Author Topic: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity  (Read 8922 times)

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2024, 02:41:38 PM »
I'd like to dig into this a bit more if you don't mind. You mention "expenses" of 20-40% for umbrella insurance...is this largely the cost of the legal representation on behalf of the insured, while the "loss ratio" represents the actual amount of liability paid out in settlements?

Allocated loss adjustment expenses (ALAE or "eh-lay") are included in the loss ratio, and that's where you'd see the legal fees on individual claims. UNallocated loss adjustment expenses (ULAE or "you-lay") are included in the expense ratio, and you would find claim adjuster and claim legal salaries here. Expenses are higher on umbrella insurance because there's usually more "touch" on that as a line of business, so higher acquisition costs, and also generally higher reinsurance costs, at least as a percentage of premium since it's also a smaller line. ULAE doesn't tend to be meaningfully higher on Umbrella than non-Umbrella lines.

As for the profitability of this coverage, I personally find that to be a mostly irrelevant consideration when deciding whether to buy this insurance or not. For reference I pay $240 for a $2 million umbrella. Imagine an umbrella insurance marketplace with competition pushing prices down to the 100% ratio that we see in the homeowners insurance marketplace. Instead of $240 the premium would instead be somewhere in the range of $120-216. Would it be nice if this was the case and the premiums were a bit lower? Sure. This however does not seem like a meaningful enough difference that it should change the buy/no buy decision for most people.

Correct. The market dynamics aren't there to push umbrella premiums down, even though the math says they should be. The thing about Umbrella is that the results are more volatile than other lines, and it'll be a decade or more before the industry knows whether they actually made money on the $240 policies they sold in 2024. That tends to worry insurance execs more than it should, but Umbrella is a smaller line in the industry and the larger lines (homeowners and auto for personal lines) feel more stable and less risky, even to people who (IMHO) should know better.

This ratio of ~$200 in costs out of a $2 million limit indicates the insurance company expects a six-figure (or higher) cost somewhere on the order of 1 in 1,000 customers each year. Personally this seems a likely enough occurrence that I'll pay a bit of money to know that it's handled. I have no experience selecting a good attorney to defend me against a lawsuit. The insurance company does. Knowing I shouldn't have to worry much about that part of things is a big benefit of the insurance in my mind.

One thing to keep in mind is that umbrella insurance sits on top of your regular homeowner's and auto insurance.  So the first $300K or $500K of any payout is covered by the underlying insurance; the umbrella only handles the amount over that.  My only point here is that if you're looking at the cost/benefit or the insurer's profitability, you'd need to include the cost and coverage of the homeowner's/auto policies in that analysis.

The actual math is super complicated, but I'll do my best here. (Paging any actuaries who want to chime in.)

$240 in premium for a $2M umbrella over let's just say $500k primary limits means that, for every 10,000 customers exactly like you, your insurance company expects to pay out less than $2.4M in losses and expenses. (Or, possibly slightly over that, if the interest rate environment is good.) Losses are more variable than expenses, so let's assume that they expect maybe a 30% expense ratio, which would leave $1.68M or less for expected losses.

So that's like one claim out of 10,000 customers, since we're looking at $1.5M of net coverage plus defense expenses, right?

It's probably more like 4-10, but it really depends on the exact development patterns which will vary by how risky you are as a customer and what your state legal environment is like. The most pressing issue is "frequency of severity", claims that are just over the primary limit, rather than limits losses. Speaking for commercial insurance now, because I'm sure it's different on the personal side, it used to be that about 1% of primary liability claims eventually hit the umbrella, and now it's more like 2%, because the standard primary limits haven't changed in decades and $1M or $500k or $300k doesn't buy what it used to.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2024, 02:51:35 PM by merula »

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4208
  • Location: WDC
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2024, 03:29:57 PM »
I've paid $117 for $1M in DC.  Over the past 3 years, it increased from being under $120 for each of the past 10 years to now $300/year.  No idea why my rates went up.  I have Geico/Travelers  Tried to change my insurance to state farm, but because I had a speeding ticket (camera), I can't get lower rates on my bundle. 

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7475
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2024, 03:41:07 PM »

The actual math is super complicated, but I'll do my best here. (Paging any actuaries who want to chime in.)

$240 in premium for a $2M umbrella over let's just say $500k primary limits means that, for every 10,000 customers exactly like you, your insurance company expects to pay out less than $2.4M in losses and expenses. (Or, possibly slightly over that, if the interest rate environment is good.) Losses are more variable than expenses, so let's assume that they expect maybe a 30% expense ratio, which would leave $1.68M or less for expected losses.

So that's like one claim out of 10,000 customers, since we're looking at $1.5M of net coverage plus defense expenses, right?

It's probably more like 4-10, but it really depends on the exact development patterns which will vary by how risky you are as a customer and what your state legal environment is like. The most pressing issue is "frequency of severity", claims that are just over the primary limit, rather than limits losses. Speaking for commercial insurance now, because I'm sure it's different on the personal side, it used to be that about 1% of primary liability claims eventually hit the umbrella, and now it's more like 2%, because the standard primary limits haven't changed in decades and $1M or $500k or $300k doesn't buy what it used to.

That all basically squares with my back-of-the-envelope assumptions. I'm assuming the claim values are on a pretty skewed long-tail distribution such that most claims are well below the $2 million limit. If I'm wrong about that and we actually see a significant fraction of claims bumping right into the $2 million limit, and actual liability in excess of $2 million is a 1 in 10,000 event, that would be a sign that someone whose goal buying this insurance is to actually cover the full liability so they don't need to worry about judgements over their limit should actually buy more coverage. Otherwise if my assumption about the distribution does hold, that probably means out of the 10,000 customers the company would expect a bit less than one claim in the $1-2 million range, maybe a couple in the $500k-$1 million range, plus several more in the $100k-500k range; all adds up to somewhere on the order of 10 out of 10,000 customers making a claim in the 6-7 figures.

I'd like to believe I'm pretty well-equipped to self-insure for these lower-value claims. Paying someone $100k to settle a lawsuit wouldn't really move the needle on my long-term financial picture. Once we get up to the $500k or $1 million or $2 million level, the 1 in 10,000 sort of thing, that's an amount where paying someone out of pocket could really hurt and I'd very much appreciate having the insurance. And again, without the insurance on a lower-valued incident it's entirely possible I select a lawyer who's bad at negotiating and I would end up paying $300k when the insurance company's lawyer would be able to settle for $100k.

GilesMM

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2473
  • Location: PNW
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2024, 05:12:11 PM »
From a pure risk perspective, no one really needs high limits on the primary or an Umbrella policy. The insurance industry overall makes a TON of money* on that coverage, and has for decades. Any given individual is very, very, very unlikely to get involved in a lawsuit that goes that high, and if they are, there are a lot of ways to protect assets other than insurance.

That said, it does happen, and if it makes you feel better to have that coverage, it's pretty cheap peace of mind.

...

*Insurance profitability side note: the industry measures profitability with "combined ratios", which is the loss ratio (losses over premium) plus expense ratio (expenses over premium). Umbrella loss ratios long-term are 30-50%, and expenses are 20-40% (higher than a lot of other lines), putting the combined ratio around 50-90%. Anything under 100% is profitable, but over 100% can also be profitable given that insurance companies invest the money, and Umbrella as a long-tail line has an outsized share of investment income. For comparison, personal auto as a whole has been in the 110s for more than a decade, and homeowners has been around 100 for about 7 years.

I'd like to dig into this a bit more if you don't mind. You mention "expenses" of 20-40% for umbrella insurance...is this largely the cost of the legal representation on behalf of the insured, while the "loss ratio" represents the actual amount of liability paid out in settlements?

As for the profitability of this coverage, I personally find that to be a mostly irrelevant consideration when deciding whether to buy this insurance or not. For reference I pay $240 for a $2 million umbrella. Imagine an umbrella insurance marketplace with competition pushing prices down to the 100% ratio that we see in the homeowners insurance marketplace. Instead of $240 the premium would instead be somewhere in the range of $120-216. Would it be nice if this was the case and the premiums were a bit lower? Sure. This however does not seem like a meaningful enough difference that it should change the buy/no buy decision for most people.

This ratio of ~$200 in costs out of a $2 million limit indicates the insurance company expects a six-figure (or higher) cost somewhere on the order of 1 in 1,000 customers each year. Personally this seems a likely enough occurrence that I'll pay a bit of money to know that it's handled. I have no experience selecting a good attorney to defend me against a lawsuit. The insurance company does. Knowing I shouldn't have to worry much about that part of things is a big benefit of the insurance in my mind.


The payout will be for attorney fees on a lot of claims which either settle for small amounts (<$100k above the underlying coverage) or go to trial but the defendant prevails.  The odds of a typical insured having over a million dollar claim paid out are something like 1 in 10 million or higher.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7475
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2024, 06:40:25 PM »
Is there publicly available data on that? I'd love to see how common these larger payouts actually are.

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2024, 10:40:36 AM »
I've paid $117 for $1M in DC.  Over the past 3 years, it increased from being under $120 for each of the past 10 years to now $300/year.  No idea why my rates went up.  I have Geico/Travelers  Tried to change my insurance to state farm, but because I had a speeding ticket (camera), I can't get lower rates on my bundle. 

It's going up because insurance execs are really afraid of missing a liability severity environment like the late 80s-early 90s, and because there's not a corresponding competitive pressure to lower rates. If you think $300 is more that you should be paying for $1M of excess coverage, you are almost certainly factually correct. However, there are enough people buying umbrellas as peace of mind coverage like @seattlecyclone  that the market is relatively price insensitive between $150ish and $500ish.

That all basically squares with my back-of-the-envelope assumptions. I'm assuming the claim values are on a pretty skewed long-tail distribution such that most claims are well below the $2 million limit. If I'm wrong about that and we actually see a significant fraction of claims bumping right into the $2 million limit, and actual liability in excess of $2 million is a 1 in 10,000 event, that would be a sign that someone whose goal buying this insurance is to actually cover the full liability so they don't need to worry about judgements over their limit should actually buy more coverage. Otherwise if my assumption about the distribution does hold, that probably means out of the 10,000 customers the company would expect a bit less than one claim in the $1-2 million range, maybe a couple in the $500k-$1 million range, plus several more in the $100k-500k range; all adds up to somewhere on the order of 10 out of 10,000 customers making a claim in the 6-7 figures.

I'd like to believe I'm pretty well-equipped to self-insure for these lower-value claims. Paying someone $100k to settle a lawsuit wouldn't really move the needle on my long-term financial picture. Once we get up to the $500k or $1 million or $2 million level, the 1 in 10,000 sort of thing, that's an amount where paying someone out of pocket could really hurt and I'd very much appreciate having the insurance. And again, without the insurance on a lower-valued incident it's entirely possible I select a lawyer who's bad at negotiating and I would end up paying $300k when the insurance company's lawyer would be able to settle for $100k.

You are correct on all counts. (I was trying to avoid assuming that everyone knows what a skewed long-tail distribution is.)

Is there publicly available data on that? I'd love to see how common these larger payouts actually are.

Not that I'm aware of. That data isn't even widely shared within the insurance companies. But then, I haven't gone looking for it externally either.

The data that's widely shared is meant to fear-monger. "Look at all these one-off cases that might happen, buy more insurance."

GilesMM

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2473
  • Location: PNW
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2024, 09:58:32 PM »
Is there publicly available data on that? I'd love to see how common these larger payouts actually are.


The insurers don't like to share it but some attorneys like to boast.


https://topverdict.com/lists/2022/united-states/top-100-personal-injury-settlements


You will see if you were to lose a $2 million settlement it would put you in the top 100 settlements of the year.  You will note that 90% of those cases are against companies, governments and doctors.  The rest are motor vehicle cases.  I didn't count but there might be 10 personal cases in there.  So you have a 10/333,000,000 chance of needing more than $2 million insurance any particular year.  Not a huge risk for an insurer to take on.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7475
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2024, 10:59:31 PM »
Top 100 settlements of the year...that don't have confidential amounts attached and that this one particular website has been told about. Those seem like they might be some pretty big caveats.

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2024, 07:20:19 AM »
The personal injury attorneys also like to boast that (1) they can get you massive payouts all the time and (2) that's why you need to call them after every auto or workplace accident.

The insurance companies don't share that large settlements are rare because that would hamper their ability to sell this incredibly profitable line of coverage.

And there's not a lot of demand in the media for stories like "is [situation] actually not as bad as we've previously portrayed it? we look at the facts and it turns out, yeah!"

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2024, 01:57:49 PM »
@Fru-Gal , I heard you, and I fully agree with you. As I said earlier:

From a pure risk perspective, no one really needs high limits on the primary or an Umbrella policy. The insurance industry overall makes a TON of money* on that coverage, and has for decades. Any given individual is very, very, very unlikely to get involved in a lawsuit that goes that high, and if they are, there are a lot of ways to protect assets other than insurance.

That said, it does happen, and if it makes you feel better to have that coverage, it's pretty cheap peace of mind.

Different people have different risk appetites. I don't want to pay an extra $250/year on the miniscule chance a $2M thing happens to me, but I do but $1M primary limits. Other people might be totally OK with their state minimum auto liability limits (usually around $30k), while for another group $250 is worth the peace of mind. There's not a right answer to risk appetite.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2201
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2024, 01:17:14 PM »
Thank you, @merula. That is a good way to frame it, as different perceived risk levels.

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2391
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2024, 01:25:22 PM »
I've looked into umbrella a couple times and figured it wasn't worth it for us since all our assets are in retirement accounts and our home (protected in my state).  I'm super jealous of your home insurance only being $800 or $1k, that's a steal.  I decided to re-look at umbrella once my kids are driving since that seems to increase risk a lot.
I may be wrong but I believe some retirements accounts (IRAs) can be taken in a law suit. As well as wages garnished if still working. Plus you'd be on the hook for all legal fees. Umbrella insurance is pretty cheap for a lot of extra coverage.

Depends where you live whether IRAs are protected. But IMO, if you don't have at least $1M of liability o protect others in case you eff up their lives royally through accident, you are being unnecessarily cheap.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 01:30:28 PM by tj »

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6187
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2024, 09:35:16 AM »
Umbrella insurance for a couple million, whether practically useful or not, is a cheap way for me to sleep at night.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2024, 10:28:12 AM »
Thanks @merula    Umbrella insurance is something I've been thinking about for a while, this thread has helped clarify things.

obstinate

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2024, 09:34:48 PM »
As I get wealthier, I find my risk tolerance to be very low, and I'm willing to pay a fair amount to mitigate those risks that can be mitigated. Maybe it's irrational but I want to close off as many avenues for misfortune as my money reasonably can. We carry ~ out net worth in umbrella coverage. It costs $800 a year or so, bundled with our home insurance. Well worth it to me.

startingsmall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2024, 01:41:37 PM »
Rates for umbrella insurance can vary a lot, based on location and other factors. Our umbrella coverage rate doubled when we moved to Florida, even though we stayed with State Farm. We currently pay $720/yr for $1 million, bundled with our home/auto insurance.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2024, 09:12:28 AM »
Just got my umbrella renewal, and it has more than doubled.  Was ~300/yr, now >600/yr.  Not sure why the >100% increase, have a call out to the insurance company and will see what they say when they respond.

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2391
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2024, 08:25:55 PM »
I increased my umbrella from $1M to $2M. It went from $150 to $250, I think.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2024, 05:35:24 AM »
Just got my umbrella renewal, and it has more than doubled.  Was ~300/yr, now >600/yr.  Not sure why the >100% increase, have a call out to the insurance company and will see what they say when they respond.

My agent claims the increase is due to lawyers going after people for car accidents mostly, as well as an increasing number of uninsured motorists.  I have Allstate.  We are grandfathered into a 2M policy, but my agent says they no longer offer anything above 1M.  I'm getting the feeling Allstate is struggling...insurance has been going up dramatically across the board for the last couple of years, but this is the first time something has doubled in one cycle.

GilesMM

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2473
  • Location: PNW
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2024, 06:21:00 AM »
Just got my umbrella renewal, and it has more than doubled.  Was ~300/yr, now >600/yr.  Not sure why the >100% increase, have a call out to the insurance company and will see what they say when they respond.

My agent claims the increase is due to lawyers going after people for car accidents mostly, as well as an increasing number of uninsured motorists.  I have Allstate.  We are grandfathered into a 2M policy, but my agent says they no longer offer anything above 1M.  I'm getting the feeling Allstate is struggling...insurance has been going up dramatically across the board for the last couple of years, but this is the first time something has doubled in one cycle.


Allstate had six consecutive quarters of losses starting mid 2022 but they are doing better the last twelve months and posted good results 3Q2024 with both higher rates and higher claims.

LaineyAZ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2024, 06:22:06 AM »
Just got my umbrella renewal, and it has more than doubled.  Was ~300/yr, now >600/yr.  Not sure why the >100% increase, have a call out to the insurance company and will see what they say when they respond.

My agent claims the increase is due to lawyers going after people for car accidents mostly, as well as an increasing number of uninsured motorists.  I have Allstate.  We are grandfathered into a 2M policy, but my agent says they no longer offer anything above 1M.  I'm getting the feeling Allstate is struggling...insurance has been going up dramatically across the board for the last couple of years, but this is the first time something has doubled in one cycle.

Interesting, because there's a personal injury lawyer on YouTube who says Allstate is one of the worst for paying claims, so they have to be sued.  Maybe it's a vicious cycle?  Refuse to pay claims, get sued, have to pay out a higher amount, then have to raise rates, etc.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2024, 07:46:26 AM »
Just got my umbrella renewal, and it has more than doubled.  Was ~300/yr, now >600/yr.  Not sure why the >100% increase, have a call out to the insurance company and will see what they say when they respond.

My agent claims the increase is due to lawyers going after people for car accidents mostly, as well as an increasing number of uninsured motorists.  I have Allstate.  We are grandfathered into a 2M policy, but my agent says they no longer offer anything above 1M.  I'm getting the feeling Allstate is struggling...insurance has been going up dramatically across the board for the last couple of years, but this is the first time something has doubled in one cycle.

Interesting, because there's a personal injury lawyer on YouTube who says Allstate is one of the worst for paying claims, so they have to be sued.  Maybe it's a vicious cycle?  Refuse to pay claims, get sued, have to pay out a higher amount, then have to raise rates, etc.

Idk what's up, but I'm getting quotes from other companies - this stood out to me because my umbrella insurance has been pretty inexpensive and the rate has been pretty stable vs other insurance products up until this renewal.  I understand some increases, but I can't see the justification for doubling it.

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2024, 07:58:00 AM »
My agent claims the increase is due to lawyers going after people for car accidents mostly, as well as an increasing number of uninsured motorists.  I have Allstate.  We are grandfathered into a 2M policy, but my agent says they no longer offer anything above 1M.  I'm getting the feeling Allstate is struggling...insurance has been going up dramatically across the board for the last couple of years, but this is the first time something has doubled in one cycle.

You should talk to an independent agent and see if you can get a better deal. I would bet money you can, especially if all your exposure is in CT.

This is the core problem with companies with captive agents (Allstate, State Farm, Farmers, American Family). Your agent works for Allstate, they have no other carriers they work with to really understand the insurance market, and they pass along the company line blaming plaintiffs' attorneys without another thought.

Now, granted, you'll find a LOT of people who work in insurance who will complain about the plaintiff's bar. If you'll allow me to get up on my soapbox a minute, I think this is entirely misplaced in the U.S. market. It is true that greater attorney representation rates on claims (and the legal financing mechanisms that are behind some of that) raises insurance company costs, and that gets passed along to customers in the form of higher rates. But internally in the industry, there's all this whining about why attorneys "shouldn't" be involved in claims, and as my therapist says, "should" shows an assumption. And this isn't new; my favorite example is that the 1999 film Big Daddy has as a central plot point that Adam Sandler's character got a big insurance payout and didn't have to work anymore.

The entire role of insurance is to aggregate risk and redistribute it across a large pool to manage costs. We all* pay a small amount for fire coverage knowing that if our house is the one that burns down, insurance will pay to rebuild, and the insurance company takes its cut in profits. The more risk, the more potential insurance profit, as long as the impacted carrier is managing to the actual risk instead of what they think it "should" be.

I also get super annoyed by industry people who advocate for lowering liability limits. As I've mentioned before in this thread, there aren't actually that many limits losses and defense expenses (i.e. fighting all those mean plaintiffs' attorneys) are OUTSIDE of the limits. In the absolute best case, by writing a $1M umbrella limit instead of a $2M limit, you reduce your potential payout from $2.5M (primary & umbrella) plus at least 500k defense to $1.5M plus at least 500k. But that best case is extremely rare, so more likely you've given up $200 in premium on 10,000 policies to save $1M.

Interesting, because there's a personal injury lawyer on YouTube who says Allstate is one of the worst for paying claims, so they have to be sued.  Maybe it's a vicious cycle?  Refuse to pay claims, get sued, have to pay out a higher amount, then have to raise rates, etc.

I can't speak for Allstate, but for my company, the increase in claims where an attorney is representing the claimant is both an increase in the number of claims that get an attorney involved at some point during the life of the claim, and an increase "at first rep", meaning claims that get started with an attorney to begin with. It would be odd if insurance company behavior was the real driver for liability losses, since the claimants are not the policyholders, but I can see that happening with property claims (it's huge in Florida, for example).

*Except for those people with a substantial stache and admirable risk tolerance who choose to self-insure.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2379
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2024, 08:22:50 AM »
Thanks, merula, I think you're right that it is time for an independent agent.  How do you find a good one other than word of mouth?

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2391
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2024, 08:30:35 AM »
Thanks, merula, I think you're right that it is time for an independent agent.  How do you find a good one other than word of mouth?

my experience was that the "independent agent" was useless when I had a claim. Their website had lots of marketing about "claims assistance", but I dealt with the insurance company adjuster just like any other company. There is no insurance agent out there who is going to be appointed with every insurance company.

What I do is compare premiums for my state on the states department of insurance website and then I go to the insurance company I want a quote from. If they are only sold through agents, then I click find an agent and contact one who is near me. It's possible that agent has other companies that are more attractive, but I don't know a better way. I think ti would be foolish to limit your search to one independent agent because somebody said they have a good reputation.

It really just depends where you are.

In both CA and HI nobody could touch USAA rates for me - but in AZ, I had Auto Owners, Met Life (acquired by Farmers), and AAA at different times, and State Farm was super competitive too. USAA was very not competitive in AZ.  Insurance is weird.

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2024, 08:45:21 AM »
Thanks, merula, I think you're right that it is time for an independent agent.  How do you find a good one other than word of mouth?

You can search "[your city] independent insurance agent" and then go by reviews and also whether it seems like they have a decent number of represented carriers shown on their websites. You want more than 5 at a bare minimum, but any more than 10 probably doesn't matter unless you're not seeing any big names you recognize.

You can also put out a word of mouth request on social media, either on your own feed or in a local group, but with how most people understand insurance you probably won't be able to effectively ask for just independent agents. (On the other hand, if you're anywhere near Hartford, you have a much better shot at that being understood than anywhere else in the country.)

my experience was that the "independent agent" was useless when I had a claim. Their website had lots of marketing about "claims assistance", but I dealt with the insurance company adjuster just like any other company. There is no insurance agent out there who is going to be appointed with every insurance company.

What I do is compare premiums for my state on the states department of insurance website and then I go to the insurance company I want a quote from. If they are only sold through agents, then I click find an agent and contact one who is near me. It's possible that agent has other companies that are more attractive, but I don't know a better way. I think ti would be foolish to limit your search to one independent agent because somebody said they have a good reputation.

It really just depends where you are.

In both CA and HI nobody could touch USAA rates for me - but in AZ, I had Auto Owners, Met Life (acquired by Farmers), and AAA at different times, and State Farm was super competitive too. USAA was very not competitive in AZ.  Insurance is weird.

A lot of the benefit is them shopping around for you. Most state DOIs don't have nearly the amount of public transparency that CA does, and CT in particular is pretty opaque due to how strong the insurance lobby is in the state.

In addition, not every state requires rate filings for every line, or requires an amount of detail that would allow someone to determine what the best price for them is going to be, so even if every DOI shared as much publicly as CA does, if the state doesn't require the rate filing, the DOI isn't even going to have it to share.

An independent agent isn't likely to get involved in an average claim, unless you're a major customer of theirs. (And let's face it, mustachians are unlikely to have enough stuff to insure to become a major customer.) They can advocate for you in claim disputes, and you can go after their E&O insurance if they screwed something up. (For example, if you told them you wanted Uninsured Motorist coverage, and they didn't actually get you a policy that had it, or if they said your contents limit should be lower than what your actual contents cost.)

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2391
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2024, 08:52:43 AM »
Are you an insurance agent?

There is no insurance agent out that that can do a complete and comprehensive "shopping around".

It is in a consumer's best interest to do their own shopping around to include multiple independent agents and other options.

IMO it is foolish to just talk to one insurance agent, regardless of if they are independent or not.


One can also check the market share report for their state. If a lot of people are using it, it can't hurt to get a quote from said company.

https://content.naic.org/sites/default/files/publication-msr-pb-property-casualty.pdf
« Last Edit: November 19, 2024, 08:55:15 AM by tj »

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2024, 09:15:32 AM »
I work for an insurance carrier that works with independent agents. In my first decade-ish in the industry, I was a commercial P&C underwriter, so I had a fairly adversarial relationship with agents given that we were on opposite sides of every negotiation. I've spend the last decade in internal-facing roles, so I'm no longer in contact with agents.

If you'd like to spend your time shopping around yourself, knock yourself out. You're the target market of direct-to-consumer insurance, and that's probably a better ROE for you than shopping through agents.

Agent/carrier agreements require that the "agent of record" (the first in the door with a given customer) is the only one who will get a quote, meaning there's not a lot of benefit in talking to multiple independent agents who represent the same carriers. If you talk to Agent X first, and they say they're going to get you quotes from Chubb, Cincinnati, Geico, Hanover, Hartford, Hanover, and Travelers, and then you talk to Agent Y, that Agent Y will not be able to get quotes for you from any of the carriers that Agent X was first in at.

There can be a benefit if you're working with agents who have very different carrier groups, but that's pretty rare unless you're looking for Excess & Surplus lines insurance.

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2391
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: Umbrella insurance rates/necessity
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2024, 09:20:12 AM »

There can be a benefit if you're working with agents who have very different carrier groups, but that's pretty rare unless you're looking for Excess & Surplus lines insurance.

My experience is that it is not rare to find agents that represent different from each other. That was the whole reason I mentioned it.

There are a lot of insurance companies that are not available to DTC, so you have to go through an agent to get a quote - and agents cant sell you DTC policies. It would be nice if it was a less of a hassle and less opaque.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!