The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: jac941 on September 22, 2022, 03:45:33 PM
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Hi all. I’m wondering if anyone out there has some good advice / recommendations regarding how to reduce vet expenses. Our pet expenses over the past 3 years have been ASTRONOMICAL. So high that I’ve purposely not added it up because I don’t want to see the all in number.
We’ve had 2 senior dogs through this time period (one died in 2020 & the other is almost 14). Our old guy has had some significant issues, but overall is in very good shape for his age - eats well, loves to go on short walks, rotates through his many dog beds, etc. The vet expenses are almost never one huge bill (though we did have one event that cost just under $3,000). Instead they’re a series of high bills — $1,000 here, $1,500 there, $400 on medications for this or that, etc.
To get this more under control I’ve tried:
- Changing to a less expensive vet.
- Price shopping the medications to online pharmacies.
- Questioning the value of each recommended test to make sure that we can actually improve the quality of the life of the dog with what we learn vs just get more detail on a medical issue. Switching to the less expensive vet has actually helped a lot with getting more reasonable recommendations for treatment in addition to their prices just being lower for the same things.
- For more expensive recommended labs / procedures, I get second opinions and/or price shop from further afield vets.
So far we have not turned down or refused treatment that will improve quality of life. We do refuse treatment that would only extend life or where the risks outweigh the benefits. For example, the risk of death for going under anesthesia is high for our older dog due to a heart problem, so we have declined to do any more procedures that would require it.
On the one hand, we can afford it. It seems unfair to us to withhold anything that would improve our dog’s quality of life after he’s given us so many wonderful years and memories. On the other hand, holy cow it’s expensive. There must be a better way. I know pet insurance is an option, but we can afford to self-insure. Plus, just looking at premiums, I think even with the past few years of outrageous expenses, we’ve still come out way ahead of paying for an insurance premium over our dogs’ lifetimes.
I’m crowdsourcing from the community. Is there something else that you do to keep the costs down that I’m missing?
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I think you've covered it all. Pets are expensive, no way around it. I just had my cat's teeth cleaned for $650.00. And my other cat and dog need it soon too. Plus dog needs an ultrasound. It does all add up and very quickly. Insurance really doesn't pay, so I don't bother. As long as you're approaching it as What's Best for the Animal, as you seem to be doing, and questioning things, you're probably doing the best you can do.
One small thing to consider is filling prescriptions at human pharmacies, which may or may not give you a better price than online. You may also be able to get higher doses and split the pills. That's generally cheaper.
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I'm sure I'll be in the minority here but I can't imagine ever spending thousands of dollars on vet bills. Animals are animals, teeth cleaning?? That sounds like torture. 15 years ago a dog would feel extremely lucky to get let inside the house during a deep freeze.
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Hi all. I’m wondering if anyone out there has some good advice / recommendations regarding how to reduce vet expenses. Our pet expenses over the past 3 years have been ASTRONOMICAL. So high that I’ve purposely not added it up because I don’t want to see the all in number.
One of the easiest ways to keep costs down... is to add them up. You are avoiding adding up your pet expenses, which means you don't have an accurate idea of how bad your problem really is.
Just like any other aspect of your financial life, you'll only be able to make significant, sustainable changes once you know exactly what's coming in and going out.
Knowing exactly how much the vet bills have cost you will inform your decisions going forward. That doesn't make you an irresponsible or unloving pet owner. But knowing exactly how much you are spending on your pets will make you a more responsible steward of your family finances.
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My last pup was so expensive over the course of his 15 year life that I decided not to have pets in the future. And it wasn't just the expense - it's so upsetting to watch them go downhill as they age.
I'm now old enough that I'm concerned that a puppy might possibly outlive me....or cause me to fall and break a hip. And I enjoy traveling without having to worry about a pet.
My advice would be to not get another pet after this one passes away. That's the cheapest option (assuming you can live happily without a fur baby in your life).
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This is definitely something we've experienced with older dogs. It may come down to your philosophy regarding pet ownership. We paid a ridiculous sum of money on our dogs over the years. Sometimes our decisions were emotional. We saved money by doing preventive things like brush their teeth (highly recommend), but all the big expenses came at the end. We did tally the money we spent and it was outrageous. But we know we are not always emotionally equipped to view pet ownership logically. Our pets are emotional support for us, so I think of them as part of our healthcare (pets do have a line in our budget). Once our last dog passed we made the decision to get cats instead because they are less expensive. Pets are important to us, but that is a highly personal things. Regardless of what people tell you, ultimately this is your choice. I think you'll do right by your pets no matter what you do. Your dog is 14, unless they are a Chihuahua I'm sure you realize s/he is in their twilight years. If you are able to be logical, it might be helpful to come up with a number of what you want to spend the next time there is a vet visit. Sometimes we hang on to them for us, not them.
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I think you're doing everything you can with healthcare, picking things that improve quality of life and not doing things like (incredibly expensive!) scans that won't change the treatment plan.
I think there's a huge scale of pet feeding costs. I don't know how bad the supermarket food is, but my last dog lived til 17 years on it. The new dog is on the next level up that's sold in pet stores only but really how much better can it be and it's double the price. Then you've got the pre-made raw food diets and the ultra premium dry food that's double the price again. It's hard to know if you're doing preventative care by feeding premium food. Giving chewy things hopefully helps reduce dental costs.
Now you're in the twilight age, doggo could potentially cost a lot with a non-pragmatic vet, so it's worth keeping the quality of life top of mind. My old dog probably had a tumour somewhere but there was no point finding out because we wouldn't be treating it. Our great vet never even suggested it. We just let him go when we felt it was right. There's handy resources online for working out if it's time to let them go. One that I can't find right now said to think of the top 5 favourite things our dog liked to do, and if he couldn't do most of them anymore, it was time. It was really helpful in making the decision. Also a lack of appetite is a really clear sign that we missed because he still ate treats/the good stuff. No-one says they did it too soon, only that they wished they'd done it sooner!
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So, we have a VERY old cat - she's at least 20 yo and could be older, but we've had her 18 years and she was not a kitten when we got her.
She has finally had a cascade of health problems in the last year. We've taken her to the university vet clinic and we've had a serious discussion about quality of life versus quantity so that we're all on the same page. Prescription food? Yes. Surgery? No.
And honestly, for an ancient cat with kidney failure, one tooth, some dementia, and a generally poor attitude, she is chugging along pretty well.
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I can’t add much that hasn’t already been discussed, but I also share my life with a yorkie who cost $18,000 last year, and is chugging towards $10,000 this year. I kind feel like I havfta type something up!
So, original thoughts! The first is that preventative care probably helps keep old dog costs down. Brushing their teeth seems to be the new dog care thing, and it makes sense to me. Neither my dog, nor my wallet want a mouthful of rotting teeth in middle age. OP, I’m sure you’re covering this, but I’m just musing for the wider thread.
The second thing that hasn’t been mentioned is to read a few books about how dog brains work, and then use the knowledge while socializing your pup, and while interacting with your dog. A huge part of my rescue dog’s expensive life is dealing with his separation anxiety and reactivity towards other dogs. Prevent it if you can, and treat it if your dog comes preloaded with anxiety.
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Married to a veterinarian who is also FI...
First, vets don't make a lot of money. Eight years of education, usually $200,000+ in student loan debt, and most start capping out around $110,000 or so after five years of experience. The training involves the skill set of diagnosis, surgery, dentistry, and pharmacy but still earn 1/2 what human doctors do.
Pricing has increased, especially over the past five years. The 1980s trained veterinarians with low technology clinics and dated practices are aging out and retiring. They weren't using the level of diagnostic equipment that modern veterinarians have and it's been an adjustment.
What to do about costs?
Avoid the corporate and private equity backed chains. Sometimes it's difficult to know, they no longer advertise that they are VCA or Banfield, a bunch of private equity firms are buying clinics and not changing a thing and disguising ownership. These firms are pushing the market on pricing because they are earning both an ROI and paying veterinarians market salary. A locally owned practice is likely not to be pushing prices as much.
Understand the highest costs in pet ownership are beginning of life and end of life care. Decide early on what you will / won't do for your pet. We happily paid almost $10,000 in cancer treatment to extend our last dog's life by a year. That's not for everyone. Always discuss quality of life and costs as part of treatment.
We are not believers in pet insurance, it's only really useful in the first couple years of age for accidents.
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In addition, vets are in very short supply. The phone message at one local clinic says that they are experiencing a "severe workplace staffing shortage," so to be patient with appointment timelines. Even if you're willing to pay whatever the prices are, getting timely care is becoming an issue and likely to be more so in future.
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Pets require care. Care is expensive sometimes. Even "healthy" older animals are going to need more care. You can try to keep costs down, but there is only so much you can do.
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I wonder if pet insurance would start to make sense after the animal reaches say... 14?
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned: it is great that there are folks willing to take rescue dogs with significant behavioral and health issues and spend the money on them but that is not me. For a better shot (but no guarantee since this is a living being) at controlling behavior-related and health expenses, I would recommend buying (or getting an older dog that needs placement) from a reputable breeder. This will take time and money but well worth it, in my opinion.
Edited to add: the above is obviously more about large expenses for younger dogs than end of life care. For the latter, it is completely legitimate to have a total $ money you are willing to spend on care for a 14 year old dog. My sister's much younger dog recently had a serious health issue that took some time to diagnose and they came very close to hitting the total figure my sister was willing to spend. If they were going to exceed that, the dog would have been put down.
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Married to a veterinarian who is also FI...
We are not believers in pet insurance, it's only really useful in the first couple years of age for accidents.
Interesting and useful info! I've always wondered whether pet insurance would be worth it. My theory is that the insurance companies are in the business to make money, not to save me money, so in the end the odds are in their favor.
I can't think of any other ways to save money on vet costs, unfortunately! The most *practical* way would be to make care decisions based on logic instead of emotion, but that never happens, at least for me. In the moment, when my beloved pet is suffering or needs care (and I have the financial ability to pay for it), his care and comfort will always rule the day. End-of-life care cost us $2400 for the final 5 days last month. Ouch, but I don't regret it. We have a separate line in our budget for vet costs.
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I generally only take my animals to rural vets because their overhead is much lower so their recommendations aren't motivated as much by a need to cover their high monthly bills.
As a fee-for-service medical professional myself, I'm all too familiar with the phenomenon of tunnel vision towards lucrative treatments when the overhead is high.
Not me personally, I was a contractor, I didn't have overhead so I made money even if the owner lost money. I got in many conflicts with clinic owners because they insisted more expensive treatment was needed, while I was more focused on stabilization and maybe considering more complex treatments down the line once I know the patient is stable/responsible/capable enough to maintain them.
I realized that these professionals legitimately believed they were making the best recommendations for their patients, but it was clear that the subconscious force driving their beliefs was financial stress. The motivation for expansive testing was often driven by the need to financially justify paying 6 figures for the testing machine.
So I drive about 45 minutes away to an old, established rural vet clinic where the owner paid off their building in the 80s, but has young staff with up-to-date education, so I'm not depending on the outdated methods of someone who doesn't even know when an ultrasound would be optimal.
Mine only recommends complex tests and interventions when absolutely necessary because they require referral to a city vet to get done, or to bring in a specialist to do it.
Basically, they make no money off of advanced testing, but also don't lose anything, so they only recommend it when it is truly worth the expense to the client for the tangible benefit of the animal's treatment.
Do I miss out on the gold standard of treatment for my animals with this approach? Quite possibly. Sometimes.
However, being a medical professional myself and a complex medical patient, I'm also well educated in the reality that more testing and technology is not necessarily better. It's a surprisingly tough call when more testing/imaging is actually beneficial, and it's constantly up for debate in medicine.
This is why I specifically prefer to go to young, modern educated vets who work in clinics that *don't* have the most advanced technology, because they know when to recommend it, but have zero motivation outside of the animal's legitimate benefit.
I'm also rather on the conservative side of what I'm willing to put an animal through and have seen many vets cash in on a dying, suffering animals who should just arguably be peacefully put down, not tested to death...literally.
Now, I too have spent a lot on my animals over the past few years. I have no problem doing so. Animals need medical care and it's not free.
But as a medical professional, I made a lot of money while being pretty extreme on the conservative side of testing and treatment, so I don't fundamentally believe that more in every case is always the gold standard.
I also agree that prevention is worth a pound of cure. Things like dental care aren't new at all, people should always have been brushing their pets teeth on a near daily basis. Food quality, exercise, maintaining a healthy weight, are all critical for preventing lifestyle ailments in animals.
However, sometimes you get a lemon like my cat (who was from a highly reputable breeder btw) who just has health issues, and that costs me money.
Speaking as a lemon myself who also costs my family A LOT of money in treatments, this is just reality sometimes. However, because of all of the horrifically painful treatments I myself have been through and the stress they have caused, I err more on the side of being unwilling to put animals through painful shit if I don't have an enormous amount of faith in it totally solving a problem and dramatically increasing their quality of life.
I'm also remarkably conservative when it comes to my own care in terms of testing and treatments. I know that having a complex medical condition makes me a piggy bank to providers. And although they may be totally ethical practitioners, at the end of the day, only I can judge if what they have to offer is worth the cost, pain, hassle for me, specifically. I have to make the same judgement calls for my animals.
This is tough for folks who aren't medically trained.
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I have rescued dogs for 18 years. Some cost a lot and some very little. Because I am retired I now only have 2 instead of 4. They are Maltese and dentals are my biggest expenses. I now have pet insurance because my income was cut in half and I don’t want to put a dog to sleep because I can’t afford a treatment.
A friend of mine has collected more than she has paid in premiums. I chose healthy paws because that’s what she has. They don’t pay for dentals or routine maintenance care. I will never be without a dog but when these 2 are gone I intend to adopt the smaller oldest dog at the shelter and rinse and repeat until I die.
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned: it is great that there are folks willing to take rescue dogs with significant behavioral and health issues and spend the money on them but that is not me. For a better shot (but no guarantee since this is a living being) at controlling behavior-related and health expenses, I would recommend buying (or getting an older dog that needs placement) from a reputable breeder. This will take time and money but well worth it, in my opinion.
Edited to add: the above is obviously more about large expenses for younger dogs than end of life care. For the latter, it is completely legitimate to have a total $ money you are willing to spend on care for a 14 year old dog. My sister's much younger dog recently had a serious health issue that took some time to diagnose and they came very close to hitting the total figure my sister was willing to spend. If they were going to exceed that, the dog would have been put down.
I disagree with this. I have no issue with registered breeders (backyard breeders in it for the money earn my wrath), but there can be specific medical problems in certain breeds that just are. Look at English Bulldogs - they are a wreck of an animal and have been bred to look the way the do, which comes with a whole host of problems. Humans have bred dogs to be "designer" pets with little regard for their ultimate utility and health. And I have had a purebred, a Golden Retriever, who of course died of cancer, because 60some percent of them do.
The healthiest dogs, by and large, are mutts. They have enough genetic variation to make them healthier animals. My current dog is a Shepherd mix, with likely some Collie, Cattle Dog and maybe some type of Hound in her too. Of course there's no guarantee with her, but so far, so good - excellent temperament and still healthy at age 8.
Not to mention all the mixed dogs clogging rescues and shelters because people want a fancy dog from a breeder. The vast, vast majority of people do not need a dog specialized for a certain type of job and a rescue mutt will do nicely as a general family pet.
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It's a surprisingly tough call when more testing/imaging is actually beneficial, and it's constantly up for debate in medicine.
This is tough for folks who aren't medically trained.
Very interesting, and actually kinda reassuring to hear.
During the final 8 hours of our beloved cat's life, the vet at the emergency clinic suggested that they keep him for the next 24-48 hours to stabilize him (IV fluids, enema, antibiotics, bone marrow biopsy, and probably some other stuff I don't remember) and then re-evaluate. Cost estimate: $3500. Of course we were in an agony of indecision, grief, and tears, and hope is a powerful motivator. But I asked her if those 48 hours would result in concrete answers as to whether the chemo treatments were working -- he had GI lymphoma, which is very aggressive, and it had relapsed. She said "it might. Hopefully." My thought, despite our grief, was "$3500 and the result is a *maybe*?!?" I realize the vet could not give us guarantees, but she also didn't really suggest euthanasia as an option. And yeah, her job is to give us options and of course it's not their decision to euthanize. But he was 16-17 yrs old, and even if the chemo did work, we'd have weeks left, maybe a month or two if we were very lucky. More importantly, his last 48-ish hours had not been good for him. A bone marrow biopsy sounds painful, and he was already miserable in the clinic. Why put him through another 2 days for a "maybe"? So we said goodbye, even though the vet was suggesting further treatment. My heart still holds a tiny bit of resentment toward her, though I know logically it's probably just a reflection of my grief and guilt.
Anyway, that was a long story to say that I didn't realize there were debates going on in medical circles about whether more testing/imaging is beneficial to the patient. I had just assumed my indecision was emotional.
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Animals are animals, teeth cleaning?? That sounds like torture.
Well, normally they are put under for it, and especially for small dogs it can extend their lives and the quality of their lives. My 12 year old Shih Tzu gets one dental cleaning per year.
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Married to a veterinarian who is also FI...
We are not believers in pet insurance, it's only really useful in the first couple years of age for accidents.
Interesting and useful info! I've always wondered whether pet insurance would be worth it. My theory is that the insurance companies are in the business to make money, not to save me money, so in the end the odds are in their favor.
I can't think of any other ways to save money on vet costs, unfortunately! The most *practical* way would be to make care decisions based on logic instead of emotion, but that never happens, at least for me. In the moment, when my beloved pet is suffering or needs care (and I have the financial ability to pay for it), his care and comfort will always rule the day. End-of-life care cost us $2400 for the final 5 days last month. Ouch, but I don't regret it. We have a separate line in our budget for vet costs.
When I was trying to decide on pet insurance, I got a bunch of different quotes and looked at what they covered. In the end, I decided to go ahead and insure the 5 month-old Dane puppy, but not the 3 year-old Lab, until I was able to build up an emergency fund specifically for them.
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned: it is great that there are folks willing to take rescue dogs with significant behavioral and health issues and spend the money on them but that is not me. For a better shot (but no guarantee since this is a living being) at controlling behavior-related and health expenses, I would recommend buying (or getting an older dog that needs placement) from a reputable breeder. This will take time and money but well worth it, in my opinion.
Edited to add: the above is obviously more about large expenses for younger dogs than end of life care. For the latter, it is completely legitimate to have a total $ money you are willing to spend on care for a 14 year old dog. My sister's much younger dog recently had a serious health issue that took some time to diagnose and they came very close to hitting the total figure my sister was willing to spend. If they were going to exceed that, the dog would have been put down.
I disagree with this. I have no issue with registered breeders (backyard breeders in it for the money earn my wrath), but there can be specific medical problems in certain breeds that just are. Look at English Bulldogs - they are a wreck of an animal and have been bred to look the way the do, which comes with a whole host of problems. Humans have bred dogs to be "designer" pets with little regard for their ultimate utility and health. And I have had a purebred, a Golden Retriever, who of course died of cancer, because 60some percent of them do.
The healthiest dogs, by and large, are mutts. They have enough genetic variation to make them healthier animals. My current dog is a Shepherd mix, with likely some Collie, Cattle Dog and maybe some type of Hound in her too. Of course there's no guarantee with her, but so far, so good - excellent temperament and still healthy at age 8.
Not to mention all the mixed dogs clogging rescues and shelters because people want a fancy dog from a breeder. The vast, vast majority of people do not need a dog specialized for a certain type of job and a rescue mutt will do nicely as a general family pet.
Couldn't agree more with Sunny. There are a ton of examples of purebred dogs whose problems were deliberately bred into them. Pugs with breathing problems because of their rolled/squashed noses. Corgis, dachshunds, and bassets with ridiculously long backs and resulting back problems. German Shepherds with back and hind end problems because they were bred with that weird crouching look. And then there are the breeders who want certain coat colors and eye colors (Aussies, collies, etc, I'm looking at you) but those traits are recessive and when deliberately bred together, you get extra problems. Oh, and let's not forget hip dysplasia! Super common, and I haven't seen selective breeding that has helped that particular problem.
Okay, I'll get back off my soap box!
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I try to keep what is best for the animal in mind, knowing I have the funds. That's not to say the most expensive option is the best, though. I generally won't agree to a test unless the result will guide treatment (vs. simply giving us more info). Sounds like you've thought through all the same things I do.
Like Malcat, our primary vet office is a self-run clinic without any bells or whistles. If we need major diagnostics or extensive treatment, we get referred out to a bigger animal hospital. Our vet only suggested it once in the life of our last cat. I do think the specific office you choose helps.
Knock on wood, our current cat is quite healthy and has minimal vet costs. Just the annual check up and vaccinations. (Annual rabies shots are legally required where I live.) Her food costs us more than medical expenses, at least for now. She gets a mid-tier wet food in the hopes that it will help prevent lifestyle diseases down the road.
I do worry about dental costs, though. Our last cat always had bad teeth and did not allow us to get a brush anywhere near her mouth. Our current cat's breath smells so bad, but she won't let us brush her teeth either. She's not mean about it like the last cat, though. In fact, she's so excited to taste the toothpaste she just gnaws on the brush head and we can't do meaningful brushing motions on the surface of her teeth.
Anyone have any tips on training them to let you brush their teeth? (Though even that needs to be weighed with quality of life. In some cases, it may be worth paying to do the occasional dental rather than making your cat miserable with a daily brushing battle.)
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Start brushing teeth and coat and clipping nails when they're babies. They will get used to the routine and be much more compliant than if you start later in life.
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I try to keep what is best for the animal in mind, knowing I have the funds. That's not to say the most expensive option is the best, though. I generally won't agree to a test unless the result will guide treatment (vs. simply giving us more info). Sounds like you've thought through all the same things I do.
Like Malcat, our primary vet office is a self-run clinic without any bells or whistles. If we need major diagnostics or extensive treatment, we get referred out to a bigger animal hospital. Our vet only suggested it once in the life of our last cat. I do think the specific office you choose helps.
Knock on wood, our current cat is quite healthy and has minimal vet costs. Just the annual check up and vaccinations. (Annual rabies shots are legally required where I live.) Her food costs us more than medical expenses, at least for now. She gets a mid-tier wet food in the hopes that it will help prevent lifestyle diseases down the road.
I do worry about dental costs, though. Our last cat always had bad teeth and did not allow us to get a brush anywhere near her mouth. Our current cat's breath smells so bad, but she won't let us brush her teeth either. She's not mean about it like the last cat, though. In fact, she's so excited to taste the toothpaste she just gnaws on the brush head and we can't do meaningful brushing motions on the surface of her teeth.
Anyone have any tips on training them to let you brush their teeth? (Though even that needs to be weighed with quality of life. In some cases, it may be worth paying to do the occasional dental rather than making your cat miserable with a daily brushing battle.)
I've personally never had a problem brushing any cat's teeth, but I have a cat bag, so my tip would be to use a cat bag.
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It's a surprisingly tough call when more testing/imaging is actually beneficial, and it's constantly up for debate in medicine.
This is tough for folks who aren't medically trained.
Very interesting, and actually kinda reassuring to hear.
During the final 8 hours of our beloved cat's life, the vet at the emergency clinic suggested that they keep him for the next 24-48 hours to stabilize him (IV fluids, enema, antibiotics, bone marrow biopsy, and probably some other stuff I don't remember) and then re-evaluate. Cost estimate: $3500. Of course we were in an agony of indecision, grief, and tears, and hope is a powerful motivator. But I asked her if those 48 hours would result in concrete answers as to whether the chemo treatments were working -- he had GI lymphoma, which is very aggressive, and it had relapsed. She said "it might. Hopefully." My thought, despite our grief, was "$3500 and the result is a *maybe*?!?" I realize the vet could not give us guarantees, but she also didn't really suggest euthanasia as an option. And yeah, her job is to give us options and of course it's not their decision to euthanize. But he was 16-17 yrs old, and even if the chemo did work, we'd have weeks left, maybe a month or two if we were very lucky. More importantly, his last 48-ish hours had not been good for him. A bone marrow biopsy sounds painful, and he was already miserable in the clinic. Why put him through another 2 days for a "maybe"? So we said goodbye, even though the vet was suggesting further treatment. My heart still holds a tiny bit of resentment toward her, though I know logically it's probably just a reflection of my grief and guilt.
Anyway, that was a long story to say that I didn't realize there were debates going on in medical circles about whether more testing/imaging is beneficial to the patient. I had just assumed my indecision was emotional.
Oh indeed.
Here, let me give you a human example.
I get a certain treatment for my spine. I initially went to the US because there was only one clinic I could get in to during the pandemic. They did thousands of dollars in tests to justify the treatment.
Two years later I got in to see an MD in Canada who was trained by the exact same expert as the clinic in the US. He did NONE of the initial tests and didn't even bother looking at the ones that the US doctor did, because they don't change the indication or the outcome of treatment. In fact, the imaging the US doctor did is banned in Canada because it isn't useful or worth the risk of the exposure and the fear created by incidental findings.
I personally have been sales pitched just about every single modern diagnostic imaging tool in existence, and have never once felt there was enough benefit to justify their frequent use for my particular area of expertise, which tends to very commonly use expensive imaging as part of their profit driver AND as a major treatment justification tool. Advanced imaging is useful for other areas, just not mine.
It's A LOT easier to get someone to spend thousands of dollars on treatment when you can find something on an image and say "see! this is what's wrong." Except the relationship of findings on imaging to actual diagnostic fact are nowhere near as one-to-one as people are led to believe.
Did my US doctor find stuff on imaging? Yep
Does it explain my symptoms? According to him, it does, and he's very convincing
Does it have any impact on my recommended treatment? No, he was going to recommend the same treatment regardless of what the tests show, they're just a way for him to make more money and make his recommendation more compelling at the same time
Does he 100% believe that his testing is necessary and beneficial? Oh you bet, with a fervour that borders on religious conviction
Another example is that even regular mammograms are hotly debated as to whether they help more or harm more.
Every single test we order has to be analyzed in terms of the risks and benefits. More testing is not fundamentally better, but there is little agreement between professionals as to where the line is, especially when there are professionals whose beliefs are heavily influenced by their own self interest.
As for your specific example, my vet always offers euthanasia when a very old animal presents with extreme pain. The probability of the animal surviving in great shape should be assessed before subjecting a likely dying animal to more pain and indignity away from their family.
I will personally never again let a vet take an animal away from me for a few days of observation and testing if there's a good chance the animal will die. I wouldn't want that for myself, a million times over I would rather the risk of dying a bit prematurely than spending my last days alone, scared, not knowing what's happening, and being tortured by scary doctors who I can't communicate with who are motivated by money to keep torturing me.
People reading my journal know that my little dog had a health crisis last year and I wouldn't let the vet take him overnight, his symptoms were too vague to have a clear indication of what was happening. He needed fluids, so I asked for fluids and syringes to do sub-Q injections myself. If he was dying, he was going to die at home, curled up with me while we waited for test results, not alone in a cage, abandoned by his family to people who hurt him. It turned out he had pancreatitis, which could only be managed by watchful waiting and fluids anyway.
Will my approach one day result in the death of an animal who *maybe* could be saved by timely, heroic, advanced medical intervention? Yep, very possible. But it's guaranteed to prevent a lot of my critters from spending their last, painful days feeling terrified and abandoned.
If I thought spending 5-10K had ever made the death of one of my animals better, I would think differently. But I'm someone who has dealt with A LOT of animal death because I've adopted so many very old and sick rescue dogs, so I've had an animal die every year or so for a very long time. After the 5th or 6th time I went through the expensive vet hospital horror show, I stopped being willing to play along.
I took my 17 year old long-spine/short legs dog to a vet hospital a few years ago only because he woke up screaming at 2am after jumping off the bed and my vet wasn't open and I needed pain killers for him immediately. I ended up in a screaming fight with the vet who tried to tell me that he should be kept for a few days for a cardiology consult for the murmur he had had his whole life, and a dental consult for the canine that had been broken for a decade. My dog could barely walk and they were offering literally no treatment for what was obviously a spinal problem because it wasn't showing up on the xray, and there really isn't a treatment for a long dog whose spine is fucked.
They didn't want to keep him because of the pain that was making him scream. They were using his pain as an opportunity to keep him and guilt me into a bunch of treatment that wouldn't even help his pain. But they kept saying that since the xray didn't show anything, they couldn't rule out that his other issues weren't the source of the problem and he "really did deserve thorough testing because he's obviously such a good dog."
When I insisted he couldn't live with his current level of pain, they offered NSAIDs. Fucking NSAIDs!
I have a spinal injury, NSAIDs aren't going to cut it.
When I heard him screaming in the back room as they tried to get a urine sample from him while lying him on his injured spine, and were telling me that NSAIDs would manage him just fine, that's when I broached the subject of euthanasia and they aggressively shamed me. I snapped and went into full on fucking beast mode, which I've been told is abjectly terrifying.
By that point, my vet's office was open and his regular vet agreed it was likely his spine, that even if surgery was an option, with his age and heart condition, it wouldn't even be worth trying. The only meds strong enough to make him comfortable were strong opioids, so that's what we dosed him with until his vet could make time to put him down at the end of the day. He spent the rest of his last day high as a kite, surrounded by everyone who loved him, and he got a cheeseburger, which is our family tradition.
My vet even says "I think we need to consider a cheeseburger as a reasonable treatment" because we've been through this so many times.
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Start brushing teeth and coat and clipping nails when they're babies. They will get used to the routine and be much more compliant than if you start later in life.
Unfortunately, both of my cats came to me as adult rescues so I've never had the luxury of training them young!
A cat bag probably would have been helpful for my last cat. For this cat, I don't know how much it would change things. She is honestly just excited to get the toothbrush in her mouth so she can aggressively chew on it and lick the toothpaste off.
Perhaps I just need to be more persistent and regular with it. When I give it a try and only brush maybe 2% of her tooth surface, I get pretty discouraged. But if I keep trying every day maybe I can get that percentage up.
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Start brushing teeth and coat and clipping nails when they're babies. They will get used to the routine and be much more compliant than if you start later in life.
Unfortunately, both of my cats came to me as adult rescues so I've never had the luxury of training them young!
A cat bag probably would have been helpful for my last cat. For this cat, I don't know how much it would change things. She is honestly excited to get the toothbrush in her mouth so she can aggressively chew on it and lick the toothpaste off.
Perhaps I just need to be more persistent and regular with it. When I give it a try and only brush maybe 2% of her tooth surface, I get pretty discouraged. But if I keep trying every day maybe I can get that percentage up.
That's fine, you're getting the brush into her mouth.
Also brace the back of her head against you or a sofa or something, if she can't pull her head back, she can't control the brush as well. I wrap my aggressive cat in a cat bag, and then rest his head in my left armpit area into a mini headlock, and brush with my right hand.
Cats always have an instinct to go backwards, if you stop their ability to do so, they will often be more cooperative. But yeah, it generally takes a lot of persistence and patience.
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I took my 17 year old long-spine/short legs dog to a vet hospital a few years ago only because he woke up screaming at 2am after jumping off the bed and my vet wasn't open and I needed pain killers for him immediately. I ended up in a screaming fight with the vet who tried to tell me that he should be kept for a few days for a cardiology consult for the murmur he had had his whole life, and a dental consult for the canine that had been broken for a decade. My dog could barely walk and they were offering literally no treatment for what was obviously a spinal problem because it wasn't showing up on the xray, and there really isn't a treatment for a long dog whose spine is fucked.
They didn't want to keep him because of the pain that was making him scream. They were using his pain as an opportunity to keep him and guilt me into a bunch of treatment that wouldn't even help his pain. But they kept saying that since the xray didn't show anything, they couldn't rule out that his other issues weren't the source of the problem and he "really did deserve thorough testing because he's obviously such a good dog."
When I insisted he couldn't live with his current level of pain, they offered NSAIDs. Fucking NSAIDs!
I have a spinal injury, NSAIDs aren't going to cut it.
When I heard him screaming in the back room as they tried to get a urine sample from him while lying him on his injured spine, and were telling me that NSAIDs would manage him just fine, that's when I broached the subject of euthanasia and they aggressively shamed me. I snapped and went into full on fucking beast mode, which I've been told is abjectly terrifying.
By that point, my vet's office was open and his regular vet agreed it was likely his spine, that even if surgery was an option, with his age and heart condition, it wouldn't even be worth trying. The only meds strong enough to make him comfortable were strong opioids, so that's what we dosed him with until his vet could make time to put him down at the end of the day. He spent the rest of his last day high as a kite, surrounded by everyone who loved him, and he got a cheeseburger, which is our family tradition.
My vet even says "I think we need to consider a cheeseburger as a reasonable treatment" because we've been through this so many times.
Why does it seem like everything escalates outside of business hours? My last cat died of mammary cancer and was stable and comfortable for a long time, even when we knew it had metastasized and the end was inevitably near. But then one evening her breathing rate skyrocketed, and it was clear that it was time. It was around 10 PM, so our only choice was the ER vet, which whisked her back to an oxygen chamber alone.
They suggested some further testing, but I'm grateful they didn't push it when we gave her history and said we knew it was time. We weren't there to stabilize her, we were there because it would have been cruel to wait for the morning when our regular vet would be open to euthanize her.
Honestly I was kind of shocked that they didn't charge anything for the ER visit or the time in the oxygen chamber. They just charged $50 or so for the euthanasia drugs. I really appreciated that.
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And thanks for the tip about bracing the back of her head, I'll give that a shot!
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Start brushing teeth and coat and clipping nails when they're babies. They will get used to the routine and be much more compliant than if you start later in life.
Yes, but not necessarily. My 14 year old cat just went to the vet today to be knocked out, brushed and bathed because she's not doing it herself and she won't let me do it. I don't regularly bathe my cats, but I do brush them, since kittenhood. Thus why we also did the expensive bloodwork which checks everything, because while she's not a fan of getting brushed, trying to bite me is extreme and I'm quite concerned there's something else going on. Knocked out because if she was trying to bite me, then anyone else is going to get shredded.
$600 later, she's clean and hopefully more comfortable. And with any luck, she'll either start caring for herself or at least allow me to assist.
Edit: based on how much fur the groomer got off her and her behavior now, Arwen was in pain from the sheer amount of dead fur. This small, short haired cat lost just over half a pound of fur today. She's now purring and still kinda out of it, but the fact that she's obviously more comfortable means the money was worth it. She now officially falls into the geriatric category for me, which means quality of life is the most important factor.
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The stories from @RainyDay and @Malcat about tests being offered for pets that needed euthanasia make me so sad and mad!
Males me thankful for my vet. It's in the city in a wealthy area, and while all around the vets are suggesting expensive tests, they keep it to what's needed. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I had pet insurance but I don't think so. It was even just a locum there who said to me a few months before my last dog was pts "I think we are at end of life care now". I had no idea, he was just trucking on as usual but she suspected he had something that would end him I think. I'm so grateful she said that because it put the seed in my mind and meant things didn't get dragged out later.
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@zygote, I just had my cat's teeth cleaned and the vet gave me an infant toothbrush. It's rubber with soft rubber bristles and goes over your finger. If your cat now associates a hard brush with a head on it with the yummy toothpaste, you could try the infant brush instead without toothpaste at first, then offer the cat a bit on your finger once you're done. Slowly move up when you put the paste on until it's back at the beginning of the process.
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The stories from @RainyDay and @Malcat about tests being offered for pets that needed euthanasia make me so sad and mad!
Males me thankful for my vet. It's in the city in a wealthy area, and while all around the vets are suggesting expensive tests, they keep it to what's needed. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I had pet insurance but I don't think so. It was even just a locum there who said to me a few months before my last dog was pts "I think we are at end of life care now". I had no idea, he was just trucking on as usual but she suspected he had something that would end him I think. I'm so grateful she said that because it put the seed in my mind and meant things didn't get dragged out later.
I just want to share the other side of this...
My wife always wanted to be a veterinarian. It was life's goal. Graduated near the top of her class in high school, undergraduate, and was valedictorian of her Veterinary class. Graduation year 2007.
We moved to Atlanta, ground zero of the housing bust. Not because prices declined the worse there, but because such a large percentage of the population was employed related to new home construction or in the manufacturing of building supplies. The majority of her career was spent wrestling with economic euthanasia, having to put down pets with fixable ailments because the owners could not pay. It was the opposite of her dreams, being the doctor of death for animals that could be helped....but there was no money. She accumulated six figures of debt to earn $45,000 to $70,000 while working for struggling business owners. Veterinarians were near the top of the list for suicide, with a lot of this driven by the difference between expectations and reality.
We were fortunate - I earned great money and she was incredible on the expense side and FI was our way out. We were CoastFI and she scaled back to relief work in 2014 then stopped all together shortly thereafter. Most veterinarians don't get that escape ramp.
https://www.nomv.org/about/mission/
Thanks for listening to the rant, I just struggled with all of the "greedy veterinarian" talk. I can promise you that not a single veterinarian goes into this "for the money". They may change after getting into the profession and/or get jaded over time, but if you are a college student and have any focus whatsoever on making money, veterinary medicine will not be your choice.
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The stories from @RainyDay and @Malcat about tests being offered for pets that needed euthanasia make me so sad and mad!
Males me thankful for my vet. It's in the city in a wealthy area, and while all around the vets are suggesting expensive tests, they keep it to what's needed. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I had pet insurance but I don't think so. It was even just a locum there who said to me a few months before my last dog was pts "I think we are at end of life care now". I had no idea, he was just trucking on as usual but she suspected he had something that would end him I think. I'm so grateful she said that because it put the seed in my mind and meant things didn't get dragged out later.
I just want to share the other side of this...
My wife always wanted to be a veterinarian. It was life's goal. Graduated near the top of her class in high school, undergraduate, and was valedictorian of her Veterinary class. Graduation year 2007.
We moved to Atlanta, ground zero of the housing bust. Not because prices declined the worse there, but because such a large percentage of the population was employed related to new home construction or in the manufacturing of building supplies. The majority of her career was spent wrestling with economic euthanasia, having to put down pets with fixable ailments because the owners could not pay. It was the opposite of her dreams, being the doctor of death for animals that could be helped....but there was no money. She accumulated six figures of debt to earn $45,000 to $70,000 while working for struggling business owners. Veterinarians were near the top of the list for suicide, with a lot of this driven by the difference between expectations and reality.
We were fortunate - I earned great money and she was incredible on the expense side and FI was our way out. We were CoastFI and she scaled back to relief work in 2014 then stopped all together shortly thereafter. Most veterinarians don't get that escape ramp.
https://www.nomv.org/about/mission/
Thanks for listening to the rant, I just struggled with all of the "greedy veterinarian" talk. I can promise you that not a single veterinarian goes into this "for the money". They may change after getting into the profession and/or get jaded over time, but if you are a college student and have any focus whatsoever on making money, veterinary medicine will not be your choice.
I never called the vets greedy. They weren't considering what was best for the dog (or cat), that's my issue.
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The stories from @RainyDay and @Malcat about tests being offered for pets that needed euthanasia make me so sad and mad!
Males me thankful for my vet. It's in the city in a wealthy area, and while all around the vets are suggesting expensive tests, they keep it to what's needed. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I had pet insurance but I don't think so. It was even just a locum there who said to me a few months before my last dog was pts "I think we are at end of life care now". I had no idea, he was just trucking on as usual but she suspected he had something that would end him I think. I'm so grateful she said that because it put the seed in my mind and meant things didn't get dragged out later.
Same with my vet. I lost my boy in February. They were straight with me that they *could* do chemo and buy him maybe 4-6 more months. But that they wouldn't necessarily be good months and that the humane thing would be to let him go.
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Thanks for listening to the rant, I just struggled with all of the "greedy veterinarian" talk. I can promise you that not a single veterinarian goes into this "for the money". They may change after getting into the profession and/or get jaded over time, but if you are a college student and have any focus whatsoever on making money, veterinary medicine will not be your choice.
I didn't mean to imply that the ER vet was greedy or motivated by money. I'm sure that's not the case, and that she was sincerely trying to give us options. And, of course, she did not live with our pet and see his rapid decline. Everyone wants a miracle cure and I suspect she was trying to give us one.
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The stories from @RainyDay and @Malcat about tests being offered for pets that needed euthanasia make me so sad and mad!
Males me thankful for my vet. It's in the city in a wealthy area, and while all around the vets are suggesting expensive tests, they keep it to what's needed. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I had pet insurance but I don't think so. It was even just a locum there who said to me a few months before my last dog was pts "I think we are at end of life care now". I had no idea, he was just trucking on as usual but she suspected he had something that would end him I think. I'm so grateful she said that because it put the seed in my mind and meant things didn't get dragged out later.
I just want to share the other side of this...
My wife always wanted to be a veterinarian. It was life's goal. Graduated near the top of her class in high school, undergraduate, and was valedictorian of her Veterinary class. Graduation year 2007.
We moved to Atlanta, ground zero of the housing bust. Not because prices declined the worse there, but because such a large percentage of the population was employed related to new home construction or in the manufacturing of building supplies. The majority of her career was spent wrestling with economic euthanasia, having to put down pets with fixable ailments because the owners could not pay. It was the opposite of her dreams, being the doctor of death for animals that could be helped....but there was no money. She accumulated six figures of debt to earn $45,000 to $70,000 while working for struggling business owners. Veterinarians were near the top of the list for suicide, with a lot of this driven by the difference between expectations and reality.
We were fortunate - I earned great money and she was incredible on the expense side and FI was our way out. We were CoastFI and she scaled back to relief work in 2014 then stopped all together shortly thereafter. Most veterinarians don't get that escape ramp.
https://www.nomv.org/about/mission/
Thanks for listening to the rant, I just struggled with all of the "greedy veterinarian" talk. I can promise you that not a single veterinarian goes into this "for the money". They may change after getting into the profession and/or get jaded over time, but if you are a college student and have any focus whatsoever on making money, veterinary medicine will not be your choice.
To be VERY clear, in my experience of having worked in high overhead clinics and having been a business consultant in the medical world, it's exactly when medical professionals *aren't* making enough money that they become the most greedy.
When clinics owners are struggling to pay their bills, that's when suddenly they start believing that every case needs an ultrasound so that they can pay off the giant loan on the machine.
I've seen this among doctors, dentists, chiros, vets, you name it. Desperately needing more money to pay your overhead makes just about any business owner more tunnel visioned towards the bottom line.
Someone who needs to push unnecessary treatment to survive is going to be *more* motivated to do so, not less. Are there exceptions, absolutely, but the general fact that vets struggle doesn't make our very real experiences with greed invalid.
FTR, I'm also a medical professional who is always accused of being greedy, so I'm very well aware of the difference between legitimate services being expensive and a money-motivated professional pushing treatment to maximize the value of their time.
People who own animals should be prepared to spend on them. Period. But that doesn't mean they should think uncritically about what's being recommended.
That said, when it comes to most animals, it's the owners who are the fucking assholes and failing to give them decent care and then failing to pay for the professional care that they need. Never in a million years would I say that greedy vets are more of a.problem than cheap, neglectful pet owners.
Never, no, nope. Pet owners are the fucking worst, and the reason I didn't consider vet when I was choosing what kind of medical training I wanted. I knew I would end up in jail for assault if I did.
It's the same way I can't treat kids anymore. Parents make me insane.
But the fact that pet owners are awful doesn't eliminate the fact that a lot of vets under financial pressure are more inclined to over treat.
That's why my advice is to find vets in situations that have less financial pressure. I don't question ANYTHING my vet recommends, I just do it and pay for it.
My advice isn't to refuse what your vet recommends, my advice is to shop around until you find a vet that you feel comfortable trusting. Because there are plenty of great vets out there.
And in my experience as a fellow medical professional in a very similar procedural career is that those good vets are THE FIRST ones to complain about the unethical, bottom-line motivated ones.
The fact that it's not all vets doesn't stop it from being a real problem.
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I try to keep what is best for the animal in mind, knowing I have the funds. That's not to say the most expensive option is the best, though. I generally won't agree to a test unless the result will guide treatment (vs. simply giving us more info). Sounds like you've thought through all the same things I do.
Like Malcat, our primary vet office is a self-run clinic without any bells or whistles. If we need major diagnostics or extensive treatment, we get referred out to a bigger animal hospital. Our vet only suggested it once in the life of our last cat. I do think the specific office you choose helps.
Knock on wood, our current cat is quite healthy and has minimal vet costs. Just the annual check up and vaccinations. (Annual rabies shots are legally required where I live.) Her food costs us more than medical expenses, at least for now. She gets a mid-tier wet food in the hopes that it will help prevent lifestyle diseases down the road.
I do worry about dental costs, though. Our last cat always had bad teeth and did not allow us to get a brush anywhere near her mouth. Our current cat's breath smells so bad, but she won't let us brush her teeth either. She's not mean about it like the last cat, though. In fact, she's so excited to taste the toothpaste she just gnaws on the brush head and we can't do meaningful brushing motions on the surface of her teeth.
Anyone have any tips on training them to let you brush their teeth? (Though even that needs to be weighed with quality of life. In some cases, it may be worth paying to do the occasional dental rather than making your cat miserable with a daily brushing battle.)
I just wanted to say that we also add tooth enzyme to their water (you can buy at a pet store search for enzymatic oral care). I believe it is the same stuff in the toothpaste (I don't know how effective it). Our dogs were great, but our cats are iffy with toothbrushing still we try knowing how important it is.
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2 years ago the price of a dental on a 5lb dog went from 360 to 600 if they didn’t pull teeth. People from California have been moving into Nevada and I guess the vets figured that they could raise the prices. Because of this increase because my bill is usually 1k per dog instead of getting them yearly I had to switch to every 18 months. In June I had one of my dogs at the vet for a ear infection and even though it had only been 6 months since her last dental the vet suggested another one. I just gave her a look like WTF and said no. I have tried all the supplements to put in water, etc. Maltese just have bad teeth.
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2 years ago the price of a dental on a 5lb dog went from 360 to 600 if they didn’t pull teeth. People from California have been moving into Nevada and I guess the vets figured that they could raise the prices. Because of this increase because my bill is usually 1k per dog instead of getting them yearly I had to switch to every 18 months. In June I had one of my dogs at the vet for a ear infection and even though it had only been 6 months since her last dental the vet suggested another one. I just gave her a look like WTF and said no. I have tried all the supplements to put in water, etc. Maltese just have bad teeth.
It's a little dog thing.
My poodle has very few teeth left and I've brushed them since he was a puppy.
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I totally agree Malcat. I had one Maltese with no teeth by age 7. The one big dog I owned had beautiful teeth with no dentals when he died at 13.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
I've spent thousands on dental cleanings, acute emergencies, such as my dog's recent pancreatitis attack, and a non-life-threatening but very unpleasant health issue for one of my cats.
If the cat were suffering, I would put him down. Instead he's very happy, but he has some digestive issues that result in him flying around the house while he poops, often in the middle of the night.
This is something I am NOT willing to put him down for, and I am VERY willing to spend a few thousand here and there to try and resolve.
We just spent a few thousand on having his anal sacs removed because that was likely to solve the problem...it didn't. So now we have him on daily gabapentin, which somehow seems to help. We discovered this by accident by using it for travel. It costs about $100/mo.
All in all, basic dental care, emergency care, and manageable, non life threatening, ongoing care and prescriptions have added up to several thousand.
I am very conservative about the procedures I will put an animal through, but I make that decision in terms of suffering of the animal, not cost.
If the treatment is minimally invasive/easy to recover from, and likely to dramatically improve the animal's quality of life, I'm going to pay for it. Period.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
Most pets need medication at a certain age. If everyone felt like you there wouldn’t be too many older pets. Part of being a responsible pet owner is to provide health care. If you aren’t willing to spend money on a pet then you shouldn’t own one.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
Most pets need medication at a certain age. If everyone felt like you there wouldn’t be too many older pets. Part of being a responsible pet owner is to provide health care. If you aren’t willing to spend money on a pet then you shouldn’t own one.
We do take good care of our pet. We provide him with comfort, good quality food, quality medicine and healthcare. But we are not willing to spend thousands of dollars a year on his needs. This is a difficult but conscious choice we make not to inflate our lifestyle.
Our threshold on money for his care is few hundred bucks a year. It could be thousands and tens of thousands, I am sure most people have a threshold too. I think OP found he probably reached his/her threshold as well.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
Elrond has hyperthyroidism. This is quite common in older cats. He takes daily medication to manage this, which is $30 a month or so, and needs bloodwork to check his levels every 6 months. Outside of that, he's a healthy, happy kitty who just wants to cuddle and sleep in the grass. If this falls under your criteria of time to put the cat down, then I disagree quite vehemently with you.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
Elrond has hyperthyroidism. This is quite common in older cats. He takes daily medication to manage this, which is $30 a month or so, and needs bloodwork to check his levels every 6 months. Outside of that, he's a healthy, happy kitty who just wants to cuddle and sleep in the grass. If this falls under your criteria of time to put the cat down, then I disagree quite vehemently with you.
To be more specific I will rephrase my statement as
"But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out expensive medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest."
Keeping in mind that forum is full of relatively rich people. I might pay $30/month too if it keeps my dog comfortable for a year or two. It is not that much money to me, but it is lot of money for most people in the world. It can mean not having enough to put food on table at end of the month.
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You are in the Midwest where vet care is much cheaper. When I was raising my kids we didn’t have pets because of the expenses. My priority was my children. Now I have dogs and they are my priority. I know many seniors that after their pets died they didn’t get another because of the cost. Sadly I had to downsize by natural attrition from 4 rescue dogs to 2 because of the cost. I may eventually only have one. It’s sad because so many need homes.
I would have much more discretionary money if I didn’t have them. Even the heart guard that all dogs that leave the house need is 188/year for the 2 of them. I know people that don’t get their small dogs dentals and let them have rotten teeth. That’s cruel. You can’t get any type of surgery here for under 1k. Most cost 4-6k which is why I carry insurance with a 500 deductible and 70% reimbursement for catastrophic care. This is the lowest level available.
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I am quite surprised by amount of money spent on pets here. May be its quite normal
This made me curious on how much we spend, it seems be about about $600 a year including one major surgery due to an accident.
Watching pets struggle is gut wrenching. But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest.
Elrond has hyperthyroidism. This is quite common in older cats. He takes daily medication to manage this, which is $30 a month or so, and needs bloodwork to check his levels every 6 months. Outside of that, he's a healthy, happy kitty who just wants to cuddle and sleep in the grass. If this falls under your criteria of time to put the cat down, then I disagree quite vehemently with you.
To be more specific I will rephrase my statement as
"But my unpopular take is if my pet has a chronic issue or is not able to live a quality life with out expensive medication or medical intervention, its time to put pet to rest."
Keeping in mind that forum is full of relatively rich people. I might pay $30/month too if it keeps my dog comfortable for a year or two. It is not that much money to me, but it is lot of money for most people in the world. It can mean not having enough to put food on table at end of the month.
A very common opinion is that people who can't afford reasonable care for pets should not have pets.
I can't fathom choosing to have a pet for my own pleasure only to kill it even though it has a totally treatable problem, just because it costs a few thousand a year.
As I said above, I'm very conservative as to what I will put an animal through, so I err much more on the side of euthanasia than a lot of other people do, but that has to do with the ethics that animals can't consent, not because it's expensive.
If I can't afford reasonable care for an animal, then I won't choose to have pets. OR, I will choose to be a foster who homes animals that have their vet costs paid for by the rescue agency.
My mom was a dog breeder and she had it in her contracts that people were obliged to return the dog instead of euthanizing it/rehoming it themselves if it developed health issues they weren't willing to/unable to pay for. No questions, any dog could and must be returned. The clause wasn't actually enforceable, but thankfully people generally adhered to it.
She took back several dogs from one line that unexpectedly developed serious epilepsy around the age of 8. She was able to rehome each one, often with a wealthy medical professional who didn't mind caring for a special needs dog with expensive medications.
I am personally a medical professional who has specifically only adopted older, medically compromised, but happy, stable dogs for exactly this reason.
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A very common opinion is that people who can't afford reasonable care for pets should not have pets.
I can't fathom choosing to have a pet for my own pleasure only to kill it even though it has a totally treatable problem, just because it costs a few thousand a year.
People have had pets for thousands of years, what ever resources they may have or afford, your "very common opinion" is not so common nor wide spread. People can let nature take its course beyond certain effort. What is reasonable is the question here.. Spending few thousand a year on a pet is not reasonable by any means to most people. Its not fiscally responsible either.
We all have different priorities and we can act on their basis.
If it is your priority go for it but that doesn't mean that is the only way for everyone.
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People have had pets for thousands of years, what ever resources they may have or afford, your "very common opinion" is not so common nor wide spread. People can let nature take its course beyond certain effort. What is reasonable is the question here.. Spending few thousand a year on a pet is not reasonable by any means to most people. Its not fiscally responsible either.
Indeed. In an ideal world everyone would be able to spend thousands a year on vet bills. However, in the real world millions of pets killed each year in shelters [1 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/shelters-destroy-millions-of-animals-each-year/2014/11/28/1759aef4-702c-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html)], and it would be better for those pets to enjoy some good years with people that will put them down when they eventually become ill.
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OP, I think you’re doing all you can. Keep asking the vet questions about what is truly necessary and what you stand to gain from everything being recommended. I have two aging dogs who cost me a fortune. My vet recommends a lot of crazy stuff that suddenly isn’t so necessary when I start to push back. I say no a lot. And also still spend a lot. It’s rough.
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A very common opinion is that people who can't afford reasonable care for pets should not have pets.
I can't fathom choosing to have a pet for my own pleasure only to kill it even though it has a totally treatable problem, just because it costs a few thousand a year.
People have had pets for thousands of years, what ever resources they may have or afford, your "very common opinion" is not so common nor wide spread. People can let nature take its course beyond certain effort. What is reasonable is the question here.. Spending few thousand a year on a pet is not reasonable by any means to most people. Its not fiscally responsible either.
We all have different priorities and we can act on their basis.
If it is your priority go for it but that doesn't mean that is the only way for everyone.
I didn't say it was or that it should be.
I merely said that it is common, especially among people who work with animals, and that I *personally* subscribe to the philosophy for myself that I would not take on a pet that I couldn't support.
I then shared another example of this from my dog breeder mom who doesn't feel responsible breeding dogs without being willing to take them back if they get too sick for people to manage.
The attitude is common. You will very frequently hear people say that if you can't afford a pet you shouldn't have one.
If you are curious about *my* personal belief of how *others* should be behave, you may have noticed that I didn't share one.
I'm personally a harm reduction pragmatist.
If you buy a purebred puppy and kill it because the inconvenience of reasonable care became inconveniently financially burdensome to you, then I would gladly scalp you and wear your scalp as a hat, especially if you immediately go out and buy another fucking puppy.
And that's me being polite about my feelings on the matter.
However, if you rescue dogs who otherwise would be put down, give them a good and loving life, but can't afford expensive treatments, then I send you big hugs when you have to make the heartbreaking decision of putting them down if you don't have a good rescue that will take them and rehome them with people like me.
So my personal feeling is that people putting down animals who need reasonable but expensive treatment can range from anything from my heart breaking for them to homicidal rage.
Hence why I decided not to be a vet, even before I found out about the shit pay.
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@Malcat Well said
It never failed to have the biggest complainers about financial problems to my wife be the people with purebred dogs
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Chase fish, purebred dogs also need to be rescued. I prefer Maltese because they don’t bother my allergies or asthma. They end up in shelters and with rescue groups. I have officially decided that local vets have lost their minds. I took Max to the vet for his blood work today before his dental on Tuesday. As I left I was given the estimate. Last year it was 500 if they didn’t pull teeth and the high estimate was 1k. They pulled 2 teeth and I paid 800. I was expecting a slight increase since it went up a lot last year.
After the blood work they bring me the estimate and the low estimate with no teeth pulled is 1k and the high with 3 teeth being pulled is 1900. They don’t know until they knock them out if they will need to pull teeth or not. Now I have already paid 200 for blood work. I am having this dental because I have money invested but certainly can’t do this yearly for 2 dogs. I have already waited 18 months thinking I could pay 1k per dog every 18 months. Pet insurance doesn’t cover dentals. I have shopped around prices in the past among good vets and they are fairly standard.
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Chase fish, purebred dogs also need to be rescued. I prefer Maltese because they don’t bother my allergies or asthma. They end up in shelters and with rescue groups. I have officially decided that local vets have lost their minds. I took Max to the vet for his blood work today before his dental on Tuesday. As I left I was given the estimate. Last year it was 500 if they didn’t pull teeth and the high estimate was 1k. They pulled 2 teeth and I paid 800. I was expecting a slight increase since it went up a lot last year.
After the blood work they bring me the estimate and the low estimate with no teeth pulled is 1k and the high with 3 teeth being pulled is 1900. They don’t know until they knock them out if they will need to pull teeth or not. Now I have already paid 200 for blood work. I am having this dental because I have money invested but certainly can’t do this yearly for 2 dogs. I have already waited 18 months thinking I could pay 1k per dog every 18 months. Pet insurance doesn’t cover dentals. I have shopped around prices in the past among good vets and they are fairly standard.
Not that you are saying you will put down your dogs for dental reasons, but just to make a point based on earlier comments about expensive care, you do have options short of euthanasia for the expense of dental care.
Rehoming: cute little Maltese are easy to rehome, someone with money would want them.
Or full clearance: meaning you pay once to have all teeth that are likely to ever need to be removed removed right away.
I've had several toothless dogs, they eat just fine. My little dude just had full clearance except for a few molars that would have broken his jaw to remove.
If maintaining their teeth is truly not a sustainable prospect for you, they're better off without teeth and the horrible effect that periodontitis has on their general health. Plus little dog teeth have very short roots, so extraction is not a particularly invasive treatment, and healing from it once has a lot of benefits. Then they also don't have to be put through general anesthetic when they're older and more frail.
My cat has a heart murmur and high heart rate, and the vet is always anxious about anesthetic for him. He is suuuuuper prone to gum disease for some stupid reason and we're talking about full clearance for him to prevent the risks of chronic gum disease (horrible) and anesthesia as he ages.
Certainly a far better option than killing a pet over their teeth being expensive. Not that I'm saying you would. I'm just making a point.
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Thanks Malcat, I hadn't thought of that option and that might be useful in 10 years for my little dog, based on the last one's dental experience. The last one had to have his last dental when he had a bad heart murmur and they couldn't keep him under long enough to remove all that they'd like. In hindsight, we should have removed more earlier.
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Thanks Malcat, I hadn't thought of that option and that might be useful in 10 years for my little dog, based on the last one's dental experience. The last one had to have his last dental when he had a bad heart murmur and they couldn't keep him under long enough to remove all that they'd like. In hindsight, we should have removed more earlier.
Yeah, prophylactic tooth removal isn't offered very often but really should be discussed when it comes to little dogs or any animals that are prone to chronic gum disease.
The systemic affects of gum disease are atrocious, especially on the heart. I would rather a toothless dog than a dog with unmanageable periodontitis any day. Dogs don't really chew much, their teeth are designed for shearing meat and swallowing it in chunks, not chewing kibble, so as long as they can swallow it, their generally good. Cats too.
That's why whenever they throw up its full on, intact kibble, not mush like human puke.
Plus if you have a bitey little psychopath like my tiny dog who is steadily getting more aggressive as he goes blind and deaf, it's nice that he has no teeth to bite people.
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I have been told by more than one vet that on tiny dogs they can’t pull teeth that aren’t loose because you can break their jaws. I asked when a 5lb dog was left with one molar and a year later had to have her knocked out just to pull that one. She did fine with no teeth.
I would never put a dog to sleep over dentals and would never give them away. My experience has been people with the most money are usually the stingiest especially on pets. Max will have his on Tuesday and I will start pricing dentals with some other practices again. I can’t believe they have all gone up that much. I have downsized from 4 to 2 due to natural attrition and will probably only have one in the future. At one point I could have flown to Kansas where I have a friend and paid her vet and it was still cheaper even with airfare so I check into that again.
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I have been told by more than one vet that on tiny dogs they can’t pull teeth that aren’t loose because you can break their jaws. I asked when a 5lb dog was left with one molar and a year later had to have her knocked out just to pull that one. She did fine with no teeth.
I would never put a dog to sleep over dentals and would never give them away. My experience has been people with the most money are usually the stingiest especially on pets. Max will have his on Tuesday and I will start pricing dentals with some other practices again. I can’t believe they have all gone up that much. I have downsized from 4 to 2 due to natural attrition and will probably only have one in the future. At one point I could have flown to Kansas where I have a friend and paid her vet and it was still cheaper even with airfare so I check into that again.
I really didn't think you would.
And yeah, full clearance for little dogs often only means the teeth they can safely remove. My little guy (also called Max, lol) as I mentioned also has a few high risk of jaw fracture teeth left.
It's a complex risk with little dogs, because the molars are often anchored in a way that is dangerous to remove, but also,.chronic gum disease makes the jaw bone disintegrate, leaving it even thinner and more prone to fracture.
It's a real catch 22.
But yeah, dental issues and dental costs are one of the trade offs of having little dogs, unfortunately. On the plus side they tend to live longer and surprisingly hardy little buggers.
I've had a ton of purebred little dog rescues because I rescue the worst off dogs possible: the puppy mill breeders. And whenever there's an 'omg this dog should not have survived' case, it's usually a little one.
My last mill rescue was a Maltese, awesome special girl. One of the weirdest and collect dogs ever. She had no teeth when I got her though, so I didn't have to deal with that issue.
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I mentioned tooth health and yes as some have mentioned it seems to be a little dog problem (our dogs were little too). With ours, the one that got her teeth brushed regularly did FAR better than the others we had. She still had to have the occasional dental, but it was not once a year with regular extractions like the others. She passed with a fair number of healthy teeth. Brush those little dog's teeth. Not only will it save you money, but they will be healthier and you don't have to risk the anesthesia as much.
Also agree with the sentiment that if you get a pet, it is your responsibility to care for it- expect accidents and illnesses. We don't do this, but I had a dog breed that was prone to breaks and I know people who kept a separate accounts to save up for the procedure should their dog need it. I might start a separate account for my cats. I already have a line item in my budget but I don't sweep the cost into a separate account. The discussions on this thread are great. It's interesting to read how much the costs of dentals have increased, the last one we had a few years back was around $300. Anyway, always good to talk about tracking our pet spending and how to fo it better.
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15 years ago I flew to Texas to adopt a deaf puppy mill breeder. She was unsocialized and not potty trained. She was so afraid of everything. She was so smart and I made up signs to communicate with her and she knew 7. She ended up being a awesome happy dog and lived until 18 and she was 8 when we got her.
When I was married and we both had good jobs we took the old dogs that no one wanted. I have a friend that since retiring has 10 old puppy mill poms that she devotes her life too. She was lots of money and lives in Texas where vet care is much cheaper. There’s no sacrifice that I won’t make personally to make sure my dogs have the care they need.
Besides my real kids my Maltese are the most important thing in my life. Funny Malcat that your dog’s name is max also but I read it’s gotten quite popular. In the 18 years that I have rescued dogs I have made a difference in 9 dogs lives. After these dogs pass my plan is to adopt the oldest small dog at the shelter and rinse and repeat until I die.
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Thanks everyone for confirming that small dogs are not for me! They're cute as heck but I have no desire to deal with those kinds of dental issues. I grew up with a 7 pounder who lived 19 1/2 years and only had one cleaning done. The vet recommended against another as she got older, and when she had to be taken to a different vet one time because her usual one wasn't open, we were told in a snotty voice "Her teeth are atrocious" by their vet. Another totally unrelated incident at that office put me off them for good.
I've only had larger dogs myself and I plan to keep it this way in future. One of my cats just cost me 650.00 for a cleaning and the other is due too. Plus the dog. That's enough for me.
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15 years ago I flew to Texas to adopt a deaf puppy mill breeder. She was unsocialized and not potty trained. She was so afraid of everything. She was so smart and I made up signs to communicate with her and she knew 7. She ended up being a awesome happy dog and lived until 18 and she was 8 when we got her.
When I was married and we both had good jobs we took the old dogs that no one wanted. I have a friend that since retiring has 10 old puppy mill poms that she devotes her life too. She was lots of money and lives in Texas where vet care is much cheaper. There’s no sacrifice that I won’t make personally to make sure my dogs have the care they need.
Besides my real kids my Maltese are the most important thing in my life. Funny Malcat that your dog’s name is max also but I read it’s gotten quite popular. In the 18 years that I have rescued dogs I have made a difference in 9 dogs lives. After these dogs pass my plan is to adopt the oldest small dog at the shelter and rinse and repeat until I die.
Awesome!
My second last rescue was the most brutal one I've ever had. He was a ~10 year old shitzhu and had never been out of his cage except for breeding. They were stacked in wired cages, pooped and peed on each other and hosed down.
He was so infected he lost an eye, was blind in the other, was deaf because his inner ears had rotted away, had all of his teeth pulled and big voids in his upper jaw that eroded through to his nasal passages, and his vocal cords were destroyed. His feet and spine were fucked from never having been able to walk on solid ground.
Evidently he just screamed for the first 3 weeks and would only drink his own urine.
Ever tried to socialize and train a blind, deaf dog who has never been outside or known people?
Lol, he ended up being the best dog ever and the best communicator ever. By magic, he figured out how to navigate the house with no issues. A light whimper meant he needed to go outside. He taught himself that grass was the best place to pee. A yawn meant he wanted down or up, basically away from wherever he was.
He also instantly calmed any other dogs or animals around him.
He walked into the total insanity of my mom's pack, who ate always craziest when a new dog arrives, and within a minute, they all calmed right down and most lay down around him when he found a spot to rest.
Seriously zen dog.
I called him Winky because he had one eye and looked like he was winking. I wrote a lot at that time inspired by him and called it 'Winky Wisdom."
In no small way, that dog informed quite a bit of my personal philosophy as a disabled person.
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Thanks everyone for confirming that small dogs are not for me! They're cute as heck but I have no desire to deal with those kinds of dental issues. I grew up with a 7 pounder who lived 19 1/2 years and only had one cleaning done. The vet recommended against another as she got older, and when she had to be taken to a different vet one time because her usual one wasn't open, we were told in a snotty voice "Her teeth are atrocious" by their vet. Another totally unrelated incident at that office put me off them for good.
I've only had larger dogs myself and I plan to keep it this way in future. One of my cats just cost me 650.00 for a cleaning and the other is due too. Plus the dog. That's enough for me.
They're definitely not for everyone but g'damn I vibed so heavy with the breed we had -- lovely little cuddle bugs. We rescued all of ours too. We had one from a puppy mill rescue - that was an experience but interestingly as far as vet bills go she wasn't too bad. The puppymill doggo ended up being our favorite dog and so even though we cancelled our dog ownership card we ended on a high note with her. I doubt she could be bested by any mix or breed. :( Still miss her heaps.
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Wow. This thread has been a wealth of information! It sounds like a lot of people (but not all) have the same philosophy of care, so that’s helpful.
I’m definitely going to check out medication pricing at a human pharmacy & Costco to see if that helps a bit. I’ll also continue to ask questions for every recommended test and treatment. Though honestly as a non medical person, sometimes it’s hard to tell what’s truly necessary vs just good to know. I have to go too far for a rural vet to be practical, but I do go to an independent clinic that has to refer out for specialty tests and care, so they almost always offer an alternative that doesn’t require it.
It was interesting to read the discussion and strong opinions about dentals. The dog that prompted my original post had his “final” dental at age 11.5 yrs. We made the decision at that time that this would be his final trip under anesthesia due to a heart murmur that makes anesthesia risky. Honestly that decision has made many of the decisions in the past 2.5 yrs much easier - if it can’t be done without anesthesia, it isn’t an option.
I guess we’ll keep doing what we’re doing and just look at the small areas where we can cut costs. The money isn’t a problem, I just want to know that we’re not spending unnecessarily. Thanks!
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Malcat, Winky sounded like a awesome dog. Today I was reading posts on Nextdoor and someone was saying how much they love their vet and how reasonable they are. I then looked at reviews which were good. I am going to take Amy there for her checkup and then ask for a dental estimate. So maybe I have found a solution.
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Malcat, Winky sounded like a awesome dog. Today I was reading posts on Nextdoor and someone was saying how much they love their vet and how reasonable they are. I then looked at reviews which were good. I am going to take Amy there for her checkup and then ask for a dental estimate. So maybe I have found a solution.
Winky was the best. He only lasted a year, but he had an awesome retirement while it lasted.
Max is a teacup poodle I adopted when he was young. The only young rescue I've ever had, and he's a fucking asshole. I've had a lot of dogs, done a ton of training with him, and he's just a little fucking psychopath and getting worse as he gets older, blinder, and more deaf.
At least he's entertaining, but it's so my luck that all of my chill, easy, awesome dogs would be old and die after a year or two with me, and the one I have for a decade is a hostile little lunatic.
I love him to bits though. And he's stupid cute. Like grown women have cried at the sight of him cute.
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I had a tiny Maltese Cassie that I bought when she was 6 months. One of my first dogs as a adult before I got into rescue. She was one crazy dog. She would jump up and bite people on the butt or back of their legs, pee in your shoes, growl and tried to attack big dogs and boss everyone around. We called her bipolar Cassie. She adored me and was a one person dog. She died at 11 despite having a excellent pedigree. I was heartbroken when she died even though I had 3 other dogs.
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I had a tiny Maltese Cassie that I bought when she was 6 months. One of my first dogs as a adult before I got into rescue. She was one crazy dog. She would jump up and bite people on the butt or back of their legs, pee in your shoes, growl and tried to attack big dogs and boss everyone around. We called her bipolar Cassie. She adored me and was a one person dog. She died at 11 despite having a excellent pedigree. I was heartbroken when she died even though I had 3 other dogs.
Sometimes little psychopaths are incredibly lovable. Max is my best bud.
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Max sounds like a special baby:)).
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Just wanted to report the happy ending to my dental tale of woe:)). My vet only works 2 days a week so when she got to work she immediately lowered the estimates. I have been going to her for 18 years and followed her to the practice she is at now. When I got divorced I told her that my finances had changed. Anyway she charged me 849 for dental which includes blood work even though she pulled 2 teeth.
Luckily I noticed max had a ear infection before the dental so they took care of it while he was under. That was a additional 150 which is normal for here. Sadly Max’s liver values were double so will redo blood work in 8 weeks. He is only 5 so hoping it resolves by itself. Really glad that I have the pet insurance because money won’t need to be a issue in treatment.
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So, one of the cats from the other side of our house had a dental crisis this week - turns out she has a broken tooth. They had to call EIGHT vets to find one who could take it out before next month. Yikes.
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Cranky, my pet insurance would cover that type of situation. Supposed like we also have a vet shortage but it seems like we have plenty. I was talking to my sister in Chicago and she paid 210 for her dog’s last dental.
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Cranky, my pet insurance would cover that type of situation. Supposed like we also have a vet shortage but it seems like we have plenty. I was talking to my sister in Chicago and she paid 210 for her dog’s last dental.
HOW??? How would that even cover anesthesia??
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My friends in Texas and Kansas pay similar amounts which is why I am considering flying out to have it done on both. My dogs are so small they can fly under the seat in the same carrier.
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Cranky, my pet insurance would cover that type of situation. Supposed like we also have a vet shortage but it seems like we have plenty. I was talking to my sister in Chicago and she paid 210 for her dog’s last dental.
HOW??? How would that even cover anesthesia??
Maybe it wasn't given any? Owwwwwww!
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Cranky, my pet insurance would cover that type of situation. Supposed like we also have a vet shortage but it seems like we have plenty. I was talking to my sister in Chicago and she paid 210 for her dog’s last dental.
HOW??? How would that even cover anesthesia??
Yes her dog had anesthesia as do my friend’s dogs in the other 2 states. All are very fussy about their babies.
Maybe it wasn't given any? Owwwwwww!
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Cranky, my pet insurance would cover that type of situation. Supposed like we also have a vet shortage but it seems like we have plenty. I was talking to my sister in Chicago and she paid 210 for her dog’s last dental.
HOW??? How would that even cover anesthesia??
Yes her dog had anesthesia as do my friend’s dogs in the other 2 states. All are very fussy about their babies.
Maybe it wasn't given any? Owwwwwww!
But how can a comic make any money off of doing anethesia, and cleaning, which is time consuming, and only charge $210??
I just can't wrap my mind around that being profitable.
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Cranky, my pet insurance would cover that type of situation. Supposed like we also have a vet shortage but it seems like we have plenty. I was talking to my sister in Chicago and she paid 210 for her dog’s last dental.
HOW??? How would that even cover anesthesia??
Yes her dog had anesthesia as do my friend’s dogs in the other 2 states. All are very fussy about their babies.
Maybe it wasn't given any? Owwwwwww!
But how can a comic make any money off of doing anethesia, and cleaning, which is time consuming, and only charge $210??
I just can't wrap my mind around that being profitable.
Low cost, subsidized clinics do exist.
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Low cost, subsidized clinics do exist.
Definitely not a thing here. Who pays then? Who is subsidizing?
I'm fascinated by this.
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Low cost, subsidized clinics do exist.
Definitely not a thing here. Who pays then? Who is subsidizing?
I'm fascinated by this.
Animal charities. The majority of vet expenses are early life and end of life car. Many of the not for profits setup vaccine and spay/neuter clinics. It's both low cost because of subsidies and spay / neuters are pretty efficient if you can assembly line them for the veterinarian, my wife did this both in a vet school rotation and for some per-day work at one place we lived.
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Low cost, subsidized clinics do exist.
Definitely not a thing here. Who pays then? Who is subsidizing?
I'm fascinated by this.
Animal charities. The majority of vet expenses are early life and end of life car. Many of the not for profits setup vaccine and spay/neuter clinics. It's both low cost because of subsidies and spay / neuters are pretty efficient if you can assembly line them for the veterinarian, my wife did this both in a vet school rotation and for some per-day work at one place we lived.
Yeah, I've seen some charities do limited free bet care, but I've never seen subsidized dental care. That's amazing if some places have that.
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Are small dogs really prone to more dental issues than large dogs? I've only ever had/grown up with large dogs. My current beasts are 50+ pound (smallest dogs I've ever had) lab/standard poodle mixes. (I have the term labradoodle because I think it just encourages their popularity, which comes largely from irresponsible breeding). With in 3 months of adopting them, I spent about $1000 per dog to on dentals, and that's without extractions. (I live in a H/VH COL area. I asked around and that was about the going rate, with many people paying more.) Doctor feared they'd each need an extraction which would have pushed up the cost but thankfully when they got them under, neither teeth needed to be removed. I adopted them at 10yo and they pretty clearly had had dental care in years.
My parents have a standard poodle. (Former breeding dog.) He too came to them with awful teeth. Even though he gets regular cleanings, every year or two he needs another couple teeth removed. I suspect that over time they've put at least a couple thousand $ into his mouth.
Is this just bad luck? Clearly it's anecdotal. Are smaller dogs mouths worse than big dogs'?
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@Villanelle
Small dogs tend to live longer and dental issues show up later in life. That's the only big correlation. Most of the rest is diet: Treats, human food, wet food, raw foods, breaks from giving dog bones ect, over a diet of basic dry kibble from the major manufacturers that's designed for pet health.
Brushing the dog's teeth a few times a week helps as well
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Are small dogs really prone to more dental issues than large dogs? I've only ever had/grown up with large dogs. My current beasts are 50+ pound (smallest dogs I've ever had) lab/standard poodle mixes. (I have the term labradoodle because I think it just encourages their popularity, which comes largely from irresponsible breeding). With in 3 months of adopting them, I spent about $1000 per dog to on dentals, and that's without extractions. (I live in a H/VH COL area. I asked around and that was about the going rate, with many people paying more.) Doctor feared they'd each need an extraction which would have pushed up the cost but thankfully when they got them under, neither teeth needed to be removed. I adopted them at 10yo and they pretty clearly had had dental care in years.
My parents have a standard poodle. (Former breeding dog.) He too came to them with awful teeth. Even though he gets regular cleanings, every year or two he needs another couple teeth removed. I suspect that over time they've put at least a couple thousand $ into his mouth.
Is this just bad luck? Clearly it's anecdotal. Are smaller dogs mouths worse than big dogs'?
Yes, small dogs are definitely more prone to tooth problems because they have very little bone support for their teeth, so tooth loss is dramatically more likely. Many little dog teeth aren't anchored in bone at all and just floating in gum tissue. These are pretty much guaranteed to have problems eventually.
Another theory is that little dogs have more crowded teeth, which traps more bacteria. Certainly, all of my tiny dogs have had worse tartar buildup than my big dogs, and universally more crowded teeth.
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From mine and my friend’s experiences big dogs rarely need dentals. One of my Maltese that I got at 6 months had her first dental at 2 and by 7 was toothless. She was only 5lbs. My vet said in the small dogs it really doesn’t matter if they eat dry or wet food because neither is on their teeth long. Also the smaller they are the riskier dental treats are even smaller ones made for their size. I quit giving them when one got stuck in her throat and almost killed her. It was a 1100 vet bill to retrieve it and this was 10 years ago.
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Super interesting. Thanks, everyone. I guess I just got "lucky". We now do daily dental chews and add some powder to their food that is supposed to soften tartar, or something like that. Hopefully next year at their annual exam their teeth are better. I'll spend what I have to, but a $2000+ annual vet bill would be nice to avoid!
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I would definitely do the dental chews if I could. I also used the powder for a year and saw no difference. 18 years of little dogs and I think I have tried everything:)).
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Speaking of pet dental care, I just found out that my 11 year old cat needs to have two teeth extracted and a cleaning. My vet quoted me $1243, which includes $160 for blood work and $250 for xrays. She said the blood work is to check for any issues that might make anaesthesia risky, and the xrays are to check for other hidden cavities. I'm inclined to decline those, since she's otherwise healthy and has gone under without blood work before (they just used a lighter dose to be safe, and the vet did say she'd still recommend the procedure even if blood work turned up something) and the xrays seem like an unnecessary extra, but is there anything I'm overlooking here? Would anyone more experienced with pet dental care recommend that I do either of those? I'm going to do the dental work, and I could pay for the whole thing if I had to, but if it's not necessary I'd rather save the money.
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The majority of vet costs are beginning of life and end of life. Similar to people care too actually. But you can do things to mitigate the costs. I'm doing that right now in fact.
I posted above somewhere about Arwen going to the vet for grooming. Well, we also did the really complete bloodwork ($300) because not grooming is not normal, and it came back as nonspecific "something is wrong", with the something very possibly being cancer. And something is wrong. Arwen isn't eating well, her behavior is way off, she's dropping weight. I could take her into the vet, do a bunch more tests and try to treat this. It likely wouldn't work, whatever it is has been going for months and by the time they're starting to refuse food, you're pretty much done. And Arwen doesn't like the vet. She doesn't like taking meds. Her entire personality is one which prefers low intervention.
And that's what I'm doing. I do have a vet appointment scheduled, but honestly, that will likely turn into an euthanasia appointment. I'm doing what I can to encourage her to eat - I've got the meat baby food, I got a variety of kitty junk foods to try, etc. It's not enough to maintain her weight but she simply isn't willing to eat more. So I'm spending $$ on the pureed foods that she seems be eating best right now, rather than $$$$ on vet care that won't be successful and will make her miserable.
This isn't easy. It requires that you be emotionally strong enough to accept the inevitable. It requires the willingness to put the animal's needs above your own. I have practice - Arwen will be the 4th cat I've lost since 2019, but it doesn't really make it easier. Each one has declined differently, and she's the first that I knew with certainty more than a day or two before the last vet appointment (it's day 4 of certain knowledge for me right now). I am currently a highly functional mess. Because I know that the cat who is currently purring on my lap is dying. Its hard. I've had her for 14 years, she is the first cat I adopted as a kitten and raised myself. She has given me all her love, and I will repay that debt.
It's not a money decision. I have the money. It's a philosophy that I am responsible for the health and wellbeing of the animals I own, and that includes a good death. It just happens to save a lot of money sometimes.
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@PoutineLover - I think it'll depend on your veterinarian's comfort level. There's a higher risk in putting a senior animal under anesthesia and balancing that risk with the quality of life issues around not doing dental care. My wife had a ceiling on age for putting an otherwise okay animal under anesthesia for dental work.
@Sibley I wish you the best, such a painful quality of life decision. Everything is about quality of life at that point.
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Speaking of pet dental care, I just found out that my 11 year old cat needs to have two teeth extracted and a cleaning. My vet quoted me $1243, which includes $160 for blood work and $250 for xrays. She said the blood work is to check for any issues that might make anaesthesia risky, and the xrays are to check for other hidden cavities. I'm inclined to decline those, since she's otherwise healthy and has gone under without blood work before (they just used a lighter dose to be safe, and the vet did say she'd still recommend the procedure even if blood work turned up something) and the xrays seem like an unnecessary extra, but is there anything I'm overlooking here? Would anyone more experienced with pet dental care recommend that I do either of those? I'm going to do the dental work, and I could pay for the whole thing if I had to, but if it's not necessary I'd rather save the money.
The x-rays can be the difference between causing major damage to the cat's skull and not causing major damage to the cat's skull. I personally wouldn't skip them. That a lot for x-rays though, are they proposing to x-ray all the teeth or just the teeth to be extracted?
I don't remember what let dental x-rays cost me, I would definitely ask though why they're so much more than human dental x-rays.
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My vet won’t put a dog under without blood work but some vets will. My vet does the X-rays after they are knocked out. The blood work once determined one of my dogs had liver issues and it was unsafe to knock them out. The age I quit doing dentals varies by health. Sisley, the greatest gift we give our precious babies is a easy death. I am so sorry about your kitty.
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In the small town nearest to me there was a vet who was considered one step below full sainthood. He was available any time in an emergency and often didn't charge his low income clients at all.
He retired but his clinic is still run by like minded folks and the prices are extremely low. Another quirk is they don't take reservations: first come, first served. There's a line every day at 7am.
Many of my friends don't use that clinic because they feel the standard of care is too low. Cost savings is one thing but most pet owners want our pets to live good lives as well. I did use the clinic, but my big Newfie mutt didn't need much care over his long (almost 14!) life. In fact one of the vets moonlights as "Dr Death" and will do a home visit euthanasia for $175. cash.
It was a beautiful thing to hold my boy out on our bluff, overlooking his territory, with the birds singing goodnight, and the sun setting over the river as he wagged his tail right up to the end (*sigh*).
I'm taking a little break from dog ownership, I've had a dog for fifty years (I'm 55). Actually five dogs over that span.
My friend rescues ex guide dogs (and others) and continually has at least four at one time, most near the end, and she spends a lot on them (she can afford it) and has lots of acres with trails and ponds and elk...dog retirement heaven.
One of my favorites was a guide dog that retired from an owner in Manhattan that lived in a high rise and retired to the country paradise. It took her a few years to lose the training and go wild in the country. Now you can't get her out of the pond, she doesn't mind at all anymore! From highly trained and keeping her owner safe in Manhattan to soaking wet running through the brambles barking at ghosts. Pretty awesome.
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Speaking of pet dental care, I just found out that my 11 year old cat needs to have two teeth extracted and a cleaning. My vet quoted me $1243, which includes $160 for blood work and $250 for xrays. She said the blood work is to check for any issues that might make anaesthesia risky, and the xrays are to check for other hidden cavities. I'm inclined to decline those, since she's otherwise healthy and has gone under without blood work before (they just used a lighter dose to be safe, and the vet did say she'd still recommend the procedure even if blood work turned up something) and the xrays seem like an unnecessary extra, but is there anything I'm overlooking here? Would anyone more experienced with pet dental care recommend that I do either of those? I'm going to do the dental work, and I could pay for the whole thing if I had to, but if it's not necessary I'd rather save the money.
The x-rays can be the difference between causing major damage to the cat's skull and not causing major damage to the cat's skull. I personally wouldn't skip them. That a lot for x-rays though, are they proposing to x-ray all the teeth or just the teeth to be extracted?
I don't remember what let dental x-rays cost me, I would definitely ask though why they're so much more than human dental x-rays.
I think the proposal is to xray the whole mouth. She said there were two teeth with visible cavities and that the xrays would show if other teeth have them below the gum line I guess. I don't know the going rates for animal xrays, I was considering calling some other vets to get price comparisons, but I don't know if they can provide accurate info without an exam.
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Speaking of pet dental care, I just found out that my 11 year old cat needs to have two teeth extracted and a cleaning. My vet quoted me $1243, which includes $160 for blood work and $250 for xrays. She said the blood work is to check for any issues that might make anaesthesia risky, and the xrays are to check for other hidden cavities. I'm inclined to decline those, since she's otherwise healthy and has gone under without blood work before (they just used a lighter dose to be safe, and the vet did say she'd still recommend the procedure even if blood work turned up something) and the xrays seem like an unnecessary extra, but is there anything I'm overlooking here? Would anyone more experienced with pet dental care recommend that I do either of those? I'm going to do the dental work, and I could pay for the whole thing if I had to, but if it's not necessary I'd rather save the money.
My vet won't do a dental without bloodwork within the past 30 days. In their defense, particularly for an older animal, for some issues they can use different anesthesia (or maybe a different combo of drugs) that makes recovery easier and presents fewer risks to the animal. But I do think they go overboard sometimes... bloodwork within the past few months ought to be sufficient, or if you have a younger animal in good health, it may not be strictly necessary. (I'm sure the vets would disagree with me!)
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The stories from @RainyDay and @Malcat about tests being offered for pets that needed euthanasia make me so sad and mad!
Males me thankful for my vet. It's in the city in a wealthy area, and while all around the vets are suggesting expensive tests, they keep it to what's needed. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I had pet insurance but I don't think so. It was even just a locum there who said to me a few months before my last dog was pts "I think we are at end of life care now". I had no idea, he was just trucking on as usual but she suspected he had something that would end him I think. I'm so grateful she said that because it put the seed in my mind and meant things didn't get dragged out later.
I just want to share the other side of this...
My wife always wanted to be a veterinarian. It was life's goal. Graduated near the top of her class in high school, undergraduate, and was valedictorian of her Veterinary class. Graduation year 2007.
We moved to Atlanta, ground zero of the housing bust. Not because prices declined the worse there, but because such a large percentage of the population was employed related to new home construction or in the manufacturing of building supplies. The majority of her career was spent wrestling with economic euthanasia, having to put down pets with fixable ailments because the owners could not pay. It was the opposite of her dreams, being the doctor of death for animals that could be helped....but there was no money. She accumulated six figures of debt to earn $45,000 to $70,000 while working for struggling business owners. Veterinarians were near the top of the list for suicide, with a lot of this driven by the difference between expectations and reality.
We were fortunate - I earned great money and she was incredible on the expense side and FI was our way out. We were CoastFI and she scaled back to relief work in 2014 then stopped all together shortly thereafter. Most veterinarians don't get that escape ramp.
https://www.nomv.org/about/mission/
Thanks for listening to the rant, I just struggled with all of the "greedy veterinarian" talk. I can promise you that not a single veterinarian goes into this "for the money". They may change after getting into the profession and/or get jaded over time, but if you are a college student and have any focus whatsoever on making money, veterinary medicine will not be your choice.
As a veterinarian myself (who also managed to escape practice, though we aren't FIRE yet), thank you for sharing this story!
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As a veterinarian myself (granted, one who left practice 2.5 years ago), I'd say that over-the-top veterinary recommendations are far more motivated by fear of lawsuits than by a desire for profit. As veterinarians, we are trained/expected to always offer Plan A first. If the client declines, then we can offer Plan B. If they decline that, we can offer Plan C... and so on. But each of those recommendations needs to be explicitly declined (and documented in the medical record) before a "lower" level of care can be offered.
I worked with an old-school vet who told the owner of every sick older dog that their dog was dying of cancer and needed to be euthanized. Clients loved him because they believed him and their visits were cheap, but it was completely unethical. Granted, the guy also gave a lot of unindicated/contraindicated injections, so he was sketchy in multiple ways. But he was cheap, so clients preferred him to us younger associates who actually recommended diagnostics and appropriate treatments.
When it comes to things like pre-anesthetic bloodwork, some veterinarians are comfortable making that optional and some are not. Even if they client declines it, there's still a liability risk if the pet experiences an anesthetic complication... not to mention the personal guilt that you would feel over that outcome. It's hard for me to envision a situation in which I'd be willing to perform a dental on a senior pet without recent bloodwork.
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The only advice I have (and I’m not sure I’ll take it myself when the time comes) is to tell yourself and your pet every single day what a great life they’ve had. Reinforce for yourself that you e given your pet so much love over the past x years and be grateful for the time you’ve had together. Change your mindset so you can rejoice in the life you’ve shared together rather than focusing on death and whether you’re making a decision “too soon”. Every day you had was a gift. So if you pull the plug a week or a month earlier than absolutely necessary , so what? Your pet knows it was loved and that’s the most important thing.
Good luck
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The majority of vet costs are beginning of life and end of life. Similar to people care too actually. But you can do things to mitigate the costs. I'm doing that right now in fact.
I posted above somewhere about Arwen going to the vet for grooming. Well, we also did the really complete bloodwork ($300) because not grooming is not normal, and it came back as nonspecific "something is wrong", with the something very possibly being cancer. And something is wrong. Arwen isn't eating well, her behavior is way off, she's dropping weight. I could take her into the vet, do a bunch more tests and try to treat this. It likely wouldn't work, whatever it is has been going for months and by the time they're starting to refuse food, you're pretty much done. And Arwen doesn't like the vet. She doesn't like taking meds. Her entire personality is one which prefers low intervention.
And that's what I'm doing. I do have a vet appointment scheduled, but honestly, that will likely turn into an euthanasia appointment. I'm doing what I can to encourage her to eat - I've got the meat baby food, I got a variety of kitty junk foods to try, etc. It's not enough to maintain her weight but she simply isn't willing to eat more. So I'm spending $$ on the pureed foods that she seems be eating best right now, rather than $$$$ on vet care that won't be successful and will make her miserable.
This isn't easy. It requires that you be emotionally strong enough to accept the inevitable. It requires the willingness to put the animal's needs above your own. I have practice - Arwen will be the 4th cat I've lost since 2019, but it doesn't really make it easier. Each one has declined differently, and she's the first that I knew with certainty more than a day or two before the last vet appointment (it's day 4 of certain knowledge for me right now). I am currently a highly functional mess. Because I know that the cat who is currently purring on my lap is dying. Its hard. I've had her for 14 years, she is the first cat I adopted as a kitten and raised myself. She has given me all her love, and I will repay that debt.
It's not a money decision. I have the money. It's a philosophy that I am responsible for the health and wellbeing of the animals I own, and that includes a good death. It just happens to save a lot of money sometimes.
Update. Arwen did indeed have her vet appointment, actually right after she had a pretty rough night. Dehydrated and clearly ill, plus something going on with her belly making her quite uncomfortable. Vet looked at cat, looked at records, and suggested an x-ray, which hadn't been done yet. I thought this reasonable and agreed. X-ray showed air in her stomach and nothing else indicative. So, we had a dehydrated, non-grooming, non-eating cat with air in her stomach, and bloodwork/xray showing symptoms only, no cause.
Vet suggested one round of intervention, after which if it didn't work we'd know for sure she's end of life. That intervention? Fluids and a shot of antibiotics. At minimum, these would make her feel better temporarily, and then depending on what's wrong it might enable a recovery. Vet thinks the odds are against a recovery but that it was worth trying.
So that's what we did. She got fluids and the antibiotics, and is clearly feeling better now, as we expected. The real question is how long will it last. We have no idea what's wrong, we just have a list of stuff we know that it isn't. If she's unable to maintain or improve her condition and declines again, then vet and I agreed the next visit will be the last. It was actually pretty funny, the guy was going into the whole quality of life is most important spiel.
So, cost wise: $600 a few weeks ago for grooming, anesthesia and the really complete bloodwork (though that wasn't intended to be end of life care so technically I shouldn't include it), and $300 on Monday for xray, fluids, and antibiotic shot. Not nothing, not horrifically expensive, but humane and fair.
This is part of having pets. Its not easy. But the benefits I get from having cats outweighs the cost to me.
As for outlook right now: Arwen's feeling better, but that means all the symptoms have been dialed back. They're still there. She's eating better, but still needs a bit of coaxing to get enough food. Still not grooming. Still clingy. We'll see what happens.
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As a veterinarian myself (granted, one who left practice 2.5 years ago), I'd say that over-the-top veterinary recommendations are far more motivated by fear of lawsuits than by a desire for profit. As veterinarians, we are trained/expected to always offer Plan A first. If the client declines, then we can offer Plan B. If they decline that, we can offer Plan C... and so on. But each of those recommendations needs to be explicitly declined (and documented in the medical record) before a "lower" level of care can be offered.
I worked with an old-school vet who told the owner of every sick older dog that their dog was dying of cancer and needed to be euthanized. Clients loved him because they believed him and their visits were cheap, but it was completely unethical. Granted, the guy also gave a lot of unindicated/contraindicated injections, so he was sketchy in multiple ways. But he was cheap, so clients preferred him to us younger associates who actually recommended diagnostics and appropriate treatments.
When it comes to things like pre-anesthetic bloodwork, some veterinarians are comfortable making that optional and some are not. Even if they client declines it, there's still a liability risk if the pet experiences an anesthetic complication... not to mention the personal guilt that you would feel over that outcome. It's hard for me to envision a situation in which I'd be willing to perform a dental on a senior pet without recent bloodwork.
This isn't my personal experience, although my definition of "over the top" is very different from the average clients because I'm a retired medical professional who never flinched at telling people they needed 5 figures worth of care.
For me, the "over the top" is when they actively shame me for not consenting to extremely heroic measures for a dying animal.
Otherwise, I don't care, recommend away. I want to know what the gold-standard treatment is and I wouldn't trust a vet who didn't offer it.
So my personal stories of bottom-line driven vets comes from the perspective of someone who has a very good understanding of treatment being offered/pushed, and an extremely good understanding of clinic management and finances in general.
It's the same way the vast majority of dentists are just offering what's best, and just trying to do a decent job and not get sued, but it's very, very clear to me when a dentist is mining my mouth for gold, like when I'm offered an expensive cancer screening with a technology that I know is BS.
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Timely that this thread came up again: My old lady dog ate FIVE dark chocolate bars this morning while I was out doing the school run. Came home to find her hiding in shame near a pile of wrappers. She had eaten half a chocolate bar about a month ago with no ill effects, but I could see immediately that she wasn't well this time. She was shaky; her eyes looked entirely too wide and her pupils were entirely too small.
I got her in the car and called the vet on the way. Luckily, it was soon enough that they were able to clear her stomach and give her charcoal, and she's spending the day on fluids in the doggy hospital; I'll pick her up tonight.
The vet said in addition to the chocolate bars (which were in a bag on the counter with some other food I had been planning to take to work today), she had apparently eaten a half-sandwich with pickles (my son's un-eaten lunch from yesterday), the Ziploc bag the sandwich was in, a butter wrapper, and some other random things that weren't food at all.
I love that girl but DAMN she is expensive. She eats from the compost pile; she eats from the litter box; she eats mystery things she finds on walks and swallows them so fast I can't even figure out what they are.
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Sorry to hear it. Pet expenses suck. That's kind of the bottom line. You love them and don't want to let them die or suffer, but they are expensive.
The way I thought about it was to think about the expenses spread over their entire lives. Those $3k bills aren't as painful when you think about them as $100 or whatever a month for 15 years.
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So my friend in a suburb of Fort Worth just had a doggie dental for 349. If 2 metropolitan areas in different parts of the country can do it that cheap then the west coast is gouging.
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So my friend in a suburb of Fort Worth just had a doggie dental for 349. If 2 metropolitan areas in different parts of the country can do it that cheap then the west coast is gouging.
I'm still utterly baffled by this math. How little are these vets charging for anesthesia??
Dental is a long procedure. I just can't wrap my mind around this being profitable.
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I generally only take my animals to rural vets because their overhead is much lower so their recommendations aren't motivated as much by a need to cover their high monthly bills.
That's also been my approach in the past. Look for someone who does large animal work (livestock) as well as small animal, and they usually have a very different approach than an urban pet vet.
There are also some things that any normal person can do to save money, and I've found this book helpful: https://www.amazon.com/Afford-Veterinary-Care-Without-Mortgaging/dp/0977702707 You can order and administer all of your own vaccinations except rabies, for example, and you can buy ivermectin from the farm store and measure it out instead of buying Heartguard.
In general, I'm of the camp that pet care is one of the things I have money to do, and I owe it to the animal that I brought home to give them the best life I can. I'm not going to put down an animal or let it suffer for financial reasons. However, some treatments, like chemo, are paths I'm not going down because my experience has been that they don't really lead to the animal reliably recovering, and often prolong suffering. The late-in-life decisions are very, very hard, even without thinking about money.
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@Malcat, that story about Winky gave me the warm and fuzzies.
Our rescue Chihuahua mix was old when we adopted her 3 years ago. We don't know how old.
But as typical for an old, small dog - she's got bad teeth, and a heart murmur (on medication), and she had a hernia. The hernia fix was not permanent, so after we'd had her for only 4 months she needed a $6000 surgery. (She actually ended up getting the surgery a day early because she had an emergency hernia problem - literally 2 days before the scheduled surgery).
But I figure, we have buckets of money - if anyone is going to adopt a small, cranky, overprotective dog who hates other dogs and needs expensive treatment? It should be us. We've got money and she's small enough to pick up when she gets barking at other dogs, and we are homebodies.
On the teeth cleaning - out Vet recommended it, but suggested we see the doggie cardiologist first, to make sure it's safe to put her under because "her teeth are bad enough that she needs to go under". So, this leads me to believe that anesthesia is not required for all cleanings. In any event, the cardiologist said "well, there will never be a better time" and "with her heart, she probably has only 2 years left". So, she can just survive with bad teeth. We've given her a great retirement.
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@Malcat, that story about Winky gave me the warm and fuzzies.
Our rescue Chihuahua mix was old when we adopted her 3 years ago. We don't know how old.
But as typical for an old, small dog - she's got bad teeth, and a heart murmur (on medication), and she had a hernia. The hernia fix was not permanent, so after we'd had her for only 4 months she needed a $6000 surgery. (She actually ended up getting the surgery a day early because she had an emergency hernia problem - literally 2 days before the scheduled surgery).
But I figure, we have buckets of money - if anyone is going to adopt a small, cranky, overprotective dog who hates other dogs and needs expensive treatment? It should be us. We've got money and she's small enough to pick up when she gets barking at other dogs, and we are homebodies.
On the teeth cleaning - out Vet recommended it, but suggested we see the doggie cardiologist first, to make sure it's safe to put her under because "her teeth are bad enough that she needs to go under". So, this leads me to believe that anesthesia is not required for all cleanings. In any event, the cardiologist said "well, there will never be a better time" and "with her heart, she probably has only 2 years left". So, she can just survive with bad teeth. We've given her a great retirement.
Thiiiiiis makes sense.
Yes, anesthesia is needed for all pet dental cleaning, but it isn't for more superficial surface cleanings. Vets don't offer those here the same way dentists don't offer just a "polish" as a dental cleaning here.
The only places that offer superficial cleanings, for about $250 are some groomers.
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I have never known a dog to have a dental without being put under. How long does a cleaning take?
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I have never known a dog to have a dental without being put under. How long does a cleaning take?
Incidentally I've been there for one of my dog's cleanings while he was under and it took quite awhile. It's not a short procedure.
However, the groomers who do conscious "cleanings" are just doing the crowns of the teeth, and do it much quicker.
I do this for my animals. I have professional dental scalers and know how to use them and I scale my dogs and cat's teeth once or twice a year. It is NOT the same as a proper dental cleaning, but it dramatically helps delay the time between professional cleanings.
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@Malcat, that story about Winky gave me the warm and fuzzies.
Our rescue Chihuahua mix was old when we adopted her 3 years ago. We don't know how old.
But as typical for an old, small dog - she's got bad teeth, and a heart murmur (on medication), and she had a hernia. The hernia fix was not permanent, so after we'd had her for only 4 months she needed a $6000 surgery. (She actually ended up getting the surgery a day early because she had an emergency hernia problem - literally 2 days before the scheduled surgery).
But I figure, we have buckets of money - if anyone is going to adopt a small, cranky, overprotective dog who hates other dogs and needs expensive treatment? It should be us. We've got money and she's small enough to pick up when she gets barking at other dogs, and we are homebodies.
On the teeth cleaning - out Vet recommended it, but suggested we see the doggie cardiologist first, to make sure it's safe to put her under because "her teeth are bad enough that she needs to go under". So, this leads me to believe that anesthesia is not required for all cleanings. In any event, the cardiologist said "well, there will never be a better time" and "with her heart, she probably has only 2 years left". So, she can just survive with bad teeth. We've given her a great retirement.
Thiiiiiis makes sense.
Yes, anesthesia is needed for all pet dental cleaning, but it isn't for more superficial surface cleanings. Vets don't offer those here the same way dentists don't offer just a "polish" as a dental cleaning here.
The only places that offer superficial cleanings, for about $250 are some groomers.
I've only known one veterinarian who offered anesthesia-free dental cleanings... they're generally pretty frowned upon, because they miss out on the primary benefits of veterinary dentistry (cleaning below the gumline and the ability to perform a thorough oral exam).
I have, however, worked for a number of vets who offered $350 dentals. Those practices don't make any money on those procedures, but the pets need them and that's often as much as clients will pay for. In some practices, the $350 dental is pretty bare bones and leaves out things like pre-anesthetic bloodwork, an IV catheter/fluids, and post-op pain meds. In many practices, however, the $350 dental includes everything (pre-surgical sedation, pre-anesthetic bloodwork, IV catheter, IV induction, intubation, inhalant anesthesia, anesthesia monitoring, dental scaling/polishing, vet evaluation, and post-procedure pain meds if indicated). In those charges, the only additional charges are dental x-rays and any needed extractions (plus nerve block, pain meds to go home, and and antibiotics). A $350 dental isn't profitable, but pets need dental care, owners are often to cheap to pay for it, and many veterinary practice owners are soft-hearted people who don't necessarily make the best financial choices.
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My friend in a suburb of Fort Worth has lots of money and doesn’t care about the cost. The vet knows her well because she rescues old Poms and always used to have 10. Now that she’s older she only has 6. She has been going there for 20 years and all the dogs get a yearly dental that includes everything. She never would allow a dental to be done without blood work, etc. She wants only the best for her dogs and has had expensive surgeries on older dogs.
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My very first bulldog developed a form of cancer found in this breed. She was only 5 years old. She had 3 surgeries and then I said “ enough” and we treated it with chemo. This treatment drug on for 2 years, and because it was pops of $hundreds at a time spread over long period, I didn’t know how much we were spending and it did not matter anyway.
She died after two years at age 7 which is middle aged for a bulldog. Total cost of treatment was around $3,000 in 1997 money.
I do not regret this at all because it was a good learning experience. I will never do anything like that again, and have not done it.
This was 25 years ago when only specialists did this kind of thing, and they did not have night or weekend hours. So I had to take off work during the day, and that was tedious.
Anyway, I have since developed general guidelines which are:
* comfort care is our overall plan
* blood panels are fine to diagnose, but I will not necessarily TREAT the pet
* ongoing invasive care, chronic care, is not something I will do ( such as injections for diabetic cats)
* ongoing pilling of cats who fight with me every step of the way…will not do although I WILL force pills down their little gullets if it is a temporary treatment
* if the pet is an age that is good, great! No need to prolong it all
* euthanize while they are still reasonably themselves…I will not wait until they are in pain. My dogs have high pain thresholds, not gonna push that
I have learned that when a bulldog looks sick he is mere days from dying. I don’t like to wait that long.
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We just moved away from a general veterinary practice we had been going to for 30+ years. The old guy vets retired and their prices were so low it was insane. But then, their cheap cement block building had been paid for for decades and they didn’t replace equipment in later years as it went kerplunk, so their expenses were low.
The new vets who took it over were young female Docs. Prices went up, but not a lot.
Anyway…I say this to set the stage for how we used veterinary services in St. Louis. This vet practice was our basic vanilla service. These vets were always great in referring more complex issues to the region’s board certified specialists. My car knew it’s way to the surgery specialists and the skin specialist, and one time it visited the dental specialist. Never had to go to the eye specialist thank god because…
…we ALSO had in our veterinary service roster a vet in general practice who knew a lot about bulldogs, so they always performed the eye surgeries needed for bulldogs, performed them at generalist prices.
So we were pretty sophisticated users of veterinary services for dogs. My cats only got general vet care, never specialist care.Sorry, cats!
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@Malcat, that story about Winky gave me the warm and fuzzies.
Our rescue Chihuahua mix was old when we adopted her 3 years ago. We don't know how old.
But as typical for an old, small dog - she's got bad teeth, and a heart murmur (on medication), and she had a hernia. The hernia fix was not permanent, so after we'd had her for only 4 months she needed a $6000 surgery. (She actually ended up getting the surgery a day early because she had an emergency hernia problem - literally 2 days before the scheduled surgery).
But I figure, we have buckets of money - if anyone is going to adopt a small, cranky, overprotective dog who hates other dogs and needs expensive treatment? It should be us. We've got money and she's small enough to pick up when she gets barking at other dogs, and we are homebodies.
On the teeth cleaning - out Vet recommended it, but suggested we see the doggie cardiologist first, to make sure it's safe to put her under because "her teeth are bad enough that she needs to go under". So, this leads me to believe that anesthesia is not required for all cleanings. In any event, the cardiologist said "well, there will never be a better time" and "with her heart, she probably has only 2 years left". So, she can just survive with bad teeth. We've given her a great retirement.
Thiiiiiis makes sense.
Yes, anesthesia is needed for all pet dental cleaning, but it isn't for more superficial surface cleanings. Vets don't offer those here the same way dentists don't offer just a "polish" as a dental cleaning here.
The only places that offer superficial cleanings, for about $250 are some groomers.
I've only known one veterinarian who offered anesthesia-free dental cleanings... they're generally pretty frowned upon, because they miss out on the primary benefits of veterinary dentistry (cleaning below the gumline and the ability to perform a thorough oral exam).
I have, however, worked for a number of vets who offered $350 dentals. Those practices don't make any money on those procedures, but the pets need them and that's often as much as clients will pay for. In some practices, the $350 dental is pretty bare bones and leaves out things like pre-anesthetic bloodwork, an IV catheter/fluids, and post-op pain meds. In many practices, however, the $350 dental includes everything (pre-surgical sedation, pre-anesthetic bloodwork, IV catheter, IV induction, intubation, inhalant anesthesia, anesthesia monitoring, dental scaling/polishing, vet evaluation, and post-procedure pain meds if indicated). In those charges, the only additional charges are dental x-rays and any needed extractions (plus nerve block, pain meds to go home, and and antibiotics). A $350 dental isn't profitable, but pets need dental care, owners are often to cheap to pay for it, and many veterinary practice owners are soft-hearted people who don't necessarily make the best financial choices.
So basically I'm spot on.
This type of pricing doesn't make any sense from the perspective of actually running a business.
I have never met a vet who does this, so that's why it doesn't make sense to me. There are no vets here who will do a cleaning at cost, just like there are no dentists here who will do a cleaning at cost.
I'm fascinated to hear that so many people know of vets who will basically just not make money on their work because the animals need it. I wouldn't expect this to be all that common because I certainly don't see it in the human clinical world.
However, it might make sense of all of the vets out there who are struggling to make a decent living...
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@Malcat, that story about Winky gave me the warm and fuzzies.
Our rescue Chihuahua mix was old when we adopted her 3 years ago. We don't know how old.
But as typical for an old, small dog - she's got bad teeth, and a heart murmur (on medication), and she had a hernia. The hernia fix was not permanent, so after we'd had her for only 4 months she needed a $6000 surgery. (She actually ended up getting the surgery a day early because she had an emergency hernia problem - literally 2 days before the scheduled surgery).
But I figure, we have buckets of money - if anyone is going to adopt a small, cranky, overprotective dog who hates other dogs and needs expensive treatment? It should be us. We've got money and she's small enough to pick up when she gets barking at other dogs, and we are homebodies.
On the teeth cleaning - out Vet recommended it, but suggested we see the doggie cardiologist first, to make sure it's safe to put her under because "her teeth are bad enough that she needs to go under". So, this leads me to believe that anesthesia is not required for all cleanings. In any event, the cardiologist said "well, there will never be a better time" and "with her heart, she probably has only 2 years left". So, she can just survive with bad teeth. We've given her a great retirement.
Thiiiiiis makes sense.
Yes, anesthesia is needed for all pet dental cleaning, but it isn't for more superficial surface cleanings. Vets don't offer those here the same way dentists don't offer just a "polish" as a dental cleaning here.
The only places that offer superficial cleanings, for about $250 are some groomers.
I've only known one veterinarian who offered anesthesia-free dental cleanings... they're generally pretty frowned upon, because they miss out on the primary benefits of veterinary dentistry (cleaning below the gumline and the ability to perform a thorough oral exam).
I have, however, worked for a number of vets who offered $350 dentals. Those practices don't make any money on those procedures, but the pets need them and that's often as much as clients will pay for. In some practices, the $350 dental is pretty bare bones and leaves out things like pre-anesthetic bloodwork, an IV catheter/fluids, and post-op pain meds. In many practices, however, the $350 dental includes everything (pre-surgical sedation, pre-anesthetic bloodwork, IV catheter, IV induction, intubation, inhalant anesthesia, anesthesia monitoring, dental scaling/polishing, vet evaluation, and post-procedure pain meds if indicated). In those charges, the only additional charges are dental x-rays and any needed extractions (plus nerve block, pain meds to go home, and and antibiotics). A $350 dental isn't profitable, but pets need dental care, owners are often to cheap to pay for it, and many veterinary practice owners are soft-hearted people who don't necessarily make the best financial choices.
So basically I'm spot on.
This type of pricing doesn't make any sense from the perspective of actually running a business.
I have never met a vet who does this, so that's why it doesn't make sense to me. There are no vets here who will do a cleaning at cost, just like there are no dentists here who will do a cleaning at cost.
I'm fascinated to hear that so many people know of vets who will basically just not make money on their work because the animals need it. I wouldn't expect this to be all that common because I certainly don't see it in the human clinical world.
However, it might make sense of all of the vets out there who are struggling to make a decent living...
The current bulldog-knowledgeable vet performs his services super cheap for our rescue dogs. Some extensive complicated surgeries are so inexpensive I just shake my head.
When I have a foster dog I prefer to pay the vet bills for simple stuff since that is my contribution, although for surgery, our rescue organization picks up those costs again from this bulldog vet who has a long-standing relationship with our head of rescue.
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The current bulldog-knowledgeable vet performs his services super cheap for our rescue dogs. Some extensive complicated surgeries are so inexpensive I just shake my head.
When I have a foster dog I prefer to pay the vet bills for simple stuff since that is my contribution, although for surgery, our rescue organization picks up those costs again from this bulldog vet who has a long-standing relationship with our head of rescue.
Yes, I know of plenty of vets who donate their time for animal charities, just not for regular clients.
It's actually possible that it's not legal here to do that. Our healthcare is publicly funded, but our dental care is totally private and it's illegal here for a dentist to provide a discount to one patient and not all patients, unless they are doing non profit work.
It's possible that the vet colleges have the same policy. I have no idea, I've never done consulting for vets.
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I got hosed this trip to the vet, and I'm kicking myself.
One of my beloved cats is 17 and has been losing weight. He seems generally well, just can't keep weight on. He's already on a heart medication, which does seem to help him. I thought it might have something to do with his teeth-- it's been a while since he had a good cleaning and he has tended to have problems (needing teeth pulled, etc). Vet didn't want to put him out for a cleaning without running a broad array of tests ($170), so I said go ahead. Turns out cat's thyroid is too high, which makes perfect sense. But he ALSO tested positive for FIV and one of his kidney markers was slightly less than perfect. I was really upset; cat has been indoors for 14 years, so how he picked up FIV is a mystery to me. I picked up medications for all of this-- $182. Dutifully gave cat all these pills, and only THEN looked more closely at what they are.
Only the thyroid suppressant is an actual drug. The other two are literally just probiotics. One of which was NINETY-NINE dollars! Furious, I went into full research mode on the kidney numbers and trajectory of FIV-- basically, his kidney probably doesn't need treatment at all, and he's likely had FIV since I got him as a stray in 2008. He's had classic symptoms of it this entire time (gingivitis, runny eyes), but all his immune markers are still perfectly fine. And a goddamn probiotic certainly won't do a damn thing for either that or the kidney.
I'm extremely irritated with the vet for prescribing expensive remedies that probably won't do jack shit, and to boot, are drastically overpriced, and irritated with myself for only doing the research AFTER the purchase. I adore this cat-- I honestly had a full crying breakdown thinking about him having FIV. But like, a $99 probiotic??? Good freaking grief.
I'll give him the pills since I already bought them, but we're getting a different vet next time. Kitty loves yogurt-- he will go to extreme lengths to steal it from me-- so we can get his probiotics that way. No point in withholding simple pleasures from a cat who, if human, would be about 90 years old.
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I'm extremely irritated with the vet for prescribing expensive remedies that probably won't do jack shit, and to boot, are drastically overpriced, and irritated with myself for only doing the research AFTER the purchase. I adore this cat-- I honestly had a full crying breakdown thinking about him having FIV. But like, a $99 probiotic??? Good freaking grief.
That is extremely frustrating, definitely reflects some of the bad experiences I have had with vets. It is so hard to hold both opposing thoughts of this person went into this very difficult profession to help animals and this person may be actively trying to exploit my lack of medical knowledge to get money out of me and apply unneeded treatments in your head when in the office.
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Anyway, I have since developed general guidelines which are:
* comfort care is our overall plan
* blood panels are fine to diagnose, but I will not necessarily TREAT the pet
* ongoing invasive care, chronic care, is not something I will do ( such as injections for diabetic cats)
* ongoing pilling of cats who fight with me every step of the way…will not do although I WILL force pills down their little gullets if it is a temporary treatment
* if the pet is an age that is good, great! No need to prolong it all
* euthanize while they are still reasonably themselves…I will not wait until they are in pain. My dogs have high pain thresholds, not gonna push that
This is a pretty good list, but I have one anecdote that might be a counterpoint:
We had a cat that LOST HER MIND over being pilled or having liquid antibiotics administered; we could do it for 2-3 days, and then you were seriously risking life and limb if you tried for a full week. To make it worse, she was subject to frequent UTIs.
We asked the vet about other options, and she asked if we were willing to do injections; we decided to try it.
IT MADE EVERYTHING EASIER. We could hoist her up on the counter, pinch the skin, shove the needle in, push the plunger, and done. Total of 30 seconds, tops. AND NO DRAMA.
So I disagree with the "chronic" and "injections" part of your list, and wanted to offer a counterpoint.
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I've known more than one vet practice that had a "dental cleaning month" or similar, in which they have discounted cleanings. I don't know if they are discounted to low that they make no money, or just less. My assumption was that this was in part to attract business. Sort of like a loss leader at Walmart.
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One thing I really appreciate about my vet (which i've only been with for about 6 months, since I got my current Creatures) is that they actively encourage me to buy my meds elsewhere Dog 1 has elevated liver enzymes. Levels were higher than normal, but not so high that the doc thought we need to to do any of the Big Things. He recommended a daily supplement and said he'd be happy to sell it to me but I could get it much cheaper from Amazon or other online sources. he didn't even try to sell it to me, basically. It's still not cheap at about $1 per pill (one pill per day), but that's not really a consequential expense in our budget, either.
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Anyway, I have since developed general guidelines which are:
* comfort care is our overall plan
* blood panels are fine to diagnose, but I will not necessarily TREAT the pet
* ongoing invasive care, chronic care, is not something I will do ( such as injections for diabetic cats)
* ongoing pilling of cats who fight with me every step of the way…will not do although I WILL force pills down their little gullets if it is a temporary treatment
* if the pet is an age that is good, great! No need to prolong it all
* euthanize while they are still reasonably themselves…I will not wait until they are in pain. My dogs have high pain thresholds, not gonna push that
This is a pretty good list, but I have one anecdote that might be a counterpoint:
We had a cat that LOST HER MIND over being pilled or having liquid antibiotics administered; we could do it for 2-3 days, and then you were seriously risking life and limb if you tried for a full week. To make it worse, she was subject to frequent UTIs.
We asked the vet about other options, and she asked if we were willing to do injections; we decided to try it.
IT MADE EVERYTHING EASIER. We could hoist her up on the counter, pinch the skin, shove the needle in, push the plunger, and done. Total of 30 seconds, tops. AND NO DRAMA.
So I disagree with the "chronic" and "injections" part of your list, and wanted to offer a counterpoint.
That’s good, I could see me learning how to give injections,, I just have not done it on the regular.
Oh yes the crazed fighting cat time medication …ugh.
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Sadie, that is dumb of your vet to do that. I honestly cannot conceive of any of my veterinarians giving me expensive dumb shit like that.
This would make me mad enough to be looking into other veterinary clinics.
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The types of daily interventions I'm willing to do depend on the cat. I'll try just about any at-home treatment to see how it goes before deciding whether it's worth it or not for that particular cat.
My last cat had cancer and kidney disease. We could not pill her to save our lives, but she was fine with liquid nausea meds syringed into her mouth and subcutaneous fluids injected into her back. The few minutes of tolerated annoyance every day gave her good quality of life overall for months.
The vets wanted us to give her a daily chemo pill to keep the cancer at bay, too. But it could not be compounded into a liquid, so we had to decline. Ultimately, we put her down when the cancer metastasized to her lungs.
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The types of daily interventions I'm willing to do depend on the cat. I'll try just about any at-home treatment to see how it goes before deciding whether it's worth it or not for that particular cat.
My last cat had cancer and kidney disease. We could not pill her to save our lives, but she was fine with liquid nausea meds syringed into her mouth and subcutaneous fluids injected into her back. The few minutes of tolerated annoyance every day gave her good quality of life overall for months.
The vets wanted us to give her a daily chemo pill to keep the cancer at bay, too. But it could not be compounded into a liquid, so we had to decline. Ultimately, we put her down when the cancer metastasized to her lungs.
It was funny that we did treat a recent old cat with subcutaneous injections and she was a perfect patient. she was such an attention whore that she loved having mommy and daddy stand around her, fussing with her and petting her. She was 17 years old and had not bounced back from a dental cleaning, and then she had something else wrong with her which I no longer remember. these injections got her stabilized to continue on for a few more months but not long, really.
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Villanelle, what supplement did your vet suggest for the liver issue in your dog? My 5 year old dog has the same thing but the vet wants to redo blood work every 8 weeks.
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Not Villanelle, but my dog takes a liver supplement called Denamarin. It's S-adenosylmethionine 215 mg, silybin-phosphatidylcholine 235mg. Her liver enzymes got a bit out of whack after her chocotoxicosis adventure.
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Thanks Sadie! So took Amy to the vet today to get her anal gland expressed and the vet gave me a estimate for her dental. Last year they found a heart murmur and I did some expensive testing to make sure she was okay to be put under. This year’s dental had 797 in tests besides the 1100 dental. I sent a email asking if the tests were mandatory or recommended. When she listened to her heart she said that her heart sounded the same as last year.
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I'm dealing with a vet right now who refuses to renew my cat's thyroid medication unless she comes in for bloodwork on thyroid levels...EVERY TWO MONTHS! Insanity.
I also recently switched from a vet where no one in the office answered their email, despite posting email on their website. So instead, I need to take time out of my work day to play phone tag (and of course they refuse to schedule phone calls in advance). Bastards.
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I'm dealing with a vet right now who refuses to renew my cat's thyroid medication unless she comes in for bloodwork on thyroid levels...EVERY TWO MONTHS! Insanity.
I also recently switched from a vet where no one in the office answered their email, despite posting email on their website. So instead, I need to take time out of my work day to play phone tag (and of course they refuse to schedule phone calls in advance). Bastards.
Switch vets again. Once stabilized, you should be fine with every 6 months unless there's a concern. My vet wants a thyroid check every 6 months, but I get the sense he would let that slide if there was push back - he'd rather the cat get something rather than nothing. I have it on the calendar to do every 6 months.
Also, I prefer to get meds in bulk due to the hassle factor and I have no objection to getting meds through the vet (depends on the meds, but thyroid meds are cheap). I typically ask if I can get 2 or 3 months worth of pills and they have no problem. I think this last bottle was like 150 pills or something.
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Vet expenses are one of my major budget categories - and my pets are all in their senior years, so I have been dealing with lots of end-of-life care costs, in some cases related to cancer or degenerative auto-immune disease, more often chronic kidney failure.
I will have them put down when their quality of live is impacted to the extent that they stop eating and enjoy being active. But even at that stage meds and check-ups had increased. Dental surgery being the most prominent one. Fine for my more social and chilled pets that were eady to handle for vet visits - not possible for my remaining psychos and semi-ferals. That will probably play out with rare emergency check--ups and otherwise gut-based medication (as in playing around with dosage and/or pain-killers) and a sudden final fast ending.
I have a lot of experience now with aforementioned illnesses and a long-standing report with my vets so that I get any medication on request, even without frequent check-ups. But if there is clear signs of suffering, costs will not matter to me if it really substantially improve life quality. Otherwise, a supported death is preferable. At the end, it is my call, but I try to pick up the vibes of my pets ...