Author Topic: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?  (Read 1952 times)

TexTexTex

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The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« on: December 16, 2023, 11:01:35 AM »
So I'm here to get some people to weigh in on a particular question bouncing around in my head... Do I really want to take on a mortgage and become a slave to the bank?

Before I elaborate, I thought I would put together a scenario (not mine) to paint a picture for the discussion points that follow:

Young adult, lets call him Alex,  has saved $100,000 and decides they want to purchase a home. The home is valued at $350,000 and Alex decides to put down $70,000 (20%) to avoid PMI. Closing costs amount to $10,500. Rate is 7%

So at the time of purchase Alex's balance sheet is below:

Assets:
$19,500 Cash
$350,000 Home

Liabilities:
$280,000

NW @ time of purchase = $89,500

Now here's where I scratch my head.

Alex is sitting there with a $280,000 30-year mortgage that will cost them a total of $611,116 (this amount is composed of $280,000 in principal combined with the $261,116.20 interest and $70,000 down payment.). The mortgage increases the cost of the home dramatically... Keep in mind we haven't even calculated the other costs around homeownership (maintenance, repairs, capital expenditures, etc.)

Now I know somebody is going to claim that a different rate would change things dramatically and they would be correct, the change is dramatic. However neither of the scenarios look "great". See below:

Same purchase at 2.5% = Total home cost = $468,282($280,000 principal + $70,000 down payment + $118,281 interest)
Same purchase at 7% = Total home cost = $740,625($280,000 principal + $70,000 down payment + $390,624 interest)

So Alex is in this scenario with $19,500 in cash left in hand, which is arguably enough to possibly satisfy his Emergency Fund. The next step is for him to save his ass off so that he can either pay off his mortgage OR invest into the market.

The compounding effect is less impactful until your investment base is larger, especially once it hits six-digit figures. So depending on Alex's income it could take him anywhere between 1-5 years to save another $100K to start recognizing decent interest dollars on these invested savings, meanwhile the mortgage is still squeezing you with that hefty interest burden.

Now I recognize that housing prices are not static, they obviously fluctuate with the market. That said, you're essentially banking on your property increasing in value 5-7% annually to call it a "decent" investment.

In summary I'm having a hard time accepting the claim that purchasing a home is a great investment. It seems more like a luxury to me, a costly one at that.

I'll admit that raising a family in a secure/comfortable home is subjectively "priceless" to some, but the numbers are hard to argue with. Is there anyway to avoid the large burden of a mortgage (especially) in this market? I've read numerous articles on the age-old rent/buy debate, so i've become relatively familiar with that equation.

Other options to consider:
1. Save up $350,000 and make a cash-purchase for the home. (no mortgage interest but also no investments outside of the home to make a return)
2. Save up the $350,000, keep it in index funds and pull out a mortgage at the terms in the original example and let investments gains offset your mortgage interest. Hopefully your invested returns would yield a greater return. Refinance the mortgage later to increase the delta.
3. Assume the original example scenario and pour all of your cash into the mortgage and accelerate the pay-off. For some reason my brain doesn't like this option as then you're solely relying on your home to increase in value to accomplish a return while you replenish your savings/investments.

Again anyway you slice it, the home really doesn't seem like a good investment, more like a luxury that provides banks the opportunity to sell a product (mortgage) that is a CASH COW for them.

Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 11:07:44 AM by HTX91 »

VanillaGorilla

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2023, 12:56:23 PM »
I'll admit that I didn't read the entirety of your post in extreme detail, but I suspect what you're missing is imputed rent. If you don't buy a house, you still have to live somewhere. So you have to consider the cost of renting an equivalent home.

Quote
Same purchase at 2.5% = Total home cost = $468,282($280,000 principal + $70,000 down payment + $118,281 interest)
Same purchase at 7% = Total home cost = $740,625($280,000 principal + $70,000 down payment + $390,624 interest)

Note that these are nominal dollars - not inflation adjusted. Say that Alex decides to rent for those 30 years. Say that his rent today is $2500 per month and increases by 3% every year for 30 years. That's roughly $1.4M to rent for 30 years. Suddenly paying $750k for a house looks pretty attractive, particularly since he owns that house after 30 years, whereas if he were renting he'd own nothing.

Quote
That said, you're essentially banking on your property increasing in value 5-7% annually to call it a "decent" investment.
That's not really accurate either. A mortgage is at a fixed rate, so you have to consider inflation. A 7% nominal rate at 3% inflation is a 4% real rate. Then consider that houses historically appreciate a bit faster than inflation (in some areas, a lot more!), so your 4% real rate might be a 2% real rate. So yes, you're paying some money but again - measure it against imputed rent. At lower rates it can quickly become a 0% real rate over a sufficiently long timeline.

Your attitude of slave to the bank is pretty telling. US mortgage policy is extremely generous to the homeowner. Other countries don't have fixed rate 30 year loans, period. If you're a smart/lucky home buyer you're not so much a slave to the bank as a beneficiary of US monetary policy.

There are plenty of ways to get screwed in the housing market - buying in a flood plain, buying a house you can't afford, buying in a declining neighborhood, buying too much house and struggling to cash flow your entire life, buying a house you can't stay in for more than a few years before selling, buying a house in Florida (that's a joke). The list goes on, homeownership is by no means a slam dunk path to riches.

But in a lot of ways public policy is aimed at benefitting homeowners. And smart leverage can be very powerful. Run your own numbers and draw your own conclusions. Anybody who says things like "renting is throwing money away" or "homeownership is being a slave to a bank" doesn't have a sufficiently nuanced perspective.

Everything boils down to the details - how much the house costs, how much the loan costs, how much an equivalent rental costs, what your timeline is, what your cashflow is, etc. There's just no simple, one-size-fits-all answer.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 08:56:14 PM by VanillaGorilla »

nereo

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2023, 01:17:41 PM »
Agree with most of what VanillaGorilla wrote.

I’ll add: I’m always weary when someone has the overwhelming majority of their NW tied up into their home. In the case of “Alex” It is north of 80% when closing costs are factored in. That’s one reason to question whether he should be buying a home at this point at all / however sometimes the rent-vs-buy tip do heavily towards buy it still makes sense.

Now, if we accept that Alex has bought this house he would only be making his situation more precarious by overpaying the mortgage. $17k can evaporate very, very quickly when you are a homeowner

Freedomin5

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2023, 01:29:51 PM »
I think it really depends on the situation. Where we currently live, my company pays around $5000/month to house us in a 3-bedroom apartment. This same apartment sells for $5M. It makes absolutely no sense to buy.

In the college town we are repatriating to, it costs $3000-$3500/month to rent a 3-bedroom townhome, and around $550-$600k to buy the same townhome, with a 5% mortgage + HOA fee of around $3000/month. In that case, it’s kind of a wash; we to buy because of the non-financial benefits.

Ten+ years ago when we bought our first condo, rent was $1200/month. Mortgage + HOA was $1000/month. Interest rate was 2.25%. The value of the condo was increasing at 15-20% per year. It made sense to buy since it was so cheap to borrow money.

If interest is at 7%, I’d run the numbers, but they might not work out in my favor.

In Alex’s case, I’d probably save up the $100k in investments first, then use the second $100k as a downpayment for a home. In our current environment, most people are predicting that house prices continue to fall or at least remain stable for the next year or two. Then again, that also depends on the city in which Alex lives.

And yes, here in Canada we are envious of the American homeownership policies. How I wish my mortgage interest was tax deductible! And the opportunity to lock in a rate for 30 years? Drool!

lucenzo11

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2023, 08:58:30 PM »
I think what you are missing is that you are viewing buying a home with a mortgage (with the intent to live in it) only through the lens of an investment. JLCollinsNH has a great article about all of this. https://jlcollinsnh.com/2023/03/02/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/

The actual numbers of owning a home don't usually come out ahead of renting because your rent is the maximum you'll pay a month while your mortgage is the minimum you'll pay each month. There are lots of hidden costs in owning a home. But, that doesn't mean that everyone who has a mortgage is an idiot. It just means that they value ownership and are willing to pay more for it. So if you don't see the value in owning a home, then of course a mortgage isn't going to be worth it.

Instead, you need to think about it as a lifestyle decision. Think about that in tandem with the financial.

For me personally, I rented for 10 years after college because I didn't see value in owning a home. It saw it as expensive and I didn't have much money so renting made the most sense. I shared apartments to keep costs down and then once I got married and my wife and I felt like we wanted the lifestyle of a SFH, we went and bought one. But we weren't ever going to buy a house just to buy a house. We waited until it felt like the right decision and we could handle it finanically.

VanillaGorilla

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2023, 09:28:51 PM »
If we're going to include the (in)famous JL Collins post (with which I strenuously disagree) it's only fair to include the ERN rebuttal: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2018/03/21/best-investment-ever-homeownership/

My experience over the last ten years was much more similar to ERN than JLCollins. Glad I bought before reading JL Collins (whose investing philosophy, in all fairness, directly drives my non-real estate investing behavior). Lesson learned: don't apply 1980 Chicago real estate rules to CA property in the 2010s.

Morning Glory

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2023, 09:29:38 PM »
I think what you are missing is that you are viewing buying a home with a mortgage (with the intent to live in it) only through the lens of an investment. JLCollinsNH has a great article about all of this. https://jlcollinsnh.com/2023/03/02/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/

The actual numbers of owning a home don't usually come out ahead of renting because your rent is the maximum you'll pay a month while your mortgage is the minimum you'll pay each month. There are lots of hidden costs in owning a home. But, that doesn't mean that everyone who has a mortgage is an idiot. It just means that they value ownership and are willing to pay more for it. So if you don't see the value in owning a home, then of course a mortgage isn't going to be worth it.

Instead, you need to think about it as a lifestyle decision. Think about that in tandem with the financial.

For me personally, I rented for 10 years after college because I didn't see value in owning a home. It saw it as expensive and I didn't have much money so renting made the most sense. I shared apartments to keep costs down and then once I got married and my wife and I felt like we wanted the lifestyle of a SFH, we went and bought one. But we weren't ever going to buy a house just to buy a house. We waited until it felt like the right decision and we could handle it finanically.

Regional differences: I bought my first house when I was still in college by taking my coffee can of waitressing tips to the bank and adding it to my CD until I had 8k for a down payment. I was not old enough to buy beer but i could qualify for a mortgage.
 The total purchase price was 45k and my monthly mortgage was under $300, which I calculated to be less than what my classmates were paying for half a dormroom.  I was with dh then although not yet married and he helped with the utilities.  It was 100+ years old and had some issues but we had 2 bedrooms and a garage and a yard with a veg garden.  No overpriced college meal plan for me.

 I don't remember what renting independently would have cost but it was more expensive. Moved to a more expensive area for work but we sold the house for more than we paid.

The thing with rent is it can go up 10% or more next year and your mortgage stays the same the whole time (in the US with no rent control anyway), so calling rent the maximum you'll pay is only true in the first year.

Telecaster

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2023, 09:42:13 PM »
The compounding effect is less impactful until your investment base is larger, especially once it hits six-digit figures. So depending on Alex's income it could take him anywhere between 1-5 years to save another $100K to start recognizing decent interest dollars on these invested savings, meanwhile the mortgage is still squeezing you with that hefty interest burden.

Now I recognize that housing prices are not static, they obviously fluctuate with the market. That said, you're essentially banking on your property increasing in value 5-7% annually to call it a "decent" investment.


In addition to everything @VanillaGorilla said, remember that the house is leveraged.   Let's say the $350,000 house increases in value by a modest 3% ($10,500).  That's a nifty 15% return on the $70,000 down payment.

You're on the right track in that housing is an expense, and like all expenses it is good to find ways to minimize it.   Just make sure you are comparing apples to apples.


GilesMM

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2023, 09:52:05 PM »
A house is not a financial investment. It is a place to live. An expense.

nereo

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2023, 05:49:17 AM »
A house is not a financial investment. It is a place to live. An expense.

Until you sell it. If your life plan involves selling your home (or even passing via inheritance to someone else) then it’s important to examine it as an investment as well as and place to live. I large, expensive to discharge item with ongoing expenses, but an investment none the less.

A huge number of parents plan on downsizing as part of their retirement once the kids launch, and recouping that six-figure chunk of their net worth is key.




The actual numbers of owning a home don't usually come out ahead of renting because your rent is the maximum you'll pay a month while your mortgage is the minimum you'll pay each month. There are lots of hidden costs in owning a home. But, that doesn't mean that everyone who has a mortgage is an idiot. It just means that they value ownership and are willing to pay more for it. So if you don't see the value in owning a home, then of course a mortgage isn't going to be worth it.


Strongly disagree that ownership usually doesn’t come out ahead of renting. It’s extremely location specific but it’s quite easy to find scenarios where owning is cheaper than equivalent rental options. It’s typically pushed in that direction by a combination of market forces (landlords purchase units to turn profits) and favorable governmental policies.
A descent calculator to make a first pass on which is cheaper in your area is here:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-calculator.html

GilesMM

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2023, 06:23:26 AM »
A house is not a financial investment. It is a place to live. An expense.

Until you sell it. If your life plan involves selling your home (or even passing via inheritance to someone else) then it’s important to examine it as an investment as well as and place to live. I large, expensive to discharge item with ongoing expenses, but an investment none the less.

A huge number of parents plan on downsizing as part of their retirement once the kids launch, and recouping that six-figure chunk of their net worth is key.


Hard to know if downsizing to a cheaper place was ever much of a thing, but appears to be a "myth" recently:
https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/home_garden/many-empty-nesters-looking-for-bigger-homes-not-downsizing/article_2c7c86d8-cccd-11ed-969d-5f4af2726ec3.html

In any case, it seems foolish to consider your primary home an "investment" in which you seek a competitive return as opposed to an optimum place to live.  Don't let the tail wag the dog.  Find a place you would love to live in and buy it and enjoy life there.  If it has value decades down the line and you choose to sell it and use the money for something else, that's a great bonus.  If you want a real estate investment, look beyond your primary residence at rentals or flipping homes.




nereo

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2023, 06:42:57 AM »
A house is not a financial investment. It is a place to live. An expense.

Until you sell it. If your life plan involves selling your home (or even passing via inheritance to someone else) then it’s important to examine it as an investment as well as and place to live. I large, expensive to discharge item with ongoing expenses, but an investment none the less.

A huge number of parents plan on downsizing as part of their retirement once the kids launch, and recouping that six-figure chunk of their net worth is key.


Hard to know if downsizing to a cheaper place was ever much of a thing, but appears to be a "myth" recently:
https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/home_garden/many-empty-nesters-looking-for-bigger-homes-not-downsizing/article_2c7c86d8-cccd-11ed-969d-5f4af2726ec3.html

In any case, it seems foolish to consider your primary home an "investment" in which you seek a competitive return as opposed to an optimum place to live.  Don't let the tail wag the dog.  Find a place you would love to live in and buy it and enjoy life there.  If it has value decades down the line and you choose to sell it and use the money for something else, that's a great bonus.  If you want a real estate investment, look beyond your primary residence at rentals or flipping homes.

Those are not the same things.
A home has value. It has (often high) carrying costs and opportunity cost which can be positive or negative (because it offsets whatever you would spend on rent). More often than not it’s leveraged.

For all the reasons discussed it can be a great or terrible financial move. Pretending that it’s not a key financial decision for many families is ignoring the reality of most people’s financial situations. suggesting that people don’t eventually sell their homes, or tap into the equity, or benefit eventually from a paid off mortgage is just bizarre. I’ve never met a financial advisor who completely ignores the cost and value of a persons home when crafting a financial plan.

smisk

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2023, 07:25:18 AM »
Everything boils down to the details - how much the house costs, how much the loan costs, how much an equivalent rental costs, what your timeline is, what your cashflow is, etc. There's just no simple, one-size-fits-all answer.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head, no easy answers! In general I think the attitudes in the US are overly biased towards home ownership (ie it's often seen as a rite of passage to adulthood etc) but there are definitely situations where it's beneficial. Imo the best reason to buy a house is that you want to stay in a certain area and don't have to worry about rent increases, which have recently been higher than inflation.

Laura33

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2023, 08:48:29 AM »
Lesson learned: don't apply 1980 Chicago real estate rules to CA property in the 2010s.

Real lesson:  don't apply 19XX or 2XXX real estate rules in [location] to [location] property in the 2XXXs.

Buy when you can afford it (after taking into consideration your other goals, like FIRE), you want to buy, you plan to stay put at least 10 years, and it makes sense to do so in your life.  Don't buy because you expect prices to continue to appreciate at XX% and hope to make a killing.  Maybe you'll get lucky, maybe you wont.  But either way, that's what it is:  luck.  Not skill, not "investing savvy."  Luck, pure and simple.

Back in the '70s-'80s, you couldn't sell a place in some areas of NYC, SF, or BOS to save your life.  If you'd bought then, you'd have thought you were a genius now.  But at the time, there was a huge malaise about the property market in general, this feeling that it would never go up again.  Hahahahahahahahaha.  And then there are a whole lot of areas of the country where RE prices stayed pretty flat for years while NY and CA skyrocketed -- as much as we read all these national stories, RE is still very largely local.*  But it's the dramatic changes that make the news.

Real estate is one of the few areas where normal individuals can take advantage of leverage.  Which is why it can result in comparatively outsized gains:  if you have 10% equity in a $300K home, and home prices go up 10%, you have a 100% return.  Huzzah!  But leverage also magnifies losses.  If you have 10% equity in a $300K home, and home prices go down 10%, you now have zero equity; if they drop more, you're now underwater. 

One thing I read a while ago that has largely held true in my life is that economic changes make it hard for most people to find themselves lucking into a major housing boom.  Most people need jobs and salaries, which often means gravitating to booming areas where there are jobs aplenty.  That influx of people often drives housing prices up (certainly in areas where there are constraints on the ability to build more housing to handle those new people).  But if those jobs go away, people need to sell and move somewhere else.  All of which means that if you are chasing jobs, you are more likely to buy into a market where prices are rising/already high and rising more, and more likely to sell into a market that is dropping.  Now, certainly, people in NY and CA will tell me that's crazy, because the housing boom there has been pretty dramatically and consistently rising for a long time.  But remember, how much you make depends on both how much you pay and how much you get when you sell.  If you're able to hang on for a decade or more, sell in a boom, and then move somewhere

The way to lock in some degree of success in RE, say 90% of the time, is to figure out some way to avoid moving.  FI helps.  We had to move a couple of times when DH's job went away, including selling in the first tech crash and losing about $100K.  OTOH, in the 2008-2009 crash, we didn't need to sell, because our jobs were secure.  I have no idea how much value our house lost, because we never had to consider selling -- and however much it went down, it has far more than made up for it since. 

Now, we haven't had the huge value swings of some of the other areas.  There's no way my house has gained me more than if I'd put the money in VTSAX.  But that's ok, because that was never the point.  By the time we bought it, we had saved enough that we wouldn't have had to sell it even if one job went away.  And it has provided a great place to live and raise our kids, and we hope it will continue to provide a great home base for the next several decades.

*One of my friends is in SF.  Several years ago, she was very much stressing about buying a townhome for around $1.3M -- she's sole breadwinner, and even with her excellent salary, the price freaked her out.  Several years later when she was unhappy at work, the townhouse was worth $2.4, which gave her an excellent safety net if the shit hit the fan and she needed to sell.  Meanwhile, my generic mid-Atlantic, non-DC suburban home might possibly have increased in value by maybe 10% over that 5-8 year period.

yachi

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2023, 10:31:59 AM »
Am I missing something?

Yes,

1. A comparison to rent costs, really any rent costs, but to be fair rent costs for an equally sized unit. 

We moved into our 1600 square foot, 3 bedroom house 13 years ago for a mortgage cost (including taxes!) of less than we were paying to rent a 2 bedroom 900 square foot apartment.  The apartment had attached neighbors on 3 sides, the house is stand alone.  A slight caveat is we moved to an area a little far away.  After increased taxes and cash out refinances we now pay $1090 a month including taxes, and that apartment now rents for about $1600 a month.

2. Inflation

That apartment has just about kept pace with inflation.  In March 2010 we were paying about $1090 in rent, and the CPI calculator says that had the same buying power as $1,537.86 today, so my apartment example isn't far off from reasonable expectations.  Meanwhile, inflation during this period has effectively made my house mortgage (and taxes!) 34.6% cheaper.

3. An understanding of the risk involved in lending huge sums of money, and a comparison to other financial lending instruments.

The only reason we have such long mortgage products at such low (and fixed!) interest rates is because of government meddling.  Lots of other countries don't have fixed interest rate mortgages, and they've probably seen quite the shock from recent rate hikes.  My mortgage is still as low of a rate as when I first got it.  You mentioned a 7% interest rate, and I don't know of anywhere you could borrow for that low of a rate for 10 or more years, not to mention 30 years. 

After accounting for property transfer fees, auction costs, maintenance, and court fees, banks don't make near 80% of the original value back from a foreclosed property, so a lender is undergoing quite a bit of risk.  That's why you don't see a lot of private money lending for such long terms.

4. Applying a similar formula to other purchases.

You're looking at the total cost of borrowing for the house over the next 30 years, and seeing a huge number, but you're seeing it in isolation.  It's easily reportable, and required to be shown, but it's not all that enlightening because the borrowing period is so long.  It doesn't seem to cost so much to borrow to purchase a car, but that's because the period is much shorter.  Stack 6 5-year car borrowing loans and you're looking a large number too.

I've seen friends with high returns from their residential properties, but I consider it a purchase.  Much like I buy a car when I need long range transportation, or a refrigerator when I need a place to store cold foods, I buy a house when I need a place to live.  I could rent a place to live (see #1).  And if I could Uber around and haul brush from my house cheaper than owning cars, I would do that.  But we buy lots of things, and the cost of things we buy can have a huge effect on our finances too.

As an example, I'd venture to say you forgo 5% per year returns on nearly everything you buy when the option is leaving it in the stock market.  That single one time $5 coffee?  $100 cost over the next 62 years.  That $300 arm chair? $6,000 over the next 62 years.  The replacement arm chair you buy 20 years from now?  Another $2,300.  The replacement of the replacement arm chair you buy 40 years from now?  Another $877.  So you could say the cost of having an arm chair to sit in over the rest of your lifetime is $9,000 in missed stock market returns and periodic replacement.


So it's expensive to live the life you want, what else is new?  You can minimize your expenses by replacing things less frequently (arm chairs or houses!), by renting (home depot trucks or houses!), or buy buying only as much as you need (coffee size or house size!).  But you have to make a comparison, not just be scared away by the costs, or your find yourself homeless, armchairless, and coffeless.


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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2023, 07:28:38 PM »
I think one benefit of owning at least once you are FIREd is that it reduces sequence of returns risk.  If you use cash to pay rent on an annual basis you have to earn that cash from the market.  So from a safe withdrawal rate that 2k rent would need 600k backing it.

That 600k is subject to sequence of returns risk and failure in a way your home isn’t so maybe to compare you’d have to drop to a 3.25 or 3.5 SWR.  Or perhaps just factor annuity prices rather than market returns when assessing the value of non-mortgage option during FIRE.  In the wealth building phase comparing against the market makes sense but once retired I think your risk tolerance goes down.

nereo

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2023, 04:11:16 AM »
I think one benefit of owning at least once you are FIREd is that it reduces sequence of returns risk.  If you use cash to pay rent on an annual basis you have to earn that cash from the market.  So from a safe withdrawal rate that 2k rent would need 600k backing it.

That 600k is subject to sequence of returns risk and failure in a way your home isn’t so maybe to compare you’d have to drop to a 3.25 or 3.5 SWR.  Or perhaps just factor annuity prices rather than market returns when assessing the value of non-mortgage option during FIRE.  In the wealth building phase comparing against the market makes sense but once retired I think your risk tolerance goes down.

This kind of logic is riddled with holes.

First, mortgage debt will sunset, so you would not need $600k to “cover” 2k in monthly rent.  To visualize why this is so, consider about a mortgage with $2k monthly and 12 years remaining… the total amount you would pay over the next 12 years is “just” 288k.  So it doesn’t make sense to say you need 600k to cover that 2k mortgage expense, even when considering SORR. Even better, if the mortgage is fixed the real cost goes down each year with inflation, while your WR increases to match inflation. 

The other major piece that’s left out is opportunity cost: it’s always great to have lower expenses (in this case no mortgage), but that money has to come from somewhere.  Here it means less savings. The amount will depend on the investment horizon, market an mortgage rates, but  when we are talking about six-figured mortgages the amount is typically a multiple of that (in other words, several hundred thousand dollars).


edit:  never mind... I think I was reading what CDN saver was saying in a way it wasn't intended.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 08:53:44 AM by nereo »

yachi

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2023, 08:40:43 AM »
I think one benefit of owning at least once you are FIREd is that it reduces sequence of returns risk.  If you use cash to pay rent on an annual basis you have to earn that cash from the market.  So from a safe withdrawal rate that 2k rent would need 600k backing it.

That 600k is subject to sequence of returns risk and failure in a way your home isn’t so maybe to compare you’d have to drop to a 3.25 or 3.5 SWR.  Or perhaps just factor annuity prices rather than market returns when assessing the value of non-mortgage option during FIRE.  In the wealth building phase comparing against the market makes sense but once retired I think your risk tolerance goes down.

This kind of logic is riddled with holes.

First, mortgage debt will sunset, so you would not need $600k to “cover” 2k in monthly rent.  To visualize why this is so, consider about a mortgage with $2k monthly and 12 years remaining… the total amount you would pay over the next 12 years is “just” 288k.  So it doesn’t make sense to say you need 600k to cover that 2k mortgage expense, even when considering SORR. Even better, if the mortgage is fixed the real cost goes down each year with inflation, while your WR increases to match inflation. 

The other major piece that’s left out is opportunity cost: it’s always great to have lower expenses (in this case no mortgage), but that money has to come from somewhere.  Here it means less savings. The amount will depend on the investment horizon, market an mortgage rates, but  when we are talking about six-figured mortgages the amount is typically a multiple of that (in other words, several hundred thousand dollars).

Rent - a tenant's regular payment to a landlord for the use of property or land - does not sunset, and increases with inflation so you do need a stache to cover it.  The word 'rent' in the US is not used when referring to mortgage payments.

I read it as CDNSaver comparing owning (either while paying a mortgage or owning outright, that part isn't specified) in the first sentence, with renting in the second sentence.

nereo

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2023, 08:52:40 AM »

Rent - a tenant's regular payment to a landlord for the use of property or land - does not sunset, and increases with inflation so you do need a stache to cover it.  The word 'rent' in the US is not used when referring to mortgage payments.

Agreed.  I think using the term 'rent' to describe the PI portion of a mortgage payment invites confusion as they are not the same. Reading over your post I can interpret what CDNsaver wrote in a couple different ways.  If he was comparing owning (first sentence) to being a lifelong renter (second sentence) my response no longer applies.  So I'm just going to get rid of it to avoid further confusion.

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Re: The Mortgage - Should I avoid them?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2023, 03:50:38 PM »
In summary I'm having a hard time accepting the claim that purchasing a home is a great investment. It seems more like a luxury to me, a costly one at that.

Renting sucks?  It's fine, if you're willing to deal with bullshit fees, unrepaired things, an inability to change anything in the house, questions over hanging anything on the walls ("Will I get dinged for this?  Will my landlord claim I ruined the walls and they have to re-drywall the entire house for a nail hole?  Will my deposit cover that?"), and generally substandard housing you can't fix to not be horrid (a living room and two upstairs bedrooms all sharing the same 15A circuit, say).

I cannot speak for many here, but I am radically, radically happier (as is my wife) with a paid for house we can do whatever we want to (having found myself in the awkward position of "Nobody will loan me money for a house, but I can very creatively finance it on personal loans and credit cards, paid off rapidly").  And, yes, there are maintenance costs, but with how rapidly property values are appreciating in many areas, it beats the "Oh.  Another $400/month in rent this year.  Again." rebudgeting challenges.

Also, as a homeowner, I can do my own electrical and plumbing work legally.  I cannot do that in a rental.