How Long Am I Obligated To Work?

[purplepants]

This is kind of a spinoff inspired by the thread on changing jobs when your spouse makes a great income http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-if-your-spouse-could-make-you-fire-would-you-live-differently/.

Only in my situation, I'm the high earner.  And I absolutely hate my job, my industry, and working any kind of job that dicatates my schedule.  I'm not lazy, it's just that I can think of a million things I could do that would create more value for my family if I wasn't stuck at this desk right now.  Unfortunately, the dollar value on any of those things doesn't equal the $35 an hour I make at this miserable job. 

My husband is military and will be in the service for another 4 to 8 years (this will depend on whether he picks up a promotion at the end of next year - if he does not make the cut for the promotion, he will have to retire after 20 years).  Currently he makes about 75% of what I make, and once we have our debts paid off (about a year or so) we can easily live comfortably on his salary for the remainder of his time in the military. 

When he separates, he'll bring home his military pension, plus he plans to find a civilian job.  I would expect his pension plus salary to come in at about 50 - 60% of my current salary. 

He has told me repeatedly that he just wants me to be happy, and he's fine with me taking a lower paying job or no job at all as long as we can pay the bills on what he brings home.  I desperately want to take him up on this, but at the same time feel guilty just thinking about it.  If I have the potential to earn a huge income, aren't I obligated to do so, at least until he is ready to retire?  I'm interested in seeing what other people think.

[nereo]

i'd say you have an obligation to be happy, not only to yourself but to your husband as well.
If the current job is not making you happy, nad your husband is encouraging you to find something that does make you happy - listen to him!
There are plenty of jobs out there that will benefit society, if your guilt stems from not being a contributing member of humanity.

[former player]

You are the person for whom mustachianism was invented.  Pay down those debts as aggressively as you can (can you do it in less than a year? - challenge yourself) and then go and do something more fulfilling with your life.

Your husband loves you, he wants you to be happy not miserable, and he has repeatedly told you so.  What is it that is stopping you from hearing him?  If it is what your parents, your teachers, your church or your society has been telling you, say to them (in your head mostly, but out loud if necessary) "You are not part of my marriage.  I want to be happy.  My husband wants me to be happy.  If I'm happy he's happy, and if he's happy I'm happy.  This is how we're going to do it.  Butt out."

Is $35 dollars an hour your net, your gross or your gross plus benefits?  I ask because it might help with the current daily hatred if you can calculate your hourly gross including benefits, rather than the hourly net without benefits.  You could also count off the working hours in relation to debt paid - another hour of hate, another $X off the debt, another hour closer to freedom.

[Frankies Girl]

I have the high paying job as well. Husband earns almost half of what I do, and I carry all of the benefits as well (his job has no/sucky benefits).

I'm quitting in 2015 anyway. I am exhausted, in crappy shape and just plain sick of doing what I do most of the time. I am not the same me I was 10 years ago, and I want that person back.

We've had several talks about how this will impact our finances, our plans... and I've asked him several times if he thinks he might end up resentful or jealous or angry with me if he has to go in and I'm at home. He says roughly the same thing - as long as we can make it okay on our investments and him working for as long as he would like to work, he'd really just like me to be happy.

It's definitely a paradigm shift to process that "I just want you to be happy" part. As long as you've both talked things through and he's not saying stuff he thinks you want to hear (and later will get resentful over), then take him at his word - he loves you and this would be good for you, and y'all will be better as a couple since you won't feel as stressed out and depressed about work.

[purplepants]

You are the person for whom mustachianism was invented.  Pay down those debts as aggressively as you can (can you do it in less than a year? - challenge yourself) and then go and do something more fulfilling with your life.

Your husband loves you, he wants you to be happy not miserable, and he has repeatedly told you so.  What is it that is stopping you from hearing him?  If it is what your parents, your teachers, your church or your society has been telling you, say to them (in your head mostly, but out loud if necessary) "You are not part of my marriage.  I want to be happy.  My husband wants me to be happy.  If I'm happy he's happy, and if he's happy I'm happy.  This is how we're going to do it.  Butt out."

Is $35 dollars an hour your net, your gross or your gross plus benefits?  I ask because it might help with the current daily hatred if you can calculate your hourly gross including benefits, rather than the hourly net without benefits.  You could also count off the working hours in relation to debt paid - another hour of hate, another $X off the debt, another hour closer to freedom.

I am trying to get it paid off in less than a year, although it will require working tons of extra hours at the aforementioned miserable job (learn from my mistake: don't borrow money to get an MBA hoping it will get you out of your lousy career path when deep-down you don't really want a career).    And it really is miserable - I actually cry on the way to work sometimes because I just can't stand another day of it.  My job is in quality assurance, so basically I get paid up to be everyone's enemy.  I'm repeatedly called names (last week it was an F***ing C**t) and listen to people complain.  I sometimes wonder if it's better to work 80 hours a week while falling deeper into depression and being out of debt by January, or working the minimum 45 hours a week, having a little time to spend at home, and working until next September.  I should mention that I have a 1-hour commute (each way) so that eats into my free time a lot as well.   

$35 an hour is my gross, I net more like $24 for every hour that I'm there.  I could calculate in benefits, but they are negligable.  I'm on hubby's health insurance, I won't be vested in my 401k for another 2.5 years, and life insurance doesn't cost that much. 

I appreciate the supportive comments, I wasn't sure what kind of response I would get.  I'm so happy to have found a community of people who think like me.  I'm just constantly dreaming up things that my job doesn't allow me the time to do!

I want to make jam!
I want to grow a huge vegetable garden!
I want to charge rich people $20 to take the dog they never should have gotten along on the run I was going to take anyway (so they can work late to pay for that BMW)!
I want to keep chickens!
I want to sew my own underpants out of T-shirts that are no longer wearable!
I want to charge the rich people's friends ridiculous amounts of money to pick up the dog shit from their backyard!
I want to design sewing patterns and sell them on the internet!

And I could do ALL OF THAT STUFF if I wasn't handcuffed by my paycheck to this stupid job!

[purplepants]

It's definitely a paradigm shift to process that "I just want you to be happy" part. As long as you've both talked things through and he's not saying stuff he thinks you want to hear (and later will get resentful over), then take him at his word - he loves you and this would be good for you, and y'all will be better as a couple since you won't feel as stressed out and depressed about work.

This!  The condition I'm in when I come home from work is abysmal.  On a good day, I lock myself in my sewing room for a couple of hours until I can act like a human again.  On a bad day, I end up biting his head off for something stupid.  Plus, he carries more than his fair share of the household duties because he's trying to lighten the load for me since I'm already so burned out.

Also, I know I'll never make $75k a year doing what I want to do, but I do want to contribute to the household finances.  Just on more of a freelance, work for myself, unscheduled basis.  So it's not so much that I want to quit working, I just want to accept a much lower paying "job" and see what I can turn it into.

[Trudie]

Pay down those debts and develop an exit strategy.

A good exit strategy involves taking care of yourself and your health.  I have 1 1/2 hours of commuting time each day, which has become progressively worse with the horrible winters we've had.  Daydreaming about my exit strategy helps.

I carry a notebook with me at all times where I keep resources and information related to my exit strategy.  When I have bad days and downtime at work I keep spreadsheets (in the cloud) where I have all of our finances worked out.

Start thinking not IF you can make this work, but HOW.  When you are overwhelmed emotionally (been there) you can't slow your mind enough to think.

It sounds like your work place might be toxic and might be making you sick.  My view is that nobody has to put up with abuse.  If you can't change it (ie, with the help of HR), do not be afraid to talk to a counselor to help you get "unstuck."  And take sick time to do it.

It seems like you have an intense desire to nest and make a home.  The things that you want to do sound a lot like urban homesteading.  Start researching HOW to make this work.  You may not contribute money directly to your family's bottom line, but you will create economic value to your family by growing your own food, being "present", and generally being happier and healthier.  What are some things you're paying others to do now that you could do yourself if you didn't commute?

Start developing a business plan for your sewing business.  Many communities (check your Chamber of Commerce) have small business consulting services for free.

State agricultural extension services have tons of free information and courses on homesteading and agricultural practices.  Familiarize yourself and get enrolled.

While developing a plan for the next phase of your life make some sheets for "Assets" -- these are things in your community that cost little or next to nothing that can help you on your transition.  For instance, on mine I have lists of courses through extension, the free resources available to me through my public library, various free sources of entertainment/recreation, and so forth.

When you think ahead in this way you change your focus a bit and it helps you move forward.  For instance, you start to think:  "I'm going into business for myself" rather than, "I can't wait to leave this job I hate."  Practice talking about it in this way too... it just helps.  I'm not saying the job doesn't suck (because I feel this often too), but focusing on what you're doing for yourself helps you stay positive and get out of a bad situation.

Oh -- and everytime someone calls you a f*cking c*nt or generally humiliates you -- promptly go home and throw more money in your "FU" account. 

[Zette]

I am trying to get it paid off in less than a year, although it will require working tons of extra hours at the aforementioned miserable job (learn from my mistake: don't borrow money to get an MBA hoping it will get you out of your lousy career path when deep-down you don't really want a career).    And it really is miserable - I actually cry on the way to work sometimes because I just can't stand another day of it.  My job is in quality assurance, so basically I get paid up to be everyone's enemy.  I'm repeatedly called names (last week it was an F***ing C**t) and listen to people complain.  I sometimes wonder if it's better to work 80 hours a week while falling deeper into depression and being out of debt by January, or working the minimum 45 hours a week, having a little time to spend at home, and working until next September.  I should mention that I have a 1-hour commute (each way) so that eats into my free time a lot as well.   

How about looking for a job at a different company until you are out of debt?  Someone else may pay you about the same to be less miserable.

[former player]

Purplepants: Can you file a formal complaint over the "F****** C***"?  You are highly qualified, reasonably well-paid, very valuable employee to your organisation, and your managers should have your back.  If you possibly can, start leveraging that.  Are there any trade unions/employee organisations which can help you?

Frankly, from what you have said your work situation is so bad that unless you can get a quick turn-around, I think you ought to leave.  What does that do to the debts?  I know that this site is all about hair on fire debts, but your last post makes your job a hair on fire emergency too.  Once you are out of a toxic environment, you should be able to see other work possibilities more clearly.

Best of luck.

[purplepants]

Honestly, this is the third company I have worked for since 2010.  Manufacturing is a really rough industry, especially in the rural south where wages are low and there are still a lot of racial tensions. 

One company was not as bad, work environment wise, but paid about 20% less than industry standard.  The other company was worse, by a long shot.  Here the employees are asshats, but I don't fear for my personal safety.  I've been here since March.  If I found something that would pay me more money, I would take it but for now I'm just a mercenary - I'll work for the highest bidder so that I can get out of debt as soon as possible.  I can suck it up for another year, but not much more than that.

Just tell me I can go make jam when that last loan is paid!

[Jennifer in Ottawa]

So, here's what you do.  This weekend, do your calculations and spreadsheets and pick the day you tell your employer to pound salt.  Create a calendar for yourself, count the number of days to freedom, and post this number on your fridge.  Every day, reduce the number by one.  Then when you are back at work, you can smile into the face of your harassers and think to yourself "Only X more days till I can tell your ugly face to Fuck the Hell Off".

In the intervening days between today and Fuck-You Day, amass your knowledge base on how to do all the things you want to do once free of your shackles.

If you don't already Journal on here, maybe you might consider it.  I am excited for you, and would love to read about your journey out of the 7th circle of Hell.

[sol]

To offer a contrarian opinion, I think you personally are obligated to work, at minimum, long enough to pay off the debts that you personally have incurred.  If you want to be a kept woman after that, that's between you and your spouse. 

I wouldn't feel comfortable quitting and making my spouse pay for my past indiscretions.

[purplepants]

To offer a contrarian opinion, I think you personally are obligated to work, at minimum, long enough to pay off the debts that you personally have incurred.  If you want to be a kept woman after that, that's between you and your spouse. 

I wouldn't feel comfortable quitting and making my spouse pay for my past indiscretions.

I'm not entirely sure where you got this, but I appreciate the sentiment.

For future reference, I do NOT appreciate the term "kept woman." 

I did mention that we were jointly paying off 100% of our debt before we would even consider me leaving the workforce. 

[rujancified]

I...I don't even know what to say about the use of the c-word in the office. I'm crass as hell, but I can't imagine calling someone that in a workplace situation. 

I've been having this conversation with myself for years as well.  I'm only recently married and we're just starting down the road of paying off mortgages (primary & rentals) to set us up for FI. We're both making about the same amount now and if a couple things break the right way, one of us could stop working in the medium future (3-7 years, I mean). But...I'm female. And I work in technology.  And I'm a manager. Don't I owe it to womenkind to keep working? Because I can, does that mean I have to?

So...Solidarity, I guess*? Just do what's best for you and your family.

*Note: Not assuming you're female. Just non-heteronormative solidarity.

[Emilyngh]

 But...I'm female. And I work in technology.  And I'm a manager. Don't I owe it to womenkind to keep working? Because I can, does that mean I have to?

So...Solidarity, I guess*? Just do what's best for you and your family.

*Note: Not assuming you're female. Just non-heteronormative solidarity.

Ohhh, good point.   As a woman with a PhD in electrical engineering doing research and teaching physics, I've had the same thoughts about ER (and about taking a less prestigious track for more free time). 

[Annamal]

I'm going to take a slightly contrarian bent and suggest that it is probably netter to pay your debts off a little slower but keep your mental health.

You  could use the extra time to start putting some of your plans into motion, digging gardens, building compost bins, acquiring skills, that way  you will still be in a position to enjoy the results of your sacrifice.

I know what it's like to cry on the way to work and the only way I managed to stop it was being  kind to myself (and walking...walking is my sanity valve...gardening might be yours)

[begood]

purplepants, it sounds like you have a hard-earned case of killer fatigue.

Do you have any support from higher-ups? Anyone you can talk to about the culture of abuse you're experiencing while you do your job? Nobody should have to put up with that shit.

This wouldn't solve your overall problem, but could you start by setting aside time on the weekend to look into some of the things you really want to do? Are they incompatible with continuing to work long enough to get rid of your debt?

For example, could you look into getting some chickens now? Find out if backyard chickens are allowed where you live? They're surprisingly low maintenance - feed, water, collect the eggs, clean out the coop/roost every couple weeks - and they provide a lot of enjoyment.

Could you design sewing patterns and set up an Etsy store?

It sounds like your creative side is crying out for expression. If you do decide you need to continue working at this job or one like it until your debt is gone, I'd say look for little things you can do that feed that part of your soul.

And Annamal has it exactly right: Be kind to yourself.

[wtjbatman]

The OP is right, the world of manufacturing can be lot more crass and rude than your typical office only setting. I'm guessing it wasn't a fellow office worker who called her the F*** C***. I work in manufacturing (office/safety/security side, but deal with everyone regularly), and I've heard worse than what the OP said. Except for when the one HR rep is around, of course. Not saying it's right, but it just has the potential to be a rough environment.

[Villanelle]

File a formal complaint about the C*** comment.  That's harassment and if it continues to happen, you have a hostile work environment and all that goes along with that as far as employment law.

In your shoes, I wouldn't be ready to quit working.  I'd be job hunting like crazy.  And I'd happily take a pay cut, even a significant one, in order to get out.  If that meant working an extra year, but doing it in a place that didn't make me miserable, I'd still jump on that.  If it mean working retail for 3 years rather than in my professional, miserable job, I'd do that, too. 

Also, look at that list of things you can do and see if  it is realistic for you to monetize some of them.  Can you make enough jam to sell, and do you have a way to sell it? Or get the chickens now and sell eggs to neighbors?  Anything you can do to set up a side hustle is a month or two shaved off your work time. And if you switch to a less stressful job, or even a part time job, you have more time to nurture these side hustles. 

[zataks]

For future reference, I do NOT appreciate the term "kept woman." 

This is kind of funny to me.  A couple weeks ago a coworker was asking how things were going since I moved in with my GF into her new condo.  I don't remember the specifics of the conversation but I'm sure I said something about it being great and now I want to work less so I have more time there.  CW's response, "oh, zataks, are you a kept man now?"  I (and GF) had a good laugh about this. 

edit: CW is a female engineer

[Sonorous Epithet]

 But...I'm female. And I work in technology.  And I'm a manager. Don't I owe it to womenkind to keep working? Because I can, does that mean I have to?

So...Solidarity, I guess*? Just do what's best for you and your family.

*Note: Not assuming you're female. Just non-heteronormative solidarity.

Ohhh, good point.   As a woman with a PhD in electrical engineering doing research and teaching physics, I've had the same thoughts about ER (and about taking a less prestigious track for more free time).

Woman A: Works 40 years in a male-dominated field, busting through glass ceilings with a sledgehammer. Demonstrates how to achieve American Dream despite patriarchy. Leads other women through work-related channels.

Woman B: Works 15 years in a male-dominated field, reaches FIRE. Demonstrates how to achieve personal dreams despite patriarchy. Leads other women from ER through alternative channels and projects.

Both women are truly admirable in my book.

[Nords]

If I have the potential to earn a huge income, aren't I obligated to do so, at least until he is ready to retire?  I'm interested in seeing what other people think.

We all have the potential to earn a huge income as long as we're willing to kill ourselves in the process.

I think that your current situation lacks work/life balance, but you don't need Captain Obvious to point that out.  In a year you'll have paid off your debts, you'll perhaps have a little clarity on your spouse's promotion, and you'll be able to spreadsheet a plan for financial independence.  What you're doing right now is slogging through a morass of deprivation (and a hostile workplace environment) in pursuit of those goals.  It's admirable, but it's not sustainable.

The irony is that usually it's the spouse in uniform who's leading a miserably crappy existence while feeling obligated to maximize his (and it's almost always a his) human capital.

I think the two of you would benefit from a mutual reading & discussion of a library copy of "When She Makes More":
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/04/24/book-review-when-she-makes-more/

Sure, Farnoosh is a celebrity financial guru, but the book is packed with studies and data and personal stories from the hundreds of interviews that she did during the years of writing a book.  In other words it's hard data, not cheerful psychobabble.  She drives home the point that you're feeling hyper-obligated to shoulder far more than your share of the burden, it's burning you out, and it's going to end badly.

I think one tactic that would help (or at least ease your blood pressure and the fatigue headaches a little) would be to discuss a career change to a different job or part-time.  If that's not in the cards (I'm not trying to start an argument) then analyze what would happen if you completely quit your job tomorrow and lived off your spouse's income.  With more time (and more sleep) could you cut your expenses?  How much longer would it take to pay off you debts?  How much longer would he have to work after his military retirement?

Again, I think the long-term solution to this work-life balance challenge is a career change or cutting back.  If those two things can't happen, then imagine how it'll work out if you have a health-related crisis on the job.  It's not just a hypothetical question-- my spouse and I have been spending the last two years helping a neighbor widow work through her grief.