Author Topic: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?  (Read 14451 times)

Gronnie

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2016, 10:19:37 PM »
I'm confused, you said this is a business loan, right?

Does he actually have a business (and if so, does he plan to continue it?)

Is he personally liable for the debt?

I don't understand what is stopping him from just walking away.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2016, 04:43:46 AM »
I have to disagree with other posters who say early childcare is fine. There is good evidence that childcare under age 3 does disadvantage kids. Sure there will be some who are largely unaffected but if you are a vulnerable child who may be profoundly affected. There is a dose response relationship where the more childcare the worse it is. The younger the child is the worse it is. For a while researchers thought it was just that the quality of the childcare was insufficient but evidence from Scandinavia where childcare is top notch still shows detriment for children under 3. What these kids need is care from people that love them - parents, family members, close friends. They just don't get the same bonding and emotional encouragement from people who don't love them.

Could you, please, share the link to this research with us?

If I recall, several years ago there was a big ado about research (I think from a study in Britain) showing that kids put childcare under age 3 are more likely to have mild behavioral issues in junior high and high school.  The impact was slight and didn't show up in any long term impact, but there was concern that in aggregate, there might be a negative impact on primary and secondary classrooms with a large percentage of children that were put in daycare as an infant.  Not sure if any follow up research confirmed or disproved the effect they found.

If it's the one I'm thinking of they didn't control for household income or single parents.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2016, 04:50:38 AM »
Is there any reason to even believe that he would be a good SAHP?  Some men are, of course, but most weren't raised to do it. 

I need to call bullshit on this. There are some people that would be great SAHPs and some that would be awful. There is no need to bring gender into it.

I 100% share your concerns about this person, but let's not tar other men with his issues.

plog

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2016, 06:51:24 AM »
Quote
If I recall, several years ago there was a big ado about research...

An anecdote about data.  God I love the internet. 

Jrr85

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2016, 07:47:10 AM »
I would usually hesitate to talk about loved one's mistakes so openly but this situation has caused me lots of grief and I'd appreciate some feedback.

Prelude: when DH and I met two years ago, he was flat broke and starting his own business. I have no issues with that - i don't need a provider, but do draw the line at paying someone's debt.

We both live in Australia. About 8 months in, we decided to go to Europe. He had always wanted to go, I wanted to show him where I am from. It was a great trip and I'm so glad we went when we did BUT I had always made clear, if we go for 5 weeks it will have to be low budget. I recommended him for jobs (renovations at work colleagues places) that would make enough profit for him to pay his share. While travelling, we quarrelled a lot over his spending ways. For example, he packed too much luggage then always wanted to catch cabs. Or he'd go to restaurants and order beers each night - I'm like let's buy stuff and drink at the hotel. In the end, he had to randomly borrow money off me and when we came back he owed me $3,000.

It took a few months and some nagging to get that money off him and it really put a strain on our relationship. At one stage I broke up with him over it.

It is not even the money as such that bothered me, it is the lack of foresight and disregard for himself and me. The thought of "if I do x then negative consequence y will happen to me." Never seems to cross his mind. Neither does the thought "bad consequence z will impact my wife." Then again, this is partly what attracts me to him, I am a planner and a worrier so he balances me out in a way? Other than this he is the most amazing guy with a heart of gold.

Anyway the main event: a year ago, I broke up with him and asked him to move out. At the time he was driving a beaten up work car that was admittedly causing safety concerns (leaking tank). for whatever reason he decided to buy an almost new car on 5 year finance. I think he wanted to make himself feel better after the breakup. He asked me what I think about it, I said it is a really, really, really bad idea and sent him some links to read. He went and asked his mum (who has made many poor choices and spent most of her life on welfare) and she said "what a nice shiny car". At some stage he told me it was a zero finance loan and that it would help him get a credit rating to one day buy a house. I told him I really don't believe either but at this stage I was the ex and he is an adult and his mother is telling him to just get it....

So a week later we get back together again and I'm fuming he went ahead with the car loan. I told him look we are thinking of having a baby, you would be the stay at home parent and the key to achieving that is to reduce our living costs. this loan is a step in the wrong direction and let me be clear: I will not pay for it. He is like not a problem, he will get ahead on the payments so they are dealt with before kids.

A few months forward, we are getting married and I ask for a prenup. In his bit, he states the car is worth 30k and loan 30k.

The result:
So we got married, I fell pregnant and baby is due soon. I get three months paid leave and then we wanted for him to stay home. I kept asking him so what allowance do you think you'll need? And he kept being evasive. Partly because he eats out a lot, like twice or three times each day, which is an expensive and unhealthy habit he knows I loathe, but then finally a week ago comes the bummer. The car loan of course.

It turns out he signed up for a total liability of 60k for a car worth (at the time) 30k. I made him show me the paper work and was a bit shocked. 5 years on 16.5%. The break fee is really high too.  To get out of the arrangement, they now quoted 43k when the car is now worth 20k. 4 years left on it. And they made it a business loan, so he signed away his consumer rights. Argh.

He has been stressing (& hiding it from me) for a while and I hate to see him like this. I want him to be happy. But I also want to reach FIRE and a free spending dependent isn't helpful. Note: in Australia, I am not liable for his debt and likely never will be (take my word for it, I've triple checked).

So my options are:
0. Refinance. Break fee too high, not worth it.
1. Pay it out. Pro: peace of mind, family approach. Con: I said I wouldn't. what if he does it again? And flame it that's a lot of money. Ouch! Plus I'd have to then get another car and pay for that.
2. Pay the instalments while DH stays home. Pro: good for our soon to be born son? Con: as above. And more expensive in the end.
3. Put the kid in child care so DH can continue working. Pro: no precedent of bailing him out, quicker to FIRE. Con: is that the best for our son? Will DH be able to make enough?
4. Call my mum for help, make her retire early, move to Australia and child mind (she was going to retire and do that in about a year).
5. Let him file bankruptcy and stay home. Pro: no precedent, facing up to consequences of his actions. Con: is it worth the trouble and stress to him for that amount? What crazy thing might such a big blow to his self esteem make him do? It feels mean.
6. Kill his mother (kidding. Not really.)

I have made him set up an appointment with a financial counsellor for later in the month to discuss his rights (payment plan, insolvency, bankruptcy).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I do love the guy and this is the main thing we fight about.

I have a different view from most of the posters here.  The first decision point is do you want to be married to this guy.  And not, are you in a legal contractual relationship, but are you wanting to be in a traditional, til death do us part, marriage.  If the answer is yes, then your financial options become much simpler.  The is no his debt.  There is just debt.  You figure out your goals as a couple, and then you figure out the best way to get there.  You still have the issue of him lying to you, and you have the issue of whether he is going to be a responsible adult going forward, but those don't really have an impact on your plan for your debt, except that maybe taking his decision making and work ethic into account when deciding between two close options. 

If you don't want to be married to the guy in a death til you part type marriage, then you need to think not in terms of what to do with your debt, but how to protect your interests.  Not sure about Australian law, but in teh U.S., marriage is typically a bad legal vehicle for people that are not strongly committed to it being a forever thing.  That's not to say that divorce is the route to go if you're already married (I assume it isn't, at least not now); it just means you have to keep an eye towards the fact that it isn't likely to be a permanent arrangement and therefore you have to proceed in a way that doesn't make it unreasonably difficult to unwind your finances later on.  If this is the route you want to go, I would say you owe your husband an honest discussion about it, although that could potentially be tricky.  I know plenty of people who think of marriage as just something you do until it's not something you want to do anymore, and they would think of it as a no duh type conversation.  I know plenty of other people (including people who have been through a divorce already) who think of marriage as something intended to be permanent, and they would be horrified to hear their spouse openly talk about contingency plans for when they are no longer married. 

hollyluja

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2016, 12:26:41 PM »
I just wanted to say to everyone questioning why she married him - back off. 

My husband and I went to a marriage counselor when my son was 6 months old, to help us adjust to the new money and other relationship issues with a new kid. The counselor said that is his most common issue - woman drastically upgrades her expectations of her husband after a baby.  Man feels like the agreement has changed and resists.  It's one of the most fundamental challenges of a couple once they procreate.  She's hardly alone.

A great ethnography of this is Doing the Best I Can.  It focuses on inner-city poor fathers in the US, but the dynamic is the same.  The difference is, these fathers don't often have the ability to step up in the way they are needed, so they fade out of their kid's lives. 

Norgirl's man isn't in that situation - it sounds like he has the ability to contribute in a lot of ways.  The heartbreaking thing and the hardest thing for her to accept is that it really isn't her decision.  It's his.  He needs to decide whether to accept the responsibility and figure out a solution, and follow through.  Then she gets to make her decision to stay or go.

Kansas Terri

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2016, 07:59:37 PM »
You are not going to change him, you know. He is who he is.

That being said, is there a legal way so that you would not be responsible for his debts? It might reduce the tension between the two of you.

As for him being a househusband, well that is totally up to the two of you. But, I STRONGLY suggest you pay the joint bills. And have an account for the household and an account for him. That means a bit more wok for you as you take the shopping list he gives you and shop on your way home, but I strongly suggest that there will be much less friction between you if you do not worry about what he is buying.

Northern gal

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2016, 01:51:47 AM »
Thanks for everyone's responses. These sorts of threads are always difficult as everyone necessarily makes assumptions about context, character etc. still, no need to label him quite so harshly please.

some of this comes down to values - what is this whole FIRE thing for? For me, money is there to allow me and mine a happy, stress free life. Money is an enabler for family, not the other way around. I don't want to sit home alone counting my stash. If your ideal life is to play the dating game and cut anyone loose as soon as they show they are imperfect, go for it. But know most people will want to settle down one day and for most of us imperfect humans that will be with another imperfect human.

I also can't help but sense a bit of underlying sexism in some of the responses.  It seems financial troubles are sometimes judged more harshly in a male. I wonder if a guy posting about his wife's consumer debt would have received similar responses ("cut her loose she is clearly incapable of looking after kids?"). And to automatically assume because none of the options I stated include me staying at home with baby we must be "in a hole", that is kind of sexist too.

For context, we are not "in a hole", I am in a pretty good place with eight years to FIRE and if I wanted to stay home for the next 18 years I could - but would burn through my net wealth and it is not what I want. I have a savings rate of 75%, 18 months left on the mortgage and no I'm not looking to sell up and rent. We did not break up repeatedly, just that once for one week. I did not "fall" pregnant, we did IVF and are both over the moon. He clearly tried very hard to get ahead on the car payments but couldn't as business is bad. And he is really good with kids.

Thank you MissWhipple and cassis for your replies. I feel really mean contemplating sending him into bankruptcy so you made me feel better.
You are not sending him into bankruptcy. His poor decision making is sending him into bankruptcy. I hope that he is not making you feel guilty or stressed over it; if anything he should be grateful that he has a financially literate partner who can help him make the right decisions from here on out. And I do mean help - you should be partners in this relationship, not the mom giving her husband an allowance and fixing all his mistakes for him.

I also don't see how you can possibly say that he didn't lie - "I ask for a prenup. In his bit, he states the car is worth 30k and loan 30k."

That is a lie. In writing, in a legal document starting your marriage off, for pete's sake. It's not like he hemmed and hawed and didn't want to tell you - he straight up lied about how much he owed. That's the part that worries me. Not the poor decision making - lord knows we all make stupid decisions - but the deceit.

Well it's important whether it was a willful lie or an ignorant one.

It's possible the OP's husband didn't realize it was for that much when he signed the prenup. A surprising number of people have absolutely no clue about the state of their finances, debt, or otherwise have no ability to talk about their finances. If he did realize this after the fact, a fairly normal reaction is shame - and hiding from Norgirl as it's hard to bring that sort of subject up. Still not great relationally, but at least a starting place for working together.

Or maybe he did know and blatantly lied.


Exactly. It is hard for us on here to contemplate but there is a reason these consumer finance places are in business. There are tons of people who just don't understand what they are signing. Again, save the labels. Let's just accept the fact there are lots of people who sign financial agreements they don't fully understand (but think they do) and once they have an inkling something is off they'd rather not know how bad exactly it is. Shame, guilt, etc. and head in the sand kind of thing.

If I'd have to label my husband for this, I'd say naive and overly trusting - certainly not cunning or malicious. And there is nowhere else the money could have gone to. They just tell them you pay $1,000 dollars a month for sixty months and hope you never do the maths to realise you are signing up to pay 60k for something worth 30k.

Anyways, I am not contemplating divorce and I am glad I married him. If he was to be hit by a car tomorrow and in a wheel chair I'd look after him for the rest of my days and I think he would do the same for me. These were the vows we made.

BUT the point here is he did not get hit by a car, he made a mistake. Ideally, there would be a way for him to work it out himself without an impact on me (through a stressed and ashamed husband or a financial setback) or our son (through suboptimal Childcare). But this ideal choice does not seem to exist and the question is which other choice is second best.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 02:11:37 AM by Norgirl »

Northern gal

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2016, 02:23:16 AM »
At the same time you are also reinforcing that what you say goes no matter what. And he may be interpreting it as when he needs help you will throw him under the bus.... Maybe I'm an enabler but if she is saying she really loves him and wants to be together they should be working together not drawing lines in the sand of mine vs yours. Let's think about it from the other side. He may just be completely overwhelmed by it and ignoring it because he doesn't know what to do. You've obviously made it known he's made a big mistake but now he's ashamed. He knows if he brings it up, even under the context of asking for help, that you may just start a fight about how irresponsible he is and how it is HIS problem to deal with. Then he goes and asks anyone else for their help (his mom) and you flip again when he is just trying to figure out what to do. See how none of this is helping?? Is there anything he do right now about the loan that would make you happy?

So he made a mistake and got roped in to new car and bad loan. Most people fall into this trap. I mean there's like 3 posts today alone about people realizing their new car was a bad idea. Maybe not to this extreme (we still need to figure out where that 20k difference went). I like to think I'm smart and practical but I bought a brand new luxury car with my first job and got a stellar 9% loan. I didn't think twice about the interest rate until a year or two later. It was 10k+ underwater for so long. I didn't get rid of that money pit for 5 years! Looking at your age this happened at 24/25 so I don't see how everyone is writing this guy off as a total degenerate because he got a bad car loan and buys fast food...

Only you know if this is isolated or repeated events that will actually affect your financial stability. Past this one big thing, the car, are his spending habits really that bad that they will significantly hinder your stability and life? Us planners are drawn towards partners that can throw caution to the wind. Some "excess" spending in our frugal eyes comes along with the territory. I think if these are isolated incidents then you should talk it through, teach him, do some financial counseling, and help dig your family out of the hole. If you aren't willing to do that than you may want to seriously think about calling it quits right now.

Spot on. And the answer is the amount on the car loan is irrelevant to my family's financial future UNLESS it becomes a pattern and he does it again.

My savings rate is now 75%. If I pay the loan and an allowance that allows him to eat out daily, that would bring it to 63%.

It is not "can I" but "should I"?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 02:33:26 AM by Norgirl »

happy

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2016, 02:54:09 AM »
Quote
It is not "can I" but "should I"?
No.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2016, 03:22:32 AM »
It sounds like the issue is that you've agreed that he should be responsible for paying back the loan but he won't be able to earn while being a SAHP, and that is on a fixed timetable. The issue is timing only(?)

I think that you should make the loan payments for him while he is a SAHP with an agreement that he will pay you back for the payments when he starts work when your (youngest) child starts (pre)school [get the year fixed, written and agreed]. I'd make the payments directly rather than as a part of his living expenses.


Anatidae V

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2016, 04:44:21 AM »
OK a few clarifications please, need to check this:
Loan is $30k at 16%.
That means, due to the repayment timeframe he'll pay $60k, NOT that he borrowed $60k and the $30k went missing.
Maths time: What is the remaining principal, the remaining interest, and what is the fees for breaking the loan/lease? is this actually a lease situation where they pay for servicing or what-have-you as well?

He was naive, didn't read the lawyer-speak of the car financer and was possibly some combination of: upset, ashamed, and disappointed in himself. Perhaps he wanted to fix the thing without explaining his mistake because he hoped it would be done easily enough.

Glad to hear the SAHP was chosen due to aptitude and not income. So, your finances:
-Are they currently separate?
-What exactly was the plan once he was a SAHP? You'd pay for everything? I would guess yes, from the "allowance" question?
-How transparent are your finances? My DH and I took a couple of years to go from separate to combined finances, and both of us can see via our finance software (we use an old version of YNAB, lots of options though) how much money we have, where it's allocated, and when we've run out of, say, takeaway money.
-FIRE. You're 8 years away, how far away is he? It's your family now, so make choices as one. Your work might even pay for a few sessions with a couples counsellor or psychologist. Him being SAHP but not FI means things get sticky if he becomes SAHP to save you money/emotions about childcare and then has to go back to work and watch you be free.

I reckon the two of you can do this, but getting a third party involved (a professional)so he feels comfortable bringing the stuff he mucked up or is ashamed about to you will help. He might be hiding from the fact that no matter how you look at it, his actions hurt your family already, but as a family, you can both make it better.  Both of you need to be a stable, honest, safe place for the other. No parenting him, and no "bailing out" - those aren't the right phrases for this.

Maybe start the conversation with:
"Honey, I love you and I take full responsibility for my decision to marry you and make a baby with you. I'm still glad I did."
Then explain it:
"You didn't realise how the loan worked, and that's fine. But when you worked it out, you didn't come see me straight away, and that's hurting our family now. We need a plan for our finances from now on that we both agree to, to get out of this together".

Then talk about your family's finances and what that will look like offer the next 1, 5 and 10 years. Listen to him a lot. A cash-envelope system might be the way to go. Do it with him, and that partnership is like having a gym buddy- motivation to show the other how well you've been doing and feel like an equal instead of a child/parent.

little_brown_dog

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2016, 07:34:35 AM »

Exactly. It is hard for us on here to contemplate but there is a reason these consumer finance places are in business. There are tons of people who just don't understand what they are signing. Again, save the labels. Let's just accept the fact there are lots of people who sign financial agreements they don't fully understand (but think they do) and once they have an inkling something is off they'd rather not know how bad exactly it is. Shame, guilt, etc. and head in the sand kind of thing.

If I'd have to label my husband for this, I'd say naive and overly trusting - certainly not cunning or malicious. And there is nowhere else the money could have gone to. They just tell them you pay $1,000 dollars a month for sixty months and hope you never do the maths to realise you are signing up to pay 60k for something worth 30k.


I have seen personally how repeat financial incompetence can destroy savings, trust, and a marriage just as easily as blatant dishonesty. Trust me, while lying SEEMS like it would be far worse, a nice guy who is completely clueless about finances can destroy your relationship and trust in him just as easily as a liar can. Ask my mom. My dad sounds alot like your husband - not malicious, more like naive or incompetent. She buried her head in the sand, and didn't take control. Oh sure, over the years they collaborated to knock down certain debts or talk about his issues with his business and back taxes, but they never really addressed the fact that my dad is really bad at managing money. Inevitably, they'd pay off one bad decision only to find more mistakes and oopsies a couple years later. Now she is about to retire and found out her husband has massive debts and has been squandering their home equity to pay for bills because he didn't want to tell her he didn't have the money. Again, he didn't do it on purpose, but his good intentions didn't really change the outcome. Their retirement is now in jeopardy. Please do not be so naive to think that repeat incompetence/inability to manage finances is somehow okay. Poor money management skills can be just as pathological as dishonesty. My mom also thought my dad would learn and he never did. You certainly don't have to break up, but a few quick lessons and a payment plan from you will not fix this. I really, really recommend you pull out the big guns on this and go to a marriage counselor who specializes in financial issues.

Either way, I feel for you. It is really hard watching a loved one make questionable financial decisions and worry about their financial skills when you know they are a great, loving person. In many ways, it makes it that much harder because you can't just abandon them or treat them harshly. I have been losing sleep over my parents' situation for the last week.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 08:19:17 AM by little_brown_dog »

hollyluja

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2016, 09:43:41 AM »
Ideally, there would be a way for him to work it out himself without an impact on me (through a stressed and ashamed husband or a financial setback) or our son (through suboptimal Childcare). But this ideal choice does not seem to exist and the question is which other choice is second best.

You keep mentioning that you think childcare is suboptimal.  I can only offer my experience - I thought the same thing and agonized about it until I actually had to send my son to one.  Most days he loves it so much, he's disappointed if he has to stay home.  He gets a great little play group, educated carers, everything I would work to provide for him if I were home with me, and probably better than I could manage on a daily basis.  Don't be discouraged if that is the decision your family makes!  It can be a really good experience.

K-ice

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2016, 11:58:33 AM »
I do know people can change their finances. Many on this forum are good examples. 

You should let him make the change himself and pay it himself. However, since you are the more financial savvy I think you should maybe look into getting a Line of Credit, preferably an unsecured LoC just for him but maybe even a HELOC. If your mortgage is almost paid you should be easily able to do this.

I am not sure how you get the 60K total at 16.5% unless there are a bunch of hidden signing fees,  or maybe he was underwater on a trade-in.

Please share your real math details and we will try to help.

I am assuming, and rounding, a few numbers here:

CURRENT SCENARIO: 30K 16.5% 5y = $738/month = $44280 total =  $14280 interest

BETTER INTEREST SCENARIO: 30K 6% 5y = $580/month = $34080 total =  $4080 interest

Get that bank LoC and save yourself $10,000

LOWER TERM SCENARIO: Even better, keep the payment high and lower the term to 4y

30K 6% 4y = $705/month = $33840  = $3840 interest

If he can make a $1000 payment that will cut the loan to 2.7 years.

30K 6% 2.7y = $1000/month = $32400 = $2400 interest 

If you can save him, and your family, over $10,000 why wouldn't you?

It is completely foolish to punish him by taking care of this debt, at a horrible rate, all on his own. The "Your problem you deal with it" attitude is not good for a marriage. I don't think you should pay it, but you two sound solid enough that you can co-sign or help transfer his debt to a better rate.  Talk to him about it. "I think we can save $10,000 if we do this... I still want you to pay for it but I want to help find the best way to help you get rid of this debt as easy as possible. After the debt is gone in x years what long term goal should we focus on? (Vacation, college fund, house reno, FIRE etc.)."  Maybe sign a little deal on paper between you two that even though the debt is now in both of your names it is his responsibility. Even better, if you can just educate him enough to get his own LoC in his name. Let him shop around at the banks, he should be able to find a better deal then he will no longer be so "ashamed" about this financial mistake.  In a few years he can say "I once had this horrible car loan, 16.5%, but I found a better deal of xx% and saved myself thousands."

How do you share day to day expenses? 50:50?  Are you making advanced payments on the house mortgage? Who makes more? Is he accumulating consumer debt on toys? The eating out daily is a real problem for a families' finances. Eating out constantly also doesn't sound like a great trait for a SAHP. What is the kid going to eat, fast food every day?  I try to impose an eat out cash allowance only rule on myself. Date nights together are different. Does he realize he could probably pay the truck off twice as fast, and save thousands, if he ate out only once a week?   

More baby talk, first congrats on being "over the moon" IVF is a big financial and emotional commitment.

As for child care, as others have mentioned, daycare is not the end of the world for baby.

Both my SO and I are highly educated, and good with kids, but we gladly send the little one to daycare for just under 8h per day.  All this week they are doing a mini Olympics with a field trip to a local gymnastics club. Stuff I just couldn't do by myself. I do feel sorry for the kids there for 10-11 hours. But with the right schedule with your TWO jobs daycare is probably the best financial decision. Once your mom moves she can pick the child up even earlier or have one day a week be Grandma day. Asking grand parents to look after children full time is quite onerous unless it is really the only cultural option. Visit a few Daycares, some will make you want to run crying, but others will make you smile and feel good about the opportunities. 

And I know it is far from your mind, but the comment above about the SAHP getting custody, child support and alimony would be a true concern if you are not 50:50 parents and roughly 50:50 earners.

Miss Prim

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2016, 01:26:51 PM »
This post is mostly concerning your suggestion of asking your mother to retire early and babysit for you.  I think that is not a good option as you would be jeopardizing your mother's goals for retirement and asking a lot from her.  I'm sure my daughter would just love for me to babysit full-time as I am now retired, but I limit it to one day a week if I'm not travelling or being a snowbird down in Florida for a few months.  Your mother has her life to live as well as you do, and she raised her kids (you) and it is up to you to raise your own children.  My husband and I worked different shifts because we didn't want our kids in daycare, and believe me, it was a lot of work for each of us.  My mother-in-law babysat one day a week for us and we so appreciated that and I would have never expected it from her, but she offered. 

I would say most grandparents do not want to be fulltime caregivers in their retirement years.  We want a relationship with our grandchildren, but we also want to enjoy what is left of our lives on our own terms.

                                                                                                                Miss Prim

Pigeon

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2016, 06:03:04 PM »
This post is mostly concerning your suggestion of asking your mother to retire early and babysit for you.  I think that is not a good option as you would be jeopardizing your mother's goals for retirement and asking a lot from her.  I'm sure my daughter would just love for me to babysit full-time as I am now retired, but I limit it to one day a week if I'm not travelling or being a snowbird down in Florida for a few months.  Your mother has her life to live as well as you do, and she raised her kids (you) and it is up to you to raise your own children.  My husband and I worked different shifts because we didn't want our kids in daycare, and believe me, it was a lot of work for each of us.  My mother-in-law babysat one day a week for us and we so appreciated that and I would have never expected it from her, but she offered. 

I would say most grandparents do not want to be fulltime caregivers in their retirement years.  We want a relationship with our grandchildren, but we also want to enjoy what is left of our lives on our own terms.

                                                                                                                Miss Prim

This.

Northern gal

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2016, 03:10:09 PM »
This post is mostly concerning your suggestion of asking your mother to retire early and babysit for you.  I think that is not a good option as you would be jeopardizing your mother's goals for retirement and asking a lot from her.

I hear you but my mum hasn't saved or made plans for retirement and lives in the bad end of town of a European city. She is chomping at the bits to move to a nice house in Australia, half an hours walk from world class beaches, enjoying her first grandchild...

Northern gal

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2016, 03:19:40 PM »
I am not sure how you get the 60K total at 16.5% unless there are a bunch of hidden signing fees,  or maybe he was underwater on a trade-in.
Please share your real math details and we will try to help.

The car at the time was worth roughly 30k, then came taxes, admin fees, a special gap insurance and so on and so forth. 40k all up. That they apply a fixed interest rate on over five years and make it an annuity of equal payments.

My mortgage is at 4.2% but because the break fee is so high, breaking the consumer loans and refinancing at 4.2 instead of 16.5 work out literally the same. Because he got it as a business loan for his business (sole trader, which is not going well) he has no right to make early repayments etc. i.e he is even worse off than if it had been consumer finance

Quote
. Visit a few Daycares, some will make you want to run crying, but others will make you smile and feel good about the opportunities. 

And I know it is far from your mind, but the comment above about the SAHP getting custody, child support and alimony would be a true concern if you are not 50:50 parents and roughly 50:50 earners.

As for daycare, if it was 3 days at 8 hours I'd be fine with it but 8 hours on 5 days seems like a lot for a three month old...

As for custody etc yes I have thought about that...

LeRainDrop

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2016, 03:19:57 PM »
This post is mostly concerning your suggestion of asking your mother to retire early and babysit for you.  I think that is not a good option as you would be jeopardizing your mother's goals for retirement and asking a lot from her.

I hear you but my mum hasn't saved or made plans for retirement and lives in the bad end of town of a European city. She is chomping at the bits to move to a nice house in Australia, half an hours walk from world class beaches, enjoying her first grandchild...

In that case, it may be win-win to have her move down sooner rather than later.  I thought from your original post that your mom was opposed to this because you characterized it as, "Call my mum for help, make her retire early, move to Australia and child mind."  But you'd also need to buy into the idea that you may be called to support her more than you otherwise would have.  Watching a child full-time is no piece of cake!

Northern gal

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2016, 03:27:54 PM »
Quote from: anatidev

-FIRE. You're 8 years away, how far away is he? It's your family now, so make choices as one. Your work might even pay for a few sessions with a couples counsellor or psychologist. Him being SAHP but not FI means things get sticky if he becomes SAHP to save you money/emotions about childcare and then has to go back to work and watch you be free.

Spot on. You have hit the nail on the head in terms of timing. Say he stays home now, then we would another baby if we can, it would be eight years before the youngest starts primary school. In other words, by the time the stay at home parent question is no longer a thing, neither would working.

In terms of costs, most of my costs are fixed and non-scalable. Ie I wouldn't move to a smaller house if I was by myself, I'd still have broadband internet etc. our joint groceries are really low because I buy bulk, freeze portion sized meals etc. So whether or not he financially contributes to us achieving FIRE has way more to do with the expense side (I.e. Not blowing my money) than with his income (which is low)

However, he is not aiming for FIRE.

[/quote]

Bicycle_B

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Re: To pay or not to pay husband's consumer debt?
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2016, 04:51:27 PM »
7. Let him declare bankruptcy AND go back to work.

My kid loves day care.

Tough love is real love!!

He'll never learn unless you stand firm. 

(That means if you fold, he WILL learn... to take advantage of you instead of learning responsible finance.  Not saying it's a conscious thing, just that the effect on you will be the same as if were.  Both of you have to face emotional pain - him the pain of learning better finance, you of holding the line - or you will never reach a satisfactory balance.  Since you've got to invest the pain anyway, be the leader and set wise financial lines in the sand and defend them without fail.)

A friend of mine had a grandma who ran the finances and gave hubby an allowance.  He brought his paycheck home and gave it to her.  He worked a modest job but they were happily married with multiple children.  He died of old age and she outlived him many years, died with almost $2 million US in property and stock, not a penny of debt.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 05:00:23 PM by Bicycle_B »