Author Topic: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!  (Read 1262 times)

TheAnonOne

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1803
Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« on: December 19, 2022, 11:50:14 AM »
I really want to know if heat pumps are good idea for my situation. Everything you read online makes them sound like some magic tool that saves you hundreds a month. That said I think I have a more extreme situation, and the jury is out. Up in the midwest we get cheap natural gas, so it has to compete with that.

My furnace and AC are both 10+ years old and have been repaired a few times already each. That said, I am interested in lower utility bills even if that means a large upfront investment. Id rather have an idea if this is even a possibility before calling anyone though.

Situation:
Area: Midwest North, humid summers, very cold Jan/Feb (-20*F nights occasionally)
SQFT: 4,200+
Windows: Many, 30+


Calculators online say 80-110k BTUs for the heat pump, some say 8Ton units are required, but the odd thing is my current furnace is 220k BTUs, so I am a bit lost!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 01:04:32 PM by TheAnonOne »

Nate R

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 414
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Milwaukee, WI (Bay View)
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2022, 12:09:02 PM »
220!?
First, lets figure out your current NG use.
From your utility bills....how many therms of gas did you use in your coldest billing period in the last year? How many days was that, and how many HDD (heating degree days) were during that time?

How many therms and HDD during July or August? (This accounts for other appliances that use gas in your house)


uniwelder

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Appalachian Virginia
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2022, 01:43:32 PM »
220!?
First, lets figure out your current NG use.
From your utility bills....how many therms of gas did you use in your coldest billing period in the last year? How many days was that, and how many HDD (heating degree days) were during that time?

How many therms and HDD during July or August? (This accounts for other appliances that use gas in your house)

+1. This is the way

Also be aware that you can't just go by the rated BTU output of the heat pump because it will lose capacity as the temperature drops.  For your temperatures, I would think you'd keep the natural gas for temps below a certain degree, and the heat pump for temps above that.  So you'll want to know the BTU output at that lower threshold.  This could be anywhere from 50% to 90%, depending on the quality of heat pump and temperature you choose.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 01:50:56 PM by uniwelder »

TheAnonOne

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1803
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2022, 01:03:56 PM »
220!?
First, lets figure out your current NG use.
From your utility bills....how many therms of gas did you use in your coldest billing period in the last year? How many days was that, and how many HDD (heating degree days) were during that time?

How many therms and HDD during July or August? (This accounts for other appliances that use gas in your house)

Ok I super screwed up that number. 200k+ was a tankless water heater I was shopping for earlier this year.

Looks like the furnace has a maximum of 90,000 BTUs....

Malossi792

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 200
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2022, 03:45:12 AM »
+1 on a hybrid system, either manual (you switch to NG when the heat pump isn't adequate) or integrated automatic (it's a thing!).

Nate R

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 414
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Milwaukee, WI (Bay View)
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2022, 06:09:29 AM »

Looks like the furnace has a maximum of 90,000 BTUs....

OK, that makes more sense.

Still would want those other #s to help you start with sizing.....

Jon Bon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1669
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2022, 06:41:15 AM »
Ok back up:

When was your house built?
What kind of insulation do you have in the walls?
What kind of insulation in the ceiling?
What Climate zone do you live in?

I currently have a hybrid system, took me a while to get it right. I do not like my heat pump at all. It might be too strong a statement to say it was a mistake, but there is a massive difference if you live somewhere that actually get cold.

Heat pumps are more expensive then gas, I have had discussions about which is better for the environment and I think that the HP is better, however its way more expensive then using natural gas.

Your house is also freaking huge, does it not already have multiple furnaces? If you had second furnaces for each floor a second floor HP might be a decent call. The best part of the HP upstairs is in my 100 year old house the upstairs used to roast in the summer due to design and thermodynamics. Having the HP upstairs lets it absolutely crush the hot air.

In the winter the reserve happens which is nice. The gas furnace heats the first floor and some of the second, we keep the HP about 2-4 degrees cooler than the gas furnace. As a result it has much less work to do (read much less cost)

I think HP are fantastic if you live below the Mason-Dixon line, I think they are marginal in climate zone 5, and not worth it in 6 or 7. Depending on your location, if cost savings is your primary concern. I would highly doubt HP wins they cost more to install, and more to run versus gas. If Environment is your main concern HP likely wins. But yes there is a bunch of noise out there saying that HPs are going to save the world, they have their place but are not a magic bullet. Most houses would highly benefit form additional air sealing and insulation before addressing a expensive piece of equipment.


index

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2022, 07:55:53 AM »
Ok back up:

When was your house built?
What kind of insulation do you have in the walls?
What kind of insulation in the ceiling?
What Climate zone do you live in?

I currently have a hybrid system, took me a while to get it right. I do not like my heat pump at all. It might be too strong a statement to say it was a mistake, but there is a massive difference if you live somewhere that actually get cold.

Heat pumps are more expensive then gas, I have had discussions about which is better for the environment and I think that the HP is better, however its way more expensive then using natural gas.

Your house is also freaking huge, does it not already have multiple furnaces? If you had second furnaces for each floor a second floor HP might be a decent call. The best part of the HP upstairs is in my 100 year old house the upstairs used to roast in the summer due to design and thermodynamics. Having the HP upstairs lets it absolutely crush the hot air.

In the winter the reserve happens which is nice. The gas furnace heats the first floor and some of the second, we keep the HP about 2-4 degrees cooler than the gas furnace. As a result it has much less work to do (read much less cost)

I think HP are fantastic if you live below the Mason-Dixon line, I think they are marginal in climate zone 5, and not worth it in 6 or 7. Depending on your location, if cost savings is your primary concern. I would highly doubt HP wins they cost more to install, and more to run versus gas. If Environment is your main concern HP likely wins. But yes there is a bunch of noise out there saying that HPs are going to save the world, they have their place but are not a magic bullet. Most houses would highly benefit form additional air sealing and insulation before addressing a expensive piece of equipment.

New heat pumps are a slam dunk for climate zones 4 and below. Many are rated for their full output a 0F.

If you have a smart thermostat, you can drill into the data and see how much your 90btu furnace is running on a cold day.

Say it is a 80% efficient furnace and it runs 14 hours -  90,000 btu x 80% x 14 = 1008k BTU/day. You can run the new heat pump for 24 hours so you can take 1008k BTU / 24 hrs and get - 42k BTU required per hour which is a 3.5 ton unit. If it is getting to -20F at night, you are going to need a backup heat source and the cheapest option is a gas furnace.

You can keep your current furnace and add a heat pump and a-coil. The heat pump will handle everything down to near 0F hen the furnace will take over. You get a 30% tax credit for the heat pump up to $2k starting 2023.

TheAnonOne

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1803
Re: Tell me about Heat Pump sizing and feasibility!
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2022, 02:52:44 PM »
Ok back up:

When was your house built? 1991
What kind of insulation do you have in the walls? no idea, but they are the thicker style (2x6 construction?)
What kind of insulation in the ceiling? blown
What Climate zone do you live in?  4b or 5a, twin cities of MN are kind of on the line.



 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!