Author Topic: Thoughts on having a third child??  (Read 27004 times)

justajane

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2016, 09:07:35 PM »
And regarding sleeping through the night being considered an accomplishment...there's a boat load of research discussing how poor sleep hygiene / patterns in infants is associated with maternal depression, higher stress levels, child abuse, divorce, and a number of other ugly things. I wouldn't call it an accomplishment in the sense of a top SAT score or anything else you mentioned, but a crucial part of a child's integration into his or her family.

And this likely gets to the heart of the issue here. Not having your kid sleep is a deeply, deeply traumatic thing. It's one of the worst things I've ever had to go through. I've struggled with depression most of my life, but the darkest depression of my life was when my first child was waking up 10-15 times a night. I wouldn't wish that kind of torture on someone I hated. Yet I had to go through it. If you label good sleep hygiene (strange term, but I know you're not making it up) something that I as a parent ultimately should have had control over or could change, then I am a big fat failure. Not once. Not twice. Three damned times. If I could have found a way to change it, I would have. I think that's the niggling problem with it all; nobody wants to be called a failure and it's implicit in your argument (mind you, I don't think I am actually a failure, but as you have said multiple times, "the research says").

From the vantage point of the sufferers, talk about adding insult to injury! Parents with kids "with good sleep hygiene" get to sleep and they get to imply that if I tried harder my kid would too? I think we have to leave the possibility open (despite what "the research says") that maybe they have experienced something profound and maybe have come out of it with some insight. That maybe it's not just an attempt to whitewash reality and a big huge blind spot on their parts. Maybe they learned something early on about control and how little we actually have.     

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2016, 10:34:32 PM »
Three is way crazier than two.  Three makes one feel like none.  Three means five airplane tickets instead of four.  Three means no to a lot of normal hotel rooms (sorry, only 4 to a room).  Three means 2-3 more years in diapers.  Three means the grandparents won't watch all of the grandchildren at the same time anymore.  Three means a middle child who doesn't get to be the baby sister or the big sister.  Three means another college education.  Three means zone defense.  Three is loud.  Three is hard.

Three is way more than two when it's fun.  Three makes adding in a cousin for four feel like nothing.  Three means 50% more funny stories at the dinner table.  Three means the one in the middle gets to be both a little sister and a big sister.  Three means the dog piles are bigger and more fun.  Three gets a little easier as they get older.

If you want your kids to be the primary thing in your life, have three.  If you want your child to be an accessory with you as you live your life, have one.  If you want something in the middle, have two. 

EarthshipSandra

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2016, 10:58:46 PM »
Tell me what I need to consider? We are debating if we should have a third, I need to consider all financial implications/effects that I may have looked over.

The planet doesn't need more humans. If you have 2 what's driving the need to have another?

I used to believe this argument, but after looking into it a bit more, my opinion changed.

The overpopulation argument makes sense if populations and resources are relatively evenly dispersed but they aren't. There are areas that have very low birthrates, and governments are actually begging their populace to have children to ensure there are sufficient workers in future generations to keep the country afloat. Then there are countries seeing population booms, usually in emerging economies like India. If you live in an industrialized nation, the birth rate usually hovers around 2, and in some countries it's even lower than replacement level. This can make up for the larger more populated areas. The counterargument is that the world isn't overpopulated persay, it's just that there are overpopulated pockets for the resources available in a given area, and we aren't willing to make the necessary infrastructure and cultural changes necessary to ensure that everyone is cared for in a sustainable fashion. The idea that if wealthy people just forgo kids everything will be better is nonsense - all that happens is that we re-route even MORE resources to those lucky few kids we do have. Just take a look at the number of 1 and 2 kid families living in huge houses to see this in action. 

Now, some could say that we should import individuals from overpopulated areas into areas where the birthrate is lower to try to "even out" the number of people without encouraging people to have more kids. But obviously that is a tough sell, for both the migrant group and the established citizenry of a specific area. There are also ethical implications involved with personal autonomy -is it fair to tell individuals it's their responsibility to not have kids just because there are segments of the population who are having more? Who knows.

But overall the earth is supporting too many people. Estimates are that we're consuming as though we had seven planets. I do think the world could use fewer people (most definitely!) but I disagree that we should shame each other into this (not saying anybody here is shaming anybody, BTW but I hear it in my circles).  Mostly what we need is better education for girls in 3rd world countries. With education comes resilience, higher education and fewer births. As developed nations we need to stop using more than our share of resources.  In terms of having one more child: I'm a middle child of three and I have three children myself. Mine are a year apart and we had just decided no more than two when the third child made herself known. My third child is hugely interested in science and technology and wants to be a resource engineer (environmental) or bio engineer. She deeply cares about health, the environment and other people. I suppose the odds were that I would have had a consumer-oriented, thoughtless child as well. And, no matter her outlook, she is still using up the earth's resources strictly from being on it.  From an economic point of few having three children is more expensive even if you practice frugality -- 2 for 1 doesn't fit three kids, hotel rooms are fine when they are toddlers (we made our son decide if he was going to share a bed with one of his sisters  and rotate the mat on the floor, or abandon the bed entirely, which he did when he was about 8). We haven't stayed in hotels in the last four years, but I'm guessing it would be pretty hard to slink the third teenager by the front desk (we'd try of course, and smile doing it!)  For us, it became a matter of focusing our resources. We live frugally and the kids don't always have what their friends have. We are fairly highly-educated parents who live a bit of an alternate lifestyle off the hamster wheel which causes some raised eyebrows in our community. But our kids have hiked in some beautiful wilderness all over North America - with their parents!, they've met some awesome people, they've helped build a sustainable house which they now live in, they've been encouraged to follow their passions. They know we'll help them to do that financially (to a certain extent) but they also know they'll have to make some of their own decisions and earn their own way. They are in Grade 10, 11 and 12 so the next phase is upon us! They are dear, dear human beings...but after the third appeared husband and I drew straws to make sure we didn't have a #4. :)

Meowmalade

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2016, 11:49:06 PM »
We're not planning on having any kids, but when my sister got pregnant, my friend who is the father of three asked me to tell her that two is enough, three is too many and makes life just crazy.  Two is in her plans anyway; she said that if the second is twins it would be her worst nightmare!

justajane

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2016, 05:34:29 AM »
hotel rooms are fine when they are toddlers (we made our son decide if he was going to share a bed with one of his sisters  and rotate the mat on the floor, or abandon the bed entirely, which he did when he was about 8). We haven't stayed in hotels in the last four years, but I'm guessing it would be pretty hard to slink the third teenager by the front desk (we'd try of course, and smile doing it!) 

The advent of AirBNB and VRBO has been great for families of five or larger. Oftentimes you can get an entire apartment or even a house for the same price that you would pay for one hotel room. Next time you need to travel, I would try that instead.

GuitarStv

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2016, 06:04:41 AM »
I will take issue with a few of the responses suggesting that sleep ability is all genetic


That doesn’t mean it will work for all kids. I think it is safe to say that there are kids that are great sleepers no matter what is done, kids that are bad sleepers no matter what is done


As you just mentioned, how a kid sleeps is not chosen by the method you use with the kid . . . but by the individual kid him or her self.  People don't have 'average' kids, so 'average' results from testing don't really have value.  We have individual kids, and they all behave a bit differently from one another.  This makes blanket statements of advice like what to do with a child who doesn't sleep well (when you've never experienced a bad sleeper) not only wrong, but quite aggravating.

Miss Prim

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2016, 06:07:28 AM »
I came from a family of 3, myself being the oldest.  My middle brother felt like he was short-changed because the attention outside of the family seemed to be on me and my youngest brother.  I was always happy with 2 brothers because at one time or another I would be close to one or the other.  As an adult, my middle brother and I are the closest and hang out a lot together. 

I had a lot of trouble with my 2nd pregnancy and was off work from the 3rd month.  Even so, I was willing to have 3, but my husband only wanted 2.  I did not have my tubes tied after number 2 and told my husband that if he did not want 3, he would have to have a vasectomy.  Well, he was not keen on that, but when I had a pregnancy scare (late period from someone who was like clockwork), he RAN to the Doctor and had it done as fast as he could! 

I am happy with 2 kids.  They are very close to each other and us.  Personally, I am glad I only had 2.

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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2016, 07:56:06 AM »
Regarding a third child....one of or friends had 4 boys. They thought that they were done, wven though they very much both wanted a little girl.  Finally, time is passing and if they are going to try ne more time for a little girl, it had to be soon. He balked, but she persisted with images of cute a cute little daughter.  Pregnancy happened.  Then about 4 months down the trail, she went to the doctor. Ultrasound proved what the doctor suspected, she was having TRIPLETS!  To his great credit, he didnt faint when she told him.  The babies were all born without incident and they named them James, Mark, and Joseph. 

So sometimes, no matter how you figure and plan, things just happen.
So they went from four boys to seven?  That's AWESOME!

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2016, 08:05:54 AM »
GuitarStv, stating that "how a kid sleeps is not chosen by the method you use with the kid" is a very poor understanding of my point (I apologize if I'm not making it well). I believe, and the research supports, that a great many kids are very much responsive to the method you use. But that some are not. That is very different than stating that the method doesn't matter. We know that blood control medication works for most people, but not for all. Doesn't mean it doesn't work. Doesn't mean that those who it doesn't work for are doing anything wrong. Doesn't mean people should not take blood pressure medication if they have high blood pressure.

Also, how do you know that I (or others who now have good sleepers) did not at one time have "bad sleepers"? You don't know, and, in fact, I would characterize my child as a fairly poor sleeper prior to sleep training. Perhaps the fact that he responded to sleep training means that he was in fact a "good sleeper" all along, but if I had never tried sleep training he would be labeled a bad sleeper. The research shows that (some) bad sleepers can become good sleepers with certain techniques. 

I think blanket advice to try sleep training (if poor sleep is making your life miserable) is very reasonable. Doesn't mean it is expected to work for everyone, but you don't know until you try.

StarBright

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2016, 08:29:54 AM »

From the vantage point of the sufferers, talk about adding insult to injury! Parents with kids "with good sleep hygiene" get to sleep and they get to imply that if I tried harder my kid would too? I think we have to leave the possibility open (despite what "the research says") that maybe they have experienced something profound and maybe have come out of it with some insight. That maybe it's not just an attempt to whitewash reality and a big huge blind spot on their parts. Maybe they learned something early on about control and how little we actually have.   

Thanks justajane - I think you've nailed it exactly with the above. I can't tell you how many times people would question what I was doing: Night time routine - check, Ferber - check, Ferber for more than just a couple of nights - check (we did almost a week), put baby down while still awake- check, sugar? - of course no sugar, etc and on and on. And then they would look perplexed and basically say "well you must be doing something wrong, it worked fine for me." I still start to feel guilty every time I think about it. Anyways - this thread took quite the tangent , but an interesting one :)

Daleth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2016, 08:56:39 AM »
Three in car seats is a grand ol pain in the ass.  We managed it in our Toyota corolla only by buying expensive diono radians.  Even so we only lasted a year before buying a minivan.

How on earth did you fit the Dionos in a Corolla?! We ordered a Diono and a Clek Fllo to see which one fit best in our 2007 Outback. Answer: neither, but the Clek fit the least badly, so now we have two of them (twins). I want to know what juju you used to stuff those things into a Corolla!!!


Daleth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2016, 09:07:12 AM »
I tend to strongly disagree with the idea of having more than two.  At that point, adopt if you want to take care of another one!!!   Overpopulation bothers me.  I grew up in Alabama though, where people seem to have tons of kids out of rural tradition (I suppose, I really don't know why they feel the urge to pop out so many).

I have never been privy to a logical reason for wanting more than two.  It's always an emotional "We wanted another one" or "We were hoping for a girl/boy since we already have ___ of the opposite sex".
Well then ADOPT, people.  Adopt.

But to each their own. =)

Adoption is not the simple solution you imagine. Do you know how much it costs to adopt? Unless you adopt out of foster care, which can be logistically and emotionally very difficult (fostering a kid, bonding with them, then having them sent back to their original negligent or abusive parents; or adopting a child who had a horrific first few years and lasting emotional problems as a result), adoption costs tens of thousands of bucks.

And stupid things can disqualify you, either during the home study (the agency might decide you're not rich enough or healthy enough) or when the biological mother chooses where her child goes (she might decide you're not Baptist enough, you're gay or a single parent and she doesn't want that, etc.).

And finally, there are way more people interested in adopting than there are children available for adoption. The last stats I saw (admittedly 2010) showed that in the entire USA, there were only 102,000 foster kids available for adoption--and kids in foster care are preferentially adopted to their relatives, meaning that if some aunt or second cousin wants the kid, you won't get him or her. And then of course, only maybe 20k women a year in the US decide to place their babies for adoption, which is a drop in the bucket when you consider that there are more than 7 million infertile people in the US and many more people who are fertile but want to adopt.

charis

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2016, 09:19:09 AM »
Two!  Two! 

Can you tell I was up at 1AM trying to get my 2.5 year old (!) second child to go back to sleep? 

For the love of everything, two!

tweezers

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2016, 09:51:39 AM »

From the vantage point of the sufferers, talk about adding insult to injury! Parents with kids "with good sleep hygiene" get to sleep and they get to imply that if I tried harder my kid would too? I think we have to leave the possibility open (despite what "the research says") that maybe they have experienced something profound and maybe have come out of it with some insight. That maybe it's not just an attempt to whitewash reality and a big huge blind spot on their parts. Maybe they learned something early on about control and how little we actually have.   

Thanks justajane - I think you've nailed it exactly with the above. I can't tell you how many times people would question what I was doing: Night time routine - check, Ferber - check, Ferber for more than just a couple of nights - check (we did almost a week), put baby down while still awake- check, sugar? - of course no sugar, etc and on and on. And then they would look perplexed and basically say "well you must be doing something wrong, it worked fine for me." I still start to feel guilty every time I think about it. Anyways - this thread took quite the tangent , but an interesting one :)

Agreed.  I refrained from commenting earlier in the thread because the heart of the argument was "you're doing it wrong", which is infuriating and obnoxious.  My own little anecdote: I have two kids.  My oldest needed swaddling, rocking, loud white noise, correct planetary alignment, and blessings from the gods for at least an hour to get to sleep.  I read all the books and finally accepted that I was a failure and/or basically broke her, and that her inability to self-soothe and fall asleep unaided was my fault.  My son was born and he just...slept when he was tired.  All. on. his. own.  Kids are who they are, and and to take credit (or blame) assumes a lot more power than you actually have.  Before our son was born my husband helped alleviate my guilt over failing on the sleep front by reminding me that authors of parenting books are out to make money.  Everyone wants a "no-cry sleep solution"!

As for going from two to three: I wanted three (and even four), but my husband was firm on two (we have two).  For a long time I felt like someone was missing from our family, but that feeling has diminished with time.  I'm very thankful for this because there was definitely a period of grief over our missing child, which would have been challenging to endure over the long run.  Good luck in your decision.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2016, 10:05:13 AM »
And regarding sleeping through the night being considered an accomplishment...there's a boat load of research discussing how poor sleep hygiene / patterns in infants is associated with maternal depression, higher stress levels, child abuse, divorce, and a number of other ugly things. I wouldn't call it an accomplishment in the sense of a top SAT score or anything else you mentioned, but a crucial part of a child's integration into his or her family.

And this likely gets to the heart of the issue here. Not having your kid sleep is a deeply, deeply traumatic thing. It's one of the worst things I've ever had to go through. I've struggled with depression most of my life, but the darkest depression of my life was when my first child was waking up 10-15 times a night. I wouldn't wish that kind of torture on someone I hated. Yet I had to go through it. If you label good sleep hygiene (strange term, but I know you're not making it up) something that I as a parent ultimately should have had control over or could change, then I am a big fat failure. Not once. Not twice. Three damned times. If I could have found a way to change it, I would have. I think that's the niggling problem with it all; nobody wants to be called a failure and it's implicit in your argument (mind you, I don't think I am actually a failure, but as you have said multiple times, "the research says").

From the vantage point of the sufferers, talk about adding insult to injury! Parents with kids "with good sleep hygiene" get to sleep and they get to imply that if I tried harder my kid would too? I think we have to leave the possibility open (despite what "the research says") that maybe they have experienced something profound and maybe have come out of it with some insight. That maybe it's not just an attempt to whitewash reality and a big huge blind spot on their parts. Maybe they learned something early on about control and how little we actually have.   

Yes – this is like the whole “everyone can breastfeed if they try hard enough" argument – it just adds insult to injury. The fact is, if a little luck wasn't involved and nursing was all about effort, I would be like a dairy farm feeding all the hungry babies of the world! Alas, it certainly didn't turn out that way. I lucked out though with the sleep - easy going, good sleeper, and we were able to springboard off this by not overstimulating her at night and sabotaging a good thing.

I've started to view parenting like driving a car:

The amount of time and dedication you put into something, like nursing or sleep care, is like the gasoline you put in a tank. The more you put in, and the better quality, the farther your car will go.
But luck/genetics/fate/other uncontrollable circumstance is like the ignition – you need a little spark to get the whole thing rolling. It doesn’t matter if you have a full tank of premium gas, if you don’t have the ignition, you aren’t going anywhere. It has nothing to do with what’s in your tank or how badly you want that car to start moving.

A bit of luck + time and dedication + love = parenting success!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 10:09:28 AM by little_brown_dog »

tobitonic

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2016, 07:34:03 PM »
And regarding sleeping through the night being considered an accomplishment...there's a boat load of research discussing how poor sleep hygiene / patterns in infants is associated with maternal depression, higher stress levels, child abuse, divorce, and a number of other ugly things. I wouldn't call it an accomplishment in the sense of a top SAT score or anything else you mentioned, but a crucial part of a child's integration into his or her family.
If you label good sleep hygiene (strange term, but I know you're not making it up) something that I as a parent ultimately should have had control over or could change, then I am a big fat failure.

I label good sleep hygiene as something a parent can influence, much like a great many parts of parenting. Not something you or any other parent "should have had control over." I don't see you as a failure, but I do feel you're arguing against things I'm not saying.

Quote
I think we have to leave the possibility open (despite what "the research says") that maybe they have experienced something profound and maybe have come out of it with some insight.

This argument is one we could use for every part of life, including all of those that go against the very grain of this site's founder and community. I agree with it, but unless we're using it consistently, it's just hypocrisy. That means we don't get to judge parents for anything, including paying for their kids' college educations, paying for music lessons and sports leagues, paying to live in larger houses with long commutes in the suburbs, paying for newer and safer cars, paying for private schools, paying to live in the wealthy areas that support good public schools, paying for organic food...basically anything anyone ever does can be justified by the assumption that their actions led to insight.

Larabeth

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #116 on: February 05, 2016, 04:17:09 AM »
I tend to strongly disagree with the idea of having more than two.  At that point, adopt if you want to take care of another one!!!   Overpopulation bothers me.  I grew up in Alabama though, where people seem to have tons of kids out of rural tradition (I suppose, I really don't know why they feel the urge to pop out so many).

I have never been privy to a logical reason for wanting more than two.  It's always an emotional "We wanted another one" or "We were hoping for a girl/boy since we already have ___ of the opposite sex".
Well then ADOPT, people.  Adopt.

But to each their own. =)

Adoption is not the simple solution you imagine. Do you know how much it costs to adopt? Unless you adopt out of foster care, which can be logistically and emotionally very difficult (fostering a kid, bonding with them, then having them sent back to their original negligent or abusive parents; or adopting a child who had a horrific first few years and lasting emotional problems as a result), adoption costs tens of thousands of bucks.

And stupid things can disqualify you, either during the home study (the agency might decide you're not rich enough or healthy enough) or when the biological mother chooses where her child goes (she might decide you're not Baptist enough, you're gay or a single parent and she doesn't want that, etc.).

And finally, there are way more people interested in adopting than there are children available for adoption. The last stats I saw (admittedly 2010) showed that in the entire USA, there were only 102,000 foster kids available for adoption--and kids in foster care are preferentially adopted to their relatives, meaning that if some aunt or second cousin wants the kid, you won't get him or her. And then of course, only maybe 20k women a year in the US decide to place their babies for adoption, which is a drop in the bucket when you consider that there are more than 7 million infertile people in the US and many more people who are fertile but want to adopt.

I never suggested adoption was simple, I meant from the standpoint of ecological impact, adoption makes sense.  But stating it costs "tens of thousands of dollars to adopt" is not always accurate.  And if someone wants to adopt, there are many avenues and the process varies greatly for each system. I have friends that are in the process now through the US foster system: it isn't easy, but it isn't impossible either... and aren't we supposed to be working toward "Badassity" anyway?

Also, I don't know how those numbers can be right when there are so many kids that grow up and age out of the system.  Not to mention, international adoptions are always an option.

My fiancee and I are preparing to adopt in a few years, not currently, but once we become eligible (if you're getting married, you have to be married 3 years in AL), so I have been doing research and talking to families we know that are in the process/have adopted.

For anyone who might read this reply and want more info in the US about adoption, here's a link:
http://www.adoptuskids.org/for-families/how-to-adopt/common-myths-about-adoption

EarthshipSandra

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2016, 02:13:44 PM »
hotel rooms are fine when they are toddlers (we made our son decide if he was going to share a bed with one of his sisters  and rotate the mat on the floor, or abandon the bed entirely, which he did when he was about 8). We haven't stayed in hotels in the last four years, but I'm guessing it would be pretty hard to slink the third teenager by the front desk (we'd try of course, and smile doing it!) 

The advent of AirBNB and VRBO has been great for families of five or larger. Oftentimes you can get an entire apartment or even a house for the same price that you would pay for one hotel room. Next time you need to travel, I would try that instead.



Yes, true. The last time we travelled was four years ago and we used booking.com to find low rates in Florida...housing crisis and all that...$50 a night for a three bedroom condo in a highly deserted and unfinished complex.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 02:15:54 PM by EarthshipSandra »

Cassie

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2016, 02:21:51 PM »
WE had 3 kids and never had a problem with renting just 1 hotel room. We would pay for a roll away bed to be put in the room for the 3rd kid.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2016, 09:46:15 PM »
WE had 3 kids and never had a problem with renting just 1 hotel room. We would pay for a roll away bed to be put in the room for the 3rd kid.
We've done that with more than 3 kids. :)

SomedayStache

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Re: Thoughts on having a third child??
« Reply #120 on: February 08, 2016, 06:43:58 PM »
First off way to win the asshole of the year previous poster.

Three in car seats is a grand ol pain in the ass.  We managed it in our Toyota corolla only by buying expensive diono radians.  Even so we only lasted a year before buying a minivan.

How on earth did you fit the Dionos in a Corolla?! We ordered a Diono and a Clek Fllo to see which one fit best in our 2007 Outback. Answer: neither, but the Clek fit the least badly, so now we have two of them (twins). I want to know what juju you used to stuff those things into a Corolla!!!

See post #785 in the linked thread for the amazing 3-across in a Toyota Corolla.
http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?p=2554888#post2554888