Author Topic: Undecided about long term disability insurance  (Read 1416 times)

EchoStache

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Undecided about long term disability insurance
« on: November 26, 2022, 02:22:51 PM »
My employer does not offer long term disability insurance. 

Dual income family.  We can comfortably live off of either one of our incomes.

What are peoples thoughts on paying significant premiums for LTD insurance?  I'm seeing $284/month for $4,000/month benefit until age 65(14 years, I'm 51).  This seems like an awful lot of money I can't invest between now and FI.

My FI goal is 7 years so I would have to pay $24,000 in premiums over 7 years to have this coverage(at which point I would drop it)

With a long term, permanent disability, doesn't social security offer some level of benefit, maybe $1700/month or so?

Of course, the upside is up to 14 years of benefits totaling $672,000 if I were to become disabled in the near future.

1)Spend $24,000, remain healthy, FI in 7 years with $30,000 less in assets due to premiums paid.
2)Don't get LTD insurance, remain healthy, FI in 7 years with $30,000 more, or perhaps FI a touch sooner.
3) Spend $284 month, become disable in the next 7 years before FI, get $4,000 month until 65.

I'm so focused on *reducing* expenses that I'm really having a hard time adding this cost despite the potential big upside in a worst case scenario situation.  I suppose if I were the sole income, it would seem more mandatory, or more foolish to *not* have it since we are nowhere near FI. 

Just feel like I could use some fresh thoughts on the matter.  Thanks.



CrustyBadger

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2022, 04:03:02 PM »
One piece of information to factor in is that if you are paying for the disability insurance premium yourself, with no employer contribution, then the entire benefit would be tax free.

https://www.irs.gov/faqs/interest-dividends-other-types-of-income/life-insurance-disability-insurance-proceeds/life-insurance-disability-insurance-proceeds-1#:~:text=You%20must%20report%20as%20income,payments%20is%20reported%20as%20income.

"If you pay the entire cost of a health or accident insurance plan, don't include any amounts you receive for your disability as income on your tax return."

SSDI does provide disability coverage for people who have worked long enough to qualify, and it also provides a benefit for your minor children until age 18 or graduating from high school, which is a very nice benefit. It is generally harder to qualify for SSDI than for private long term disability approval.  Often the long term disability companies will require you to apply for SSDI and if approved will reduce your benefit by the amount SSDI is covering so that is something to look into as well. SSDI approval does come with automatic Medicare coverage after 2 years.



snic

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2022, 04:57:19 PM »
Dual income family.  We can comfortably live off of either one of our incomes.

There are two ways to look at it. On one hand, if you become disabled, your spouse could support the family, so why spend the $$ on LTD insurance? On the other hand, consider that your spouse would then have to work quite a bit longer until retirement should you become disabled tomorrow without having LTD insurance. Not only that, but it seems you are saying that you are currently living off one income while saving the other income. It seems to me that gives you the financial security to not have to worry about the few thousand dollars per year to insure your income, and that $25k might be a small price to pay for the peace of mind.

Another thing to think about is that if you're really going to FIRE in 7 years, you could pay for LTD insurance for the first few years, then drop it when you're 1 or 2 or 3 years away - because the number of years your spouse would have to work to make up the difference should you become disabled will gradually drop as you get closer to FIRE, so the value of LTD insurance will drop.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2022, 06:27:36 PM »
What are peoples thoughts on paying significant premiums for LTD insurance?  I'm seeing $284/month for $4,000/month benefit until age 65(14 years, I'm 51).  This seems like an awful lot of money I can't invest between now and FI.
I decided against getting disability insurance because I figured the chances of something being drastic enough to leave me unable to work, but not severe enough to kill me were quite small since I'm a desk jockey.

Life in Balance

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2022, 08:15:06 PM »
Don't assume that LTD insurance will actually pay your claim if you were to end up needing to make one.  They're very good at dragging the process out waiting for your SS disability to be approved and/or just denying your claim.  Their process can be very opaque.

In your case, looking at FI in seven years, I'd skip it and focus on saving.

yachi

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2022, 09:20:52 PM »
A few things not mentioned that I think are important:

1.  How risky is your job - it makes more sense to pay a high premium if you have a dangerous job that regularly lands people on LTD.
2.  Similar to above, how physically demanding is your job?  Regular office work like programming, or drafting can be still be done by people with significant physical disabilities, reducing the possibility that you'd qualify for LTD, or that you'd even want to pursue it.
3.  How much faster do you reach FI with the extra $3400+ per year?
4.  Is your FI goal being achieved primarily by savings rather than grown of the existing 'stash?  If it's mostly grown of the existing 'stash, you'd get there anyway even if one of you loses the job and you have reduced savings.

I'd lean toward not carrying it if you have a typical office job, with little danger of something crushing you, and a significant 'stash built up already. 

Metalcat

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2022, 07:42:54 AM »
Don't assume that LTD insurance will actually pay your claim if you were to end up needing to make one.  They're very good at dragging the process out waiting for your SS disability to be approved and/or just denying your claim.  Their process can be very opaque.

In your case, looking at FI in seven years, I'd skip it and focus on saving.

Yup.

And they make us all sign NDAs, so you can't actually look up what the norm is for just how low they tend to settle.

Their usual MO is to deny, drag it out, put you under surveillance, lie, and rack up your legal bill so that you will just give up.

From what I've gathered from people willing to break their NDAs, usually people settle for 30-60 cents on the dollar value of the policy after inflation is factored in.

Meaning, if your policy is $4000/mo and you're 40, then it's dollar value is around 1.2M, but $4000/mo is worth a lot less 25 years from now, so the policy might be valued at somewhere around half of that.

So if you get 30% of ~600K, you could be looking at a settlement of 180K minus legal fees.

Ending up with less than a quarter of what you thought you would get, after a year+ of being put through total hell is not unusual. And they know full well that people tend to be at their emotional lowest during the early days of disability and career loss when they are making these claims, and they capitalize on that.

And that's assuming you have an "own occupation" policy where you are only claiming disability from your own profession. If you have to claim disability from all possible paid work, you will have to be epically FUCKED UP to qualify for a claim.

Also, "own profession" doesn't mean "own job." So if there are jobs you could do under the umbrella of your own occupation, then those can impact eligibility and settlement process.

I very clearly can't do my own job, but there is an argument to be made that I could perform a range of jobs within my profession.

Then there are the consequences if they *do* actually approve you. Remember that surveillance I mentioned? Yeah. They don't just leave you alone and pay you monthly until 65. They monitor you and constantly look for evidence that you should be kicked off the plan. Typically you have to delete all social media, and take other precautions. Also, you often have to be treated by *their* medical team, which creates a whole slew of medical documentation biased to their interpretation of your condition.

Then what happens is they try to offer you a shitty settlement. They don't keep people on the plan until 65, they usually keep them on for a few years, wear them down, build a medical case with their staff in their favour, and then offer a settlement and hope that you don't legally fight it, but if you do, they've already set you up to have a weaker case than you did when you first applied.

For me, the policy was worth it. I barely paid anything for it for a decade, only paid "own occupation" premiums for one year, and I'm a medical professional with an army of doctors behind me, and the best lawyer in the business on my side.

I can't say how it went because of the NDA, but I will say that I think both sides perceived it as a loss, which is about as much of a win as one can hope for in these cases.

I also *thought* I had a realistic expectation, I knew anything over 50% would be a huge win. However, what I wasn't aware of was all of the industry standard conditions applied to the initial amount that would drastically lower what I *thought* I was applying 50% to.

So my percentage expectations were realistic, but my starting number wasn't. With inflation, offsets, etc, the process of getting to a starting number that both sides agree upon before negotiations of percentages, it's crazy how that big number can tumble before the negotiations even begin.

So is the policy worth it? It was for me, and I learned A LOT about myself in the process, but it was a total nightmare and left me with a lot less money than I expected.

Make your decision with eyes open about that. Not based on the numbers you see on paper.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 07:47:52 AM by Malcat »

EchoStache

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2022, 08:14:36 AM »
My job is semi-physical i.e. not completely sedentary at a desk, but also not manual physical labor.  I'm an ultrasound tech so it's pretty easy work but does require me to be physically able.  I guess my other thought is that, if I were to become physically disabled such that I could no longer do *that* job, I would probably just figure out what I *could* do in order to stay productive and continue earning money.

FI is only going to happen with high income and a high savings rate for the next 7 years minimum.....I can't coast to FI as my current stash is quite small.

We keep a healthy emergency fund, are debt averse(but not debt free) and have two strong incomes so maybe I'll just consider SS as our disability plans.

Metalcat

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2022, 08:24:02 AM »
My job is semi-physical i.e. not completely sedentary at a desk, but also not manual physical labor.  I'm an ultrasound tech so it's pretty easy work but does require me to be physically able.  I guess my other thought is that, if I were to become physically disabled such that I could no longer do *that* job, I would probably just figure out what I *could* do in order to stay productive and continue earning money.

FI is only going to happen with high income and a high savings rate for the next 7 years minimum.....I can't coast to FI as my current stash is quite small.

We keep a healthy emergency fund, are debt averse(but not debt free) and have two strong incomes so maybe I'll just consider SS as our disability plans.

Is the policy you are looking at a general policy or an "own occupation" policy? That's very important.

EchoStache

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2022, 08:41:12 AM »
They offer both options....the rate I quoted was "own occupation".  The other challenge in stomaching the premium is that even at $4,000/month, its only replacing 30-40% of my income, and no company will offer 60-70% of my total income since almost half of what I earn is not W-2 wages.  Regardless, I wouldn't be willing to pay the premium for a policy that paid $6-$7k per month if I'm already balking on one that pays $4k.


Metalcat

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Re: Undecided about long term disability insurance
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2022, 10:52:10 AM »
They offer both options....the rate I quoted was "own occupation".  The other challenge in stomaching the premium is that even at $4,000/month, its only replacing 30-40% of my income, and no company will offer 60-70% of my total income since almost half of what I earn is not W-2 wages.  Regardless, I wouldn't be willing to pay the premium for a policy that paid $6-$7k per month if I'm already balking on one that pays $4k.

Yep, own occupation insurance is very expensive.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!