The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: DavidDoes on August 11, 2016, 12:58:12 PM
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UPDATE
I want to thank everyone that has helped out. Since posting this, we've paid off our Discover debt, and have decided to do public school. Also, we've opened up Capital One 360 Checking and Savings accounts, with Checking earning .20% and Savings earning .75%. This will add ~$40/mo in free money, depending on balances of course.
We are now focusing on getting to six months of expenses saved (~$15,500), which should take roughly one year to do. Then we will start focusing on investing.
I'm really feeling the pressure lately. Last year, I left my career that paid $48,000. I now make around half that doing something I really enjoy. I currently work in coffee, where I really could build a career, and would someday like to own a shop with my wife, whom is also a barista.
Case Study:
Life Situation: 28 m, 26 f, 5 f. Seattle, WA.
Gross Salary/Wages: $54,000
Pre-tax deductions: n/a :( (wife's health coverage starts next month)
Taxes:
Fed: $476
State: $0
SS: $279.50
Med: $65.37
Current expenses:
$1,745.00 Rent & Util
$15.00 Seattle City Light
$121.33 Phones
$60.00 Internet (Wave G)
$832.00 Waldorf
$100.00 Discover Card
$400.00 Groceries
$30.00 Household
$30.00 Health & Beauty
$40.00 Pets
$20.00 Activities
$8.25 Amazon Prime
$10.42 Renters Insurance
$3.00 Harry's
$500.00 Emergency Savings
$0.00 HBO Now
$16.41 Spotify Premium
$10.95 Adobe CC
I have any non-monthly subscriptions broken down into monthly installments, and those get budgeted every month in the software we use, YNAB. The EF contribution hasn't happened in a few months due to massive overspending (just moved).
Recently canceled HBO Now. We still have Spotify Premium. Adobe CC is used for my photography hobby. That Activities budget of $20/month is regularly overspent. We definitely have an issue with spending money outside of the home, on dining ventures. Not fancy stuff. Things like coffee shops, ice cream, etc. But a lot of little $10 outings adds up!
Assets: $2,500 EF
Liabilities: Discover Card payment of $100. This was an amount left-over when we filed bankruptcy in 2014.
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How do we do it? I would love recommendations here. I feel like we don't have enough food, despite making everything from scratch except things like bread and cereal. I feel like we're not going to ever be in a situation where we could afford to take time off work, much less get injured/fired or retire... Granted, there are plenty of advancements in our future, but it seems pretty dire right now.
The $1,800 we pay in rent includes utilities and pet rent. We actually only pay 53% of our unit's market rent value because of Seattle's MFTE program that allows us to pay based on our income level. This $1,800 unit is a 2x2, something unheard of in Seattle. It's location allows us to live a car-free lifestyle.
The $832/month is for our daughter's Waldorf school. She is now old enough to go to Public, but she wanted to do one more year of kindergarten at Waldorf, then start Public in first grade (Waldorf does two years of kindergarten). The school gives us 50% tuition aid (normally $1,664).
It feels as though we may never reach financial freedom. How does one buy a house in this city without being rich first?
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True, with that attitude, you're probably never going to reach financial freedom. However, it seems like you've put so much effort into proving why you're fucked...how about you put that same effort into figuring out how NOT to be fucked?
You've got to spend less than you earn, and there's a whole wealth of information on this website on how to do that.
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At first glance it seems like you and your wife earn LCOLA-level income but live in a HCOLA. $800 a month for elective kindergarten tuition is totally brutalizing your finances.
Could you do the same work and earn the same income but live someplace much, much less expensive?
If not and you love what you do, perhaps that enjoyment is the payoff for low earnings (and possibly foregoing FIRE)...
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Things really aren't that dire; you're on a tight budget, but a doable one.
You save $500/month for an emergency fund. How big of an emergency fund are you hoping to have? You already have $2500. Let's say you want a $5000 EF; you'll finish funding that in 5 months. After that, you can start putting that $500 toward your discover card debt, and once that's gone, into an IRA or another long-term savings investment vehicle.
Your daughter is only in kindergarten for another year (honestly, I'd seriously reconsider that expense in your current position; she's five, and will be going to public school next year and making friends, she will be able to handle the transition now just fine). After that year (or now), you'll have $832/month to again, put toward debt and then savings.
You're right that it might be a long time before you can buy a house in Seattle, which is an expensive city, but that's not exactly the same thing as financial freedom. If you start measuring success as "could buy a house in HCOL right now on two baristas' salaries," you're in trouble. Start measuring it in slow and steady savings, combined with a frugal lifestyle. You'll see gains.
If your gross salary at your job you enjoy is really $24,000, and you have no concrete plans to switch that for another one, I hate to break it to you but you probably need to get a side hustle.
How much is the total discover card debt, and what is the interest rate? If it were me, I would probably plow every penny of that $500/month saving into getting rid of that debt ASAP. That money is FAR more valuable doing that than chilling in a savings account in case something goes wrong. Something has already gone wrong - you have outstanding credit card debt.
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Not to be a debbie downer but you can't have it all. Excess money doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Let me get this straight. You want to have the best place to live, downtown, private kindergarten, have a job you love and enjoy, AND retire early? Maybe if your dream job paid more it would be possible. You have to prioritize. What's your reasoning towards shooting for FIRE if you have a job you thoroughly enjoy? If your dream is to open a coffee shop or roaster a small business owner is never retired.
Are you really just trying to get to the point where you are saving money (not necessarily FI)? That's a different question altogether.
Also, why are you letting your 4 year old make a decision that takes up 20% of your income????? It sounds absurd when put that way doesn't it? Its 10k a year after taxes. Imagine if you put that money aside for their college instead? I think that $832 a month to a 529 is much more defendable and reasonable than towards a kindergarten.
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welcome to the forums.
Yup, you have hair on fire emergency.
suspend discretionary spending until you can wipe that out.
I agree there's no point in paying for another year of Kinder.
But if you pulled your kid out of private school, how much would you pay for after school care?
I pay over $500 in another HCOL area, which could partially offset the private school tuition.
I would cut the phone and food categories in addition.
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Looks like you could save money on the phones by switching carriers, depending on your contract terms. I'd also drop Spotify Premium and consider letting go of Adobe CC if there's another way you could work on the photography. Or can you turn the photography into a side job?
What do you use Amazon Prime for? When I had it, I found it was encouraging me to spend more at Amazon than I otherwise would have. Also, sometimes the free fast shipping tempted me to pay a little more for the new book even when a used one was available.
Try sending the extra to the credit card -- what's the actual balance? And maybe get a tub of store-brand ice cream and some sprinkles to have ice cream at home.
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Certainly no offense intended.
There are SO MANY jobs that pay more than what you and your wife earn (nothing against being a barista). I think you should consider one or both of you exploring other career options. For example, my brother (retired) earns $17/hr as a "security officer" (without a gun). A lower cost of living area is another consideration. To get any real traction, your rent should be 25% of take home pay (or lower; though it is great that you have a car free lifestyle).
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It is absolutely up there as one of the most insane things I've ever heard of paying almost 1K a month for private kindergarten when you have that low income to debt ratio. You are seriously delusional if you think this is a wise decision. Your child is FIVE and it's not going to matter if they went to private kinder at any point ever. NO SCHOOL is so fan-freaking-tastic that you need to pay for it at that age. They are learning the basics at that in kinder and they are all little sponges - they'll soak up anything and everything whether it's in a fancypants school or not.
Serious disconnect there. Complain all you like about your low salary or high cost of living, but when you're the one chopping away on your arm with the rusty saw and then complaining about the pain? Damnest thing I've seen lately.
I'm a graphic designer/fine artist (that is how I made my living for the last 20+ years) and don't even have a subscription to Photoshop right now. And I can afford it. Spending money on a hobby that is not paying for any of the hobby expenses when you're drowning? Again, put down the rusty saw and back away until you can dig out of the mess.
I get you're really in the dumps but some of this is really just common sense. It can be hard to see that when you're buried, but some of your expenses are literally no-brainers to get rid of completely or reduce.
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I get you're really in the dumps but some of this is really just common sense. It can be hard to see that when you're buried, but some of your expenses are literally no-brainers to get rid of completely or reduce.
+1. Particularly when the main no-brainer (kindergarten) is your second largest expense after housing! You can give yourself a HUGE amount of breathing room all in one fell swoop, with essentially zero pain (or at least the exact same amount of pain you seem fine with enduring when she goes to public first grade in one year). This is the low-hanging fruit, my friend. An ice cream here and there can be cut out, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the completely unnecessary kindergarten costs. It's like the equivalent of a second job without having to lift a finger.
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You have an emergency fund and a "$100 Discover card" minimum payment (implying a large balance you're paying interest on at a ridiculous rate)? WTF! That is exactly the kind of emergency an emergency fund is for, so dump that $2500 and $500/month* directly into the credit card balance until it is gone. Then start building up an emergency fund again if you want.
Replace the Photoshop subscription with Krita (https://krita.org/en/) or GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/) (or Gimphoto (http://www.gimphoto.com/)?). Ditch Amazon Prime and Spotify. You have no excuse for unnecessary subscriptions in your current financial situation!
(FYI, like Frankies Girl, my wife is also a professional graphic designer and does not have an Adobe subscription.)
I'm aware that (parts of?) Seattle have a reputation for having slow and/or expensive Internet access, but $60 is unreasonable. Cut it down by half, even if that means the speed is <1Mbps. Ditto with phones: there's no reason for them to cost more than $30/person/month (i.e., $60 total since your daughter should not have one), and even that is high by I.P. Daley's standards.
And ditch the private kindergarten, obviously!
(* Actually, $500 plus the savings freed up by all the other changes -- so really more like $1500/month after you ditch the kindergarten etc.)
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How does one buy a house in this city without being rich first?
It's probably cheaper to rent than buy. Especially considering your current rent situation. How much would it cost to buy a condo like the place that you are living? Then think about taxes and upkeep. It sounds like you have an exceptional living situation right now and I'd look on the bright side of that instead of feeling down about not owning a house.
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FI is harder on really low salaries. It is doable but generally much more difficult as even the most frugal can only lower their expenses so much. But the basic truth of FI holds true regardless of whether you make 50k or 50 million: you must spend significantly less than you make. How you attempt to do it is up to you – most people seem to find success in trying to maximize income while also reducing expenses simultaneously.
I agree with the others…Waldorf kindergarten is the type of silly rich person splurge you see on reality TV. Sure, it's fine for people who have tons of money and no where else better to put it. But for you, it’s probably just a waste of money that could be used to actually do something truly beneficial for the child (aka stabilize her parents’ finances). I highly doubt she is going to have a better life because she spent 2 years in Waldorf kindergarten before going public. You on the other hand could immediately use that money to shore up your finances so she grows up in a financially stable family where mom and dad have options. Stop this madness. Now. The public school sock puppets and ABC songs will teach her the exact same stuff without the $800 bill.
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in my district, open enrollment is in Jan.
By Aug, you'd be put on a waitlist to your neighborhood school.
So if someone moves, then your kid can get in.
otherwise, you're resigned to shuttling your kid to the overflow school, which can be a shitty addition to the commute.
I would hurry over and get myself waitlisted asap.
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Current expenses:
$1,745.00 Rent & Util
$15.00 Seattle City Light
[b]$121.33 Phones[/b]
$60.00 Internet (Wave G)
[b]$832.00 Waldorf[/b]
$100.00 Discover Card
$400.00 Groceries
$30.00 Household
$30.00 Health & Beauty
$40.00 Pets
$20.00 Activities
[b]$8.25 Amazon Prime[/b]
$10.42 Renters Insurance
$3.00 Harry's
$500.00 Emergency Savings
$0.00 HBO Now
[b]$16.41 Spotify Premium[/b]
[b]$10.95 Adobe CC[/b]
Recently canceled HBO Now. We still have Spotify Premium. Adobe CC is used for my photography hobby. That Activities budget of $20/month is regularly overspent. We definitely have an issue with spending money outside of the home, on dining ventures. Not fancy stuff. Things like coffee shops, ice cream, etc. But a lot of little $10 outings adds up!
Assets: $2,500 EF
Liabilities: Discover Card payment of $100. This was an amount left-over when we filed bankruptcy in 2014.
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How do we do it? I would love recommendations here. I feel like we don't have enough food, despite making everything from scratch except things like bread and cereal. I feel like we're not going to ever be in a situation where we could afford to take time off work, much less get injured/fired or retire... Granted, there are plenty of advancements in our future, but it seems pretty dire right now.
The $1,800 we pay in rent includes utilities and pet rent. We actually only pay 53% of our unit's market rent value because of Seattle's MFTE program that allows us to pay based on our income level. This $1,800 unit is a 2x2, something unheard of in Seattle. It's location allows us to live a car-free lifestyle.
The $832/month is for our daughter's Waldorf school. She is now old enough to go to Public, but she wanted to do one more year of kindergarten at Waldorf, then start Public in first grade (Waldorf does two years of kindergarten). The school gives us 50% tuition aid (normally $1,664).
It feels as though we may never reach financial freedom. How does one buy a house in this city without being rich first?
Warning: long post
I hope I will be able to help at least a little.
1. Change your attitude.
I know it is hard at your age to see the light. But I was not dreaming of a future at your age - although I was starting to see that I am "lucky". I considered that if I do my part as good as I can things will work out. I can say things worked out. Although I am 38 and just started really saving last year, I think I am fine. And just to give some details on how lucky I was: at 25 years of age I worked in a computer store with low wage - one year later as a Junior developer/tester, one more year later to another company as a Tester (still living with my parents because the income was too low). Now, after 13 years, I have a family, a house (not living in it, it is in my native country), earning good, moved to Seattle one year ago (to the same company above).
I would say that if you like what you do your "luck" will come too.
And I admit that until 30-33 I was more interested in parties and going out than savings - part because the income was so low that I did not see "the light".
Don't pass on having fun, just make sure your having fun does not screw you on the long term. So have fun without destroying your health.
2.I made some of your expenses bold, will start with the easy ones.
Phones:
he last year I had Republic Wireless - 35 USD for two phones. I finally got fed up with them trying to call only over wireless and switched to TMobile - 98 USD for two phones. You can save between 90 and 30 USD/month there. You could look at Republic Wireless, now they have more phone options and they are out of the hardware of the phones. I would go to Republic/other cheap option for at least one year (the good thing is that you are not locked in) if I were you - 90 USD/month difference is a lot I think. It is almost your Discover card payment.
Amazon Prime + Spotify Premium:
- Get rid of at least one. Amazon also has music and movies, could you just use that?
Or even better, get rid of both if that makes you buy less.
One thing to keep in mind: make sure that Prime membership does not trick you into buying things.
Getting rid of both: 36 USD/month
Getting rid of the Premium part of Spotify: 17 USD/month.
Adobe CC:
If you like the stuff you are doing with it look into getting something out of it too.
Part time photography? I see a lot of people coming to the Discovery park with photographs - some have newborn babies, some are newly wed people, some are just people who want some better pictures?
Waldorf:
This is the hardest one to shut down for me as I want the best for my kid too.
But: we have our kid in a co-op preschool and we are very happy with this - we paid 200 USD/month last year, now will pay 400 USD/month as we will go one more day /week.
It is only 3 hours/day 3 days/week, so I don't know if this suits you as you both work.
It forced my wife to socialize, work for the co-op and it allowed us to integrate quicker.
The education part is very good too from our opinion - my wife should be able to tell, she has a B.SC in Psychology focused on teaching kids with mental disabilities, went to a highschool to become a teacher (don't know the name for this type of school in the USA), worked for 10 years as a preschool teacher in our country.
I don't think this is a problem for you if you are born in this country, but I thought I should mention this :).
In the end this is only for one more year - although it adds up to a nice amount.
Would those 9,000 USD help you do something else and still have a good start for your kid?
So, the easy ones to cut (for me at least) above go to more than 100 USD/month.
If you can also cut the kid tuition you get even more.
Put everything to pay the Discover card and after you pay it off you can save this money.
I would even put more from the monthly emergency fund toward the Discovery card. If something happens you still have the card and you can put some expenses on it, but at least you don't pay interest.
EDIT: Forgot to address one more important thing.
You ask about buying a house in Seattle. Don't do it. Forget about it.
I did the same in my country when I started to earn more (thanks to my "luck"). I got a mortgage and built a house.
As the plans did not match the expenses for the house it added to some work related stress - and I am 99% sure that some of the health problems I have now are from that stress.
So don't think about buying a house now.
Get into a comfortable state financially/mentally. And when you will have enough you get a house too.
Last:
The fact that you posted here is a good sign for you - you will get advice on fixing things.
Use that advice.
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Posting to follow...
ETA: Thanks to other posters here, I've just cancelled our Amazon Prime membership. Glad I went and checked right away ... It was set to renew October 3/16!!
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How does one buy a house in this city without being rich first?
It's probably cheaper to rent than buy. Especially considering your current rent situation. How much would it cost to buy a condo like the place that you are living? Then think about taxes and upkeep. It sounds like you have an exceptional living situation right now and I'd look on the bright side of that instead of feeling down about not owning a house.
Yep. In a HCOL, the answer to "how do I buy a house?" is simple: don't.
First of all, unless you have a time machine and can buy at 20-years-ago prices, renting is almost invariably cheaper. Second, the high prices are probably a bubble anyway, so buying now would be stupid. (Granted, the bubble could continue to inflate for a long time, but still...)
Instead, if you have a burning desire to own real estate, buy investment property in some other market -- one in which it's actually a good investment -- while continuing to rent the place you live in.
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At first glance it seems like you and your wife earn LCOLA-level income but live in a HCOLA. $800 a month for elective kindergarten tuition is totally brutalizing your finances.
Could you do the same work and earn the same income but live someplace much, much less expensive?
If not and you love what you do, perhaps that enjoyment is the payoff for low earnings (and possibly foregoing FIRE)...
These are your fundamental problems. If you insist on living in a high-cost area without the high-income salary to accompany it, you can make it happen but something's gotta give.
Cut the phone bill at least in half (read I.P. Daley's guide). Nobody needs that kind of phone service unless you're making money with it. $60/mo saved here conservatively.
$60/mo might be the best you can do for internet, but it also might not be. Look into that. Even if it's "slow." Again, unless you're making money on it, get the slowest/cheapest internet service you can find.
$400/mo for groceries is plenty. I'm not sure how you can spend that much and not think you have enough food. And quit buying cereal, it's crazy expensive. If you want grains in the morning, eat oatmeal.
Cut Prime and Spotify. You don't need that. $23/mo more.
I don't know what Harry's is.
My GF is a pro photographer and she *does* pay for Adobe CC (just to be the contrarian here...). But you don't need it. And if you have fancy photography gear, sell it (you can always re-buy when you can truly afford it). $10.95 down.
All that plus dumping the Ivy League kindergarten (which is your real problem apart from low-income-plus-high-cost-area) puts you almost a grand ahead.
That plus your $500/mo savings puts you at about $1500/mo in savings, which works out to about a 38% savings rate. Which is actually *freaking great* considering your income.
Take that $1500/mo, channel it first at whatever your Discover balance is to kill that to death, then you'll have $1600/mo in savings which bumps you back above 40%.
Then, now that your hair will no longer be on fire, maybe add back in Adobe if you enjoy your photography hobby that much (and re-buy equipment if you sold it).
Now, consult the book of MMM: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/
40% savings rate then puts you at 22 years to retirement. You'll be 50, she'll be 48. On barista pay. In Seattle. Seriously. You could make that happen.
Even better, find some way to earn an extra four grand a year on the side (~$350/mo). Anybody can make that happen. That bumps you up to a 45% savings rate and retirement three years earlier. If you somehow increase your income a lot (opportunities exist for that Seattle or else nobody could afford rent), those numbers only get rosier.
You're not screwed. Re-frame this situation and you're set up for financial success. You're doing enough right apart from the kindergarten situation that a few extra tweaks puts you way way ahead.
And buying is a house is no measure of wealth (only a measure of spending like ownership of anything else), and buying a house in a high-cost-of-living area is probably the wrong choice anyway (renting is generally a better deal).
Seriously, you can right this ship. You get less of a tolerance for error when you're making less, and even less when also in a high-cost area, but if you do everything right (and you're close), things are looking pretty great.
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Other people have already said it but I will reiterate: You need to bring more money in. (right, right, easier said that done). Honestly I think you have a decent handle on your expenses. We can debate paying for Kindergarten all day long, but your kid will be out of kindergarten and into public school before that debate is settled. On the other hand bringing in more money will have a compounding positive effect years into the future. Can your wife look for a higher-paying job? Just as a quick example, Costco pays around 17$/hr for cashiers in Seattle, WA. If she has any education/training then she should be able to find something ever more remunerative. I definitely understand the importance of working a job you enjoy, but you took an enormous pay cut to get that. You need to be seriously looking at ways to bump your salary up, whether that be getting more skills, negotiating for more, or finding a different job. Best of luck to you.
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How does one buy a house in this city without being rich first?
It's probably cheaper to rent than buy. Especially considering your current rent situation. How much would it cost to buy a condo like the place that you are living? Then think about taxes and upkeep. It sounds like you have an exceptional living situation right now and I'd look on the bright side of that instead of feeling down about not owning a house.
Agree. My husband and I currently rent in another HCOL area, and anytime we feel like we maybe ought to be buying a house, a quick calculation of what taxes and mortgage interest would be brings us back to earth pretty quickly. It actually makes no financial sense for us to buy a house right now. Given your great rent situation, I would put aspirations of home ownership on a very far back burner and focus more on things like the credit card debt and getting yourselves more breathing room through implementing some of the other suggestions here.
I am curious about the Amazon Prime membership. From the rest of your budget, it looks like you aren't really buying much stuff on Amazon (perhaps $100/month if all your household, health & beauty, and pet purchases are via Amazon), unless you get a lot of your food there? So I don't see that you have a huge need for 2-day shipping. For movies/TV shows, you might want to check out the local library...I know ours has tons of great DVDs so anytime we want a movie or TV night we can usually find something there to fit the bill.
As someone who is currently spending an embarrassing amount of money on childcare each month, I can't fault you too much for wanting to let your daughter stay at the Waldorf school, but I would at least consider whether or not it's really the best choice. If she were to go to public kindergarten this year, would she then continue onto first grade at the same school? If so, it might be better for her to go ahead and start kindergarten at the public school, rather than come in a year later when other kids have already started to form friendships and social groups.
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Other people have already said it but I will reiterate: You need to bring more money in. (right, right, easier said that done). Honestly I think you have a decent handle on your expenses. We can debate paying for Kindergarten all day long, but your kid will be out of kindergarten and into public school before that debate is settled. On the other hand bringing in more money will have a compounding positive effect years into the future. Can your wife look for a higher-paying job? Just as a quick example, Costco pays around 17$/hr for cashiers in Seattle, WA. If she has any education/training then she should be able to find something ever more remunerative. I definitely understand the importance of working a job you enjoy, but you took an enormous pay cut to get that. You need to be seriously looking at ways to bump your salary up, whether that be getting more skills, negotiating for more, or finding a different job. Best of luck to you.
What I don't understand is why OP took the lower paying job to begin with, when they clearly can't afford it at this point. It seems to me like people sometimes feel entitled to a job that they love. With double the salary, this conversation would be much different. What type of planning went into changing jobs? I guess it doesn't really matter at this point, just something I wonder about in general when I see these types of posts. However, like another poster mentioned, maybe OP would consider getting a higher paying job or a second job temporarily until the debt is paid off and the EF is where they want it. If paying for preschool is that important, the second job or higher paying job could make it feasible. Although, as another person commented, I'd be interested in hearing what the after school care costs would be if they did cut the Waldorf school.
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Our household income is many times what the OP's is. We have a Waldorf school very near our house. I took a look at their tuition and thought: "WTF???! People have got to be out of their F'ing MINDS! There is no way in HELL I am paying that kind of money to educate my child!!!"
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What I don't understand is why OP took the lower paying job to begin with, when they clearly can't afford it at this point. It seems to me like people sometimes feel entitled to a job that they love.
I read the sentence where the OP considers working "in coffee" to be some kind aspirational career (and barista as something other than a dead-end job???), shook my head and sighed, and moved on. I can only assume Seattle is weird in ways I can't begin to understand.
[MOD NOTE: This thread has been flagged for several different response posts denigrating the OP's choice. Just because you can't see a future "in coffee" doesn't mean the OP can't grow a business. Let's have some manners, here. Criticize, if you wish, but save the hyperbole and insult.]
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What do you see your future prospects as? You quit a higher paying job for a lower one. You need more income.
Why the private kindergarten?
Why do you need to live in a HCOL for low wages?
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I'm going to ignore your expenses, because others are really discussing those and have very valid points.
Instead, I'm going to talk about other things. You seem to have 3 major financial goals in life:
1) Become financially independent one day
2) To own a house
3) To maybe start your own coffee shop business
I don't think you have the tools for that right now. You don't say what your education level is or what your previous job/career was. But for your goals, you need these things:
1) Money. Starting a business also requires money, so you don't even just need it for becoming FI or buying a house or even just to have more breathing room in your life.
2) Credit. If you just claimed bankruptcy 2 years ago, you're not going to be able to get a mortgage or a small business loan right now even if you had more money to your name. You need to, over time, build that financial trustworthyness so banks will loan to you.
3) Education. Running a coffee shop business doesn't just mean you know how to make a good cup of coffee or provide good customer service. Actually serving coffee will probably be a small part of your job if you truly become a business owner in the future.
4) Experience. I'll get more to that later though.
Here are my starting suggestions for getting those things:
- Can you get back into the previous field you were in? I don't care if it's not something you love. You need more income right now. Money is a tool. You need more money to get the things you want.
- I suggest dropping your daughter's schooling and instead use that money to go back to school yourself. Get some sort of business bachelor's degree, or if you have a bachelor's, then get an MBA. Even if your bachelor's isn't in business, you will be able to take some catch-up courses so the college/university will allow you in the MBA program. You don't have to go to school full-time. You could go part-time after work and/or on weekends. The reason I suggest this is it'll give you more education on business matters, but it'll also help you look more promising.
- Use that education to help you get a higher paying job *while you are working towards* building up your own business eventually. You can probably also get some good experience out of it that will give you MORE knowledge you will need when you open up that coffee shop. More income also means it's easier to buy a house and easier to save more money so you can become financially independent. DO NOT see more income as permission to start buying fancy cars and other unnecessary things that'll get you in debt. That would be throwing away a tool, and you don't want that.
This is going to take time. You must be patient. The goals you want to achieve are not achievable for you immediately. It'll take several years minimum working toward it. But it's not impossible.
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Agreed with many of the previous commenters.
Use your emergency fund to pay off the credit card. That's what an emergency fund is for. If another emergency happens while your emergency fund has a low balance, you may have to run up a credit card balance again, but in that case you'll be no worse off than you are now. In the more likely case where no emergency happens in the near future, paying off the high-rate credit card debt is much better. Once that debt is gone, you'll have an extra $100/month to put toward savings, forever.
If you want to increase your savings rate, the lowest-hanging fruit is the private kindergarten. Finding a way to increase your income will also be important because your budget looks mostly pretty reasonable.
Market-rate homeownership anywhere close to the city center is probably out of reach for you, unless you increase your income and/or we allow enough new housing to be built that the supply actually gets out ahead of the hordes moving to town. However you may as well apply for subsidized options such as Habitat for Humanity or a community land trust (http://www.homesteadclt.org/) or similar.
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Realistically I'm just commenting because I don't know how to follow without commenting. Plus, we plan on opening a coffee shop too!
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Lots of good advice above. I hope you'll heed it. Redbird, my hat's off to your thoughtful reply especially.
My perspective is a little different. I agree that the school has got to go, but for different reasons. Based on the attitude evidenced by your choice of thread title, your previous BK (which you glossed over), your current income, and everything else I can glean from reading this, you are not on track to become wealthy in the near future. Putting your child in a fancy school feels like you are trying to prove something.
In reality, you are doing your child no favors. To start with, you are putting her in a situation where she is a "have-not" among "haves". It sucks to be the kid whose clothes aren't as nice, who doesn't have access to similar extracurriculars, whose parents are always stressed about money. Further, I would argue that spending this much on her education is premature. I'd propose that if one must attend an expensive private school, grades one through three are more essential, certainly not pre-school or kindergarten. Fear not, I am not proposing that either in your specific situation.
It seems more fair for your kid to grow up happy and well adjusted among kids from similar socio-economic background, where she's just like all the other kids. I am not referring in any way to racial equality, I am speaking only of economic parity. It's a helluva lot easier to get through life and the business of growing up if one feels part of the overall common experience and not an outsider looking in.
What happens when you finally admit you're spending too much money on her schooling and she has to start over somewhere else and make a whole new set of friends? It is highly unlikely that she will maintain those rich-kid friendships once she is out of their circle. Sucks, but it's the sad truth.
It makes much more sense to focus on improving your own fortunes than to hobble yourselves with outrageous tuition bills that you can't afford now and will be even less able to afford as she grows and her tuition rates and extracurricular pressures increase. Better for the whole family to focus on the future as a cohesive unit. The carousel of life spins more freely when everything's in balance.
I've saved the strongest words for last. It feels like you're using your child to gain entrance into a world you want to be part of, but cannot afford. Every bit of that feels wrong to me. I hope you will consider putting your child's actual needs ahead of your own perceived ones. Sorry, but this is a forum dedicated to financial freedom, not slavery to other's perceptions.
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Part of the issue with earning more money may be that the low rent is tied to income of a certain level. Since Seattle rents are sky-high, especially in neighborhood that are most friendly to being car-free, I am guessing OP and his wife would have to have a pretty significant income jump to pay free-market rents and then come out ahead. They need to do a lot of number-crunching to figure out how the money works best.
I agree, however, that more thought needs to be given to family goals here. What do you want most--to live in Seattle, to give your child an expensive education, to buy a house, to start your business, to have a job you love, to have a more solid benefits/time-off situation? Other posters are right--improving your position through Mustachianism is possible at any level but the big goals can be tough to achieve on a small income and multiple big goals are even tougher. Maybe it would make most sense to learn the business in Seattle but move somewhere smaller to start your own business--less competition, cheaper rents and property, etc. I do think you can achieve ONE goal, maybe more, but not all of them.
Some posters here criticize early childhood education in ways that I don't usually agree with, but I think you have to put serious thought into that tuition cost. People give the Seattle Public Schools a lot of grief, and it does vary by neighborhood, but in general the public schools are pretty decent (having moved to a city where the schools are REALLY doing a lot of heavy lifting, I roll my eyes at Seattle public school hysteria)
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Hey guys! First of all, thank you all so much for your comments and advice. There's a lot of you, but I'll try to address all of the topics here.
- Waldorf
This is actually much more affordable than preschool/daycare, and goes from 8 AM to 3 PM, rather than 11 AM to 2:30 PM, or what-have-you. Public school is out of the question this year because we told her that she would be going to Waldorf for another year. We've talked to her about it and we're not sure how to make the conversation not about money. Also, we would owe 50% of the tuition at this point if we cancelled ($4,160 total). I'm sure we could barter that out though, considering we are receiving income-based financial aid. I will talk to my wife again about having this conversation. However, I'm unsure what would happen with public - I didn't hear back from admissions after submitting the paperwork months ago, and I haven't been able to get a hold of anyone.
Also, we've moved since we submitted paperwork to the school district. We moved out of one school zone and into another. The one we used to live in goes from 7:55 to 2:05. The one we're in now goes from 9:45 to 3:45. If she were to attend the previous zone, our work schedules would have to change. This is most likely doable, but not without painful navigation, but more on that later.
- Previous Job
I left my previous field (which I was actually quite good at, receiving three promotions in three years, going from $12/hr to $22/hr) due to stress. In my most recent position as supervisor, the expectations were too damn high. I was overworked, disrespected, and I was unhappy to the point where I was considering seeing a professional. While I did have healthcare, retirement, and a huge savings, in the end it was not worth it. I understand that this could change depending on the employer, but I saw this as my opportunity to do something I've wanted to do for some time.
I am working on my photography to try to make it a side income, but it's a far reach. The field leaves me wanting more equipment all the time, and we all know that's not something I should do.
I have actually been working on learning coding at home, with the aspirations to do some app development for iOS and Android, or even become a web developer (which happens to be growing by 27% according to the BLS). Many of my customers are web or back-end developers and they've all spoken about how you don't need a formal education to succeed. About half of my customers are self-taught.
- Buying a House
I only mentioned this because the House always seems to be a measure of financial independence. And rightly so – with no mortgage or rent, that eliminates ~30% of your expenses.
- Amazon / Spotify / Adobe CC
I just went over our Amazon purchases, and we've been pretty darn good about it. We haven't purchased any books unless we couldn't get them from our super expansive library system (so we've purchased only a few books in the last couple of years, which were cookbooks). What we do buy a lot of is pet food, coffee filters, and the like. And yes, I do check out other websites and local places to make sure I'm not paying for convenience. Recently, I actually found that PetFlow and Chewy have our pet food for cheaper, so I switched to them (went with Chewy first for discount on first three orders, now I'm using PetFlow for discount on first three orders, then will switch back to Chewy, as it's $2 cheaper).
Spotify is mostly for work purposes, and because the commercials are always so dang loud! There's actually an app for Mac that will silence advertisements on Spotify. I will discuss with my wife about ditching this.
- Discover Card
The total balance was $2,000 at 0%. I feel like an idiot for not paying this off already, but it's been some time since we had debt, I completely forgot about getting rid of debt. (Don't laugh!) We only owe $800. I'll tell my bank to send a check for the remaining balance tomorrow!
- Coffee
One poster made mockery of working in coffee. What's wrong with that? Are you better because you have some sort of important job? Okay...
Anyways, I really enjoy working in coffee. In fact, this week I was offered a position with two different employers, both of which would be better financially and for my career in coffee and my workplace happiness. I went and worked a couple of short shifts at one, and tomorrow I am letting them know that I've chosen the other establishment, which happens to be the same place that my wife works.
My wife and I will be working together. They have already made accommodations around our availabilities so that there's no lapse, as they know we have a daughter. They just started offering health/vision/dental/401k, which are all pretty darn good (comparable to what I go from my $22/hr full time job), especially for "just a coffee job". This employer actually works with street involved youth, training them to become successful members of the workforce. So, still think coffee isn't a career worth pursuing? Beyond that, they purchase coffee direct from the farmers, ensuring they're getting paid at least 2x what they would if they were to use the market. I could go on forever about what I love about the coffee community...
- Seattle
We actually don't know that we want to stay in Seattle forever, or if it's where we want our future business to be. We feel it would do well here, but we also lived in nearby Tacoma for a year, which is much more affordable, has room for coffee shops, and is slated to be one of the fastest growing cities in America. We still talk about missing Tacoma. So, no, Seattle is definitely not the end-all be-all for us. :) However, with what we're doing right now, it's definitely where we should be, being car-free, in coffee, etc.
Thanks again everyone!
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wow - so much advice in this thread so I don't have much to add but you guys are missing one factor - they must be getting great coffee for free!
David do you have a suggestion for good Sumatra bean? or something similar?
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You are to be commended for discussing life choices with your young daughter, and she sounds like a precocious child, but do keep in mind she is only five, so the decision should ultimately be yours and your wife's. And why can't it be about money? If she can understand discussions about her schooling she can understand money. From as far back as I can remember I always knew that my parents were not wealthy and therefore we could not afford things like expensive toys, fancy vacations, elite schools, etc.
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You are allowing a child to make a massive financial decision for you. This is not mandatory. As a parent, you are allowed to tell your child that they will be starting at public school right now.
Young children do not know what is best for them. What would you say if your child was asking for a tattoo gun? Assume that they know best or that you know best?
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If this career is what you are going to do no matter what, I think you ought to leave Seattle. You're only ever going to be a little fish in a huge pond there.
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I don't even understand what you mean by " working in coffee". Are you trying to not say you manage a coffee shop wth does that even mean.
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You are allowing a child to make a massive financial decision for you. This is not mandatory. As a parent, you are allowed to tell your child that they will be starting at public school right now.
Young children do not know what is best for them. What would you say if your child was asking for a tattoo gun? Assume that they know best or that you know best?
A million times this. Heck, my parents didn't ask us kids our opinions on which country to live in, let alone choose our schools. My youngest sister was dropped not once, but twice, at age 3 and 7, in a foreign schooling system where she didn't even speak the language. School is school, you go where you're told. You make new friends.
Children are much more resilient than they are given credit for. Shielding them from having to switch schools *in the same city* does not do them any favors.
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You are allowing a child to make a massive financial decision for you. This is not mandatory. As a parent, you are allowed to tell your child that they will be starting at public school right now.
Young children do not know what is best for them. What would you say if your child was asking for a tattoo gun? Assume that they know best or that you know best?
A million times this. Heck, my parents didn't ask us kids our opinions on which country to live in, let alone choose our schools. My youngest sister was dropped not once, but twice, at age 3 and 7, in a foreign schooling system where she didn't even speak the language. School is school, you go where you're told. You make new friends.
Children are much more resilient than they are given credit for. Shielding them from having to switch schools *in the same city* does not do them any favors.
the OP is hiding behind his child "making the decision" its obviously his decision as well. he keeps making excuses for it.
The whole title of this post needs to be changed along with OPs attitude. it screams i'm not here to learn i'm helpless and dont want to change.
and coffee isnt something you're "in" you can be in law or in medicine but to say you're "in" coffee as a starbucks person who serves coffee to people is like trying to say i'm in buritto's ... really what do you do ... oh i make them at chipotle. love burritos ... hoping to open a burrito joint one day.
come up with something original. esp. in your city ... seattle. coffee shops have to be a dime a dozen. (they are a dime a dozen EVERYWHERE)
[MOD NOTE: This thread has been flagged for several different response posts denigrating the OP's choice. Just because you can't see a future "in coffee" doesn't mean the OP can't grow a business. Let's have some manners, here. Criticize, if you wish, but save the hyperbole and insult.]
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Of course, you are free to do what you love, which apparently is "coffee". however, if you want to all these other things like buying a house, opening a coffee shop or anything else that requires money, then you need to make a choice since obviously coffee is not paying you enough. If it was paying you enough, you wouldn't have filed for bankruptcy. I wouldn't give up on the school either if I thought it was better for my child. But then again I also would have sucked it up at the better paying job too. I don't understand how you were disrespected if you were given 3 promotions in 3 years? Honestly from everything you write, you sound like you feel entitled to having a low stress job even it means risking your family's future (same goes for your wife if she has the ability to do something else).
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Serving coffee is a perfectly respectable job. I get upset when we get resumes in and people laugh at the applicant having worked at Wal-Mart in college. There's not a damn thing wrong with serving coffee or working at Wal-Mart.
But - if there's any way to get back into your old field, maybe at a different place that has a culture that suits you better, I think you really need to consider that for the sake of your family. I think that starting a business is not going to happen now that you have a bankruptcy on your record.
I understand keeping your daughter in the school you agreed she could go to for another year. Children are people and promises made to them matter. Trust is important.
You're not making any money on your photography and your Adobe subscription needs to go. You can listen to commercials on Spotify (are you providing the music for your employer? If so, get that reimbursed). You don't need Amazon Prime. You don't need to go out to dinner, and you certainly don't need to go out for coffee when you're both coffee experts!
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Also, we've moved since we submitted paperwork to the school district. We moved out of one school zone and into another. The one we used to live in goes from 7:55 to 2:05. The one we're in now goes from 9:45 to 3:45. If she were to attend the previous zone, our work schedules would have to change. This is most likely doable, but not without painful navigation, but more on that later.
Your kid goes to the school for which you're zoned. That's how public schools work, by default, almost everywhere. (Allowing a kid to attend some school other than the one for which they are zoned is generally a weird exception.) Therefore, the previous school zone is irrelevant. Public school, in the zone you live in, from 9:45 to 3:45, is your new reality. Deal with it.
I am working on my photography to try to make it a side income, but it's a far reach. The field leaves me wanting more equipment all the time, and we all know that's not something I should do.
I have actually been working on learning coding at home, with the aspirations to do some app development for iOS and Android, or even become a web developer (which happens to be growing by 27% according to the BLS). Many of my customers are web or back-end developers and they've all spoken about how you don't need a formal education to succeed. About half of my customers are self-taught.
LOLWUT?
You want to own a coffee shop, then you want to be a photographer, then you want to be a software developer. MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!
If you want to be a photographer, forget about being a software developer. If you want to be a software developer, ditch all your photography gear right now and focus 100% on that. If you want to run a coffee shop, forget both of the others and go to business school or something.
I just went over our Amazon purchases, and we've been pretty darn good about it. We haven't purchased any books unless we couldn't get them from our super expansive library system (so we've purchased only a few books in the last couple of years, which were cookbooks). What we do buy a lot of is pet food, coffee filters, and the like. And yes, I do check out other websites and local places to make sure I'm not paying for convenience.
Regardless, you don't need Prime. What's wrong with regular 'super-saver' shipping? Nothing, that's what! Not to mention the possibility, however quaint it might seem, that you could actually go to a store to get your pet food.
Spotify is mostly for work purposes
BS. Quit making excuses and ditch it.
I'll tell my bank to send a check for the remaining balance tomorrow!
Good job!
One poster made mockery of working in coffee. What's wrong with that? Are you better because you have some sort of important job? Okay...
There's nothing wrong with working at a coffee shop (as long as you're making enough money at it to support your household without feeling the need to whine about the consequences of your choice). It was really the way you phrased it -- "in coffee" as opposed to "at a coffee shop" -- that was weird. Only in Seattle is coffee an industry unto itself rather than merely a subset of the fast food/restaurant industry.
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- Waldorf
This is actually much more affordable than preschool/daycare, and goes from 8 AM to 3 PM, rather than 11 AM to 2:30 PM, or what-have-you. Public school is out of the question this year because we told her that she would be going to Waldorf for another year. We've talked to her about it and we're not sure how to make the conversation not about money. Also, we would owe 50% of the tuition at this point if we cancelled ($4,160 total). I'm sure we could barter that out though, considering we are receiving income-based financial aid. I will talk to my wife again about having this conversation. However, I'm unsure what would happen with public - I didn't hear back from admissions after submitting the paperwork months ago, and I haven't been able to get a hold of anyone.
David:
Why don't you want to make the conversation about money? Money is the problem here. We all want the best for our children and ourselves, but their are monetary limitations. This could be a good lesson for her.
- Previous Job
I left my previous field (which I was actually quite good at, receiving three promotions in three years, going from $12/hr to $22/hr) due to stress. In my most recent position as supervisor, the expectations were too damn high. I was overworked, disrespected, and I was unhappy to the point where I was considering seeing a professional. While I did have healthcare, retirement, and a huge savings, in the end it was not worth it. I understand that this could change depending on the employer, but I saw this as my opportunity to do something I've wanted to do for some time.
You were unhappy in your previous job due to stress. In addition, you indicate starting a business is something you are considering. Starting a business is hard and very stressful with a high risk of failure.
If you like your job, that is wonderful. If you want to retire early (or do more than subsist), you need to increase your income and cut your expenses. Increasing income will almost certainly involve more stress at work. Cutting your expenses should be easy and a good opportunity to teach your daughter about money.
Good luck.
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You are to be commended for discussing life choices with your young daughter, and she sounds like a precocious child, but do keep in mind she is only five, so the decision should ultimately be yours and your wife's. And why can't it be about money? If she can understand discussions about her schooling she can understand money. From as far back as I can remember I always knew that my parents were not wealthy and therefore we could not afford things like expensive toys, fancy vacations, elite schools, etc.
I can't resist the urge to pile on the Waldorf dog pile. Five-year-old kids do NOT need fancy pants preschool or kindergarten.
In my mind, this is a perfect opportunity to teach your 5-year-old (and, let's be honest, yourself) some important lessons. The concept of scarcity. The concept of trade-offs--you gave up a significant amount of income in order to be happier at work (and therefore at home). The concept that "you can't have it all."
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I don't get the whole Waldorf thing. I mean, she's 5. My nephew is 5 and just started Kindergarten. He is a very bright 5 year old, yet he has no idea about types of schools, whether he goes to private, charter, public or if he is even in his zoned school. Kids do not make the decisions. You're the adult/parent. You don't even need to explain why - you have to switch her school and that's it. At 5, I really doubt they have any concept of the value of money other than it's required to buy stuff - so it doesn't matter whether you make it about money or not.
Can't wait til she wants a pony when she's 7.
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Weighing in on discussing finances with your daughter. She might not be old enough to fully understand money yet, but it is still important for her to know what kind of things you can and cannot afford. Growing up my parents were divorced and my dad got custody of me when I was nine. My mom and step-dad lived on welfare, in subsidized housing, and had no concept of financial responsibility. They always spent every single dollar that came into their hands and once a year bought a whole bunch of nice expensive gadgets and such (earned income tax credit!). My father ran his own plumbing business and took a salary that was actually less than what my step-dad made (when he was working) but he wasn't willing to apply for any entitlement programs and we simply made do with what little salary he was taking (around $300 per week). I was always aware of our financial situation and I knew not to ask for unnecessary "things" constantly. Also, when I got things I really wanted or needed they were a lot more special to me; in general I was a happier child and teenager than my half siblings. A perfect example that is similar to the Waldorf school is private flute lessons. I started playing the flute in 4th grade. Almost everyone I knew who stuck with it started taking private lessons in 5th or 6th grade. When I asked about lessons my dad sat me down and explained how much they cost and that it would not be in the budget; I would just have to practice more instead. When we got to high school I was the only one in the 1st row who didn't take private lessons, and I was always 1st chair (if you don't know about music, that is a big deal). I grew up very well adjusted, even though I didn't go to private schools and I knew my family's dismal financial situation, and I even knew that I would not be receiving a cent from my parents for college. I ended up going to a very expensive private university, receiving their maximum scholarships for undergrad and graduate school. I worked my way through to pay for my living expenses and I am now a very successful economist. My half siblings who grew up with my mom and never learned about finances or living within their means are not so lucky. They didn't go to college, don't understand the concept of hard work, and are simply continuing the cycle of poverty.
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- Waldorf
There's not much to understand, really. She was not old enough to attend kindergarten this last school year, and Waldorf – with tuition assistance – was more than $400 cheaper than daycare, and was only $100 more than what we would have had to pay for Seattle Schools' preschool, which was in a downtown building with not much outside time. We made our decision for that year. We've been flip-flopping about this coming year, which is obviously not a good thing. It's hurt us financially, and that's one of the reasons I'm laying it all out on the table here for you folks!
Taking my kiddo to camp right now. When I get home, I'll call the admissions office for Seattle Schools. If I remember right, they're not in-office until September. I put it on my calendar but can't seem to find it now. "/
- Coffee
Actually, working in coffee is a thing. And it's not only in Seattle. Look up the SCAA (http://scaa.org/), for instance. There are regional, national, and international competitions. My wife's employer paid for her to go to competition in Kansas City last year. Beyond that, there are so many different things that everyone is doing. It's never just coffee.
You don't have to understand it. But you also don't need to be an imbecile about it... MOD NOTE: It's tough when you are being criticised, try and take the higher road
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Thank you to everyone who is understanding and providing constructive feedback. I'll try to have a conversation with my little family this evening. Didn't get much time last night. :(
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you're taking your daughter to CAMP!?!?!?!?! is it FREE if so great move if not ... you cant afford this luxury.
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Seattleite here.
I'll echo what most of the others have said. You have a lot of wants, a lot of expenses, and not a lot of income. Something needs to compromise. You guys are very young. I don't deny that you'll want more to your existence, but you may need to work 2 jobs or a less than wonderful job for a while to get some things paid off and start getting ahead.
I will say, Chewy.com will deliver dog/cat food for free if it's over $49 I think. I use them and I'm very happy with their service and their autoship reminders.
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Actually, working in coffee is a thing. And it's not only in Seattle. Look up the SCAA (http://scaa.org/), for instance. There are regional, national, and international competitions. My wife's employer paid for her to go to competition in Kansas City last year. Beyond that, there are so many different things that everyone is doing. It's never just coffee.
You don't have to understand it. But you also don't need to be an imbecile about it...
I hear you, and I don't doubt you and your wife are good at your jobs, but I think it's understandable that making $24,000 a year "in" coffee sounds like a really fancy way to describe what's basically an entry-level food-service position.
Adding something constructive here, have you read MMM's 50 Jobs Over $50k Without a Degree lists? (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/) Most of them are attainable and surely at least one interests you.
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you're taking your daughter to CAMP!?!?!?!?! is it FREE if so great move if not ... you cant afford this luxury.
Well, they both work. In these circumstances, I'd assume that "camp" is basically a summer daycare that you pay for by the week. Every working family I know sense their kids to those kind of summer camps once they hit elementary school age.
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I'm going to go against the grain here and tell you that if your family really values the private K, I think it is okay. Especially if you plan on just one more year of it.
I have been a lifelong renter (now almost 37), and there are definitely perks. Jesse Mecham of YNAB recently said something along the lines of "there's nothing wrong with renting. You are paying for a roof over your head and outsourcing repairs and maintenance... it sounds quite posh, actually." I will admit, for me, there is perpetual on-and-off pressure that I should buy, this is primarily due to the "American Dream" connotations attached to home ownership. Another thought that puts my renting mind at ease... "did you really buy a house, or did you get yourself a job and a gardener/handyman?" Houses are work and money to maintain.
My husband is a trainer/qc manager at a coffee shop, and believe me, coffee is definitely something you can be "in," despite naysayers in the forums. I would say it sounds elitist to mock a career in coffee, but I think it's just a lack of knowledge on some posters' part to question it. DH was just at very large industry conference organized by the SCAA (specialty coffee association of america). The independent shop is just one little part of the industry. Before the shop, there are roasters, buyers, importers, farmers. There's a ton of sophisticated equipment involved- development, sales, repairs and maintenance of this specialty equipment is another way you can have a career in coffee. Working at a shop is a really great way to make connections in the community, too. It's a "third place" for a lot of people, and there are a lot of opportunities for networking.
I have to warn you, though, about opening your own shop. It is a shitload of work, really hard work, and from what I've seen, there are very small margins, I'm talking 1.8% to 5% IF you are doing things right. (Something like 60% fail in the first 3 years). Restaurants and cafes just have very small profit margins, so there is little room for error, and even if the shop looks like business is booming, costs for overhead can eat away your revenue so quickly. It's really tough. Do your homework before taking the leap. (How do I know this? I'm an accountant and currently keep books for a shop, plus I have for other small businesses in the past when I was in public accounting.)
What you need to do right now is really reduce your unnecessary spending. Lower your phone bills, get rid of things like spotify premium, adobe, prime. Try to find a better deal on internet. What are you spending on "household" and "health and beauty?" Can you cut some of that out? Your grocery bill could use a little work. Don't eat cereal, it is expensive and extruded or highly processed grains aren't good for you, anyway. Homemade oatmeal/granola is tastier and much better for you. What are activities? If you don't spend anything on dining out, good for you, that's something my family could be a lot better about.
FI is not out of reach. But you really have to tighten things up on the spending side in order to get there. And you are still young. If you like what you do, it's okay if FI takes a little longer than if you hate what you do and want to RE now.
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you're taking your daughter to CAMP!?!?!?!?! is it FREE if so great move if not ... you cant afford this luxury.
$50/day 3x a week.
Show me something more affordable? Or, would you like me to take the summer off with her?
I hear you, and I don't doubt you and your wife are good at your jobs, but I think it's understandable that making $24,000 a year "in" coffee sounds like a really fancy way to describe what's basically an entry-level food-service position.
Adding something constructive here, have you read MMM's 50 Jobs Over $50k Without a Degree lists? (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/) Most of them are attainable and surely at least one interests you.
That's a good point. My wife works in a lead position, and I'm moving to her employer in October as well, for more growth opportunities.
I have looked at that list. I was a Maintenance Supervisor for residential properties (fancy phrase for apartments) before I did coffee. That's always on the table, however it would also add expenses in the way of after-school child care. Also on that list of his is Wordpress Developer. I've been learning coding for a while now, and I'm almost to the point where I could build a Wordpress template. :) Someone earlier mentioned that I need to figure it out. I don't see anything wrong with having multiple hobbies and interests. I read, I do photography, I'm learning coding. The thing is that these things don't cost much money (photography certainly can, but I've made sure that I haven't spent any money on it other than the Adobe CC, which I'm looking into the alternatives for). Learning to code is free if you self-teach, and I'm learning to make more time for that on the side. That doesn't mean I'm going to quit my job and learn full-time, though. ;) I know of some people who have been able to do that.
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I'm going to ignore your expenses, because others are really discussing those and have very valid points.
Instead, I'm going to talk about other things. You seem to have 3 major financial goals in life:
1) Become financially independent one day
2) To own a house
3) To maybe start your own coffee shop business
I don't think you have the tools for that right now. You don't say what your education level is or what your previous job/career was. But for your goals, you need these things:
1) Money. Starting a business also requires money, so you don't even just need it for becoming FI or buying a house or even just to have more breathing room in your life.
2) Credit. If you just claimed bankruptcy 2 years ago, you're not going to be able to get a mortgage or a small business loan right now even if you had more money to your name. You need to, over time, build that financial trustworthyness so banks will loan to you.
3) Education. Running a coffee shop business doesn't just mean you know how to make a good cup of coffee or provide good customer service. Actually serving coffee will probably be a small part of your job if you truly become a business owner in the future.
4) Experience. I'll get more to that later though.
Here are my starting suggestions for getting those things:
- Can you get back into the previous field you were in? I don't care if it's not something you love. You need more income right now. Money is a tool. You need more money to get the things you want.
- I suggest dropping your daughter's schooling and instead use that money to go back to school yourself. Get some sort of business bachelor's degree, or if you have a bachelor's, then get an MBA. Even if your bachelor's isn't in business, you will be able to take some catch-up courses so the college/university will allow you in the MBA program. You don't have to go to school full-time. You could go part-time after work and/or on weekends. The reason I suggest this is it'll give you more education on business matters, but it'll also help you look more promising.
- Use that education to help you get a higher paying job *while you are working towards* building up your own business eventually. You can probably also get some good experience out of it that will give you MORE knowledge you will need when you open up that coffee shop. More income also means it's easier to buy a house and easier to save more money so you can become financially independent. DO NOT see more income as permission to start buying fancy cars and other unnecessary things that'll get you in debt. That would be throwing away a tool, and you don't want that.
This is going to take time. You must be patient. The goals you want to achieve are not achievable for you immediately. It'll take several years minimum working toward it. But it's not impossible.
I'm with Red Bird. You and your wife seem to be all over the place. You want everything, but none of the stress that goes along with it. You deliberately reduced your income, because you were unhappy however it looks like you did not reduce your standard of living. You are still living on your previous salary.
The two of you should sit down and figure out what your top priorities are. Do you want to be FI or own a coffee business? Both are great paths, but both will take a lot of work, time, and sacrifice. At this time, yes, you are going to have pick one over the other.
It sounds like neither of you are committed to staying in Seattle so I would take buying a house off the list.
I agree with everyone else that attending a Waldorf school is unnecessary expense at this age, however you seem dead set on it. So I would suggest you find a way to fund that monthly expense through some other means than your primary income. Get a second job, sell camera equipment, if her attending this school is THAT important to you then you should be prepared to do whatever it takes to keep her in there, however your current income cannot support it.
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I hear you, and I don't doubt you and your wife are good at your jobs, but I think it's understandable that making $24,000 a year "in" coffee sounds like a really fancy way to describe what's basically an entry-level food-service position.
I'm glad not everyone thinks I'm an "imbecile" making "a mockery" of the OP's career.
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I'm going to go against the grain here and tell you that if your family really values the private K, I think it is okay. Especially if you plan on just one more year of it.
I have been a lifelong renter (now almost 37), and there are definitely perks. Jesse Mecham of YNAB recently said something along the lines of "there's nothing wrong with renting. You are paying for a roof over your head and outsourcing repairs and maintenance... it sounds quite posh, actually." I will admit, for me, there is perpetual on-and-off pressure that I should buy, this is primarily due to the "American Dream" connotations attached to home ownership. Another thought that puts my renting mind at ease... "did you really buy a house, or did you get yourself a job and a gardener/handyman?" Houses are work and money to maintain.
We had a house for a year, which is one of the reasons we claimed bankruptcy, along with a car being totalled and some other things. :(
My husband is a trainer/qc manager at a coffee shop, and believe me, coffee is definitely something you can be "in," despite naysayers in the forums. I would say it sounds elitist to mock a career in coffee, but I think it's just a lack of knowledge on some posters' part to question it. DH was just at very large industry conference organized by the SCAA (specialty coffee association of america). The independent shop is just one little part of the industry. Before the shop, there are roasters, buyers, importers, farmers. There's a ton of sophisticated equipment involved- development, sales, repairs and maintenance of this specialty equipment is another way you can have a career in coffee. Working at a shop is a really great way to make connections in the community, too. It's a "third place" for a lot of people, and there are a lot of opportunities for networking.
I have to warn you, though, about opening your own shop. It is a shitload of work, really hard work, and from what I've seen, there are very small margins, I'm talking 1.8% to 5% IF you are doing things right. (Something like 60% fail in the first 3 years). Restaurants and cafes just have very small profit margins, so there is little room for error, and even if the shop looks like business is booming, costs for overhead can eat away your revenue so quickly. It's really tough. Do your homework before taking the leap. (How do I know this? I'm an accountant and currently keep books for a shop, plus I have for other small businesses in the past when I was in public accounting.)
Exactly the reasons I got into coffee. Sure, people can learn about the industry and open a shop without ever having worked in the industry, but I'm a hands-on learner. :)
What you need to do right now is really reduce your unnecessary spending. Lower your phone bills, get rid of things like spotify premium, adobe, prime. Try to find a better deal on internet. What are you spending on "household" and "health and beauty?" Can you cut some of that out? Your grocery bill could use a little work. Don't eat cereal, it is expensive and extruded or highly processed grains aren't good for you, anyway. Homemade oatmeal/granola is tastier and much better for you. What are activities? If you don't spend anything on dining out, good for you, that's something my family could be a lot better about.
FI is not out of reach. But you really have to tighten things up on the spending side in order to get there. And you are still young. If you like what you do, it's okay if FI takes a little longer than if you hate what you do and want to RE now.
Roger that! I've created a reminder to speak with my wife on all of these things tonight when I get home from work. Unfortunately, we are stuck in a contract with the phones. And that contract is on my father's family plan, so we can't have it bought-out by T-Mobile or anything. I'll look into our options there. :)
About the homemade cereal/oatmeal deal. We can't find affordable items to make this. We've price-checked and it always ends up ~$15/lb. to make! We have not checked CostCo yet, however, as we don't have a membership. But half of Amazon Prime would pay for a year membership to CostCo. The only issue there is that the nearest one is a 20-minute ride, and we can't carry much bulk items on our bikes. Our bike bags hold one full paper bag of groceries each, and we have four of those (two for each bike) and one of us hauls the kiddo. 20 minutes is no issue – just don't want to find out we don't have room on the bikes hah. We want to check it out though – I think we were planning for this weekend or next to go and see. Someone also just bought us a Vitamix, so we want to be able to buy bulk nuts and the like. :)
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Thank you!
I agree with everyone else that attending a Waldorf school is unnecessary expense at this age, however you seem dead set on it. So I would suggest you find a way to fund that monthly expense through some other means than your primary income. Get a second job, sell camera equipment, if her attending this school is THAT important to you then you should be prepared to do whatever it takes to keep her in there, however your current income cannot support it.
Why sell the camera equipment? I understand that it would provide a small boost to our income for the month, but all of it together would only go for around $300. And if I find an alternative to Adobe CC, then I can maintain my hobby for free.
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You want to own a coffee shop, then you want to be a photographer, then you want to be a software developer. MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!
If you want to be a photographer, forget about being a software developer. If you want to be a software developer, ditch all your photography gear right now and focus 100% on that. If you want to run a coffee shop, forget both of the others and go to business school or something.
Kind of off-topic, but I think there are a few good arguments against this attitude.
1) Software is eating the world and AI is coming for your job.
Any young person with the capacity to learn coding will benefit from spending time developing those skills.
Maybe coffee baristas will be automated away in the next decade... who knows.
2) Some interesting and profitable inventions exist at the intersection of low tech and high tech.
My BIL related an interesting phenomenon in plumbing.
apparently, when people say 'software is eating the world' it includes stuff like mom and pop plumbing outfits.
over the past decade, the "big guys" have deployed software systems that have driven small shops out of business.
now, you will always need a plumber to do the actual repair.
But the billing, supply chain management, scheduling, etc are now managed with software and have become a barrier to entry.
Try googling "plumbing software"... this didn't exist 10 years ago!
And it *should* happen in the coffee industry, if it hasn't already.
I'm thinking of an example like this-
http://www.roastertools.com/
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- Coffee
Actually, working in coffee is a thing. And it's not only in Seattle. Look up the SCAA (http://scaa.org/), for instance. There are regional, national, and international competitions. My wife's employer paid for her to go to competition in Kansas City last year. Beyond that, there are so many different things that everyone is doing. It's never just coffee.
You don't have to understand it. But you also don't need to be an imbecile about it...
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Thank you to everyone who is understanding and providing constructive feedback. I'll try to have a conversation with my little family this evening. Didn't get much time last night. :(
As others have noted, you need to increase your income. Instead of being down on the low income job, I am going to hopefully change the way you think about income.
Regarding working with coffee:
Have you considered looking at who in the coffee industry makes the most money? Looks like specialty coffee is pretty big industry: @$3-4B/year in the US. http://dailycoffeenews.com/2015/04/09/at-3-48-billion-coffee-jumps-to-second-place-in-u-s-specialty-food-sales/
I don't drink coffee so take the following questions as food for thought on how to drive income not on the coffee industry specifically:
-Are there opportunities to start selling coffee wholesale to shops?
-Where do you see entrepreneurs in specialty coffee making decent money (>$100K/yr)? Think beyond just coffee shop ownership. What about being some sort of supplier to a coffee shop (cups, marketing materials, etc)? Think about what coffee shops spend money on today.
-Ask the owner of your shop what he hates about his current vendors. You might be surprised to find that you could provide a solution to his issue.
-Are there coffee "sommelier" like in wine? What do they make?
-Assuming you know a tremendous amount about coffee, is there a way you could monetize this knowledge? Blog? Consulting to individuals? How about as some sort of event/party/team building for corporations?
-Since you are learning to code, what about offering some sort of digital service to a coffee shop (webdesign, some sort of ap, etc)?
-Talk to the owner of the shop where you work (or other shop owners in your network), what are their biggest problems? Calculate how much money is associated with said problems and figure out if you can offer value for some sort of service. IE Problem: "My line is too long and I see customers leaving the line without buying anything..." You figure out that the shop loses 20 customers each morning at $10/customer or $200/day in revenue. You also notice that you could rearrange the layout saving employees time which would shorten the line or you notice that the equipment is older and there's a faster model etc. By directly addressing their problem, you are adding value ($200/day of ~$75K/yr in rev) and can be compensated on that value.
-Similarly, how would you make the current place you work more profitable? If you have a decent idea, calculate how much money you could help the business make, and approach the owner with an offer to work on a commission basis where you would be compensated say 50% of whatever extra profits you bring (cost savings or increasing revenue).
-Could you "source" coffee beans for independent shops? Act like a broker between producers/wholesalers and retailers
-Could you be the person who certifies "fair trade"?
My overall point is people get paid on the value they bring. If you are focused on pouring coffee (no offense intended, not sure the correct high-end coffee term) and collecting money at a cash register, they you will always be paid a very low amount. Figure out how to add tremendous value to a business owner and you will increase your income exponentially. The higher value you bring to a business (in quantifiable $$$ terms) the more you can charge for your time whether as an employee or more commonly as an entrepreneur.
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You want to own a coffee shop, then you want to be a photographer, then you want to be a software developer. MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!
If you want to be a photographer, forget about being a software developer. If you want to be a software developer, ditch all your photography gear right now and focus 100% on that. If you want to run a coffee shop, forget both of the others and go to business school or something.
Kind of off-topic, but I think there are a few good arguments against this attitude.
1) Software is eating the world and AI is coming for your job.
Any young person with the capacity to learn coding will benefit from spending time developing those skills.
Maybe coffee baristas will be automated away in the next decade... who knows.
2) Some interesting and profitable inventions exist at the intersection of low tech and high tech.
My BIL related an interesting phenomenon in plumbing.
apparently, when people say 'software is eating the world' it includes stuff like mom and pop plumbing outfits.
over the past decade, the "big guys" have deployed software systems that have driven small shops out of business.
now, you will always need a plumber to do the actual repair.
But the billing, supply chain management, scheduling, etc are now managed with software and have become a barrier to entry.
Try googling "plumbing software"... this didn't exist 10 years ago!
And it *should* happen in the coffee industry, if it hasn't already.
I'm thinking of an example like this-
http://www.roastertools.com/
Bingo! Matt Perger, a huge name in the coffee industry, actually believes that baristas of the future will be less technical, and more service.
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You want to own a coffee shop, then you want to be a photographer, then you want to be a software developer. MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!
If you want to be a photographer, forget about being a software developer. If you want to be a software developer, ditch all your photography gear right now and focus 100% on that. If you want to run a coffee shop, forget both of the others and go to business school or something.
Kind of off-topic, but I think there are a few good arguments against this attitude.
1) Software is eating the world and AI is coming for your job.
Any young person with the capacity to learn coding will benefit from spending time developing those skills.
Maybe coffee baristas will be automated away in the next decade... who knows.
2) Some interesting and profitable inventions exist at the intersection of low tech and high tech.
My BIL related an interesting phenomenon in plumbing.
apparently, when people say 'software is eating the world' it includes stuff like mom and pop plumbing outfits.
over the past decade, the "big guys" have deployed software systems that have driven small shops out of business.
now, you will always need a plumber to do the actual repair.
But the billing, supply chain management, scheduling, etc are now managed with software and have become a barrier to entry.
Try googling "plumbing software"... this didn't exist 10 years ago!
And it *should* happen in the coffee industry, if it hasn't already.
I'm thinking of an example like this-
http://www.roastertools.com/
Bingo! Matt Perger, a huge name in the coffee industry, actually believes that baristas of the future will be less technical, and more service.
It's great to continue to work on big picture solutions and continue to learn. In the meantime, however, you have an income/expense problem. Most of the suggestions here, including the above, are focused on getting that solved. You can't afford to start a coffee shop until you solve those problems.
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http://www.roboticstomorrow.com/story/2016/03/cafe-x-robotic-barista/7866/
yeah there will be no need for them with machines on every corner that can do it. unless your plan is to buy a ton of these or develop your own i think youre about 20 years too late to the coffee shop teet.
the technical burista or however you spell the fancy name for someone who puts coffee in a cup will become non existant and replaced by dudes in trucks filling up the beans and milk in these machines.
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however you seem dead set on it. So I would suggest you find a way to fund that monthly expense through some other means than your primary income. Get a second job, sell camera equipment, if her attending this school is THAT important to you then you should be prepared to do whatever it takes to keep her in there, however your current income cannot support it.
[/quote]
Why sell the camera equipment? I understand that it would provide a small boost to our income for the month, but all of it together would only go for around $300. And if I find an alternative to Adobe CC, then I can maintain my hobby for free.
Getting rid of Adobe CC will not be enough to offset the cost of the tuition. You said yourself that being in photography tempts you to buy more stuff....
The field leaves me wanting more equipment all the time...
So the logical conclusion is to get rid of the thing that tempts you.
selling the camera equipment is just an example, if you are unwilling to sell the camera stuff to help fund your daughters education then find something else to sell, either stuff or things you can do. Find a second job, figure out how to immediately use your photography to bring in extra income, if you want to keep your daughter in the Waldorf school then you need to figure another way to finance it. At least it would only be temporary until she starts public school, then you can quite your side hustle.
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It's great to continue to work on big picture solutions and continue to learn. In the meantime, however, you have an income/expense problem. Most of the suggestions here, including the above, are focused on getting that solved. You can't afford to start a coffee shop until you solve those problems.
I know this. Hence why I'm here and listening. :)
Getting rid of Adobe CC will not be enough to offset the cost of the tuition. You said yourself that being in photography tempts you to buy more stuff....
The field leaves me wanting more equipment all the time...
So the logical conclusion is to get rid of the thing that tempts you.
selling the camera equipment is just an example, if you are unwilling to sell the camera stuff to help fund your daughters education then find something else to sell, either stuff or things you can do. Find a second job, figure out how to immediately use your photography to bring in extra income, if you want to keep your daughter in the Waldorf school then you need to figure another way to finance it. At least it would only be temporary until she starts public school, then you can quite your side hustle.
Ah, yes! Well, I'm not currently working on building a photography portfolio or trying to make money from it, so I'm not tempted to go get that lens that would better help me get a shot of Mt. Rainier or what-have-you. For now, I use it at home, practicing at least three times a week for about ten minutes. :) I'm not tempted to go get gear at this level.
the technical burista or however you spell the fancy name for someone who puts coffee in a cup will become non existant and replaced by dudes in trucks filling up the beans and milk in these machines.
There are a few schools of thought on this. You have these machines that put out crap coffee. You have Starbucks and Peet's and Seattle's Best that put out crap coffee. Those are the places that will go first. Then you have high-end specialty coffee. Some folks are willing to pay top dollar to dine on coffee, believe it or not. There's coffees (look up Geisha coffees) that sell for over $50/lb. green/unroasted. Roasted, they go for $50/8 oz bag. And believe it or not, the market is there for that.
So what I think we will see happen is a huge division between quick coffee and specialty coffee. That's a discussion for another forum, though! :)
edit: Just looked at Amazon while logged out. Looks like many of the items we get would have to be grouped with other items in order to get free shipping. Free shipping only for orders $49 or more. :( I feel like this would push us into a bad spending habit, as we often purchase one or two items at a time from Amazon, many of which cannot be found locally, or are cheaper on Amazon. It also saves a lot of time.
Thoughts?
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http://www.roboticstomorrow.com/story/2016/03/cafe-x-robotic-barista/7866/
yeah there will be no need for them with machines on every corner that can do it. unless your plan is to buy a ton of these or develop your own i think youre about 20 years too late to the coffee shop teet.
the technical burista or however you spell the fancy name for someone who puts coffee in a cup will become non existant and replaced by dudes in trucks filling up the beans and milk in these machines.
Jesus Christ, that is so fucking rude. What is wrong with you that you cannot be civil and constructive?
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http://www.roboticstomorrow.com/story/2016/03/cafe-x-robotic-barista/7866/
yeah there will be no need for them with machines on every corner that can do it. unless your plan is to buy a ton of these or develop your own i think youre about 20 years too late to the coffee shop teet.
the technical burista or however you spell the fancy name for someone who puts coffee in a cup will become non existant and replaced by dudes in trucks filling up the beans and milk in these machines.
Jesus Christ, that is so fucking rude. What is wrong with you that you cannot be civil and constructive?
Just imagine the types of customers we get sometimes! Thankfully, most of them know what they're paying for. But some folks – a few on this forum so far – just have no respect for folks. :( Apparently, they're off saving children in Africa while we're just throwing coffee into a cup. What's funny is that our coffee actually has tangible positive impacts on those kids in Africa. :)
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http://www.roboticstomorrow.com/story/2016/03/cafe-x-robotic-barista/7866/
yeah there will be no need for them with machines on every corner that can do it. unless your plan is to buy a ton of these or develop your own i think youre about 20 years too late to the coffee shop teet.
the technical burista or however you spell the fancy name for someone who puts coffee in a cup will become non existant and replaced by dudes in trucks filling up the beans and milk in these machines.
Jesus Christ, that is so fucking rude. What is wrong with you that you cannot be civil and constructive?
Agreed. I think some (not all) of the animosity towards OP working in coffee. From a consumer perspective, MMM's eschew coffee shops like the one OP works in.
I personally don't care if OP works as a barista or as an escort, the fact remains, they do not bring enough money to support their lifestyle.
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Roasted, they go for $50/8 oz bag. And believe it or not, the market is there for that.
So what I think we will see happen is a huge division between quick coffee and specialty coffee.
I think we could also see something like the end of the tulipmania in Holland. I'm not a coffee connoisseur though, so maybe I'm wrong. I do think that a strategy where you are focused on doing the same thing, but expecting people to pay more for it and therefore seeing a rise in your wages is short-sighted.
edit: Just looked at Amazon while logged out. Looks like many of the items we get would have to be grouped with other items in order to get free shipping. Free shipping only for orders $49 or more. :( I feel like this would push us into a bad spending habit, as we often purchase one or two items at a time from Amazon, many of which cannot be found locally, or are cheaper on Amazon. It also saves a lot of time.
The shopping cart is extremely convenient because it stores all of your items for you. Once I have enough items for free shipping, then I check out. But it also serves another purpose and that is it forces me to cool my heels when I'm in the middle of a clicking spree. Usually when I go back a day or two later, there's always something I remove from the shopping cart or at least "save for later".
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Roasted, they go for $50/8 oz bag. And believe it or not, the market is there for that.
So what I think we will see happen is a huge division between quick coffee and specialty coffee.
I think we could also see something like the end of the tulipmania in Holland. I'm not a coffee connoisseur though, so maybe I'm wrong. I do think that a strategy where you are focused on doing the same thing, but expecting people to pay more for it and therefore seeing a rise in your wages is short-sighted.
I'm sticking with coffee, at least for now. But that's why I'm also learning coding. :)
Just sent our balance payment for that Discover debt that was leftover from the bankruptcy. :) Just removed it from our budget and allocated it to the EF payments.
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MOD NOTE:
So many complaints! OP is looking for help, Kudos to those who are offering constructive thoughts and ideas. While "face punches" and being frank is part of our forums culture - personal attacks, and slamming the OP's occupation is not. Yes, OP needs to bring in more money, There are PLENTY of ways of doing that in the coffee industry. Let's keep the conversation constructive, just because something doesn't align with your personal values, doesn't mean you get to be an asshat.
OP, do you and your wife gets tips? Is this money being accounted for in your budget or just dribbling away as cash tips often do?
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edit: Just looked at Amazon while logged out. Looks like many of the items we get would have to be grouped with other items in order to get free shipping. Free shipping only for orders $49 or more. :( I feel like this would push us into a bad spending habit, as we often purchase one or two items at a time from Amazon, many of which cannot be found locally, or are cheaper on Amazon. It also saves a lot of time.
Thoughts?
Use a wish list until you get over $49.
Use Subscribe&Save for things that you need regularly. You get a small discount and can skip a shipment.
Share the Prime membership with a trusted family member.
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MOD NOTE:
So many complaints! OP is looking for help, Kudos to those who are offering constructive thoughts and ideas. While "face punches" and being frank is part of our forums culture - personal attacks, and slamming the OP's occupation is not. Yes, OP needs to bring in more money, There are PLENTY of ways of doing that in the coffee industry. Let's keep the conversation constructive, just because something doesn't align with your personal values, doesn't mean you get to be an asshat.
OP, do you and your wife gets tips? Is this money being accounted for in your budget or just dribbling away as cash tips often do?
Yes! All tips go into an envelope that we then deposit regularly. :) So yes, they are part of the budget.
edit: Just looked at Amazon while logged out. Looks like many of the items we get would have to be grouped with other items in order to get free shipping. Free shipping only for orders $49 or more. :( I feel like this would push us into a bad spending habit, as we often purchase one or two items at a time from Amazon, many of which cannot be found locally, or are cheaper on Amazon. It also saves a lot of time.
Thoughts?
Use a wish list until you get over $49.
Use Subscribe&Save for things that you need regularly. You get a small discount and can skip a shipment.
Share the Prime membership with a trusted family member.
Ah yes, Subscribe & Save! That's available for non-Prime members?
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I think the biggest thing that sticks out to me (besides Waldorf - if at all possible to get out of it for this year, I would absolutely do that. what you will pay in afterschool care would still be less), is the statement that you haven't made the planned $500 transfer to EF in the past few months and that you frequently spend more than you've planned on outings.
So you moved and that had some expenses associated with it. It happens. Now you need to buckle down and get your spending really under control. Personally, my husband and I budget every dollar. We came from the Dave Ramsey debt-payoff school, and budgeting this way was the best thing we learned. So we track every expense immediately (and manually) and we also check the tracker before going out to make a purchase to know how much we have to spend.
It sounds like your expenses as written are more aspirational rather than real limits on your spending. Maybe you guys need to consider a cash-only budget for a few months until you get the spending under control? It's important for you guys to identify whether you're going over because you're not planning ahead well and remembering expenses that will come up that month OR if you're just deciding to grab lunch out when you know you don't have a budget for it. I suggest going back through your last couple months of bank statements and trying to determine where exactly that $500 is going. It's a harsh wake-up call, but it is so helpful.
As for the coffee stuff, it sounds a lot like several people I know who are getting into local micro-brewing. They have to do apprenticeships and they make very little for several years until they can make their own brews. I think it can be really helpful in these situations to look for people in the field whose careers you would like to imitate and ask for mentorships or just mirror their moves so you can try and move up in the industry.
Finally, I think it's helpful to change your attitude from "we can't ever do this thing because of x, y, z" into "we want to do this thing how do we overcome obstacles x, y, and z."
For example, you say:
About the homemade cereal/oatmeal deal. We can't find affordable items to make this. We've price-checked and it always ends up ~$15/lb. to make!
This is very confusing to me. Do you have any other local grocery stores closer than costco and with no membership fee? Maybe not, I don't live in Seattle. But steel cut oats are very cheap. So maybe you can't get to the store for it, how can you overcome that obstacle: CHEAP OATMEAL (https://jet.com/product/detail/098e7c7dbe6742399cd0f7f04718e934?jcmp=pla:ggl:gen_jd_food_beverages_tobacco_a3:food_items_grains_rice_cereal_oats_grits_hot_cereal_a3_top:na:PLA_344688900_23648794260_pla-154175885820:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&ds_c=gen_jd_food_beverages_tobacco_a3&ds_cid=&ds_ag=food_items_grains_rice_cereal_oats_grits_hot_cereal_a3_top&product_id=098e7c7dbe6742399cd0f7f04718e934&product_partition_id=154175885820&gclid=Cj0KEQjw57W9BRDM9_a-2vWJ68EBEiQAwPNFK6OaGog4OzZ9wvNZ1NY878XtNdOUKl_psAIvYNwFuRAaAvw-8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds). I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that it would be $15/pound to make oatmeal?
So just in general, try and tackle these spending issues as if they are a challenge that you and your wife are going to conquer together. You've got plenty of time to increase your income, but start today changing your attitude toward spending. There is always an excuse to spend or not save or to claim you're an exception, but they doesn't help you reach those financial goals any faster.
ETA: I don't care if you don't want to eat oatmeal. I hate oatmeal and I love name brand Honey Nut Cheerios. I just got two family size boxes for $1.50 each and they'll each last two weeks for me (and occasionally the husband when his eggs are gone), so that's $3 for a month of breakfasts (plus milk). It's not about the oatmeal, it's about the "defeated before we begin" attitude.
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Other people have already said it but I will reiterate: You need to bring more money in. (right, right, easier said that done). Honestly I think you have a decent handle on your expenses. We can debate paying for Kindergarten all day long, but your kid will be out of kindergarten and into public school before that debate is settled. On the other hand bringing in more money will have a compounding positive effect years into the future. Can your wife look for a higher-paying job? Just as a quick example, Costco pays around 17$/hr for cashiers in Seattle, WA. If she has any education/training then she should be able to find something ever more remunerative. I definitely understand the importance of working a job you enjoy, but you took an enormous pay cut to get that. You need to be seriously looking at ways to bump your salary up, whether that be getting more skills, negotiating for more, or finding a different job. Best of luck to you.
What I don't understand is why OP took the lower paying job to begin with, when they clearly can't afford it at this point. It seems to me like people sometimes feel entitled to a job that they love. With double the salary, this conversation would be much different. What type of planning went into changing jobs? I guess it doesn't really matter at this point, just something I wonder about in general when I see these types of posts. However, like another poster mentioned, maybe OP would consider getting a higher paying job or a second job temporarily until the debt is paid off and the EF is where they want it. If paying for preschool is that important, the second job or higher paying job could make it feasible. Although, as another person commented, I'd be interested in hearing what the after school care costs would be if they did cut the Waldorf school.
This was pretty much what I was going to say. You don't quit a high paying job for a lower job, and then say "whoops" or "darn" I can't pay my bills.
Go back to the higher paying job. Or get a second job. Keep the higher paying job and do coffee on the side. (I know plenty of entrepreneurs who have gotten into: coffee, wine, beer, vodka, quilting, etc. Some with long term success, some not. It varies.)
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First of all, genuine kudos to the OP for engaging and listening to the comments despite some of the jerks.
One poster made mockery of working in coffee. What's wrong with that? Are you better because you have some sort of important job? Okay...
There's nothing wrong with working at a coffee shop (as long as you're making enough money at it to support your household without feeling the need to whine about the consequences of your choice). It was really the way you phrased it -- "in coffee" as opposed to "at a coffee shop" -- that was weird. Only in Seattle is coffee an industry unto itself rather than merely a subset of the fast food/restaurant industry.
I agree with this, and I absolutely have no judgement for whatever path you choose. HOWEVER, I think it should be pointed out that right now you are *not* "supporting your household" in this career. You declared bankruptcy, are receiving housing assistance, and are receiving school tuition assistance. I understand that you're not going to turn these things down when they are available to you, but I would hope that a serious goal of yours will be to become independent from them. BEFORE owning a house, starting your own business, paying for private school, etc. There is no reason for the government, the school, and your previous creditors to be supporting you when you are fully capable of making a respectable income on your own. I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive, and perhaps it is off-topic, but I think that is something that is being ignored here. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Tacoma sounds like a great idea. I have a friend who opened up a brewery in Salem, OR and it has done outstandingly well. Similar to Seattle's coffee scene, Portland's craft beer scene was overflowing, but nearby Salem has a mere 3-4 local breweries for its equally-beer-loving population! Seems like the Tacoma coffee scene will be a great opportunity for you in the future if you are able to gain the knowledge and resources to start your own business.
I also support the coding hobby, especially if you can find a way to start making money off of it ASAP. Work on a few sites for some friends for free, build a portfolio, then start trying to see if anyone you know could use and would be willing to pay for some help. There are tons of self-employed folks and small business owners who have a need in this area.
Best of luck to you. I hope you soon realize how much you truly are in control of your own lifestyle, finances, and future.
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I left my previous field (which I was actually quite good at, receiving three promotions in three years, going from $12/hr to $22/hr) due to stress. In my most recent position as supervisor, the expectations were too damn high. I was overworked, disrespected, and I was unhappy to the point where I was considering seeing a professional. While I did have healthcare, retirement, and a huge savings, in the end it was not worth it. I understand that this could change depending on the employer, but I saw this as my opportunity to do something I've wanted to do for some time.
I'd like to add that there is a benefit here to learn push back. Especially at your age. I'd say at your age, my job was similar. I was a hard-charging type-A person. I work in an industry (engineering/ manufacturing) that will happily take all you have to offer and demand more. It was around my late 20s when I learned to "push back" because: I was very good at my job.
I was not ever at a risk for getting fired or laid off because I was one of the best. So, overworked, disrespected, unhappy, 50 lbs overweight (yep yep yep, being female in tech suuuucks). "I need you to work 6x12 this week." "Fine. By the way, next week my parents are visiting, and I won't be here, and I'm not taking vacation. You will pay me."
And then just more "give and take". Sometimes it was leaving early on a Friday to make up for the longer hours worked. As I got older and moved up, I continued. When disrespected, I made it clear that it was unacceptable. If necessary, I went up the chain. When given unrealistic expectations, I was honest with management about what was reasonable. If they said "do it anyway", I did my best. Yes, there were a few years of management haranguing everyone for not meeting deadlines (that THEY set without our input on timelines and support we needed). I learned to (mostly) let it roll off my back. I did my best.
But again, I was good at my job, and they knew it. They could get mad, yell, and pressure me. All I can do is my best. (This was at several different jobs.)
I'm just suggesting you try and learn coping mechanisms with shitty bosses, because they are everywhere.
And one more thing to everyone else: coffee is a thing! I have a local friend who owns 3 coffee houses, and they serve a little food and beer/wine too.
Lastly, Waldorf: I wouldn't do the extra year, but if you can't get into the public school by now it's moot. But summer camp people - even preschools and such like Waldorf, or other schools - some of them CLOSE over the summer (completely) and others at least close for a week or two. This has been true for both my boys and every place they went. So, I had to have my 4 year old in summer camp for a week because daycare was closed. He starts preschool in Sept ($1200 a month, and don't harangue me, this is CHEAP here. I've only found a few places cheaper, and they have a long waitlist. The only thing cheaper is the church based ones. In any event, preschool is cheaper than daycare.)
Even his preschool closes for a week every year, which happens to be the week before kindergarten. So we will need a week of camp next year.
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This is very confusing to me. Do you have any other local grocery stores closer than costco and with no membership fee? Maybe not, I don't live in Seattle. But steel cut oats are very cheap.
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ETA: I don't care if you don't want to eat oatmeal. I hate oatmeal and I love name brand Honey Nut Cheerios. I just got two family size boxes for $1.50 each and they'll each last two weeks for me (and occasionally the husband when his eggs are gone), so that's $3 for a month of breakfasts (plus milk). It's not about the oatmeal, it's about the "defeated before we begin" attitude.
Agreed. When I buy cold cereal, I often pay $4/box and $3 for a gallon of milk to go with it. Since I eat large portions, this often clocks in at over a dollar per serving. You can ABSOLUTELY beat that. I often buy groceries in downtown Seattle, and I guaran-damn-tee you that a large container of store-brand minute oatmeal is less than $3 and has a LOT more servings. Buy a large container of store-brand raisins, dried cranberries, chopped almonds, or whatever else sounds good, add a squirt of honey or a lump of brown sugar or a splash of cream. If you can't make a simple bowl of oatmeal for under $0.25, you are not being creative enough.
I think this is really all about attitude and perspective. It sounds to me like you are "pricing out" the ability to make your own cereal exactly the way that Kellogs would make it, with all the bells and whistles, and if you can't beat their price, you'll just throw your hands up and keep spending money you can't afford to spend. Instead of replacing what you buy now with an exact replica, simplify it and buy a more optimized version of that thing. Apply this thinking to all of your purchases. 1) can you skip buying it entirely? 2) if not, is there a simpler/cheaper version you could substitute?
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It's great that you found a job that you actually enjoy, most never have that! I haven't found that myself but hoping I do even if it means lower pay. I think if you cut out certain expenses (everyone had touched on those already) and get your spending as low as possible, then it's doable in time. Pay off the discover bill, cut back on expenses, save a bit more up in your emergency fund and start dumping all you can in an IRA or similar. Maybe taking a side job 'hustle' would help. We do lawn mowing on the side, we are making an extra $300 a month but hoping to raise that. Anything extra helps! Good luck!
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After your kid is in public school, if you can save the $832, and the $100 that was going towards discover, plus the $500 you budget for saving, and ditch spotify, adobe, prime, and cut phone and household/health/beauty in half, you could be saving over $1,500 per month, which is about 1/3 of your income. Not too shabby. This is doable. Get through this year of school and aim high. Take your YNAB budget balances seriously.
It shouldn't cost $15/lb to make a homemade granola type cereal. Buy ingredients in bulk. Oats are really inexpensive. Or just eat a bowl of oatmeal with a side of fruit and nuts and a glass of milk.
It's not "only in Seattle" that coffee is an industry. I'm in PA, outside of Philly, and working "in coffee" is a thing in many urban parts of the country where there is a demand for specialty coffee.
I don't get why it is a problem that OP is getting whatever assistance if his income allows him to qualify for it. Many MMM plan on getting healthcare subsidies in RE, and manipulating income to do so.
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To lose the Adobe CC subscription for now, try GIMP, a free graphic and photo manipulation software. It's available to download here:
https://www.gimp.org/
I've only used it once, but a developer (not a designer, mind) recommended it to me. I'm a professional designer and artist, so I've used Adobe software throughout my career. I wasn't thrilled when Adobe initiated their monthly subscription policy, so if I end up using CC as a freelancer, I'll do so begrudgingly.
Another option would be to find an affordable, packaged, older version of the Adobe software you need and install it on your machine.
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- Waldorf
It's never fun to tell someone you love that you were wrong and that you cannot make something happen that you promised.
Sometimes it has to be done anyway.
Not sure this is absolutely one of those times, but keep that in mind. Maybe you'll just have to suck it up and waste a year's worth of extra savings in order to keep this promise. At the very least, make sure you don't make any more promises that are not in line with your and your family's long term interests.
- Previous Job
I left my previous field (which I was actually quite good at, receiving three promotions in three years, going from $12/hr to $22/hr) due to stress. In my most recent position as supervisor, the expectations were too damn high. I was overworked, disrespected, and I was unhappy to the point where I was considering seeing a professional. While I did have healthcare, retirement, and a huge savings, in the end it was not worth it. I understand that this could change depending on the employer, but I saw this as my opportunity to do something I've wanted to do for some time.
In general, people do not get 3 promotions in 3 years AND have their wages almost DOUBLED if they are not thought well of by their management
(Maybe in some old school union contracts.)
So I'm seriously not understanding the "disrespected" comment.
As for the comment "as my opportunity to do something I've wanted to do for some time", I have some questions.
You mentioned bankruptcy not too far back. Was that also because you made choices you wanted to do for some time?
If it is, it's time to learn some impulse control. Serious impulse control. "Because I want to..." is not always a valid justification.
I am working on my photography to try to make it a side income, but it's a far reach. The field leaves me wanting more equipment all the time, and we all know that's not something I should do.
If you can't find a way to make money with the equipment you have, you are unlikely to ever do so.
Lots of iconic photos have been taken with less capable equipment than you now have...
I have actually been working on learning coding at home, with the aspirations to do some app development for iOS and Android, or even become a web developer (which happens to be growing by 27% according to the BLS). Many of my customers are web or back-end developers and they've all spoken about how you don't need a formal education to succeed. About half of my customers are self-taught.
Focus your efforts. Learning to code well enough to make a living at it is no simple matter. It will take a huge amount of your time or a real skill at interviewing well. Either way, expect to have to work crazy-long hours to make up for your lack of knowledge if you get a job. Since that isn't something that you liked very much in the past, I suspect you won't like it in the future either.
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What is the path from where you are (pouring coffee, basically the lowest paid/entry level position available in the coffee industry) to where you want to be? Because if you're good at making coffee, that's great. Doing more of it isn't going to help you own a coffee shop, though, because there's an inexhaustible supply of new college grads looking for a first job who are also pretty good at making coffee, or can be trained to be in a couple of weeks.
What I'm trying to say is this: If you want to own a coffee shop (or any other business), what makes you think working at a dead-end entry level job in *someone else's* coffee shop and doing the same thing this year you were doing last year is going to get you there? If you're making $24k after working this job for any significant period of time, that tells me that management doesn't value you enough to give you a raise/more responsibility, or that your skills aren't in fact worth very much in the marketplace. That's not a knock on making coffee, or your skill at doing it - but the world doesn't value what you're doing enough to give you the income/life you want.
You can wail and gnash your teeth about that, or you can take your destiny in your own hands and do something else until you can come back to the coffee industry from a position of strength (ie, with money to your name so you're not living paycheck to paycheck). Personally, I'd go ask for my old job back. Double the pay, and a history of getting raises = something that the world actually wants and will pay for. You might not like it much. Tough. You can come back to coffee in 5 years and actually (maybe) make money paying some other sucker to pour them.
You need some kind of actual plan if you want to get out of this rut, basically. It sounds like you are just sort of stumbling along, periodically being tripped up by various small misfortunes that cause you undue hardship because you've chosen to work for peanuts.
Another vote for ditch the Waldorf, too.
-W
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OP, I'm sorry if you were offended by anything I wrote. Good luck with your life choices. I'm done with this thread.
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As far as coffee, my best friend started a small batch coffee roasting company out of his garage & 5 years later is making a killing. He's a one man show but started from nothing (he was a bus driver) so I just gotta say there's a future in coffee! His is amazing. His accounts are local healthy markets & farmers markets. He also does all this out of his garage (zoned properly).
As far as any financial advice, I too had a hair on fire situation that forced me to make painful decisions on stuff like A prime & Pandora one plus sell any fancy unneeded gear along with tracking every single penny spent. Seriously every penny. I'm here to report it can get turned around one day at a time. Don't stop your coffee dream, :)
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
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Wow, that first page of comments was ... uncharitable to be polite, just dripping with prejudice. And now followed with a non-apology (just because it starts with "I'm sorry" doesn't mean it's an apology).
To address a few of the things people are taking issue with:
- The old job was $22/hr, twice minimum wage, perhaps limited upside, and starting to cause health issues. I see no problem jumping to an entry-level position in a field you're more passionate about. But yeah, you're going to need a solid plan to spend less for now and find ways to eventually make more in your field.
- I totally understood being "in coffee" in Seattle. It's like being in gambling in Las Vegas: there are lots of jobs and it's the center of the entire support industry. I really liked the comment listing other jobs in the industry and opportunities to stand out and move up (what I call upside here), I hope the OP already knew most of that. I also think it is a growing industry, and getting in and innovating could be a good move. I really liked the suggestion of finding something at the intersection of your interests: software or photography for the coffee industry.
- I would stick with the Waldorf preschool for one more year. Can't believe people would criticize finding high quality child care for barely over the cost of regular child care--I would call it frugal. This year you do have the option of free public school, so you can see where people are coming from, but the Waldorf still has value. Again, it will cost, but it's a family choice, and I have no problem with kids giving input.
- I see photography as a cheap hobby as long as you don't buy more equipment. Learn to use what you have with the limitations it has--some say that makes you a better photographer. Photoshop can go both ways. You can certainly do basic stuff in gimp, so download and try it out. But if you do advanced work, Photoshop is way better. However, I wouldn't bother to try to make money with it, that always seems like a lot of work with not much reward. Unless you can find a new angle (pun intended) that hasn't been exploited already.
- Coding is the same: great to learn, a lot more learning and work before you can earn decent money for your hours. My wife made websites for a while, but everybody wanted something fancy and custom without wanting to pay her for the hours. Then they called her up every time they broke something and expected her to fix it for free--and of course you don't want your reference website to give you bad feedback/reputation.
- the OP followed your advice and got rid of the discover debt, but it turns out it was a 0% deal. Still, I guess it's better that it's gone now, you weren't going to get rich off the interest on your emergency fund.
- phones: several years ago I learned about MVNOs here on the forums and switched from $150 ATT to puretalk $15 family plan. It doesn't use wifi like republic, it actually uses e same ATT cell network. Note that $15 is a base price, we pay $5-$10 more per month if we have a lot of usage (rarely), and there is no data plan (they do offer one around $40 last I looked. I could probably stat a thread about no-data being the next mustachian thing to do. Anyway, OP said he was still on contract, so see how much it costs to get out--you could have it covered in a few months. Even if you have to buy unlocked phones, used phones are cheap and you'll still be ahead after a few more months.
Best of luck to the OP.
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In general, people do not get 3 promotions in 3 years AND have their wages almost DOUBLED if they are not thought well of by their management
(Maybe in some old school union contracts.)
So I'm seriously not understanding the "disrespected" comment.
As for the comment "as my opportunity to do something I've wanted to do for some time", I have some questions.
You mentioned bankruptcy not too far back. Was that also because you made choices you wanted to do for some time?
I should have said two promotions and one move to another company for a supervisor role. I just kept it short is all. I went from a west coast company to an international one. It was managed way differently, and my manager actually ended up leaving shortly after me.
The bankruptcy. We purchase a house. We made the mistake of not understanding the neighborhood as well as we thought we had. We ended up on multiple occasions having to chase off intoxicated vagrants, calling the cops because of a woman running up the street away from two men with a bat, a woman pounding on our door in the middle of the night saying her boyfriend was trying to kill her, etc. Also, despite having gotten a home inspection (we did not do a sewer scope), there were a lot of money pits that we had to face. In the first week of being in the home, my coworkers and I had to clear the main drain pipe of wet wipes that the guys who flipped the house shoved down there. Winter hit, and we realized that the central air that was brand new was not powerful enough to heat the tiny 750 sq. ft. house, partially thanks to the old insulation. Our first power bill was over $700. So we got a pellet stove, and that ended up not working out well. We got awesome room heaters that worked decently well, but still not enough to bring the house over 62ºF. Our kitchen floor started sagging and we found that the corner joist was in sever disrepair. At the same time, I got into a car accident that totalled our one vehicle. We used a line of credit that we had to purchase another one. We then found out that we had a carpenter ant colony in our living room wall and our kitchen wall.
We finally had enough, and we had to call it quits. We were doing so well before buying that house, too. We owned our car, we had scores over 800, no debt for over two years, had healthcare, etc.
It's great that you found a job that you actually enjoy, most never have that! I haven't found that myself but hoping I do even if it means lower pay. I think if you cut out certain expenses (everyone had touched on those already) and get your spending as low as possible, then it's doable in time. Pay off the discover bill, cut back on expenses, save a bit more up in your emergency fund and start dumping all you can in an IRA or similar. Maybe taking a side job 'hustle' would help. We do lawn mowing on the side, we are making an extra $300 a month but hoping to raise that. Anything extra helps! Good luck!
Thanks!
As far as coffee, my best friend started a small batch coffee roasting company out of his garage & 5 years later is making a killing. He's a one man show but started from nothing (he was a bus driver) so I just gotta say there's a future in coffee! His is amazing. His accounts are local healthy markets & farmers markets. He also does all this out of his garage (zoned properly).
As far as any financial advice, I too had a hair on fire situation that forced me to make painful decisions on stuff like A prime & Pandora one plus sell any fancy unneeded gear along with tracking every single penny spent. Seriously every penny. I'm here to report it can get turned around one day at a time. Don't stop your coffee dream, :)
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Thanks so much! I home-roasted for over a year and received a lot of great reviews!
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Where we want to be in coffee in the future?
Well, in four years, we would like to be able to start laying the ground work on a solid business plan, have a good amount of savings to show investors that we're serious, and both be in management/production/buyer positions.
We did the math. If our financial situation doesn't change at all other than getting rid of the Waldorf expense, and keeping our spending under control, we could save $68,000 in four years...
EDIT: We have been exploring using different bank accounts (we currently use Simple.com). We're now in the process of signing up with Bank of Internet and Capital One 360. Bank of Internet could get us 1.25% if we use the debit card for everything. Our Capital One credit cards provide 1% cash back. Capital One 360 has .75% savings rate. So it depends which one we like better for features, I suppose. :)
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Another one weighing in on the Waldorf preschool/daycare. It would be a ludicrous expense if one parent didn't work but that's not the case here - it's high quality child care. My youngest daughter went to a Montessori preschool day care that provided a great early education and was actually in line with lesser quality day care options in my town. Agreed the Waldorf is a big expense, but it's just for another year and your child will transition well to public school with good skills.
It's brave to lay out income and expenses to this group, feedback and face punches are freely given here. Ya ask for opinions, ya get them. The OP has done a great job listening to all that's been offered, even while being pretty beaten up. Kudos to you, OP.
I also work in a "lifestyle" type of industry providing goods and services that no one actually needs but in my case, I own the business. It's something I enjoy doing (working with indoor tropical plants). My buy-in (of an existing business) was not crazy expensive and I've built the business and employ two part time people who don't make huge salaries, but I do my best and they enjoy their work. I'd hesitate opening any sort of enterprise that is open to the public, especially a coffee shop where people will camp out all day with a $2 coffee just to hog up the free wifi. Artisanal coffee is most definitely a "thing", while it seems crazy to many of us to spend huge amounts for tea, wine or as in the case of the OP's dreams, coffee, some people will spend for the very best.
Since others have covered, and the OP has started to work on, expenses, I'll chime in with what seems to be the general consensus that more income definitely would benefit this household to manage debt, the ongoing day-to-day and the wish to become FI. OP, you live in Seattle. Home to Microsoft, Amazon, and second home to Facebook, Google, et al. Not going to bring Starbucks into the conversation for obvious reasons :) . The big tech companies have mega food service opportunities for their employees. Coffee must be a huge part of the experience. Would there be a way you could market yourself to one of those firms for an in-house position? You could do something you liked for people who would appreciate your efforts. You'd earn a decent - not huge - salary, but have benefits, a 401k, stock options and the like. With your wife's current job, and the bumped up salary from a more corporate position, you'd be in far better shape. And you wouldn't need to give up your other dream of hand selected, green or roasted beans. I really liked PP's sharing of the friend who does small batch in his garage and markets to farmer's markets, and you could even sell on the internet or B2B. Just my thoughts, hope some of it's helpful.
What you do have going for you is youth, a seemingly solid marriage, a sweet baby girl and the ability to work hard and follow your dreams. I wish you and your family all the best. I think you'll go far.
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Interesting discussion, but as a foreigner I cannot really comment on much of the coffee in Seattle and school/daycare options. A few things however stand out to me:
First - it's very easy to get up in the day to day stuff. Finding the real motivation, the WHY can really help in making the day to day decions. "Does buying service X get me closer to my goal?". Just by starting this thread, you have made a very important step showing that you're thinking about it. Unlike many others, you also talk with your spouse about it - great job!
You mention that you cannot find your calendar? I hope I don't misunderstood that, but you most probably have a very good calendar in your e-mail service, available both in your phone and on your computer. It can also send you reminders through e-mails and notifications when needed. I'm personally gmail and google calendar. If you ever think about doing business, having a good grip on the calendar is a must no matter what busiess you're in. And as the kid grows, I'm sure she won't have less things that would go on your calendar. ;)
For coding and computer stuff. This can be a very good way of making money, but in addition to the technical skills there are two skills needed to make money here - communication and business skills. Depending on what setup you do, the degree of the needs may vary but you got to remember that you compete with thousands of cheap workers from China and India if you just rely on written specs and submitting work online like on https://www.upwork.com/ ... by being in the same city as the client, you have a better chance of understanding their real needs and making the client happier with the results. I personally went the business way and together with some friends started a software company in a specialized niche. Good money, but absolutely not stress free. And these days, I just push papers around, no technical work left for me...
For photography - it's a fun hobby, and it is possible to make money. Just do remember that there are SOO MANY people out there trying to do the same thing meaning that the pricing is sort of a race to the bottom. I think you really need to be dedicated to make enough money to make a difference in your life. I would say that if you want to take pictures for others, the success factors would be something like 10% equipment, 30% skills and 60% sales...
But on the other hand if you just like to do it, why not try to make money? Selling stock photo online and editing others pictures may not give much money, but more than nothing.
https://contrastly.com/popular-stock-photography-sites/
https://www.fiverr.com/categories/graphics-design/buy-photos-online-photoshopping
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My god we are a passionate crowd aren't we?
Mr OP, kudos for being here. We tend to be harsh because many have already gone through years of painstakingly reorganising their lives and now have it all on autopilot. Many forget that you are essentially on Day 1 of this journey, still in the "oh-my-god-we-might-be-in-a-fucking-deep-hole-what-the-fuck-do-I-do-before-I-curl-up-in-a-ball-and-die" phase
Pick one thing a week or fortnight to try and change, embed the habit and then move on to the next item. You won't succeed trying to do everything at once.
Come back to this thread in 3 months and give us a happy update.
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A couple things from 2 pages of the thread;
1) Starbucks will not fail anytime in the near future (sorry). Their coffee is crap and their fancy drinks aren't anything coffee related but they appealed to the mass market in a genius way... And that's ok. The thing that makes the smaller coffee shops successful is that they can provide a different experience and better coffee than a brand with millions of stores. Starbucks isn't your competition, all the other hipster coffee shops are.
2) What are you learning about the process at your current job? I ask out of genuine coffee curiosity as a home roaster/caffeine aficionado myself.
3) Just to relate this somewhat back to money: I'm all for finding a job that is low stress and you love but you cannot argue the importance of having money either. Sometimes taking a low paying low stress job can actually create more stress outside of work because you have no money. Plus one to the 20 other people that side pick up a side gig.
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Welcome to the forums! Luckily it is advertised as a place where facepunching is abundant. You are on an early retirement forum, so your goals might be different - but there's room for all kinds here.
Yikes, that's quite a stream of bad luck with the house and car accident!
Obviously some posters don't understand Waldorf education. It is practically the opposite of Montessori and has a bit of a cult like following, kinda like a religion - so hard to change people's mind on it. My kids were involved in it (and we loved it) but we felt our (limited) funds were better saved for their post - rather than pre - school education.
Here's some suggestions:
Can you and your wife work opposite shifts to offset daycare costs? Coffee shops are open all hours aren't they?
Do you have room to take in a roommate? Perhaps one that will do daycare in exchange for reduced rent possibly?
Can one of you take in other kids while caring for your own kid?
Can you take care of other pets as a side gig?
To get different results - you need to do something different!
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Another one weighing in on the Waldorf preschool/daycare. It would be a ludicrous expense if one parent didn't work but that's not the case here - it's high quality child care. My youngest daughter went to a Montessori preschool day care that provided a great early education and was actually in line with lesser quality day care options in my town. Agreed the Waldorf is a big expense, but it's just for another year and your child will transition well to public school with good skills.
It's brave to lay out income and expenses to this group, feedback and face punches are freely given here. Ya ask for opinions, ya get them. The OP has done a great job listening to all that's been offered, even while being pretty beaten up. Kudos to you, OP.
I also work in a "lifestyle" type of industry providing goods and services that no one actually needs but in my case, I own the business. It's something I enjoy doing (working with indoor tropical plants). My buy-in (of an existing business) was not crazy expensive and I've built the business and employ two part time people who don't make huge salaries, but I do my best and they enjoy their work. I'd hesitate opening any sort of enterprise that is open to the public, especially a coffee shop where people will camp out all day with a $2 coffee just to hog up the free wifi. Artisanal coffee is most definitely a "thing", while it seems crazy to many of us to spend huge amounts for tea, wine or as in the case of the OP's dreams, coffee, some people will spend for the very best.
Since others have covered, and the OP has started to work on, expenses, I'll chime in with what seems to be the general consensus that more income definitely would benefit this household to manage debt, the ongoing day-to-day and the wish to become FI. OP, you live in Seattle. Home to Microsoft, Amazon, and second home to Facebook, Google, et al. Not going to bring Starbucks into the conversation for obvious reasons :) . The big tech companies have mega food service opportunities for their employees. Coffee must be a huge part of the experience. Would there be a way you could market yourself to one of those firms for an in-house position? You could do something you liked for people who would appreciate your efforts. You'd earn a decent - not huge - salary, but have benefits, a 401k, stock options and the like. With your wife's current job, and the bumped up salary from a more corporate position, you'd be in far better shape. And you wouldn't need to give up your other dream of hand selected, green or roasted beans. I really liked PP's sharing of the friend who does small batch in his garage and markets to farmer's markets, and you could even sell on the internet or B2B. Just my thoughts, hope some of it's helpful.
What you do have going for you is youth, a seemingly solid marriage, a sweet baby girl and the ability to work hard and follow your dreams. I wish you and your family all the best. I think you'll go far.
Thank you! You know, I have thought about something similar to what you're thinking in the way of working at one of the corporations here. I have all the equipment to do a catering setup, and could do something like that...
I see a ton of people attacking the OP for the kindergarten costs.
As someone who had kids in Kindergarten and before/after school care in the Seattle area about a decade ago, I can say their Private Kindergarten costs are probably about inline with the costs for full-day kindergarten + before or after school care if the prices followed inflation growth. Besides, it was further clarified that they can't easily end the contract at this point either.
OP -
I earn quite a bit of money together with my wife (over $200K), and I don't want to try to buy a house in Seattle even though I love the city.
Some great suggestions on cutting expenses were already given.
Have you thought about moving out of Seattle one day? Might be easier to eventually open up your own coffee shop in a nice bedroom community in a lower cost part of Snohomish or Pierce vs trying to do the same in Seattle/King. While you have the housing subsidized, it is still pretty expensive as a percentage of your income (more than a third of your pre-tax).
Thanks so much for your support!
Yes, we actually really love Tacoma. We hope to be able to move back there if we find that our future business would do well there. Time will tell.
My god we are a passionate crowd aren't we?
Mr OP, kudos for being here. We tend to be harsh because many have already gone through years of painstakingly reorganising their lives and now have it all on autopilot. Many forget that you are essentially on Day 1 of this journey, still in the "oh-my-god-we-might-be-in-a-fucking-deep-hole-what-the-fuck-do-I-do-before-I-curl-up-in-a-ball-and-die" phase
Pick one thing a week or fortnight to try and change, embed the habit and then move on to the next item. You won't succeed trying to do everything at once.
Come back to this thread in 3 months and give us a happy update.
Thank you! That's a great idea about picking one thing per week.
A couple things from 2 pages of the thread;
1) Starbucks will not fail anytime in the near future (sorry). Their coffee is crap and their fancy drinks aren't anything coffee related but they appealed to the mass market in a genius way... And that's ok. The thing that makes the smaller coffee shops successful is that they can provide a different experience and better coffee than a brand with millions of stores. Starbucks isn't your competition, all the other hipster coffee shops are.
2) What are you learning about the process at your current job? I ask out of genuine coffee curiosity as a home roaster/caffeine aficionado myself.
3) Just to relate this somewhat back to money: I'm all for finding a job that is low stress and you love but you cannot argue the importance of having money either. Sometimes taking a low paying low stress job can actually create more stress outside of work because you have no money. Plus one to the 20 other people that side pick up a side gig.
1) What I love about this industry is that so many folks are willing to help out, even though it means competition. The industry is currently in a position where the general consensus is "the more, the merrier".
2) At my current position, where I've been for a year, I've learned mostly about customer service and the more hands-on techniques that I could not learn by myself at home. I already knew a lot about coffee before, and I'm only learning more every day! When I move to my new employer in October, I will start to learn even more about customer service, leadership, and I'll work closely with the director, so I'll learn about management and supply/demand. I also roasted at home for about a year.
3) Roger that! I've realized this as well.
Welcome to the forums! Luckily it is advertised as a place where facepunching is abundant. You are on an early retirement forum, so your goals might be different - but there's room for all kinds here.
Yikes, that's quite a stream of bad luck with the house and car accident!
Obviously some posters don't understand Waldorf education. It is practically the opposite of Montessori and has a bit of a cult like following, kinda like a religion - so hard to change people's mind on it. My kids were involved in it (and we loved it) but we felt our (limited) funds were better saved for their post - rather than pre - school education.
Here's some suggestions:
Can you and your wife work opposite shifts to offset daycare costs? Coffee shops are open all hours aren't they?
Do you have room to take in a roommate? Perhaps one that will do daycare in exchange for reduced rent possibly?
Can one of you take in other kids while caring for your own kid?
Can you take care of other pets as a side gig?
To get different results - you need to do something different!
I somewhat agree with what you say about Waldorf, but at the same time I disagree. Many have called it cult-like and religion-esque. I've also heard stories of bullying from parents and what-not. Maybe that happens more in the upper grades. If we made the money, we would most likely keep her in Waldorf.
We do work opposite shifts, and it will get even more synchronous when I start working at the same employer as her in October. :) Coffee shops are not open all hours. Both of our shops are open 6-6.
We have actually thought about the roommate deal! Many local students would be open to it, I'm sure. And we live only two blocks from one of the best community colleges in the state, a block from another one, and three blocks from Cornish. :) We even have a comfy pull-out sofa bed (memory foam mattress). But, taking someone in is a huge life decision.
We can hardly take care of our dog! Hah. She's so poorly-behaved around other dogs, it's sad. :( One of the things we're working on, actually.
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We had that discussion last night. We considered dropping Amazon Prime, so we looked through our orders, and its cost is offset by the convenience, so we feel it is necessary. Living a car-free life has its challenges, one of which being shopping. Without Prime, we would have to order at least $49 worth of items at a time, and much of what we get is not on Subscribe-and-Save for decent prices.
This morning, I found an alternative to Adobe CC (which provides Photoshop and Lightroom). I only use Lightroom. Turns out, Apple's new Photos app does everything that I use Lightroom for! And it's actually faster! Bye-bye Adobe CC! :) What I am losing from having an Adobe CC account is their free portfolio service. But since I'm not looking to expand my equipment, I'm also not looking to develop a portfolio. I do this for fun, and post to flickr and Instagram, both of which are free.
EDIT: I forgot that I paid for the full one-year subscription. So I am going to cancel the renewal (May 2017), and will either continue to use Lightroom, or I'll just transition over to Photos. If I full-out cancel my subscription, I will be charged 50% ($44) of my remaining plan price. There is also the option to continue using the plan, but receive 60 days free (pushing the renewal date to July 2017). I selected this option, as it's safest. I will not budget for any renewal, however.
Waldorf is hard. I called the school district yesterday and they don't even have our daughter on file even though I sent the registration paperwork on January 10th... So I have to resubmit everything. >.< It's looking like we will continue her through this next year of Waldorf.
Thanks again to everyone! :)
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Explore the roommate option! When we had toddlers, we rented out our basement to a lovely student; she would occasionally pop up and ask if I'd mind if she took our girls to the park just for something to do! I'd practically fall on the floor to kiss her feet! Screen them well and you could get lucky!
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Roger that! I've created a reminder to speak with my wife on all of these things tonight when I get home from work. Unfortunately, we are stuck in a contract with the phones. And that contract is on my father's family plan, so we can't have it bought-out by T-Mobile or anything. I'll look into our options there. :)
About the homemade cereal/oatmeal deal. We can't find affordable items to make this. We've price-checked and it always ends up ~$15/lb. to make! We have not checked CostCo yet, however, as we don't have a membership. But half of Amazon Prime would pay for a year membership to CostCo. The only issue there is that the nearest one is a 20-minute ride, and we can't carry much bulk items on our bikes. Our bike bags hold one full paper bag of groceries each, and we have four of those (two for each bike) and one of us hauls the kiddo. 20 minutes is no issue – just don't want to find out we don't have room on the bikes hah. We want to check it out though – I think we were planning for this weekend or next to go and see. Someone also just bought us a Vitamix, so we want to be able to buy bulk nuts and the like. :)
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How is $15/pound granola even possible ?? - the AVERAGE price per pound of all of your ingredients would have to be $15/pound. Even if you are using flaxseed, chia seeds, and nuts (what other expensive ingredients go into granola?) they are all less than $10/pound. So if you have a mix of 50% oats at $2/pound and 50% expensive ingredients at $10/pound, your average is $6/pound. (the only ingredients that would lose mass during baking would be liquid sweeteners as the water evaporates, but that should have a minimal effect on the cost) Please show us your recipe/math to get help with your misunderstanding of the average cost per pound.
About the cell phones: I'm skeptical that it's not possible to break part of a family plan and pay a termination fee. Have you asked? We did it 2 years ago; we had 3 people on a Verizon plan and switched one at a time to Tmobile (leaving the Verizon plan in place until the 3rd person got their new phone). T-mobile paid all of the termination fees.
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DavidDoes,
Kudos to you for sticking with this after all the flak you are getting. I think if you are this persistent, you will succeed eventually in many areas. Congrats also on having the kind of marriage where spouses talk. I'm sure your little girl is having a wonderful childhood. In case you haven't heard it before about kids: "The days are long, but the years are short." Today's worries will all too soon be just the sepia tone on those photos you look back on, remembering the time before your daughter moved out into the world. Keep on figuring out how to emerge from this phase with money as well as memories in your pocket.
Here are the 2 financial thoughts/ suggestions I can think to add:
1. Contingency planning. A key factor in your current situation is that it pivots on financial assistance, as someone pointed out. Take advantage of it but plan for the possibility it will disappear. Two years from now with no changes, you're going to be pouring money in the bank (I mean, your 401k, or IRA). Soon you should switch from a focus on immediate maximization to one where a significant part of your planning is to prepare for transitions since your current path is quite healthy. Prepare for scenarios such as:
a. What's our default plan if we lose our subsidized housing? Move to another city? If it's to move, get some details set if possible. If it's to stay, where is the reliable bolt hole you would use in expensive Seattle? Or is the best Seattle strategy to build connections with people who can hook you up in an emergency? How can you do something now for them?
b. What will you do if one of you gets injured or killed? (Yep, parents not close to FI might need to consider term life insurance. Worth researching, at least.)
c. Suppose that things stay stable. Build towards those next steps. Will you start a coffee business or a coding one? If coffee, are you going to befriend current entrepreneurs to learn? Are you going to get an intermediate coffee job above barista but below owner? If so, what jobs would be the most practical and enjoyable path forward? For coding, when can you start doing small practice jobs for money?
d. I'm not suggesting endless analysis, or analysis paralysis. Explore 2 contingencies for each area, then pick a fave and build towards it. You will feel more peaceful when you have practical plans in your pocket. Then you calmly move forward with your top plan. Also, you will recognize great opportunities when they appear.
2. Cereal. I love cereal. Recently it dawned on me that if I cook rice or quinoa or millet, they can replace cereal. I have learned to cook these. Beans replace expensive milk/soy milk. It saves a surprising amount of money. Try it!
Good luck in all your endeavors.
PS. Moderators, thank you for the excellent work you've been doing.
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OP, you are heading toward another financial disaster given your spending profile. You are a working class family (for Seattle) trying to live the upper middle class consumer sukka life style - this is not going to end well for you or your family. Good luck and hope you make it.
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*snip*
We do work opposite shifts, and it will get even more synchronous when I start working at the same employer as her in October. :) Coffee shops are not open all hours. Both of our shops are open 6-6.
*snip*
This could be a big opportunity for you. Starbucks is open much later than 6 PM in my area, which is less of a city than your location. Would specialty coffee fanatics also be interested in coffee later at night? Perhaps at least until 9 or 10 PM? If you can convince your new boss (when you join your wife) to let you keep the coffee shop open alone until later at night, that would make it a lot easier for the two of you to split your time and cover a lot more of your daughter's time out of school.
*snip*
2. Cereal. I love cereal. Recently it dawned on me that if I cook rice or quinoa or millet, they can replace cereal. I have learned to cook these. Beans replace expensive milk/soy milk. It saves a surprising amount of money. Try it!
*snip*
This is a good point. You might not be able to find bulk oatmeal in your area, but I'll bet there is at least one Asian, Indian, or Mexican grocery within biking distance of you (and this could be a trip that only one spouse makes so you don't need to worry about taking your daughter through certain areas) where you can get a 10 lb or larger sack of brown rice for around $1 per pound (would be 50 cents/lb in my area, but I don't know Seattle's prices). Then you can make delicious brown rice breakfast porridge (http://allrecipes.com/recipe/96787/brown-rice-breakfast-porridge/) (one of my favorite breakfasts), except you will use cheaper raisin instead of blueberries. You can also look at dry milk prices in your local grocery stores to see if the cost per gallon would be cheaper than buying fresh milk, as it is unlikely you would notice a taste difference when using it for cooking. Pick up cheaper ethnic market cinnamon and vanilla as well, because McCormick's prices are ridiculous. Make sure to look at the reviews, as people have a lot of good idea for ingredient substitutions and different flavors. Seriously, DBF and I LOVE this recipe. We serve with extra sweeteners at the table.
Note: Brown rice should be kept in the refrigerator or freezer. White rice can be kept in a pantry.
*snip*
About the homemade cereal/oatmeal deal. We can't find affordable items to make this. We've price-checked and it always ends up ~$15/lb. to make! We have not checked CostCo yet, however, as we don't have a membership. But half of Amazon Prime would pay for a year membership to CostCo. The only issue there is that the nearest one is a 20-minute ride, and we can't carry much bulk items on our bikes. Our bike bags hold one full paper bag of groceries each, and we have four of those (two for each bike) and one of us hauls the kiddo. 20 minutes is no issue – just don't want to find out we don't have room on the bikes hah. We want to check it out though – I think we were planning for this weekend or next to go and see. Someone also just bought us a Vitamix, so we want to be able to buy bulk nuts and the like. :)
*snip*
If you would post per pound prices of ingredients and the stores where you found them, we might be able to check your math and/or tweak the recipe to make it more reasonably priced. It's easy to botch up math in the middle of a shopping trip. One memorable day I was mentally basing calculation on 6 oz of mushrooms being 1/3 of a pound...which is so very wrong.
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We had that discussion last night. We considered dropping Amazon Prime, so we looked through our orders, and its cost is offset by the convenience, so we feel it is necessary. Living a car-free life has its challenges, one of which being shopping. Without Prime, we would have to order at least $49 worth of items at a time, and much of what we get is not on Subscribe-and-Save for decent prices.
Okay, the Prime membership is maybe not a huge problem, but this sort of attitude is. If you want to accumulate money, you have to stop spending money for "convenience", or at the very least recognize that "convenience" is not the same as "necessity". My husband and I were car free until January of this year, and even now we rarely use the car for groceries. You can probably find a bike trailer on Craigslist for the cost of your Prime membership (or less). View hauling big loads of oatmeal or dog food as an opportunity to get some free exercise.
I am also curious about this $15/lb granola/cereal. Even organic oatmeal from the bulk section of whole foods is only something like $1.30/lb. For a family of three, I don't think your total food cost is actually all that bad, but I guess I actually don't see how you can really only be spending $400/month on food if you can't figure out how to make granola for less than $15/lb. Something doesn't seem to add up there...is the budget you posted at the beginning an actual representation of monthly averages, or what you'd like to be spending?
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Taken overall, your posts suggests that you guys are completely rudderless. You let a 5yo make a major financial decision for you. Sure, she "wanted" to continue. The job of a parent is to manage a child's wants within the context of the family and the real world.
You want to be a photographer/developer/coffee entrepreneur. That sort of gives the impression that you don't actually know at al what you want to do. But you know you don't want stress, and it seems like maybe your threshold for "stress" is pretty low.
And on the surface, that's okay. If you want to choose a life making $24k/year because you really can't handle even moderate stress cool. But you can't have everything. You can't do that, and cave on a 5yos whims, and retire early so that you don't even have many years of your already low stress job.
There's nothing wrong with working as a barista for as long as you want. But there's something very wrong with then not begin able to make the sacrifices that go along with that decision. Pick your #1 priority. If that's being in coffee, then move to a place with a cheap COL, and suddenly your rent is cut in half and your income stays about the same. Or maybe staying in your area is more important, in which case getting a higher paying job, and a second job for at least one of you, is probably what you need if you are ever going to get ahead (or even just not fall behind). Choose what's important, and then have the maturity to realize that every decision has consequences, and not all of them are pleasant. You sound like a teenager who wants money to spend hanging out with friends, but balks at the idea of having a job because working sucks. Pick the thing you want, own that decision and move forward.
There's myriad options that can right the ship for you. But yes, all of the require sacrifice. That's how life works. But you very much do need to decide on an option or options, because continuing on the current course isn't sustainable.
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I think OP should be commended for doing whatever they needed to do to score subsidized housing in the extremely competitive Seattle market (esp in Capitol Hill -- definitely look into at least PT Air BnBing to maximize income earning potential. Your daughter can sleep in your bedroom a couple of nights a month if you can't find opportunities for her to sleep over with friends/relatives, and then you can rent out her room/bathroom for a higher rate rather than expecting guests to sleep on the sofa). And for making efforts to move into a new position in the coffee field that sounds like it has potential for growth. I don't necessarily think that moving to a LCOL area at this time in the career is the answer -- Seattle is a coffee town, and a great place to really learn the industry/network in ways that will lead to real growth. Telling someone in this field just getting into the business (which clearly to them does not mean being a barista for life) to move to someplace with less of a coffee "scene" is kind of like telling someone with aspirations of making it in tech that they should ditch their startup job in the Bay Area and go get a nice steady job maintaining 1970s mainframes in Debuque. Penny wise, perhaps, but most likely pound foolish.
I am going to fault OP for not following through on the school enrollment thing, though. So SPS lost your initial paperwork. SOOOOOOO????? Is that reason enough to pay anywhere from 4-8k more than you really need to in the next year for your daughters schooling? Especially when the schedule at the new default school works even better for your work schedules. Yes, maybe the Waldorf school is lovely. But does it beat FREE????? If you could invest that 4-8k for your DD's college savings, how much would that be? How much sooner would it let you retire? The SPS enrollment process is not that daunting. It is a 1-2 page form and some supplemental documents (immunization records, proof of address). It isn't even that hard to get down to the administration building from Capitol Hill (I think light rail goes pretty close, or you can transfer to a bus if you don't want to walk). I'm not saying you have to enroll your daughter in the local school -- but by not following through on the enrollment process you are by default making a choice. Own it if that is what you want, but don't try to make it sound like somehow the process is so onorous that it is impossible for you to follow up. If I can make it through the much more complicated school choice process at middle school level, you can manage to get your daughter enrolled for K in her default school.
Similar thing with the granola example -- stop making excuses based on faulty data or lack of sufficient research/follow through. You got subsidized housing in Seattle -- anybody who can do that can kick the ass of SPS enrollment, granola making, early retirement, and any other goal or aspiration they might have.
And why on earth you would EVER want to own a home again after that nightmare you went through with the last one is beyond me. YOU ARE SOME BRAVE FOLK! Go out there and kick some butt. You've got it in you, just need to focus and work on both accurate data collection and appropriate follow through.
Except it hard to take him very seriously when he also mentions tech and photography. And when they can barely make ends meet, I think all things need to be on the table. Sure, Seattle is a "coffee town", but there are coffee shops in nearly every town in American. Learning how to make a great cup of coffee and how to run a coffee business doesn't really need a coffee town. It needs a job at a good coffee shop. Just one good coffee shop.
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I think OP should be commended for doing whatever they needed to do to score subsidized housing in the extremely competitive Seattle market (esp in Capitol Hill -- definitely look into at least PT Air BnBing to maximize income earning potential. Your daughter can sleep in your bedroom a couple of nights a month if you can't find opportunities for her to sleep over with friends/relatives, and then you can rent out her room/bathroom for a higher rate rather than expecting guests to sleep on the sofa).
...
Be careful with this. Make sure taking in a roommate or AirBnB-ing won't jeopardize the housing subsidy.
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I think OP already heard everything the thread wanted to say , just couple of things from me for coming in late
1. thank you for reaching out, you are trying and that is the first and most important thing (realizing you are stuck is important before moving forward)
2. as others said, figure out what are your true priorities , for both yourself, and your marriage as partnership. if that is private school then it is private school, if it is 5k camera it is 5k camera.
3. focus on it and be ruthless cutting out anything that does not fit - 'friends' that attach you to specific lifestyle, expectations of others, etc.
4. be real, don't lie to ourselves/yourself. if you can not afford it , everything else does not matter. as they use to say - man up or shut up , either ramp up your income very significantly to fund that need or go without.
you are still living on an edge , any single financial event will seriously f$ck you up. step away from the ledge, breath out, and start working on getting where _you_ want to go
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Welcome to the community! This has been a great thread with lots of fantastic advice to this point and I wanted to throw my cent or two in.
1. You do you. A feel like a couple of posts have missed the mark to this point - in my opinion this whole philosophy, at its root, is about finding happiness that can be sustained for your entire life. If for you think you have found that happiness in coffee, great! If that happiness comes from hobbies in photography and coding, awesome! If that happiness comes from knowing that you have enough money in the bank to retire at 40 with no debt, fantastic! The key is determining what will truly make you and your family happy and living the best life you can.
2. I mentioned sustainability of that happiness. Soul sucking jobs aren't a way to sustain happiness. Being unprepared to handle unexpected costs is also not a way to sustain happiness. After you figure out what makes you happy, your goal should be to have a plan that allows you to maintain that happiness over your life. For me, owning my own time makes me happiest, so I save as much money as I can to work towards owning my time, all the time.
If coffee makes you happy, you might need to make sacrifices in order to continue in coffee. If you have to constantly weigh whether or not you should go back to a higher paying job, that's a problem - you are doing SOMETHING that undermines the sustainability of your happiness, in this case spending too much!
3. There is a pattern that shows up here on occasion. Dire financial situation looking for help - great advice given by members of the community - dire financial situation responds with "I can't, I can't, I can't". When you say "I can't", you really mean "I don't want to" because there are a lot of folks in similar situations that have proven it can be done. It's up to you to take all of the great, potentially life changing, advice that's been given and say "I'll try".
Sorry for the ramble - good luck in finding happiness OP!!
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What is your actual budget? Have you tracked every expense? You listed an initial budget but I think that is your guesstimation. What are the hard numbers? You need to look at the last three months minimum. Are you really saving $500 monthly? What's the balance in the savings account then?
In the nicest way possible! I think you are being silly with the reasoning behind Waldorf this year. Want to keep her there no matter what? Fine just say so. But forgetting dates because you can't "find" your calendar and can't get ahold of someone.. No papers on file? Just makes me raise an eyebrow. Go online. It's probably all online.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I was about to reply saying that 1,700 is insane for a single family apartment. That's close to what we pay for a 6 bedroom with 6 people and 6 incomes. But then I looked briefly at Seattle's rental Craigslist. Hohhh. Leee. Shiit. It's rough out there. Looks like there is basically nothing up to about the 1300 range. We pay about $350 per person-month for rent and utilities.
I just talked to my housemate who works entry level at Peace Coffee here in Minneapolis. He said that he would make about 18k a year before tips if he worked there 40 hours a week.
He also said that he was making about $30k a year working for Caribou Coffee in the airport. Although, he was paid extra since it was the opening shift and he had to get up at 3am to catch the first train to the airport.
Considering that your rent is 2.6x what we pay, and your food is 2x, maybe taking a ~%25 pay cut to move to an LCOL area might be a good idea? If I were you, I would consider myself priced out of that area. There is coffee culture elsewhere -- Here in Minneapolis we have Peace Coffee, tons of independent shops, small chains like Spyhouse, successful corporate chains like Caribou, etc. I think there are latte art competitions and coffee conferences and events in multiple venues as well.
(not that being priced out has to be a bad thing! I kinda hate rich areas and rich people so maybe I am biased... but I love my nighborhood! I feel a lot safer here than I think I would in a place where apartments go for $1300 a month and up)
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There's an artsy coffee shop in walking distance from my house in my lower-middle-class suburb on the edge between the Acela corridor and the Rust Belt. I'm sure Seattle has the most, and maybe the best, but it's not making movies, or for that matter software. Consumption decisions are much, much more distributed in the coffee industry than they are in software, the example used upthread justifying staying in Seattle.
(For the record you can rent a just-renovated house here for $1300.)
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What is your actual budget? Have you tracked every expense? You listed an initial budget but I think that is your guesstimation. What are the hard numbers? You need to look at the last three months minimum. Are you really saving $500 monthly? What's the balance in the savings account then?
In the nicest way possible! I think you are being silly with the reasoning behind Waldorf this year. Want to keep her there no matter what? Fine just say so. But forgetting dates because you can't "find" your calendar and can't get ahold of someone.. No papers on file? Just makes me raise an eyebrow. Go online. It's probably all online.
Please read the full thread.
This is the actual budget. I used the code tags because it's a straight copy/paste from our budget spreadsheet. No, it's not a copy/paste of our register from YNAB...
I remember putting the date that people returned to admissions offices on my Calendar, but couldn't find that. It'd be hard to misplace a digital Calendar app. ;) And yes, I did call them. I spoke with someone. And no, they could not find any of her information. That makes you raise a brow? Have you never had to deal with something getting lost? I wouldn't make this up... And how does one "go online" to find it "all online" when you fax in the paperwork...? It's not like everyone is born with access to the School District's database...I was about to reply saying that 1,700 is insane for a single family apartment. That's close to what we pay for a 6 bedroom with 6 people and 6 incomes. But then I looked briefly at Seattle's rental Craigslist. Hohhh. Leee. Shiit. It's rough out there. Looks like there is basically nothing up to about the 1300 range. We pay about $350 per person-month for rent and utilities.
I just talked to my housemate who works entry level at Peace Coffee here in Minneapolis. He said that he would make about 18k a year before tips if he worked there 40 hours a week.
He also said that he was making about $30k a year working for Caribou Coffee in the airport. Although, he was paid extra since it was the opening shift and he had to get up at 3am to catch the first train to the airport.
Considering that your rent is 2.6x what we pay, and your food is 2x, maybe taking a ~%25 pay cut to move to an LCOL area might be a good idea? If I were you, I would consider myself priced out of that area. There is coffee culture elsewhere -- Here in Minneapolis we have Peace Coffee, tons of independent shops, small chains like Spyhouse, successful corporate chains like Caribou, etc. I think there are latte art competitions and coffee conferences and events in multiple venues as well.
(not that being priced out has to be a bad thing! I kinda hate rich areas and rich people so maybe I am biased... but I love my nighborhood! I feel a lot safer here than I think I would in a place where apartments go for $1300 a month and up)
MPLS is an awesome coffee scene and an even better haven for cyclists! I would love to move there, but no family. My family is in Boise, ID where the Cost of Living is waaaayyy lower. But so are wages. We have considered moving back there, but it also gets over 100ºF in the summer and below freezing in the winter. We've got a few places on our radar. :)
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I live in a walkable neighborhood and two blocks south is a Starbucks and a Philz. two blocks west is another Starbucks and an independent coffee house. Another coffee shop is coming in a building that is under construction. I just don't get it, but apparently everybody loves coffee. Good luck OP.
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You probably don't need someone to tell you for the 5 millionth time, but seriously... don't let your 5 year old make major financial decisions. Think about this for a minute - if you had put your child in public daycare for this extra year, your emergency savings would be up to $1300 per month (assuming you keep an eye on your budget and don't fritter your intended savings away). That's pretty solid savings. And why shouldn't you reach FI on that? You'd easily max your ROTH IRAs and have some extra for taxable investments.
Why do you want to own a home? There's no subsidy for mortgages*. There's nothing wrong with renting. [*Not actually true - you might qualify for Habitat for Humanity down the road.] Owning a home doesn't automatically lead to FI.
Consider for a moment - you are already working retirement jobs. What does your retirement look like that's different from what you're doing now? So why do you feel so bad about your future?
You might never have enough money to open your own coffee shop (but maybe, with SBA or other financing). But that's probably a good thing. As a CPA, I see the inner workings of a lot of people's businesses. It can take a lot of time and a lot of effort to eke out roughly $50,000 in after tax income - which you'd need, since you and your wife would both be working at this business. You would also have a lot of your assets and financial security wrapped up in a business that could fail, and at the least will have bad years.
Owning your own coffee shop really could cripple your financial future - but working at one seems like a fine financial proposition.
Are you going to get rich as a dual income family making $50,000 per year? No. But what, exactly, is missing from your life that you're worried about it? Take away Waldorf school, and you have a 30% savings rate within your grasp.
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Best of luck on your coffee career. My BIL just opened a small coffee store front. They (he and his brother) started out as managers in local shops. They opened a coffee catering business on the side doing weddings, events, farmers markets, etc. They just had their cart (home made) and bit of gear. Then they bought a roaster and started selling to other shops and to individuals. At this point they quit their day jobs managing the other coffee shops since they now had multiple revenue streams. Now they were ready to open their shop. They limited start up capital by utilizing the help of others. Family and friends helped them build their business to keep costs down - web development, custom built furniture, a promotional video - all done for free or thru bartering. The shop is a new venture, but I think they've been smart about their way of expanding the business. These various revenue streams should help stabilize their business. Next they are talking with a local grocery chain about carrying their product. So basically, develop a good plan that is manageable for you and your family. You can start slow and build your business.
I'm a photo hobbyist and a Wordpress wantabe. I don't have anything helpful on the Wordpress stuff. You have more skill than I. But have you tried Gimp for photos? It is free. I have an old creative suite I use, so haven't used gimp myself. But DH runs a computer lab and says they use gimp instead of Photoshop.
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Couple things - you have to think hard about your commitment level to this. Take it from someone in their late 40's that I wish I had discovered a site like this then. However, within your current situation you do have some opportunities. First is the school for your daughter - it has to go...seriously, don't get sucked in to the elite life that many Seattlites do live (here too). I have heard that there is a really good, artsy type public school either in downtown Seattle or possibly Ballard so please do look around. For net results on public vs. private, I went to all public as a kid, put myself through a state college, then rode the coattails of big multinational that gave me an education of a lifetime and now I make more than the average Harvard Grad in my age group - let me emphasize...I grew up in the bottom of the pyramid so smarts, talent, survival, etc. come from many variables but mostly having true grit, curiosity, and a love for life. Your kid needs you to help her foster these things and it does to cost a penny - only your engagement and creativity.
Next is your phone bill - 121??? no way! I cut the cord on a hard line back in the year 2000 and always got the best cell deal and never went over minutes. Now with the ability to use google talk for free, why are you paying 121? Revisit this. you just need one phone # between the 2 of you and should be able to get a far better deal at least half the cost. If you are afraid of emergencies and cell not working, well in 16 years, we have just never had that happen and if it had, there are always people around near by that can help.
I would start w/those 2 things and do some soul searching about what you really desire as well as research options on all of the possibilities of having a career in coffee that can lead you to the path you want - we have star bucks and mukiltio coffee right here - you might consider sucking it up for a few years like many of the 3m's do and reach for something that pays well in coffee. For example, given that Starbucks is right here - start looking on their web site fir managerial track jobs. Don't listen to any noise about how you need to have special degrees, ivy league, MBA, etc. This I know - with my state college degree I paid for myself, I reached for the biggest multinational i could find at the time and applied for a management training program (they exist all over the place - pick a company - look at start bucks) and I got in and the rest is history. These companies look for those who are willing to work hard (they love self made people), willing to adapt to anything and learn all the time, intellectual curiosity, and so on. My only regret is that I wished I knew more about money younger so take the gift of this site, take the gift of of all the experience out here in the forum and dig into the possibility of a better life.
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What is your actual budget? Have you tracked every expense? You listed an initial budget but I think that is your guesstimation. What are the hard numbers? You need to look at the last three months minimum. Are you really saving $500 monthly? What's the balance in the savings account then?
In the nicest way possible! I think you are being silly with the reasoning behind Waldorf this year. Want to keep her there no matter what? Fine just say so. But forgetting dates because you can't "find" your calendar and can't get ahold of someone.. No papers on file? Just makes me raise an eyebrow. Go online. It's probably all online.
Please read the full thread.
This is the actual budget. I used the code tags because it's a straight copy/paste from our budget spreadsheet. No, it's not a copy/paste of our register from YNAB...
I remember putting the date that people returned to admissions offices on my Calendar, but couldn't find that. It'd be hard to misplace a digital Calendar app. ;) And yes, I did call them. I spoke with someone. And no, they could not find any of her information. That makes you raise a brow? Have you never had to deal with something getting lost? I wouldn't make this up... And how does one "go online" to find it "all online" when you fax in the paperwork...? It's not like everyone is born with access to the School District's database...I was about to reply saying that 1,700 is insane for a single family apartment. That's close to what we pay for a 6 bedroom with 6 people and 6 incomes. But then I looked briefly at Seattle's rental Craigslist. Hohhh. Leee. Shiit. It's rough out there. Looks like there is basically nothing up to about the 1300 range. We pay about $350 per person-month for rent and utilities.
I just talked to my housemate who works entry level at Peace Coffee here in Minneapolis. He said that he would make about 18k a year before tips if he worked there 40 hours a week.
He also said that he was making about $30k a year working for Caribou Coffee in the airport. Although, he was paid extra since it was the opening shift and he had to get up at 3am to catch the first train to the airport.
Considering that your rent is 2.6x what we pay, and your food is 2x, maybe taking a ~%25 pay cut to move to an LCOL area might be a good idea? If I were you, I would consider myself priced out of that area. There is coffee culture elsewhere -- Here in Minneapolis we have Peace Coffee, tons of independent shops, small chains like Spyhouse, successful corporate chains like Caribou, etc. I think there are latte art competitions and coffee conferences and events in multiple venues as well.
(not that being priced out has to be a bad thing! I kinda hate rich areas and rich people so maybe I am biased... but I love my nighborhood! I feel a lot safer here than I think I would in a place where apartments go for $1300 a month and up)
MPLS is an awesome coffee scene and an even better haven for cyclists! I would love to move there, but no family. My family is in Boise, ID where the Cost of Living is waaaayyy lower. But so are wages. We have considered moving back there, but it also gets over 100ºF in the summer and below freezing in the winter. We've got a few places on our radar. :)
Hey bud. I DID read the whole thread. Please read your initial post.
You haven't been contributing the 500 in months and so that isn't a current realistic budget no? Where are the $10 little outings you say add up? Are those part of the $400 a month grocery bill? Just some questions for you to think about. I'm outta this thread now, I feel like you don't need or want my input. Good luck!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hey mate,
Just wanted to chime in a 'case study' for the coffee industry naysayers.
Started as a barista, got a job as a delivery driver for a roastery, moved into working as a coffee machine technician and now support both me and my missus with a two-day-a-week coffee 'side' hustle.
It's an industry that will reward insight and courage - but also one where hard work and passion can potentially get you nothing but 30 years of no progress.
If you want to move forward, get your ass out of the cafes and into a roastery, whatever it takes. If Seattle roasteries like the personal touch and hire delivery drivers, I especially recommend it. You get to learn the basics of technical, training, roasting and you need to be up to speed on everything in the company because you are the first point of contact. They usually have their pick of internal promotions when the positions come up (I certainly did).
Anyway PM me if you want to chat or brainstorm or ask me specifics about my business. I've got a journal on here as well that might be informative.
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MPLS is an awesome coffee scene and an even better haven for cyclists! I would love to move there, but no family. My family is in Boise, ID where the Cost of Living is waaaayyy lower. But so are wages. We have considered moving back there, but it also gets over 100ºF in the summer and below freezing in the winter. We've got a few places on our radar. :)
David, you make $11.76 an hour by my calculations. You're clearly not a dumb guy - I am confident you could get a job making $12/hr in Boise.
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Having just got back from a nine day trip in the pacific Northwest, including 3 days in Seattle, I think it would be extremely hard to break into the Seattle coffee market. I'm obviously a noob with limited knowledge of the coffee industry, but that is just my impression.
My fiance and I walked the entire city on our first day there. We started at our hotel (the Westin on 5th), went down to the market, went to Pioneer Square, went all the way to the stadiums, circled all the way back on 4th street, went to the Space Needle, back down to the market, then back to our hotel. The thing that amazed us (as simpletons from the Midwest) was how many coffee shops there were. It is no exaggeration to say that walking on any given street, there would be 3-4 coffee shops per block, sometimes more. Other types of restaurants (i.e., little bakery shops) also served coffee.
To me at least, the market was completely over-saturated and would seem damn near impossible to break into. By definition, you'd be opening up with 10 competitors within a block and hundreds within a square quarter mile. You'd really have to differentiate yourself to make things work, but with especially tight margins and your limited ability to build startup capital, it seems like breaking into the Seattle market would be extremely difficult.
I think a good idea would be to network within Seattle with your eyes on opening a shop somewhere with lower cost of living. Get to know some of the best roasters and others in the industry. Build up your contacts. And then dominate a smaller type of market out west. Something like Boise, ID; Missoula, MT; Spokane, WA; etc.
And if your product is online--great! Your revenue won't be determined by where you're located. If you make $50,000 selling online coffee orders, wouldn't you rather live in a city where your dollar can go further?
Just my two cents. Good luck to you.
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I think the nice thing about working as a barista is that you can work basically anywhere you want in the US because where is there NOT a Starbucks?
I live outside of Seattle, make way more household income than you do, and I can't afford to buy a house. It is completely off the radar. I don't even have to live in Seattle to be priced out! If you want a house, you are going to have to move. To eastern Washington/Oregon at the very least, but more like flyover country.
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David,
Regarding the title of your thread. May I suggest "We may never reach that financial freedom. Here's why that's okay."
You may not reach what I or others here want from FF, but I think you are closer to what you want from FF than you give yourself credit for.
I want FIRE so that I can stop paid work, do some volunteering and never be compelled to deal with a stupid manager ever again. Your dream seems a lot more similar to what you are doing right now than a lot of the other worker bees on the forum (no offence forumites).
Consider this: If you woke up tomorrow with your mustache fully funded, I think you would choose to spend much of your day working in a coffee shop, or working with coffee in some way. If I woke up tomorrow and the 'stache fairies had been my days would look very different to today (e.g. I would not be sitting in boring meetings or filling in a timesheet).
If you are happy with parts of your life, that's okay. Maybe if you feel resistance to making a change (e.g. the Waldorf), instead of telling us why you can't do something, tell us that you choose to do something else. If you choose to stay in Seattle because of the coffee culture, that's okay; but it's different from being unable to move. However, in order to do this you will need to be brutally honest with yourself, you can only spend each dollar once, and while you are working for relatively low wages you will need to be more thoughtful than most about how you spend each one (OTOH, you have the same number of hours as everyone else, and how you spend each of those matters too). If you can't do something now that you really want to do, rephrase it as I can't yet...
Reading between the lines, I think you have a pretty good handle on balance in life, but this thread is coming across as if you are complaining that you can't have things (like an efund) because of choices you have made and are sticking by.
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Hey mate,
Just wanted to chime in a 'case study' for the coffee industry naysayers.
Started as a barista, got a job as a delivery driver for a roastery, moved into working as a coffee machine technician and now support both me and my missus with a two-day-a-week coffee 'side' hustle.
It's an industry that will reward insight and courage - but also one where hard work and passion can potentially get you nothing but 30 years of no progress.
If you want to move forward, get your ass out of the cafes and into a roastery, whatever it takes. If Seattle roasteries like the personal touch and hire delivery drivers, I especially recommend it. You get to learn the basics of technical, training, roasting and you need to be up to speed on everything in the company because you are the first point of contact. They usually have their pick of internal promotions when the positions come up (I certainly did).
Anyway PM me if you want to chat or brainstorm or ask me specifics about my business. I've got a journal on here as well that might be informative.
Good to hear! Roasting is actually where my passion is, and what I really excel at. I'm moving to a company that has just opened a second shop. They started roasting their own coffee about a year ago, and are growing quickly. When their current head roaster leaves, I'll take his spot (part of the reason they're hiring me). :)
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Your kid goes to the school for which you're zoned. That's how public schools work, by default, almost everywhere.
Unless you have creative paperwork.
My wife altered my daughters birth certificate (or a copy) to get her in kindergarten
a year early*. Then made a false rental agreement to put both of my kids in the better
middle school and high school district. (immigrants run with different rules) (OK, some)
I think we're past the statute of limitations, daughter graduated from college 4 years ago.
*I knew a kindergarten teacher, she ran my daughter through some tests and
said she was more than ready for kindergarten. I got a scolding though, she ask me, "how
come you never taught your daughter how to skip?" I guess it was not part of my wife's culture,
leaving it up to me. She never had any social problems fit right in with the older kids.
Funny story, her Kindergarten teacher told me. The teacher noted during the day my daughter
went into a bit of a funk. She ask her what's up, my daughter responded, " I'm going start keeping
everything I know under a sheet." Huh? After some more quizzing, the teacher realized she had been
delegating to my daughter, the job of helping other students a little to much, and my daughter had had enough!
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David,
Regarding the title of your thread. May I suggest "We may never reach that financial freedom. Here's why that's okay."
You may not reach what I or others here want from FF, but I think you are closer to what you want from FF than you give yourself credit for.
I want FIRE so that I can stop paid work, do some volunteering and never be compelled to deal with a stupid manager ever again. Your dream seems a lot more similar to what you are doing right now than a lot of the other worker bees on the forum (no offence forumites).
Consider this: If you woke up tomorrow with your mustache fully funded, I think you would choose to spend much of your day working in a coffee shop, or working with coffee in some way. If I woke up tomorrow and the 'stache fairies had been my days would look very different to today (e.g. I would not be sitting in boring meetings or filling in a timesheet).
If you are happy with parts of your life, that's okay. Maybe if you feel resistance to making a change (e.g. the Waldorf), instead of telling us why you can't do something, tell us that you choose to do something else. If you choose to stay in Seattle because of the coffee culture, that's okay; but it's different from being unable to move. However, in order to do this you will need to be brutally honest with yourself, you can only spend each dollar once, and while you are working for relatively low wages you will need to be more thoughtful than most about how you spend each one (OTOH, you have the same number of hours as everyone else, and how you spend each of those matters too). If you can't do something now that you really want to do, rephrase it as I can't yet...
Reading between the lines, I think you have a pretty good handle on balance in life, but this thread is coming across as if you are complaining that you can't have things (like an efund) because of choices you have made and are sticking by.
Man... I think you hit this on the head! We've been thinking, If we can't retire, we're failures! when we spend most of our time building our business plan and what-not. There is a quote out there about if you're doing what you love, you don't need to retire.
:)
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David,
Regarding the title of your thread. May I suggest "We may never reach that financial freedom. Here's why that's okay."
You may not reach what I or others here want from FF, but I think you are closer to what you want from FF than you give yourself credit for.
I want FIRE so that I can stop paid work, do some volunteering and never be compelled to deal with a stupid manager ever again. Your dream seems a lot more similar to what you are doing right now than a lot of the other worker bees on the forum (no offence forumites).
Consider this: If you woke up tomorrow with your mustache fully funded, I think you would choose to spend much of your day working in a coffee shop, or working with coffee in some way. If I woke up tomorrow and the 'stache fairies had been my days would look very different to today (e.g. I would not be sitting in boring meetings or filling in a timesheet).
If you are happy with parts of your life, that's okay. Maybe if you feel resistance to making a change (e.g. the Waldorf), instead of telling us why you can't do something, tell us that you choose to do something else. If you choose to stay in Seattle because of the coffee culture, that's okay; but it's different from being unable to move. However, in order to do this you will need to be brutally honest with yourself, you can only spend each dollar once, and while you are working for relatively low wages you will need to be more thoughtful than most about how you spend each one (OTOH, you have the same number of hours as everyone else, and how you spend each of those matters too). If you can't do something now that you really want to do, rephrase it as I can't yet...
Reading between the lines, I think you have a pretty good handle on balance in life, but this thread is coming across as if you are complaining that you can't have things (like an efund) because of choices you have made and are sticking by.
Man... I think you hit this on the head! We've been thinking, If we can't retire, we're failures! when we spend most of our time building our business plan and what-not. There is a quote out there about if you're doing what you love, you don't need to retire.
:)
It's great that you've had this mental shift. Just make sure that you are also owning the downsides of this decision. Would you rather work in coffee until you drop dead (so potentially 60+ years), deal with the possibility of being laid off, not be able to contribute to your kid's college education (which is fine, but some people care deeply about doing so) and have to watch every penny you spend for life? Those aren't necessarily bad things. But you don't get to choose to good (I love working in coffee!) and not own the bad that comes with it, and a well-informed decision is one in which you look at all the things, not just the good, and still decide is the right choice.
If a Coffee Life is the priority, great! You are fortunate to have found your passion. But then you need to get your financial house in line with that priority. You can't afford Waldorf. Even if there's a penalty for withdraw, it seems like a sunk cost. You might not even be able to afford to work the same shifts as your wife, in order to cut childcare costs. You may not be able to afford to live in Seattle. (And if moving toward your own business is your goal, you need to be saving even more aggressively because there will be a time when the business is seeing money go out and at least one of you has quit your job, and you are going to need to be able to afford to live and to keep funding the business. How on earth are you going to do that without some very drastic changes?) You may need to downsize your apartment, even if that means going very small. You pick the priority, and then EVERYTHING ELSE has to be on the table in order to make that priority realistic. That's the part you seem to be missing. It's not just early retirement you are giving up. It's likely also retirement at all. And it's Waldorf and Seattle and cable and 2 cell phones, and just about everything else. You are going to need tens and tens of thousands of dollars in order to start your business and make it through the first year, all. You are not on that path right now. You've got the dream, but are you willing to truly do what it takes to make the dream happen?
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Coming in late, to beat the kindergarten thing to death -
I have a child starting K in SPS this year (a middle child, so we've done this before). If you want anything done, you go to the district office. It's a hassle. There will likely be a line. It will take more time than a normal human will think is necessary. Spend some quality time on the internet before you go so that you know you have everything you need.
The offices take a mid-summer break. They opened last Monday, August 8. (It was on my calendar, too). You can walk out of the district office with your completed school assignment. You are guaranteed an assignment at your zoned school (you can verify what that is online). This can be done via email or fax, but just go do it in person. It costs you nothing but time. Also, contrary to a previous poster, this is the first year kindergarten in Seattle is free for everyone.
You are going to have to navigate the Seattle Public School system in the future. Do it now, while it is lower stakes. There are lot of options (other than your neighborhood school) - in the future. Much easier to figure that out next spring when your daughter is in public K than coming in cold. Not all Seattle schools are good, but there are many good choices - and I believe your kindergarten option is just fine. I'm pretty sure I can identify it from the info you've posted- but I'm not interested in outing you. However, no Kindergarten in Seattle starts at 9:45 next year, so recheck your times.
I think Waldorf has a lot to offer children and I believe it is a great early years option. However, I make far more than your HHI and I think it is a luxury I cannot afford.
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Your daughter is only in kindergarten for another year (honestly, I'd seriously reconsider that expense in your current position; she's five, and will be going to public school next year and making friends, she will be able to handle the transition now just fine). After that year (or now), you'll have $832/month to again, put toward debt and then savings.
Although it might already be too late, I'd reconsider this too. When she goes to the public school, she'll be the only one who wasn't with the other kids during kindergarten, and will have to make friends in an environment where friendship groups have already been formed.
Or maybe it doesn't work that way with such young kids. I dunno.
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David,
Regarding the title of your thread. May I suggest "We may never reach that financial freedom. Here's why that's okay."
You may not reach what I or others here want from FF, but I think you are closer to what you want from FF than you give yourself credit for.
...
Man... I think you hit this on the head! We've been thinking, If we can't retire, we're failures! when we spend most of our time building our business plan and what-not. There is a quote out there about if you're doing what you love, you don't need to retire.
:)
Boom... So glad that was useful.
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Not retiring early or not retiring at all isn't a failure. But not having any kind of financial cushion isn't a good situation. You should still work on lowering expenses and saving, perpetually living hand to mouth is stressful. I've never done it, but this is what I hear from those that do.
Just don't want you to leave here thinking nothing needs to change. A paycheck to paycheck situation can get dire fast. And opening a shop or roasting operation is probably going to mean initially taking a pay cut while you get things started. The shop DH works for is a few years in and the owner is still not pulling in what he did managing someone else's shop. And it looks hugely successful on the outside. (I think he will get there, it's just going to take time.)
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Hey DavidDoes,
Too many comments to read through them all so I'll apologize in advance for any redundancy. I will, however, refer you to this:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/12/avoiding-ivy-league-preschool-syndrome/
Anyway, what's done is done. If you have a second kid, I'd suggest channeling MMM and perhaps taking an alternative route.
You'd like to own your own coffee shop. That's a great ambition to strive for. The issue is that it is going to take capital, and a LOT of it. That means you've got to get your spending under control so that you can save enough money to get that business going.
-> Can you move up/become a manager and make more money? It would also be super beneficial for if/when you start your own business.
Recommendations
1. Switch cell carriers when possible. In the meantime, perhaps reduce your cell plan to smaller data. You work in a coffee shop so you have free wifi. You also have internet at home. How much more data could you be using outside of those two places?
2. Internet: I also have Wave. I suggest calling and getting that sucker to $50/month. I call and complain every 12 months and they drop me back to $50. I never exceed the data cap, even with constant Netflix running so I suggest downgrading to their cheaper plan. (I also bought my own router so I don't have to pay rent for theirs).
3. Pay off that discover card. You don't have a car, which is what I think my emergency fund would go towards (car repairs, dentist). You both have health insurance so I'm wondering what other emergencies you'd need to really save $500 per month for?
4. If renter's insurance isn't mandatory at your apartment, ditch it unless your place is furnished with ridiculously expensive stuff. Trust me, if anything happened it would be a blessing to have less stuff. (MMM article, the more you own, the more it owns you).
5. Spotify Premium: Ditch it!! Doesn't your coffee shop play music? Use free Pandora or torrent a bunch of stuff. This is wasteful IMO. (MMM article, a millionaire is made $10 at a time).
Total potential monthly savings from items 1-5
1. By either reducing your data or switching carriers, let's say $20
2. $10
3. $100
4. $10.95
5. $16.41
Total: $166.36
If you invested that money each month into one of the index funds for the next 10 years, you'd have an extra $28,780.28 sitting in your stash. (multiplied by 173)
In order to retire, you need to save 25x your annual expenses. Well, $166.36*12 = $1996.32 per year you're spending on those things. 25x 1996.32 is just shy of $50,000!!!! YOU CAN SHAVE OFF YOUR TARGET RETIREMENT AMOUNT!!!
For each of your monthly expenses, multiply it by 12 months, then by 25. That's how much you need in your nest egg to cover that expense indefinitely. You spend $400 per month on groceries, that means you need $120,000 of your stash built up just to cover that portion of your expense. In theory, if you had a $120k stash and withdrew 4% per year you'd be able to cover all of your food costs indefinitely. (Read up on MMM The 4% rule & Trinity Study)
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David,
Regarding the title of your thread. May I suggest "We may never reach that financial freedom. Here's why that's okay."
You may not reach what I or others here want from FF, but I think you are closer to what you want from FF than you give yourself credit for.
I want FIRE so that I can stop paid work, do some volunteering and never be compelled to deal with a stupid manager ever again. Your dream seems a lot more similar to what you are doing right now than a lot of the other worker bees on the forum (no offence forumites).
Consider this: If you woke up tomorrow with your mustache fully funded, I think you would choose to spend much of your day working in a coffee shop, or working with coffee in some way. If I woke up tomorrow and the 'stache fairies had been my days would look very different to today (e.g. I would not be sitting in boring meetings or filling in a timesheet).
If you are happy with parts of your life, that's okay. Maybe if you feel resistance to making a change (e.g. the Waldorf), instead of telling us why you can't do something, tell us that you choose to do something else. If you choose to stay in Seattle because of the coffee culture, that's okay; but it's different from being unable to move. However, in order to do this you will need to be brutally honest with yourself, you can only spend each dollar once, and while you are working for relatively low wages you will need to be more thoughtful than most about how you spend each one (OTOH, you have the same number of hours as everyone else, and how you spend each of those matters too). If you can't do something now that you really want to do, rephrase it as I can't yet...
Reading between the lines, I think you have a pretty good handle on balance in life, but this thread is coming across as if you are complaining that you can't have things (like an efund) because of choices you have made and are sticking by.
Man... I think you hit this on the head! We've been thinking, If we can't retire, we're failures! when we spend most of our time building our business plan and what-not. There is a quote out there about if you're doing what you love, you don't need to retire.
:)
It's great that you've had this mental shift. Just make sure that you are also owning the downsides of this decision. Would you rather work in coffee until you drop dead (so potentially 60+ years), deal with the possibility of being laid off, not be able to contribute to your kid's college education (which is fine, but some people care deeply about doing so) and have to watch every penny you spend for life? Those aren't necessarily bad things. But you don't get to choose to good (I love working in coffee!) and not own the bad that comes with it, and a well-informed decision is one in which you look at all the things, not just the good, and still decide is the right choice.
If a Coffee Life is the priority, great! You are fortunate to have found your passion. But then you need to get your financial house in line with that priority. You can't afford Waldorf. Even if there's a penalty for withdraw, it seems like a sunk cost. You might not even be able to afford to work the same shifts as your wife, in order to cut childcare costs. You may not be able to afford to live in Seattle. (And if moving toward your own business is your goal, you need to be saving even more aggressively because there will be a time when the business is seeing money go out and at least one of you has quit your job, and you are going to need to be able to afford to live and to keep funding the business. How on earth are you going to do that without some very drastic changes?) You may need to downsize your apartment, even if that means going very small. You pick the priority, and then EVERYTHING ELSE has to be on the table in order to make that priority realistic. That's the part you seem to be missing. It's not just early retirement you are giving up. It's likely also retirement at all. And it's Waldorf and Seattle and cable and 2 cell phones, and just about everything else. You are going to need tens and tens of thousands of dollars in order to start your business and make it through the first year, all. You are not on that path right now. You've got the dream, but are you willing to truly do what it takes to make the dream happen?
Well put. Said another way: if you aren't willing to cut an expense to achieve your dream, then you have just prioritized that expense above your dream.
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Have you worked out the math to see what it would look like if you or your wife quit working and take care of your daughter? I would imagine you would qualify for the earned income credit, food stamps and maybe housing vouchers.
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Your kid goes to the school for which you're zoned. That's how public schools work, by default, almost everywhere.
Unless you have creative paperwork.
My wife altered my daughters birth certificate (or a copy) to get her in kindergarten
a year early*. Then made a false rental agreement to put both of my kids in the better
middle school and high school district. (immigrants run with different rules) (OK, some)
I think we're past the statute of limitations, daughter graduated from college 4 years ago.
*I knew a kindergarten teacher, she ran my daughter through some tests and
said she was more than ready for kindergarten. I got a scolding though, she ask me, "how
come you never taught your daughter how to skip?" I guess it was not part of my wife's culture,
leaving it up to me. She never had any social problems fit right in with the older kids.
Funny story, her Kindergarten teacher told me. The teacher noted during the day my daughter
went into a bit of a funk. She ask her what's up, my daughter responded, " I'm going start keeping
everything I know under a sheet." Huh? After some more quizzing, the teacher realized she had been
delegating to my daughter, the job of helping other students a little to much, and my daughter had had enough!
It's also highly location dependent. "No Child Left Behind" created some rules. Here in CA, here's how they worked: if you were attending a "failing" school per NCLB, then you were allowed a transfer.
The "failing" definition was not quite arbitrary, but odd. Based on test scores, you were failing if your school scored a "1" out of "10". In this case, you were allowed to transfer within the district and to another district.
Your school was *also* deemed failing (Title 1) if it didn't improve enough year to year. That meant that some *good* schools were listed as failing, which allowed parents to transfer students from a "7" school to a "10" school.
Now, NCLB is done, but our district still allows transfers. These have changed a bit over the years. There are priorities: 1. children of teachers at the school, 2. siblings of students at the school, 3. children of district employees, 4. children at schools who score a 1, 5. All others. Now, they have changed things more recently:
1. children who have problems with safety/ bullying at their old school get priority #1
2. when it comes to transfers that are not children of teachers/ siblings/ district employee kids...they are now prioritizing "English learners and socioeconomically disadvantaged". So, that doesn't mean an upper middle class white kid can't get a transfer, but it's unlikely to happen until 3rd grade.
Each year, families at failing schools get a letter about the school and a list of the schools that they can transfer into - with no real information about how many spots in each grade. Surprisingly, there were 3 on the list this year. (First few years there was only 1, the district-less alternative school, which is kind of crunchy with WORSE test scores than my current school). The other 2 schools on the list are #1 and #3. You are unlikely to get into the #1 school, despite it being on the list. You are only allowed to choose one school, and if there is no space then you are out of luck.
Interestingly, there was a family at our school (English learner) whose daughter made GATE and opted to transfer. She was miserable. A lot more homework, no friends, no time for soccer. Cried herself to sleep every night. After a year they decided to come back. Apparently, the director of the GATE program at the school slotted her to a MUCH worse school, just to be an asshole (I'm not 100% sure this is kosher. In fact, I told the person who was giving me this info that they should just go to the district and re-register at our current school, which is not full. In otherwise, go AROUND the asshole.)
Likewise - there is a district with 3 elementary schools next door that is very highly rated because the houses are estates, really. I knew of at least one person who got their kid into the school by using a friend's address. They cracked down on that and said friend opted to pull out because at that point, she'd be asking her daughters to lie about where they live for 7 years. We could have attended that district because of the NCLB and our home school being a "1".
Just on the other side of that district is another district with 8-10 elementary schools that feed into the same JH/high school district that we do. THAT district allows ZERO transfers from outside the district (unless you teach AT THE SCHOOL) and they do not allow ANY transfers within the district.
In short (too late I know), there are open transfers in our district. About 30% of the students in our home school transfer out. About 30% of the students in the school we attend are transfers in, and probably 20% transfer out. Private schools abound.
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OP has taken a lot of harsh criticism on this thread. To some degree it's understandable, but I think a part of the harshness may stem from some prejudice against the BK and possibly the subsidized housing when a voluntary income decreasing job change took place. If I'm right on that, forget those folks because many of them (like me) plan on ACA subsidies and Roth IRA conversions, taking advantage of legal breaks available, same dif.
Another point to mention, many folks on this forum got their shit together really young, I am not one of them. As far as I'm concerned you are still young and have the right to be "wishy washy" about future plans of owning a home, starting a business, career changes, etc. People in general are horrible about predicting what will make them happy a year from now, forget about 10 or 30. If your current job/life situation truly makes you happy, stick with it until it doesn't. No amount of money is worth absolutely hating your job! Been there, done that, not worth it!
Once the tuition is gone (this year or next) your situation is bright! You'll be saving a third of your income or more using the good cost cutting advice you received. In five years or so you'll have a powerful six figure FU fund, living a relatively frugal lifestyle, and still only be in your early 30's. Not too shabby! Keep it up and parlay your above average liquid wealth into a house, starting a small biz, a new career, or a jump start on FIRE by moving to a lCOL area. Whatever suits your fancy at that time. I only wish I was as smart as you are at 28.
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Your daughter is only in kindergarten for another year (honestly, I'd seriously reconsider that expense in your current position; she's five, and will be going to public school next year and making friends, she will be able to handle the transition now just fine). After that year (or now), you'll have $832/month to again, put toward debt and then savings.
Although it might already be too late, I'd reconsider this too. When she goes to the public school, she'll be the only one who wasn't with the other kids during kindergarten, and will have to make friends in an environment where friendship groups have already been formed.
Or maybe it doesn't work that way with such young kids. I dunno.
Lots of kids move from private to public at either the K or 1st grade level, and adapt quickly. But Waldorf is pretty quirky academically, and I'm not sure that staying just for K is a great idea. I am highly sympathetic to wanting your kid to stay with her friends, but I think there's a good chance that she'll miss some stuff academically by moving at that particular point.
And I agree that it's a big, big expense in the OP's budget, and I think that his kid would actually be benefited more by financial stability than by private school.
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Lots of kids move from private to public at either the K or 1st grade level, and adapt quickly.
it builds character. That's what I was told anyways ;)
my family moved a bunch through elementary school, before finally putting down roots through high school.
when I was in my twenties, I swore my kids wouldn't go through the same shuffling every few years.
But then I changed my mind and my daughter has changed school after K and 1st grades.
Kids are super resilient!
on the topic of costco/amazon, there are a few other competitors to try out, like jet.com and boxed.com.
selection of inventory may not be as good, but they have the same deal where buying $50 gives you free shipping.
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OP has taken a lot of harsh criticism on this thread. To some degree it's understandable, but I think a part of the harshness may stem from some prejudice against the BK and possibly the subsidized housing when a voluntary income decreasing job change took place. If I'm right on that, forget those folks because many of them (like me) plan on ACA subsidies and Roth IRA conversions, taking advantage of legal breaks available, same dif.
*snip*
Possibly, and I think another source of criticism has been because some commenters are pretty biased against careers in the service/coffee industry. But, I think most of the criticism (including mine) comes because it seems like OP's early posts were a little ... complainy-pants. (TBH, I kind of hate that word most of the time on this forum/the blog). The universe is not conspiring against him to keep him from ever getting ahead. He is in his current money crunch because of easily identifiable choices he made. If he's happy with those choices, fine. He can own them and try to figure out other ways to optimize. But living in an expensive city on under $50k per year while sending a kid to an ivy league preschool is not some random curse from the heavens; a LOT of those variables are in his control to change if he wishes. If he doesn't wish, fine, but he can't complain like he's getting unfairly screwed over.
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You are going to have to navigate the Seattle Public School system in the future. Do it now, while it is lower stakes. There are lot of options (other than your neighborhood school) - in the future. Much easier to figure that out next spring when your daughter is in public K than coming in cold. Not all Seattle schools are good, but there are many good choices - and I believe your kindergarten option is just fine. I'm pretty sure I can identify it from the info you've posted- but I'm not interested in outing you. However, no Kindergarten in Seattle starts at 9:45 next year, so recheck your times.
I think Waldorf has a lot to offer children and I believe it is a great early years option. However, I make far more than your HHI and I think it is a luxury I cannot afford.
I want to be able to apply for APP First Grade (missed the deadline for APP Kindergarten this year – wasn't the deadline in the first week of January or something?).
Our elementary school is Lowell, which just got another new principal for this coming year – the third in, what, five years? Testing scores are very low, but family reviews of the school seem positive. Pretty apprehensive.
My mistake – the bell starts at 9:35. :) Here is the new bell schedule. (http://www.seattleschools.org/cms/one.aspx?pageId=11401489)
OP has taken a lot of harsh criticism on this thread. To some degree it's understandable, but I think a part of the harshness may stem from some prejudice against the BK and possibly the subsidized housing when a voluntary income decreasing job change took place. If I'm right on that, forget those folks because many of them (like me) plan on ACA subsidies and Roth IRA conversions, taking advantage of legal breaks available, same dif.
Another point to mention, many folks on this forum got their shit together really young, I am not one of them. As far as I'm concerned you are still young and have the right to be "wishy washy" about future plans of owning a home, starting a business, career changes, etc. People in general are horrible about predicting what will make them happy a year from now, forget about 10 or 30. If your current job/life situation truly makes you happy, stick with it until it doesn't. No amount of money is worth absolutely hating your job! Been there, done that, not worth it!
Once the tuition is gone (this year or next) your situation is bright! You'll be saving a third of your income or more using the good cost cutting advice you received. In five years or so you'll have a powerful six figure FU fund, living a relatively frugal lifestyle, and still only be in your early 30's. Not too shabby! Keep it up and parlay your above average liquid wealth into a house, starting a small biz, a new career, or a jump start on FIRE by moving to a lCOL area. Whatever suits your fancy at that time. I only wish I was as smart as you are at 28.
Thank you for the enforcement! Our families on both sides always commend us on being so frugal and being "able to send our daughter to Waldorf". That was great when Waldorf was the more affordable option, but now that it's not, we feel like fools. Hah! The bankruptcy was also a huge hit to our financial egos. We've always been really great with money. But hey! Things happen. :)
on the topic of costco/amazon, there are a few other competitors to try out, like jet.com and boxed.com.
selection of inventory may not be as good, but they have the same deal where buying $50 gives you free shipping.
Jet.com was recently purchased by Wal-Mart. Definitely not shopping there anymore! I'll check out boxed.com. Haven't heard of that one. :)
If he doesn't wish, fine, but he can't complain like he's getting unfairly screwed over.
I don't think I ever did approach it that way, and if it came out that way in text, then maybe I'm no published author. ;)
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I did not read all 3 pages, but I am sure people have pointed out you will soon have over $800 per month to invest. That is rather a LOT of money!
I would start reading advice on how to invest my savings if I were you.
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David -
There is no such thing as Kindergarten APP. You don't sign up for APP, either - you test into it. IQ is labile at this age (or at least results of IQ testing are labile). That means if your kid has an IQ in the 97th percentile, she may test at 99 or she may test at 97,92, or 95. Only one of those test results will enable placement in APP for first grade.
Also, why on earth would you APP? It is pretty much the exact opposite of Waldorf - incredibly fast paced academics. Right for some people, but not much overlap with the Waldorf crowd. Also, I believe they are implementing testing fees for non-SPS students who are in private school.
It is okay that you don't know these things yet - but navigating the school system takes a bit more than just signing up for kindergarten. There are a lot of forms, dates, etc - that you will likely miss if you are not currently in the system. The first APP deadline is sometime in October, I believe.
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I would start reading advice on how to invest my savings if I were you.
Once we have six months of EF in a liquid account, we will be doing index funds, I think. :)
Just opened Capital One 360 checking and savings accounts with .20% and .75% APY respectively. Trying to get Bank of Internet accounts set up (1.25%), but they're not being very helpful in doing so.
David -
There is no such thing as Kindergarten APP. You don't sign up for APP, either - you test into it. IQ is labile at this age (or at least results of IQ testing are labile). That means if your kid has an IQ in the 97th percentile, she may test at 99 or she may test at 97,92, or 95. Only one of those test results will enable placement in APP for first grade.
Also, why on earth would you APP? It is pretty much the exact opposite of Waldorf - incredibly fast paced academics. Right for some people, but not much overlap with the Waldorf crowd. Also, I believe they are implementing testing fees for non-SPS students who are in private school.
It is okay that you don't know these things yet - but navigating the school system takes a bit more than just signing up for kindergarten. There are a lot of forms, dates, etc - that you will likely miss if you are not currently in the system. The first APP deadline is sometime in October, I believe.
I must have been thinking of something else. It's been a while.
Our daughter shows advanced understanding of mathematics (fractions, multiplying visually and in head, adding/subtracting with ease), none of which has come from us helping her. This summer, we've started working a little more with her on math, and a lot more on reading and writing, and she's a sponge – like all kids!
We won't push her into anything, and will most likely do her first year of public w/o testing for APP, at the very least.
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APP doesn't technically exist anymore -- though people who went through Seattle schools even just a few years ago tend to still use the term more than the current official name (HCC = Highly Capable Cohort).
Here is the link to the skeleton version of the testing office's website:
http://www.seattleschools.org/cms/One.aspx?portalId=627&pageId=1548870
Testing application deadline will be in early October as noted by Beriberi. If you do decide to stick with Waldorf and want to have her tested, you should probably let them know ASAP. My impression is that Waldorf teachers/administrators may be very opposed to the idea of HCC and testing -- after all, they think that kids shouldn't start reading until relatively late, right?
The following two blogs have been very valuable resources for me as I have been navigating SPS for my daughter -- I actually just pulled her OUT of HCC testing (which was supposed to be today), because she got admitted to an option school that was not on the HCC pathway. We've decided to see how that works for her, and have her tested this fall. If she likes current school, she'll shift into Advanced Learning pathway there. If she isn't happy with the current school, we'll give the HCC pathway school a try next year.
http://discussapp.blogspot.com/
http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/
Be aware that both of these websites can turn into a bit of a rabbit hole and increase any anxiety you might have about SPS. There is a LOT of venting that goes on. I had to learn to read each comment with the mindset that I don't know if this family/kid has a legitimate gripe, or is just making mountains out of molehills. I think as far as big urban public schools go, SPS is not that bad. There are HUGE management issues and a lot of waste, and leadership is lacking across the board. But at the granular level of the classroom, I think most teachers are competent and doing a good job/providing a safe and healthy environment. Anyway, reading either of these blogs will give you a crash course in Seattle area civic engagement - lots of discussion of race, class, gender and what not.
I personally think you would be wise to give Lowell a try for K. It used to be a great school back in the day (I worked in a Montessori preschool in college and Lowell was one of the schools parents would jockey hard to get their kids into). The change of principal could actually be a good thing, if the last one was underperforming. Good parent feedback is important. Anyway, if you find it isn't working for your daughter for K, you can try to switch to an option school for G1. Be forwarned that those are hard to get into, too, though -- the K level waitlist at the option school my daughter finally got into was over 100 kids. There were 60+ on the G6 waitlist (we started at #1, dropped to #3 after some adjustments for application errors, and eventually got a slot in July). I don't know how mobile your subsidized housing setup is, but if you have the option to move so that you are in a different reference area to get priority for a school you want to change to you need to time it carefully.
OK, that got really long, but hopefully it is helpful. I've obviously been a bit obsessed with SPS the last few months, myself.....
Great info! Definitely have to learn about Option schools. Ah, that page is the one that lead me to believe there was a K APP, because it says "Grades K-8".
Thanks so much!
Yes, Waldorf teaches parents to not encourage any academic growth until Grade 1. But she, along with five of her classmates that I know of, show initiative and wonder towards the academics, so we parents cater accordingly. The teachers understand that as well. They're taught to preserve innocence, but they (at least the ones we got) understand that children grow at a self-driven pace.
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So...to summarize...a guy and his wife willingly work in low-paying jobs in a HCOL city; the guy creates this thread to complain about not having enough money, and then spends numerous pages worth of posts defending his spending. Ok. Was this thread the ultimate troll?
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So...to summarize...a guy and his wife willingly work in low-paying jobs in a HCOL city; the guy creates this thread to complain about not having enough money, and then spends numerous pages worth of posts defending his spending. Ok. Was this thread the ultimate troll?
yeah i mean at the end of the day he probably should start his own blog about this b/c its not a mustachian life he is trying to lead. its spend a bunch of money basically all you make but do a job that makes you happy til you die.
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That sounds like a much healthier dynamic than I have heard of in some Waldorf environments, which quite honestly have sounded a bit kooky. Glad the info was helpful. Do look into the Option options. Some are really great. I was really impressed by Salmon Bay over in Ballard, but we were outside the geozone for that so likelihood of admission was low. I THOUGHT we would be a shoo in for Hazel Wolf, as it was literally across the street (and down two blocks) from our last apartment, but we ended up on the wait list for several anxious weeks. I'm still a little nervous that they will ask us to re-prove our address before school starts, and that they will kick us off because we are no longer in the geozone (couldn't find a suitable 3br nearby when I needed to move). In any event, I'm not going to put in the change of address form until DD's butt has been firmly in her seat at Hazel Wolf for a week or two.
SPS actually puts up pretty good information about the option school enrollment statistics that can help you get a sense of which schools are easier or harder to get into. Though it can change. Hazel Wolf is moving into a new building this year, which is probably why there was a surge in demand. But if you are not dealing with that kind of a situation you can look back at the waitlist data for several years to see roughly how many kids were admitted at each grade level.
QAE looks awesome! And quite opposite of what Waldorf teaches. We believe that kids are sponges and do well in multiple types of environments. Ours just happens to tinker in a bit of everything – outdoors, arts, math, science. I think most kids are that way too, though.
So...to summarize...a guy and his wife willingly work in low-paying jobs in a HCOL city; the guy creates this thread to complain about not having enough money, and then spends numerous pages worth of posts defending his spending. Ok. Was this thread the ultimate troll?
yeah i mean at the end of the day he probably should start his own blog about this b/c its not a mustachian life he is trying to lead. its spend a bunch of money basically all you make but do a job that makes you happy til you die.
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I actually wasn't complaining, but reaching out. I think by this point most people in this thread understand that.
Not that I have anything to prove to you, but you need to understand that our lives did not start when I made this post. We've lived the last few years making financial decisions for the better.
- In 2012, we moved from Idaho to Washington. Income boost from $18,000 to $30,000
- In 2013, we pay off our car and student loans. DEBT FREE! Monthly savings increased by $350.
- In 2014, we purchased a house. Mortgage payment $200/mo less than rent. But +2.5 hours every day in commuting and +$300/mo in maintenance/insurance costs, +200/mo in heating costs.
- Late 2014, our car was totaled. We purchased a new one w/ a loan. +350/mo in loan payments & insurance.
- In 2015, we completed our bankruptcy almost exactly one year after purchasing the house.
- Between 2012 and 2015, I received promotions and accepted a new job, and my wife went back to work. Income improvement from $30,000 to $72,000.
- Wife's parents were living with us and helping care for child while they got situated after moving from Idaho to Washington. Free Child Care!
- Wife's parents move out, we're looking at $1,500/mo for daycare. We find Waldorf for $754/mo (for that year). Saved $746/mo over daycare.
- Before kiddo starts school, the property I worked at was selling. I did not want to retain employment with them, and also needed to figure out the logistics of getting kiddo to/from school. If I wanted to work part-time instead of hiring someone, I could afford to lose $20,000/yr (The cost for 4 hours of child care, 5x per week. That's not even counting extended summer care.)
- Took part-time job in industry that I want to be in. Loss of $12,500/yr*, but the lower costs of child care more than make up for it.
- In the middle of the winter of 2015, we sell our car (that we now owned), and got bicycles. Savings of $200/mo.
- Because of the new work schedule, we only need to find care for her for a couple of hours 3x per week during the summer. We find a summer camp that is $50/day that lasts from 7:30 A - 6:00 P, and we can drop her off or pick her up at any point in that time-frame.
We've done the math. Financially and emotionally, this is a better position for us. You don't have to read this thread. But what we have been worried about is being able to save enough. And I think we've addressed those concerns here. We will be doing public school, we've paid off our last debt, and I did something that the community didn't mention – switching to a bank with higher yield. Granted, this is a tiny improvement, but I'll take the extra $40/month on my savings... Then we will start thinking about retirement/index funds.
* Just looked at my spreadsheet that I keep for all the tips I receive. I am making $22/hr as a barista, working 30 hours/wk. We are slated to make ~$55-62,000 this year. Much higher than I previously estimated.
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I think OP should be commended for doing whatever they needed to do to score subsidized housing in the extremely competitive Seattle market (esp in Capitol Hill -- definitely look into at least PT Air BnBing to maximize income earning potential. Your daughter can sleep in your bedroom a couple of nights a month if you can't find opportunities for her to sleep over with friends/relatives, and then you can rent out her room/bathroom for a higher rate rather than expecting guests to sleep on the sofa).
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Be careful with this. Make sure taking in a roommate or AirBnB-ing won't jeopardize the housing subsidy.
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to lose an amazingly generous subsidy.
OP:
54k a year gross income with 21k (1750 per month) in rental subsidies means the city is supplementing your current lifestyle by 38% (21k of a 75k lifestyle). You'll need to raise your income 38% just to have the same lifestyle on the open market.
This is all well and good as long as you're honest about the numbers that qualify for you the help. You need to know the limit you can increase your income before the help phases out, and factor that into your plans for side hustles and the next major move in your lives (which I image is to a lower COL area). As others have mentioned contingency planning is key here. What happens when this help is no longer available? Develop realistic plans to step into something as good or better when the opportunity is there.
If it were me I'd spend this time gaining experience and learning as much as I can about the coffee business while squeezing the maximum savings out of the income I can earn while keeping the subsidy. So all expenses are on the table. Including school.
In the mean time I would be very grateful that I can live in one of the most dynamic and desirable neighborhoods in the country while working a lower paying passion job. It's a huge luxury. Don't take it for granted.
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Be careful with this. Make sure taking in a roommate or AirBnB-ing won't jeopardize the housing subsidy.
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to lose an amazingly generous subsidy.
OP:
54k a year gross income with 21k (1750 per month) in rental subsidies means the city is supplementing your current lifestyle by 38% (21k of a 75k lifestyle). You'll need to raise your income 38% just to have the same lifestyle on the open market.
This is all well and good as long as you're honest about the numbers that qualify for you the help. You need to know the limit you can increase your income before the help phases out, and factor that into your plans for side hustles and the next major move in your lives (which I image is to a lower COL area). As others have mentioned contingency planning is key here. What happens when this help is no longer available? Develop realistic plans to step into something as good or better when the opportunity is there.
If it were me I'd spend this time gaining experience and learning as much as I can about the coffee business while squeezing the maximum savings out of the income I can earn while keeping the subsidy. So all expenses are on the table. Including school.
In the mean time I would be very grateful that I can live in one of the most dynamic and desirable neighborhoods in the country while working a lower paying passion job. It's a huge luxury. Don't take it for granted.
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You're absolutely right on all accounts. And yes, we definitely understand how fortunate we are – we actually had to put money down before seeing the unit because of how in-demand and competitive this program can be. We went from a studio apartment [with no amenities] to this 2x2 [with all the amenities] for only $100 more a month, so we really do understand how fortunate we are.
As for being honest on the numbers – of course! We actually have to submit our financial info every year with this program. And all of the information is readily accessible online, and the individual representing the program is very easy to get a hold of. :)
Quality post. Thank you for contributing!
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Hello again, folks.
I wanted to post an update on our progress, and I wasn't sure that creating a new topic would be the best route. So I'm reviving this old topic.
This month marks our last silly tuition payment to our daughter's school. Next school year, she will be entering public school. Unfortunately, we live in a poor school zone – I've tried to get into contact with them, and have spoken with parents there, and it just doesn't rub well with me. They have very poor test scores as well. Therefore, we are planning on moving to another neighborhood by September. We've already looked into and toured the schools in other neighborhoods, and the apartments are within our budget, especially staying on the rent program that we are on.
Tonight, I went over a six month recap of our finances, and we went over-budget on all of the non-fixed budget items. That is, ones like groceries, health & beauty, etc. where it's not an actual bill coming in. Unfortunately, this means we failed a bit. Fortunately, this means a sobering moment and a time for reflection.
With a couple of tiny windfalls, we "decided" that we "needed" a television. Seven years of marriage and six years of rearing a child, and we never needed one before. Now, just four months after having purchased it, we absolutely despise it. Chalk it up to a lesson learned. So that was one bad decision.
Some other poor decisions may not have really been decisions, but unplanned circumstances. Our grocery budget averaged out to being $133 over per month. Unacceptable. I feel that $400/month for three people should be doable. We also spent way too much on dining out. One budget item that has been costing us quite a bit is the Bicycles budget. We have been car-free for over a year now, but we are still learning some things. One of those being not to leave your lights on your bicycle if you don't want them stolen. Another is that we've finally learned to patch tubes properly (100 patches cost about as much as one tube), so that'll help cut costs. The cost of maintaining the bicycles are a bit more than anticipated, but I've also included in the Bicycles budget, any such gear used for bicycling, including rain gear.
All-in-all, I think we're doing okay. Starting next month, we are dedicating $950/month ($832 of which coming from the kiddo's tuition) toward moving costs for September, while still saving $500/month for general savings. After we move, we will finally be able to get healthcare for all of us, rather than just vision and dental. After getting healthcare, we should still be saving ~25% of our income (not calculating change in income).
I am starting a new position sometime in April or May, which should bring in ~$600/month. Also, I recently completed my course on Front-End Web Development, and am actively seeking side jobs to build my portfolio. Thankfully, I have built a small network of industry professionals, so I have some support there. Also thankfully, there are a few websites that pair you with open-source projects so that you can contribute code. This helps you not only build your portfolio, but also gain industry experience, and exposes you to working individually, as a team, and working with unfamiliar languages/frameworks/etc.
I am also super happy to report that our daughter's account hit $100 the other day! She earns $.25 every evening for cleaning up, helping us clean up dinner, feeding the pets, watering plants, and getting ready for bed in a timely manner. If she does this extraordinarily independently, she gets a $.25 reward. She is never reminded about the reward, so anytime she does it is because she was being honestly superb. ;)
I have been reading How Children Succeed by Paul Tough, and in it one of the character strengths of successful individuals that stood out to me was the ability to persevere through boring or meaningless tasks, or delayed gratification. Well, I also know this is something my daughter struggles with, so I have been working with her. Much to my surprise and delight, she told me a couple of weeks ago that she didn't want to spend any of her money until it was over $100. This made my heart sing. :)
By the way – does anyone have any suggestions for what to use her money for? I feel sort of guilty if she says she wants something, and I'm not sure where the money for it should come from. For instance, we got her a paint set a few weeks ago. I'm not sure something like that should come out of her money... I also don't want her to go around spending money on frivolous things. We try to keep only items that we use and that bring us joy.
Thanks for reading this update!
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Start her on 3 money buckets. % for long term savings , % charity, and a % for whatever she wants - frivolous or not.
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Start her on 3 money buckets. % for long term savings , % charity, and a % for whatever she wants - frivolous or not.
Ooh! Good idea!
We give to charities (incl. political campaigns – I know that's not a charity but the same type of expense) sometimes, but not on a regular basis. I think this is a great idea!
I'm thinking – ≥75% for Savings, 10% for Whatever, 15% for Charities. I'll give her a visual (she's really good with fractions already) and let her be part of the decision process for what portions go where.
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Start her on 3 money buckets. % for long term savings , % charity, and a % for whatever she wants - frivolous or not.
Ooh! Good idea!
We give to charities (incl. political campaigns – I know that's not a charity but the some ame type of expense) sometimes, but not on a regular basis. I think this is a great idea!
For a cool charity, check out www.kiva.org. With Kiva you can show your daughter how to help others become financially stable and support people in need. It would be nice for her to get a global perspective as well.
I'm thinking – ≥75% for Savings, 10% for Whatever, 15% for Charities. I'll give her a visual (she's really good with fractions already) and let her be part of the decision process for what portions go where.
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My first thought was Kiva, too! You can do microloans and see the individual person they are lending to and what they are using the money for. So it's also a mini-lesson on how loans work. Then hopefully as the person repays the loan, she will be able to loan the money out again to another person.