Author Topic: Thoughts on having a third child??  (Read 26969 times)

I'm a red panda

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2016, 01:29:03 PM »
Quote
I found a lot of people saying, "A loss of a fetus is a loss no matter when it occurs, whether it be six weeks or 30 weeks." This is certainly true, but the magnitude of grief that you have had to deal with is especially profound and I would say worse.
I think miscarriage would have a lot associated with it that I didn't have to go through.  Depending on how early the miscarriage is, you may never be able to have testing done. So you may always wonder what went wrong; and could it have been "your fault".

I'm also grateful I got to hold my son, and get to "know" him, or at least pretend I could since he would kick for some things specifically. He already had a name. We have his ashes. In some ways I think a miscarriage would have been easier, rationally, I knew it was a possibility, whereas this I never considered could be, but in other ways I don't. A loss is a loss.

And because so many people have miscarriages, people minimize it as something you are supposed to get over. (Miscarriages are supposed to be a secret- to the point that many won't even tell people they are pregnant "just in case". That makes it even harder to grieve one.) Nearly everyone loses a parent too- but we let people grieve that appropriately. You don't expect people just to get over it because it happens to nearly everyone. 

To tie this back into this particular thread- I think all of this would be really hard to deal with if you already had 2 kids and were waffling on the third. Because when parents go through grief of this magnitude, the kids do too.  Like I said, I don't have kids, but I have nieces and nephews. The oldest of whom know the baby who was going to be their cousin died. They know what a pregnancy is, and what is supposed to result from it.

Letj

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2016, 07:17:00 PM »
Tell me what I need to consider? We are debating if we should have a third, I need to consider all financial implications/effects that I may have looked over.

The planet doesn't need more humans. If you have 2 what's driving the need to have another?

I used to believe this argument, but after looking into it a bit more, my opinion changed.

The overpopulation argument makes sense if populations and resources are relatively evenly dispersed but they aren't. There are areas that have very low birthrates, and governments are actually begging their populace to have children to ensure there are sufficient workers in future generations to keep the country afloat. Then there are countries seeing population booms, usually in emerging economies like India. If you live in an industrialized nation, the birth rate usually hovers around 2, and in some countries it's even lower than replacement level. This can make up for the larger more populated areas. The counterargument is that the world isn't overpopulated persay, it's just that there are overpopulated pockets for the resources available in a given area, and we aren't willing to make the necessary infrastructure and cultural changes necessary to ensure that everyone is cared for in a sustainable fashion. The idea that if wealthy people just forgo kids everything will be better is nonsense - all that happens is that we re-route even MORE resources to those lucky few kids we do have. Just take a look at the number of 1 and 2 kid families living in huge houses to see this in action. 

Now, some could say that we should import individuals from overpopulated areas into areas where the birthrate is lower to try to "even out" the number of people without encouraging people to have more kids. But obviously that is a tough sell, for both the migrant group and the established citizenry of a specific area. There are also ethical implications involved with personal autonomy -is it fair to tell individuals it's their responsibility to not have kids just because there are segments of the population who are having more? Who knows.

Good points plus the people in areas or countries that have a lot of children are often ill equipped to take care of them and provide a proper upbringing and education. This often aggravates their already existing societal problems.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2016, 07:23:07 PM »
Agreed that overpopulation is not really a reason. Educated populations have trouble reproducing themselves.

Send $100 to an organization that works for birth control or the education of girls in Africa or something like that, and I say you can procreate guilt-free :-).

former player

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2016, 01:54:06 AM »
Agreed that overpopulation is not really a reason. Educated populations have trouble reproducing themselves.

Send $100 to an organization that works for birth control or the education of girls in Africa or something like that, and I say you can procreate guilt-free :-).
Does that ":-)"  make these statements a joke?  Because the implications of that "joke" are profoundly unfunny

BigBangWeary

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2016, 03:06:12 AM »
iowajes I am sorry for your loss. It is hard to be in a world surrounded by people who do not understand what you are going through. In so many ways the loss of an unborn child is the same as losing a living one, and studies have shown that dealing with infertility can be as difficult emotionally as fighting cancer.

We tried for 5 years and did multiple IVFs in multiple countries, lost a child in the process, spent a significant sum and finally made peace with the idea of not having our own. Two years from that low we had a total of 3 ... I know it doesn't always end that way, but I was convinced it would never, ever, ever happen for us.

Anyways, all of this is deeply personal and we all have our own perspectives, however I do really believe it is about choices. I grew up as one of 3 and we did lots of thing, they just tended to be free. And there are plenty of organizations and activities that don't cost a cent. I think too many parents spend too much time running around trying to 'plan' developmental activities etc. that are not better than the many cheap or no-cost options.

I only had two aunts and two uncles as well, and I was always a bit jealous of the bigger families in my friendship group who had so many extended family members. In some ways, as the Western world becomes smaller and more me-focused I think we lose something.

I also have serious doubts about population rates significantly decreasing as many in the West decide to reduce family sizes. I have lived and worked in many parts of the world that are working hard to fill those empty spots. And they will.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2016, 08:36:45 AM »
Agreed that overpopulation is not really a reason. Educated populations have trouble reproducing themselves.

Send $100 to an organization that works for birth control or the education of girls in Africa or something like that, and I say you can procreate guilt-free :-).
Does that ":-)"  make these statements a joke?  Because the implications of that "joke" are profoundly unfunny

No, it's not a joke. I think adding to your family when you want to can be lovely and a happy idea. I see how I came across as flippant, which is not my intention.

Reasonable people can disagree, but I do think offhand that rather than limiting the size of YOUR family in a population that is NOT reproducing itself, you would do more good by helping people limit THEIR families in places that are having trouble keeping their children alive and healthy. Send money for building toilets in schools so girls can still go when they are menstruating; donate cloth menstrual pads for the same purpose; do some research and figure out where some dollars could do the most good. Whatever.

former player

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2016, 08:48:04 AM »
Agreed that overpopulation is not really a reason. Educated populations have trouble reproducing themselves.

Send $100 to an organization that works for birth control or the education of girls in Africa or something like that, and I say you can procreate guilt-free :-).
Does that ":-)"  make these statements a joke?  Because the implications of that "joke" are profoundly unfunny

No, it's not a joke. I think adding to your family when you want to can be lovely and a happy idea. I see how I came across as flippant, which is not my intention.

Reasonable people can disagree, but I do think offhand that rather than limiting the size of YOUR family in a population that is NOT reproducing itself, you would do more good by helping people limit THEIR families in places that are having trouble keeping their children alive and healthy. Send money for building toilets in schools so girls can still go when they are menstruating; donate cloth menstrual pads for the same purpose; do some research and figure out where some dollars could do the most good. Whatever.
Actually what is comes across as is saying that rich white people should have as many children as they like while poor black people in Africa shouldn't and it's fine because the rich white people are educated and don't have enough children and the poor black people aren't educated and have too many.  Which I trust was not your intention, even flippantly.

MayDay

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2016, 10:10:33 AM »
Well this got a bit off topic.

We had 2.  I wanted 3.  Well kind of- I wanted a third but I also wanted to sleep.  We would definitely have had a 3rd if our first 2 had slept through the night before age 2. 

I knew that to get through the first year of a 3rd baby, I would need to hire help (no family nearby).  I know that even though there is an economy of scale with kids, they are also insanely expensive if you plan to put them in extracurricular activities, take them on vacations, or help them with college.  We *could* afford it fine, but it didn't quite seem worth the trade-off. 

Will I always regret a tiny bit not having a 3rd?  Yes, but if we had a 3rd I have no doubt I would always regret a tiny bit not being able to help the kids more, go on more vacations, etc.  People say you'll never regret the ones you have, just the ones you didn't.  That is a load of horse poo- it goes both ways. 

I am one of 3 by the way.  It was fine.  2 kids will be fine too.  Its all a crapshoot in terms of health of your kids- but more kids increases the odds of something going wrong (my first kid has autism- its not cheap to manage, and its one of the reasons we decided not to pursue adopting a 3rd kid).  You may never be totally at peace with the decision (and your husband may never be totally at peace if you guys do decide to have a 3rd).  Thats ok- over time, whatever you choose will become the new normal.

GuitarStv

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2016, 10:12:28 AM »
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 - GuitarStv's thoughts on having more children than you have hands.

GorgeousSteak

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2016, 01:36:37 PM »
I think everyone has pretty much covered it.  We have 2 kids and have decided not to have a 3rd, for most of the reasons everyone else has given (expensive, done with sleep and time deprivation, having a third doesn't seem like it would add significant happiness even if those things were not an issue).  My only addition is that I would definitely wait longer if you're unsure about your husband's desire to do this.  If you pressure him, or force him, or persuade him against his true will, you're endangering your marriage.

farmerj

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2016, 08:28:22 PM »
We have three - nearly 5, nearly 3, and ~1/2. They get along really well. Older kids "play with" and are considerate of their sibling even though he can't do much yet. Well, mainly the 3 year old, on account of her natural interests. At least at this point we really have spent very little - pre-existing supplies and the wisdom to know what isn't needed and the experience to find the very cheapest diapers. Lack of sleep is really the only issue, but that should get better with age.

I was the oldest of 3. Huge age gap between myself and my siblings: 7 & 9 years apart. I wasn't great with them when we were young: in-home babysitter/3rd parent. It was a good thing the youngest came along because it gave the middle one someone to play with. Now that we're old, we get along great and it's going to be a blessing having additional hands to help with our parents, cousins to be playmates with, etc.


Merrie

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2016, 06:18:02 PM »
Personally I'm on the fence about a third but I don't find the overpopulation argument to be all that convincing. One kid more or less is not going to make or break the planet. I realize this falls apart when/if everyone uses this reasoning, but most people don't use this reasoning. In industrialized nations with access to birth control most families seem content with 0, 1, or 2. A smaller portion go for 3 and an even smaller portion for larger families than that.

As for the "poor people in third world countries should have fewer babies" discussion, I think the missing piece of the discussion above is that probably a lot of those people would LIKE to have fewer babies if they had the option, so I don't see a downside to helping them have that option (i.e. get birth control) if they want to exercise it.

muckety_muck

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2016, 06:51:27 PM »
We're on the fence about a third. I have this nagging feeling that our family is not complete. Not sure what to do about it. I try to live with no regrets...........

Going from 0 to 1 was more difficult than we could have imagined (yes we were that naive)
Going from 1 to 2 was hard, but much much easier than 0 to 1.
I imagine that some parts of going from 2 to 3 will be easier (economies of scale) but some aspects will be much harder (what if all 3 kids have an "event" at 10am on Saturday morning, at three different places? No longer able to divide & conquer)

As far as overpopulation, etc... my view is that if you are an engaged/active parent, with the means (both monetarily and emotionally and LOVE to give) to be able to handle 3, do it. We have a couple friend with 6 kids... they are amazing parents and their kids are amazing as well. If we come close to 50% of what they've accomplished in raising their kids, we will have done something great in this world. On the other hand, I think there should be more birth control method education in this country. Teaching abstinence is not going to cut it.

Good luck with your decision!

Larabeth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2016, 07:00:05 PM »
I tend to strongly disagree with the idea of having more than two.  At that point, adopt if you want to take care of another one!!!   Overpopulation bothers me.  I grew up in Alabama though, where people seem to have tons of kids out of rural tradition (I suppose, I really don't know why they feel the urge to pop out so many).

I have never been privy to a logical reason for wanting more than two.  It's always an emotional "We wanted another one" or "We were hoping for a girl/boy since we already have ___ of the opposite sex".
Well then ADOPT, people.  Adopt.

But to each their own. =)

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2016, 07:12:09 PM »
^ Meh; one could easily make the same argument about the lack of a logical reason for wanting more than one. Or zero. The entire process of wanting children is emotional beyond the biological parts of it.

Merrie

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2016, 07:27:18 PM »
Odds are (for me, having done it twice already without much difficulty) that getting pregnant and having a baby will be a lot easier, faster, and cheaper than adopting. Obviously that is not the case for everyone, but it's true for a good majority of wannabe parents. So, there's that too.

That said, I have thought about adopting from foster care when my kids are older, instead of or in addition to going for a third bio kid. But I do feel like the odds are that it won't be too difficult to have a third bio kid, while adopting from foster care could be a real crapshoot, and that's something I need to take into account when making that decision--and obviously, if something about my situation changed regarding how likely or easy it was to have a third bio kid, the variables would change yet again. There's no one solution for everyone.

Larabeth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2016, 07:28:36 PM »
^ Meh; one could easily make the same argument about the lack of a logical reason for wanting more than one. Or zero. The entire process of wanting children is emotional beyond the biological parts of it.

Yes, but I also think emotional is OK up to a certain point, but at some point you become irresponsible in my mind.  But like I mentioned, this is just my view point and why I make personal decisions: I wouldn't want to go so far as to demand this is how everyone should be.  People should be cognizant of their impact on the environment long-term and part of that is having more children than replace you...

Personally?  I may have one of my own but I lean more and more toward only adoption for my personal situation.

Larabeth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2016, 07:29:42 PM »
There's no one solution for everyone.

Exactly.  I have my viewpoint on it, and it is strong for me, but I acquiesce to the fact that others have a very different situation. =)

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2016, 07:32:03 PM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

JustTrying

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2016, 07:34:55 PM »
I'm in agreement with rockstache. I was the middle of three, and honestly, I would never have 3 kids. 1,2,4,5, whatever, but it was truly awful being the middle of three. (When you're the middle you're the greatest competition for both the youngest and the oldest, so you end up being very disliked). I took the hatred of my sisters and became a very accomplished and strong individual, so I can't say it was all bad, but I would never have 3 children because of what I went through.

However, I think you were talking about financial concerns, and for that everyone gave you good points: college costs, child care costs, vacation costs, etc. Not sure if anyone brought up the possibility of needing to upgrade your car to fit 3 car seats, but that's something to consider as well.


MayDay

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2016, 07:51:51 PM »
Mrsmeganmustaxhe, I did not use CIO, Ferber, etc as I consider sleep training unethical until babies have object permanence around 15 months.

But past 15 months, they still did not fucking sleep despite all efforts.  Trust me, if your kid did sleep, you should shut your mouth about sleep before someone decks you with a cast iron skillet, which you will fully deserve.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 05:27:26 AM by MayDay »

justajane

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2016, 08:09:27 PM »
But past 15 months, they still did not fucking sleep despite all efforts.  Trust me, if your kid did sleep, you should shut your mouth about sleep before someone decks you with a cast iron skillet, which you will fully deserve.

Haha. Preach it. Parents of shitty sleepers unite. None of my kids slept through the night until they were over two. My first didn't sleep through the night until he was three, maybe even later. My sleep deprived brain really can't remember anymore. 

My 21 month old still wakes up about 3-4 times a night. It sucks, but whatever. I reject anyone who says it is my fault. Some kids don't respond to CIO or sleep training. We can't control everything in life.

IIRC, the MMMs didn't have a second in large part because of sleep issues. I can totally understand this. I almost didn't have a third because of it. So what if that's what keeps you from having another kid? Something has got to make the decision for you. It might as well be something as important as sleep.

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2016, 08:10:40 PM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this. That said, while we didn't do CIO, we definitely tried the techniques advocated in Bringing Up Bebe with our second and were already naturally using some of the techniques before encountering the book with our first. Our first started doing her nights at around 2 or 3 months, and our second (with whom we stuck pretty closely to the BUB suggestions) started doing them at 2 weeks. The thing is that for the folks who believe that baby sleep is predominantly genetic, rather than cultural, every story of parents who did anything to teach sleep hygiene will be somewhere on the scale of child abuse. Of course, for the folks who believe that baby sleep is predominantly cultural and not genetic, the idea of having babies who wake up 3 or more times a night until they're 1 or 2 will seem like lunacy.

Emg03063

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2016, 08:39:09 PM »
Allow me to add one more voice to the "Don't do it, the earth is overpopulated" chorus.  I would never advise someone to make major life decisions based on the opinion of random strangers on the internet, but if you do decide to deliberately have a third child, you will earn my scorn, for what that's worth.  Having three kids in any society that is consuming more than a sustainable level of resources (and most countries in the world today are) is completely socially irresponsible, IMO.  More on that here:  www.globalfootprintnetwork.org  Even if your particular country is "struggling to sustain replacement population", that's a problem easily solved by immigration today and for the long foreseeable future.  Not a reason to have a third kid.  The simple math is that everyone who makes that decision increases their family's resource consumption by 50% on a per generation basis, or your kids make do with less than you did.  Neither of those outcomes are ones I consider to be either responsible or loving, but those are my personal values.  YMMV.

Larabeth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2016, 11:09:25 PM »
Having three kids in any society that is consuming more than a sustainable level of resources (and most countries in the world today are) is completely socially irresponsible, IMO.  ...
The simple math is that everyone who makes that decision increases their family's resource consumption by 50% on a per generation basis, or your kids make do with less than you did. 
Well put.

justajane

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2016, 05:37:48 AM »
Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second. Have you done a poll or something or is this just a assumption that you made out of thin air?

Go to the recent thread about "I hate breastfeeding" and you will find almost exclusive support and permission (not that she needed it) for her to quit, in light of her obvious difficulties and distress. This wouldn't have occurred if what you say is true.

I just don't like putting people in parenting boxes like that. I don't consider myself wedded to "attachment parenting" any more than I am to any other philosophy.

Talk to a parent some time who had a fabulous sleeper and a not so great second sleeper. First they patted themselves on the back for how well they established healthy sleep habits with the first. Then number two came around and threw that all out the window. None of the same tactics worked. Apparently they didn't have as much control over the process as they thought they did.

I will grant you that sleep training works for some kids. And FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it perfectly harmless on a child over six months. Even before that, it is nowhere near child abuse. It just wasn't what we wanted to do, nor is it this magic bullet for every child who has ever been born. Anyone who tells you that they let their child cry for 15 minutes and they slept through the night for the rest of their babyhood was going to sleep well without that 15 minute crying session. Even Ferber grants that often travel, sickness or any other change in routine will mean you have to re-sleep train. We just didn't want to do that. That doesn't make me a Sears-loving attachment parent. It just makes me someone who made my own decisions about what I wanted and didn't want to do.

GuitarStv

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2016, 06:52:06 AM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

My son was a colicky baby.  He didn't sleep through the night until he was nearly two.  Probably averaged about 3 hrs of screaming each 8 hour period that we were trying to sleep for the first year.  Now that he's more than two he will sleep through the night maybe three or four days a week, waking up to scream for 5-10 minutes 3-4 times each other night.  We tried sleep training/controlled crying/CIO.  It didn't work.  Nothing worked.  We just learned to sleep with earplugs and accept not getting much sleep as the new normal.

My theory is that people who have children who sleep through the night well don't really know what they're talking about when it comes to poorly sleeping children because they haven't had one.  Sleep deprivation is hell.  It changes who you are to someone worse.  It is absolutely a valid reason not have another kid, and shouldn't be questioned by someone who has never experienced it.

partgypsy

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2016, 07:31:13 AM »
Allow me to add one more voice to the "Don't do it, the earth is overpopulated" chorus.  I would never advise someone to make major life decisions based on the opinion of random strangers on the internet, but if you do decide to deliberately have a third child, you will earn my scorn, for what that's worth.  Having three kids in any society that is consuming more than a sustainable level of resources (and most countries in the world today are) is completely socially irresponsible, IMO.  More on that here:  www.globalfootprintnetwork.org  Even if your particular country is "struggling to sustain replacement population", that's a problem easily solved by immigration today and for the long foreseeable future.  Not a reason to have a third kid.  The simple math is that everyone who makes that decision increases their family's resource consumption by 50% on a per generation basis, or your kids make do with less than you did.  Neither of those outcomes are ones I consider to be either responsible or loving, but those are my personal values.  YMMV.
I agree with this. People in US consume disproportionately more resources than a person in developing countries, an argument against having multiple kids. The replacement issue is easily solved by immigration from less well off countries. My husband except for momentarily didn't want a third kid, but we were both in agreement a) not to have a 3rd child, or b) if we did have a 3rd kid it would be adopted.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 07:32:58 AM by partgypsy »

StarBright

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2016, 07:43:50 AM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

I had horrible sleepers and we did attempt to sleep train with multiple methods with both. With my first we gave up on Ferber when each night started getting progressively worse instead of better. Eventually he started vomiting from crying so hard and tried to climb out of the crib at about 8 months old (he fell).   

We did the "no cry sleep solution" and it worked a bit better and I would even say it helped both kids. But even then they went from 7-10 wake ups a night to 4-5 so I was still seriously sleep deprived.  At two and four they still wake up a lot (I was up two times last night and my husband got up once).

I've come to the conclusion my kids are bad sleepers and at this point I'm pretty sure it is genetic. I've never needed a ton of sleep, give me 5 hours a night and I'm good to go. It takes me at least 45 minutes to fall asleep at night and my kids are the same (my husband conks out in about 5 minutes).

little_brown_dog

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2016, 08:28:12 AM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this. That said, while we didn't do CIO, we definitely tried the techniques advocated in Bringing Up Bebe with our second and were already naturally using some of the techniques before encountering the book with our first. Our first started doing her nights at around 2 or 3 months, and our second (with whom we stuck pretty closely to the BUB suggestions) started doing them at 2 weeks. The thing is that for the folks who believe that baby sleep is predominantly genetic, rather than cultural, every story of parents who did anything to teach sleep hygiene will be somewhere on the scale of child abuse. Of course, for the folks who believe that baby sleep is predominantly cultural and not genetic, the idea of having babies who wake up 3 or more times a night until they're 1 or 2 will seem like lunacy.

For the record, you can "attachment parent" and still help a baby learn to self sooth and sleep effectively - they aren't mutually exclusive. We co-sleep (safely, with baby in her own bassinet right up next to our bed) and all it took was reaching a hand in and placing it on her chest to lull her back to sleep when she fussed. Now at 4 months, she overall is a great sleeper. Part of this is due to her personality (very laid back, happy baby, rarely cries except when physically uncomfortable or lonely) but I also think it is due to the fact that we never "rewarded" general fussiness and avoided overstimulating her when we knew she was safe/comfortable/fed/dry at night. The hand technique was great, it says "I'm here, I'm with you" but also "it is time for bed, we aren't getting up." It also avoids the stimulation caused by picking a baby up and moving them, which can further wake an otherwise drowsy baby.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 08:31:46 AM by little_brown_dog »

little_brown_dog

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2016, 08:51:39 AM »
Allow me to add one more voice to the "Don't do it, the earth is overpopulated" chorus.  I would never advise someone to make major life decisions based on the opinion of random strangers on the internet, but if you do decide to deliberately have a third child, you will earn my scorn, for what that's worth.  Having three kids in any society that is consuming more than a sustainable level of resources (and most countries in the world today are) is completely socially irresponsible, IMO.  More on that here:  www.globalfootprintnetwork.org  Even if your particular country is "struggling to sustain replacement population", that's a problem easily solved by immigration today and for the long foreseeable future.  Not a reason to have a third kid.  The simple math is that everyone who makes that decision increases their family's resource consumption by 50% on a per generation basis, or your kids make do with less than you did.  Neither of those outcomes are ones I consider to be either responsible or loving, but those are my personal values.  YMMV.
I agree with this. People in US consume disproportionately more resources than a person in developing countries, an argument against having multiple kids. The replacement issue is easily solved by immigration from less well off countries. My husband except for momentarily didn't want a third kid, but we were both in agreement a) not to have a 3rd child, or b) if we did have a 3rd kid it would be adopted.

I take issue with the "easily solved" part. You are talking about massive re-distributions of populations into unknown countries where they will have to assimilate. And immigrant populations usually continue to produce higher numbers of children over their first few generations in the new country as well....so it's not like they will move to a new country and poof! they'll stop having more than the "allowable" 2 kids. Not to mention that immigrant groups typically are less educated in the first few generations, so they don't solve an immediate need for workers in all sectors. Finally, mass migrations often leave the originating areas in even more deplorable states, resulting in fewer resources like birth control and healthcare for the remaining population (so it's not like it solves the birth control issue there). It is true that the US consumes a disproportionate amount of resources, but this could be addressed in far more appropriate ways than telling people they suck for having more than 2 kids.How about we drastically reduce or eliminate meat and dairy production and reroute all those resources to growing sustainable grains and vegetables? Or put oil and gas caps on the population, not allowing people to consume more than a specific amount per year? What if we put a moratorium on any new homes over 1600sq feet? Either way, I think the idea of congratulating yourself for not having a 3rd kid as a selfless altruistic act is a touch naive, and judgmental to boot. If a smaller family works for you, then that is fabulous! But don't think it makes you a better person.

Unless you are an off the grid, vegan hippie who eschews fossil fuels (including any index investments that support these industries) and anything produced by big ag/big fashion/big pharma/logging/etc, it's tough to cast aspersions against someone with 3 kids without looking seriously hypocritical. If you are said hippe, my hat is off to you. You have certainly earned the right to look down on the rest of us.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:06:50 AM by little_brown_dog »

COlady

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2016, 09:31:40 AM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

I have 10 month old fraternal twin boys. I think this gives me a unique perspective on sleep and sleep training. My boys have been raised exactly the same thus far. We did modified CIO when they were around 6 months old. One responded great and learned how to go to sleep easily. The other one got so worked up that it took him 10x longer to go to sleep than if you just cuddled and rocked him down. Now they both sleep through the night at 10 months. In my opinion sleep training is a joke. A baby is born a good or bad sleeper. My guy that responeed great to sleep training responded well because he was a great sleeper to begin with, not because I am some magical sleep genie! I tell my pregnant friends - Read all the sleep books you want. You'll drive yourself crazy, because your babies didn't read the books...

COlady

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2016, 09:32:59 AM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

I think you are lucky in that you got a good sleeper!

COlady

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2016, 09:36:18 AM »


Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second. Have you done a poll or something or is this just a assumption that you made out of thin air?

Go to the recent thread about "I hate breastfeeding" and you will find almost exclusive support and permission (not that she needed it) for her to quit, in light of her obvious difficulties and distress. This wouldn't have occurred if what you say is true.

I just don't like putting people in parenting boxes like that. I don't consider myself wedded to "attachment parenting" any more than I am to any other philosophy.

Talk to a parent some time who had a fabulous sleeper and a not so great second sleeper. First they patted themselves on the back for how well they established healthy sleep habits with the first. Then number two came around and threw that all out the window. None of the same tactics worked. Apparently they didn't have as much control over the process as they thought they did.

I will grant you that sleep training works for some kids. And FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it perfectly harmless on a child over six months. Even before that, it is nowhere near child abuse. It just wasn't what we wanted to do, nor is it this magic bullet for every child who has ever been born. Anyone who tells you that they let their child cry for 15 minutes and they slept through the night for the rest of their babyhood was going to sleep well without that 15 minute crying session. Even Ferber grants that often travel, sickness or any other change in routine will mean you have to re-sleep train. We just didn't want to do that. That doesn't make me a Sears-loving attachment parent. It just makes me someone who made my own decisions about what I wanted and didn't want to do.

 Thank you! My point indeed! I just want to give huge eye rolls to people who claim they have great sleeper because they did sleep training. No! You have a good sleeper because you gave birth to a child that sleeps easily not because you're a fucking sleep genie. Okay, I'm off my high horse.

cloudsail

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2016, 10:44:35 AM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

I have 10 month old fraternal twin boys. I think this gives me a unique perspective on sleep and sleep training. My boys have been raised exactly the same thus far. We did modified CIO when they were around 6 months old. One responded great and learned how to go to sleep easily. The other one got so worked up that it took him 10x longer to go to sleep than if you just cuddled and rocked him down. Now they both sleep through the night at 10 months. In my opinion sleep training is a joke. A baby is born a good or bad sleeper. My guy that responeed great to sleep training responded well because he was a great sleeper to begin with, not because I am some magical sleep genie! I tell my pregnant friends - Read all the sleep books you want. You'll drive yourself crazy, because your babies didn't read the books...

Hear hear.

The great thing about having more than 1 kid is that it makes you realize you can't ever give another parent advice based on your own experience with your 1 kid. Because every baby is different. My son was a laid back baby and never cried for more than a few minutes at a time. When he was a few months old I was daydreaming about baby #2. Then my daughter comes along and she can scream for over an hour. Even nursing didn't help her get back to sleep at night. I am never, ever going to have a third.

aFrugalFather

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2016, 11:11:29 AM »
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 - GuitarStv's thoughts on having more children than you have hands.

Luckily the wife and I both have two hands each so 4 is not a problem.  :)

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2016, 11:13:34 AM »
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 - GuitarStv's thoughts on having more children than you have hands.

Luckily the wife and I both have two hands each so 4 is not a problem.  :)
And if you've got a double stroller, you can seat-belt in the youngest two, and you can handle six easily!

fiveoh

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2016, 11:13:59 AM »
1st baby - horrible sleeper in spite of trying lots of things.  He's 4 now and stil doesnt like to sleep although he does sleep thru the night 3-4 nights a week.  I'm convinced its his personality, hes always "doing something" and making plans.

2nd baby -was prepared for one like the 1st and was pleasantly surprised by a "good sleeper".  SOO much easier.  His personality is more laid back as well.

We both kind of want a 3rd but I DONT want another bad sleeper and thats a huge factor for me.  The rest of the crap I can handle but not another 2 years of sleep deprivation.

Good luck OP, whatever you decide. 

mamagoose

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2016, 11:24:30 AM »
As the 3rd child, I'll say it's easy for one kid to become the third wheel at any moment. This peaked for me in middle school (groaning just thinking about it now). Kids can be mean, even to their siblings, when they feel they aren't getting enough attention (i.e. parents split 3 ways).

HazelStone

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2016, 12:41:56 PM »
To me the question isn't so much how many kids are being born, but how many are being born into stable family situations (however you want to define that) and are being raised to be well-adjusted, productive adults. Many of us would say that our collective record isn't so great on that. But what matters is your individual situation; what resources you are able and willing to bring into it. We've also had a "baby bust" in recent years, so one can argue the school and university systems have room for the kids born now or a couple years ago.

In my view, people are welcome to have however many kids they want that they can provide for on a decent level. That is also a subjective concept, I know. One aunt/uncle pair in my family had 5 kids; they're awesome parents and the kids all turned out well. Should they have stopped at 3? (There was a late life surprise on the youngest). Those kids did not have a lot of fancy toys growing up, and they were mostly on their own for college, but those "kids" all look out for each other. My dad was one of seven and while there are a few issues in family dynamics, the benefits outweighed the costs for the most part. Being part of a close knit, supportive family is something money can't buy. However, one of my other cousins is an only child, and his parents wouldn't have been doing the world a favor by having a second one...even though they could well afford it.

Providing zero money for education I think is irresponsible nowadays... so that does fit into the "big picture" cost. But I am only on the "trying to conceive" end myself, and am going to a fertility clinic. Having ONE kid is the question for me and Sweetie right now, much less 3. :-/

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #90 on: February 03, 2016, 01:10:43 PM »
Thank you all for indulging my side-tracking this discussion to poor sleep/sleep training. Many of you have helped me appreciate the point that some kids do not respond to sleep training and that contributes to some parents’ poor sleep. The story of the twins is particularly fascinating. It also sounds like some of the poor sleep for some parents’ could possibly be reduced with use of sleep training, but that some parents do not want to use it, for various reasons.

I will take issue with a few of the responses suggesting that sleep ability is all genetic or that sleep training doesn’t work. The best research indicates that it does work, on average. See this nice review of the research (about half way down the page) http://scienceofmom.com/2012/03/09/infant-sleep-research-cosleeping-self-soothing-and-sleep-training/. And here is the link to an academic review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17068979. There is high quality evidence from large, well-controlled randomized trials that sleep training improves kids sleep (on average) and is not damaging to children.
That doesn’t mean it will work for all kids. I think it is safe to say that there are kids that are great sleepers no matter what is done, kids that are bad sleepers no matter what is done, but clearly there are many that respond to sleep training as evidenced by the above cited research. My kid was by no means a great sleeper (and still isn't a great sleeper), but I found that sleep training was rapidly effective in improving his sleeping (so far; I accept that things could go to hell any time now). It also helps that I'm a good sleeper and can quickly get back to sleep after he wakes me up. For the record, I hope to have one more kid, and I hope I am so luck as to have one that is responsive to sleep training.

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #91 on: February 03, 2016, 07:26:22 PM »
Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second.

Meh, you don't have to. It's been my observation from these kinds of threads, and I stand by everything I wrote. And my greater point, which you conveniently excised in your quotation (I can do that too!) is that if you believe baby sleep is primarily genetic, you're not going to buy the idea that you can teach kids good sleep habits. If you believe it's primarily cultural, you're not going to buy the idea that you're at the mercy of your baby's innateness.

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #92 on: February 03, 2016, 07:28:11 PM »
I've noticed that several folks have mentioned sleep deprivation as a con of having more kids. I only have 1 so far, and he is a baby still, so i recognize that i should probably withhold judgement, but I've found the sleep issue so far to be overblown (after the first few months, which were intense). I have a theory related to this that could be totally wrong, so I seek confirmation or disagreement. My theory is that people who have significant sleep issues with kids are not using sleep training/controlled-crying/CIO methods (on average; of course there will be exceptions). Those of you on this thread who mentioned sleep deprivation, did you use these methods? I've heard they don't work for everyone and I'm sure that it is harder with more than 1. And I know some people don't like sleep training for various reasons, but it strikes me as a little sad for sleep deprivation to be a reason to not have another kid when it can (possibly?) be avoided/mitigated. Not trying to start the mommy wars here, but I am genuinely curious about this (and I know i may come to regret my confidence in sleep training in a few months, or with the next kid, although I've seen it work great for many families).

Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this. That said, while we didn't do CIO, we definitely tried the techniques advocated in Bringing Up Bebe with our second and were already naturally using some of the techniques before encountering the book with our first. Our first started doing her nights at around 2 or 3 months, and our second (with whom we stuck pretty closely to the BUB suggestions) started doing them at 2 weeks. The thing is that for the folks who believe that baby sleep is predominantly genetic, rather than cultural, every story of parents who did anything to teach sleep hygiene will be somewhere on the scale of child abuse. Of course, for the folks who believe that baby sleep is predominantly cultural and not genetic, the idea of having babies who wake up 3 or more times a night until they're 1 or 2 will seem like lunacy.

For the record, you can "attachment parent" and still help a baby learn to self sooth and sleep effectively - they aren't mutually exclusive. We co-sleep (safely, with baby in her own bassinet right up next to our bed) and all it took was reaching a hand in and placing it on her chest to lull her back to sleep when she fussed. Now at 4 months, she overall is a great sleeper. Part of this is due to her personality (very laid back, happy baby, rarely cries except when physically uncomfortable or lonely) but I also think it is due to the fact that we never "rewarded" general fussiness and avoided overstimulating her when we knew she was safe/comfortable/fed/dry at night. The hand technique was great, it says "I'm here, I'm with you" but also "it is time for bed, we aren't getting up." It also avoids the stimulation caused by picking a baby up and moving them, which can further wake an otherwise drowsy baby.

I agree completely with you, and your description is quite close to what we did with both, even though we moved both kids to their own cribs after a couple of months.

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #93 on: February 03, 2016, 07:35:25 PM »
Thank you all for indulging my side-tracking this discussion to poor sleep/sleep training. Many of you have helped me appreciate the point that some kids do not respond to sleep training and that contributes to some parents’ poor sleep. The story of the twins is particularly fascinating. It also sounds like some of the poor sleep for some parents’ could possibly be reduced with use of sleep training, but that some parents do not want to use it, for various reasons.

I will take issue with a few of the responses suggesting that sleep ability is all genetic or that sleep training doesn’t work. The best research indicates that it does work, on average. See this nice review of the research (about half way down the page) http://scienceofmom.com/2012/03/09/infant-sleep-research-cosleeping-self-soothing-and-sleep-training/. And here is the link to an academic review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17068979. There is high quality evidence from large, well-controlled randomized trials that sleep training improves kids sleep (on average) and is not damaging to children.
That doesn’t mean it will work for all kids. I think it is safe to say that there are kids that are great sleepers no matter what is done, kids that are bad sleepers no matter what is done, but clearly there are many that respond to sleep training as evidenced by the above cited research. My kid was by no means a great sleeper (and still isn't a great sleeper), but I found that sleep training was rapidly effective in improving his sleeping (so far; I accept that things could go to hell any time now). It also helps that I'm a good sleeper and can quickly get back to sleep after he wakes me up. For the record, I hope to have one more kid, and I hope I am so luck as to have one that is responsive to sleep training.

It's a worthy side-track. And of course, you're completely correct that the research shows it does work. However, this is one of the (many) areas of this forum where dogma frequently trumps evidence (similar sacred cows include the Paleo diet, bicycling risks, and early forward-facing).

Kat57

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #94 on: February 03, 2016, 07:41:45 PM »
Regarding a third child....one of or friends had 4 boys. They thought that they were done, wven though they very much both wanted a little girl.  Finally, time is passing and if they are going to try ne more time for a little girl, it had to be soon. He balked, but she persisted with images of cute a cute little daughter.  Pregnancy happened.  Then about 4 months down the trail, she went to the doctor. Ultrasound proved what the doctor suspected, she was having TRIPLETS!  To his great credit, he didnt faint when she told him.  The babies were all born without incident and they named them James, Mark, and Joseph. 

So sometimes, no matter how you figure and plan, things just happen. 

justajane

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #95 on: February 03, 2016, 07:43:21 PM »
Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second.

Meh, you don't have to. It's been my observation from these kinds of threads, and I stand by everything I wrote. And my greater point, which you conveniently excised in your quotation (I can do that too!) is that if you believe baby sleep is primarily genetic, you're not going to buy the idea that you can teach kids good sleep habits. If you believe it's primarily cultural, you're not going to buy the idea that you're at the mercy of your baby's innateness.

I took issue with how you said "almost exclusively." Quoting just the part I disagreed with is indeed convenient for moving conversations forward, although not in the mustache-twirling, conspiratorial way you make it out to be. It wasn't intended to misrepresent you. I'm not out to start a war of words or wits here. I was just genuinely flummoxed by how you think that such a diverse group of people would "almost exclusively" adhere to one parenting style. It belies the diversity so often displayed on this forum. 

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #96 on: February 03, 2016, 07:49:26 PM »
Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second.

Meh, you don't have to. It's been my observation from these kinds of threads, and I stand by everything I wrote. And my greater point, which you conveniently excised in your quotation (I can do that too!) is that if you believe baby sleep is primarily genetic, you're not going to buy the idea that you can teach kids good sleep habits. If you believe it's primarily cultural, you're not going to buy the idea that you're at the mercy of your baby's innateness.

I took issue with how you said "almost exclusively." Quoting just the part I disagreed with is indeed convenient for moving conversations forward, although not in the mustache-twirling, conspiratorial way you make it out to be. It wasn't intended to misrepresent you. I'm not out to start a war of words or wits here. I was just genuinely flummoxed by how you think that such a diverse group of people would "almost exclusively" adhere to one parenting style. It belies the diversity so often displayed on this forum.

There's definitely diversity on the forum, but there's also a lot of group-think on certain issues, and baby sleep is one of them. In pretty much every thread on it, the consensus is almost always that you shouldn't expect to sleep during your first year or two, and that if you did, you were lucky and shouldn't take any credit for it. It's a very disempowering attitude that's mocked with equal fervor whenever the topic is centered on people complaining about student loans, credit card debt, foreclosures, or anything else that has to do with money, educational attainment, or other areas where forum members tend to be highly successful.

justajane

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2016, 08:04:44 PM »
Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second.

Meh, you don't have to. It's been my observation from these kinds of threads, and I stand by everything I wrote. And my greater point, which you conveniently excised in your quotation (I can do that too!) is that if you believe baby sleep is primarily genetic, you're not going to buy the idea that you can teach kids good sleep habits. If you believe it's primarily cultural, you're not going to buy the idea that you're at the mercy of your baby's innateness.

I took issue with how you said "almost exclusively." Quoting just the part I disagreed with is indeed convenient for moving conversations forward, although not in the mustache-twirling, conspiratorial way you make it out to be. It wasn't intended to misrepresent you. I'm not out to start a war of words or wits here. I was just genuinely flummoxed by how you think that such a diverse group of people would "almost exclusively" adhere to one parenting style. It belies the diversity so often displayed on this forum.

There's definitely diversity on the forum, but there's also a lot of group-think on certain issues, and baby sleep is one of them. In pretty much every thread on it, the consensus is almost always that you shouldn't expect to sleep during your first year or two, and that if you did, you were lucky and shouldn't take any credit for it. It's a very disempowering attitude that's mocked with equal fervor whenever the topic is centered on people complaining about student loans, credit card debt, foreclosures, or anything else that has to do with money, educational attainment, or other areas where forum members tend to be highly successful.

I understand your frustration and share it usually. In general, victimhood is not a healthy stance to take. But the main difference I would say between the whole issue of parenting -- and in this case infant sleep -- and the other financial issues you mention is that we are talking about a separate human being here with his or her own wants, needs, and personality. The other issues you mention like student loans and debt we have direct and mostly total control over. But children? Not so much. They subvert expectations. They are not our puppets. 

Ultimately, and this is my parenting philosophy in a nutshell, we shouldn't take credit for much. Conversely, we shouldn't take much blame for things either. I just think it leads to a healthier mindset overall as a parent. Taking credit for your kid sleeping better, walking sooner than other kids, reading before other kids, getting a higher SAT score, graduating summa cum laude, and on and on and on. I guess I just don't know when it stops. I'd rather extricate myself from it in infancy.

Note- I am only talking about myself here and my own feelings towards my kids and their "accomplishments." (Can sleeping through the night really be considered an accomplishment?) When as a parent do I stop taking credit? My solution was to never take credit and just accept whatever good -- and conversely bad -- things they do. They don't excel because I'm awesome. They don't fail because I'm terrible. Ultimately it's not about me at all. That's not to say I don't strive to do my best and provide the best setting in which they can thrive. But taking credit for things? I just think it's a slippery slope when it comes to parenthood. I don't think that makes people a victim in the same way that whining about your credit card debt does.

I hope that made sense.

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2016, 08:10:05 PM »
Allow me to add one more voice to the "Don't do it, the earth is overpopulated" chorus.  I would never advise someone to make major life decisions based on the opinion of random strangers on the internet, but if you do decide to deliberately have a third child, you will earn my scorn, for what that's worth.  Having three kids in any society that is consuming more than a sustainable level of resources (and most countries in the world today are) is completely socially irresponsible, IMO.  More on that here:  www.globalfootprintnetwork.org  Even if your particular country is "struggling to sustain replacement population", that's a problem easily solved by immigration today and for the long foreseeable future.  Not a reason to have a third kid.  The simple math is that everyone who makes that decision increases their family's resource consumption by 50% on a per generation basis, or your kids make do with less than you did.  Neither of those outcomes are ones I consider to be either responsible or loving, but those are my personal values.  YMMV.
I agree with this. People in US consume disproportionately more resources than a person in developing countries, an argument against having multiple kids. The replacement issue is easily solved by immigration from less well off countries. My husband except for momentarily didn't want a third kid, but we were both in agreement a) not to have a 3rd child, or b) if we did have a 3rd kid it would be adopted.

I take issue with the "easily solved" part. You are talking about massive re-distributions of populations into unknown countries where they will have to assimilate. And immigrant populations usually continue to produce higher numbers of children over their first few generations in the new country as well....so it's not like they will move to a new country and poof! they'll stop having more than the "allowable" 2 kids. Not to mention that immigrant groups typically are less educated in the first few generations, so they don't solve an immediate need for workers in all sectors. Finally, mass migrations often leave the originating areas in even more deplorable states, resulting in fewer resources like birth control and healthcare for the remaining population (so it's not like it solves the birth control issue there). It is true that the US consumes a disproportionate amount of resources, but this could be addressed in far more appropriate ways than telling people they suck for having more than 2 kids.How about we drastically reduce or eliminate meat and dairy production and reroute all those resources to growing sustainable grains and vegetables? Or put oil and gas caps on the population, not allowing people to consume more than a specific amount per year? What if we put a moratorium on any new homes over 1600sq feet? Either way, I think the idea of congratulating yourself for not having a 3rd kid as a selfless altruistic act is a touch naive, and judgmental to boot. If a smaller family works for you, then that is fabulous! But don't think it makes you a better person.

Unless you are an off the grid, vegan hippie who eschews fossil fuels (including any index investments that support these industries) and anything produced by big ag/big fashion/big pharma/logging/etc, it's tough to cast aspersions against someone with 3 kids without looking seriously hypocritical. If you are said hippe, my hat is off to you. You have certainly earned the right to look down on the rest of us.

Agreed, and gels with what I noted about the slippery slope perspective. If 3 is too many, 2 is too many, and 1 is also too many; there are plenty of reasons against having any children. MMM was rightfully derided for his hypocrisy some months ago in the comment section when he made that post about how dog ownership was optional (yet refused to apply the same logic to their decision to have a child to begin with).

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2016, 08:22:22 PM »
Folks around here are almost exclusively attachment-parenting types, so you're probably going to get lots of heat for this.

What a gross generalization. I don't believe this for a second.

Meh, you don't have to. It's been my observation from these kinds of threads, and I stand by everything I wrote. And my greater point, which you conveniently excised in your quotation (I can do that too!) is that if you believe baby sleep is primarily genetic, you're not going to buy the idea that you can teach kids good sleep habits. If you believe it's primarily cultural, you're not going to buy the idea that you're at the mercy of your baby's innateness.

I took issue with how you said "almost exclusively." Quoting just the part I disagreed with is indeed convenient for moving conversations forward, although not in the mustache-twirling, conspiratorial way you make it out to be. It wasn't intended to misrepresent you. I'm not out to start a war of words or wits here. I was just genuinely flummoxed by how you think that such a diverse group of people would "almost exclusively" adhere to one parenting style. It belies the diversity so often displayed on this forum.

There's definitely diversity on the forum, but there's also a lot of group-think on certain issues, and baby sleep is one of them. In pretty much every thread on it, the consensus is almost always that you shouldn't expect to sleep during your first year or two, and that if you did, you were lucky and shouldn't take any credit for it. It's a very disempowering attitude that's mocked with equal fervor whenever the topic is centered on people complaining about student loans, credit card debt, foreclosures, or anything else that has to do with money, educational attainment, or other areas where forum members tend to be highly successful.

I understand your frustration and share it usually. In general, victimhood is not a healthy stance to take. But the main difference I would say between the whole issue of parenting -- and in this case infant sleep -- and the other financial issues you mention is that we are talking about a separate human being here with his or her own wants, needs, and personality. The other issues you mention like student loans and debt we have direct and mostly total control over. But children? Not so much. They subvert expectations. They are not our puppets. 

Ultimately, and this is my parenting philosophy in a nutshell, we shouldn't take credit for much. Conversely, we shouldn't take much blame for things either. I just think it leads to a healthier mindset overall as a parent. Taking credit for your kid sleeping better, walking sooner than other kids, reading before other kids, getting a higher SAT score, graduating summa cum laude, and on and on and on. I guess I just don't know when it stops. I'd rather extricate myself from it in infancy.

Note- I am only talking about myself here and my own feelings towards my kids and their "accomplishments." (Can sleeping through the night really be considered an accomplishment?) When as a parent do I stop taking credit? My solution was to never take credit and just accept whatever good -- and conversely bad -- things they do. They don't excel because I'm awesome. They don't fail because I'm terrible. Ultimately it's not about me at all. That's not to say I don't strive to do my best and provide the best setting in which they can thrive. But taking credit for things? I just think it's a slippery slope when it comes to parenthood. I don't think that makes people a victim in the same way that whining about your credit card debt does.

I hope that made sense.

I agree with much of what you write here. Rather than taking credit, a better way to express what I mean would be recognition of your influence. There's lots of stuff outside of our control, but there are lots of things we can influence, and in my books, that's at the heart of parenting. I can't keep my kids from becoming obese 30 years from now, but I can strongly influence their food hygiene by preparing and providing healthy foods the vast majority of times we sit down to eat together. There are similar examples in pretty much every area of raising a human being. Folks here realize this and readily talk about it in many of these areas--there's an entire subforum dedicated to parenting and influencing (parenting, teaching, whatever you call it) our kids. I just see this (our influence on sleep hygiene) as one of the blind spots here, much as many here would see the lack of discussions about finances with children to be a blind spot in other families.

And regarding sleeping through the night being considered an accomplishment...there's a boat load of research discussing how poor sleep hygiene / patterns in infants is associated with maternal depression, higher stress levels, child abuse, divorce, and a number of other ugly things. I wouldn't call it an accomplishment in the sense of a top SAT score or anything else you mentioned, but a crucial part of a child's integration into his or her family.