Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness

[ender]

I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

I'm reading this as, "why don't kids just have good parents? Then they won't ever make mistakes!"

Let me go back to the parent selection part of my life journey and make sure to pick ones with good financial sense who are willing to be engaged in my life.

I really shouldn't even complain, my parents stayed married and made decent income, so I still won the lottery there (even though we had zero conversations around this topic when I went to college). Even with above average parents I still consider myself incredibly lucky I didn't end up in major student loan debt. It certainly wasn't for any decision making process I did or help from my parents.

Tying $100k of debt to "did you pick the right parents?" feels... well, off.

Not to mention how much worse it often is for first generation college students who have minimal actual guidance from parents on this other than "go to college."

[Ecky]

I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

I'm reading this as, "why don't kids just have good parents? Then they won't ever make mistakes!"

Let me go back to the parent selection part of my life journey and make sure to pick ones with good financial sense who are willing to be engaged in my life.

I really shouldn't even complain, my parents stayed married and made decent income, so I still won the lottery there (even though we had zero conversations around this topic when I went to college). Even with above average parents I still consider myself incredibly lucky I didn't end up in major student loan debt. It certainly wasn't for any decision making process I did or help from my parents.

Tying $100k of debt to "did you pick the right parents?" feels... well, off.

Not to mention how much worse it often is for first generation college students who have minimal actual guidance from parents on this other than "go to college."

In my case I was a first-generation college grad, child of an abusive alcoholic single mother. When I turned 18 and had a path out of the torture chamber I grew up in, I signed my name on the dotted line.

Needless to say, I was not prepared for college, and I did not have any financial education. My mother knew nothing about finances and the advice she did give me was egregious. It's a wonder I only came out of it with $140,000 and a bachelor's I don't use.

Your point is well made. Certainly, I had agency, but there's a hierarchy, and my concerns at the time were not about optimizing my monetary situation in the far future.

[Scandium]

I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

I'm reading this as, "why don't kids just have good parents? Then they won't ever make mistakes!"

Let me go back to the parent selection part of my life journey and make sure to pick ones with good financial sense who are willing to be engaged in my life.

I really shouldn't even complain, my parents stayed married and made decent income, so I still won the lottery there (even though we had zero conversations around this topic when I went to college). Even with above average parents I still consider myself incredibly lucky I didn't end up in major student loan debt. It certainly wasn't for any decision making process I did or help from my parents.

Tying $100k of debt to "did you pick the right parents?" feels... well, off.

Not to mention how much worse it often is for first generation college students who have minimal actual guidance from parents on this other than "go to college."

But then this logic applies to everything then. Got a car loan you can't afford? Bad parents. Bought a house that's too big? Bad parents. Though not necessarily wrong, at some point shouldn't we instead focus on the core lack of education /guidance issue? Rather than forgive the loans of, not just the people who made poor choices, but every single person with student debt? If it is being talked about better college guidance and prep, I have not heard much about that.

Secondly; I have no doubt some receive poor advice from their parents, but they way it's being told almost every single person with student debt is some poor victim who didn't know better. I refuse to believe there are that many people out there (who managed to get into college!) with awful parets. Kids with the worst parents usually don't get to college at all.

Actually; thirdly. I went to college in a country with "free college", but I still got debt of about $30,000 for living expenses. About the median in the US. I support free public colleges, it's idiotic not to, but it will still cost, there will still be debt.

Rather than forgive outright I think the government should take over the debt and set the interest at the long term treasury rate. Then have a program of forgiveness for needy situations or something.

[ysette9]

What a lot of people didn’t realize was that for my parents’ generation a college degree (any college degree) set you apart and was a good investment as college back then was pretty dang affordable. So the advice they would likely be giving was “go for it!” because that had been their experience. They didn’t necessarily know that a college degree is worth a lot less now in terms of distinguishing yourself from the pack at the same time the price went up significantly relative to inflation and wages.

What I got from my educated, middle-class parents was that college was good and trying to minimize costs was good. But th et didn’t have much clue about what major to steer us into nor helped us make the connection between major choice and future career earnings. If my college educated parents didn’t do that I am not at all surprised that many others didn’t get the perfect advice necessary to make a complex cost/benefit analysis for the rest of their adult life at age 18.

[JGS1980]

But then this logic applies to everything then. Got a car loan you can't afford? Bad parents. Bought a house that's too big? Bad parents. Though not necessarily wrong, at some point shouldn't we instead focus on the core lack of education /guidance issue? Rather than forgive the loans of, not just the people who made poor choices, but every single person with student debt? If it is being talked about better college guidance and prep, I have not heard much about that.

Fancy new car that you can't afford -> REPO Man

Can't make the payments on the house -> Foreclosure

Got a worthless expensive education -> ???

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

In regards to "bad parents", I wouldn't say most parents are bad, they are just misinformed and/or financially unsophisticated (aka; suckers to be squeezed by the education industrial complex)

[chemistk]

But then this logic applies to everything then. Got a car loan you can't afford? Bad parents. Bought a house that's too big? Bad parents. Though not necessarily wrong, at some point shouldn't we instead focus on the core lack of education /guidance issue? Rather than forgive the loans of, not just the people who made poor choices, but every single person with student debt? If it is being talked about better college guidance and prep, I have not heard much about that.

Fancy new car that you can't afford -> REPO Man

Can't make the payments on the house -> Foreclosure

Got a worthless expensive education -> ???

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

In regards to "bad parents", I wouldn't say most parents are bad, they are just misinformed and/or financially unsophisticated (aka; suckers to be squeezed by the education industrial complex)

+1

Also, because the first counterargument to the bolded line is going to be "then, those kids should seek alternatives to the standard higher education track", my preemptive response/addendum to your comment is that before anyone just assumes that those kids should seek alternative paths, the reality is that so many jobs today use a 4-yr degree as the minimum requirement. The qualifications and experience come second, and many HR automated screening systems will automatically reject applicants without the relevant degree regardless of what the degree is.

The solution is not to create a self-selecting feedback look that only rewards those who can afford to go to school. Systemic biases against undereducated, lower income, and minority populations are real and forcing the issue to the market is not the solution. But in the context of the thread, neither is SLF in any capacity.

[GuitarStv]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

[JGS1980]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

I'm now very confused (more so than usual). Guitar, have you heard of any colleges revoking their degrees?

[Sugaree]

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2012/05/02/10-high-profile-people-whose-degrees-were-revoked

[crimp]

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2012/05/02/10-high-profile-people-whose-degrees-were-revoked

Most of these folks lost degrees for fraud, which makes sense. Are there any examples of degrees revoked for nonpayment? I was under the impression that most universities require payment up front each semester, and do not themselves service loans, so it doesn't seem likely to me. If I were a university administrator loan servicing is not a game I would want to get into -- too fraught with conflicts of interest.

[JGS1980]

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2012/05/02/10-high-profile-people-whose-degrees-were-revoked

Most of these folks lost degrees for fraud, which makes sense. Are there any examples of degrees revoked for nonpayment? I was under the impression that most universities require payment up front each semester, and do not themselves service loans, so it doesn't seem likely to me. If I were a university administrator loan servicing is not a game I would want to get into -- too fraught with conflicts of interest.

That's all you got? There are millions of new degrees earned every year.

This reminds me of the fake voter fraud scandals.

[crimp]

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2012/05/02/10-high-profile-people-whose-degrees-were-revoked

Most of these folks lost degrees for fraud, which makes sense. Are there any examples of degrees revoked for nonpayment? I was under the impression that most universities require payment up front each semester, and do not themselves service loans, so it doesn't seem likely to me. If I were a university administrator loan servicing is not a game I would want to get into -- too fraught with conflicts of interest.

That's all you got? There are millions of new degrees earned every year.

This reminds me of the fake voter fraud scandals.

I'm having a hard time parsing this -- are you responding to my post, or to Sugaree?

[JGS1980]

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2012/05/02/10-high-profile-people-whose-degrees-were-revoked

Most of these folks lost degrees for fraud, which makes sense. Are there any examples of degrees revoked for nonpayment? I was under the impression that most universities require payment up front each semester, and do not themselves service loans, so it doesn't seem likely to me. If I were a university administrator loan servicing is not a game I would want to get into -- too fraught with conflicts of interest.

That's all you got? There are millions of new degrees earned every year.

This reminds me of the fake voter fraud scandals.

I'm having a hard time parsing this -- are you responding to my post, or to Sugaree?

I'm agreeing with you, and I'm just not impressed with Sugaree's "10 revoked high profile degrees in the last 100 years article" [of course, I did ask for it]

[crimp]

I'm agreeing with you, and I'm just not impressed with Sugaree's "10 revoked high profile degrees in the last 100 years article" [of course, I did ask for it]

Cheers, thanks for the clarification. It does seem a strange thing to be concerned about.

[GuitarStv]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

I'm now very confused (more so than usual). Guitar, have you heard of any colleges revoking their degrees?

I didn't say it was currently common . . . just that it seems pretty easy to do if someone really wanted to.

[chemistk]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

I'm now very confused (more so than usual). Guitar, have you heard of any colleges revoking their degrees?

I didn't say it was currently common . . . just that it seems pretty easy to do if someone really wanted to.

I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment but even if one's diploma was revoked, it'd be pretty hard to deny that they completed their course of study.

It's certainly possible, just not practical and honestly I'd take a revoked degree 9/10 times over student loans, especially if it was from some average college or university.

[GuitarStv]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

I'm now very confused (more so than usual). Guitar, have you heard of any colleges revoking their degrees?

I didn't say it was currently common . . . just that it seems pretty easy to do if someone really wanted to.

I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment but even if one's diploma was revoked, it'd be pretty hard to deny that they completed their course of study.

It's certainly possible, just not practical and honestly I'd take a revoked degree 9/10 times over student loans, especially if it was from some average college or university.

There's nothing that I learned in university that I couldn't have learned on my own with an internet connection.  I went for the official piece of paper that employers ask for.  If my first employee checked with the university and the university said that they had no records of me . . . I wouldn't have got the job that started my career.  A degree was a path to a career for me, a revoked degree would be worthless.

[crimp]

There's nothing that I learned in university that I couldn't have learned on my own with an internet connection.

This is unfortunate. It's also probably true for many students. I can say for myself that this was not true -- I don't fancy myself clever enough to have self-studied my way into understanding the math I took in the latter years of university. Access to clear explanations of my mistakes and misconceptions was invaluable.

I went for the official piece of paper that employers ask for.  If my first employee checked with the university and the university said that they had no records of me . . . I wouldn't have got the job that started my career.  A degree was a path to a career for me, a revoked degree would be worthless.

I (mostly) agree that many hiring managers only care about the degree, not your education. Even so, you get loans from other sources to pay the university. Why would a university administrator care if I refused to pay a private or federal loan? They don't have any skin in the game. The only thing they get from revoking student degrees is bad PR.

[Kroaler]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

I'm now very confused (more so than usual). Guitar, have you heard of any colleges revoking their degrees?

I didn't say it was currently common . . . just that it seems pretty easy to do if someone really wanted to.

I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment but even if one's diploma was revoked, it'd be pretty hard to deny that they completed their course of study.

It's certainly possible, just not practical and honestly I'd take a revoked degree 9/10 times over student loans, especially if it was from some average college or university.

There's nothing that I learned in university that I couldn't have learned on my own with an internet connection.  I went for the official piece of paper that employers ask for.  If my first employee checked with the university and the university said that they had no records of me . . . I wouldn't have got the job that started my career.  A degree was a path to a career for me, a revoked degree would be worthless.

I think the days of brick and mortar education may be on decline in the future.

I see rapid programs being developed for in demand skills.

Supply and demand will sort out the pay.

Here's an example of a rapid learning program for the "trades" (seems that word gets looked down upon in this thread sometimes)

https://www.interplaylearning.com/

I've found the sample troubleshooting scenarios to be pretty useful.

[GuitarStv]

There's nothing that I learned in university that I couldn't have learned on my own with an internet connection.

This is unfortunate. It's also probably true for many students.

To be fair, I'm a shitty student.  My eventual MO was to ditch classes entirely, do exercises at home on my own with the textbook to learn the material and only show up for mid-terms/finals/labs.  Some people get stuff out of classes, but I've never been able to sit in a seat and absorb material that someone is talking at me about.

Effectively I was doing distance learning for all my in-classroom stuff.  :P

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

My point is that an education can't be taken back once given. That's why the federal government is the guarantor for most loans. If the fed did not guarantee the loans, banks would dish them out at even higher interest rates AND get parental co-signers to compensate for risk. Ultimately, the end result is a lot less capable kids would be able to go to college.

What?

Education can absolutely be taken back once given.  A college degree is just that . . . a degree.  Nobody gives a shit about how much you know or learned.  What matters is that you have a degree to show employers (and sometimes that you're able to produce a transcript . . . usually only important for your first job).  All the school needs to do if they don't get paid is say "student Joe Blow?  Nah, never heard of him."

Education revoked.

I'm now very confused (more so than usual). Guitar, have you heard of any colleges revoking their degrees?

I didn't say it was currently common . . . just that it seems pretty easy to do if someone really wanted to.

I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment but even if one's diploma was revoked, it'd be pretty hard to deny that they completed their course of study.

It's certainly possible, just not practical and honestly I'd take a revoked degree 9/10 times over student loans, especially if it was from some average college or university.

There's nothing that I learned in university that I couldn't have learned on my own with an internet connection.  I went for the official piece of paper that employers ask for.  If my first employee checked with the university and the university said that they had no records of me . . . I wouldn't have got the job that started my career.  A degree was a path to a career for me, a revoked degree would be worthless.

I think the days of brick and mortar education may be on decline in the future.

I see rapid programs being developed for in demand skills.

Supply and demand will sort out the pay.

Here's an example of a rapid learning program for the "trades" (seems that word gets looked down upon in this thread sometimes)

https://www.interplaylearning.com/

I've found the sample troubleshooting scenarios to be pretty useful.

I don't see any way around it, at least the way universities are progressing towards ridiculous opulence/heavy funding of athletics/etc. I wonder if this is just an American thing. I can't imagine universities in other countries where it's free have an experience or cost that is similar to ours, but I may be wrong.

[crimp]

There's nothing that I learned in university that I couldn't have learned on my own with an internet connection.

This is unfortunate. It's also probably true for many students.

To be fair, I'm a shitty student.  My eventual MO was to ditch classes entirely, do exercises at home on my own with the textbook to learn the material and only show up for mid-terms/finals/labs.  Some people get stuff out of classes, but I've never been able to sit in a seat and absorb material that someone is talking at me about.

Effectively I was doing distance learning for all my in-classroom stuff.  :P

Ha, thanks for the laugh. More power to you :P

[ender]

But then this logic applies to everything then. Got a car loan you can't afford? Bad parents. Bought a house that's too big? Bad parents. Though not necessarily wrong, at some point shouldn't we instead focus on the core lack of education /guidance issue? Rather than forgive the loans of, not just the people who made poor choices, but every single person with student debt? If it is being talked about better college guidance and prep, I have not heard much about that.

Secondly; I have no doubt some receive poor advice from their parents, but they way it's being told almost every single person with student debt is some poor victim who didn't know better. I refuse to believe there are that many people out there (who managed to get into college!) with awful parets. Kids with the worst parents usually don't get to college at all.

Actually; thirdly. I went to college in a country with "free college", but I still got debt of about $30,000 for living expenses. About the median in the US. I support free public colleges, it's idiotic not to, but it will still cost, there will still be debt.

Rather than forgive outright I think the government should take over the debt and set the interest at the long term treasury rate. Then have a program of forgiveness for needy situations or something.

How many 17 year olds can buy cars/houses? There's a reason no bank will loan a 17 year old $40k for a car. Or $200k for a house.

If the government was guaranteeing car loans you better believe that 17 year olds would be approved for as much money as the gov would ensure.

A major problem with student loans is the government has absolutely sponsored, subsidized, and guaranteed the madness that is student loans. I've said numerous times in this thread that I don't support forgiveness without a plan to change this. But acting as if car/houses are in the same situation is.. really missing context.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

But then this logic applies to everything then. Got a car loan you can't afford? Bad parents. Bought a house that's too big? Bad parents. Though not necessarily wrong, at some point shouldn't we instead focus on the core lack of education /guidance issue? Rather than forgive the loans of, not just the people who made poor choices, but every single person with student debt? If it is being talked about better college guidance and prep, I have not heard much about that.

Secondly; I have no doubt some receive poor advice from their parents, but they way it's being told almost every single person with student debt is some poor victim who didn't know better. I refuse to believe there are that many people out there (who managed to get into college!) with awful parets. Kids with the worst parents usually don't get to college at all.

Actually; thirdly. I went to college in a country with "free college", but I still got debt of about $30,000 for living expenses. About the median in the US. I support free public colleges, it's idiotic not to, but it will still cost, there will still be debt.

Rather than forgive outright I think the government should take over the debt and set the interest at the long term treasury rate. Then have a program of forgiveness for needy situations or something.

How many 17 year olds can buy cars/houses? There's a reason no bank will loan a 17 year old $40k for a car. Or $200k for a house.

If the government was guaranteeing car loans you better believe that 17 year olds would be approved for as much money as the gov would ensure.

A major problem with student loans is the government has absolutely sponsored, subsidized, and guaranteed the madness that is student loans. I've said numerous times in this thread that I don't support forgiveness without a plan to change this. But acting as if car/houses are in the same situation is.. really missing context.

I agree this is a big part of the issue. Not to be flippant, but it also appeals to my roots of "the government generally screws things up" that I'm not nearly as intense about as I was but that I still believe has some truth in it.

The government steps in to fix a perceived problem - more people need to go to college. They help propel forward this tide of not only college debt but rampant and excessive degree requirements for jobs. Then people seemingly blithely say, no problem, let's just let the government forgive student loans as if it's the same magic bullet as people thought when they said, let's let the government back student loans. Through helping to give money to tons of people who should have had more sense than to take loans to begin with, they've helped move universities down a path that has allowed catastrophic changes to the universities now flush with government-backed cash - changes that, IMO, may not be recoverable from. Solution - more government magic pills - let's do this. Maybe once we get this "fixed," the government can help create more problems that they can magically fix by throwing trillions of dollars at them as well. It's laughable.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

The fact is that there are only so many jobs that require degrees and pumping out more college graduates doesn't change this equation.

[GuitarStv]

The fact is that there are only so many jobs that require degrees and pumping out more college graduates doesn't change this equation.

Jobs requiring post secondary education have increased over time.  Last that I read, 35% of jobs require a degree, 30% require some post secondary education, and 30% require high school or less.  (https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/recovery-job-growth-and-education-requirements-through-2020/#:~:text=By%20educational%20attainment%3A%2035%20percent,require%20education%20beyond%20high%20school., https://www.chronicle.com/newsletter/the-edge/2020-01-22).  This number has been steadily increasing over time.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

That's because degrees are getting watered down. Now any idiot with terrible scores can do a degree. So a basic degree is the new high school diploma.

[chemistk]

That's because degrees are getting watered down. Now any idiot with terrible scores can do a degree. So a basic degree is the new high school diploma.

But there's no going back on that, from a practical standpoint.

I've watched as positions within my company that, 7 years ago listed an associate's/technical certification as the minimum education expectation are now listing a bachelor's as the minimum for otherwise the same position with the same relative job requirements.

Many automated HR screening systems also are looking for minimum qualifications as a 4yr degree even if the position could accommodate someone with less education.

Higher education isn't a predictor of success, but it's being used increasingly as the minimum for entry into a lot of positions.

[Kroaler]

I have to imagine the auto screening systems would be calibrated to match supply, should the supply of 4 year educated candidates dry up.

If the company pays enough to demand a 4 year then so be it. Alot of companies don't if we're being honest. 

[caleb]

That's because degrees are getting watered down. Now any idiot with terrible scores can do a degree. So a basic degree is the new high school diploma.

If you look back to the pre-WWII universities of the US and Europe (no idea about Australia), they were basically finishing schools/playpens for the sons of rich families.  Lots of students left after a year or two to rejoin the family business because the degree itself wasn't very important as their working life was hereditarily secured.  They'd made their connections and fledged a bit, which was the point.

It's only since the Second World War as universities have become a rung in a meritocratic hierarchy that there's been some widespread idea that universities and courses of study ought to treat rigor as an inherent good.  That pretense to rigor has been consistently undercut by the desire of students for high grades and the desire of institutions and their accreditors for high completion rates.  Insofar as a rigorous college experience has been a goal at all, it's mostly been a curated mirage.  People were mostly fine with the fiction as long as white males were the primary beneficiaries. 

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

That's because degrees are getting watered down. Now any idiot with terrible scores can do a degree. So a basic degree is the new high school diploma.

But there's no going back on that, from a practical standpoint.

I've watched as positions within my company that, 7 years ago listed an associate's/technical certification as the minimum education expectation are now listing a bachelor's as the minimum for otherwise the same position with the same relative job requirements.

Many automated HR screening systems also are looking for minimum qualifications as a 4yr degree even if the position could accommodate someone with less education.

Higher education isn't a predictor of success, but it's being used increasingly as the minimum for entry into a lot of positions.

Higher education performance correlates with job performance.

It used to be only a few people got into degrees. Now everyone can find a degree at Podunk College - so because of grade inflation and degree inflation, employers require more. That's perfectly rational.

It's a 'race to the top' and it's the fault of students for being dumb enough to suck up the propaganda of colleges. This isn't to say that a college degree isn't worthwhile - but a lot of them are worthless because they are offered to students who don't have what it takes to go to college. These students get sucked into the hype.

But you can't have it both ways. If we arbitrarily said no one with a SAT score of less than 600/600 could get into college people would whinge that they're not getting a chance. So you let everyone get into college then people whinge that they got an uncompetitive degree. They'll never be happy, but that's how meritocracy works.

[Roland of Gilead]

It used to be only a few people got into degrees. Now everyone can find a degree at Podunk College - so because of grade inflation and degree inflation, employers require more. That's perfectly rational.

How can people see the above as perfectly rational and yet can't see that increasing minimum wage just causes wage inflation and price inflation of goods?

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

In a perfectly efficient market that's what increasing min wage would do. In the real world it causes some inflation and some real gains on the low end.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I have to imagine the auto screening systems would be calibrated to match supply, should the supply of 4 year educated candidates dry up.

If the company pays enough to demand a 4 year then so be it. Alot of companies don't if we're being honest.

Great point. There will be an adjustment to any situation, but where we're heading as a country in regards to education after high school is untenable, so people shouldn't act as if an adjustment isn't happening one way or the other. Why not have an adjustment make sense? Reduce rampant and unnecessary 4-year degrees and company's hiring processes will eventually reflect it. Careers that pay enough to afford a degree will pay enough to afford a degree. Otherwise, companies will need to buckle down and improve their screening and interview processes.

[WhiteTrashCash]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-bill-would-clear-hurdle-for-student-debt-forgiveness-11614974747

A provision in the Senate bill just passed does away with tax consequences for student loan forgiveness through 2025. This would be huge if Biden ends up forgiving student loan debt.

[crimp]

Turns out @GuitarStv was right. MA public colleges withholding transcripts for nonpayment of fees.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/03/22/massachusetts-public-colleges-are-withholding-transcripts-and-degrees-from-thousands-over-unpaid-bills

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Sounds fair to me.

[crimp]

Sounds fair to me.

Fair or not it seems like it runs counter to the universities’ interests, which is what I argued above (clearly in error). Seems like if you want people who can’t afford to pay off $1-2k in bills to do so, you would want them to be able to use the credentials they studied for to get a better job. I also find it strange that people in this situation can’t get public or private loans to discharge the balance and access the transcripts.