Author Topic: Vegetarianism  (Read 7356 times)

NextTime

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Vegetarianism
« on: April 17, 2020, 01:31:38 PM »
I come seeking advice from the resident vegan/vegetarian folk.

For a little over a year, my wife has been 99.9999% vegetarian (not vegan). It has helped immensely with her Rheumatoid Arthritis.
The kids and I have not been as hardcore as her, but we have drastically reduced our meat intake. We don't even keep meat in the fridge/freezer, except for some ground venison and maybe hot dogs once in awhile. Neither of us are great cooks, nor do we enjoy cooking. So we really haven't had a decent meal prepping plan through this experience.  We've eaten a lot of beans, lentils, and rice. A lot of fresh veges like bell peppers, greens, carrots, etc. We usually have fish once or twice a week. I'd really like to find a way to make decent meals that taste good. 

I'm at the point where I want to do a little more research into this. Problem is, there is so much information/disinformation out there, I really don't know what to believe. I've read several accounts telling you to stay away from nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, eggplant, bell peppers), especially for those with Rheumatoid Arthritis. That cuts out quite a few of the colorful vegetables I thought were supposed to be good for you, and a lot of what we eat regularly. Then I see other articles that say lectins are bad for you. Well there goes beans and lentils and pretty much the rest of our diet. So I'm thoroughly confused at this point.

This may sound like ranting, and it partly is, but I'd really like to know how the vegetarians on here filter out the bs and decide which information to trust. What is healthy and what isn't?

bacchi

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 01:47:29 PM »
If I read a blog strongly advocating for or against something, I'll first look for a study at NIH or similar. It's even better if I can find more than one or a meta-study.

Here's one about fruits and arthritis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5788027/

It sounds all good but note in the conclusion that fruit juices are not the same as whole fruit.

Re: Lectins, and arthritis is mentioned (but there's not a definitive connection): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gut-microbes-linked-rheumatoid-arthritis

Or trust a blog/site from Mayo or some other reputable site.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/arthritis-should-you-avoid-nightshade-vegetables/

Quote from: clevelandclinic
But it is highly unlikely that avoiding the trace amounts of solanine found in nightshade vegetables will ease your arthritic pain or inflammation. Research to support this claim just isn’t there.

erutio

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2020, 02:01:54 PM »
... It has helped immensely with her Rheumatoid Arthritis...


You already have the answer to your own question.

diapasoun

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2020, 02:18:07 PM »
Does your wife feel better eating lots of nightshades and lectins than she does eating more meat/etc?

If so, awesome. That's what matters.

Like has been noted -- the science is not all there on the effects of diet on RA. She, and you, should eat what makes you feel good.

For recipes: budgetbytes has plenty of vegetarian recipes that are delicious and cost-effective; that's a great starting resource.

parkerk

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2020, 02:42:17 PM »
I'd really like to know how the vegetarians on here filter out the bs and decide which information to trust.

I... don't?  I mean, I try not to listen to health information from the internet.  If you're looking for information on what foods are good or bad for a specific health problem the first stop I'd recommend is a doctor or a registered dietitian.  You can look for one who specifically supports vegetarian diets.  Literally the only internet food advice I'd take is from Canada's Food Guide, which has a wonderfully succinct landing page:  https://food-guide.canada.ca/en/

But if you're looking for quality, in-depth, well-researched recommendations on the internet, I would, again, recommend "don't."  There are just so many conflicting things out there even among reputable sources.  You say it's already helped your wife's arthritis immensely.  Great!  That's super awesome.  As long as she's feeling good, that's what matters.  If she's concerned about how her eating may affect her health and symptoms it would probably be more effective to keep track of what she eats and look back for any patterns if she notices that she's having problems. 

(Anecdotally, I know two different people who've successfully controlled type 2 diabetes through diet for years.  One's on whole foods plant based, the other's doing an ultra low carb keto.  Bodies gonna body, man.)

For me personally I have no health problems on a diet that's basically 95% "anything non-animal."  I eat a variety of veggies, fruits, grains, lentils, beans, tofu, nuts, fake meats, junk food...  Now, I'm otherwise healthy so ymmv but for most people you're good to go by just eating lots of different things.

And if you're looking for easy, cheap, tasty vegetarian and vegan meals go to budgetbytes.com right now.  NOW.  Do it.  She's got a ton of veggie recipes as well as meat stuff that's often easily made vegetarian.  Her website is my absolute favourite go-to when I'm wondering what to make for dinner. 

MayDay

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2020, 06:30:28 AM »
Our entire family is vegetarian. I started in college because meat is gross, then we just didn't really cool meat for the kids, and H slowly converted over time for health reasons.

We try to do the following:
-eat a variety of things
-eat whole grains
-eat less processed stuff (like fake meat)
-reduce sugar

That's basically it. We eat tofu, beans and dairy for protein.

Our meal planning looks something like this on a typical week:

1. Tacos (with beans)
2. Rice and beans (various toppings, could be a grain other than rice)
3. Pizza (h is allergic to cheese so his just has veggies)
4. Pasta of some kind (often just plain tomato sauce, sometimes something more involved like pad Thai)
5. Soup (usually bean and vegetables in the Crock-Pot)
6. Leftovers
7. Something the kids pick out like Mac and cheese, and big salads for the adults
8. Baked tofu + french fries or onion rings or something like that

We aren't fancy cooks, and we both work FT so we go for quick and reasonably healthy. We usually have a frozen veggie with it in the winter, and more fresh veggies in the summer.

OtherJen

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2020, 07:45:28 AM »
Honestly, if she's improved that immensely even while eating nightshades and legumes, I wouldn't worry about it. Some people are intolerant to them, but she probably isn't.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2020, 10:14:16 AM »
20+ year vegan here. I generally assume anything telling you not to eat vegetables is total bullshit. The "avoid nightshades!" thing in particular flies in the face of tons of long-established research indicating the Mediterranean diet is one of the best in terms of most health outcomes, and it happens to be loaded with nightshades and legumes. Similarly, the seventh-day adventist-style eating which is basically the Mediterranean diet minus fish, and also leads to great health outcomes and long life expectancy.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2020, 11:49:47 AM »
I'm not actually sure what you are asking.

Some people react to certain types of foods and benefit from not eating them. If someone is potentially reacting to foods, the best approach is to start a regimented elimination diet, systematically reintroduce each type of food and document closely how their body reacts.

It takes time, and is a bit of a pain in ass, but it works extremely well and the resulting diet isn't based on someone trying to sell a book.

I don't think there are any given food groups that are good and bad, just individual people who react poorly to certain foods.


GreenSheep

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2020, 02:48:40 PM »
I eat a whole food, plants-only diet, going on 5 years now. I look and feel better than ever, and I enjoy food more than ever.

The people I do NOT listen to are those who are selling supplements. If it seems like they're pushing a certain diet so they can inspire enough concern to get you to buy their snake oil, then they're probably not legitimate.

I use the following resources for nutrition information because:

-They all seem to be in agreement on what's healthy.
-They all have personal experience in seeing this information benefit real, live patients over the course of several decades.
-They're all members of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine (from their website, their definition of lifestyle medicine is "the use of evidence-based lifestyle therapeutic approaches, such as a whole food, plant-predominant dietary lifestyle... for treatment and reversal of chronic disease.")
-They are all on the editorial advisory board of the International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention (ijdrp.org)

Dr. Michael Greger - nutritionfacts.org and his books "How Not to Die" and "How Not to Diet" and his podcast
Dr. John McDougall - drmcdougall.com and his many books
Dr. Neal Barnard - pcrm.org and many books and PCRM's excellent podcast "The Exam Room"
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn - author of "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease" and patriarch of the Esselstyn family of WFPB proponents (daughter Jane has a YouTube cooking channel with her adorable mom Ann, son Rip has an immersion program and line of foods called Engine2, available at Whole Foods)

None of these men are perfect. Dr. Greger is a goofy nerd, though in the most lovable way. Dr. McDougall can be very harsh, but some people need that. But they all mean well and have good information to share, and since they're all saying the same thing, you can go with whoever's delivery method resonates best with you. And they are real people who weren't born with a kale leaf in their mouths. Dr. Esselstyn grew up on a cattle farm, and Dr. Barnard had several extended family members with dairy farms.

As for the "how" -- I love to cook and can happily spend all day in the kitchen, but for those who want a much simpler approach, there is a relatively new YouTube channel called "Plantiful Kiki" that shows you how to make this extremely simple. Dr. McDougall's website also has lots of recipes by his wife Mary which are very straightforward.

NextTime

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2020, 06:01:58 PM »
Thank you all for the great information. 
She has felt much better since the switch, nightshades and all.

I will definitely have to check out some of those podcasts/books/websites mentioned.

@MayDay minus the tofu, that is pretty much what our weekly meal plan looks like, minus the tofu (if you call what we do planning).


Ecky

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2020, 01:48:11 PM »
Vegan for around 8 years and doing great.

Lots of good advice here, especially (in my opinion) GreenSheep's.

The general rules I follow when eating are:

1) Minimize processed foods, maximize whole foods.
2) Eat a large variety of foods.
3) Reduce sugar, especially processed sugar.
4) Reduce what doesn't agree with me personally.

I find I thrive on a diet heavy in oily foods. My wife doesn't handle (some) oils as well. We typically cook with low oil and I add oily items (olives, nuts, avocados) to my plate separately.

We pay attention to some vitamins/nutrients specifically. E.g. trying to have a favorable omega3/6 balance, take a B12 supplement occasionally, and vitamin D during the gloomy months.

Yesterday's meals were:

Breakfast - Steel cut oats in unsweetened soy milk with chia seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts and some sliced banana
Lunch - Leftover Korean spicy soft tofu stew (made with homemade kimchi)
Dinner - Lasagna, made with a cashew ricotta + eggplant, and a large salad with a homemade Caesar dressing

We also went foraging for some wild leeks to add to whatever we eat tonight.

OtherJen

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2020, 05:59:27 PM »
Thank you all for the great information. 
She has felt much better since the switch, nightshades and all.

I will definitely have to check out some of those podcasts/books/websites mentioned.

@MayDay minus the tofu, that is pretty much what our weekly meal plan looks like, minus the tofu (if you call what we do planning).

Excellent! It sounds like she isn’t intolerant to nightshades. Tofu is a good source of iron. Does she not like it? We eat it in stir-fries and as a paneer substitute in curries.

Ecky’s post just reminded me that our regular oatmeal breakfast is vegan. I cook rolled oats on the stovetop with cinnamon and a pinch of salt. When they’re cooked, I mix in 2 tablespoons of natural peanut butter (the kind that is just peanuts and salt) per serving, and we each add maple syrup to taste.

schoenbauer

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2020, 08:10:49 AM »
Congratulations on lowering your meat intake! That in itself is already a very healthy choice.

I'm 95% vegan for the past 2 years and the health benefits are a no-brainer.

Also, the environmental impact of a plant-based dish is approx. eight times smaller! I don't understand why people still consume animal products (think health/environment/ethics). Happy eating!

NextTime

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2020, 08:54:08 AM »
Thank you all for the great information. 
She has felt much better since the switch, nightshades and all.

I will definitely have to check out some of those podcasts/books/websites mentioned.

@MayDay minus the tofu, that is pretty much what our weekly meal plan looks like, minus the tofu (if you call what we do planning).

Excellent! It sounds like she isn’t intolerant to nightshades. Tofu is a good source of iron. Does she not like it? We eat it in stir-fries and as a paneer substitute in curries.

Ecky’s post just reminded me that our regular oatmeal breakfast is vegan. I cook rolled oats on the stovetop with cinnamon and a pinch of salt. When they’re cooked, I mix in 2 tablespoons of natural peanut butter (the kind that is just peanuts and salt) per serving, and we each add maple syrup to taste.


We really just haven't experimented with tofu I guess.  I've had tofu several times before. I don't love it, but I don't hate it, except when it's cut into big chunks like some college Chinese friends used to prepare it. The texture is very off putting to me. Maybe we should give it a try.

Being from South America, my wife grew up on beans, rice, and lentils. So we eat them quite frequently. Neither one of us are big fans of cooking, which is why we haven't been very adventurous up to this point.

NextTime

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2020, 08:58:56 AM »
Congratulations on lowering your meat intake! That in itself is already a very healthy choice.

I'm 95% vegan for the past 2 years and the health benefits are a no-brainer.

Also, the environmental impact of a plant-based dish is approx. eight times smaller! I don't understand why people still consume animal products (think health/environment/ethics). Happy eating!


Because meat is delicious!  There's nothing better than a big, fat, juicy, properly cooked steak.
And assuming you aren't big into cooking, it is difficult to get used to cooking without meat.  And if you are vegan, giving up milk and cheese make it damn near impossible.

My wife tried going vegan for a few weeks, but we just can't give up real cheese.  We've tried many of the alternatives, and they just don't measure up.
I don't think I can give up eggs either.

Metalcat

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2020, 10:03:27 AM »
Congratulations on lowering your meat intake! That in itself is already a very healthy choice.

I'm 95% vegan for the past 2 years and the health benefits are a no-brainer.

Also, the environmental impact of a plant-based dish is approx. eight times smaller! I don't understand why people still consume animal products (think health/environment/ethics). Happy eating!


Because meat is delicious!  There's nothing better than a big, fat, juicy, properly cooked steak.
And assuming you aren't big into cooking, it is difficult to get used to cooking without meat.  And if you are vegan, giving up milk and cheese make it damn near impossible.

My wife tried going vegan for a few weeks, but we just can't give up real cheese.  We've tried many of the alternatives, and they just don't measure up.
I don't think I can give up eggs either.

It is difficult if you try to replace things.

When I switched us from daily meat eaters to vegetarian, it actually took DH a few months to notice, because I completely switched up the style of food I was making.

It used to be a piece of meat with a side of lightly stir fried veggies. Trying to recreate that vegetarian would have meant something like tofu, which neither of us likes. It would have been a sad version of what we used to eat.

Instead, it was suddenly aromatic curries, hearty soups, chilis, baked casseroles, spicy noodles, etc, etc.

I used to love steak, but after not eating it regularly for a few years, it just doesn't interest me much. I still eat meat at restaurants, but I rarely order beef as I've kind of lost a taste for it. Oddly, the meat I sometimes crave is chicken, which I used to think was so boring. The only beef I actively want to eat now is burgers, which we get twice a year.

jamesbond007

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2020, 12:22:46 PM »
Been a vegetarian my whole life. Being from India we have vegetarians for religious reasons. Been living in the states for about 20 years now and I have never eaten any kind of meat. Take all the studies with a grain of salt. For those studies to come true, you would have to eat a LOT of those offending vegetables. For example, someone told me that eating cruciferous vegetables leads to hypo thyroid related complications due to the presence of Isothiocyanates. Then I did some digging. All these studies were based on 1 woman who got hypo thyroid disorder in China when she ate about 2lb of Bok Choy every day for about 2 months or something like that. You'd never eat like that if you were normal. So, I say, don't worry and enjoy the colors.

I know you did not say or ask anything, but I see a lot of people complain that vegetables don't taste good. And the American diet doesn't help to address that, as Vegetarian food in America is mostly eating salad which sucks. Look into recipes in India cooking for vegetarian food. Not saying because I am Indian but, IMO, Indian food is the best if you want to be a vegetarian.

GreenSheep

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2020, 12:28:48 PM »
It is difficult if you try to replace things.

Sorry, this is a wall of text. I'll bold a few things to make it less awful to read. Also, I hope this doesn't come across as vegan-preachy. I really don't mean for it to seem that way. I just get very excited about this stuff when someone says they're leaning in this direction. Even if you change your diet just a tiny bit and see a positive effect, that's a win. :-)

The above is so true. It really helps to stop thinking of it in terms of deprivation and just think of all the great things you CAN have instead. And more than that, think of all the benefits to your health, the animals, and the environment. The food is also much less dense in calories, so you get to eat more! :-) In fact, a pitfall that new vegans sometimes encounter is feeling weak because they don't realize they really need to eat what visually seems to be a huge amount of food compared to what they were eating before.

Some people do use "replacement foods" like mock meats, but many of us didn't/don't. Most people I've spoken to, or whose blogs I've read, or whatever, say their diet is MUCH more varied and interesting now that they don't use any animal products. I went to a week-long live-in vacation thing one time, and they provided every meal for us. I was the only vegan there. After a few days of tofu in some form at EVERY MEAL, 3 times a day, I finally had to tell the poor chef that really, I was perfectly happy just eating the rest of the food, without the tofu. He always made beautiful bean dishes, grains, salads, etc. There was no need to add tofu, but he just felt like something had to replace the slab of meat everyone else was getting.

Foods from other cultures are a great way to get ideas and, like Malkynn said, to distract yourself from your usual meals with delicious alternatives so that you don't notice what's missing. I love Indian, Thai, and Mexican foods in particular. Thevegan8.com has recipes that include only 8 ingredients (quick and easy!), and she lives in Texas, so she does a lot of TexMex kind of stuff. Also, laylita.com is written by a woman who was raised in Ecuador, and although the blog is not vegan/vegetarian, she has a lot of recipes that happen to be vegan/vegetarian. Veganricha.com has amazing Indian food. She does non-Indian recipes, too, but I think her Indian ones really shine.

Maybe if you could give us some idea of why you and your wife don't like to cook, the rest of us could help you with that? Is it the time? The monotony of chopping stuff? The fear that something new won't taste good and then your efforts will be wasted? The fact that you just don't care about fancy schmancy dishes? The cleanup process? I'm convinced that there is a method of cooking for everyone. You might not ever love cooking, and that's okay, but you can find a way to feed yourself and your family that makes you happy.

My husband isn't a fan of tofu, either, but he likes tempeh, and he loves soy curls. Both contain only soy beans, and they are not textured vegetable protein, which is very processed and considered unhealthy by most nutrition experts. You can find tempeh in most grocery stores (pre-seasoned, pre-cooked or not), and you can get soy curls from Amazon or from butlerfoods.com.

As for cheese, you might find Dr. Neal Barnard's book "The Cheese Trap" interesting. Many people have a hard time getting it out of their diet, and that's partly because it contains an addictive chemical (meant to entice babies, of any species, to keep going back for more milk from Mom so they don't die of starvation, but when you concentrate it into a cheese, it's a whole different level of "enticing"). I haven't found a commercial cheese substitute I like, but my mom likes some of the Kite Hill products. They're expensive, though. My favorite homemade cheese is the one in "Wicked Healthy" by Chad and Derek Sarno:
https://wickedhealthyfood.com/2014/12/20/wicked-healthy-base-cheez-sauce/
I've also heard very good things about Plantiful Kiki's cheese sauce (search her YouTube channel), so I'm going to try that, too. The Wicked Healthy one makes something like 10 cups, so I put it into ice cube trays and freeze it, then toss the cubes in a bag so I can just take out what I want for pasta, vegetables, etc. For me, putting my freezer to work is how I keep making awesome meals without spending all day in the kitchen every day.

OtherJen

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2020, 12:48:32 PM »
Chiming in to agree with the above poster that tempeh is very good. It has a different texture and flavor than tofu, and your wife may find it more appealing.

Metalcat

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2020, 12:54:08 PM »
^^good point, when I switched to vegetarian, within a few weeks, it was highly evident that I wasn't eating enough calories. I just wasn't used to the volume of food I needed to eat because it wasn't as calorie dense.

I don't cook strictly vegan, probably about 60%, but the main non vegan component is eggs. I use dairy quite rarely in my dishes. I adore eggs though.

parkerk

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2020, 01:40:33 PM »
Look into recipes in India cooking for vegetarian food. Not saying because I am Indian but, IMO, Indian food is the best if you want to be a vegetarian.

Even as a non-Indian I absolutely second this! 

NextTime

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2020, 02:07:24 PM »
Been a vegetarian my whole life. Being from India we have vegetarians for religious reasons. Been living in the states for about 20 years now and I have never eaten any kind of meat. Take all the studies with a grain of salt. For those studies to come true, you would have to eat a LOT of those offending vegetables. For example, someone told me that eating cruciferous vegetables leads to hypo thyroid related complications due to the presence of Isothiocyanates. Then I did some digging. All these studies were based on 1 woman who got hypo thyroid disorder in China when she ate about 2lb of Bok Choy every day for about 2 months or something like that. You'd never eat like that if you were normal. So, I say, don't worry and enjoy the colors.

I know you did not say or ask anything, but I see a lot of people complain that vegetables don't taste good. And the American diet doesn't help to address that, as Vegetarian food in America is mostly eating salad which sucks. Look into recipes in India cooking for vegetarian food. Not saying because I am Indian but, IMO, Indian food is the best if you want to be a vegetarian.


You don't have to convince me buddy. Indian food is by far my favorite cuisine, followed by Thai.

NextTime

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2020, 02:34:53 PM »
It is difficult if you try to replace things.

Sorry, this is a wall of text. I'll bold a few things to make it less awful to read. Also, I hope this doesn't come across as vegan-preachy. I really don't mean for it to seem that way. I just get very excited about this stuff when someone says they're leaning in this direction. Even if you change your diet just a tiny bit and see a positive effect, that's a win. :-)

The above is so true. It really helps to stop thinking of it in terms of deprivation and just think of all the great things you CAN have instead. And more than that, think of all the benefits to your health, the animals, and the environment. The food is also much less dense in calories, so you get to eat more! :-) In fact, a pitfall that new vegans sometimes encounter is feeling weak because they don't realize they really need to eat what visually seems to be a huge amount of food compared to what they were eating before.

Some people do use "replacement foods" like mock meats, but many of us didn't/don't. Most people I've spoken to, or whose blogs I've read, or whatever, say their diet is MUCH more varied and interesting now that they don't use any animal products. I went to a week-long live-in vacation thing one time, and they provided every meal for us. I was the only vegan there. After a few days of tofu in some form at EVERY MEAL, 3 times a day, I finally had to tell the poor chef that really, I was perfectly happy just eating the rest of the food, without the tofu. He always made beautiful bean dishes, grains, salads, etc. There was no need to add tofu, but he just felt like something had to replace the slab of meat everyone else was getting.

Foods from other cultures are a great way to get ideas and, like Malkynn said, to distract yourself from your usual meals with delicious alternatives so that you don't notice what's missing. I love Indian, Thai, and Mexican foods in particular. Thevegan8.com has recipes that include only 8 ingredients (quick and easy!), and she lives in Texas, so she does a lot of TexMex kind of stuff. Also, laylita.com is written by a woman who was raised in Ecuador, and although the blog is not vegan/vegetarian, she has a lot of recipes that happen to be vegan/vegetarian. Veganricha.com has amazing Indian food. She does non-Indian recipes, too, but I think her Indian ones really shine.

Maybe if you could give us some idea of why you and your wife don't like to cook, the rest of us could help you with that? Is it the time? The monotony of chopping stuff? The fear that something new won't taste good and then your efforts will be wasted? The fact that you just don't care about fancy schmancy dishes? The cleanup process? I'm convinced that there is a method of cooking for everyone. You might not ever love cooking, and that's okay, but you can find a way to feed yourself and your family that makes you happy.

My husband isn't a fan of tofu, either, but he likes tempeh, and he loves soy curls. Both contain only soy beans, and they are not textured vegetable protein, which is very processed and considered unhealthy by most nutrition experts. You can find tempeh in most grocery stores (pre-seasoned, pre-cooked or not), and you can get soy curls from Amazon or from butlerfoods.com.

As for cheese, you might find Dr. Neal Barnard's book "The Cheese Trap" interesting. Many people have a hard time getting it out of their diet, and that's partly because it contains an addictive chemical (meant to entice babies, of any species, to keep going back for more milk from Mom so they don't die of starvation, but when you concentrate it into a cheese, it's a whole different level of "enticing"). I haven't found a commercial cheese substitute I like, but my mom likes some of the Kite Hill products. They're expensive, though. My favorite homemade cheese is the one in "Wicked Healthy" by Chad and Derek Sarno:
https://wickedhealthyfood.com/2014/12/20/wicked-healthy-base-cheez-sauce/
I've also heard very good things about Plantiful Kiki's cheese sauce (search her YouTube channel), so I'm going to try that, too. The Wicked Healthy one makes something like 10 cups, so I put it into ice cube trays and freeze it, then toss the cubes in a bag so I can just take out what I want for pasta, vegetables, etc. For me, putting my freezer to work is how I keep making awesome meals without spending all day in the kitchen every day.


Thanks for the good info.

Time is probably the main reason I don't enjoy cooking. Working full time jobs with two small children take up the majority of our time.




DarkandStormy

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2020, 02:41:47 PM »
I come seeking advice from the resident vegan/vegetarian folk.

For a little over a year, my wife has been 99.9999% vegetarian (not vegan). It has helped immensely with her Rheumatoid Arthritis.
The kids and I have not been as hardcore as her, but we have drastically reduced our meat intake. We don't even keep meat in the fridge/freezer, except for some ground venison and maybe hot dogs once in awhile. Neither of us are great cooks, nor do we enjoy cooking. So we really haven't had a decent meal prepping plan through this experience.  We've eaten a lot of beans, lentils, and rice. A lot of fresh veges like bell peppers, greens, carrots, etc. We usually have fish once or twice a week. I'd really like to find a way to make decent meals that taste good. 

I'm at the point where I want to do a little more research into this. Problem is, there is so much information/disinformation out there, I really don't know what to believe. I've read several accounts telling you to stay away from nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, eggplant, bell peppers), especially for those with Rheumatoid Arthritis. That cuts out quite a few of the colorful vegetables I thought were supposed to be good for you, and a lot of what we eat regularly. Then I see other articles that say lectins are bad for you. Well there goes beans and lentils and pretty much the rest of our diet. So I'm thoroughly confused at this point.

This may sound like ranting, and it partly is, but I'd really like to know how the vegetarians on here filter out the bs and decide which information to trust. What is healthy and what isn't?

You kind of hit the nail on the head in terms of "mainstream" advice.  Keto/Adkins is the latest craze, a few years ago it was "juicing," and I'm sure another fad diet will come along and people will claim it's the "magic cure."

Everyone reacts differently to different foods.  There honestly hasn't been a ton of studies on varies diets/foods, but almost ALL of them to say at least cut out processed foods.

If vegetarian has worked for you all (or, most notably, your wife) then great! I'd still be checking in with the doctor every so often to check on HDL/LDL, glucose, triglycerides, etc.

A lot of the accounts of "I avoided X and Y went away" are anecdotal.  If your wife thinks avoiding nightshades might help even more, then help her avoid them for a week or two and notice any changes.  But for some people, it doesn't make a difference.

You may also want to check out the Blue Zone cookbook - the author supposedly found five communities around the world with some of the longest lifespans and lowest rates of heart disease, dementia, etc.  It's an entirely plant-based recipe book but he starts off with several pages of why he started the research, what he found, and easily digestable advice.  Just a thought.  Could help you all with meal planning.

My wife and I are fully vegan and do our best to eat whole foods.  We'll fire up the Instant Pot to make a grain (rice, kamut, barley, kasha, etc.), sauté or roast some vegetables, and then swap out the Instant Pot liner for our backup and do a bean/legume as well.  That gets us meals for about 3-4 days.  Pretty easy, minimal chopping involved on the veggies.  We also have a bunch of cookbooks so just give me a shout if you want some ideas.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2020, 02:46:34 PM »
I know you did not say or ask anything, but I see a lot of people complain that vegetables don't taste good. And the American diet doesn't help to address that, as Vegetarian food in America is mostly eating salad which sucks. Look into recipes in India cooking for vegetarian food. Not saying because I am Indian but, IMO, Indian food is the best if you want to be a vegetarian.

A lot of American food *out* is basically a salad, unless you specifically go to a place with plant-based options.  You can use the website or app Happy Cow (happycow.net) to find restaurants with plant-based offerings.

The American diet / culture does not lend itself to spices very well.  If you're doing any cooking at home, get good spices!

We've found the best plant-based dishes come from non-American cultures - Indian, Japanese, Mediterranean, Mexican, etc.

the_gastropod

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2020, 03:17:49 PM »
Then I see other articles that say lectins are bad for you. Well there goes beans and lentils and pretty much the rest of our diet. So I'm thoroughly confused at this point.

Ahhhh, I used to have a boss who was into the Paleo/Keto diet thing, and would lecture me about lectins anytime he saw me eating lentils or beans (a staple in my diet). As with so much fad diet info, there's a grain of truth in that lectins are a scary thing. You *can* make yourself very sick by eating beans. But.. lectins are completely destroyed if you cook lentils / beans. The cooking times vary, but as long as they're properly cooked, beans are either completely lectin-free, or very close to it.

Another interesting facet is that small amounts of lectins can be beneficial. This is similar to the "one glass of wine a day" thing. There's evidence that small amounts of lectins can reduce one's risk of cancer (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/53752)

There is a lot of misinformation out there. As far as I can tell, the generally accepted dietary guides are correct, and not some vast grain conspiracy: eat whole grains, fruits, vegetables, beans. Get some exercise. Drink water. Limit sugars, fats, salts. And spend your time thinking about other stuff!

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2020, 03:50:36 PM »

Thanks for the good info.

Time is probably the main reason I don't enjoy cooking. Working full time jobs with two small children take up the majority of our time.

I cook the way I do because it saves an enormous amount of time. I can batch cook huge amounts of a recipe in not much more time than it takes to make 4 servings. Curries, soups, stews, and chilis all keep and reheat beautifully, so there's a huge time savings there, especially after work.

mm1970

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2020, 04:47:02 PM »

Thanks for the good info.

Time is probably the main reason I don't enjoy cooking. Working full time jobs with two small children take up the majority of our time.

I cook the way I do because it saves an enormous amount of time. I can batch cook huge amounts of a recipe in not much more time than it takes to make 4 servings. Curries, soups, stews, and chilis all keep and reheat beautifully, so there's a huge time savings there, especially after work.
I was going to say this.  So, +1.

Also, lots of goof info from GreenSheep also.  I too think there's a method of cooking for everyone.  You just have to find it (and realize, that what it is TODAY might not be what it was 2 years ago or 5 years from now).

We both work FT (at home right now) with 2 kids.  They are bigger, now, (14 and 7) but still a lot of work.  My method of cooking has changed a ton over the years.

When I first learned to cook, I took baby steps, and then slowly went all in.  Making bread, yogurt, several months of attempting pizza dough, cooking all my beans from dried.  I had two pressure cookers (now I have 3).

Then I had a kid.  Some of it stuck, some of it didn't.  Then kid got older and I went back to cooking from scratch.

Then I had another kid.

With kid 1, I religiously made weekly or monthly meal plans based on sales and what I had in the pantry.
When kid 2 was a baby, I had a SYSTEM.
- Sat: make a big meal (pasta dish, beans and rice, casserole)
- Sun, make 2 meals - one for the week's lunch, another big dinner meal.
- We had the same lunch every day. One week, burritos.  Next week, sandwiches, etc.
- We ate the dinners (alternating) until we ran out.
- Weds was always crockpot day because we were almost out of leftovers.
- Weds dinner held us over until Friday night.

Then kid 2 got older, and I switched my work schedule, so I don't do the dinner cooking anymore. Husband does, he's busy too. So now:
- I cook 2 big meals on the weekends.
- Meal #1 gets eaten for dinner on Saturday and lunch on Monday/Tuesday (I now have 2 boys, one a teenager, meals do not last as long as they used to).
- Meal #2 gets eaten for dinner on Sunday and Monday. Monday night's side is always kale chips.
- Tuesday is always something easy, like chicken fingers for the kids and homemade veggie burgers for us (that I made and freeze).  Or falafel. 
- Weds or Thursday is another meal that lasts 2 meals.  I will admit, we are in a pasta run.  One pot pasta in the pressure cooker, lasts 2.5 meals.
- I eat salad for lunch every single day.

I am also partial to Indian curries, Mexican, and Thai curries.  I mean, what is better than coconut milk and red curry paste mixed with veggies?  Maybe only noodles with peanut sauce, but my teen hates that.

With full time jobs and two young kids, you are in the thick of it because you are exhausted.  However, hopefully your kids are young enough that you can make a few big meals and eat them all week.  (Meaning, they aren't filling a hollow leg like my teen.)

My favorite two cookbooks for vegan food in a pressure cooker:  (everything has come out great, and sometimes I can use the recipes to just wing it):
https://www.amazon.com/New-Fast-Food-Pressure-MInutes/dp/0976708515

https://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Under-Pressure-Jill-Nussinow-ebook/dp/B010KMOPI0

I'm not at the level of Malkynn in having it dialed in with 100 different rotating recipes, but we get enough variety.

GreenSheep

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2020, 05:54:27 PM »
Time is probably the main reason I don't enjoy cooking. Working full time jobs with two small children take up the majority of our time.

Okay, that's solvable! :-) There have already been some good ideas above. It might take some experimenting to figure out what works for you; different people do it different ways. I love how Plantiful Kiki on YouTube says, "I have taken the time to lower my family's expectations." Ha!

Some of it depends on your tolerance for leftovers. I can eat the same thing about 3 days in a row (once a day), and then I find that even if it's something I love, I'm tired of it. This is where your freezer can be really helpful. If you make a big batch of something and get sick of it, into the freezer it goes. In individual portions! In containers that can tolerate the freezer, the oven, and the microwave! With a label! (Ask me how I learned that one...) That way you can just grab "frozen dinners" as needed.

Preparing PARTS of meals in advance can really help, too, if you don't want to make a big batch of curry or something. Rice, beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, chopped vegetables. All of those can be cooked/chopped in advance and kept in the fridge or freezer for the week. You can also throw together a sauce or two on the weekend in your blender. A good sauce can make cardboard delicious. Cheese sauce, teriyaki, avocado-cilantro, salsa, etc. Then you can just make a meal out of starch + beans + vegetables + sauce. If you have a few options on hand, everyone can mix and match what they like.

One time-saving thing I think people tend to overlook is the quality of even their most basic kitchen equipment. You don't have to run out and spend millions on fancy stuff, but don't be one of those people who use the cheapest, dullest knife from the back of the drawer and then complain that it takes too long to cook. (Not saying this is you, but I know people like this!) Sharp knives, big pots (so things actually fit, and you can make large amounts), a large cutting board (so you're not chasing stuff around), lots of storage containers that are good for fridge/freezer/oven/microwave... basic stuff like that can really save you time in the kitchen.

NextTime

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2020, 09:16:05 AM »
Time is probably the main reason I don't enjoy cooking. Working full time jobs with two small children take up the majority of our time.

Okay, that's solvable! :-) There have already been some good ideas above. It might take some experimenting to figure out what works for you; different people do it different ways. I love how Plantiful Kiki on YouTube says, "I have taken the time to lower my family's expectations." Ha!

Some of it depends on your tolerance for leftovers. I can eat the same thing about 3 days in a row (once a day), and then I find that even if it's something I love, I'm tired of it. This is where your freezer can be really helpful. If you make a big batch of something and get sick of it, into the freezer it goes. In individual portions! In containers that can tolerate the freezer, the oven, and the microwave! With a label! (Ask me how I learned that one...) That way you can just grab "frozen dinners" as needed.

Preparing PARTS of meals in advance can really help, too, if you don't want to make a big batch of curry or something. Rice, beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, chopped vegetables. All of those can be cooked/chopped in advance and kept in the fridge or freezer for the week. You can also throw together a sauce or two on the weekend in your blender. A good sauce can make cardboard delicious. Cheese sauce, teriyaki, avocado-cilantro, salsa, etc. Then you can just make a meal out of starch + beans + vegetables + sauce. If you have a few options on hand, everyone can mix and match what they like.

One time-saving thing I think people tend to overlook is the quality of even their most basic kitchen equipment. You don't have to run out and spend millions on fancy stuff, but don't be one of those people who use the cheapest, dullest knife from the back of the drawer and then complain that it takes too long to cook. (Not saying this is you, but I know people like this!) Sharp knives, big pots (so things actually fit, and you can make large amounts), a large cutting board (so you're not chasing stuff around), lots of storage containers that are good for fridge/freezer/oven/microwave... basic stuff like that can really save you time in the kitchen.


Do you have a recommendation on the freezer safe, economical storage containers?

I'm pretty solid on kitchen equipment. Instant Pot, Vitamix (used daily), convection air fryer/oven, various pots and pans, pretty good knives (Victorinox).


mm1970

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2020, 12:54:22 PM »
Time is probably the main reason I don't enjoy cooking. Working full time jobs with two small children take up the majority of our time.

Okay, that's solvable! :-) There have already been some good ideas above. It might take some experimenting to figure out what works for you; different people do it different ways. I love how Plantiful Kiki on YouTube says, "I have taken the time to lower my family's expectations." Ha!

Some of it depends on your tolerance for leftovers. I can eat the same thing about 3 days in a row (once a day), and then I find that even if it's something I love, I'm tired of it. This is where your freezer can be really helpful. If you make a big batch of something and get sick of it, into the freezer it goes. In individual portions! In containers that can tolerate the freezer, the oven, and the microwave! With a label! (Ask me how I learned that one...) That way you can just grab "frozen dinners" as needed.

Preparing PARTS of meals in advance can really help, too, if you don't want to make a big batch of curry or something. Rice, beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, chopped vegetables. All of those can be cooked/chopped in advance and kept in the fridge or freezer for the week. You can also throw together a sauce or two on the weekend in your blender. A good sauce can make cardboard delicious. Cheese sauce, teriyaki, avocado-cilantro, salsa, etc. Then you can just make a meal out of starch + beans + vegetables + sauce. If you have a few options on hand, everyone can mix and match what they like.

One time-saving thing I think people tend to overlook is the quality of even their most basic kitchen equipment. You don't have to run out and spend millions on fancy stuff, but don't be one of those people who use the cheapest, dullest knife from the back of the drawer and then complain that it takes too long to cook. (Not saying this is you, but I know people like this!) Sharp knives, big pots (so things actually fit, and you can make large amounts), a large cutting board (so you're not chasing stuff around), lots of storage containers that are good for fridge/freezer/oven/microwave... basic stuff like that can really save you time in the kitchen.


Do you have a recommendation on the freezer safe, economical storage containers?

I'm pretty solid on kitchen equipment. Instant Pot, Vitamix (used daily), convection air fryer/oven, various pots and pans, pretty good knives (Victorinox).
We have a variety of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-Rectangular-Container-18-Piece-BPA-free/dp/B0157G34AY 

Glass dishes with lids. 

I've got vegetable stew, fried rice, posole, mexican beans and rice, and cooked quinoa in freezer right now.

bacchi

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2020, 01:43:27 PM »
Do you have a recommendation on the freezer safe, economical storage containers?

I'm pretty solid on kitchen equipment. Instant Pot, Vitamix (used daily), convection air fryer/oven, various pots and pans, pretty good knives (Victorinox).
We have a variety of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-Rectangular-Container-18-Piece-BPA-free/dp/B0157G34AY 

Glass dishes with lids. 

I've got vegetable stew, fried rice, posole, mexican beans and rice, and cooked quinoa in freezer right now.

That's what we use too.


GreenSheep

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2020, 01:47:23 PM »
Do you have a recommendation on the freezer safe, economical storage containers?

I'm pretty solid on kitchen equipment. Instant Pot, Vitamix (used daily), convection air fryer/oven, various pots and pans, pretty good knives (Victorinox).

I use the same Pyrex ones mm1970 recommended above! I have a million of the round ones with the dark blue lids. They come in sets of 7, 4, and 2-cup containers (1, 2, and 4 of each, respectively) on Amazon, or I think you can get them individually at Walmart. Square/rectangular might be better for taking up less space, but I haven't investigated the sizes those shapes come in. I like the 2/4/7 cup sizes. My fancy labeling system is... masking tape and a Sharpie.

To prolong their life, we don't put the lids in the microwave, and we don't use our dishwasher, so they don't go in there, either. (I just use one of these in the microwave instead if a cover is even needed at all: https://www.amazon.com/Charles-Viancin-Lilypad-Lid-Set/dp/B00PRLC2KS/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=lily+pad+lid&qid=1587583224&sr=8-1 ) We've noticed you do have to be careful not to use too much force to pry off the lid because a couple of ours have cracked over time.

I also use a lot of mason jars of various sizes. (Thing I wish I'd known before:  get the ones with the wide mouth -- my hands fit in those but not the regular ones -- easier cleaning.) They're not as handy for eating directly out of, but they're good for holding leftover odds and ends, like a bunch of rice or a sauce or whatever. I use them for dry storage of grains, beans, etc. too. They look nicer on the shelves than a bunch of jumbled-up packages, so they make me happier looking around my kitchen, and it's easier to see at a glance what's running low. :-)

OtherJen

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2020, 04:17:39 PM »
Those Pyrex containers and mason jars are also our preferred food storage options. You can buy replacement lids for the Pyrex (the plastic eventually cracks) and you can even buy plastic screw caps for the mason jars if you don't want to fuss with the two-piece metal lids.

lesmalheurs

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2020, 09:42:53 PM »
Then I see other articles that say lectins are bad for you. Well there goes beans and lentils and pretty much the rest of our diet. So I'm thoroughly confused at this point.

Ahhhh, I used to have a boss who was into the Paleo/Keto diet thing, and would lecture me about lectins anytime he saw me eating lentils or beans (a staple in my diet). As with so much fad diet info, there's a grain of truth in that lectins are a scary thing. You *can* make yourself very sick by eating beans. But.. lectins are completely destroyed if you cook lentils / beans. The cooking times vary, but as long as they're properly cooked, beans are either completely lectin-free, or very close to it.

Another interesting facet is that small amounts of lectins can be beneficial. This is similar to the "one glass of wine a day" thing. There's evidence that small amounts of lectins can reduce one's risk of cancer (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/53752)

There is a lot of misinformation out there. As far as I can tell, the generally accepted dietary guides are correct, and not some vast grain conspiracy: eat whole grains, fruits, vegetables, beans. Get some exercise. Drink water. Limit sugars, fats, salts. And spend your time thinking about other stuff!

I find it a bit funny when people call Paleo a fad diet, while the idea behind it is that it tries to replicate how our ancestors ate for a long period of time. Having said that, there is no one-fits-all diet, but many people don't even take it into consideration.

Going back to original subject, I second the opinion about trying out an elimination diet. It's a painful process, but it's the only way to figure out foods that one's body does not tolerate well.

the_gastropod

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2020, 10:03:49 PM »
I find it a bit funny when people call Paleo a fad diet, while the idea behind it is that it tries to replicate how our ancestors ate for a long period of time.

That’s the claim, yea. But I don’t think it holds up to much scrutiny. Nobody arrived at the paleo diet after rigorous research into what “our ancestors” (whatever that means—what timeframe?) ate. They started with a tweaked Atkins diet (also a fad) and rationalized it with much hand waving. Many foods forbidden in the paleo diet, like oats and grains, were eaten by humans 10k years ago. And foods they do eat, like beef, pork, and oranges didn’t even exist (at least in any recognizable form). The paleo diet is to nutrition what intelligent design is to biology.

bacchi

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2020, 11:43:44 PM »
I find it a bit funny when people call Paleo a fad diet, while the idea behind it is that it tries to replicate how our ancestors ate for a long period of time.

That’s the claim, yea. But I don’t think it holds up to much scrutiny. Nobody arrived at the paleo diet after rigorous research into what “our ancestors” (whatever that means—what timeframe?) ate. They started with a tweaked Atkins diet (also a fad) and rationalized it with much hand waving. Many foods forbidden in the paleo diet, like oats and grains, were eaten by humans 10k years ago. And foods they do eat, like beef, pork, and oranges didn’t even exist (at least in any recognizable form). The paleo diet is to nutrition what intelligent design is to biology.

Paleo man also ate grasses, which is anathema to the paleo diet.

GoodManner

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2020, 04:20:33 AM »
Apart from Palio diet, Mediterranean diet is also very helpful for the RA patients.

Mediterranean diet mainly consists of foods, which have been eaten by people in the Mediterranean region.

The diet consists of some of the anti-inflammatory foods. Since, you want to follow vegan diet so this Mediterranean diet is very helpful for you, because it consists of fruits and vegetables.

It also consists of some whole grains and olive oil.

Ecky

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2020, 06:42:04 AM »
Even as a long time vegan, I'm not sold that a strictly vegan diet is the absolute best in terms of either health or environmental outcome, but it's certainly a large improvement over the average American diet.

One thing I have observed in common with most diets that seem to work longer-term, is that they cut out many highly processed foods. For me, veganism does particularly well for that because most processed foods have animal products in them, and I don't feel I'm depriving myself - there's no incentive to "cheat" on it, if I have other reasons than just health to do it.


lesmalheurs

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2020, 07:49:28 AM »
That’s the claim, yea. But I don’t think it holds up to much scrutiny. Nobody arrived at the paleo diet after rigorous research into what “our ancestors” (whatever that means—what timeframe?) ate. They started with a tweaked Atkins diet (also a fad) and rationalized it with much hand waving. Many foods forbidden in the paleo diet, like oats and grains, were eaten by humans 10k years ago. And foods they do eat, like beef, pork, and oranges didn’t even exist (at least in any recognizable form). The paleo diet is to nutrition what intelligent design is to biology.

What is it exactly that doesn't hold up to scrutiny? Is it reducing processed foods and refined sugar? Or is it avoiding dairy to which most of human population has some kind of intolerance? Is it lectins? Someone mentioned lectins in this thread. Yes, most of them get removed by soaking, fermenting, sprouting, but not completely, but there are actually people who benefit from removing them from their diet. There is more, but I don't want to hijack the original thread.

People should not feel afraid to experiment with their diet. Commonly known dietary guidelines have failed many of us. Personally, I have been fighting health problems for the last two years and I started feeling the biggest difference when I started the elimination diet. If you look around on the internet, you will find many people like me.


Knapptyme

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2020, 08:08:26 AM »
Dr. Greger, a vegan, compiles all sorts of research when making his points. His book How Not to Die is a good, thick read about food and health.

His website nutritionfacts.org has a bunch of helpful info and videos. I especially like is video about the leading causes of death (in America). Everything is backed by real scientific studies. MMM may not like the fact that Greger looks like a weak human being, but it's good information. I have not looked into RA directives from him specifically.

Note: I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, and Greger is not tyrannical. While he lives what he preaches, he advocates for any positive change as good. It's hard to overhaul one's food habits overnight. We've been slowly modifying (read reducing) meat, animal products, sugar, and questionable ingredients or additives for the last five years.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2020, 08:16:47 AM »
Dr. Greger, a vegan, compiles all sorts of research when making his points. His book How Not to Die is a good, thick read about food and health.

His website nutritionfacts.org has a bunch of helpful info and videos. I especially like is video about the leading causes of death (in America). Everything is backed by real scientific studies. MMM may not like the fact that Greger looks like a weak human being, but it's good information. I have not looked into RA directives from him specifically.

Note: I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, and Greger is not tyrannical. While he lives what he preaches, he advocates for any positive change as good. It's hard to overhaul one's food habits overnight. We've been slowly modifying (read reducing) meat, animal products, sugar, and questionable ingredients or additives for the last five years.

I do like the critique of Greger's physique - as if one man, who does not claim to be an athlete, is outright proof that veganism is bad for your physical health.

How about all of the plant-based athletes, then?  See: Game Changers.  Novak Djokovic, Tom Brady, Nate Diaz, Venus Williams, Scott Jurek, Kendrick Farris (the strongest American weightlifter at the 2016 Olympics), many members of the Tennessee Titans, etc. all follow a completely vegan or nearly-completely vegan diet.

Not saying vegan is the magic diet or best for being an elite-level athlete, but many high-level athletes follow a plant-based diet and are doing great.

jamesbond007

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2020, 02:12:37 PM »

How about all of the plant-based athletes, then?  See: Game Changers.  Novak Djokovic, Tom Brady, Nate Diaz, Venus Williams, Scott Jurek, Kendrick Farris (the strongest American weightlifter at the 2016 Olympics), many members of the Tennessee Titans, etc. all follow a completely vegan or nearly-completely vegan diet.

Not saying vegan is the magic diet or best for being an elite-level athlete, but many high-level athletes follow a plant-based diet and are doing great.

Yes, all of those you mentioned ate meat for most of their lives growing up and working out building all the muscle and stamina. Then one fine day they decide to go Vegan/Vegetarian. Somehow all the foundation they built eating meat disappears. If you have any "Elite-level athlete" who has been a lifelong Vegan/Vegetarian, then we are talking.

Game Changers did a job marketing veganism but them referring to these athletes is a stupid thing they did, among other things, and lost credibility.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2020, 02:30:31 PM »

How about all of the plant-based athletes, then?  See: Game Changers.  Novak Djokovic, Tom Brady, Nate Diaz, Venus Williams, Scott Jurek, Kendrick Farris (the strongest American weightlifter at the 2016 Olympics), many members of the Tennessee Titans, etc. all follow a completely vegan or nearly-completely vegan diet.

Not saying vegan is the magic diet or best for being an elite-level athlete, but many high-level athletes follow a plant-based diet and are doing great.

Yes, all of those you mentioned ate meat for most of their lives growing up and working out building all the muscle and stamina. Then one fine day they decide to go Vegan/Vegetarian. Somehow all the foundation they built eating meat disappears. If you have any "Elite-level athlete" who has been a lifelong Vegan/Vegetarian, then we are talking.

Game Changers did a job marketing veganism but them referring to these athletes is a stupid thing they did, among other things, and lost credibility.

Lol what?  It only "counts" if they've been vegan since birth?  LMFAO.

Guess when you want to discredit something, you'll resort to the most absurd arguments possible.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2020, 03:17:44 PM »
As someone who cooked in a vegan restaurant, I can firmly, and with absolute authority say that a vegan diet is not necessarily a healthy diet.

Many people who choose veganism do also tend to be people who are actively seeking a healthier diet, but that doesn't mean that there aren't boat loads of vegans living on frozen french fries and Oreos.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2020, 06:32:26 PM »
Yes, all of those you mentioned ate meat for most of their lives growing up and working out building all the muscle and stamina. Then one fine day they decide to go Vegan/Vegetarian. Somehow all the foundation they built eating meat disappears. If you have any "Elite-level athlete" who has been a lifelong Vegan/Vegetarian, then we are talking.

Nimai Delgado comes immediately to mind, and I'm sure there are others, but you can search the internet for them as easily as I can. As this article notes, he's been 95% vegan since birth and 100% since 2015. And just look at him! :-o Others who started out omnivorous have actually said that it wasn't until they changed their diet that they made huge gains in muscle, despite their fears to the contrary -- or speed, or stamina, or whatever their sport requires.

https://www.greatveganathletes.com/nimai-delgado-vegan-bodybuilder/

More photos on his Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nimai_delgado/

That said, I do agree with Malkynn that vegan does not necessarily mean healthy, especially now that there's so much processed vegan junk. I actually hate the word "vegan" because of all the negativity associated with it. Whole food, plant-based IS healthy, but even the leaders in the field acknowledge that there's no research that says 96% plant-based is any worse for you than 100%. I just found that once I headed in this direction, the idea of putting anything from an animal into my mouth started to really disgust me, not only for my own sake, but for theirs. First it was just the idea of it, and now I truly dislike the taste. I'm also one of those people who find it easier to draw a hard line than to constantly have to make micro-decisions.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2020, 08:44:44 PM »
I'm the opposite of someone who finds hardline diets easier. Everyone needs to figure out what works for them. For some it's hardline vegan, for others like me, it's flexitarian.

I heavily prioritize vegan cooking, but will use dairy and eggs in a minority of my recipes. I even cook fish every few months.

Otherwise, I go to a number of professional dinners and events and find it a lot easier not to complicate things for myself with dietary restrictions.

It'ss just so much easier for me not having to think about it. If meat is the most convenient thing to eat in a given situation, cool, I'll eat meat. If I'm at a corporate BBQ, then yeah, I will much prefer to eat BBQ'd chicken instead of a processed tofu dog. Barf.

People are often asking me why I don't go "full vegetarian" and more than a few meat eating people have called me a hypocrite, which is just ridiculous, but people are weird.

Anyhoo, as I said, everyone needs to figure out what they're personally comfortable with, but as was said already, if we're just looking at it physiologically, a bit of meat here and there isn't going to have any kind of effect, especially not compared to the natural variability *within* vegetarian and vegan diets.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2020, 06:14:22 AM »
I find it a bit funny when people call Paleo a fad diet, while the idea behind it is that it tries to replicate how our ancestors ate for a long period of time.

That’s the claim, yea. But I don’t think it holds up to much scrutiny. Nobody arrived at the paleo diet after rigorous research into what “our ancestors” (whatever that means—what timeframe?) ate. They started with a tweaked Atkins diet (also a fad) and rationalized it with much hand waving. Many foods forbidden in the paleo diet, like oats and grains, were eaten by humans 10k years ago. And foods they do eat, like beef, pork, and oranges didn’t even exist (at least in any recognizable form). The paleo diet is to nutrition what intelligent design is to biology.

My ancestors for thousands of years probably ate nothing but bread, cheese, and beer. Maybe the occasional cabbage or turnip. Meat or fruit would have been an occasional treat.

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Re: Vegetarianism
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2020, 05:45:24 AM »
I went Vegan about 2.5 years ago after my wife asked me to take a 1 week challenge.  At eggs for breakfast and chicken for lunch consistently for like 4 years.  Have always been pretty active and what I would call healthy.  Had ACL repair from a soccer injury about 13 years ago and had to deal w/constant swelling.  Vegan diet had noticable inflamation reduction within 3 days.  3 days!  After dealing w/icing and anti-inflamatory anytime after coaching for years and w/in 3 days a vegan diet allowed me to ditch it all.  Bodies react differently to different stuff, but it was so good for me that I went cold turkey and have never looked back.  Side benefit is that total cholesterol went from 185 down to 130 within 2 months (maybe faster, that was just when my physical was) and the following year total cholesterol was 110, Dr. was even amazed that diet did that.  I think the key is to find the easy meals to cook and stick with it, then expand from there.  I did oatmeal and berries for breakfast, seitan/beans/kale/hot sauce for lunch and something similar for dinner.  I eat Seitan everyday (no gluten issues) and it super cheap to make and easy and more protein than chicken breast calorie for calorie.  I'm doing intermittent fasting now to drop some weight which I've enjoyed the benefits of so don't do breakfast anymore.  I do cook a lot more now though b/c I get more interested in vegan dishes, so have been doing kung pao tofu, mongolian seitan, things like that, which are not particularly healthy, but there is a youtube video for anything you want to do in life, so just look something up that interests you, or one of your non-vegan go to dishes and there will be a vegan alternative and some people are really talented at making easy to follow and condensed youtube video's. 

Overall, I didn't want to take the plunge, thought I would get through a week of the challenge and go back but I stuck w/it, it's easy if you see/feel the benefits, reduced swelling was the one for me, then you find secondary benefits (animals, planet, etc.).  Side note is that they said it takes like a week for your gut bacteria to change.  For me I think it took like 3 weeks, it was longer, so gassy and stuff for that time, but after that it was good to go.  Good luck!

 

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