Author Topic: The Apple challenge!!  (Read 13644 times)

catalana

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The Apple challenge!!
« on: March 08, 2012, 06:31:31 AM »
My dearly beloved has gone all glassy eyed at the prospect of a new iPad.  Now he's normally a pretty frugal guy, but there's something about that small bit of fruit that seems to switch off the sane part of his brain.

He has already got an iPad.  It works just fine.

Please please please give me some words of wisdom (or better yet an article!) to point him on the righteous path....  Anything I say gets put down as being a complainypants, and "it's his money he is spending".

[Postscript - if he does splash the cash, then darn it, I'm going to buy the same value in Apple shares]

Sparafusile

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 06:41:38 AM »
Encourage him to at least sell the older iPad prior to buying the new one. That will lessen the overall money required.

You could also tell him that Apple (and all PC manufacturers) has a history of shipping hardware that doesn't quit work perfectly out of the box (antenagate for example). Waiting a month or three will lessen the chances of getting a lemon. That will give you more time to break down his defenses.

Perhaps you could provide incentive for him to get some of the honey-do list knocked out of the park prior to sinking his time into a new toy.

catalana

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 06:44:57 AM »
Perhaps you could provide incentive for him to get some of the honey-do list knocked out of the park prior to sinking his time into a new toy.
Eh?!  I haven't got a clue what this means, LOL

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 07:24:03 AM »
Make a compromise to see if he can wait a bit - the best time to get a deal on one is 6 months from now (don't save much, but at least a little). 

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ipad-3-apple-tablet-deal-price,news-14315.html

I'm still rockin' the iPad 1, almost two years later, seeing no reason to upgrade to an iPad 2 (camera? phhh, like I'm gonna take pictures with a giant tablet.  slightly better screen?  slightly better processor?  phhh).  I was sure I'd upgrade to an iPad 3 when it came out, but after hearing the upgrades (slightly better camera?  slightly better processor?  phhh), I guess I'll keep the iPad 1, and wait til the iPad 4.  I'm sure at that point it'll be worth it to upgrade.  ;)

I do love it and use it daily, and if it was lost or broken, I'd go replace it the same day (almost never use a laptop anymore).  But the difference between the 1 and the 2 (and now 3) just isn't worth it for my uses (mostly reading, news, forums, books, etc.)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 07:25:39 AM by arebelspy »
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Sparafusile

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 07:32:53 AM »
The honey-do list - "honey, please do this", "honey, please do that". Usually consisting of broken items around the house, leaky sinks, hanging drapes, etc.

Danielle

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 08:07:50 AM »
[Postscript - if he does splash the cash, then darn it, I'm going to buy the same value in Apple shares]

I find this interesting because one share of apple stock is currently $534, just slightly more than the price of the new iPad (16g model).  One slice of Apple pie, or a new gadget...hmmm...

catalana

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 09:04:13 AM »
The honey-do list - "honey, please do this", "honey, please do that". Usually consisting of broken items around the house, leaky sinks, hanging drapes, etc.
Ahhhhhhh.  The idea of such a list is marvelous ..... I'll try and introduce it!  I wonder if he'll write one for me in return?

More seriously, the time spent on a new gadget is not the issue.  He will likely not spend any more time using it, as (let's be realistic) it isn't much different to the existing iPad.

Sparafusile hit the nail on the head with selling the existing iPad, and in his defence he will do this.  He always does this with gadgets, and gets good prices by keeping original boxes and putting covers on them etc.


catalana

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 09:04:58 AM »
[Postscript - if he does splash the cash, then darn it, I'm going to buy the same value in Apple shares]

I find this interesting because one share of apple stock is currently $534, just slightly more than the price of the new iPad (16g model).  One slice of Apple pie, or a new gadget...hmmm...
We all know which is better value long term.....   

sol

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 09:18:37 AM »
I try to dissuade myself from making large unnecessary purchases by thinking of the future value of that cost if I instead invested it for retirement.

In this case, a new mid-range ipad 3 with 4G will cost about $794 after tax.  If he instead stuck with his current ipad and invested that $794 in the stock market at even a modest 9%, then at retirement in 30 years he would have almost $11,000.

And that's only accounting for the upfront cost of the unit, not the monthly subscription fee if he wants the 4G LTE version.

Is a slightly newer fanboy toy really worth $11k?  For some people, that's a whole year's of living expenses in retirement, so for them buying a new ipad 3 this year would mean having to postpone retirement by about a year.

Mrs MM

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 09:50:26 AM »
I would try and have him delay by going on and on about how the next version of the iPad will be waaaay better.  ;)

Haha.  This is a good question though.  At some point, the shine of these new products lose their appeal, although I'm not sure how.  I have an iPhone 3GS and after a few years of being awed by how futuristic it is, I'm sort of over and done with it.  I'm actually considering getting rid of it, except it is extremely handy when I'm away from home (say on a hike and needing to check e-mail) and my part-time job pays for the privilege of having it.

Maybe have him make a list of the benefits of the new iPhone vs. saving the money?  If he were to actually write down why he wants it, he may find that the list is actually blank (or not very convincing).

tddoog

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 09:52:38 AM »
You might remind him that the dollar value doesn't actually cover the real cost of a new gadget.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all

If you can find a way to see it.  "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs" was eye opening for me. 

AJ

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 10:35:48 AM »
I would try and have him delay by going on and on about how the next version of the iPad will be waaaay better.  ;)

If you could get him to wait 6 months "so Apple can work the kinks out", then you'd only be 6 months out from the iPad 4 :)

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 04:37:16 PM »
I try to dissuade myself from making large unnecessary purchases by thinking of the future value of that cost if I instead invested it for retirement.

In this case, a new mid-range ipad 3 with 4G will cost about $794 after tax.  If he instead stuck with his current ipad and invested that $794 in the stock market at even a modest 9%, then at retirement in 30 years he would have almost $11,000.

And that's only accounting for the upfront cost of the unit, not the monthly subscription fee if he wants the 4G LTE version.

Is a slightly newer fanboy toy really worth $11k?  For some people, that's a whole year's of living expenses in retirement, so for them buying a new ipad 3 this year would mean having to postpone retirement by about a year.

The math on this is so silly, because you're not accounting for inflation at all. 

You constantly mix up today's dollars and future dollars.  For example, you say: "Is a slightly newer fanboy toy really worth $11k?  [Editor's note: today's dollars] For some people, that's a whole year's of living expenses in retirement[Editor's note: future dollars]" I'd bet you they won't live on 11K in 30 years.

If that helps you trick yourself, that's fine, but that's not how it actually works.
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sol

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 05:13:31 PM »
The math on this is so silly, because you're not accounting for inflation at all. 

You're right, my math is faulty.  I'm deliberately trying to exaggerate the true cost of a frivolous purchase.

Also, buying a new ipad to replace your current ipad is totally the best use I can think of for $794 dollars.  A child dies from drinking contaminated water somewhere in the world every 8 seconds, but that new ipad has got like a high-def screen and a higher megapixel rear-facing camera.

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 07:18:41 PM »
So long as you know it's faulty and are just using it as a mental hack, that's fine. ;)

And like I said above, I'm sticking with my iPad 1.

The child dying argument can apply to basically anything you own, unless you give away 90%+ of what you make.  That being said, you aren't wrong.

Peter Singer has some books you should read. You would enjoy The Life You Can Save.
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sol

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 07:22:50 PM »
The child dying argument can apply to basically anything you own, unless you give away 90%+ of what you make.

I intend to give away 100% of what I own, eventually.  "What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal."

Is that icon the Cheat?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 07:28:30 PM by sol »

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 08:41:57 PM »
Is that icon the Cheat?

Yup, the Cheat from "The Mile" SB email.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
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dahlink

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 10:42:14 PM »
I thought that was "The Cheat"..."The Cheat is grounded!"

Anyways, I am a techie myself and a bit of an apple fan boy but I also am a fanboy of androd, microsoft, linux, webos, and any good tech under the sun.

It will be very hard IMHO to dissuade the purchase.  One thing that helps me from lustful techie impulses is to itemize the reasons to buy then analyze the list.  I won't buy "the new iPad" because LTE is the reason to buy to replace my ISP but the plan is $80 for 10GB...which is of course INSANE!  17 hours of streaming video per month and then premium data...not doable for me.

I think a used, new (without tax), or refurbished iPad 2 is a better buy.  If he already owns an iPad 2 then he should just enjoy his purchase i think.  I would upgrade from the iPad 1 but it is not necessary as arebelspy mentioned.  The iPad 1 works great and only a select few apps will not work on it, and same case for the ipad 2 likely in the near future.

Perhaps he could buy the new apple TV instead and have fun with the airplay feature.

If you cannot steer him away I would recommend at least buying from a online retailer that does not charge tax.

http://www.appleinsider.com/ipod_price_guide/

This link is to the ios product guide, their mac guide is better, but at least you can see the a few different retailers with their competitive rates together.  Since I am in California I buy from amazon or macconnection. YMMV, and depending on state laws you may be required to claim the purchase, despite the inability of the state to enforce the collection but that is another conversation for another forum IMHO.

smedleyb

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 05:40:37 AM »
Catalana,

Don't be doubly foolish and buy Apple stock at these levels.  Yes, I know the stock is cheap on a PE basis; yes, they have almost $100 a share in cash; but...

a) everyone and their mother and their mother's yoga instructor already owns the stock, thus, who is left to buy to drive the price higher?

b) it is the ultimate Mustachian paradox that the most valuable company and most important stock on the planet is a consumer electronics company devoted to making wickedly cool electronic gizmos that nobody really needs. 

madgeylou

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 06:51:32 AM »

Perhaps he could buy the new apple TV instead and have fun with the airplay feature.


yes! the new apple tv is loads of fun. if he has an ipad2 or an iphone 4s already, he can play games on the big screen which is a blast! (i'm a katamari girl myself.)

i have an ipad1 and it is still really great for everything i use it for. my recent discovery is that, if you stream video from a network website on the ipad, and display it on the tv via appletv, all the ads are stripped out!

Aloysius_Poutine

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 10:24:11 AM »
iPads are exhibit #1 why people fail to accumulate wealth. Your boyfriend doesn't need an iPad, especially if he already has one! What a waste of perfectly good money.

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 11:19:14 AM »
iPads are exhibit #1 why people fail to accumulate wealth. Your boyfriend doesn't need an iPad, especially if he already has one! What a waste of perfectly good money.

I donno, I own an iPad AND an iPhone and save 70%+ of my income.  Oh and the wife and I are teachers, so we don't just make an absurd amount (not even 6 figures, together, with Master's degrees each).

Blanket statements are hard to make.
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Aloysius_Poutine

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 11:25:24 AM »
Nah, perfectly easy to make. But hard to qualify :)

I really like playing with iPads, but to me it's a money dump. $500 or more is a lot of money. And people who buy iPads usually have a propensity to buy other gadgetry. To each their own, certainly, but iPads just aren't for me.

tzxn3

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2012, 03:56:11 AM »
Apple are a horrible company. If you care about your freedom, do not buy from them.

  • Their devices are ridiculously overpriced.
  • They dictate what software you should or shouldn't be allowed to run on a device you've paid for.
  • If you develop software for their mobile platform, they dictate what languages you can use, how you should design the interface, and what functionality the software can have.
  • They dictate which hardware you can run software that you've paid for on.
  • They don't support free media formats such as Vorbis, Theora and FLAC.

https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/5-reasons-to-avoid-iphone-3g
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/jailbreaking-apple-iphone
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=apple+banned+apps

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2012, 04:08:17 AM »
Ah, a F/OSS zealot.

I won't attempt to argue with you, just point out that the first bullet point is an opinion, not a fact, and the others are based on a philosophy that not everyone holds, or at least not to the same degree as you.

Feel free to point out why you don't purchase Apple, and encourage others not to, but you undermine your own arguments when you start the way you did.

"Apple are (sic) a horrible company." - The vast majority of people disagree.  Starting with this unfounded claim is an immediate turn-off.

"If you care about your freedom, do not buy from them."  - And hyperbole is the easiest way to lose someone.

State what you believe, but watch how you present it.

Disclaimer: I support FLOSS.  I don't support FUD.
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tzxn3

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »
I value freedom to do as I choose with hardware or software I've purchased, above marketing hype and shiny user interfaces. I see no reason for anyone to buy Apple's products when alternatives exist which are nowhere near as restrictive.

I'm not really an F/OSS zealot; I freely admit to buying things from Steam on occasion, which has many of the same problems. I use Windows (though I intend to switch to Linux soon) and my machine has plenty of proprietary software. However, in the case of Apple's mobile devices, there are huge numbers of alternatives available, which provide exactly the same features, at cheaper prices to boot. It should be a no-brainer.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 11:32:10 AM by tzxn3 »

sol

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 11:36:49 AM »
in the case of Apple's mobile devices, there are huge numbers of alternatives available, which provide exactly the same features, at cheaper prices to boot. It should be a no-brainer.

I would take that a step further, and say that the currently available alternatives are not only less expensive, but actually offer superior products, both in terms of hardware specs and functionality.  The open access issue is purely a bonus.

The only thing Apple sells is marketing.  They're just like Nike or The Gap, they don't actually produce anything other than advertisements.  All of their production and supply chain has been outsourced to subsidiary companies, and Apple just buys the products and then markets them very effectively so that they can command higher prices.  The fundamental business model of all of these companies is to create markups through advertising.

How Mustachian is it to succumb to buying a crappier product at a higher price, just because a commercial told you to?

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2012, 07:09:08 PM »
How Mustachian is it to succumb to buying a crappier product at a higher price, just because a commercial told you to?

That's not Mustachian at all.  However not everyone believes it is a crappier product.

Some are sold on marketing, sure.  Or wanting to be "cool."  Or whatever.

I use iOS devices (iPad and iPhone) because I greatly prefer them to the alternatives.  It's worth the price premium.  I've owned Android phones, and wasn't a big fan.

I may try Windows Phone next, but for me the iOS ecosystem (apps in particular) is far superior.  There are some apps that I use a lot that are basically worth the premium for me.

On the other hand I use a Windows laptop because the value ISN'T there for me for the macbook.  It might be for someone else though, and I wouldn't try to convince them that they're an idiot fooled by marketing and their choice is empirically, unequivocally far inferior.

Keep in mind that your opinion of Apple products is not the same as everyone's opinions, and that's not just because they're blinded by marketing and you aren't.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
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sol

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2012, 07:49:10 PM »
Keep in mind that your opinion of Apple products is not the same as everyone's opinions, and that's not just because they're blinded by marketing and you aren't.

Fair enough.  I recognize that operating system is a matter of preference, and some people will prefer iOS to android or whatever. 

The hardware and price comparisons, though, are pretty easy to quantify.  Android phones are consistently less expensive for better hardware, and I'm having a hard time finding a way to argue with those numbers.  Hell, my htc evo is almost two years old and still has better hardware than the newest iphones.  In smartphone evolution time, 2 years is like an epoch.

Maybe people some people REALLY like the software so much they're willing to tolerate out-of-date hardware technology?

Of course, the whole thing is kind of silly on a forum like this, where I think we can all agree that paying for the latest and greatest smartphone is about as unmustachian as it gets.


masont

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 08:19:01 PM »
Have him keep his iPad 2 until they come out with an iPad 4.  Then buy a used 3 off Craigslist from someone else who's upgrading to the latest greatest.  Sell your 2 then, you'll probably only spend an extra 50 or 100 bucks at that point in time.

If you like technology, just stay one step behind the latest tech.  You get upgrades just as often, they're just delayed six months to a year. 

Mrs MM

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2012, 02:17:52 PM »
Stay tuned for tomorrow's article.... ;)

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2012, 08:12:12 AM »
The Cyanide and Happiness today was amusing.

http://www.explosm.net/comics/2735/



No offense intended to anyone.  :D
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Mike Key

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2012, 09:30:50 AM »
How Mustachian is it to succumb to buying a crappier product at a higher price, just because a commercial told you to?

How Mustachian is it to buy a cheap product based on price that won't last very long, costs you more time, hassle and has almost ZERO resale value after a short time of ownership?

This is like arguing that I should eat twinkies because it's cheaper than eating organic. No long term thought or evaluation on outcome is done, instead and immediate decision based on price is made.

That's exactly how unmustachian people buy things, they think their being thrifty, but in the end they still spend more.

The hardware and price comparisons, though, are pretty easy to quantify.  Android phones are consistently less expensive for better hardware, and I'm having a hard time finding a way to argue with those numbers.  Hell, my htc evo is almost two years old and still has better hardware than the newest iphones.  In smartphone evolution time, 2 years is like an epoch.

I'll quantify it for you.

Are we talking on or off contract? My phone cost me $250.00 (32gb on contract) the 16gb was $150.00 on contract. Your phone was $199.99 on 2-year contract with eligible discounts. $449.99 before discounts. Hmm... doesn't look cheaper.

Those comparisons on the surface are all gloss.

Let's take your EVO and compare it to my iPhone 4

If you're reasoning is 4G makes it superior alone, that's snuff as it's not available everywhere yet. And it certainly wasn't 2 years ago when that phone first came out on SPRINT of all networks. Wouldn't do me any good in my location now either. The processor is the same speed at 1ghz, the memory is the same, storage capacity is less, but yours is upgradable to what mine is by default (32gb). Your battery life is worse, your screen might be larger, but the quality isn't as impressive with less resolution and TFT LCD, please, that's old school at best. Should I dig out the Gizmodo review?

I'll give you points for higher MP camera's but MP's aren't everything, better sensors on the iPhone.

I won't pick on the software too much, but what version are you stuck at? The last update pushed for your phone was in June 2011. I know my manufacture will continue to support my phone with regular updates for at least another 2 years. I dont' have to worry about my carrier jacking up that process like I would if I owned an Android device, or having my phone loaded with crapware. Some android owners never get any updates at all. If this wasn't a problem, fragmentation of the Android platform wouldn't be written about so much.

(And please do not respond telling me about how you load custom roms and have your phone rooted. Mine is jailbroken, and that point goes to us nerds, we are like 2% of the population, so it's not a fair subject to bring up. Average Joe isn't going to be loading custom roms on his rooted Android.)

EVO is made out of plastic.

You could make the argument of the antennae problem I suppose. Although the EVO had screen problems with the first ones they shipped, oh yeah and the battery life sucked.

Your phone is thicker and heavier.

We could discuss warranty too. Both come with 1yr, except I only had to pay $65 to extend mine to 3 years which I can do again and again. And while you could argue for carrier insurance that will replace your phone, you'll be stuck with some carrier tech for any problems, while I can get my phone serviced quickly for free by someone who actually knows what they are doing at any Apple store in the country. I can get my questions answered, etc. Hell I think that's a huge win right there.

Should I mention long term resale value???

Is that quantified enough?

This is like arguing that the Corvette is superior to the Porsche because it has the same performance characteristics and is cheaper.

sol

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2012, 10:02:38 AM »
Lol.  I knew it was only a matter of time.

Mike Key

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2012, 10:36:15 AM »
Lol.  I knew it was only a matter of time.

You said you could quantify it. I rendered your argument moot. Pick a better example next time to argue over, not the EVO.

It's Apples and Oranges.

Corvettes can be faster, are cheaper to maintain, have more affordable aftermarket parts. Porsches are hand crafted with better materials (to a degree), more expensive, blah blah blah. Arguing which one goes around the track faster, performs better or is more well crafted is a matter of mostly opinion and a few facts.

When I got married 2yrs ago, my wife asked for a Macbook and my words to her, "They'll never be an apple product in my home".

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2012, 10:39:26 AM »

When I got married 2yrs ago, my wife asked for a Macbook and my words to her, "They'll never be an apple product in my home".

You were so staunchly anti-Apple.  Now you're so staunchly pro-Apple.

That, to me, shows there should be room for a middle ground.  If you were so wrong then, how do you know you're not that wrong now?

I don't like to be that absolute on anything.

Apple products for some, not for others.  Miniature American flags for everyone!
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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2012, 10:47:40 AM »
I did say Apples and Oranges didn't I?

There is plenty of room for middle ground. I was trying a different approach from yours.


 However not everyone believes it is a crappier product.

I use iOS devices (iPad and iPhone) because I greatly prefer them to the alternatives.  It's worth the price premium.  I've owned Android phones, and wasn't a big fan.

On the other hand I use a Windows laptop because the value ISN'T there for me for the macbook.  It might be for someone else though, and I wouldn't try to convince them that they're an idiot fooled by marketing and their choice is empirically, unequivocally far inferior.

Keep in mind that your opinion of Apple products is not the same as everyone's opinions, and that's not just because they're blinded by marketing and you aren't.

I don't feel like I was ever suckered into Apple products or that I'm a fanboy/trendy. For me, the choice has been logical and thought out, so when people imply it's not, I like to play devils advocate.

adam

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2012, 12:09:08 PM »
A Corvette is cheaper to modify and maintain than a Porsche

;)

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2012, 01:03:04 PM »
A Corvette is cheaper to modify and maintain than a Porsche

;)


A Camaro is cheaper than both and the same horse-power can be achieved. However a Camaro is not a Corvette.

arebelspy

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2012, 01:51:49 PM »
A Corvette is cheaper to modify and maintain than a Porsche

;)

Bicycle?
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adam

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2012, 01:52:40 PM »
A Corvette is cheaper to modify and maintain than a Porsche

;)


A Camaro is cheaper than both and the same horse-power can be achieved. However a Camaro is not a Corvette.

The Camaro, while not a horrible option for the money (in this comparison), is significantly slower than either the Corvette or the Porsche on the track.  ~20 seconds slower on the Nurburgring.

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Re: The Apple challenge!!
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 01:51:29 PM »
I think a few people on this thread won a trophy...