Author Topic: VTI and Taxes  (Read 2033 times)

Cody75mx

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VTI and Taxes
« on: May 26, 2022, 05:49:05 AM »
Hey guys new MMM reader here. I am a single guy thinking of selling my house ( In Austin its getting way to expensive to live there anyway) and putting it all into the VTI fund. I am a travel nurse and for the foreseeable future will be travelling ( I make more this way) I am wanting to withdraw the earnings every year (never the original amount I put in) but I am confused on the tax implications. just to make things simple if I am making 7% a year and have to pay a long term capital gains tax of 15% obviously this would not work. So my question is how are people avoiding paying this tax? This is not for a retirement account this would be done with a brokerage account. Any and all advice is welcome. thanks =)

bacchi

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2022, 08:28:47 AM »
Why are you even selling your earnings? If you're earning money with a job, keep your investments working for you.

As for your question:

You invest $100,000.
At the end of the year, your account is now at $107,000.
You withdraw $7,000.
You pay 15% on the $7000, leaving you $5950 to spend.

dandarc

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2022, 08:41:28 AM »
+1 to "if you're still working why are you selling investments at all?" Read the stock series.

https://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/

seattlecyclone

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2022, 10:22:26 AM »
Why are you even selling your earnings? If you're earning money with a job, keep your investments working for you.

As for your question:

You invest $100,000.
At the end of the year, your account is now at $107,000.
You withdraw $7,000.
You pay 15% on the $7000, leaving you $5950 to spend.


You only pay tax on the full $7,000 if you sell all the shares and buy the other $100k worth back right away.

Capital gains are calculated on a per-share basis.

Suppose you buy 1,000 shares for $1.00 apiece. A year later those shares are each worth $1.07. You sell 65 of those shares to get your total balance back down to roughly $1,000. You pay capital gains only on those 65 shares. Your gain is 7¢ * 65 shares = $4.55. You pay 15% tax on $4.55, or 68¢ tax on your withdrawal of roughly $70.

That's just the first year. Next year if the stock increases another 7% to $1.145 you'll only need to sell 62 shares to get your $70 of gains out. The capital gain is calculated from the price you bought the shares: $1.00. Your gain is now 14.5¢ * 62 = $8.99, meaning you pay $1.35 of tax on the same amount withdrawn.

bacchi

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2022, 03:01:03 PM »
Why are you even selling your earnings? If you're earning money with a job, keep your investments working for you.

As for your question:

You invest $100,000.
At the end of the year, your account is now at $107,000.
You withdraw $7,000.
You pay 15% on the $7000, leaving you $5950 to spend.


You only pay tax on the full $7,000 if you sell all the shares and buy the other $100k worth back right away.

Capital gains are calculated on a per-share basis.

Suppose you buy 1,000 shares for $1.00 apiece. A year later those shares are each worth $1.07. You sell 65 of those shares to get your total balance back down to roughly $1,000. You pay capital gains only on those 65 shares. Your gain is 7¢ * 65 shares = $4.55. You pay 15% tax on $4.55, or 68¢ tax on your withdrawal of roughly $70.

That's just the first year. Next year if the stock increases another 7% to $1.145 you'll only need to sell 62 shares to get your $70 of gains out. The capital gain is calculated from the price you bought the shares: $1.00. Your gain is now 14.5¢ * 62 = $8.99, meaning you pay $1.35 of tax on the same amount withdrawn.

Oops, yeah, I really spaced out on that answer. Thanks, sc.


(I'll blame it on covid fog.)

yachi

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2022, 05:57:34 PM »
Calling it earnings is a bit confusing because it's not a term that the IRS uses for individual investors, and it has a specific meaning for the companies VTI holds.
So let's get some terminology down:
Dividends - This is cash money a company pays you and other individual investors as an incentive to stay as owners.  VTI owns lots of companies, some pay dividends, some do not.  VTI in turn gives you the dividends.  In 2021 they paid $2.9303 in dividends per share.

Capital Gains - This is the difference between a company's price today and what it was when you purchased it.  Using VTI in 2021 as an example, 12/31/2020 it was selling for $194.64 per share, and 12/31/2021 it was selling for $241.44 per share.  If you purchased it for the 12/31/2020 price, you would have $46.80 in capital gains on 12/31/2021.  If you keep the shares, the capital gains are unrealized capital gains. If you sold the shares on 12/31/2021, the capital gains are realized capital gains.

Capital Gains Distributions - This is something you most often find associate with funds.  VTI hasn't paid out any Capital Gains Distributions since 2000, but some funds pay these out regularly.  When a fund changes what companies it owns, it needs to sell off the old companies, and these can generate capital gains.  The gains are sometimes distributed to you, and other individual investors as a cash payment.

OK, so let's get to taxes.

Dividends:  Something like 95% or more of the dividends VTI pays are qualified dividends.  These get taxed lower than your federal tax rate: 0%, 15% and 20%.  The other 5% of the dividends are ordinary dividends and get taxed at your normal federal tax rate.  So getting dividends is no worse of a tax hit than making money at your job (it's taxed the same or lower).  Because not everyone wants to spend their dividends, brokerages offer to reinvest the dividends into more VTI, but you'll still owe taxes on all the dividends.  Because of this, it's simpler for taxes to set your account to pay the dividends if you're looking to take money out of the account anyway.

Capital Gains:  As seattlecyclone explained, you only owe taxes on the gain, so a 15% tax rate on a 7% gain is no problem.  The easiest way to think about this is in a per share way.  The tax rates are equal to your federal income tax rate if you've owned the shares less than a year, but they can follow the 0%, 10%, 20% long term capital gain rates if held longer.  One technique is to wait until your income is low in retirement to sell your stocks.  The 0% long term tax rate reaches up to $40K for a single person of $80K for married filling jointly.

Unrealized capital gains are awesome, because part of it belongs to the federal government, but you get to keep that invested until you need it.  If you wait until your other sources of income are low: a lull in employment, early retirement, etc.  You may not have to pay the capital gains at all.

Realized capital gains mean you sold something.  It doesn't usually make sense to sell something, only to turn around and buy it again because you'd lose money to taxes.  That's why you see cautions against it.  It makes sense if you can lock in a real low capital gains.  It makes a lot of sense to fill our your 0% capital gains tax bracket.

The taxes follow the per-share gain, not the overall gain in the account.  So if you have 100 shares that have increased from $100 to $200, your account has gone from $10,000 to $20,000.  If you cash in on that gain, you could sell 50 shares for $200.  You'd be left with $5,000 in realized capital gains (from the shares you sold), and $5,000 in unrealized capital gains (included in the shares you didn't sell).  If your tax rate is 10%, you'd pay $500 in capital gains taxes for the shares you sold.  You don't have to pay anything on the the shares you keep until you sell them and your unrealized capital gains become realized capital gains.

Capital Gains Distributions: Your hand is forced on this one.  It looks like Vanguard is trying their best not to liquidate stocks in way that makes capital gains distributions.  I'm not actually sure what techniques they use to get rid of old companies and add new ones without generating these gains.  But I believe they could be less successful in the future either due to government or market action.  Your only technique here is if you know ahead of time of capital gains distributions, you could include them in your estimate of yearly gains to stay within lower brackets.

Cody75mx

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2022, 12:36:00 AM »
Thanks Seattlecyclone and Yachi. "The taxes follow the per-share gain, not the overall gain in the account". That's exactly the information I was looking for.

So the reason I am thinking about this is I am inspired by Billy and Akaisha Kaderli from retireearlylifestyle.com
I was thinking if I could get say 15,000 a year return from the stock market I could afford to work only half the year. basically I am interested in a semi- retired lifestyle. Receiving a return every year for the rest of my life just sounds very appealing.
 I read JL Collins book years ago but maybe it would be a good idea to review it again. Thanks for the responses.

dandarc

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2022, 10:16:24 AM »
If you can afford to cut back to half time I'd say go for it! I know that for me, looking at a 3% withdraw level of our portfolio did a lot to ease my mind last year when cutting back to 60% from full time - a little tight just on the lower income, but for us the "+ portfolio" looks downright easy.

In terms of sustainability, assuming you're invested in VTI or similar broad-market funds, what is your withdrawal rate - $15,000 is 4% of $375,000 - that's commonly considered a safe initial withdrawal rate when you start drawing - very likely that your portfolio lasts a long time if you start at a 4% withdrawal rate. If you have more invested then you're in even better shape, if less, then how much less and how long is your timeframe for this and how willing are you to go back to full time or make other adjustments if your funds do run lower than you're comfortable with? Not to say you should wait vs. not, just consider well your safety margin.

Cody75mx

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2022, 11:46:15 AM »
I am hoping I will have 375,000 lol. That might be optimistic. Is part of the reason a 4% withdrawal rate is considered safe is because over the long term the market returns ~7%. I have other investments growing (retirement). so the fact I could draw on this every year and still have it growing and have money left over is really appealing. I could work half the year then travel (cheaply) the other half potentially. 

seattlecyclone

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Re: VTI and Taxes
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2022, 11:52:30 AM »
Right, 7% may be the average but the actual amount of growth (or decline) can vary quite a bit from year to year. The order of these things matters: a down year hurts you a lot more toward the beginning of your drawdown than toward the end. The 4% figure comes from a study of past 30-year sequences of market returns, with a 4% withdrawal (almost) never depleting the portfolio over 30 years no matter which year you retired.