (I live in Seattle), but I think (hope) Mustachians can hear it without getting nasty.

I'm going to assume that this comes down largely to a particular interpretation of what white and male privilege are.

They don't mean that a member of one group has it better than a member of another, although it can. It specifically means that one group experiences challenges that are specific to being a member of that group that members of the other group don't experience.

You don't experience negative judgements and treatment of you because of the colour of your skin. People of colour do. Does that mean they can't transcend those particular challenges? No of course not, it just means that they deal with it and you don't. You have the privilege of not having to even think about it.

You don't have to worry about the texture of your hair being perceived as "unprofessional". It's just not something you need to think about, you can just get a normal haircut and go to an interview.

A poor white man born to addicts, who has low IQ and poor impulse control due to fetal alcohol syndrome, who was also malnourished as a child, lost his fingers to frostbite, and is addicted to meth is DEFINITELY not walking around with much privilege. But he still has white male privilege because none of his problems are *because* of his skin colour or his gender.

His issues are because he lacks
-wealth privilege
-intelligence privilege
-able bodied privilege
-social class privilege
-educational privilege
-mental health privilege

There are many different types of privilege. Don't look at it so much as the advantage that you have as a white male, just be open to understanding that there's just some crap you don't have to deal with because you aren't a person of colour or a woman.

As a white person who grew up living part time with a black family and having lived with a black man, there are just some things that I don't have to deal with that they do. That's my privilege being white. The biggest one being that I just expect police to see me as a nice, middle class lady who poses no threat whatsoever, which is exactly how police have always treated me. My ex? Not so much.

Now, my ex had all sorts of bougie privilege that I didn't growing up. He's also able bodied and I'm not. His life has overall been much, much easier than mine. But he doesn't have white privilege. He experiences particular challenges of being black that I will never have to deal with because I'm white. His life is so much easier than mine, but I never ever have police hover their hands over their guns when they see me, it never happens, ever, they smile at me and say "bonjour Madame". My life has been hard, but not *because* I'm white. His life has been pretty easy, but has certain difficulties mine doesn't *just because* he's black.
That's white privilege in a nutshell.

Does that maybe make a little sense?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 09:38:21 PM by Malcat »

Green_Tea

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2020, 09:13:11 AM »
Thank you @Malcat for this well put answer!

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2020, 10:36:25 AM »
Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence.



 I believe it is true that  ultimately, "nothing can be known," the baneful, nagging curse of the indefatigable  philosopher.

That "nothing can be known" does not trouble  me because I and billions of people understand and accept that specific configurations of invented symbols have exact meanings; a cat is not a pen,  a hammer is not an apple, and love is not anger.

I think most people would not agree with me that ultimately, "nothing can be known."
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 10:57:37 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2020, 02:34:11 PM »
Loud cars should be illegal.

I'm not sure if it's important, tbh, but my feelings on the subject are strong.

Interesting one, this. I'm a lassez faire market proponent, but I kinda agree with you on this one.

It's strange with all the clamour about the Green movement how noise pollution has kinda escaped the wrap.

On a physical level it can be argued that emitters of loud noise are effectively disturbing the air molecules in my personal space, so violates the non-aggression principle.

Of course a lot of things make a lot of noise and it's not practical to completely ban everything that generates noise, but IMO there is a strong case for a noise tax on much machinery.

I'd love to see this on motorcycles . . . which are on average significantly louder than cars in my experience.

I would be willing to say motorcycles can't be made louder *on purpose* but otherwise allow them... Perhaps during daylight hours only... Just because they are so much more gas efficient. Motorcycles will always be louder than cars [until electric??] but most are much louder than necessary.

Loud cars truly have no purpose and can be heard by thousands of people within minutes or seconds. I am certain I have had my hearing damaged by loud cars passing me while biking. It is both a health hazard and a public nuisance.

I suppose to be specific I only want them to be illegal to drive in residential areas!
I think we can agree that there is quite a range of loudness for motorcycles. There is a Japanese motorcycle that makes noise, yes. Then there are the fat American ones driven by aging long-haired rebels that purposefully break OSHA standards for a healthy environment. If we were to cut back that noise to mere mortal motorcycle levels we could save everyone some hearing loss.

I thought motorcycles were purposely made louder because of how much harder they were for other vehicles to see? It is a form of protection for the driver that they can be heard when they cannot be seen.  It doesn't mean that it isn't annoying but as a frequent runner/bike rider, I wouldn't mind people knowing I'm around since a significant number of drivers are trash at paying attention to their full surroundings. 

Queen Frugal

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #140 on: December 13, 2020, 02:37:29 PM »
I agree that grass is dumb. I replanted my entire lawn (5000 sq ft city lot) in native wildflowers from seed. I'm a year in. No watering, no mowing, no spraying, just pulling weeds now and then. If I had more sun and less squirrels, I would have planted some fruit and veggies and ate my lawn. Instead, I just have native wildflowers and native grasses.

We need more taxes.

Capitalism will die without the injection of incentivized morality.

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #141 on: December 13, 2020, 02:39:41 PM »
I thought motorcycles were purposely made louder because of how much harder they were for other vehicles to see? It is a form of protection for the driver that they can be heard when they cannot be seen.  It doesn't mean that it isn't annoying but as a frequent runner/bike rider, I wouldn't mind people knowing I'm around since a significant number of drivers are trash at paying attention to their full surroundings. 

I have never heard that explanation before, and I'm skeptical of it. Motorcycles are made louder because they're "manlier" that way. Harley Davidson has trademarked the sound of their motorcycles because it's an "iconic" part of the brand. Apparently some people also modify their own motorcycle mufflers to make them louder.

They have their headlights on at all times to make them more eye-catching, so I can somewhat see the logic, but sound just isn't a great way to alert other drivers to your location.

RunningintoFI

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #142 on: December 13, 2020, 02:51:31 PM »
Whites aren't necessarily more privileged than other races.

Men aren't necessarily more privileged than women.

Very persuasive arguments have been made asserting the opposite, and they are worthy of consideration and discussion.

I wouldn't bring this up with most people as I am a white male and would be swiftly slandered (I live in Seattle), but I think (hope) Mustachians can hear it without getting nasty.

There is a certain sense of irony to the fact that as part of the most privileged group in our society, you cannot voice your own opinions without potentially losing your job/friends/employability/reputation all because you were born in a certain group. 

To lend one small vote of support to your point about privileges, there is a wide disparity in the US prison population between men and women and especially between African American men and all other races/genders.  It is not to say that there are not certain advantages inherent in most groups in other areas, but if you are going to come face to face with the justice system in the US, it is better to be a female and especially white. 

RunningintoFI

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #143 on: December 13, 2020, 02:59:27 PM »
I thought motorcycles were purposely made louder because of how much harder they were for other vehicles to see? It is a form of protection for the driver that they can be heard when they cannot be seen.  It doesn't mean that it isn't annoying but as a frequent runner/bike rider, I wouldn't mind people knowing I'm around since a significant number of drivers are trash at paying attention to their full surroundings. 

I have never heard that explanation before, and I'm skeptical of it. Motorcycles are made louder because they're "manlier" that way. Harley Davidson has trademarked the sound of their motorcycles because it's an "iconic" part of the brand. Apparently some people also modify their own motorcycle mufflers to make them louder.

They have their headlights on at all times to make them more eye-catching, so I can somewhat see the logic, but sound just isn't a great way to alert other drivers to your location.

Doing a bit more research, it appears most modifications are made post purchase so it's not a built in feature to be quite so loud.  Seems more likely that it is a status component instead of anything else like you mentioned.  Plus it just doesn't make sense how being louder would help alert cars in front of you given the sound is coming out the back exhaust. 

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #144 on: December 13, 2020, 03:28:45 PM »
I agree that grass is dumb. I replanted my entire lawn (5000 sq ft city lot) in native wildflowers from seed. I'm a year in. No watering, no mowing, no spraying, just pulling weeds now and then. If I had more sun and less squirrels, I would have planted some fruit and veggies and ate my lawn. Instead, I just have native wildflowers and native grasses.



I hate lawns and I hate mowing them

The  "lawn" portion of my rural property is just natural grass (I think) on ~2 acres.

In the spring I let it grow to ~2 feet and when it dries out I cut it.

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #145 on: December 13, 2020, 05:12:44 PM »
Here's mine:
Obesity is only correlated with, not a cause of, bad health - and I don't think the correlation is as big as most seem to think.

I think it's a cause of (e.g. risk factor for joint problems and diabetes) as well as correlated with but I agree that both is not as high as most people think (there's actually research backing this).
 
Quote
I think the stance on lawns depends a lot on where you are. In a place where grass grows naturally in the wild due to sufficient rainfall then a lawn might not be a crazy idea, just a missed opportunity. In drought-prone and arid areas a lawn is both an extravagant waste of a limited resource and a missed opportunity. 

Natural "grass" isn't like a lawn at all though, it's loads of different species and very beneficial to wildlife (contrarily to a lawn).
Hm, upon re-reading I think that's what you meant with the missed opportunity :)

I certainly stand out in the US with my feeling that there is almost no reason for anyone civilian to have a gun in his or her personal possession.

Something I absolutely cannot get my head around - come to Europe and you'll agree with absolutely everyone except maybe some very crazy person ;)
Funny, all of DH ‘s male relatives are required to keep a firearm in Switzerland.

Switzerland is in Europe.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 05:14:44 PM by iris lily »

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2020, 05:28:04 PM »
I'm curious, how socially acceptable is it for civilians in Switzerland to openly carry firearms?

Here in the Philippines, it's not normal to see ordinary civilians openly carrying, but is completely normal to have private security guards at the entrance of every establishment (banks, restaurants, malls, hospitals, schools, etc.) who openly carry shotguns or handguns.

samanil

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #147 on: December 13, 2020, 05:28:39 PM »
Whites aren't necessarily more privileged than other races.

Men aren't necessarily more privileged than women.

Very persuasive arguments have been made asserting the opposite, and they are worthy of consideration and discussion.

I wouldn't bring this up with most people as I am a white male and would be swiftly slandered (I live in Seattle), but I think (hope) Mustachians can hear it without getting nasty.

Oh please, tell me more.

Sure. Regarding men vs women, men are more likely to...

- kill themselves
- be in jail
- get murdered
- overdose
- die on the job (all of the "death professions" are predominantly men)
- be homeless
- get killed in war they were forced to fight (the number of forgotten men sentenced to death via war over the course of history, including recent history, is unfathomable)
- die due to chronic illness

Regarding white privilege, Asian households have higher incomes than white households. If "systemic racism" and "white privilege" and "white supremacy" were the dominating forces a lot of people seem to believe, an obvious result (in my opinion) would be that white households would have the highest incomes.

Malcat, your theoretical white male meth addict without fingers, a low IQ due to fetal alcohol syndrome etc. sounds like he has such a miserable, disadvantaged existence that I personally don't see how, on a practical day-to-day level, there is any form of "privilege" in his life. At that point his "white male privilege" is pretty much just an abstract concept. In terms of his actual experience, his life is shaped almost entirely by disadvantages. So, practically speaking, he has no white male privilege.

To take a real life example, in Seattle, where I live, you could (pre covid) take a casual stroll through downtown, and you'd see many white people out on the streets living in squalor, but no Indian people. By contrast you'd see a disproportionate number of Indian people walking between the various Amazon buildings with their Amazon id's hanging from lanyards around their necks. I don't understand how the ideology of white privilege can thrive in a city where there are clear examples of minorities succeeding while lots of white people (mostly men) are living in total destitution.

jmwagner5, it is indeed ironic that by voicing my opinion I could lose my reputation etc. simply because I am a white male. That's an example of how being a white male is actually a disadvantage. I've had people try to silence me and claim my opinion is invalid because I am a white male and thus am too privileged to have a legitimate opinion. What's interesting is that I am half Jewish, and I recently learned that my great grandma on the Jewish side left eastern Europe in the early 20th century and went to New York. All of her siblings  stayed in eastern Europe and were killed in the Holocaust. There is a lot of trauma and dysfunction in my family, and it's difficult to know for sure but I think it's definitely possible that the obliteration of a large part of my recent ancestry played a role in that (due to an event more recent and just as ghastly as the enslavement of blacks). My dad is Jewish, which is one of the highest income demographics in America, but he was homeless when I was a child and lived in rent controlled housing for the last 20 years. The blanket assumptions made about "privileged white males" is grossly superficial and wrong.

Tass

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #148 on: December 13, 2020, 05:34:03 PM »
I'm still just confused that you think this is a rare opinion. I've been reading posts just like this all over the internet for years.

samanil

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Re: What important truth do very few people agree with you on?
« Reply #149 on: December 13, 2020, 05:41:52 PM »
I'm still just confused that you think this is a rare opinion. I've been reading posts just like this all over the internet for years.

Sorry, let me clarify. It is rare in cities and especially in academia.