Author Topic: Thoughts on having a third child??  (Read 27121 times)

Luckie

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Thoughts on having a third child??
« on: January 24, 2016, 12:34:18 PM »
Tell me what I need to consider? We are debating if we should have a third, I need to consider all financial implications/effects that I may have looked over.

kathrynd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 12:39:04 PM »
having another child should be because you want another....everything else will fall into place

.....I am a mother of 4, retired at 50, high school drop out, never on welfare......

Mongoose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2016, 12:39:49 PM »
Posting to follow. We've been having this debate lately too. Although in our case it is definitely dependent on the job/financial situation improving.

Lucky Girl

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Location: Boston area
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2016, 12:49:44 PM »
We plan to pay full cost for each of our child's college, so for us it would delay FIRE by at least a year, probably two.  Also, adding in one more day care cost would probably add another 6 months to a year till FIRE for us.  Other things (from a monetary perspective, obviously this is not just a monetary decision):  cost of plane tickets--we hope to take the kids on a few international adventures, and extracurriculars.

Needless to say, I'm sticking with two!

ditheca

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 36
  • Location: ST GEORGE, UT
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 12:53:15 PM »
If you are a regular here, you can find a way to afford a third child.  It shouldn't be a financial decision.  Nothing you can buy, including FIRE, will bring more joy than a well raised child.

rockstache

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5865
  • Age: 2015
  • Location: Northeast
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2016, 12:55:56 PM »
Nothing to do with money but I grew up as one of three. Someone was always left out. We are all very close with each other today, but we still get along a lot better one on one because of the dynamic of someone being left out. I always said I wouldn't have 3....either 1, 2, or 4.

tobitonic

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 549
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 01:18:26 PM »
having another child should be because you want another....everything else will fall into place

.....I am a mother of 4, retired at 50, high school drop out, never on welfare......

I love it when threads are pretty much resolved within the first handful of posts. What she said. If you want it, you can make it work. Or as ditheca said...

If you are a regular here, you can find a way to afford a third child.  It shouldn't be a financial decision.  Nothing you can buy, including FIRE, will bring more joy than a well raised child.

We've got 2 and are aiming for 4, whether through adoption or biologically.

okits

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9119
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 01:30:08 PM »
Financial stuff only, it depends on your situation, but possibly the costs of maternity or paternity leave, child care, clothes, food, school expenses, activity costs, need for bigger accommodation/larger vehicle, additional travel costs for vacations, greater expense for gifts and special occasions, sacrifices to one career (or both) due to the efforts needed to wrangle an additional child.  Every time you have a baby you roll the dice on if you'll be fortunate enough to have a child who will grow up to be self-sufficient.  If special needs or an accident mean you (in addition to social supports and government programs) must provide indefinitely for that child, that certainly increases the costs.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4671
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2016, 01:33:00 PM »
There was a recent study that the more children are in a family, the less well any of them do. YMMV. (I know, I don't really buy it either. Thing is, I REALLY want a third child and my husband doesn't. So I remind myself a lot of all the reasons not to have one. Like spoonfeeding! And potty training! Pacifiers!)

Luckie

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2016, 03:50:21 PM »
I am for it, my hubs is not but will if I really wanted to. I am hoping someone can scare me away from the idea of having a third so I don't have to think about it.  Or add more light to having a third.

The idea of breastfeeding, the first year, family dynamics such as Rockstache pointed out, not sleeping until i am in my 40's becuase I have not been blessed with children who sleep through the night, possible disabilities scare me. I'm wondering if someone can shed light, financially that I have not thought of that can possibly deter me from this or would allow me to hash this through. It's hard to say since no one knows my financial situation but just some considerations others have made to go for a third or not  or even those from 3 children households would be great. TIA

I love and adore my two boys with all of my heart, we have lots to offer. I think we will be incredibly lucky to have a third boy or girl but not at the expense of my 2 other.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4750
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2016, 04:01:59 PM »
To some extent a third child would have to be at the expense of the two you already have.  Even if the finances are OK (and I don't agree with other posters that if you want the child the finances will follow: that's the kind of magical thinking that has failed to work for large poor families through the ages), you and your husband only have 24 hours in each day and only so much time and energy in each of those days to give to your kids.  And as rockstache says, 2 adults 2 kids means no-one has to feel left out.

You would be adding more than your replacement number of humans to an overpopulated planet, although that doesn't seem to have ever stopped anyone.


Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5870
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 04:34:51 PM »
I come from a family of 3 and had 3 boys.  I don't think anyone suffers. Kids don't need constant attention or they end up spoiled brats. I have know large families of 6-8 kids that produced wonderful well adjusted adults. We had a 3 bedroom house so 2 always had to share a room. You never quite fit in a motel room-usually had to pay for a roll away bed to be brought in. You might not fit in a restaurant booth and if you go somewhere alone and the kids are too close together you might not have enough hands. WE didn't have this problem as there were 7 years between first and 3rd. The other things I mention are minor.

DebtFreeBy25

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 239
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Appalachian and...tolerating it
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 04:56:37 PM »
One additional thought that hasn't previously been mentioned: everyone is assuming your third child will be healthy and neurotypical. Sadly that is far from guaranteed. If your third child has medical or developmental challenges, the associated costs will far exceed your estimates. More importantly, the personal costs involved are astronomical. Imagine having to take care of another human being for the rest of your life.

This is where I should note that I am child-free by choice. I have many reasons why I'm foregoing procreation, but this is one of the most critical. I briefly considered fostering or adopting but have always been firmly opposed to having a biological child because it's such a gamble.

Letj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2016, 05:18:06 PM »
One additional thought that hasn't previously been mentioned: everyone is assuming your third child will be healthy and neurotypical. Sadly that is far from guaranteed. If your third child has medical or developmental challenges, the associated costs will far exceed your estimates. More importantly, the personal costs involved are astronomical. Imagine having to take care of another human being for the rest of your life.

This is where I should note that I am child-free by choice. I have many reasons why I'm foregoing procreation, but this is one of the most critical. I briefly considered fostering or adopting but have always been firmly opposed to having a biological child because it's such a gamble.

I don't quite get what you're saying. How is it a gamble? The odds are always heavily in your favor unless you're talking about people who are carrying recessive genes for bad genetic conditions. Even in your forties, for a healthy woman, the odds are still heavily in her favor.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5870
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 05:41:31 PM »
If you are of the age where there might be some risk you can also have amniocentesis to see if there are any birth defects. As previously noted by another poster having a child is not usually a big gamble.

DebtFreeBy25

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 239
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Appalachian and...tolerating it
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2016, 05:52:56 PM »
One additional thought that hasn't previously been mentioned: everyone is assuming your third child will be healthy and neurotypical. Sadly that is far from guaranteed. If your third child has medical or developmental challenges, the associated costs will far exceed your estimates. More importantly, the personal costs involved are astronomical. Imagine having to take care of another human being for the rest of your life.

This is where I should note that I am child-free by choice. I have many reasons why I'm foregoing procreation, but this is one of the most critical. I briefly considered fostering or adopting but have always been firmly opposed to having a biological child because it's such a gamble.

I don't quite get what you're saying. How is it a gamble? The odds are always heavily in your favor unless you're talking about people who are carrying recessive genes for bad genetic conditions. Even in your forties, for a healthy woman, the odds are still heavily in her favor.

I'm not speaking so much to the pure probability of the child having a serious health issue, but rather to the severity of the consequences if s/he does happen to be among the unlucky few. This is also colored by the fact that I have worked with developmentally and behaviorally challenged children. There are serious conditions (ie. autism) that cannot be tested for in utero. 

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3295
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2016, 06:58:04 PM »
As the youngest of nine(!) and the father of six, I'd say it really comes down to what you want, and *why* you want it, not what you can afford.  If a third child is sufficiently important to you, you'll find a way to pay for him/her.  I agree with Cassie--more kids doesn't mean that you can't give them what they need.  DW and I strongly believe that kids need to develop independence and self-sufficiency. Of course, we both came from large families, so we're both biased in that direction :)

It may sound callous, but there *are* significant economies of scale with more kids--everything from clothes to bedding to bedrooms to car space.  Plus, if you're in the US,  you get another $4k exemption and $1k refundable child tax credit.  But again, finances should be a secondary concern.

tobitonic

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 549
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2016, 07:04:27 PM »
To all the folks who are suggesting a 3rd child increases the risk of disorders and disabilities...keep in mind that any child can be hit by a car, fall out of a tree, suffer a concussion, etc, and end up as a quadriplegic or severely cognitively disabled (or both!) for the rest of his or her life. This can happen at any time throughout childhood. It isn't a reason not to have more children any more than it's a reason not to have any children.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 07:06:10 PM by tobitonic »

StarBright

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1473
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2016, 07:21:58 PM »
I saw your bit about children not being sleepers and had to post because we are basically in your exact situation. We always wanted three or four and the plan was to do our best to start having them two years apart starting when I was late 20s early 30s. I have two and unless a drastic change happens with my husband's job within the next year we have recently decided that we are done.

My heart aches for a third and we were seriously talking about it even though I'm the breadwinner, carry the insurance and because I work for a small company I have no maternity leave at all (just 3 weeks vacation) But - on top of this my two children are truly awful sleepers. They both consistently woke 7-10 times a night until they were about 8 months old and neither sleep through the night regularly now at 4 and 2 years old. I can actually count on my fingers and toes how many times I've slept a 6 hour stretch in the last four years.

That was my decision maker - I realized I can't be in my mid 30s running on 3-4 hours sleep for a year while still working a very full time job and parenting the other two children (not to mention the mustachian cleaning and doing all the home cooking from scratch). I will break and it would not be good for my family.

So- I guess all that to say- think about what would be best for you. For instance, I know my kids would love a sibling and lord knows my mom and MIL are begging for another grandchild but I have come to realize that I can't be the wife and mother that my family deserve, and I certainly wouldn't be my best self for many years if we added another child to our family.

Best of luck to you and hugs!

okits

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9119
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2016, 07:49:21 PM »
To all the folks who are suggesting a 3rd child increases the risk of disorders and disabilities...keep in mind that any child can be hit by a car, fall out of a tree, suffer a concussion, etc, and end up as a quadriplegic or severely cognitively disabled (or both!) for the rest of his or her life. This can happen at any time throughout childhood. It isn't a reason not to have more children any more than it's a reason not to have any children.

I can't find a comment that suggests more children increases this risk.  My comment was that every time you have a child (whether first, third, tenth, etc.) there is a possibility the child will have indefinite dependency (or, as someone else pointed out, additional medical costs.) That possibility can be a reason to never have children.  It can also be a reason to not add another to the family, if that outcome means your family's time, energy, and finances will be too stretched, given that you have other children to care for, already.  Is the probability high that this will happen?  No, but it is a possibility, and one that it's useful to think of ahead of time (or at least one will feel that way, should it happen.)

tobitonic

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 549
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2016, 07:58:58 PM »
To all the folks who are suggesting a 3rd child increases the risk of disorders and disabilities...keep in mind that any child can be hit by a car, fall out of a tree, suffer a concussion, etc, and end up as a quadriplegic or severely cognitively disabled (or both!) for the rest of his or her life. This can happen at any time throughout childhood. It isn't a reason not to have more children any more than it's a reason not to have any children.

I can't find a comment that suggests more children increases this risk. 

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you wrote?

Quote from: okits
My comment was that every time you have a child (whether first, third, tenth, etc.) there is a possibility the child will have indefinite dependency (or, as someone else pointed out, additional medical costs.)

If you have multiple children, with each child representing a possibility of "indefinite dependency," each additional child represents an additional risk...right?

abhe8

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 486
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2016, 08:01:52 PM »
If you are of the age where there might be some risk you can also have amniocentesis to see if there are any birth defects. As previously noted by another poster having a child is not usually a big gamble.
Fyi...There is "some risk" with having a baby, at any age of mother and father. And not all health concerns will be found with an amnio. And, like a pp said, risk of accident or injury is present every day of your life.

I think time and money are the costs of another child... No matter how many you already have. Economies of scale kick in more with a family of five. Dh and I are both one of three, and we have loved it. I think it mixes up the dynamic and adds a lot of fun to our families. But, if both parents are not on board, best to wait. It will be life changing, for you all, to add a third.

(Dh and I have 4 ... Would love one more. But I know that's not the norm around here.)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:03:37 PM by abhe8 »

okits

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9119
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2016, 08:05:11 PM »
I am for it, my hubs is not but will if I really wanted to. I am hoping someone can scare me away from the idea of having a third so I don't have to think about it.  Or add more light to having a third.

The idea of breastfeeding, the first year, family dynamics such as Rockstache pointed out, not sleeping until i am in my 40's becuase I have not been blessed with children who sleep through the night, possible disabilities scare me. I'm wondering if someone can shed light, financially that I have not thought of that can possibly deter me from this or would allow me to hash this through. It's hard to say since no one knows my financial situation but just some considerations others have made to go for a third or not  or even those from 3 children households would be great. TIA

I love and adore my two boys with all of my heart, we have lots to offer. I think we will be incredibly lucky to have a third boy or girl but not at the expense of my 2 other.

If you're looking for reasons not to, I'd consider the possible strain on your marriage, since your husband doesn't want another child.  Will he resent you and forever use it against you ("we had another kid because you wanted it, so I get to make this big decision on my own because you owe me" or "we can't afford X because you wanted a bigger family than I did")?  Will you resent him if he's not very supportive during your pregnancy or involved in the third child's rearing?  If fate gives you multiples or a child who is disabled will he blame you for the extra effort and expense now required?  Having a(n additional) child is a big decision, even if both partners embrace the idea wholeheartedly. If you're not both on the same page, it's better to not (or, at least, wait, and see if either of you changes your mind.)

SomedayStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 761
  • Live Long and Prosper
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2016, 08:32:58 PM »
Three in car seats is a grand ol pain in the ass.  We managed it in our Toyota corolla only by buying expensive diono radians.  Even so we only lasted a year before buying a minivan.

Vacation packages, "family" tickets to events, things of that sort are usually planned for four people.

If I do something for one child I need to be prepared to do it for all three.   Piano lessons for $100/month-do able.  Three sets of lessons is a lot more painful. 

You didn't ask for all this talk about the risks of a child, but since its been brought up...I was the first of three children.  I was a national merit scholar and totally supporting by nineteen.  The middle child is on the autism spectrum with various learning disabilities and still lives with our parents at age thirty.  The youngest child was born with cerebral palsy required 24 care and never walked or talked.

I'm not sure what the point of that anecdote was, except I am terrified that one of my children will be disabled and saw potential futures firsthand.  Yet we still chose to take the leap and had three kids ourselves.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2016, 08:33:50 PM »
Financial stuff only, it depends on your situation, but possibly the costs of maternity or paternity leave, child care, clothes, food, school expenses, activity costs, need for bigger accommodation/larger vehicle, additional travel costs for vacations, greater expense for gifts and special occasions, sacrifices to one career (or both) due to the efforts needed to wrangle an additional child...
Financial concerns definitely played a role in our choice to stop at two.  We weren't so much concerned about costs when they were young ... but we were concerned about teenaged years:  Any child of mine was always going to require braces, then car insurance and teen activities, and college.  We never set out to have children and just do the minimum to keep them alive -- we wanted to provide an environment and experiences that would help them grow into successful, happy adults.  No, that's not all about money, but money sure it is tied up in the equation! 

he idea of breastfeeding, the first year, family dynamics such as Rockstache pointed out, not sleeping until i am in my 40's becuase I have not been blessed with children who sleep through the night, possible disabilities scare me. I'm wondering if someone can shed light, financially that I have not thought of that can possibly deter me from this or would allow me to hash this through. It's hard to say since no one knows my financial situation but just some considerations others have made to go for a third or not  or even those from 3 children households would be great. TIA
Those first couple years are difficult:  Breastfeeding was easy for me, but sleeping was a killer.  Still, if I had wanted a third child, the difficulties of those first few years wouldn't have stopped me. 

I'm not speaking so much to the pure probability of the child having a serious health issue, but rather to the severity of the consequences if s/he does happen to be among the unlucky few. This is also colored by the fact that I have worked with developmentally and behaviorally challenged children. There are serious conditions (ie. autism) that cannot be tested for in utero.
You're making a major life choice based upon a remote possibility.  I suspect your job is coloring your judgement on this topic; when you work with "the unlucky few", it's very easy to feel (note I didn't say think) that this is a common thing. 

« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:43:41 PM by MrsPete »

okits

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9119
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2016, 09:02:59 PM »
To all the folks who are suggesting a 3rd child increases the risk of disorders and disabilities...keep in mind that any child can be hit by a car, fall out of a tree, suffer a concussion, etc, and end up as a quadriplegic or severely cognitively disabled (or both!) for the rest of his or her life. This can happen at any time throughout childhood. It isn't a reason not to have more children any more than it's a reason not to have any children.

I can't find a comment that suggests more children increases this risk. 

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you wrote?

Quote from: okits
My comment was that every time you have a child (whether first, third, tenth, etc.) there is a possibility the child will have indefinite dependency (or, as someone else pointed out, additional medical costs.)

If you have multiple children, with each child representing a possibility of "indefinite dependency," each additional child represents an additional risk...right?

Wording is tricky, but I'll try...

Indefinite dependency is one possible outcome for every child.  Absent other factors I'm not suggesting that each subsequent child's possibility of this outcome increases simply because there are prior children (third child is not automatically more likely than the first or second to be indefinitely dependent.)

What I'm getting from your above paragraph is that with each additional child a family increases the family's chances of having experienced this outcome with a child at least once.  Yes, that's true. 

I do think it's a consideration if the OP's family can meet the demands of that outcome, should it happen with a subsequent child.  Either because they already have responsibility for other children (who have their own existing needs and risk of accident) and will be spread that much thinner, or because they don't wish to increase the probability of their family caring for even one indefinitely dependent child (in which case your point applies.  More kids, more probability of the family needing to support at least one indefinite dependent.)

okits

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9119
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2016, 09:14:52 PM »
Luckie, this thread was started asking about two, but there are stories shared about having a third child, as well.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mini-money-mustaches/considering-a-second-child-what-was-it-like-going-from-1-to-2/

There's only ten pages of posts in the Mini Money Mustaches category, you could skim the thread titles as there are probably a few you'd find interesting (like about Mustachianism and big families, for instance.)

v8rx7guy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1423
  • Location: Bellingham, WA
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2016, 10:22:07 PM »
We have one boy and will be trying for anoher baby later this year. We hope it is a girl so that we can have one of each, but we are going into it saying it will be the last one either way. 3 kids just seems like a handful with travel and college and all of the little stuff... two has always seemed perfect to me. Like others have said, you are introducing one more small chance of risk with one more child, but no more risky than your 2nd. Also, things could get really interesting with twins or triplets! If your husband wants to be done, I wouldnt push it.... but I do understand where you are coming from, my wife wants at least one girl too.

cloudsail

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2016, 12:40:04 AM »
Some anecdotes about 3rd children:

1. My husband is the third child in his family. Despite having loving and supportive parents, he's always grown up feeling like the odd one out. His older brother and sister are great people and would do anything for their little brother, but he's always felt inferior to them. It doesn't help that they were star students and he wasn't.

2. A neighbor who has three kids also had this "odd one out" issue with her third, and in her case the older two really didn't like their little sister. Her son, when he was going through puberty and mood swings, actually threatened to kill his little sister. I do think some of this is the fault of the parents (favoring the youngest, etc.) but it's obviously harder for three kids to all get along with each other than for two. Just imagine a group of three friends and how easy it would be leave someone out, intentionally or not.

3. A close friend of mine had a 3rd baby by accident. I know the first year was extremely difficult. She obviously wouldn't regret the decision to keep him, but she also couldn't help thinking about how much easier life would be if she didn't have a baby to take care of (her older two are already in school). She'll be in her late 50s by the time he's in college.

4. One of my husband's co-workers who has three kids confessed to him that he didn't really think through some of the financial implications. Like going from one hotel room to two. Like not being able to fit three car seats in the sedan. This was right after we had our second, he said, "In case you're planning to have another one, think very carefully..."

On other hand, I have another friend who regrets not having a fourth :) So ultimately it just comes down to how much you want more babies.

bradleylsmith

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 104
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2016, 01:20:47 AM »
Life is very complex. I don't think we can say with any certainty at all whether or not having a child will help or hinder your life in any way. Undoubtedly, it will do both of these things thousands of different ways in the time you spend with him/her. The odds of a defective birth are irrelevant just as the odds of having a model come out and you're an instant millionaire are. To me it sounds like some are trying to guess the future by looking at all the extremely improbable cases - which is one of the tenants of mustachian philosophy to begin with. Don't do that!

My wife and I are seriously considering adopting a special needs child for our third (we have 2 young boys) and while I'm sure it will be extremely hard at times, and is a for life commitment... there will also be good times and joy brought in.

If there feels like someone is missing at your table when you sit down for dinner, there probably is.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2016, 04:26:31 AM »
I am the youngest of three and I don't recall any odd-one-out issues other than that sometimes people were doing things I was too young for -I'm pretty sure that's universal to childhood. We have one and hope to have four eventually.

Gray Matter

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3635
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2016, 04:50:47 AM »
To me, while it's worth thinking through the practical implications of having a third child, it's not a decision one makes based strictly on those.  If we were to be entirely practical, I don't think any of us would have children.  It's a mostly emotional decision, as it should be.

Most of my childhood, I was the middle of three children.  I liked being in the middle, as I had a playmate on either side of me.  We rarely played together all three of us, but I don't ever remember any feelings of being the odd-person-out.  Mostly one of us was off doing something else (sometimes with a parent, or friend, or just reading) and two of us were playing together.  (When I was 11, my parents adopted a fourth child, but that didn't really change the sibling dynamics).

My wife and I are seriously considering adopting a special needs child for our third (we have 2 young boys) and while I'm sure it will be extremely hard at times, and is a for life commitment... there will also be good times and joy brought in.

If there feels like someone is missing at your table when you sit down for dinner, there probably is.

We have two bio boys and when they were 3 and 5, adopted a special needs girl (18 months old).  Her needs are not severe (significant cleft palate resulting in several surgeries, ongoing orthodontia work, and years of speech therapy, learning disabilities) and have been easy to deal with.  Her therapies are just another "activity" that we go to, much like swimming lessons or karate, and health insurance covers everything (after our deductible), including the orthodontia work because it's related to her cleft palate.

I worried about her feeling like the odd person out, being the only girl, the only adopted, of a different race, but she and her brother (middle child) are much closer than the two boys are (primarily due to personality difference between the boys).  So you can never predict how these things will go.

I love having three kids and would have adopted a fourth had DH been on board.  That said, I overestimated my own ability to continually take on more and didn't make any adjustments (continued working full-time in stressful job, DH continued traveling all the time, lots of pets, we didn't get household help until a few years later) and looking back, I can see that I was overwhelmed and stressed out the first year or two after we adopted her.  BUT, those are more related to my own personality issues (perfectionism, not admitting I need help) and could have relatively easily been mitigated had I been able to admit to my own limitations.  The lesson here is to be smarter than I was about adapting your life to having three kids, rather than just thinking you cram more in, but that doesn't change the joy of having three kids.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2016, 06:05:36 AM »
Tell me what I need to consider? We are debating if we should have a third, I need to consider all financial implications/effects that I may have looked over.

The planet doesn't need more humans. If you have 2 what's driving the need to have another?

little_brown_dog

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 915
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2016, 07:04:32 AM »
I grew up in a big family. It was awesome.

Pros to larger families:
More siblings tend to mean more companions. Companions aren't just for play, they are for swapping dating advice, support when something doesn't go your way, and sharing any family burdens. This may be particularly key as parents age. I know quite a few kids who were onlies or in pairs and its much harder to care for parents and other adult responsibilities when you have fewer people to fall back on. Most people don't have friends who are so so close that they will step in and help you care for an ailing parent, but sibs will (if you have a healthy relationship that is).

The "clan" feel - some people just love big families. They love the chaos, the huge family get togethers, yes even the weird disagreements and feuds.

Cons:
Fewer resources per child. College funds will be smaller for everyone. Kids will get less alone time with the parents.

Family infighting - more personalities means more opportunities for conflict. Then again, it also means more opportunities for love.

Some studies show that people who grow up with siblings may be more inclined to be naturally altruistic - growing up with more people to consider can definitely foster that. Then again, other studies show smaller families tend to have kids who are more successful on traditional metrics like educational attainment, probably because they benefit from more resources per child. Either way, the research seems to be a wash - pick what matters to you, chances are you'll find studies that show both bigger families and smaller families achieve these things.


Sadly, we can't talk you out of wanting a baby. You two will have to decide for yourselves. Personally I loved being a kid in a large, loving group of siblings and wouldn't trade that for a bigger college fund or some of the other pros commonly associated with fewer children.  I have one daughter and plan on having at least 2 more if everything works out!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 07:22:02 AM by little_brown_dog »

little_brown_dog

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 915
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2016, 07:27:29 AM »
Tell me what I need to consider? We are debating if we should have a third, I need to consider all financial implications/effects that I may have looked over.

The planet doesn't need more humans. If you have 2 what's driving the need to have another?

I used to believe this argument, but after looking into it a bit more, my opinion changed.

The overpopulation argument makes sense if populations and resources are relatively evenly dispersed but they aren't. There are areas that have very low birthrates, and governments are actually begging their populace to have children to ensure there are sufficient workers in future generations to keep the country afloat. Then there are countries seeing population booms, usually in emerging economies like India. If you live in an industrialized nation, the birth rate usually hovers around 2, and in some countries it's even lower than replacement level. This can make up for the larger more populated areas. The counterargument is that the world isn't overpopulated persay, it's just that there are overpopulated pockets for the resources available in a given area, and we aren't willing to make the necessary infrastructure and cultural changes necessary to ensure that everyone is cared for in a sustainable fashion. The idea that if wealthy people just forgo kids everything will be better is nonsense - all that happens is that we re-route even MORE resources to those lucky few kids we do have. Just take a look at the number of 1 and 2 kid families living in huge houses to see this in action. 

Now, some could say that we should import individuals from overpopulated areas into areas where the birthrate is lower to try to "even out" the number of people without encouraging people to have more kids. But obviously that is a tough sell, for both the migrant group and the established citizenry of a specific area. There are also ethical implications involved with personal autonomy -is it fair to tell individuals it's their responsibility to not have kids just because there are segments of the population who are having more? Who knows.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 07:29:19 AM by little_brown_dog »

sjc0816

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 248
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2016, 07:51:22 AM »
Only you and your husband can make this decision!

We have two boys and stopped. They are 10 and 7 and I am SO glad we didn't have a third.  We are busy and maxed with our two -- and we don't even over-commit.  The each have a sport (one at a time) and a music (through school) extra-curricular and it's all we can handle.  We like down time....we like time at home as a family....dinners together.  Granted, you can really limit what your kids do and have down-time....but we want to give our kids the best that we can.  They are social beings and love sports and their instruments.  I knew that having more kids would not allow us to be the best parents that we can be.  I did not want to be "tired, stressed-out mama" all the time. 

With that said, I have friends with 3+ kids and they manage it all extremely well and would tell you they can't imagine their life any other way.  So, I think only you know if that is what you want.

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8010
  • Location: United States
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2016, 08:10:57 AM »

I don't quite get what you're saying. How is it a gamble? The odds are always heavily in your favor unless you're talking about people who are carrying recessive genes for bad genetic conditions. Even in your forties, for a healthy woman, the odds are still heavily in her favor.

It's still a gamble.  Always.  I carry no recessive genes, I wasn't even 35 (which is kind of the line they draw for increasing risk of genetic anomalies). I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs (though that wouldn't have mattered).  Heck, even after the baby was conceived and already HAD the horrible anomalies my screenings were still showing extremely low risk.  It was without a doubt "I never thought this could happen to us."  You shouldn't have children assuming it could never happen to you.
Heck, even if you have a 100% healthy child one day, you never know what is going to happen that will change that and make them fully dependent on you for the rest of their life.


As for the OP- having children never makes financial sense unless this is the 1800s and you need someone to help you work the farm.  That's a very odd way of looking at the decision. I'd just keep in mind that you might try for 3 and end up with 4.  I know quite a few people with surprise twins (and one with surprise triplets.)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 08:27:59 AM by iowajes »

sugarsnap

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2016, 08:16:26 AM »
I wanted three but I'm happy that we stopped at two. I still feel twinges of thinking there should be three but life is pretty great with two older kids. The world is set up nicely for families of four. If kids have activities we can have a parent at each one. We fit in smaller cars, travel is cheaper, babysitters (aka grandparents) aren't overwhelmed. I also like that I will still be fairly young when the kids graduate high school instead of pushing back the timeline a few more years.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I like peace and quiet over a full and crazy household. I think I would be overwhelmed with more.

teen persuasion

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1062
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2016, 08:34:59 AM »
Mom of 5 here - I'd be interested in knowing the ages, and number of years between each child.  We've always been of "the more, the merrier" mindset, and quit at 5 only because my age (approaching 40, beginning to be concerned about the increasing risks for birth defects), and simple logistics (minivan held 7, didn't want to need 2 vehicles to visit family, etc.).

We've found that a 2-3 year gap in ages was perfect for us.  The older was mature enough to be fairly independent when new baby joined the family, and was ready to be my "helper".  No envy, no reverting to babyisms to get attention, they liked being the big sister/brother.  They also played well together as they aged.  Kids 1 thru 4 fit this scenario, but surprise DS5 is 6.5 years younger than DS4.  It is a much bigger gap, and he really doesn't have an agemate like the others do.  Also due to the large total age span, he was exposed to many things at an earlier age than the others (scary movies, things like that).  In fact, the older ones really were less exposed to things than even DD3 and DS4, since we tried to keep things as age appropriate for the entire family as we could for as long as we could.  The older ones getting to school age changes everything.

I have found that the school years are much crazy busier than the baby toddler years.  There are so many different activities and sports they'd like to try, all seemingly at the same time.  Eventually, even if you try to double/triple up on activities (t-ball for all), the leagues begin to separate based on age and or gender.  Then the kids decide to assert their different personalities and choose differently than their siblings.  We've done t-ball, baseball, softball, soccer, XC, track, swimming, tennis, quidditch.  The kids have joined orchestra, band, jazz band, contemporary church choir, pit, musical, drama club.  They play violin, viola, cello, bass, electric bass, trumpet, tuba, piano, and sing soprano and alto. We've done 6 years of gifted math (at a university 25 miles away, 2 times a week in MS and HS), robotics, rocketclub, church youth conventions, radio academic competitions, Lego club, chess club...

Now we are down to 2 at home, approaching 1.  Two out of college, one in, one going next year, one just beginning MS and loving the freedom.  It will be very different next year with only one at home.  We are so used to constantly consulting with one another "So how many places do we need to be tonight?"  Divide and conquer is our usual MO.

teen persuasion

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1062
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2016, 08:52:41 AM »
The kids definitely influence one another.  The older kids gained maturity helping out with younger ones, the younger kids learned things from watching the olders.  The different personalities interacted, so they learned to deal with others and keep harmony (both family and musical - the kids are nuts for music).  Sometimes one's interest in something (XC, for example) led to getting others involved - recruiting DD3 when the team needed girls, DS4 tagging along to captain's practices for years before he could join.  Some times they deliberately chose to be different (DS4 started in band even though all the others joined orchestra).  Of course, then DS2 added band.  DS4, not to be outdone, added orchestra in HS (more difficult direction), and is determined to get the double music honors one else has yet.

Each kid would be so different if they had never had the influence of all of the others.  Quiet ones, drama ones, academic ones, mechanical ones, social ones.

Lanthiriel

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 802
  • Location: Portlandia
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2016, 09:03:08 AM »
I am childfree, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I am the oldest, and my mom was told she couldn't have more kids. Then she turned 30 and apparently her hormones aligned, and I wound up with sisters who are 6 and 8 years younger than me. The middle has crippling panic anxiety, which made for a VERY difficult childhood until she was properly diagnosed and treated.

I honestly feel like I was more or less on my own from the age of about 7. I had to grow up very fast and considered myself more of a third parent than a sibling to my sisters. I resented the the bejeezus out of them until they were teenagers. We're close now, but my childhood ended very early as a direct result of my siblings.

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2016, 09:13:38 AM »
This is an intensely personal decision. I agonized over the third for about two years. My husband wasn't opposed to three but was happy with two. In that sense, I was the one struggling with the decision. Maybe it's because I am the third, but I just always envisioned a family of five. We had two shitty ass sleepers, so that was really holding me back. Plus I didn't love pregnancy. Breastfeeding was okay mechanically but stressful to me emotionally. I also worried about health problems and the possibly of trying for one and getting two. This thought terrified me.

In many respects, I would be a saner, less stressed person right now if we had stopped at two. But we didn't.

Our third was born when my older two were 4 and 6. Now the youngest is 22 months old, and I have to admit -  life kicks my ass everyday. I think I was overwhelmed with all three kids during ages of 0-3, but I have certainly used more lively vocabulary to describe the young babyhood of my third boy. Phrases like, "I'm suffocating." "I can't breathe." etc. etc. come out of my mouth more often than I would like to admit. He still isn't sleeping through the night. The last 6 months have been harder than the first 6 months of his life, in large part because I am not emotionally suited to the toddler years. To be honest, I hate the toddler years.

I know that one day he will turn a corner and be more independent. It will happen. He will turn three, which is when it starts to get easier. But holy shit, life is hard right now. I still don't regret it, though. Lots of things in life are hard, but that doesn't mean that they aren't worthwhile.

For me, it boiled down to the empty chair. How many chairs do you imagine filled around your dining room or kitchen table? For me, I knew if we didn't at least try for a third, there would always be an empty chair. My good friend had four and still thought one more chair should be filled. It's not logical. It's emotional. Now that I have all my chairs filled, I really get it. My family is complete and I feel so grateful, even as I am struggling to get through the days with my sanity intact, that I was fortunate enough to be able to have the number of children I deep down wanted.

I am giving away the baby things with abandon. I jumped for joy when my husband had a vasectomy. I am happy every month when I get my period. I am completely and utterly done having babies. I couldn't have said that if I hadn't had the third. Of course, plenty of parents do just fine with the empty chair and eventually come to peace with whatever decision they make.  Or if they try and it doesn't happen, it's painful but their lives are still happy.

As far as practical matters relating to a third:

You can still have a sedan if you want. Our primary car is a Ford Fusion and we have no problem.
Most restaurant tables are built for four, so be prepared to wait longer. But who wants to go out with three kids anyway?
Hotels are more expensive.
Juggling the schedule of three kids is harder.
They do entertain each other, and unlike others on here, I like the buffer kid. If one is fighting with another, he can go play with the third kid.
I personally haven't struggled with the whole zone defense thing (http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/zone-defense-from-two-children-to-three/?_r=0). Haven't noticed a difference.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 09:16:06 AM by justajane »

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2016, 09:16:08 AM »
Go for it!!
Selfish reason: 3rd is the 'charm'. It'll be more fun and enjoyable, you've had some practice now ;)
Selfless reason: Give a new person the gift of life with good parents in a great time and place in history.

No downside.

Ceridwen

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2016, 09:29:11 AM »
We have 2 kids and absolutely no plans for a third (in fact, I got my tubes tied during my c-section - woohoo!).  For us, it was a combination of many factors that made us certain we would not want to have a third:

1) Overpopulation of the world.  I am a firm believer in not going above the "replacement rate".
2) Every family we know that has 3 kids has one who is an asshole.
3) Financially we are just more comfortable only having to support 2.  We like our 3 bedroom townhouse and small car.
4) Increased risk of health issues.  We are blessed with 2 healthy kids (so far at least, knock on wood) so why push it?
5) I love babies but I am really looking forward to getting into the "big kid" stuff with my 1 & 4 YO.

I am thrilled every single time I send a bag of baby clothes or toys out the door to donate to another family.  It feels great to be so confident in our decision.

Jesstache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 196
  • Location: CA
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2016, 10:16:17 AM »
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the risk of miscarriage.  I had two between our first and second.  Chances are at least 20% (and that's likely a low estimate).  Are you ready to have to try for that third one more than once and the possible emotional repercussions of what it's like to lose a pregnancy?  I hate to be a downer but it's a real possibility, even if you haven't had that experience in the past.

We always wanted two, possibly three if we got two of the same gender.  My first pregnancy was smooth sailing (except for the awful morning sickness) then two miscarriages.  I was pretty shocked that we had so much trouble getting a second baby to term since we had no problems the first time.  I had decided on the third try for #2 that if that pregnancy also ended in miscarriage that our daughter would be an only child.  Fortunately we were lucky to have our son join us and I got my tubes tied during my c-section.


If my first miscarriage would have been a successful pregnancy instead, our children would have been 1.5 years apart instead of 2.5 so the miscarriages delayed #2's arrival on the scene by a whole year.  Part of that is because I needed a few months after each one to psych myself up to try again.  Miscarriages are physically and emotionally draining, even if you aren't a super emotional person (which I do not consider myself to be). 

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2016, 10:32:51 AM »
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the risk of miscarriage.  I had two between our first and second.  Chances are at least 20% (and that's likely a low estimate).  Are you ready to have to try for that third one more than once and the possible emotional repercussions of what it's like to lose a pregnancy?  I hate to be a downer but it's a real possibility, even if you haven't had that experience in the past.

This is true. I had my first miscarriage between my second and my third. It was very, very difficult, but for me, it made me even more certain that I wanted a third. I don't know what I would have done if I miscarried a second time there. I'm sure I would have been devastated and very likely would have given up my desire for a third. Once we tried and "failed" the first time, I did panic a bit since we had opened the door and it had been shut in our faces so quickly.

In general, the risks of trying to have a child, delivering a child, and parenting them to adulthood and beyond are high. At any point in the journey you can and likely will experience emotional distress and pain. But the rewards are potentially high as well.

little_brown_dog

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 915
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2016, 11:58:33 AM »
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the risk of miscarriage.  I had two between our first and second.  Chances are at least 20% (and that's likely a low estimate).  Are you ready to have to try for that third one more than once and the possible emotional repercussions of what it's like to lose a pregnancy?  I hate to be a downer but it's a real possibility, even if you haven't had that experience in the past.

This is true. I had my first miscarriage between my second and my third. It was very, very difficult, but for me, it made me even more certain that I wanted a third. I don't know what I would have done if I miscarried a second time there. I'm sure I would have been devastated and very likely would have given up my desire for a third. Once we tried and "failed" the first time, I did panic a bit since we had opened the door and it had been shut in our faces so quickly.

In general, the risks of trying to have a child, delivering a child, and parenting them to adulthood and beyond are high. At any point in the journey you can and likely will experience emotional distress and pain. But the rewards are potentially high as well.

+1 - I've experienced consecutive miscarriages and one successful pregnancy/birth. You have to be ready and willing to jump in and accept the consequences (like you did with baby 1 and 2). The worst would be to try, lose the baby, and then find out your spouse is relieved and wants to call it quits when you still want to keep trying. That could be catastrophic for your emotional health and your relationship. If you do this, you both have to want it and be willing to go the distance.

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8010
  • Location: United States
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2016, 12:34:17 PM »
If my first miscarriage would have been a successful pregnancy instead, our children would have been 1.5 years apart instead of 2.5 so the miscarriages delayed #2's arrival on the scene by a whole year.  Part of that is because I needed a few months after each one to psych myself up to try again.  Miscarriages are physically and emotionally draining, even if you aren't a super emotional person (which I do not consider myself to be).

I'm still trying for #1, but this is something that has really struck me hard about my stillbirth. I'm older now, and I still don't have kids.  The doctor told me to wait 6 months between delivery and even trying again. And it took us 5 months to conceive him.  And he was 7 months when I lost him. It just feels like so much wasted time.

I've honestly been able to emotionally deal with the loss, though at first I wasn't sure how I'd ever be able to live life again, but the time is something that I just can't deal with.  Maybe not being able to have the third would be easier than not being able to have the first, I don't know. But not having him was insanely difficult.

Ceridwen

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Canada
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2016, 12:37:25 PM »
If my first miscarriage would have been a successful pregnancy instead, our children would have been 1.5 years apart instead of 2.5 so the miscarriages delayed #2's arrival on the scene by a whole year.  Part of that is because I needed a few months after each one to psych myself up to try again.  Miscarriages are physically and emotionally draining, even if you aren't a super emotional person (which I do not consider myself to be).

I'm still trying for #1, but this is something that has really struck me hard about my stillbirth. I'm older now, and I still don't have kids.  The doctor told me to wait 6 months between delivery and even trying again. And it took us 5 months to conceive him.  And he was 7 months when I lost him. It just feels like so much wasted time.

I've honestly been able to emotionally deal with the loss, though at first I wasn't sure how I'd ever be able to live life again, but the time is something that I just can't deal with.  Maybe not being able to have the third would be easier than not being able to have the first, I don't know. But not having him was insanely difficult.

I am so sorry for your loss.  I had an early miscarriage in between my two kids, and I found it to be devastating.  I cannot even imagine the pain of a stillbirth.

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2016, 12:48:38 PM »
If my first miscarriage would have been a successful pregnancy instead, our children would have been 1.5 years apart instead of 2.5 so the miscarriages delayed #2's arrival on the scene by a whole year.  Part of that is because I needed a few months after each one to psych myself up to try again.  Miscarriages are physically and emotionally draining, even if you aren't a super emotional person (which I do not consider myself to be).

I'm still trying for #1, but this is something that has really struck me hard about my stillbirth. I'm older now, and I still don't have kids.  The doctor told me to wait 6 months between delivery and even trying again. And it took us 5 months to conceive him.  And he was 7 months when I lost him. It just feels like so much wasted time.

I've honestly been able to emotionally deal with the loss, though at first I wasn't sure how I'd ever be able to live life again, but the time is something that I just can't deal with.  Maybe not being able to have the third would be easier than not being able to have the first, I don't know. But not having him was insanely difficult.

I am so sorry for your loss.  I had an early miscarriage in between my two kids, and I found it to be devastating.  I cannot even imagine the pain of a stillbirth.

Yes, I am also extremely sorry for all that you have had to go through. Since no one likes to talk about miscarriage, I spent a lot of time reading online forums and such after my miscarriage. I found a lot of people saying, "A loss of a fetus is a loss no matter when it occurs, whether it be six weeks or 30 weeks." This is certainly true, but the magnitude of grief that you have had to deal with is especially profound and I would say worse. I guess grief in general cannot be compared, but I do think miscarriage and stillbirth before you have another child is particularly cruel and painful.