Author Topic: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?  (Read 4860 times)

Guses

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Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« on: November 19, 2015, 08:17:49 AM »
This is a question for my fellow gamers / technically inclined friends.

I currently have a watercooled GTX 460 in my desktop computer. I find that it is having trouble keeping up with more recent games (e.g., Fallout 4 is very jerky even on medium/lowish settings). I love that it is watercooled since my PC is practically silent.

I have the opportunity to get a used watercooled GTX 580 for about 80$ USD. Is this a good idea?

I can probably sell my GTX 460 for 40$ meaning a 40$ out of pocket cost.

According to my research, the GTX 580 is between a GTX 950 and GTX 960 in terms of power (current generation GPUs). These cost 150$-250$ around here. Any drawback to getting the 580 besides the fact that it is older?

My PSU can handle the card just fine.
 

Apocalyptica602

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 09:48:33 AM »
Check the energy usage.

Newer cards tend to have dramatic increases in performance/watt. Quick google shows the 580 at 244W maximum power draw and the 960 at 120W. 950 is at 90.

Also temperatures, if I remember right (I used to have a system with 2 GTX 570s before I sold them) they were space heaters. Watercooling just means it would be even more effective at venting heat into your room. Potential cost if it makes your AC work harder, potential savings if you can lower the heat if you're spending a lot of time next to your computer!

You'd have to do the cost/benefit analysis on that, you might still be straight wth a 580 since the breakeven on energy would be longer than you'd keep the card.

Edit: Keep in mind I just sold my SLI 570s to upgrade toward a 980Ti to prepare for Virtual Reality (Oculus/Vive) so this is a very antimustachian hobby of mine, I applaud you for considering mid range cards where the value REALLY is for discerning gamers.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 09:50:18 AM by Apocalyptica602 »

Killerbrandt

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 09:52:36 AM »
Yes, for 40 dollars it is worth getting the 580. I recently went from a 570 to the 980, but I was still able to run most games on full graphics with my 570. I personally just wanted to blow Witcher 3 out of the water, so I upgraded. Overall, Yes!! 40 bucks! go for it.

johnny847

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 09:55:12 AM »
Check the energy usage.

Newer cards tend to have dramatic increases in performance/watt. Quick google shows the 580 at 244W maximum power draw and the 960 at 120W. 950 is at 90.

Also temperatures, if I remember right (I used to have a system with 2 GTX 570s before I sold them) they were space heaters. Watercooling just means it would be even more effective at venting heat into your room. Potential cost if it makes your AC work harder, potential savings if you can lower the heat if you're spending a lot of time next to your computer!

You'd have to do the cost/benefit analysis on that, you might still be straight wth a 580 since the breakeven on energy would be longer than you'd keep the card.

Max power draw is quite different from power draw in actual usage.

According to my research, the GTX 580 is between a GTX 950 and GTX 960 in terms of power (current generation GPUs). These cost 150$-250$ around here. Any drawback to getting the 580 besides the fact that it is older?

My PSU can handle the card just fine.
 

Just to be clear, power here is referring to computational speed, not energy draw per second? I assume so since the 580 is a top tier card of it's generation, and GPUs have come a long way in power (as in energy use per second) efficiency.

I ask because otherwise it seems like you're very focused on the cost side of the equation and not the benefits side.

You specifically mention Fallout 4. Have you checked benchmarks of Fallout 4? I imagine they may not be too easy to find for the GTX 580 though, it is an older card.
I highly doubt you want to do this, but I thought I'd mention just for completeness - the GTX 580 doesn't have HDMI 2.0, so you can't do 4k at 60 Hz

Guses

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 11:11:04 AM »
To answer Johnny847, I was indeed referring to the computational speed when I compared against current gen.

I am also aware that the 580 draws more watts under load. Given that I don't game 24/7 or even a significant amount of time (maybe a couple of hours here or there), I don't think it would even make a difference over the 2-3 years I would keep this card. Back of the enveloppe math says that I would need to play about 15,000 hours at MAX power draw in order to break even with the lower power draw cards. I am not THAT into gaming :P.

Good to know about HDMI 2.0, although I don't really care about 4K UHD displays as I don't intend to replace my 24 inch screen until it breaks.

I am having trouble finding benchmarks for the GTX 580 for fallout 4 specifically. According to a hardware comparison site, the 580 is about twice as fast as the 460 at pretty much everything. Since it is 3GB vs 1GB, it should also help with higher resolution gaming (I am 1920x1200). Is it realistic to expect a doubling of my FPS?

I probably get 30-50 FPS with occasional dips (10-20 FPS) <- Just a guess based on what I experienced in game, I haven't measured.



Killerbrandt

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 11:45:16 AM »
Maybe not exactly double the FPS because you need to account for your processor speed and RAM, but you should see a significant boost either way. I would say its safe to say that the 580 will be able to run Fallout 4 on max. I was shocked at how downplayed the graphics were, but I am comparing them to Witcher 3 which set the bar pretty darn high now hahaha. Overall, I think you can't go wrong with a 580 water cooled for 40 bucks. Matter of fact, I would probably buy that for my wife if I saw that deal. Also, if you want, you can private message me your steam name, I am always looking for people to play games with or just chat computer or gaming stuff with.

Jack

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 11:55:45 AM »
The other drawback to an older card is that it'll tend to not support the latest Direct3D/OpenGL features. That may not be a big deal (especially if the game itself isn't targeting the bleeding-edge API, or (like me) you refuse to use Windows 8 or 10), but it's a factor to consider.

chesebert

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2015, 12:00:22 PM »
This is a question for my fellow gamers / technically inclined friends.

I currently have a watercooled GTX 460 in my desktop computer. I find that it is having trouble keeping up with more recent games (e.g., Fallout 4 is very jerky even on medium/lowish settings). I love that it is watercooled since my PC is practically silent.

I have the opportunity to get a used watercooled GTX 580 for about 80$ USD. Is this a good idea?

I can probably sell my GTX 460 for 40$ meaning a 40$ out of pocket cost.

According to my research, the GTX 580 is between a GTX 950 and GTX 960 in terms of power (current generation GPUs). These cost 150$-250$ around here. Any drawback to getting the 580 besides the fact that it is older?

My PSU can handle the card just fine.
Are you going to get a 4K monitor in the next year or two? If yes, wait for next generation card. If no, go for the 580.

csprof

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2015, 08:22:59 PM »
Check the energy usage.

Newer cards tend to have dramatic increases in performance/watt. Quick google shows the 580 at 244W maximum power draw and the 960 at 120W. 950 is at 90.

Also temperatures, if I remember right (I used to have a system with 2 GTX 570s before I sold them) they were space heaters. Watercooling just means it would be even more effective at venting heat into your room. Potential cost if it makes your AC work harder, potential savings if you can lower the heat if you're spending a lot of time next to your computer!

You'd have to do the cost/benefit analysis on that, you might still be straight wth a 580 since the breakeven on energy would be longer than you'd keep the card.

Edit: Keep in mind I just sold my SLI 570s to upgrade toward a 980Ti to prepare for Virtual Reality (Oculus/Vive) so this is a very antimustachian hobby of mine, I applaud you for considering mid range cards where the value REALLY is for discerning gamers.

+this, several times over.  It's not worth it if you leave your computer on - even the idle power draw of a 2010 card is unnecessarily high.

A 750ti might just do it for you at 30-40W peak power draw and a similar price used.  2GB DRAM, which is a tad more than that 580.  You should look at the benchmark #s for the games you care about.  750ti is a drastically newer architecture that has much better power efficiency -- I'm going to guess that for many things, it's going to be a tad faster, a lot cooler, and quieter.  But YMMV - check the reviews.

yuka

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 09:15:42 PM »
I'm also someone who thought of the GTX 750 when I saw this question. It has lower memory bandwidth (mostly important for big/multi-monitor setups) and can't do SLI, but other than that they're pretty close. The 750 has more updated architecture, but that's probably not a concern unless you plan to do CUDA work. Lastly, don't forget that you'll be paying to cool off the room that you're heating with your computer, if you live in a place where AC is necessary.

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2015, 11:11:37 PM »
You likely have zero other options to provide a water cooled card upgrade for $40.  I have a water cooled 470 and would do it in a second.

Kroaler

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 10:36:43 AM »
I must buy my computer parts weird. Cause heres what I do,  I go to the website that ranks performance per $ and whenever I need a new item I buy the top ranked value.   My current card is a gtx 970 and had the highest performance per $ when I bought it.
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_value.html
 Looks like the 970 isn't winning the value war any more.  Looks like the cards at the top aren't exactly the latest and greatest.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 10:40:24 AM by Kroaler »

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2015, 12:01:36 AM »
Tom's hardware has been doing this for years too, lots of good info there and they update it regularly.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107.html

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2015, 06:18:20 AM »
Just make sure you use a reputable seller. The 580 is a power hungry beast. With any used card, I'm wondering how overclocked/abused it's been. Add in WC and there's the potential for a cracked water block.

I'd be tempted, for sure.

Set up your PC correctly, however, and you shouldn't notice the noise at all. Our current build is a 7970 Ghz, which is even hungrier than a 580 and I never notice the noise because of where the tower is hidden.

At 1920x1200 you should get at least 2-3 more years of service as long as you're not into heavy graphics mods/ENBs. And even then, there are almost always light footprint versions.

What CPU do you have, though? Bethesda's Creation Engine is almost always bottlenecks ar the CPU, not the GFX. I don't have Fallout 4 yet (waiting for the mod scene to get a head start) but Skyrim was heavily CPU dependent.

Last: Anandtech has a tool called Bench that will allow you to compare any two specific GPUs.

Mikenost12

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2015, 10:50:55 PM »
This is a question for my fellow gamers / technically inclined friends.

I currently have a watercooled GTX 460 in my desktop computer. I find that it is having trouble keeping up with more recent games (e.g., Fallout 4 is very jerky even on medium/lowish settings). I love that it is watercooled since my PC is practically silent.


I'm also upgrading for Fallout 4, not much of a gamer anymore but this was the one thing I needed to upgrade for! I went from a GTX 650 to a hand me down GTX 750 Ti and am hoping I can run it ok when I pick it up next month.

Here are benchmarks if your 460 is 2G
http://www.hwcompare.com/9137/geforce-gtx-460-2gb-vs-geforce-gtx-580/
Maybe newer drivers will help too

Guses

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2015, 08:14:17 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback. I did go for the GTX 580. See bottom of this post for an update of how it goes.

About the GTX 750ti; it is much less powerful (in terms of processing power) than the GTX 580 (3 Gb version, not 1.5 GB). Although the 750TI is a newer architecture, it is barely faster than the 460 that it would be replacing. According to the Tom's hardware chart, it is only 3 tiers higher than the GTX 460 whereas the GTX 580 is 6 tiers higher. Also, waterblocks are usually not available for entry level cards. Finally, it would still be more expensive than the GTX 580, not even considering the lack of water cooling.

@Goblinchief

We have limited space available to put my desktop, so it sits about a foot away from my face :P. I guess this explains why I don't want a leaf blower in my ear. It is true that Bethesda games are very CPU hungry. I am using a Core I5 3570K (bought used, traded it for an expresso machine that I had repaired) which should be beefy enough to handle the game.

Update:

I spent a good chunk of yesterday tinkering and replacing the card in my PC. It was a long adventure as I had trouble removing air bubbles due to the placement of my Rads.

The card runs absolutely beautifully! The difference in FO 4 is absolutely night and day. I did not expect to see that much of a difference to be honest. Smooth as butter.

I measured with my kill-a-watt and it idles at about 10-15 watts extra, not that big a deal. Load is about 60-80 watts more.

The curious thing is that the card is actually running cooler than my GTX 460 used to run. Probably the built in full lenght block is better than the standalone I bought for my 460... 

Anybody wants a gently used 460?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 08:16:21 AM by Guses »

Killerbrandt

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2015, 08:26:56 AM »
That's fantastic!! I am glad it turned out well!!

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2015, 09:28:17 AM »
That's fantastic!! I am glad it turned out well!!

+1

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2015, 10:47:19 AM »
Glad you went for it, I know I would have.

Easye418

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Re: Technical mustachian Q: Upgrade from GTX 460 to GTX 580?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2015, 12:15:29 PM »
Ahhhh.... if I only had time to get back to gaming.

My wife doesn't like PC games so we console game occasionally, but its sad the amount of games getting rid of "couch co-op".

Used to be a video game junkie. 

Age 16-20 = 40+ hours a week.  Good times.
Age 21-26=  0 hours a week.

Just a lifestyle change I suppose.