What gives on this forum?

[sheepstache]

I disagree with the premise of the question. Mustachianism is not about facepunching people and badgering them into spending less or becoming financially independent. It's about empowering people to realize that there is a different way than what is considered "normal" by society.

You don't HAVE to buy a brand new car every 3 years to prove that you're successful.

You don't HAVE to buy a McMansion in the suburbs to prove that you're a grown up.

You don't HAVE to go on an expensive vacation paid for by credit cards to prove that you're enjoying life.

In general, you don't HAVE to spend proportional to your income and embrace every consumer convenience thrown at you.

For most Americans this is already a revolutionary message.

Mustachianism is not prescriptive or doctrinaire, it's a "choose your own adventure" philosophy, where you

(1) Decide what you really want in life, whether it's to be able to stay home with your kids or to travel the world without working or to simply retire in 10 years.

(2) Figure out what percentage of your current income you have to save.

(3) Figure out what changes to your spending, earning, lifestyle you need to do in order to achieve your goals.

Some people require drastic changes, particularly if they are drowning in debt and are saving virtually nothing. THIS is where "facepunching" comes in handy.

But other people can accomplish their goals even with relatively large spending because their income is high enough to allow them some "wasteful" spending even while they save 70%-80%.

Mustachianism gives you the tools, ideas and philosophy to take control of your finances and your life. It doesn't tell you whether or not you should bike to work, eat at restaurants or own a sailboat. It does give you the ability to figure out the costs/benefits of each option, how they may affect your financial future and how you can design a different lifestyle if you are not satisfied with your current trajectory.

I think you summed it up really well here.

Is it? Because in the latest blog he specifically says that it wasn't a top down process where they decided they had to cut money out of their budget. And sure he says if he wanted to go to DisneyLand, he simply would. But then he goes on to say that he wouldn't want to because of the extent to which he's altered his thinking through philosophy.

Don't get me wrong. Rweba has made a good summation of a great financial approach that a lot of people would benefit from adopting.

[Grid]

No! Unless I missed it, I don't think MMM has ever said it depended on your savings rate.  MMM implies that he lived on 10-15k plus his mortgage payments (at least this is what I've understood from his yearly expenses graphs). He didn't save #% , call it good, and then give himself a free pass to frivolity. Everything was a waste until his goal was met. He learned not to want those things until they were hardly or not at all on his radar and even now being a millionaire, he still doesn't have a high cell phone plan or a $1000/month entertainment budget.

Two thoughts:

- You find your comfort level, you make your plan, and I'll do the same.  If yours doesn't match mine, that doesn't mean one of us is making a mistake. 

- Something I don't quite grasp is seeing MMM almost as if he's Jesus.  He has good ideas.  Some of them will work for me, while others won't.  I can pick and choose what works for my life; I don't have to adopt all his philosophies.

+1  A couple of days ago I was contemplating posting about a pattern I saw in myself and to see if others had seen something similar.  I started with copying MMM's ideas last year, and for most of 2014 I've been realizing how I can grow outside of the MMM model and do my own thing.  Imitation until you completely understand a concept is common when learning something new, and once you understand the system, you can change it to suit your needs.  I'd guess the OP is doing the same, but is currently at the idea-copying phase.

Anyway, the blog is written from the perspective of a guy who has already retired early.  I've found some of the stuff he talks about in terms of efficiency is useful, but only if one actually has the ample free time of early retirement.  For example, childcare was free for him for a reason.

 

[SporeSpawn]

Most people are here on the forums because they WANT to do better. Meaning that, right now, they are not in the category [FI] and have habits that reflect that. As the person above said, MMM is some dude who is retired. In other words, not some dude who wants to retire in spite of crippling debt. The forums are not going to be mostly retired dudes congratulating each other on their money and slacks. They are going to be questions asked by people who don't have the habits yet or who don't have the means yet or who don't have the opportunity yet and who are trying the only ways they can currently see to get there. And since they don't have the best solutions yet, this usually entails working through the bad ones.

[YoungInvestor]

Personally, my goal in life is to be able to afford the luxuries that I want.

I'm not willing to have boring 20s in exchange for maybe having better 50s.

I try to be conscious of my choices, but yeah, once in a while, I order sushi takeout and get a decent bottle of wine. As long as my net worth is over what my excel doc says I should be at, I'm fine.

[MoneyCat]

Slightly off topic, but one of the things that throws me off on this forum is how many people are diligently toiling away with really low incomes (like say, anything less than $100k).

Ai Carumba!  And here's me making $86K thinking I was doing fairly well.  Damn, I'm "really low"?  That means the average American is in the poorhouse.

I'm with you on this.  You know all those threads about "privilege"?  Someone who believes that anything below $100k is "low income" needs to check their privilege.  And maybe leave their gated community a little more often.

[mpg350]

Some people are way to caught up in MMM and his system.  This isn't a religion and you can do whatever the heck you want.
Its not like MMM is the first person to ever live below his means.


Its all when broken down about living below your means in extreme ways so that you can retire at a much earlier age than say
65 or older.

Some people don't want to live on 20k a year…. personally I don't want do to this and I don't hate my job that much that
I want to retire before I am 35.

and to the person that says making below 100k is a low income….gtfo the avg income in this nation is like 40k if that.

[bacchi]

To me, the issue is that people refer to things as being mustachian when there's no justification for it in anything MMM has written.

Of course there is. In his 2013 spending, there's $1900 of travel spending and $650 for (gasp!) gym fees!!!!111 That's about as un-mustachian as one can get. Er, wait...*head explodes*

Which side is Big-endian and which is Little-endian? Who wants to be Mildendo?

[goodlife]

What I also think what comes into play is that your universe of opportunities/options/choices changes dramatically as you move up the income ladder/net worth ladder. When I was just out of college, my net worth was zero. Life was pretty simple. Expensive dinners, vacations, holidays etc were just not even on my radar of possibilities. Fast forward to today (age 30) and here is a financial decision that I am making that I could not have contemplated 8 years ago in my wildest dreams. I have never had a car, never wanted one, never thought I would ever buy one....but now I need one AND - gasp - I might actually buy a BMW! I know, wtf, what's wrong with me. Well, my employer offers me a program whereby I can buy a brand new BMW at half of what the normal price is...I then own it for three years...then I sell it back to my employer for the price that I bought it at guaranteed (and can repeat this indefinitely). So essentially I would own a non-depreciating car (with the obvious tradeoffs of lost interest on investing the money instead and slightly higher gas and insurance costs, but the last two are negligible because both are very cheap where I live). Now, if you saw me list a BMW as an asset on a case study here, I am sure people would point out how dumb it is to own such a car....but if they knew the above background story, things might look different. So what I am trying to say, don't judge a book by its cover.

When I was younger I always looked at people who owned luxury cars as a bit stupid...it was totally unconceivable to me to ever own such a car. But a lot of things were unconceivable to me when I wasn't earning what I ended up earning after graduation....and enjoying the intangible opportunities that come from that. Life was really simple at first...show up to work...I saved 80% of my salary...not a care in the world. Until a year later when there were over 100k in my checking account and I was like, crap, I gotta figure something out about this, can't just sit there for God's sake. I grew up poor, so the idea of "managing my assets" etc was very new to me despite working in the financial industry. Suddenly I had the options of investing in stocks or buy real estate or buy lots of crap or another 10,000 other options! Life did get more complicated...more options that I never thought of openend up for me. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, I don't want to trade with someone who is just making ends meet or paying off debt. But my universe of options and my universe of "problems" is just fundamentally different from that person, at least for the time being.

If you get to a certain wealth level then you may make choices that were just unimaginable before. That doesn't mean that they are stupid. Everyone has different priorities. Maybe you want to get to FI as fast as possible, and that's fine. Over the past 8 years I estimate (didn't actually record this) that I probably spent 60k on airfare to all kinds of cool places. That would have been inconceivable to me in college. A sum of 60k was inconceivable to me! That's more than 2X of my parents' yearly family income their whole life! I couldn't even phathom earning such an amount, let alone spending it! But do I regret that? No, absolutely not. I love traveling. And if I had saved those 60k instead of spending them, I would be 6 months closer to FI. Yes, 6 months, that's all given my income and savings rate. I love traveling more than those 6 months less of working could ever be worth to me.

[Ricky]

What I also think what comes into play is that your universe of opportunities/options/choices changes dramatically as you move up the income ladder/net worth ladder. When I was just out of college, my net worth was zero. Life was pretty simple. Expensive dinners, vacations, holidays etc were just not even on my radar of possibilities. Fast forward to today (age 30) and here is a financial decision that I am making that I could not have contemplated 8 years ago in my wildest dreams. I have never had a car, never wanted one, never thought I would ever buy one....but now I need one AND - gasp - I might actually buy a BMW! I know, wtf, what's wrong with me. Well, my employer offers me a program whereby I can buy a brand new BMW at half of what the normal price is...I then own it for three years...then I sell it back to my employer for the price that I bought it at guaranteed (and can repeat this indefinitely). So essentially I would own a non-depreciating car (with the obvious tradeoffs of lost interest on investing the money instead and slightly higher gas and insurance costs, but the last two are negligible because both are very cheap where I live). Now, if you saw me list a BMW as an asset on a case study here, I am sure people would point out how dumb it is to own such a car....but if they knew the above background story, things might look different. So what I am trying to say, don't judge a book by its cover.

When I was younger I always looked at people who owned luxury cars as a bit stupid...it was totally unconceivable to me to ever own such a car. But a lot of things were unconceivable to me when I wasn't earning what I ended up earning after graduation....and enjoying the intangible opportunities that come from that. Life was really simple at first...show up to work...I saved 80% of my salary...not a care in the world. Until a year later when there were over 100k in my checking account and I was like, crap, I gotta figure something out about this, can't just sit there for God's sake. I grew up poor, so the idea of "managing my assets" etc was very new to me despite working in the financial industry. Suddenly I had the options of investing in stocks or buy real estate or buy lots of crap or another 10,000 other options! Life did get more complicated...more options that I never thought of openend up for me. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, I don't want to trade with someone who is just making ends meet or paying off debt. But my universe of options and my universe of "problems" is just fundamentally different from that person, at least for the time being.

If you get to a certain wealth level then you may make choices that were just unimaginable before. That doesn't mean that they are stupid. Everyone has different priorities. Maybe you want to get to FI as fast as possible, and that's fine. Over the past 8 years I estimate (didn't actually record this) that I probably spent 60k on airfare to all kinds of cool places. That would have been inconceivable to me in college. A sum of 60k was inconceivable to me! That's more than 2X of my parents' yearly family income their whole life! I couldn't even phathom earning such an amount, let alone spending it! But do I regret that? No, absolutely not. I love traveling. And if I had saved those 60k instead of spending them, I would be 6 months closer to FI. Yes, 6 months, that's all given my income and savings rate. I love traveling more than those 6 months less of working could ever be worth to me.

$60k just on airfare? Wow. Not face-punching you, just saying wow that's amazing you were able to spend that. I think you made the right choice to enjoy your 20's while making good money though.. And I'm assuming you live in NY since the no car thing and working in finance? Why even consider a car if so?

I guess the real point is that $100k is either a lot of money or hardly anything depending on what you do with it. The fact is thst as eager and peppy as you are when you're 22-23, you're not going to be that way forever in a high income/high stress job. I don't guess it has to be stressful per se, but I always hear high paying finance jobs are among the most stressful. But if you're still at an 80% savings rate, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

[Cheddar Stacker]

No! Unless I missed it, I don't think MMM has ever said it depended on your savings rate.  MMM implies that he lived on 10-15k plus his mortgage payments (at least this is what I've understood from his yearly expenses graphs). He didn't save #% , call it good, and then give himself a free pass to frivolity. Everything was a waste until his goal was met. He learned not to want those things until they were hardly or not at all on his radar and even now being a millionaire, he still doesn't have a high cell phone plan or a $1000/month entertainment budget.

Two thoughts:

- You find your comfort level, you make your plan, and I'll do the same.  If yours doesn't match mine, that doesn't mean one of us is making a mistake. 

- Something I don't quite grasp is seeing MMM almost as if he's Jesus.  He has good ideas.  Some of them will work for me, while others won't.  I can pick and choose what works for my life; I don't have to adopt all his philosophies.

+1.

Good thread, lots of great replies, but this one matches my thinking the most - Good post MrsPete. We are not disciples, we all choose our own path. And life is not a competition.

I'll just add, the marginal utility of money works both ways. When you make a lot of money and easily save 50%, convincing yourself to save $1 becomes harder. I still save that $1 most of the time, but I understand the spendypants mentality for a high earner.

Also, for me it's less about money and more about badassity, self-reliance, and muscle over motor.

[NinetyFour]

Wow--I don't know.  After reading several of these recent replies, I'm all confused now.  I feel like I need to go back and read the WaPo article about MMM that got me here in the first place.

[backyardfeast]

This is a really helpful discussion, y'all.  I think we're circling around something important, but that there's no real way to resolve.

Thanks to those who commented on the position we've consciously chosen to be stuck in: we're living our happiest ideal life now (it's the simple homestead-y one), and the trade-off is that we'll work longer.  If we gave it up temporarily and went bare bones, we could save more money faster, and then buy all this back.  It's true! Sort of.  Except that it's more complicated than that, because we're in a very high COL area, and we'd have to move far away to get out of it.  I have a specialized job that's not easy to leave--there's nothing else I could be paid this well for and like as much...well actually anywhere in the country at the moment.  We keep plugging away, and we do make changes where we can.  MMM's approach is always at the back of my mind, and we'll just keep optimizing.  The point is, we recognize the trade-offs and are making the choices that make us happy.  And we're REALLy happy.  So we're complacent. :)

And that's the paradox that I think this discussion is nailing.  In theory, MMM is trying to convince us to live a small, humble life not just because it's the right thing for the world, but because it's AWESOME.  Badass.  Fun!  But just how small and humble?  Everyone draws the line in a slightly different way.  If we're soft and supportive, that's cool, man.  Cause, ya know, ya just got ta be conscious, right?

If we're face-punchy and extreme, then it's not ok unless you've given up the car, the travel, the accessories, and are left nothing but the hand tools to Do It Yourself.  Otherwise we're consumer sukkas!

But what if the math doesn't work out? What if it DOES actually make sense to stay in the high COL area even if it has the commute?  What if it does make sense to work the 12 hr days even if my child is young and I'm missing out?  What if there are more important things in life besides FI?

Well, then we're back to the paradox of either--that's ok, mon, it's all about trade-offs and choices, or suck it up or you're a sukka.

I don't think there are any easy answers, because the truth is that if we're wealthy enough to live in places that GIVE us choices, then we're already the privileged few who just have to keep doing our best and plugging away and navigating the complexities of life in these crazy times we live in.

Sorry that was so long! Y'all are making me think!

[NinetyFour]

Wow--I don't know.  After reading several of these recent replies, I'm all confused now.  I feel like I need to go back and read the WaPo article about MMM that got me here in the first place.

My post crossed in cyberspace with Cheddar's.  I wasn't referring to Cheddar's.  I liked his and Mrs. Pete's.  But I'm still confused.  And that's OK.

[goodlife]

What I also think what comes into play is that your universe of opportunities/options/choices changes dramatically as you move up the income ladder/net worth ladder. When I was just out of college, my net worth was zero. Life was pretty simple. Expensive dinners, vacations, holidays etc were just not even on my radar of possibilities. Fast forward to today (age 30) and here is a financial decision that I am making that I could not have contemplated 8 years ago in my wildest dreams. I have never had a car, never wanted one, never thought I would ever buy one....but now I need one AND - gasp - I might actually buy a BMW! I know, wtf, what's wrong with me. Well, my employer offers me a program whereby I can buy a brand new BMW at half of what the normal price is...I then own it for three years...then I sell it back to my employer for the price that I bought it at guaranteed (and can repeat this indefinitely). So essentially I would own a non-depreciating car (with the obvious tradeoffs of lost interest on investing the money instead and slightly higher gas and insurance costs, but the last two are negligible because both are very cheap where I live). Now, if you saw me list a BMW as an asset on a case study here, I am sure people would point out how dumb it is to own such a car....but if they knew the above background story, things might look different. So what I am trying to say, don't judge a book by its cover.

When I was younger I always looked at people who owned luxury cars as a bit stupid...it was totally unconceivable to me to ever own such a car. But a lot of things were unconceivable to me when I wasn't earning what I ended up earning after graduation....and enjoying the intangible opportunities that come from that. Life was really simple at first...show up to work...I saved 80% of my salary...not a care in the world. Until a year later when there were over 100k in my checking account and I was like, crap, I gotta figure something out about this, can't just sit there for God's sake. I grew up poor, so the idea of "managing my assets" etc was very new to me despite working in the financial industry. Suddenly I had the options of investing in stocks or buy real estate or buy lots of crap or another 10,000 other options! Life did get more complicated...more options that I never thought of openend up for me. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, I don't want to trade with someone who is just making ends meet or paying off debt. But my universe of options and my universe of "problems" is just fundamentally different from that person, at least for the time being.

If you get to a certain wealth level then you may make choices that were just unimaginable before. That doesn't mean that they are stupid. Everyone has different priorities. Maybe you want to get to FI as fast as possible, and that's fine. Over the past 8 years I estimate (didn't actually record this) that I probably spent 60k on airfare to all kinds of cool places. That would have been inconceivable to me in college. A sum of 60k was inconceivable to me! That's more than 2X of my parents' yearly family income their whole life! I couldn't even phathom earning such an amount, let alone spending it! But do I regret that? No, absolutely not. I love traveling. And if I had saved those 60k instead of spending them, I would be 6 months closer to FI. Yes, 6 months, that's all given my income and savings rate. I love traveling more than those 6 months less of working could ever be worth to me.

$60k just on airfare? Wow. Not face-punching you, just saying wow that's amazing you were able to spend that. I think you made the right choice to enjoy your 20's while making good money though.. And I'm assuming you live in NY since the no car thing and working in finance? Why even consider a car if so?

I guess the real point is that $100k is either a lot of money or hardly anything depending on what you do with it. The fact is thst as eager and peppy as you are when you're 22-23, you're not going to be that way forever in a high income/high stress job. I don't guess it has to be stressful per se, but I always hear high paying finance jobs are among the most stressful. But if you're still at an 80% savings rate, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

Well, thinking about it, 60k is probably exaggerated, but I haven't been documenting it, so just threw out the number to make a point. Probably 40k is closer to the truth. But anyhow, it's A LOT either way, I agree...but I didn't spend it in some kind of zombie mode, it was a conscious decision, I really enjoy to travel...I live on another contintent than where I am from and spending that amount didn't make much of a dent into my FI plans. I started working at 25 and will be FI in 3 years...at 33. Of course THAT was also inconveivable to me. Of course having so much optionality is not always a blessing as I have pointed out on other threads. The key to spending though is that you don't lose sight of it...I know the value of a dollar...I know I have spent a lot on traveling...and I also know if I can't afford it anymore then I won't. (And traveling is really the only thing I spend money on, I am a very frugal person...wouldn't be FI in 3 years time if I wasn't). The good thing about having grown up relatively poor is that I still have that perspective. I am surrounded by a lot of people at work (and this might deserve another thread) whose spending you you can't belive. I once had dinner with a colleage, she told me her rent is 30k. I just nodded....not spectatcular or antyhing...until I realized she didn't mean 30k a year...she meant 30k per month. Nowadays such statements don't shock me anymore, I secretely think these people are nuts, but there is no point in arguing this because they don't realize how crazy it really is, they just don't have any perspective anymore when it comes to money! (I have so many stories on outrageous spending, I could really start another thread, lol). For me, I am very aware of what I am spending on traveling and that it's a real luxury but I can also just as easily not spend that if it's required.

Oh, and no, I don't work in NYC. Spent most of my career in Asia and have now moved to a new position and new city which unfortunately requires a car due to pretty much non-existent public transport. Actually, I would be fine without a car still, but for what my husband does professionally, it's impossible for him here without a car. Anyhow, it's been a good run, 30 years without a car...I think I will be here until FI...so 3 years...then I intend to return to my car-free life again (I really don't like driving) and move somewhere where I can bike a lot and rely on public transport:)))

And on a related note, I also know people my age who have died of cancer or had other terrible things happen to them (which were not preventable). I want to get to FI, but I am already someone who is always focused on the future. But the future may never come. I still save a lot on FI...but spending 3% of my yearly take-home pay on travel is very acceptable to me. So yes, I partly do agree that spending is always relative.

[Cheddar Stacker]

Wow--I don't know.  After reading several of these recent replies, I'm all confused now.  I feel like I need to go back and read the WaPo article about MMM that got me here in the first place.

My post crossed in cyberspace with Cheddar's.  I wasn't referring to Cheddar's.  I liked his and Mrs. Pete's.  But I'm still confused.  And that's OK.

Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't sure.

I just think: find a way to live a happy life, now and in the future, and try not to fuck up the planet. And spending money does not equal happiness. The rest is up to the individual.

[Goldielocks]

There's an awful lot of "complain-bragging" on this forum from people with $200k+ incomes.  I hope we will hear more from people with more average incomes who are using the Mustachian way of life to live like someone with a much higher income.  That impresses me a lot more than someone who saves 70% of their income and can still easily afford a live-in nanny.

Just in case this is in reference to my suggestion on another post, a live in nanny was the same price as daycare for two kids... $1250 per month.. With a lot more value!  Anyone looking for outside help to go back to work should know about all options, including diane c's suggestion about SAH as viable...The OP was looking at live out nanny which costs far more as you can not deduct standard room and board.

I certainly do not consider ourselves rich, although money has been much much more the past year or so- mainly due to peak earning years and my insane travel schedule. 

The OP is right on that waste is waste.  Even if you have a high savings goal.  But it is not a waste of money, per se, that is important, but wasted satisfaction with what you have and can do yourself.  Wasted time not spent with people you love and enjoying just 'being'.

MMM is about taking enjoyment in a can do attitude-  to figure out new skills as you explore life and living.  To stop equating things, money  and spending with your purpose in life.

[sheepstache]

To me, the issue is that people refer to things as being mustachian when there's no justification for it in anything MMM has written.

Of course there is. In his 2013 spending, there's $1900 of travel spending and $650 for (gasp!) gym fees!!!!111 That's about as un-mustachian as one can get. Er, wait...*head explodes*

Thank you! I have been making a stronger and stronger form of the point hoping to prod someone into coming up with some actual evidence. Because god knows I don't have the blog memorized and may be as guilty as anyone else of picking and choosing what I want to remember from it.

That example doesn't totally satisfy me because
1. I don't necessarily see an action as compelling as an explanation. His budget might contain things he doesn't necessarily see as totally compatible with his philosophy. (For example, his enjoyable experiment about wasting $1000 is one of those exception-that-proves-the-rule type things.)
2. I'm not the OP trying to prove that any expense beyond necessities is wasteful and not allowed. I'm trying to point out the lack of justification for the soft-focus philosophy others are touting as mustachian of "whatever you want to do is fine so long as it matters to you and you can afford it."
3. Again, that's why an opinion of his in writing would be better than an action, because we'd want to compare his justification of the action.
--For starters, I believe the gym membership is totally a Mrs. MM thing. And it's justified by the fact that a. healthiness is good and b. she hasn't found a free alternative for crossfit. He of course does free weight training, but she feels crossfit is special. That's where I understand that individual tastes come into it. However, they were working on building some equipment and getting friends to come over so they could have free classes that way. So it is something they're challenging themselves to pare down.
--For travel, he's freaking bare bones about travel. Didn't he trade construction work on a reader's house for free housing in Hawaii? Didn't he go into detail about how they visit relatives for like a month so they can drive their van (couch surfing if they have to stop overnight along the way) and it's cheaper than flying.
--So, the level of life-hacking that goes into this is what I come away with as the point, not 'oh, it's okay to spend whatever you want on ocean cruises if that's your priority.'


I submit as further evidence Why Should I Be Frugal When I'm So Rich?

we are now at a point where we could probably triple our annual spending forever, without running out of money. And yet, I continue to ride my 2008 commuter bike everywhere, get filthy doing local construction projects, and buy everything used from Craigslist. [ . . .]We’re even shopping around for a smaller house in the neighborhood, to downsize our space a bit. How could this possibly be? It’s because our current life is already more than enough. We don’t want to lose the challenge and the spice that is part of life right now.
[. . .]
[On his boiling rage for inefficiency:] Buying treats for yourself that aren’t truly necessary is inefficient. It’s unsatisfying.

Paul Allen’s 414-foot Octopus yacht has engines totaling 19,000 horsepower, which burn about 622 gallons of diesel fuel per hour at cruising speed. It’s currently off the coast of Australia, a journey which took about $780,000 of fuel to make. This is an inefficient way to have fun. A man skilled at having fun should be able to achieve equal bliss within walking distance of his own house. He could then invest the surplus funds to save a few lives, which are surprisingly affordable these days at only about $200 per human according to Peter Singer. Or you could start companies, fix cities, or even change countries. All challenging and effort-filled endeavors[ . . .]

And so I’d like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So I’d rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness.

After all, which would you rather be, the man who requires 622 gallons per hour of diesel and a crew of 60 to have fun, or the one who can do it just by stepping out his front door?

I totally agree we shouldn't go around rejecting people for taking what they want out of MMM or because they don't ride a bike or whatever. It just feels sometimes like people don't even realize they haven't even grasped the hard-core version of the message.

It reminds me of a bit from the movie Shine about genius pianist David Helfgott. He has taken off his glasses while still rehearsing.
Teacher: The page, for God’s sake! The notes!
David: Sorry, sir. Forgetting the notes.
Teacher: Would it be asking too much to learn them first?
David: And then forget them?
Teacher: Precisely.

And as for relative spending, personally, even though I'm one of the low earners on here, I don't mind if a person who earns even less than I do wants to facepunch me. I'm surrounded by people who earn what I do or more, so I'm happy to have my complacency about anything and everything questioned.

[Joel]

I personally do not give a shit about "mustachianism". I enjoy saving money and would like to retire early. I've found great advice on this forum regarding real estate investments (and references to bigger pockets), asset allocations (and references to bogleheads), and various other techniques and ideas to save money. I max my 401k and my IRA, I'm only 25, and I save 50%+. Without this forum I probably would not have maxed my 401k this year, but instead would have put that money in my taxable account. I'm also spending 30k on a wedding coming up, I will never drop cable because I like watching the niners and giants play, and I'll always own a car (technically two since I have a hot did that just sits and collects dust).

There's lots of great advice to be found on this forum. Personally I am not a fan of the face punches, or people trying to measure who can spend the absolute least. That's not what this is about. It's about conscious spending on what's important to you. It's all about making your best effort to be more efficient with the resources you have and we all have. That's it.

I don't even care about savings rates. It's all about doing the best you can with what you have. I've checked mine once just to get a ballpark of it, but in the end it's not a competition, and it's not a race. If I can help teach a coworker about increasing their 401k, or compound interest, or marginal tax rates. I'm happy.

Anyways, I'm probably talking in circles now. I initially did not like this forum because of all the face punches, and attacking personalities when people weren't perfect. I try to stay out of those type of threads. There is valuable information that I would have missed out on if I did not get past that.

[Neustache]

I personally do not give a shit about "mustachianism". I enjoy saving money and would like to retire early. I've found great advice on this forum regarding real estate investments (and references to bigger pockets), asset allocations (and references to bogleheads), and various other techniques and ideas to save money. I max my 401k and my IRA, I'm only 25, and I save 50%+. Without this forum I probably would not have maxed my 401k this year, but instead would have put that money in my taxable account. I'm also spending 30k on a wedding coming up, I will never drop cable because I like watching the niners and giants play, and I'll always own a car (technically two since I have a hot did that just sits and collects dust).

There's lots of great advice to be found on this forum. Personally I am not a fan of the face punches, or people trying to measure who can spend the absolute least. That's not what this is about. It's about conscious spending on what's important to you. It's all about making your best effort to be more efficient with the resources you have and we all have. That's it.

I don't even care about savings rates. It's all about doing the best you can with what you have. I've checked mine once just to get a ballpark of it, but in the end it's not a competition, and it's not a race. If I can help teach a coworker about increasing their 401k, or compound interest, or marginal tax rates. I'm happy.

Anyways, I'm probably talking in circles now. I initially did not like this forum because of all the face punches, and attacking personalities when people weren't perfect. I try to stay out of those type of threads. There is valuable information that I would have missed out on if I did not get past that.

I'm kind of with you (even if I did refer to savings rate in one thread).  I'm not in it like's it a religion to follow with a bunch of rules or whatnot.  I won't be purchasing any WWMMMD bracelets.  There's guiding principles for me, and that's it, and I like it that way.   I always thought "Mustachianism" was meant tongue in cheek.  I'm not certain everyone here feels that way.  LOL.

[neo von retorch]

I'm looking for inspiration. You can punch me in the face if you want, but I've got a tough jaw. I'll probably become defiant and stubbornly continue doing whatever awful, wasteful, flippant, spendthrift thing I was doing before. But every once in a while, I'm inspired. I'm reminded of the joys of being around when your kid wants to go play by the stream or the pain of looking at a beautiful day through tinted windows (if you're so lucky).

I don't want my life to pass me by while I'm in a cubicle, and I often need a reminder of that when I'm about to buy a shinier widget or convenient kitchen gadget. But that reminder is probably going to be someone talking about their experiences, rather than just telling me that they're judging me. I already just myself. I don't like the mistakes I make. Pointing them out to me probably doesn't help me. But if I can find some inspiration bubbling up inside me, I just might change myself.

[Terrestrial]

I think the problem with trying to apply blanket lifestyle and spending rules to everybody and saying that if something is different than what MMM would do it's 'wrong/uneccessary' is that...everybody values things differently.   Perhaps I think someone's 2k of travel per year is ridiculous and wasteful, while they think me spending $500 on restaurants because I enjoy good meals is just completely outrageous. 

To me 'mustacianism' has never been about not spending money on things I don't purely 'need'.  I don't 'need' more than one bike but I have several...i don't 'need' to have football season tickets but it's my favorite thing to do with my family in the fall, and we didn't 'need' to book tickets to see our east coast family for xmas this year...but they are all things that makes my family happy.  Mustacianism to me is about being self aware with enough willpower to cut out crap you don't value in order to both be able to fund the hobbies/experiences that do truly make you happy, while saving enough to reach whatever financial goals one sets for themselves, whether that's FI, RE, or what not. 

To the people who have boats and such...do I personally think they are a waste of money, in general yes, would I buy one, probably not, but for some people that's what they value the most and that's fine, to each their own.  Perhaps these people don't give a crap about football or traveling for xmas and would never spend what I do for football and plane tickets every year because they don't value that.

[SporeSpawn]

Regarding all the complaints about an "MMM religion" that seems to exist here on the forums, I can say it's really no surprise. I came over from LessWrong, and, while smart, many of them would follow Eliezer Yudkowsky and a few others right into a volcano if push came to shove. Not all of them, but many of them.

It's the guru thing. People tend to become over-awed by individuals who reveal to them a way of thinking they either a.) had not considered before but find extremely sufficient and desirable or b.) have considered before but never had the will to pursue until they discovered this person.

MMM's main strength as a blogger is that he writes aggressively. Everything else he does (the math, the money saving ideas, the financial advice) has all been done by others. He's making it digestible for a new readership. What gets him "followers" is that he's charismatic. That's a good thing because we want writers like MMM out there telling Average Joe "wake up man!" But a lot of those Average Joes who listen aren't going to go, "This chap's right!" and then start doing all the work on his own. They'll think "Listening to this man saved me money. I should listen to him more and more!"

People falls for gurus, it happens. Sadly, it can happen whether the guru is good or not.

[boarder42]

I'm one of the high spenders we plan to retire on 48k/yr. I found this site due to the shockingly simple post. It woke me up to math I was over looking as well as motivated me to increase my savings.  You don't have to be 100% mustachian to benefit from what he says. Could I cut my boat and retire 2 years earlier. Probably. Could I cut out the vacations we take and cut another year. Probably. But I enjoy these things.  I'll work 3 extra years to continue enjoying these things until I die.  There is a mix. You don't have to be 100% Pete to gain an earlier retirement and consume less.

[BuildingFrugalHabits]

I personally do not give a shit about "mustachianism". I enjoy saving money and would like to retire early. I've found great advice on this forum regarding real estate investments (and references to bigger pockets), asset allocations (and references to bogleheads), and various other techniques and ideas to save money. I max my 401k and my IRA, I'm only 25, and I save 50%+. Without this forum I probably would not have maxed my 401k this year, but instead would have put that money in my taxable account. I'm also spending 30k on a wedding coming up, I will never drop cable because I like watching the niners and giants play, and I'll always own a car (technically two since I have a hot did that just sits and collects dust).

There's lots of great advice to be found on this forum. Personally I am not a fan of the face punches, or people trying to measure who can spend the absolute least. That's not what this is about. It's about conscious spending on what's important to you. It's all about making your best effort to be more efficient with the resources you have and we all have. That's it.

I don't even care about savings rates. It's all about doing the best you can with what you have. I've checked mine once just to get a ballpark of it, but in the end it's not a competition, and it's not a race. If I can help teach a coworker about increasing their 401k, or compound interest, or marginal tax rates. I'm happy.

Anyways, I'm probably talking in circles now. I initially did not like this forum because of all the face punches, and attacking personalities when people weren't perfect. I try to stay out of those type of threads. There is valuable information that I would have missed out on if I did not get past that.

+1
I have a hard time using the trademarked phrases like facepunch, complainy pants, mustachian etc.  Let's call it what it is: frugality with an environmental emphasis and acknowledge that MMM does not have a patent on this philosophy.  I read the blog because it he does write about it in a way that is entertaining and engaging and because his point of view really resonates.  I read the forums to learn new tips and tricks.  Like Joel, I started maxing out my 401k instead of taxable thanks to you all.  I think its a red flag when people are afraid to think for themselves and conversely when they are too close-minded to see that a different approach may work better.  As others have pointed out, this is not a religion or a cult but I've been characteristics of both of those at times.  I think we just need to keep the dogma in check and we'll be good.

[BPA]

Regarding all the complaints about an "MMM religion" that seems to exist here on the forums, I can say it's really no surprise. I came over from LessWrong, and, while smart, many of them would follow Eliezer Yudkowsky and a few others right into a volcano if push came to shove. Not all of them, but many of them.

It's the guru thing. People tend to become over-awed by individuals who reveal to them a way of thinking they either a.) had not considered before but find extremely sufficient and desirable or b.) have considered before but never had the will to pursue until they discovered this person.

MMM's main strength as a blogger is that he writes aggressively. Everything else he does (the math, the money saving ideas, the financial advice) has all been done by others. He's making it digestible for a new readership. What gets him "followers" is that he's charismatic. That's a good thing because we want writers like MMM out there telling Average Joe "wake up man!" But a lot of those Average Joes who listen aren't going to go, "This chap's right!" and then start doing all the work on his own. They'll think "Listening to this man saved me money. I should listen to him more and more!"

People falls for gurus, it happens. Sadly, it can happen whether the guru is good or not.

Interesting perspective. 

That might be the case for some people, but I don't think all.

Those of us who lived a spending conscious existence before there was an MMM aren't won over by a guru.  I appreciate Jacob's viewpoints, but he's not exactly charismatic.  Since MMM has gone more mainstream, I actually find Jacob's forum more in line with the way I think, but overall, I'd say that I fall somewhere between ERE and MMM.  I found the early days of this forum more in line with the way I think. 

Now I'm curious to check out LessWrong.  :)

[Stellar]

No! Unless I missed it, I don't think MMM has ever said it depended on your savings rate.  MMM implies that he lived on 10-15k plus his mortgage payments (at least this is what I've understood from his yearly expenses graphs). He didn't save #% , call it good, and then give himself a free pass to frivolity. Everything was a waste until his goal was met. He learned not to want those things until they were hardly or not at all on his radar and even now being a millionaire, he still doesn't have a high cell phone plan or a $1000/month entertainment budget.

Two thoughts:

- You find your comfort level, you make your plan, and I'll do the same.  If yours doesn't match mine, that doesn't mean one of us is making a mistake. 

- Something I don't quite grasp is seeing MMM almost as if he's Jesus.  He has good ideas.  Some of them will work for me, while others won't.  I can pick and choose what works for my life; I don't have to adopt all his philosophies.

What I was thinking.  Just skip over what doesn't apply. Not sure why that's such a difficult concept.

[boarder42]

No! Unless I missed it, I don't think MMM has ever said it depended on your savings rate.  MMM implies that he lived on 10-15k plus his mortgage payments (at least this is what I've understood from his yearly expenses graphs). He didn't save #% , call it good, and then give himself a free pass to frivolity. Everything was a waste until his goal was met. He learned not to want those things until they were hardly or not at all on his radar and even now being a millionaire, he still doesn't have a high cell phone plan or a $1000/month entertainment budget.

Two thoughts:

- You find your comfort level, you make your plan, and I'll do the same.  If yours doesn't match mine, that doesn't mean one of us is making a mistake. 

- Something I don't quite grasp is seeing MMM almost as if he's Jesus.  He has good ideas.  Some of them will work for me, while others won't.  I can pick and choose what works for my life; I don't have to adopt all his philosophies.

What I was thinking.  Just skip over what doesn't apply. Not sure why that's such a difficult concept.

Because it doesn't work that way to be a member here you MUST abide by ALL mustacian concepts. This isn't like being a cafeteria Catholic. You either follow everything or you're doomed to retire at 65 with absolutely nothing like all others.

[MoneyCat]

There are an awful lot of people on this forum who are paying zero attention to what MMM has to say.  Mustachianism is all about personal fulfillment and a large part of that comes from self-sufficiency through the acquisition of skills.  I read tons of posts on this forum every day from people who are outsourcing stuff that they could easily do themselves.  That's one step removed from using an app to find someone to do your laundry or paying someone to ship frozen gourmet meals to your house so you don't have to cook.  Just because you have a ton of money, that doesn't mean that you should spend it to make life "easier" for yourself.  Ask yourself if you would have any value in the face of an EMP burst.  In they were honest, most people would answer "no".  Because of Mustachianism, I know I would be A-OK.

[sheepstache]

Regarding all the complaints about an "MMM religion" that seems to exist here on the forums, I can say it's really no surprise. I came over from LessWrong, and, while smart, many of them would follow Eliezer Yudkowsky and a few others right into a volcano if push came to shove. Not all of them, but many of them.

It's the guru thing. People tend to become over-awed by individuals who reveal to them a way of thinking they either a.) had not considered before but find extremely sufficient and desirable or b.) have considered before but never had the will to pursue until they discovered this person.

MMM's main strength as a blogger is that he writes aggressively. Everything else he does (the math, the money saving ideas, the financial advice) has all been done by others. He's making it digestible for a new readership. What gets him "followers" is that he's charismatic. That's a good thing because we want writers like MMM out there telling Average Joe "wake up man!" But a lot of those Average Joes who listen aren't going to go, "This chap's right!" and then start doing all the work on his own. They'll think "Listening to this man saved me money. I should listen to him more and more!"

People falls for gurus, it happens. Sadly, it can happen whether the guru is good or not.

Interesting perspective. 

That might be the case for some people, but I don't think all.

Those of us who lived a spending conscious existence before there was an MMM aren't won over by a guru.  I appreciate Jacob's viewpoints, but he's not exactly charismatic.  Since MMM has gone more mainstream, I actually find Jacob's forum more in line with the way I think, but overall, I'd say that I fall somewhere between ERE and MMM.  I found the early days of this forum more in line with the way I think. 

Now I'm curious to check out LessWrong.  :)

What this thread is helping me understand is that people who use the site for money-saving ideas are intelligently picking and choosing the parts that work for them, while people interested in the philosophy or environmentalism or lifestyle ideas are cult followers.

[Kaspian]

There's an awful lot of "complain-bragging" on this forum....

For the record, "complain-bragging" is one of the most genius terms I've ever heard! 

"Everything was going so well with the savings, but then the transmission on my Lamborghini Reventon gave out and had to be replaced.  FML." 

"I can't believe the price of private schools has gone up so much!  The cost to send our 8-year old Billy is now close to $56,000 a year.  I don't know how we'll ever make ends meet."

Hahaha... Oh, you're such a douche.

[Milizard]

I'm pretty new to this forum, so maybe it's not my place to complain.  But yeah, I've noticed that this forum isn't what I expected of Mustachians. 

I've got an honest question brewing in the back of my mind.  Per MMM, I should try asking the Mustachians on the forum, but I feel like I shouldn't even bother.  Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a full-fledged Mustachian.  I was pretty much born frugal, but I would say I'm only semi-Mustachian.  I'm surrounded by Consuma-suckers everywhere, so to get more of that kind of advice here is useless to me, KWIM?  Maybe it's asking too much, IDK.  I'm not about to start making my own reusable TP, but I really don't want a catheter and bed-pan handed to me here either.  I guess I would rather that I would get advice here that errs on the side of more Mustachian rather than less so.  I can figure out where I will draw my own line, but it's nice to get a nudge to improve.  (I'm trying to ease the thermostat down!) Everywhere else, I get pushed to the other side. (such-and-such is sooo much more convenient!)

[NinetyFour]

I have stopped commenting on most Case Studies because when people can't seem to find a place to save or make excuses for what I consider to be ridiculous spending, I can get bitchy.

On a couple of occasions I've typed out, "Have you even read the blog?" 

I do recognize that people are free to live their own lives and I am free to roll my eyes and move on.

Hi BPA (and anyone else)--

I'd love it if you would take a look at my recent Case Study.  I just added details about my spending so far in 2014 (at the end of the thread).

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/case-study-need-advice-as-i-approach-the-finish-line-thanks!/

Feel free to administer face punches!

Sorry for this thread hijack.

[scrubbyfish]

I've got an honest question brewing in the back of my mind.  Per MMM, I should try asking the Mustachians on the forum, but I feel like I shouldn't even bother.

I think you could get the tougher responses here. I would suggest including in your subject line something like: extreme options wanted... or facepunches wanted..., and then specifying in your post that you want the most extreme views possible.

Some will facepunch for people hiring a nanny, yet most won't facepunch for going ahead with having a kid* (the most unfrugal, unenvironmental thing we can do) in the first place. Some will facepunch for saving 43% when 45% is possible, yet entirely ignore a member choosing to hoard wealth vs donating the excess to alleviate others' suffering. You'll never get a consensus on what is "facepunch worthy", but if you straight out ask for punches and extremes, I think you might well find people here willing to offer those.

* Disclaimer: I am one that took this unfrugal, unenvironmental route myself :)

[Goldielocks]

Y'all have given me the urge to start reading forum posts from the first few months, now!

[Mesmoiselle]

I'm pretty new to this forum, so maybe it's not my place to complain.  But yeah, I've noticed that this forum isn't what I expected of Mustachians. 

I've got an honest question brewing in the back of my mind.  Per MMM, I should try asking the Mustachians on the forum, but I feel like I shouldn't even bother.  Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a full-fledged Mustachian.  I was pretty much born frugal, but I would say I'm only semi-Mustachian.  I'm surrounded by Consuma-suckers everywhere, so to get more of that kind of advice here is useless to me, KWIM?  Maybe it's asking too much, IDK.  I'm not about to start making my own reusable TP, but I really don't want a catheter and bed-pan handed to me here either.  I guess I would rather that I would get advice here that errs on the side of more Mustachian rather than less so.  I can figure out where I will draw my own line, but it's nice to get a nudge to improve.  (I'm trying to ease the thermostat down!) Everywhere else, I get pushed to the other side. (such-and-such is sooo much more convenient!)

I posted my own case study, then got heat for:
an ethical choice
Not profiting "well" off family
my lack of health insurance (very informed short term gamble.)

I got little else from my case study other than a strong urge to get a bike. And yet my bills were still in ridiculous ville. I heard of ERE off this thread, started reading there, and can now see where I could shave off $650. Maybe give that a quick read?


http://earlyretirementextreme.com/frequently-asked-questions

[scrubbyfish]

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/frequently-asked-questions

I just clicked that link (thanks!) -I'm very excited to see that I'm spending about the same as his upper limit! Woo hoo! (And, not having looked at that before, I credit me, this forum, and YNAB for that.)

[Firefly]

Daycare vs. Nannies is not a luxury. I am paying 12% of my take home pay for my kid's daycare it makes perfect financial sense. Now, if someone is thinking about nanny vs. daycare so they have time to go have their nails done and have a martini brunch on their boat while driving to the pier in their third car - that would be a different story.

@Diane C to be fair, people got defensive (myself included) in a thread about Daycare vs. Nannies, not because you offered a third opinion, but because you were passing a judgement.

[Mesmoiselle]

The fact that people keep referencing 1 of the initial handful of examples just points out the over all trend of the discussion in this thread that one person's needed expense is another person's luxury.

I was silly and made my decision for a dog at 14, not considering any of the long term financial responsibility it would entail. I didn't ditch the responsibility, no matter how much it hurt financially. It seems natural to me, and I wouldn't expect people to get rid of their dogs or children if there was financial hardship. I would just expect them not to complain about it. (And I never did on my case study,complain that is. It was just a factor among many regarding my FI goal.)

MMM labels all dogs as "optional luxury companions" and children are just as optional a luxury decision. I even get the implication that he thinks of his own son that way (one of many things he thinks of him. Obviously adores him.) Accidents happen, but for the most part, Birth control is pretty effective. She intentionally got pregnant, and had a child, and now there are expenses that go along with that choice.

That person probably makes a crazy amount of money that I can't fathom and wants to pay my entire month's income to someone to take care of her kid and do light housekeeping. I'm guessing that due to this high income she still manages to come out ahead of this severe expense and so it's worth it in a purely numbers sense. But it ignores the consideration of taking time off and raising the child herself until the child reaches school age simply because of the earning potential being lost. If you're truly wealthy, then why is how much money you would lose a prime consideration?

Therefore, on a forum that is strongly MMM philosophy, I don't understand how they can discuss option A, option B, and never consider any other alternative, of which there could be many. TBH, I only read the NvsD OP and none of the replies. But the OP didn't really sound like they were considering all options, just two very expensive ones.

[scrubbyfish]

Therefore, on a forum that is strongly MMM philosophy, I don't understand how they can discuss option A, option B, and never consider any other alternative, of which there could be many. [...] the OP didn't really sound like they were considering all options, just two very expensive ones.

Something to be mindful of, though:

To keep a topic focused on the matter at hand, many of us will post a very specific question per thread.
This practice is usually intentional, toward the ends of:

• clearly presenting one issue, and
• eliminating red herrings that divert a discussion from the intended topic.

So, when you look at the one thread, you may be seeing only the most recent layer of an issue being explored. For example, that family may have previously explored in their own forum Journal, or in previous threads, or privately at home while watching other people's threads on parenting paths:

• the ramifications of having a kid at all,
• the ramifications of staying at home vs working outside the home,
• etc

...not to mention all sorts of other parenting/care decisions such as opening an education savings plan, cloth vs disposable diapers, private vs public school, best neighbourhoods for kids, and so on.

A well focused thread is usually a very tiny snapshot into one very specific aspect of a poster's larger exploration. To assume that a focused-question post reflects the entirety of a person's explorations would be erroneous in many, many cases.

[ChillPhill]

I agree with the poster who said it appeared these forums are becoming high-income FI'ers patting other high income FI'er on the back. They are losing sight of what the Money Mustache philosophy is all about.

It is about living mindfully, and frugally, to get maximum enjoyment from life while also protecting this planet and its resources for future generations.

To say "I drive 100 miles a day so I can surf," is so contradictory to MMM's philosophy, I don't know where to start. Or to say "I own three jet skis but I bought them used," well, then good for you, but you are NOT embracing the MMM philosophy. As MMM's post said, "It's not just about frugality."

When you can bike to work AND then bike to the beach to surf, then you are living the MMM philosophy. When you SELL your jet ski's and pick up a used kayak that you can use your muscles to explore nearby shorelines, then you are living the MMM philosophy.

And even if you are making $200K, and saving $150K, and then you buy a new Mercedes with cash, then NO you are not living the MMM philosophy. You are a great saver and a successful person, but you are not practicing the MMM philosophy. Nothing wrong with that -- 95% of the people on the planet aren't either. But don't try to bend the MMM philosophy to suit your consumerist tastes.

Sorry to vent...but

[Milizard]

I've got an honest question brewing in the back of my mind.  Per MMM, I should try asking the Mustachians on the forum, but I feel like I shouldn't even bother.

I think you could get the tougher responses here. I would suggest including in your subject line something like: extreme options wanted... or facepunches wanted..., and then specifying in your post that you want the most extreme views possible.

Some will facepunch for people hiring a nanny, yet most won't facepunch for going ahead with having a kid* (the most unfrugal, unenvironmental thing we can do) in the first place. Some will facepunch for saving 43% when 45% is possible, yet entirely ignore a member choosing to hoard wealth vs donating the excess to alleviate others' suffering. You'll never get a consensus on what is "facepunch worthy", but if you straight out ask for punches and extremes, I think you might well find people here willing to offer those.

* Disclaimer: I am one that took this unfrugal, unenvironmental route myself :)

I've got a a couple too.  (Don't even get me started on that topic.  I already contributed by 2 cents on that article.)  ;-)

Maybe I'll try that later.  I don't need extreme advice--my imagination will suffice there.  (Basically, suck it up and DIY, I'm sure.)  What I'm interested in is help with reasoning in figuring out at what point it's okay to throw in the towel and pay for outside help.

[Gray Matter]

I agree with the poster who said it appeared these forums are becoming high-income FI'ers patting other high income FI'er on the back. They are losing sight of what the Money Mustache philosophy is all about.

It is about living mindfully, and frugally, to get maximum enjoyment from life while also protecting this planet and its resources for future generations.
...

And even if you are making $200K, and saving $150K, and then you buy a new Mercedes with cash, then NO you are not living the MMM philosophy. You are a great saver and a successful person, but you are not practicing the MMM philosophy. Nothing wrong with that -- 95% of the people on the planet aren't either. But don't try to bend the MMM philosophy to suit your consumerist tastes.

This is an interesting discussion, and I will admit that while I believe whole-heartedly in the part I bolded above, I have a much harder time living it.  I like my conveniences, I like international travel, I love my drafty old house that leaks heat like a sieve, I get a sense of pride from DIY something once, just to prove I can do it, and then I would be perfectly happy never to do it again.  So, I probably don't belong here, though I can learn a lot from others here.  It is unlikely that I will ever live frugally, but I have moved towards it on the continuum.

As MMM reaches more people, the general tone here will move towards the mean--I think that's inevitable.  And, while it's good that more people are challenging their assumptions, it is also bit of a shame.  I have, at times, felt guilty for watering down MMM, which is why I mostly stick to my journal and don't comment a lot on the other threads.  In benefitting from the MMM philosophy, the last thing I want to do is water it down to the point where it loses what makes it powerful.

[DarinC]

I agree with the poster who said it appeared these forums are becoming high-income FI'ers patting other high income FI'er on the back. They are losing sight of what the Money Mustache philosophy is all about.

It is about living mindfully, and frugally, to get maximum enjoyment from life while also protecting this planet and its resources for future generations.

To say "I drive 100 miles a day so I can surf," is so contradictory to MMM's philosophy, I don't know where to start. Or to say "I own three jet skis but I bought them used," well, then good for you, but you are NOT embracing the MMM philosophy. As MMM's post said, "It's not just about frugality."

When you can bike to work AND then bike to the beach to surf, then you are living the MMM philosophy. When you SELL your jet ski's and pick up a used kayak that you can use your muscles to explore nearby shorelines, then you are living the MMM philosophy.

And even if you are making $200K, and saving $150K, and then you buy a new Mercedes with cash, then NO you are not living the MMM philosophy. You are a great saver and a successful person, but you are not practicing the MMM philosophy. Nothing wrong with that -- 95% of the people on the planet aren't either. But don't try to bend the MMM philosophy to suit your consumerist tastes.

Sorry to vent...but

I disagree b/c I think MMM'ing is about changes in a lifestyle rather than a hard line between what's MMM and what isn't. If someone goes from buying a Mercedes SUV on credit to buying a diesel sedan with cash, then I think that's a Mustachian move.

Is it optimally Mustachian? No, but few things are. It's about improving yourself and your environment, not calling other people out b/c they aren't MMM enough.

[Gin1984]

I lived in the bay area without a car and did fine.  Now I live in buffalo and the public transportation system is awful and the area is not safe.  It would be like going through Oakland.  Often times that is not the safest idea.  I still did it some, once but with a kid, no way.  And that is nice thing about personal finance, we share ideas and then do what works for us.  Why do we have to pull others down?

[BPA]

I'm pretty new to this forum, so maybe it's not my place to complain.  But yeah, I've noticed that this forum isn't what I expected of Mustachians. 

I've got an honest question brewing in the back of my mind.  Per MMM, I should try asking the Mustachians on the forum, but I feel like I shouldn't even bother.  Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a full-fledged Mustachian.  I was pretty much born frugal, but I would say I'm only semi-Mustachian.  I'm surrounded by Consuma-suckers everywhere, so to get more of that kind of advice here is useless to me, KWIM?  Maybe it's asking too much, IDK.  I'm not about to start making my own reusable TP, but I really don't want a catheter and bed-pan handed to me here either.  I guess I would rather that I would get advice here that errs on the side of more Mustachian rather than less so.  I can figure out where I will draw my own line, but it's nice to get a nudge to improve.  (I'm trying to ease the thermostat down!) Everywhere else, I get pushed to the other side. (such-and-such is sooo much more convenient!)

I posted my own case study, then got heat for:
an ethical choice
Not profiting "well" off family
my lack of health insurance (very informed short term gamble.)

I got little else from my case study other than a strong urge to get a bike. And yet my bills were still in ridiculous ville. I heard of ERE off this thread, started reading there, and can now see where I could shave off $650. Maybe give that a quick read?


http://earlyretirementextreme.com/frequently-asked-questions

In all fairness, you asked if people thought you could reach FI in less than 11 years while you were spending much of your income on pets, providing $1k a month in retirement funds for siblings who should be able to do it for themselves, as well as the health insurance thing.

Make whatever decisions you like, but if you make decisions like the ones you posted above and then ask the forum for what you could do to reach FI faster, you are going to get answers like the ones you got. 

I like your mostly forthright manner, but you are not telling even close to the full story when you post threads like this one.  You seem to cherry pick what you will mention in a given thread so that you get the answer you want.  And then you get defensive about the responses you receive. 

If you are asking What Would MMM Do?  Well, he wouldn't be providing future income for siblings who should be able to do that for themselves.  He isn't even doing that for his son.  He wouldn't spend $10k on an ill pet.  He doesn't even have pets. He has health insurance. 

Make your own decisions, but don't get pissed off when you post here and don't like the responses you get.

Edit: changed "himself" to "his son."

[MKinVA]

Everyone takes and gives from/to the forum based on their own circumstances and point of view. People come here for support and to give advice and to get a different point of view when trying to figure out for themselves a path toward freedom. Some people here could never be happy living as MMM does. Some of us have family and friends all over the planet we enjoy seeing. It makes our life happy and worth living. MMM doesn't seem to value that unless he can sponge a freebie couch surfing in return for some carpentry work. Other people could face punch him silly. Some might say that kid of his is a waste of money and resources. There are enough people on the planet already. He built a house on raw land (the one he rented and then I think sold). What a waste! There are so many housing units available in this country, people just want their own special, just for me spot. Building a house from scratch is the opposite of environmentally friendly. And living in Longmont? Really? Living in a place that's cold and a waste of fossil fuels just because you are a hipster who wants to travel by bike? We used to go to Austin to hang with people like him. Now it's too crowded to ride your bike.

So, really, people should come here for what helps and if it doesn't suit you, find another forum...or two.

[MoneyCat]

Slightly off topic, but one of the things that throws me off on this forum is how many people are diligently toiling away with really low incomes (like say, anything less than $100k).

Ai Carumba!  And here's me making $86K thinking I was doing fairly well.  Damn, I'm "really low"?  That means the average American is in the poorhouse.

I'm with you on this.  You know all those threads about "privilege"?  Someone who believes that anything below $100k is "low income" needs to check their privilege.  And maybe leave their gated community a little more often.

Some people are way to caught up in MMM and his system.  This isn't a religion and you can do whatever the heck you want.
Its not like MMM is the first person to ever live below his means.


Its all when broken down about living below your means in extreme ways so that you can retire at a much earlier age than say
65 or older.

Some people don't want to live on 20k a year…. personally I don't want do to this and I don't hate my job that much that
I want to retire before I am 35.

and to the person that says making below 100k is a low income….gtfo the avg income in this nation is like 40k if that.

The average American spends tons of money on vehicles, drives to work, eats out multiple times per week, is afraid of the stock market, and has some negligible amount of savings, probably less than $1,000, and will never be financially independent, or at least not until old age.

If you're planning to become financially independent at a young age, you need to be a lot better than average.

The MMM philosophy is not about being average.

It's a privilege to have a high income just like it's a privilege to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings, or millions of dollars in savings, or whatever your goal is.

If somebody said they just can't get ahead and save money because they have to buy cars, have to eat out, have to have $100 phone bills, have to buy coffee every day when free coffee is available at work, it would be fair to call them a complainypants, even though the average American is similar.

If you are happy earning a lot less money than you could, that's fine, but you could be earning a lot more than the average American if you wanted. The average American is very bad at finances.

I also find that most people with much lower income than me spend a lot more money than me, despite all the complaints about allegedly non-frugal high income people in this thread. For instance, I've never owned a vehicle, but the vast majority of low income people in the USA and on this forum own a vehicle.

     Well, it's clear from what you say that you are a pretty special person.  Congratulations on your success!  Now, let's discuss what you said.
     Yes, people spend too much money, especially on worthless stupid crap.  This is a problem with almost everyone in the USA or MMM wouldn't have a blog like this.  However, to say that the reason everyone isn't earning six figures is because of their spending makes absolutely no sense.  There are tens of millions of jobs in the USA that need to be done but will never earn a six figure income.  Take a look at census figures and you'll realize how special you are (and how special my family is) to earn six figures.  It is rare.  The average family works full-time and makes around $40,000 a year.  People with lower incomes can still FIRE, because people can live on very little money if they learn more skills.  Not everyone can be an engineer or doctor and not everyone should have those jobs.  Not everyone has the aptitude to work a high-paying job.  That's life.  There are some people in this country who live extremely easy lives and because their lives are so easy they don't understand how anyone could ever have any kind of trouble.  That's why I say those people should get out a little more, so they can learn about these things.
     

[Terrestrial]

It should also be noted that the six-figure income comment came from someone living in the SF peninsula, literally one of if not the highest wage location in the country, and certainly one of the most expensive.

I'm not trying to be flippant when I say...100k is a pretty average/plebeian salary in the peninsula....not bad, not great.  Everybody I know except for a couple of teachers that live there make around that much or more (some MUCH more), and they cover a pretty broad spectrum of professions in their 30's-40's.  The teachers aren't even that far off...60-80k.  Yes the people I know are all 'educated' type professions (not working at McDonalds)...but for most people that salary level is not 'special' in that area of the country.  My company hires professionals in the peninsula that only have a few years experience for darn near 100k and we're not even the tech industry.

Context matters....alot.  100k where I live will let you live like the top 10-20% of people in the city and is a legitimately 'good' salary.  100k in the peninsula isn't enough income to buy a decent condo in large swaths of it and you can probably throw a rock at a rando on the street and hit someone that makes that much.

[Gin1984]

However, to say that the reason everyone isn't earning six figures is because of their spending makes absolutely no sense.

That clearly isn't what I said or meant.

What I said is that average people are bad at finances. Being bad at finances includes both spending too much and not earning enough. They are two sides of the same coin of "financial skill", unless done voluntarily (i.e. somebody who voluntarily chooses not to earn much).

The fact that there are many low paying jobs out there that "have to be filled" doesn't really matter, because average people can take those jobs. You don't need to be average if you don't want to be.

I would also say that, yes, everybody can be an engineer -- or at least, everybody above average. The nature of engineering is that it creates value where there was none before, especially software engineering. That creation of value can then be re-invested into more jobs. In other words, the more people who work as engineers, the more engineering jobs there will be. In the limit, all "low-skill" jobs will eventually be eliminated, but there will be an ever-increasing number of engineering jobs. So it's not unreasonable to say that everybody could be an engineer.

I don't want to be an engineer, I want to be a research scientist.  Yes, I get paid pennies but I'm happy.  I don't have to wait till I am FIREd to be happy.  That does not mean I don't want financial independence, I do.  But I am going to be happy getting there, not just once I am there.  And yes, that means spending money in ways other don't like/needed.

[MayDay]

Slightly off topic, but one of the things that throws me off on this forum is how many people are diligently toiling away with really low incomes (like say, anything less than $100k).

Ai Carumba!  And here's me making $86K thinking I was doing fairly well.  Damn, I'm "really low"?  That means the average American is in the poorhouse.

I'm with you on this.  You know all those threads about "privilege"?  Someone who believes that anything below $100k is "low income" needs to check their privilege.  And maybe leave their gated community a little more often.

This needs a million likes.