Warped rotors at 21k miles "you can't do anything about, it will happen again"

[Tester]

Hi,

Just been told by the service technician that warped rotors at 21k miles are "normal" on a 2021 Honda odyssey and that "it woll happen again".

Good thing that I leased it (my first lease) so I know to not buy it at the end.
I am still baffled that this is considered normal by a service....


Please let me know where to look in around one year for a minivan from a company without this attitude.
I am hoping for a plug in hybrid with awd and stow and go seats, but that one is not produced yet :⁠-⁠)

[innkeeper77]

I’d talk to a different dealer. That isn’t normal UNLESS you are driving the van like a car and really riding the brakes or something else that is user error..

Honda isn’t its dealers- you will find bad Toyota dealers, bad GM dealers, etc.

[JLee]

Improperly torqued lug nuts may result in warped rotors over time.

[chemistk]

This is unfortunately a very common occurrence with these vans. I have a 2014, and occasionally poke around the forums, and I'd say it's one of the top 5 issues (the others being: VCM, Fragile-ish transmissions, sliding door issues, and tire wear).

I want to be clear, it is by no means to ditch the vehicle. Honda tends to use softer OEM pads and rotors that aren't so great under the weights these vans place on them. From what I have heard this is a fairly common practice amongst Japanese automakers in general.

There are many reasons why these rotors warp and there's no consensus "that was it!" solution to the problem. Some of the most common reasons are: Improper pad bedding, too much brake usage in stop and go traffic, braking too hard too quickly, and improper lug nut torque.

The fix is easier if you own it and unfortunately you can't really take this avenue - go and install higher end aftermarket pads and rotors. I'd definitely accept what the dealership is telling you at face value on this one.

What you can do, if you've had them replaced, is try and modify your braking technique. Be deliberate but not aggressive - don't slowly let on your brakes but don't slam them to engage ABS either. Don't continually ride your brakes downhill or in stop and go traffic. Under these conditions, you'll build up pad material on the surface of the rotor which leads to very small hills and valleys on the surface. When you use the brakes heavily with it coated like this, certain parts of the rotor heat up faster than others which exacerbates the issue and leads to the pulsing that you typically associate with warped rotors.

In general, the above is always a good idea to practice regardless of the vehicle you're using.

[Syonyk]

Just been told by the service technician that warped rotors at 21k miles are "normal" on a 2021 Honda odyssey and that "it woll happen again".

If by "normal" they mean "happens a lot," I'm not terribly surprised.  And if they tell you "it will happen again," what they mean is, "If you keep driving it like you've been driving it, it will happen again."  And they're not wrong.

The good news is that the issue is almost always a driver technique issue, not one of the actual brakes.  And your rotors aren't warped, they're just unevenly thick.  From bad driving technique.

I believe it's StopTech that has a long series of deeply technical articles on the matter if you want to go into it at that level, but it boils down to pad deposits on the rotor leading to uneven heating of the rotor, which impacts the metallurgy of the rotor.

There's a long path one can go down with bedding brakes, getting a nice layer of pad material on the rotor, etc... and none of that is relevant to street cars, especially not a minivan.  Other than occasionally scrubbing the crud off.

A "warped rotor" (pulsing felt in the brake pedal and typically a slightly uneven deceleration) is caused by the rotor being uneven width - if it were actually warped slightly, the floating caliper would side back and forth and you wouldn't notice anything.  The uneven width, though, you do feel in the pedal.  There's a hard section on the rotor that doesn't wear as quickly as the rest, so it ends up being wider over time, and pushes back harder, and grips harder.  This keeps it hotter, which just keeps the cycle going - it's a positive feedback loop.

The original cause is almost always someone standing on the brakes after coming to a stop with very hot rotors and pads.  This leads to a pad-shaped deposit of material on the rotors, which will have higher friction in that section, so more heat, so you start the feedback loop.

The solution is simple enough: Don't stand on the brakes after coming to a hard stop when the rotors are hot - or at all, when stopped.  Once you stop, use as little pressure as possible to keep the car from moving, and you won't get the pad-shaped deposits.  If the rotors are hot, after coming down a mountain or something, try to avoid stopping if you can.  Plan your deceleration to avoid it if possible, and if not, and you're on level ground, use neutral and don't let the hot pads press into the hot rotors.  You don't want that transfer to happen in one spot.

And every now and then, ride the brakes a bit - not much, but if nobody is behind you and you've got no reason to stop any time soon, get a couple good prods in while you're rolling - enough that you feel it, 10 seconds or so at a time, moderate pressure.  It doesn't have to be a brake bedding sequence, but you want to get the rotors a bit hot, and let the pads really start scrubbing anything off, and transferring a smooth layer of pad material to the rotors.

Do that, you shouldn't have the problems going forward.

Now, if you do end up with a hybrid/PHEV/EV/etc, remember that they're prone to the opposite problem - brake calipers seizing up from lack of use.  For those, every now and then, usually rolling down a hill, pop them into neutral (which disables regen braking on all that I'm aware of) and use the friction brakes moderately to keep them freed up and moving.

[Alternatepriorities]

I can't speak to the Honda Odyssey in particular, but after replacing a friends hardly worn but "warped" rotors this summer I learned that rapid cooling the rotors can cause "warping". For example if you've been riding your brakes a lot and then hit a puddle. I never gave it any thought before this summer, but it makes sense metallurgically now that I have. Rapidly cooling one part of the rotor should change increase the hardness of the steel in that section which then won't wear as fast as the rest of the rotor. The could be another way of creating the high spots Syonyk mentioned.

The good news is that rotors are pretty easy to replace yourself and not that expensive.

I don't know if anyone does it where you are, but when I was in college in NM some parts stores offered lifetime warranties on brake parts assuming you'd sell the car before wearing them out... I think I went through three sets of pads for the price of one on my first (very used) car before giving it to charity.

[GilesMM]

Unless it really bothers you, I would just live with it. My rotors feel warped on hard braking but I ignore it.

[Askel]

I had an old jeep cherokee that would warp the rotors every 20k or so no matter how nice I tried to be to the brakes. The good news was that cherokee parts tooling had been paid off so long ago, a new set of rotors was cheaper than getting the old ones turned.   

Replacing rotors is a pretty easy home mechanic job.  Get a second set, have them all turned and ready to go for when you need to swap them out. Then get the warped ones turned.  Repeat until there's not enough material left to turn them. 

[Tester]

Car is used by me and my wife and I would say I am a very "light" user of brakes - meaning I let the car slow down, don't hit the brakes and so on.
Usually the service is surprised about the light wear on the pads on my cars.
I am staying on the brakes at lights, will try to not be fully on them?

Regarding bothering me, I can't ignore it as I see it as a safety issue (or my paranoia sees it like this).

Will try to follow advice here regarding braking habits and hopefully this won't happen again until I have to decide if I keep the car or not after the lease.

I leased it as I needed a minivan in 2021 and I was not ready to pay the high prices for a used one or to pay the 50k for the only hybrid minivans available at that time. I said let's lease this one and will revisit in 3 years. At the moment it was the cheapest minivan I found in a 150 miles radius :⁠-⁠).

[chemistk]

Car is used by me and my wife and I would say I am a very "light" user of brakes - meaning I let the car slow down, don't hit the brakes and so on.
Usually the service is surprised about the light wear on the pads on my cars.
I am staying on the brakes at lights, will try to not be fully on them?

Regarding bothering me, I can't ignore it as I see it as a safety issue (or my paranoia sees it like this).

Will try to follow advice here regarding braking habits and hopefully this won't happen again until I have to decide if I keep the car or not after the lease.

I leased it as I needed a minivan in 2021 and I was not ready to pay the high prices for a used one or to pay the 50k for the only hybrid minivans available at that time. I said let's lease this one and will revisit in 3 years. At the moment it was the cheapest minivan I found in a 150 miles radius :⁠-⁠).

It tends not to be a safety issue for a car of this age. Over time, it can cause additional (but very rarely critical, and exceedingly so in low mileage vehicles) wear and tear on steering and suspension components but it's not going to take the vehicle off the road. It's not necessarily the most pleasant experience but ironically you're going to feel it more if you're relatively light on the brakes than if you're deliberate.

[Syonyk]

...but ironically you're going to feel it more if you're relatively light on the brakes than if you're deliberate.

Yeah, worth trying about a dozen 60-15s.  Empty the van out so you can do it at about 80% of dry pavement traction, you don't want to be into antilocks but neither do you want to be too far away from it.  Then go drive about 20 miles to cool the brakes off, they'll be toasty after that.  If you start getting into serious fade, you're done, don't completely cook them.

[Tester]

Got the car, they had to resurface the rotors twice...
For now all fine :⁠-⁠).

I got once to fading when a friend was pressing me on a long mountain descent, not fun. Luckily I realized it and managed to stop on the grass on the inside of a tight turn. So I will be careful to not overheat the brakes if somehow they start pulsating again. I am not expecting this for at least 15k miles though, this was when I started feeling the first signs.

[rothwem]

Just been told by the service technician that warped rotors at 21k miles are "normal" on a 2021 Honda odyssey and that "it woll happen again".

If by "normal" they mean "happens a lot," I'm not terribly surprised.  And if they tell you "it will happen again," what they mean is, "If you keep driving it like you've been driving it, it will happen again."  And they're not wrong.

The good news is that the issue is almost always a driver technique issue, not one of the actual brakes.  And your rotors aren't warped, they're just unevenly thick.  From bad driving technique.

I believe it's StopTech that has a long series of deeply technical articles on the matter if you want to go into it at that level, but it boils down to pad deposits on the rotor leading to uneven heating of the rotor, which impacts the metallurgy of the rotor.

There's a long path one can go down with bedding brakes, getting a nice layer of pad material on the rotor, etc... and none of that is relevant to street cars, especially not a minivan.  Other than occasionally scrubbing the crud off.

A "warped rotor" (pulsing felt in the brake pedal and typically a slightly uneven deceleration) is caused by the rotor being uneven width - if it were actually warped slightly, the floating caliper would side back and forth and you wouldn't notice anything.  The uneven width, though, you do feel in the pedal.  There's a hard section on the rotor that doesn't wear as quickly as the rest, so it ends up being wider over time, and pushes back harder, and grips harder.  This keeps it hotter, which just keeps the cycle going - it's a positive feedback loop.

The original cause is almost always someone standing on the brakes after coming to a stop with very hot rotors and pads.  This leads to a pad-shaped deposit of material on the rotors, which will have higher friction in that section, so more heat, so you start the feedback loop.

The solution is simple enough: Don't stand on the brakes after coming to a hard stop when the rotors are hot - or at all, when stopped.  Once you stop, use as little pressure as possible to keep the car from moving, and you won't get the pad-shaped deposits.  If the rotors are hot, after coming down a mountain or something, try to avoid stopping if you can.  Plan your deceleration to avoid it if possible, and if not, and you're on level ground, use neutral and don't let the hot pads press into the hot rotors.  You don't want that transfer to happen in one spot.

And every now and then, ride the brakes a bit - not much, but if nobody is behind you and you've got no reason to stop any time soon, get a couple good prods in while you're rolling - enough that you feel it, 10 seconds or so at a time, moderate pressure.  It doesn't have to be a brake bedding sequence, but you want to get the rotors a bit hot, and let the pads really start scrubbing anything off, and transferring a smooth layer of pad material to the rotors.

Do that, you shouldn't have the problems going forward.

Now, if you do end up with a hybrid/PHEV/EV/etc, remember that they're prone to the opposite problem - brake calipers seizing up from lack of use.  For those, every now and then, usually rolling down a hill, pop them into neutral (which disables regen braking on all that I'm aware of) and use the friction brakes moderately to keep them freed up and moving.

While I don't totally disagree with this, I'll just add that the brakes on the Honda Odyssey just suck, and are prone to brake vibrations.  I've got an Acura MDX, which is the same platform (and brakes) as an Odyssey, and the brakes are constantly pulsing.  It makes me crazy, because the car is really nice to drive other than the brakes.  My understanding is that its due to two major, related factors--

-The brakes are undersized for such a large vehicle, so the rotors and pads get hotter than they would in other cars.  This is totally true--look at the back rotor, its not even vented.  My 13 year old BMW 3-series has bigger brake rotors and and vented rears and it weighs more than a thousand pounds less. 
-OEM pads are soft to give bite with such a large car with relatively small brakes, and thus are more prone to adhering to the brake disc when you come to a stop. 

Dummy me, we bought ours CPO at 50k, had brake vibration within 50 miles, so we brought it back to the dealership.  They turned the rotors and put new pads on for free and the brake vibration was gone...for 50 miles.  I probably could've called and gotten them to swap the rotors and brakes out again, but I think it would've just happened again.  My plan is to just deal with the vibration for now (brake as little as possible?) and upgrade the rotors when I do the next pad change. 

I also noticed that the BMW X5 has the same bolt pattern as the Odyssey/MDX, and also has delicious once piece calipers and enormous brakes.  I wonder how hard it would be to steal some off of a junkyard X5.  I'd have to find someone to machine some adapters and spacers though, and would probably need a different master cylinder.  Not too hard, right?

[chemistk]

I also noticed that the BMW X5 has the same bolt pattern as the Odyssey/MDX, and also has delicious once piece calipers and enormous brakes.  I wonder how hard it would be to steal some off of a junkyard X5.  I'd have to find someone to machine some adapters and spacers though, and would probably need a different master cylinder.  Not too hard, right?

I would definitely recommend against this. You're going to change how the ABS expects to operate, among other things. I would honestly just plan to get higher quality rotors and high performance pads - most Ody forumites tend to recommend this as the best approach, so long as you can bed them in correctly and keep the lugnuts torqued properly.

[ChickenStash]

I ran into a similar situation on my Ford sedan for probably the same reasons - undersized rotors and questionable pads. I got it used with 20k miles on it and it had "warped" rotors when I got it. When I pulled the front wheels to take a look, I saw the rotors weren't worn much but were a very thin design and small diameter for a car of that weight (bloated, like most modern cars). The rears aren't even vented. The pads are listed as a semi-ceramic material that I don't have a high opinion of, either.

I swapped them out right away for some StopTech Street pads and Centric (parent co. of StopTech) rotors and haven't had a problem since (50k miles later). Less expensive than the OE parts, better brake feel, and less likely to develop uneven deposits.

[rothwem]

I also noticed that the BMW X5 has the same bolt pattern as the Odyssey/MDX, and also has delicious once piece calipers and enormous brakes.  I wonder how hard it would be to steal some off of a junkyard X5.  I'd have to find someone to machine some adapters and spacers though, and would probably need a different master cylinder.  Not too hard, right?

I would definitely recommend against this. You're going to change how the ABS expects to operate, among other things. I would honestly just plan to get higher quality rotors and high performance pads - most Ody forumites tend to recommend this as the best approach, so long as you can bed them in correctly and keep the lugnuts torqued properly.

I'm just kidding about robbing the brakes off an X5, mostly because I think it would take a lot of time to engineer it correctly. With that said, I think that if I were to do it correctly it wouldn't mess with the ABS.  I think the trick would be matching piston sizes of the master and caliper sizes so that the traction control/ABS would be moving the same amount of fluid. 

I swapped them out right away for some StopTech Street pads and Centric (parent co. of StopTech) rotors and haven't had a problem since (50k miles later). Less expensive than the OE parts, better brake feel, and less likely to develop uneven deposits.

Yep, I was looking at a similar kit for my Acura.  I think that's ACTUALLY the way to go instead of X5 brakes I mentioned above.  But seriously, check these bad boys out:

[ChickenStash]

Yep, I was looking at a similar kit for my Acura.  I think that's ACTUALLY the way to go instead of X5 brakes I mentioned above.  But seriously, check these bad boys out:

Gotta love 'em. That's one of the things I always liked about BMW is they usually didn't mess around when it came to brakes.

I'm a little spoiled since my fun car has 6-piston front calipers with 14" rotors on a fairly light chassis (for a modern car). I wish my other car felt like that one.