Author Topic: FI Imposter  (Read 4037 times)

catccc

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FI Imposter
« on: January 11, 2022, 12:41:59 AM »
I think I may be an FI imposter.  Or just a thrill of the chase kinda gal?  In 2019, I told myself that $1.375M was our number.  In January of 2021, when our NW was $1.6, I told myself (and my family and some friends) that I was going to ask for a sabbatical the summer of 2022, and if it wasn't granted, I was going to pull the plug on working.  I anticipated that I would be somewhere just past $2.0M saved at the time.

In the last couple months, I've had an opportunity at work that I want to take, and taking it would render a sabbatical this summer unlikely.  I also read about someone retiring early with $4.0M.  IDK why, because I see plenty of people all the time here and elsewhere saving to a variety of different figures, but this time when I saw the $4.0M, it called to me and seemed such a nice number.  Enough is elusive, but if my family spends $50-$70K a year, $4.0M is overkill.  So IDK, maybe $3.0M is the right number.

Anyone else out there that just continually moves their target?!

« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 01:14:32 AM by catccc »

NotJen

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 05:55:47 AM »
Sure, people change and update their goals all the time (also, search for threads on 'OMY syndrome').  What made you want to pursue FIRE in the first place?  Have those conditions changed?

Are you delaying quitting because of fear or because you legitimately like your job?  You need to be honest with yourself. 

If you like the principals of MMM, but also enjoy working, you could consider donating a significant portion of your salary to charity once you truly have enough for your family.

boarder42

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2022, 06:08:04 AM »
sounds like you need to spend your time focusing on the mental side of RE.  I have a conversation daily with a coworker in almost your exact scenario.  He should be FI now but what If's spending forever.

I think at this point the sabbatical is more important than your new work opportunity.  And if your work forgoes that due to a sabbatical then they aren't in the business of work life balance and just use people. 

Sounds like you're already FI - take the sabbatical treat it like retirement and see how it feels.  This is basically what I did last summer and it was amazing. And now i'm RE in 6 working days.

FLBiker

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2022, 07:52:36 AM »
We have a similar spending rate (last year was ~65K) and my target is $2.0M.  We're currently sitting at around $1.4M, and I was thinking I'd go down to part-time this year, but I'm enjoying my job and I get a good amount of time off, so I'm now leaning towards just staying full-time until we hit $2M.  To me, $3M or $4M seems like overkill.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2022, 08:11:56 AM »
There could be a number of things going on here, none of which are exclusive -

1.  Prices for things that you want / need are going up (food, maybe updating the house, vacations) - so you want a guarantee your FI keeps up with this 'personal rate of inflation'
2.  Your ER budget is higher than your current budget, or you haven't done the numbers
3.  Your concept of Enough (John Bogle wrote a whole book about it, as well as another good book I read, The Number) hasn't been defined, so you default to 'more is better'
4.  You are suffering from 'comparison is the thief of joy' syndrome
5.  You just don't like uncertainty or still hold on to a dream of owning / living some $$$$ fantasy (not typically a Mustachian problem, but putting it here for completeness)

Sounds like you have work to do.  When you really 'get it' that you're FI, you realize that the extra money coming in isn't for you anymore.  All the money you will ever spend is already in your "bank account", plus extra that you should probably figure out how to make the world a better place with.  Sure, it's nice to see the numbers go up and maybe beat back the inner bag lady or whatever in the early days, but once you have lived long enough with the feeling 'holy cow, I'm spending too much, but I can afford it and even cut back if I need to' and that spending level is 3% or less SWR, then you really have to let the FI Imposter feelings go...  There are simple solutions (mainly just educating yourself and putting in more time) to the list above.

yachi

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2022, 08:13:11 AM »
Hey fellow PA mustachian!  Some people eventually get to where they have so much saved up that it could provide a higher income than they make at their jobs.

I always thought my number was 1.2 Million, but luckily got to 1.5 just a month or so after I passed my goal.  I watched it from May 2021 to December 2021 to make sure the $1.5 stuck.  I'm now at $1.9.  With a 4% withdrawal rate, it's 85% of my pre-retirement income.  Accounting for the cost of employer health care and payroll taxes, I'm probably better off retired.  I'm confident I'll find additional ways to save some money with the extra time I'll have.  My last day is Friday!

Dicey

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2022, 08:31:13 AM »
Do you read those articles where people ask an advisor if they have enough to retire? Have you ever noticed the answer is always negative, often citing fears of inflation, illness or what-evah? This whole MMM universe was created to offer an alternate point of view. The answer is, "Yes! Yes, @catccc, you have enough! You CAN do this! Go live an amazing life!!!

meadow lark

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2022, 08:34:27 AM »
Are you living your best life?  You never have to retire.  Living my best life includes not working, so I retired.  If yours includes working that is fine.  Being retired I’m not always happy and content - honestly I am periodically  bored, restless, uncomfortable.  I was the same way when I worked.  Turns out that is about my brain and body, regardless of employment status.  But - I am living my best life (considering there is a pandemic).

reeshau

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2022, 08:50:35 AM »
First, there's nothing wrong with enjoying what you are doing, and getting paid for it.  aka enjoying work.

But, as others have mentioned, I don't think it's really the number that is keeping you from pulling the trigger.  There is some anxiety that you need to figure out.  I would have said a sabbatical might be the perfect way to work through it--to find there's nothing to be afraid of, or pinpoint things you need to work out.

I would second the suggestion that you do not take this new work opportunity just to build a number beyond your needs.  Rather, find something specific that you will work for.  Maybe it's charity.  Maybe It's to send your nieces and nephews to college.  Whatever it is, if you don't have a goal in mind, then working more, even if enjoyable, may be keeping you from solving this mystery and getting on in your life.  That may make it a net negative.

Good luck on your decision--It's a high-quality problem to have!

Glenstache

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2022, 10:11:49 AM »
Jeff Bezos is making about 8.5 million per hour. That sounds pretty nice too. The point is that there will always be some other nice number and carrot on a stick. This is part of the structure of stock vesting at companies who always want their top talent to work OMY (one more year). At some point, you are on a treadmill and not actually going anywhere in your financial future other than potential for lifestyle inflation. If you do truly love your work, go check out seattlecyclone's journal for an example of working for good.

Start reading the .threads on burnout, coasting, and RE decompression and see what does and doesn't resonate with you. The recommendation to look at the mental side of RE is a good one.

soulpatchmike

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2022, 12:34:40 PM »
I read through your journal and I think part of your issue is life stage.  You have a 13 and 10 year old! 
From my perspective as a parent of 5 kids, it doesn't matter your age or FI status, the daily structure of school for your kids likely drives you and your DH mental time structure.  You have just started the phase of life when you can leave your kids at home without worrying they will kill themselves or their sibling.  It seems normal to leave for the day and return home just like the kids do. It can become a bit hard to justify not working.  Not working would leave a lot of vacant time that would be difficult for many personality types to handle.  You are certainly FI based on the numbers so work for wage really doesn't matter anymore.  Since your DH is still working and certainly doesn't need to, I would focus more on making the most of the time you have left with your kids in the house until your work stops bringing you joy.

For many on this forum with no kids or grown kids moving to that next stage of life anytime you want is less complicated at 30, 40, 50 or 60. Kids change the dynamics of RE for sure.  Unless you have the unique personality that loves the freedom of RE coupled with rigid schedule of sending your kids off to school and meeting them when they come home, it might make the most sense to work another 8 years til the younger one goes to college.  Then decide what you and your DH want to do for the next stage of life together. 

Alternately, maybe you just need to ask yourselves why you were drawn to FIRE in the first place?  If those reasons no longer exist or can coexist with employment, then waiting for the natural transition with the kids aging out of the house might be your best bet.

You never know, maybe you will have so much money that you create another job...giving away a bunch of money before you die.


Weisass

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2022, 01:50:05 PM »
Hey fellow PA mustachian!  Some people eventually get to where they have so much saved up that it could provide a higher income than they make at their jobs.

I always thought my number was 1.2 Million, but luckily got to 1.5 just a month or so after I passed my goal.  I watched it from May 2021 to December 2021 to make sure the $1.5 stuck.  I'm now at $1.9.  With a 4% withdrawal rate, it's 85% of my pre-retirement income.  Accounting for the cost of employer health care and payroll taxes, I'm probably better off retired.  I'm confident I'll find additional ways to save some money with the extra time I'll have.  My last day is Friday!

And hello from another SEPA'er!

I think there isn't much more advice to give here, just want to affirm that its easy to end up comparing yourself to folks whose circumstances you think you know, without really having all the info. Who knows why someone else chose 4million as their number? Who cares? What matters is that you need to ask yourself: why does *more* always feel better than what you have? What if what you already have really is enough? The only way to figure that out is to go back to your math, and get some clarity on your gut.

simonsez

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2022, 01:55:23 PM »
Do whatever makes you happy while considering as many perspectives as possible.

I personally don't have a number I'm shooting for at all.  There are many other non-pecuniary variables/parameters, targets, and milestones that I value more, at least presently.  If my priorities change, I'll adjust as needed. 

The gamification of a particular number as a goal to work toward during the accumulation phase works well for many.  If it doesn't work for you, ask yourself why you think that is and if you should shift to a different paradigm that is more tailored to you or if you should think more deeply about the merits of a particular number and have it represent something real, actionable, and satisfying instead of nebulous and a potential source of anxiety and trepidation.

OP, at least you recognize you're FI.  So maybe you're just a bit of a RE impostor? ;-)

catccc

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2022, 09:36:38 PM »
I am surprised this many people thought this post was worth a response.  So much great feedback and thought provoking questions.
 Sincere thanks!

I mostly wanted to pursue FIRE because in the past work seemed like such drudgery.  I read YMOYL right after college when I was in my first career job.  In my 17 year career, I have had my fair share of excellent jobs and have also had jobs I hated. I'm in a pretty good place in my current job. This is not a job I hate.  My position is 100% remote.  I like my job.  I feel appreciated, like I'm contributing, and well compensated, but I don't love it.  I wouldn't do it for free.  When people say they love their job, I don't believe them unless they assert they would do it for free.  My job just feels like too good of a deal to pass up for the additional security.

Fear of not having enough is definitely part of the equation.  I should make a big important correction.  Our spending ranged from $48K to $57K from 2017-2020.  Last year it was $70K, primarily due to closing costs associated with our first home purchase.  Actually, buying the house was a pre-FIRE move, as we wanted to have the income to qualify for a mortgage.  So, check, got that done.  We'd been looking for years (my 13 year old was an infant when we started) so it's kind of a miracle we actually did it.  Anyway, we bought a house, and we will need to disburse an extra $10.4K over what our (very below market) rent was to cover PITI.  That doesn't include repairs and maintenance.  Or all the fixins people want when they own a home.  So maybe our spending should be solidly $70K, not $50K-$70K.  And I want to travel more in FIRE, so I should tack on something for that.  I fantasize about big trips and worry that I'll have the time for them in RE, but will be too afraid to spend the money.  And I will have to pay for health insurance, so IDK maybe that's another $12K annually?!  (I've looked a little, but need to think about what MAGI will really be to understand what it would cost.  And then what if it changes substantially?!)  So now I'm looking at $82K-$90K?!  I just went from frugal $50K family to nearly fat fire in a paragraph.   Could we really pinch pennies and stay closer to the $50K-$60K mark?  Probably.  But that could be stressful and annoying.

I feel like I used to be really good at loving frugality, and I still think we are relatively frugal, but between this home purchase, inflation, and our NW growing so much over the last couple years, I am tempted to inflate our lifestyle on purpose.

On the mental side of RE...  I have pretty flexible days. I feel like I should be able to accompish more than I do, not having a commute, having this whole house to myself much of the time.  I do worry that time in RE will go to fast and go to nothing.  I know people always say you should be retiring to something and not from something, but IDK what I want to do.  Mostly I just want to have my family life running smoothly and keeping up with self care and for everyone to be happy.  Life is hectic.  I don't even have that much going on, but it feels hectic, anyway.  I want to be a better, more organized parent.  Sheesh, parenting is hard and just gets harder!  I'd trade the teen drama for crying babies any day.  And we've only gotten started.

I will look into OMY, burnout, RE decompression.  I don't want to keep working merely for lifestyle inflation.  I want it for more security.
 And a maybe a little bit of lifestyle inflation in the travel area, once it feels reasonable for us to fly.  We would love to have an extended vacation (a month or two) in Hawaii over the summer with the kids.  I could do a combination of working remotely and taking some time off in lieu of a sabbatical.  I feel like if this is going to happen I need to be planning now, and the pandemic still has me in a mindset of such high uncertainty that planning feels futile. 

I say "I" a lot.  Sorry.  My family is on this journey, too.  And while I don't want to be the mastermind behind it all, it just so happens that I am.  I'm a personal finance enthusiast and always have been.  DH is totally on board with FIRE, wants to quit his job yesterday, but feels obligated to continue working if I do.  So, conversely, I feel obligated to quit sooner so he can.  I think the reality is we will not be so bold as to tender our resignations at the same time, so he may as well go first.  But then he doesn't have anything to retire 'to,' either.  I guess we need to talk about that.

I think I always thought 'when we retire, we'll figure it all out and be living amazingly and efficiently and happily.'  Now that it is so close, I am not totally sold on the benefits it would bring to my family.  We might be better served by DH and I otherwise getting our acts together and live well while working, savoring the time we have with the kids.  That's another idea.  Quit my full time job and do contract work while the kids are in school, but take summers off.  The downside of that is I don't think I could find a more suitable position with comparable pay than what I have now.  Also, the kids are getting older and don't really want to hang out with us as much...

And thank you for the book recommendations. I love to read and learn.  I will check those out.

I feel like there needs to be a special niche of therapists that deal with people like me.





flyingaway

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 10:58:32 PM »
You can easily increase your spending to match your portfolio. (It is much more difficult to reduce spending). Make your goal a round number of $10,000,000.

alm0stk00l

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2022, 11:10:26 PM »
You can easily increase your spending to match your portfolio. (It is much more difficult to reduce spending). Make your goal a round number of $10,000,000.

I feel confident in saying that almost all of us believe that reducing spending is the first step, most important step, and easiest step you can take to improving your lifetime financial circumstance.

FLBiker

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2022, 07:47:03 AM »
I can relate to a lot of what you shared, but something in particular jumped out at me:

I mostly wanted to pursue FIRE because in the past work seemed like such drudgery.  I read YMOYL right after college when I was in my first career job.  In my 17 year career, I have had my fair share of excellent jobs and have also had jobs I hated. I'm in a pretty good place in my current job. This is not a job I hate.  My position is 100% remote.  I like my job.  I feel appreciated, like I'm contributing, and well compensated, but I don't love it.  I wouldn't do it for free.  When people say they love their job, I don't believe them unless they assert they would do it for free.  My job just feels like too good of a deal to pass up for the additional security.

Reading you saying that (which is very much something I would say) I found myself responding "if you don't need the money, you effectively ARE doing it for free".  So thank you for saying this, as I think it will get me to look at my own stance on RE a bit differently.

And I wholeheartedly agree with NOT thinking retirement is the answer to all your problems.  If I'm not careful, I'm definitely prone to "I'll be happy when..." type thinking, and it's simply not true.  We've really made an effort to have balance now, not just in the hypothetical future.  I work full-time (from home, with 39 vacation / holiday days per year).  DW works part-time at a job she really likes, with afternoons and summers off.  I think about going down to part-time, but I feel like it wouldn't be that much less work (as I have a good amount of flexibility now) for the drop in pay.  I'm also not someone who particularly wants (or thrives with) large swaths of unstructured free time (despite the voice in my head saying "I'll be happy when..." about that).

It's funny (to me).  I started off on this path (young, before FIRE was even a term) with a real interest in RE.  I was in highschool, and I had this flash of insight -- every dollar I don't spend is time I don't have to work.  I spent my 20s avoiding full-time work.  Now (45) I'm very interested in FI, but I don't care as much about the RE part.  At the same time, I suspect me that sometime in the next 5 years or so, we'll hit $2M in investments, and it will be increasingly clear that I don't NEED to work anymore.  We shall see...

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2022, 08:49:37 AM »
One other little point to think about in terms of FI + ER, I think about ER now more in terms of tradeoffs on having to figure out my own health insurance for the family, being more active on managing assets (vs. having a matched 401k and other retirement accounts on auto-pilot), etc.  Eliminating going to work, dealing with commute, etc are obvious upsides to ER but there are some downsides too...  Having to fully entertain myself, socialize, give myself 'real' challenges / stay motivated without structure, and other dumb things of that nature could also be a personal failing of mine that my enjoyable job currently solves for me. 

The fact that I'm working for free (working for others is more how I think of it) is icing on the cake.

FIRE 20/20

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2022, 10:57:17 AM »
...
Fear of not having enough is definitely part of the equation.  I should make a big important correction.  Our spending ranged from $48K to $57K from 2017-2020.  Last year it was $70K, primarily due to closing costs associated with our first home purchase.  Actually, buying the house was a pre-FIRE move, as we wanted to have the income to qualify for a mortgage.  So, check, got that done.  We'd been looking for years (my 13 year old was an infant when we started) so it's kind of a miracle we actually did it.  Anyway, we bought a house, and we will need to disburse an extra $10.4K over what our (very below market) rent was to cover PITI.  That doesn't include repairs and maintenance.  Or all the fixins people want when they own a home.  So maybe our spending should be solidly $70K, not $50K-$70K.  And I want to travel more in FIRE, so I should tack on something for that.  I fantasize about big trips and worry that I'll have the time for them in RE, but will be too afraid to spend the money.  And I will have to pay for health insurance, so IDK maybe that's another $12K annually?!  (I've looked a little, but need to think about what MAGI will really be to understand what it would cost.  And then what if it changes substantially?!)  So now I'm looking at $82K-$90K?!  I just went from frugal $50K family to nearly fat fire in a paragraph.   Could we really pinch pennies and stay closer to the $50K-$60K mark?  Probably.  But that could be stressful and annoying.
...

I feel like this paragraph perfectly captures what I went through in the final years leading up to FIRE, especially the bolded part.  Perhaps because of that I'm reading too much into making your situation into something like what I went through, so my inputs may be way off. 

When I was where you are (able to FIRE on the lowest planned spending or a little short on the "maybe" spending), I was just using the 4% rule to get me in the ballpark.  During that phase somehow FIRE didn't feel really real even though I had been reaching for it and reading about it for years.  Once we got close, my partner and I had a lot of detailed discussions about what we actually wanted life to look like without work.  We figured out our planned FIRE budget with hard numbers for travel, health insurance, and other increased post-work spending areas.  We also agreed to collective and individual spending cuts in case the markets tanked after we FIREd.   I think it was incredibly important for us to have these discussions and put specifics on paper for both of us to feel comfortable about our actual FIRE number.  As a result, we came up with a hard FIRE number that included increase in areas like travel over our prior budget, hard numbers for health insurance, but also flexible numbers for areas we both thought we could cut if things didn't go as planned. 

I guess what I'm saying is that for both my partner and me, the finances had to flow from more nebulous discussions about what we wanted our life to be like after FIRE.  Having those discussions, using the budget as the framework, allowed us to both finalize our number and it also allowed us to see the trade-offs to extra work.  One example might be including $4k / year forever to help family members who were struggling.  Using the 4% rule we could see that meant earning an extra $100k, which meant working an extra X months or years. 

These conversations weren't one and done - we had them about every 6 months in the few years leading up to FIRE.  By the time we pulled the plug we were past the thoughts that you wrote about in the paragraph I quoted because we had come to an agreement we were both comfortable with. 

I like to think of the 4% rule as a formula to get you to a place where you can start to make the hard decisions - what is an absolute must-have for post-work spending?  What is something that would be nice, but if the markets turn south we could live without?   What is a pure luxury that we don't really need unless the markets return more than expected?  By nailing down those things, I think we hit a sweet spot for us where we didn't work way longer than necessary, but we worked long enough to have a high likelihood of having all the nice-to-have items.   

Good luck!  Make sure you remember that while this is all stressful and difficult, it's an absolutely amazing set of problems to have.  You've worked hard to get to this point; make sure the questioning doesn't make you forget that (financially) you're in a fantastic position. 

catccc

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2022, 09:44:23 AM »
Reading you saying that (which is very much something I would say) I found myself responding "if you don't need the money, you effectively ARE doing it for free".  So thank you for saying this, as I think it will get me to look at my own stance on RE a bit differently.

And I wholeheartedly agree with NOT thinking retirement is the answer to all your problems.  If I'm not careful, I'm definitely prone to "I'll be happy when..." type thinking, and it's simply not true.  We've really made an effort to have balance now, not just in the hypothetical future.  I work full-time (from home, with 39 vacation / holiday days per year).  DW works part-time at a job she really likes, with afternoons and summers off.  I think about going down to part-time, but I feel like it wouldn't be that much less work (as I have a good amount of flexibility now) for the drop in pay.  I'm also not someone who particularly wants (or thrives with) large swaths of unstructured free time (despite the voice in my head saying "I'll be happy when..." about that).

It's funny (to me).  I started off on this path (young, before FIRE was even a term) with a real interest in RE.  I was in highschool, and I had this flash of insight -- every dollar I don't spend is time I don't have to work.  I spent my 20s avoiding full-time work.  Now (45) I'm very interested in FI, but I don't care as much about the RE part.  At the same time, I suspect me that sometime in the next 5 years or so, we'll hit $2M in investments, and it will be increasingly clear that I don't NEED to work anymore.  We shall see...

Wow, the idea that I'm working for free if I don't need the money is kinda mind blowing!  I mean, I don't know that I don't need it yet, but if I really don't, that's right, I'm essentially working for nothing of value to me.

So much of your situation is so similar to mine, except I don't get nearly that much vacation time.  Oh, and DH doesn't really like his job and his summers are his busy time.  I have thought the same about part time work- why bother.  I could see doing just as much for for half the pay, and that's not what I'm after at all!

catccc

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2022, 09:53:55 AM »
1.  Prices for things that you want / need are going up (food, maybe updating the house, vacations) - so you want a guarantee your FI keeps up with this 'personal rate of inflation'
2.  Your ER budget is higher than your current budget, or you haven't done the numbers
3.  Your concept of Enough (John Bogle wrote a whole book about it, as well as another good book I read, The Number) hasn't been defined, so you default to 'more is better'
4.  You are suffering from 'comparison is the thief of joy' syndrome
5.  You just don't like uncertainty or still hold on to a dream of owning / living some $$$$ fantasy (not typically a Mustachian problem, but putting it here for completeness)

This is such a tidy list I feel I should address it.  And you are right, there is just more work to do.
1.  Yes, this is a concern, especially in the current economic environment.
2.  I feel like our ER budget should be higher than our current budget for the reasons outlined previously (primarily travel and home stuff.  I guess 6 months in I don't have a good handle on home repairs and maintenance costs.  So, a lot more work to figure out what we want/need is in order, for sure.
3.  I have so many books I want to read and I will add these to the list!  Defining enough has always been a struggle.
4.  I tell myself this all the time, yet it is hard to stop comparing.  Sometimes I judge others for what seem like wasteful spending habits, but part of me is probably envious of some of the choices, and I question whether I am doing the right thing for my family by saving so much.  Also, there's this book on my list of things to read called "Wanting," Paula Pant interviewed the author, it's basically about how everything we want (that isn't a biological need) is based on a model of desire- we only want things because we see other people want them, too.
5.  I used to be much more hardcore mustachian.  I think these days I'm more apt to think about living some $$$$ fantasy.  I think part of that is related to the growth of our stash over the years.  I didn't dream we'd have this net worth at this point.  I didn't expect my salary to get as high as it has gotten.  It seems like so much money... yet not enough for a feeling of true security at the same time.


Chris Pascale

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2022, 10:12:23 AM »
I think I may be an FI imposter.

Seems like you're the real deal. In your independence you are choosing to build wealth.

Rdy2Fire

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2022, 09:10:18 AM »

Wow, the idea that I'm working for free if I don't need the money is kinda mind blowing!  I mean, I don't know that I don't need it yet, but if I really don't, that's right, I'm essentially working for nothing of value to me.


Like yourself, I kept moving my target number because lets be honest, it seems like more is better or certainly more comfortable. What caused me to finally say enough is enough was I was in a bad work situation. Like yourself I had taken a new position that became a personal challenge to myself but at some point the company just, sucked, to be honest. If it hadn't been for that I probably would have kept working (FOR FREE in theory).

The reality of my situation, sounds like yours as well, comes down to how much do you really need??? Obviously, based on what you've laid out you have enough for your needs. With that said, if you enjoy your job or feel there is a challenge with a new work opportunity then it's not the money that is the value, its the experience and opportunity to meet a new challenge (if that's something you want to do). Bottom line and you can always walk away at any time when you feel you're getting no value, monetarily or otherwise.

Omy

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2022, 09:36:14 PM »
When I was going through some of these feelings 3+ years ago, I started a similar thread and got a lot of great advice (that helped me finally pull the trigger in August 2019).

We could have FIREd comfortably at least 5 years earlier. Instead we FIREd 6 months before the pandemic and all of our travel plans went out the window.

The advice I received that helped most was:

1) Stop trading your limited time for money.
2) When you have enough, hoarding extra money and resources isn't healthy.

After being FIREd for 2.5 years, I can say that it's impossible to plan for every possible contingency. I tried - and worldwide pandemic was not even on my list.

Also, I had assumed that all contingencies cost money. But it turns out that being FIREd during a pandemic costs significantly less than planned because we aren't travelling and we're doing more DIY because we don't want strangers in our house.

Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2022, 02:28:32 PM »
Posting to follow. This has become relevant for me in the last year as well. Our spend has been up for the last few years, but it involved hvac/windows/roof (metal), so amortized out over the lifespans of those items it'd be up under 5%, not the up by 25-30% it looks like.

The thing that is going to drive OMY is my work shooting a firehose of cash at me. In theory, we're near our number, but it feels really stupid to give up a firehose of cash. Getting the level of firehose again would be unlikely if I wanted to return to work -- I'd be well paid as a software dev, but there's "well paid" and "successful ipo well paid."

Omy

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2022, 04:13:39 PM »
There's a reason they're called "golden handcuffs".

Glenstache

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2022, 05:00:40 PM »
There's a reason they're called "golden handcuffs".
This.

A good exercise is to go to cFIREsim or equivalent and see your projections with and without the firehose. If if changes your results from 100% to 100%, then the firehose is superfluous unless you are going to do something constructive with it, like use it to set up a charity, etc.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2022, 05:27:23 PM »
...
Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

Just one thought on this point, it worries me that the stock market has nearly doubled during this pandemic.  This doesn't make any common sense...

The only thing that makes sense on the stock market front is that the US Fed showered the system with cash (set the bank overnight borrowing rate at zero and bought mortgage backed securities and 10 yr bonds (QE)).  This made it easy for Companies to justify doing stuff like borrowing to buy-back stock (which benefits the executives), who then borrowed against their inflated shares to diversify in to real estate (since mortgages were artificially low), etc.  This is typically how bubbles form.

So I strongly believe that the US market is distorted in many ways by this pandemic and the ensuing 'easy money' rescue by the Federal Reserve. 

TLDR - don't count on markets to do what they've done in the past...  But if you think you'll be OK if the market goes down during the early years of your ER, or you think that I'm wrong (which is maybe 60% possible :), then you're good to go on the dollars part.

alm0stk00l

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2022, 05:36:48 PM »
...
Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

Just one thought on this point, it worries me that the stock market has nearly doubled during this pandemic.  This doesn't make any common sense...

The only thing that makes sense on the stock market front is that the US Fed showered the system with cash (set the bank overnight borrowing rate at zero and bought mortgage backed securities and 10 yr bonds (QE)).  This made it easy for Companies to justify doing stuff like borrowing to buy-back stock (which benefits the executives), who then borrowed against their inflated shares to diversify in to real estate (since mortgages were artificially low), etc.  This is typically how bubbles form.

So I strongly believe that the US market is distorted in many ways by this pandemic and the ensuing 'easy money' rescue by the Federal Reserve. 

TLDR - don't count on markets to do what they've done in the past...  But if you think you'll be OK if the market goes down during the early years of your ER, or you think that I'm wrong (which is maybe 60% possible :), then you're good to go on the dollars part.

So how much should the market have appreciated? Is there some % that you feel would have made sense, but this % is just too much? Do you believe everyone is too confident in the market because a global pandemic has increased their confidence and if they "pay attention" to the real consequences they will become more pessimistic?

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2022, 05:40:29 PM »
...
Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

Just one thought on this point, it worries me that the stock market has nearly doubled during this pandemic.  This doesn't make any common sense...

The only thing that makes sense on the stock market front is that the US Fed showered the system with cash (set the bank overnight borrowing rate at zero and bought mortgage backed securities and 10 yr bonds (QE)).  This made it easy for Companies to justify doing stuff like borrowing to buy-back stock (which benefits the executives), who then borrowed against their inflated shares to diversify in to real estate (since mortgages were artificially low), etc.  This is typically how bubbles form.

So I strongly believe that the US market is distorted in many ways by this pandemic and the ensuing 'easy money' rescue by the Federal Reserve. 

TLDR - don't count on markets to do what they've done in the past...  But if you think you'll be OK if the market goes down during the early years of your ER, or you think that I'm wrong (which is maybe 60% possible :), then you're good to go on the dollars part.

So how much should the market have appreciated? Is there some % that you feel would have made sense, but this % is just too much? Do you believe everyone is too confident in the market because a global pandemic has increased their confidence and if they "pay attention" to the real consequences they will become more pessimistic?

This is called a qualifying question - you are framing the question in such a way that you discredit my comment.  Please do better.

alm0stk00l

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2022, 08:19:53 PM »
...
Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

Just one thought on this point, it worries me that the stock market has nearly doubled during this pandemic.  This doesn't make any common sense...

The only thing that makes sense on the stock market front is that the US Fed showered the system with cash (set the bank overnight borrowing rate at zero and bought mortgage backed securities and 10 yr bonds (QE)).  This made it easy for Companies to justify doing stuff like borrowing to buy-back stock (which benefits the executives), who then borrowed against their inflated shares to diversify in to real estate (since mortgages were artificially low), etc.  This is typically how bubbles form.

So I strongly believe that the US market is distorted in many ways by this pandemic and the ensuing 'easy money' rescue by the Federal Reserve. 

TLDR - don't count on markets to do what they've done in the past...  But if you think you'll be OK if the market goes down during the early years of your ER, or you think that I'm wrong (which is maybe 60% possible :), then you're good to go on the dollars part.

So how much should the market have appreciated? Is there some % that you feel would have made sense, but this % is just too much? Do you believe everyone is too confident in the market because a global pandemic has increased their confidence and if they "pay attention" to the real consequences they will become more pessimistic?

This is called a qualifying question - you are framing the question in such a way that you discredit my comment.  Please do better.

You are correct. I discredit your comment. Your comment seems to be that if anyone has confidence in the future then we are probably wrong. I could be misunderstanding your view, so what were you trying to explain with your comment? How did I misinterpret your view?

Omy

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2022, 08:50:09 PM »
Personally, I expect the market to go down...or be flat for awhile. We 5MYed and doubled our stash (and wasted precious time when we could have been FIREd).

Don't be me. I didn't want to shut down the firehose of cash even though we could comfortably live off our rentals and not touch anything we have in the market...indefinitely.

Time is your most precious commodity. When you have enough and choose not to leave the rat race, you're just giving away your time. If you're doing something meaningful that you'd gladly do for free, then go for it.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2022, 11:01:51 PM »
While you aren't wrong about working for free, my situation generally leads me to believe that working the next 3 years till the handcuffs fall off is worth it. Sure, the company will try to add new ones, but they're going to be small potatoes (an order of magnitude smaller, in all seriousness), so my exit date is unlikely to change substantially.

The thing we find money useful for is giving us options. Besides, if I quit, after some decompression, I've got a couple programming projects I'd probably chew on for myself, so in a lot of ways my day won't look that different. You can say, "oh but you'd get more satisfaction out of your own!" which is certainly true, but then again I have gotten a *lot* of life satisfaction out of having options, due to having a surplus of cash.

Being on the path of fire for us has been much more accidental than intentional, hence my forum name.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2022, 08:38:41 AM »
...
Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

Just one thought on this point, it worries me that the stock market has nearly doubled during this pandemic.  This doesn't make any common sense...

The only thing that makes sense on the stock market front is that the US Fed showered the system with cash (set the bank overnight borrowing rate at zero and bought mortgage backed securities and 10 yr bonds (QE)).  This made it easy for Companies to justify doing stuff like borrowing to buy-back stock (which benefits the executives), who then borrowed against their inflated shares to diversify in to real estate (since mortgages were artificially low), etc.  This is typically how bubbles form.

So I strongly believe that the US market is distorted in many ways by this pandemic and the ensuing 'easy money' rescue by the Federal Reserve. 

TLDR - don't count on markets to do what they've done in the past...  But if you think you'll be OK if the market goes down during the early years of your ER, or you think that I'm wrong (which is maybe 60% possible :), then you're good to go on the dollars part.

So how much should the market have appreciated? Is there some % that you feel would have made sense, but this % is just too much? Do you believe everyone is too confident in the market because a global pandemic has increased their confidence and if they "pay attention" to the real consequences they will become more pessimistic?

This is called a qualifying question - you are framing the question in such a way that you discredit my comment.  Please do better.

You are correct. I discredit your comment. Your comment seems to be that if anyone has confidence in the future then we are probably wrong. I could be misunderstanding your view, so what were you trying to explain with your comment? How did I misinterpret your view?

Don't get me wrong, being challenged on what I said is fine, I just need to know what your thoughts are.  Do you think the Fed should continue QE if the stock market goes down?

People ER in uncertain circumstances, I'm not trying to talk OP out of it with my post.  In fact, ER (or any significant counter-cultural action) in the face of adversity is what makes it notable and majestic...  Just saw a comment and reacted to is all.  I'm more than happy to discuss whatever it was that you disagreed with further.

catccc

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2022, 11:44:21 PM »
The thing that is going to drive OMY is my work shooting a firehose of cash at me. In theory, we're near our number, but it feels really stupid to give up a firehose of cash. Getting the level of firehose again would be unlikely if I wanted to return to work -- I'd be well paid as a software dev, but there's "well paid" and "successful ipo well paid."

I am also unsure about retaining my current salary if I were to step away for a number of years.  This give me hesitation.  But also, as many others have pointed out, if you don't need $, why does it matter how much I get paid?

It's become increasingly clear in the last week that DH is leaning towards calling it quits in the near future.  This makes me want to stick it out longer at my job to make up for the savings we will forgo if/when he does.

catccc

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2022, 11:48:21 PM »
And to the notes on what the markets will or won't do in the future... That's another thing.  We've been riding this high for a long time and if we see a change to this, I want to be investing through a dip and not drawing down through it.  Of course, if we do see a dip, there's no telling how long we have until recovery...

@Omy We do not hold any real estate besides our primary residence, so I think you have a different level of income security that I do not.  (I have thought about venturing into real estate, but mostly I come to the conclusion that being a landlord is a job I don't want.)

Omy

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2022, 07:01:08 AM »
Yes - realizing that rentals cover the vast majority of our expenses helped me feel much more secure about FIRE and turning off the firehose of cash.

Now that we've been FIREd 2.5 years, we're talking about letting go of that "crutch". Rentals are fairly passive most of the time, and a PITA some of the time. And realistically are only giving us a 5% return.

If we could go back in time, we would have stopped at $2M and not had the burden of rentals.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 04:55:38 PM by Omy »

The_Pretender

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2022, 04:10:01 PM »
Sounds like the early winter/spring will be good time to have discussions about DH retiring early.  Understand each other's feelings as it sounds like he needs to give his job the big FU as you've got the FU Money and that is what it is used for.  Let him have a sabbatical of sorts while you carry insurance. 

In regards to the market coming down to earth so to speak, it will be "temporary" I recall MMM posting about how long each Major Crash took to get back to pre-crash levels.  I think in 08 it was 3 years.  Maybe you focus on growing your cash reserves to accommodate any feelings on how long you'd expect the next crash to last.  So if it crashes over the next 2 months and you think it'll take 3 years to come back.  then you'd need ~50K x 3 years so 150K in cash to weather the market coming back.  This logic could have many flaws, as people would cringe at 150K cash reserve. 

But going back to a previous poster... Identify all things and get a $ to those items.  If you would love to have 4 weeks during the summer to be in Hawaii or Europe, and you expect this to be 10K a year to do so, then budget 250K in your number.  Then identify the line items that you could cut/not do during a down year.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: FI Imposter
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2022, 09:48:06 AM »
...
Another crazy thing is that our stash has grown significantly since we FIREd. I was concerned about stopping the firehose of cash when we left our jobs, but our net worth is growing faster than when we were working. Compounding - and being able to optimize spending and investing when we're no longer stressed and distracted with jobs - has eliminated all financial worries.

Just one thought on this point, it worries me that the stock market has nearly doubled during this pandemic.  This doesn't make any common sense...

The only thing that makes sense on the stock market front is that the US Fed showered the system with cash (set the bank overnight borrowing rate at zero and bought mortgage backed securities and 10 yr bonds (QE)).  This made it easy for Companies to justify doing stuff like borrowing to buy-back stock (which benefits the executives), who then borrowed against their inflated shares to diversify in to real estate (since mortgages were artificially low), etc.  This is typically how bubbles form.

So I strongly believe that the US market is distorted in many ways by this pandemic and the ensuing 'easy money' rescue by the Federal Reserve. 

TLDR - don't count on markets to do what they've done in the past...  But if you think you'll be OK if the market goes down during the early years of your ER, or you think that I'm wrong (which is maybe 60% possible :), then you're good to go on the dollars part.

So how much should the market have appreciated? Is there some % that you feel would have made sense, but this % is just too much? Do you believe everyone is too confident in the market because a global pandemic has increased their confidence and if they "pay attention" to the real consequences they will become more pessimistic?

This is called a qualifying question - you are framing the question in such a way that you discredit my comment.  Please do better.

You are correct. I discredit your comment. Your comment seems to be that if anyone has confidence in the future then we are probably wrong. I could be misunderstanding your view, so what were you trying to explain with your comment? How did I misinterpret your view?

@alm0stk00l I'm still waiting to hear exactly what it was in my comment that you took issue with.  I have confidence in the future and never said anything about the future not happening, just tried to lay out a potential future which you apparently thought was impossible.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 09:49:59 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!