Author Topic: What do you tell your child about santa?  (Read 8569 times)

Cassie

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2019, 01:00:34 AM »
My kids were taught not to spill the beans as they had younger siblings. They enjoyed being part of in the know.

Car Jack

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2019, 09:25:16 AM »
Just remember that moving one letter in Santa and you have Satan!  Coincidence?  Wearing that blazing red suit and breaking into people's homes at night like a burglar?

So sure.  Kids get all excited for years about Santa leaving presents.  How will they learn that Santa ain't real?  Will that be traumatizing? 

Figure it out yourself....I don't know.

frugalnacho

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2019, 10:25:32 AM »
Kids get all excited for years about Santa leaving presents.

I have a sneaking suspicion it's the presents themselves and has nothing to do with santa.

savedandsaving

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2019, 01:32:07 PM »
OP, I know others have said it, but as a devout Christian I feel compelled to note that belief in Santa & belief in the God of the Bible are vastly different...the first and main difference being that a relationship with God isn't at all performative or fearful. But I know my view is biased, of course :)

Towards your question: since I was raised in a superChristian household, my parents never talked about Santa or suggested he was real when I was little, so I knew it from the start. It never robbed the season of magic for me. To this day, it's my favorite time of year and it makes me giddy. My parents actually progressed the opposite way--as my brother and I got older (teens), they started to slip extra presents under the tree that were "from Santa" just to play with us. It became a family joke that we all enjoy to this day.

If you're squeamish about lying to your kids, it's for a reason! Trust your gut :)

DadJokes

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2019, 09:02:03 AM »
OP, I know others have said it, but as a devout Christian I feel compelled to note that belief in Santa & belief in the God of the Bible are vastly different...the first and main difference being that a relationship with God isn't at all performative or fearful. But I know my view is biased, of course :)

Towards your question: since I was raised in a superChristian household, my parents never talked about Santa or suggested he was real when I was little, so I knew it from the start. It never robbed the season of magic for me. To this day, it's my favorite time of year and it makes me giddy. My parents actually progressed the opposite way--as my brother and I got older (teens), they started to slip extra presents under the tree that were "from Santa" just to play with us. It became a family joke that we all enjoy to this day.

If you're squeamish about lying to your kids, it's for a reason! Trust your gut :)

Except for the bit about eternal damnation in Hell if you don't follow the rules- at least Santa limits the punishment to a lump of coal

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2019, 09:25:12 AM »
OP, I know others have said it, but as a devout Christian I feel compelled to note that belief in Santa & belief in the God of the Bible are vastly different...the first and main difference being that a relationship with God isn't at all performative or fearful. But I know my view is biased, of course :)

Towards your question: since I was raised in a superChristian household, my parents never talked about Santa or suggested he was real when I was little, so I knew it from the start. It never robbed the season of magic for me. To this day, it's my favorite time of year and it makes me giddy. My parents actually progressed the opposite way--as my brother and I got older (teens), they started to slip extra presents under the tree that were "from Santa" just to play with us. It became a family joke that we all enjoy to this day.

If you're squeamish about lying to your kids, it's for a reason! Trust your gut :)

Except for the bit about eternal damnation in Hell if you don't follow the rules- at least Santa limits the punishment to a lump of coal

Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

jamesbond007

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2019, 09:30:37 AM »
I told my daughter that Santa is pretend and daddy and mommy are working hard to buy gifts for her. She never bothered to ask about Santa after that. She was 2.

FINate

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2019, 09:45:02 AM »
Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

Without going into the weeds on this, it's not as sticky of a theological problem as is often presented. Certainly is not limited to the two options presented here, at least not within the bulk of Christianity.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2019, 10:37:15 AM »
Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

Without going into the weeds on this, it's not as sticky of a theological problem as is often presented. Certainly is not limited to the two options presented here, at least not within the bulk of Christianity.

Are you talking about the whole 'free will to choose your path' chestnut?  That one never stands up to scrutiny.  If God is all powerful, he knows what the eventual outcome of all events will be.  That means that there's really no such thing as free will.  He can give the illusion of choice, but always knows what the final outcome will be . . . so, God is a dick for allowing you to make the bad choice that he knows will happen.  If God isn't all powerful, then we can have free will . . . but we've just argued that God isn't all-powerful.

Or the argument that God only gives us as much pain as we can handle?  (God's an all-powerful dick.)

Or the non-argument of "Shut up!  Just 'cause!" that incorporates the whole 'works in mysterious ways' / 'we are not meant to know God's mind' line of anti-reasoning?

I'd argue that all logically developed arguments regarding "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" eventually boil down to one of two things.  Either God is an all-powerful dick, or He's not all-powerful.

DadJokes

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2019, 11:59:44 AM »
Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

Without going into the weeds on this, it's not as sticky of a theological problem as is often presented. Certainly is not limited to the two options presented here, at least not within the bulk of Christianity.

Are you talking about the whole 'free will to choose your path' chestnut?  That one never stands up to scrutiny.  If God is all powerful, he knows what the eventual outcome of all events will be.  That means that there's really no such thing as free will.  He can give the illusion of choice, but always knows what the final outcome will be . . . so, God is a dick for allowing you to make the bad choice that he knows will happen.  If God isn't all powerful, then we can have free will . . . but we've just argued that God isn't all-powerful.

Or the argument that God only gives us as much pain as we can handle?  (God's an all-powerful dick.)

Or the non-argument of "Shut up!  Just 'cause!" that incorporates the whole 'works in mysterious ways' / 'we are not meant to know God's mind' line of anti-reasoning?

I'd argue that all logically developed arguments regarding "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" eventually boil down to one of two things.  Either God is an all-powerful dick, or He's not all-powerful.

Since this thread has been thoroughly derailed...

I brought up this point (without trying to be a dick) to a friend, using starvation and genocide in Africa as an example. He pointed to John 9, where Jesus' disciples asked him why a man was born blind. Jesus' answer was that the man was blind so that the works of God could be displayed in him.

That explains why one man was blind. It does diddly to explain why anyone else was blind or starving or suffering in any way when Jesus didn't heal them. The suffering is supposed to be there in order to bring glory to God, but what glory has been brought by the millions who have lived a life of suffering?

[/soapbox]

FINate

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2019, 01:07:42 PM »
Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

Without going into the weeds on this, it's not as sticky of a theological problem as is often presented. Certainly is not limited to the two options presented here, at least not within the bulk of Christianity.

Are you talking about the whole 'free will to choose your path' chestnut?  That one never stands up to scrutiny.  If God is all powerful, he knows what the eventual outcome of all events will be.  That means that there's really no such thing as free will.  He can give the illusion of choice, but always knows what the final outcome will be . . . so, God is a dick for allowing you to make the bad choice that he knows will happen.  If God isn't all powerful, then we can have free will . . . but we've just argued that God isn't all-powerful.

Or the argument that God only gives us as much pain as we can handle?  (God's an all-powerful dick.)

Or the non-argument of "Shut up!  Just 'cause!" that incorporates the whole 'works in mysterious ways' / 'we are not meant to know God's mind' line of anti-reasoning?

I'd argue that all logically developed arguments regarding "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" eventually boil down to one of two things.  Either God is an all-powerful dick, or He's not all-powerful.

I believe this is a sincere question/discussion, so this is in the spirit of trying to provide an honest response. Not trying to win anyone over, just want to try and explain it to the best of my ability (which, admittedly, is lacking). I doubt we'll agree on this, all I ask for is mutual respect and a willingness to agree to disagree.

Christianity by and large (though there is a lot of variation) does not ascribe to a good vs. bad dualism. That is, good does not depend on bad, this is not like a yang thing. So the proper starting place is not to ask "why is there bad in the world?" but rather "why does good exist?" We live in an amazing universe that is dangerous and chaotic, yet here we are on this little spec of dust which is an explosion of awesomeness and goodness. Life flourishes, there's an amazing regularity in how the natural world functions, the coming and going of seasons, variety of life and ecosystems. There is immense beauty and love. These are all incredible things, but why do they exist at all? There's something in the Christian understanding of the divine as a plural unity, something about the liminality (or in-betweeness) of the Godhead, such that the very nature of God is other centered. This other-centeredness is the scriptural understanding of love, which isn't about mere sentimentality, but rather focus on others over self, even if costly. So in this sense the divine is an eternal community of love, a divine cosmic dance. It's out of this outgoing love that all of existence flows and is held together. And it's out of this inherent otherness that God created other beings, both spiritual and physical, to share in his reign and rule. This includes delegating real authority, and even allowing others to chose bad for themselves and others. I get where God allowing other beings to chose bad can be seen as offensive, but if God is going to create real authentic "others" that are not strict automatons then it's part of the deal. Yes, the bad that these beings chose leads to death. In fact, death itself is used by evil as a weapon, which itself is part of the story of scripture, with God choosing to become the unity of heaven and earth in the person of Jesus and then allowing an evil empire exhaust the fullness of its power in his crucifixion. If death were the end of the story, then this would be a tragedy, but this is the importance of the resurrection in Christian theology. It is love defeating the power of death, and the scriptural hope for the future, of resurrection and the union of all heaven and earth, where justice prevails in the end and evil is dealt with once and for all. As for the details of how this all works out...there are many different traditions and streams withing the faith that each have their own ideas. For me, I would just say I don't know and I think much of the speculation is unhelpful and a distraction because I don't think scriptures fills in many the details (and maybe that's the point).

Again, I expect we'll continue to disagree on this. I understand if you still think this makes God a dick. I just see it from a different perspective.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2019, 02:04:10 PM »
Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

Without going into the weeds on this, it's not as sticky of a theological problem as is often presented. Certainly is not limited to the two options presented here, at least not within the bulk of Christianity.

Are you talking about the whole 'free will to choose your path' chestnut?  That one never stands up to scrutiny.  If God is all powerful, he knows what the eventual outcome of all events will be.  That means that there's really no such thing as free will.  He can give the illusion of choice, but always knows what the final outcome will be . . . so, God is a dick for allowing you to make the bad choice that he knows will happen.  If God isn't all powerful, then we can have free will . . . but we've just argued that God isn't all-powerful.

Or the argument that God only gives us as much pain as we can handle?  (God's an all-powerful dick.)

Or the non-argument of "Shut up!  Just 'cause!" that incorporates the whole 'works in mysterious ways' / 'we are not meant to know God's mind' line of anti-reasoning?

I'd argue that all logically developed arguments regarding "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" eventually boil down to one of two things.  Either God is an all-powerful dick, or He's not all-powerful.

I believe this is a sincere question/discussion, so this is in the spirit of trying to provide an honest response. Not trying to win anyone over, just want to try and explain it to the best of my ability (which, admittedly, is lacking). I doubt we'll agree on this, all I ask for is mutual respect and a willingness to agree to disagree.

Christianity by and large (though there is a lot of variation) does not ascribe to a good vs. bad dualism. That is, good does not depend on bad, this is not like a yang thing. So the proper starting place is not to ask "why is there bad in the world?" but rather "why does good exist?" We live in an amazing universe that is dangerous and chaotic, yet here we are on this little spec of dust which is an explosion of awesomeness and goodness. Life flourishes, there's an amazing regularity in how the natural world functions, the coming and going of seasons, variety of life and ecosystems. There is immense beauty and love. These are all incredible things, but why do they exist at all?

This is a fun question to ask, but unrelated to the theological problem that we were discussing.


There's something in the Christian understanding of the divine as a plural unity, something about the liminality (or in-betweeness) of the Godhead, such that the very nature of God is other centered. This other-centeredness is the scriptural understanding of love, which isn't about mere sentimentality, but rather focus on others over self, even if costly. So in this sense the divine is an eternal community of love, a divine cosmic dance. It's out of this outgoing love that all of existence flows and is held together. And it's out of this inherent otherness that God created other beings, both spiritual and physical, to share in his reign and rule.

This is why I always had trouble with the concept of hell when I was attending church.  If God is all loving (and as you said, shows this love by focusing on others over self) . . . how could God sit by and watch the people he loves being tormented for eternity?



This includes delegating real authority, and even allowing others to chose bad for themselves and others.

This is the argument I alluded to above then, the 'free will' response.


I get where God allowing other beings to chose bad can be seen as offensive, but if God is going to create real authentic "others" that are not strict automatons then it's part of the deal. Yes, the bad that these beings chose leads to death.

Here's where stuff starts to break down with this response, which pushes it into the 'God is a dick' side of things.

God loves people enough to let them choose what they do for themselves.  OK, cool.  Sounds innocuous on the surface.  But God also allows these people to take away the ability to choose from others.  For example, the father who keeps his daugher tied up in his basement . . . regularly raping her and forcing her to have abortion after abortion.  I can (kinda maybe) get the concept of loving the father so much that you let him choose his actions.  But I don't understand how a loving God could allow that to happen to the daughter.  Effectively, God is choosing to allow the father to have free will over allowing the daughter to have free will at any point in her life.  That's a dick move any way you parse it.

But OK.  Let's ignore that for a moment.  Why does God create people without the capacity to think and reason?  There are many people born every day who don't have the capability to choose because they become brain damaged.  That would seem to fly in the face of the argument that God allows people to choose their own path - why is He removing choice from these people?  Did He not love them as much?  Did he not trust the choices He knew they would make?  I can't think of an answer that doesn't lead to God playing favorites (and therefore being a bit of a dick).

Alright, let's ignore that for a moment and zoom out to the big picture.  An all powerful God knows everything that was and everything that will be.  Which means that we might think we have free will and are making our own choices, but God knows what the outcome will be before we choose.  He controls all the variables that impact our decisions . . . which means that he chooses to let us make the wrong decision every time.  Again . . . kinda a dick move.


Again, I expect we'll continue to disagree on this. I understand if you still think this makes God a dick. I just see it from a different perspective.

FTR - I don't think that God is a dick in a malicious way.  I think that if a God exists, this God is unconcerned with what human beings do.  There's plenty of beauty and complexity in the universe . . . but nothing in the natural world that has ever indicated to me that the creator of the universe is particularly in love with this one species on this one rock in this one corner of the galaxy.  Seems like anthropomorphic tinged hubris to assume that the creator of everything would be overly concerned about the actions of humans.

That said, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me.

FINate

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2019, 06:39:03 PM »
This is why I always had trouble with the concept of hell when I was attending church.  If God is all loving (and as you said, shows this love by focusing on others over self) . . . how could God sit by and watch the people he loves being tormented for eternity?

Agree. Our concept of hell carries a lot of baggage from medieval and pagan imagery, along with a misunderstanding of Jewish apocalyptic literature, which is clearly the genre that the Revelation falls under (hint: it's not about the end of the world). The word rendered 'hell' in English is 'Gehenna' in the original text, which itself is a transliteration of Hebrew for the Valley of Ben Hinnom. In the most literal sense, hell is a valley outside Jerusalem. Understanding the history and significance of that place gives a much better idea of what it's really about. The overall narrative arch of scripture is about heaven and earth being reunited and has very little to say about Gehenna, yet for some curious reason many Americans are obsessed with hell. To be clear, I'm not a universalist. On the spectrum of views the topic I'm probably what would be considered an agnostic optimist: I don't believe anyone will end up in Gehenna by mistake or because they had a misunderstanding or whatever, but I also don't think God will force people to chose life. In his love he will let people chose Gehenna if that is what they desire. In other words, I think it's possible to nurture a self-centered nature (as C.S. Lewis described it, the inward bend) to the point that one creates something like a black hole that nothing can escape. And I think this can happen this side of eternity - people can and do create their own hell, just as the ancient Israelites did at Gehenna.

But I think I've digressed enough. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

partgypsy

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2019, 07:05:41 PM »
We played along for santa (tho forget elf on a shelf, that's plain creepy), but I tried never to actually lie about santa. I would answer honestly to the questions but not give my opinion. So, both my kids believed in santa. It was fun. They wanted to make cookies to make sure we had some, carrots for the reindeer, etc. When my oldest started asking more pointed questions, we talked about the history of saint Nicholas, and also the tradition of secret Santas who pay people's bills at Kmart, and the gift of the magi, and what the spirit of Christmas is, that it can be more fun to give and see the joy that brings. Anyways I think any sting of betrayal was softened by if they looked back, we never did say that "Santa exists". But it definitely added to the magic of the season.  But yeah, one of the things that made them question Santa was, why did some kids who were poor but still good, not get gifts from santa. Which naturally segued in that everyone can have the spirit of Christmas, and be santa. Their school had a giving tree so those years we would pick a family to be santa for. Now each year we give to either the heifer fund or rainforest trust, and everyone in the family chips in. eta my neice is a vegetarian and would never do something like Heifer fund, which is not appropriate for all areas. This is an alternative charity to fight hunger https://awellfedworld.org/gifts/
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 10:03:26 AM by partgypsy »

savedandsaving

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2019, 08:41:10 AM »
Oh, wow. Quite some replies to log back in to! Sorry, all--I truly truly didn't mean to derail things. (FINate and I disagree on some of the minutiae, but they made some great points. If anyone would ever like to not-derail a topic and talk about theological concepts, you're welcome to PM me anytime, assuming that's allowed.)

OP, my points about Santa still apply!

ncornilsen

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2019, 10:45:43 AM »
I make sure the know the whole story about santa, and his other cohorts.  I will make sure they hear a first hand account.

https://youtu.be/lo8ZgNws504

wellactually

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2019, 11:57:20 AM »
My parents explicitly did not do Santa with me and my older siblings. They basically reasoned as some previous posters have that it would be weird to lie about fake-Santa while also teaching us about real-baby Jesus. None of us ever spilled the beans and we really didn't even pretend. There were no santa gifts, no making cookies. We didn't pretend for the Easter Bunny either. We did put our lost teeth under our pillows, but knew the "tooth fairy" was our parents. Honestly, it wasn't until I was a teen that I found out some people actually believed in an Easter Bunny.

That said, we had tons of family traditions around the holidays. We always made sugar cookies and decorated them for xmas, we spent xmas eve driving around looking at the lights and then coming home and opening stockings. We did several activities related to giving back. I distinctly remember shopping for gifts for children whose parents were incarcerated at xmas. We decorated easter eggs and got baskets and did an egg hunt. My mom even always made us cupcakes on our half-birthdays. I certainly didn't feel like I missed out.

As for plans with my own family, my husband initially was adamant that we do Santa. We're now expecting and he gets less and less enthused about it. While I'd prefer to avoid it completely, the key for me is not over-doing anything. Kids are honestly really easily impressed and excited. But once you start a big to-do, the expectations grow. A tradition as simple as making waffles for dinner with hot chocolate for dessert while watching A Charlie Brown Christmas can still feel magical.

MrsPennyPincher

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2019, 06:02:50 PM »
We always treated Santa like a pretend play character. DS used to write a letter to Santa, but I think he always knew that Santa is really us. Same with the tooth fairy. It’s nice to have a bit of magic in life, but no need to overdo it to make kids *really* believe

mastrr

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2019, 07:39:30 PM »
Depends on the Christian religion you belong to.  Not all of them believe in Hell or the devil.

It's actually kinda a sticky question in theology.  If God is all powerful, then he's directly causing all the bad things in the world to happen - which makes Him kind of a dick.  If Satan exists, then God doesn't have to be the cause of bad things . . . but it also means that there's an evil force of equal power to God . . . so God can't be all-powerful.

Without going into the weeds on this, it's not as sticky of a theological problem as is often presented. Certainly is not limited to the two options presented here, at least not within the bulk of Christianity.


I'd argue that all logically developed arguments regarding "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" eventually boil down to one of two things.  Either God is an all-powerful dick, or He's not all-powerful.

An all powerful God can pull a greater good from bad things happening.  Overcoming adversity, suffering, experiencing bad things is essential to be able to improve/experience joy & accomplishment/become more holy.

If we never experienced bad things and were 100% happy all the time we'd essentially become robots and be lukewarm in our endeavors at best as there would be no point to try and improve.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 05:35:51 AM by mastrr »

mastrr

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2019, 07:57:36 PM »

I get where God allowing other beings to chose bad can be seen as offensive, but if God is going to create real authentic "others" that are not strict automatons then it's part of the deal. Yes, the bad that these beings chose leads to death.

Here's where stuff starts to break down with this response, which pushes it into the 'God is a dick' side of things.

God loves people enough to let them choose what they do for themselves.  OK, cool.  Sounds innocuous on the surface.  But God also allows these people to take away the ability to choose from others.  For example, the father who keeps his daugher tied up in his basement . . . regularly raping her and forcing her to have abortion after abortion.  I can (kinda maybe) get the concept of loving the father so much that you let him choose his actions.  But I don't understand how a loving God could allow that to happen to the daughter.  Effectively, God is choosing to allow the father to have free will over allowing the daughter to have free will at any point in her life.  That's a dick move any way you parse it.

But OK.  Let's ignore that for a moment.  Why does God create people without the capacity to think and reason?  There are many people born every day who don't have the capability to choose because they become brain damaged.  That would seem to fly in the face of the argument that God allows people to choose their own path - why is He removing choice from these people?  Did He not love them as much?  Did he not trust the choices He knew they would make?  I can't think of an answer that doesn't lead to God playing favorites (and therefore being a bit of a dick).

Alright, let's ignore that for a moment and zoom out to the big picture.  An all powerful God knows everything that was and everything that will be.  Which means that we might think we have free will and are making our own choices, but God knows what the outcome will be before we choose.  He controls all the variables that impact our decisions . . . which means that he chooses to let us make the wrong decision every time.  Again . . . kinda a dick move.


Although I'm not a Calvanist, my understanding is that there view of salvation is similar to what you mentioned as they believe in predestination.

Free Will has been highly debated and my belief is that God gives us the necessary grace to act in alignment with his will but we have the choice to accept or reject it.

The goal isn't to not suffer in this life but to achieve ever lasting life in the kingdom of heaven.  Also, God has mercy on those without the ability to make choices.

jamesbond007

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Re: What do you tell your child about santa?
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2019, 10:22:49 AM »
Ya'll talking like Jesus is the only God. 6 Billion non-Christians are deeply upset. lol.