Author Topic: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics  (Read 57454 times)

Earthling

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Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« on: January 17, 2015, 08:35:15 PM »
Obama is going after the so-called wealthy in his upcoming State of the Union address: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-likely-to-make-economic-recovery-a-centerpiece-of-state-of-the-union-address/2015/01/17/22ecec32-9cd6-11e4-a7ee-526210d665b4_story.html?hpid=z1.

So, has anybody built a "wealth tax" into their FI plans?

And for America's youth, what do you make of a President who wants to punish those who save? You are already going to get saddled with the Nation's crushing debt. And now the President you effectively elected is going to penalize your frugal habits.

Gin1984

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 08:39:33 PM »
I think it will help us get wealthy, if it passes, which I doubt it will.  All of the proposals seem reasonable, including increasing the capital gains.  The middle class is the reason out country is so great and we need to stop harming our middle class if we want to get ahead.  The best time for our country was at the same time as extremely high rate rates on the wealthy.

UnleashHell

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 08:39:45 PM »
the increased tax on dividends and capital gains only affects those earning more than 500K per couple.

did you actually read the article?

Left

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 08:39:51 PM »
From what I've read on it so far, I kind of like it. I mean I see nothing in there that actually affects MMM that greatly. The higher capital gains taxes maybe, sounds like it is tiered so shouldn't affect any/many here.

How does it penalize frugal habits? It seems like he is actually trying to help the middle class save. Not that the MyRA helps much since it has the same limits as a roth IRA and you can't contribute to both?

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 08:40:39 PM »
It's all about class envy & soak the rich while promising a handout to those who have not worked for it. What it actually does is further kill the economy.

The rich are already paying far more than their so-called fair share. They will figure it out. The middle class will be screwed.

Left

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2015, 08:46:10 PM »
@Giz, what exactly are the handouts, the tax credits? If so, why aren't the tax credits to businesses considered handouts? Sure, it taxes the rich, no more than how much income is taxed now. I never really understood why capital gains tax wasn't the same as income tax to begin with. This seems to even it out a bit more, I don't mind it.

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2015, 09:05:18 PM »
Capital gains taxes punish investment. The higher they go, the less incentive there is to invest.
Corporations shouldn't get any taxes or tax credits. Corporate taxes are double taxation & should be eliminated, as they are simply passed on as still another hidden cost to the end user. 
Once again, Obama panders to the dumbest among us. It's how the income tax was sold to the USA in the first place -- everyone was told that only "the rich" would be affected, but it certainly hasn't worked out that way.

caliq

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2015, 09:12:17 PM »
Quote
Officials said that the relatively low capital gains tax rate with a top rate of 20 percent has enabled the 400 highest-earning taxpayers with $139 million or more of income to pay an average rate of 17 percent when the top income tax rate is 35 percent.

Is this not literally a handout to those who have not earned it?  A lower tax rate on capital gains vs. earned income?

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2015, 09:19:05 PM »
Investments that qualify for capital gains have already been taxed via the income tax on earned income.

Left

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 09:48:54 PM »
So CEOs and other management who have "low" salaries but high stock compensations have been taxed for their work already? Or do you mean since it is taxed at sale, it is retroactive and applies to the entire manufacturing chain?


GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 10:07:54 PM »
So CEOs and other management who have "low" salaries but high stock compensations have been taxed for their work already? Or do you mean since it is taxed at sale, it is retroactive and applies to the entire manufacturing chain?

You are mixing apples & oranges; executives are not corporations.

Publicly traded corporations are not allowed to play a shell game of underpaying salary.  Stock options are earned by individual stars, not just executives, & must be purchased to execute. Any sales of such stock are strictly limited to four separate days out of each year, & they must be scheduled in advance so as not to benefit by any insider knowledge.

Taxes on corporations are absolutely passed through the chain of manufacturing & distribution. The higher the tax on corporations, the higher the cost of goods & services. There is no free lunch.

iamlindoro

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2015, 10:12:20 PM »
I don't see any proposals here that would harm me or my plans.  I consider my household very high earning, but we still don't make anywhere close to $500K/year.  If we did, we could likely be FI long before any proposal goes into effect.

High taxes means high earning.  Higher tax rates for higher normal income don't deter me from wanting to make more, why should higher capital gains deter me from investing?  Skip the complainypants, take a page out of MMM's book, and focus on just how ridiculously good we have it.

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 10:19:23 PM »
Having lived through the days of the 70% tax rate, 16% interest rate, & massive inflation, I have no eagerness to return to yesteryear.

ncornilsen

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 10:27:30 PM »
Not sure I understand the 7bp tax on financial institutions with assets of more than $50bn... is that could to mean a direct 7bp increase in our Vanguard fees?


GreenPen

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 11:01:09 PM »
Capital gains taxes punish investment. The higher they go, the less incentive there is to invest.

Do people really stop investing when capital gains taxes go up? What do they do with their money instead? Start a business?

bacchi

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 11:10:00 PM »
Not sure I understand the 7bp tax on financial institutions with assets of more than $50bn... is that could to mean a direct 7bp increase in our Vanguard fees?

No. The increase is for financial institutions that use a lot of leverage and it's to cover their "too big to fail" status.

innerscorecard

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 11:15:03 PM »
I don't like it, but it only targets the actually rich, not the "comfortably poor" (i.e. Mustachians).

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 11:28:58 PM »
Everyone in favor of a redistribution scheme thinks it never applies to them, but it always does, eventually.

Cressida

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 11:29:51 PM »
The middle class will be screwed.

The middle class would be screwed by a wealth tax? How so?

I say "would" instead of "will" because there will never be a wealth tax. I was recently reading The Millionaire Next Door, written in the mid-'90s, and all of the interviewed millionaires were absolutely terrified that a wealth tax would be instituted. Guess what - taxes on the rich are lower now than they were then. All of the "government-is-stealing-my-money" obsessives should just chill out.

sol

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 11:35:09 PM »
If I'm reading this right, the proposal is to raise the capital gains rate from 20% to 28% on people who make more than $457,000 per year, and leave them the same for everyone else.  The money would go towards increasing the education and child care tax credits for working families.

Is anyone here really upset about that?  Does anyone on this forum make that much money, and yet still feel that they cannot afford an 8% increase on their income above 457k?  Like if you make $457k per year your tax bill would still be the same, but if you instead make $500k per year your tax bill would go up by $3440 and that would somehow cause you financial hardship?

Hell, I am TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF THIS CHANGE.  If anyone making $500k per year can spare a few extra dollars, and we can use that money to increase the education and child care tax credits for working families, isn't that for the greater good? 

I'm sure some billionaires will get super pissed off about this because they're worried they'll somehow go broke, so they'll buy some lobbyists, or some congressmen, to kill the idea. 

Cressida

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 11:44:55 PM »
If I'm reading this right, the proposal is to raise the capital gains rate from 20% to 28% on people who make more than $457,000 per year, and leave them the same for everyone else.  The money would go towards increasing the education and child care tax credits for working families.

Is anyone here really upset about that?  Does anyone on this forum make that much money, and yet still feel that they cannot afford an 8% increase on their income above 457k?  Like if you make $457k per year your tax bill would still be the same, but if you instead make $500k per year your tax bill would go up by $3440 and that would somehow cause you financial hardship?

Hell, I am TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF THIS CHANGE.  If anyone making $500k per year can spare a few extra dollars, and we can use that money to increase the education and child care tax credits for working families, isn't that for the greater good? 

I'm sure some billionaires will get super pissed off about this because they're worried they'll somehow go broke, so they'll buy some lobbyists, or some congressmen, to kill the idea.

+100, except for the last paragraph, which is correct but does not deserve any pluses.

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 11:45:41 PM »
Of course. It's for The Children. How silly of me to be concerned about the economy.

genselecus

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 11:50:50 PM »
The rich are already paying far more than their so-called fair share. They will figure it out. The middle class will be screwed.

Is this true? I mean, it is often quoted by both sides (whether they are or are not paying their "fair" share, whatever that means), but what are the facts? Let's say the wealthiest quintile earns 80% of the income (both salary and investment income because I don't really see those two sources of income as fundamentally different), how much in taxes are they paying each year? If the top 20% makes 80% of the income, and they pay 70% of the taxes then it would be pretty easy to argue that they are, in fact, not paying their "fair" share. If the opposite is true, then we perhaps would be in agreement.

**EDIT: Just found this link (http://www.cbo.gov/publication/49440). Turns out the wealthiest Americans do, in fact, pay more in federal tax than they earn (as a percentage). I'm reading deeper to see what they consider "income."

Then the second question is, what is considered "fair"? Do we as a country believe that each person should contribute the same amount, based on income? Or do we believe that the wealthiest should contribute more, due to a reason or variety of reasons?

The biggest issue I see with our tax system is all of the credits that are received by various groups. We give huge tax breaks and incentives to people and often times those incentives are often going to people with higher incomes. For example, we give a tax incentive for mortgage interest. Who are the people with the largest mortgages? It certainly isn't the folks in the bottom quintile. As another example, the US government provides significant financial incentives for higher education (loans, state universities, etc.). Again the people taking advantage of these programs are disproportionately the wealthier Americans. I don't know whether the top earners pay their fare share. I don't even know what I really pay in taxes each year due to the crazy number of taxes and incentives that I pay/receive. Until that smoke and mirrors disappears, it is tough to have a conversation about "fair" share.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 11:56:02 PM by genselecus »

Davin

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 11:57:32 PM »
Obama is going after the so-called wealthy in his upcoming State of the Union address: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-likely-to-make-economic-recovery-a-centerpiece-of-state-of-the-union-address/2015/01/17/22ecec32-9cd6-11e4-a7ee-526210d665b4_story.html?hpid=z1.

It sounds reasonable to me.

Quote
So, has anybody built a "wealth tax" into their FI plans?

I'm never going to be in the top 0.5% anyway so... no.

Quote
And for America's youth, what do you make of a President who wants to punish those who save? You are already going to get saddled with the Nation's crushing debt. And now the President you effectively elected is going to penalize your frugal habits.

from the article: "Obama will also seek to boost private retirement savings by requiring employers without 401(k) plans to make it easier for full-time and part-time workers to save in individual retirement accounts, which could assist as many as 30 million people. The administration would provide small employers tax credits to cover costs."

That doesn't sound like punishing, that sounds like encouraging. Also, if you are worried about crushing debt, how else can you pay it down if you aren't prepared to raise revenues?

Jeremy

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2015, 12:00:14 AM »
I approve


hodedofome

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2015, 12:00:24 AM »
This whole thread is a waste of time. Obama isn't going to get anything like this passed with a Republican controlled congress. Both sides chill out :)

MDM

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2015, 12:01:26 AM »
The stereotypical conservative response "the money has been taxed already so capital gains are special" ignores the fact that money is taxed throughout the economy.  E.g., one could also say "corporations are taxed so the money they pay in salaries should not be taxed again."

The stereotypical liberal response "yeah, soak the rich - doesn't affect me" ignores the fact that government appetite rarely abates and "targeted" ideas such as the Alternative Minimum Tax tend to grow over time to affect many beyond "the 1%," or the 0.0001% mentioned in the article (top 400 earners in a country of 300 million).

Probably best not to let one's hopes or fears grow too large regarding what will be said in the SOTU address.  Proposals made by a president of one party, when the legislature is controlled by the other party, rarely pass unchanged into law.

plantingourpennies

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2015, 06:04:37 AM »
Sol nailed this, and did the math as well. It also looks like some of the money raised would go to helping set up individual retirement accounts for employees who's employers don't have 401k-this would benefit 30M people and bring them closer to financial independence and an enjoyable retirement. Isn't that exactly what the hell the FIRE movement is about?

Gizmo-you've added nothing to this thread except for some random trolling. Bring a well-reasoned response or knock it off.

If I'm reading this right, the proposal is to raise the capital gains rate from 20% to 28% on people who make more than $457,000 per year, and leave them the same for everyone else.  The money would go towards increasing the education and child care tax credits for working families.

Is anyone here really upset about that? 

GizmoTX

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2015, 06:16:16 AM »
Knock it off yourself. IRAs were initially created for but not limited to those without access to employer 401k plans -- what further "help" is needed? More entitlement?
More tax & spend is never fiscally responsible however you want to spin it.

libertarian4321

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2015, 07:08:06 AM »
Another scheme for Government to PUNISH SUCCESS and REWARD FAILURE.

Just another day in America.


Abe

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2015, 08:36:19 AM »
My parents earn more than $500k/year, and I do their taxes. I can assure you we will be alright. Thanks for asking!

surfhb

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2015, 08:52:23 AM »
Cap Gains taxes are the close to the lowest in the history of this country.   After putting a war on credit and halting a 2nd Great Depression, you bet we need to raise them!   

Let's just go back to the tax levels when old fuck Regan was president.....that'll get em on board :)

Sorry but I have no issue with paying 30-40% Cap Gains on income generating $500k or more.   A lot folks today are  completely clueless about the financial history of the U.S.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 09:05:08 AM by surfhb »

Norioch

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2015, 08:52:42 AM »
This will never pass with the current Congress, and it wouldn't affect me even if it did pass because I don't earn anything close to that amount of money (even though I feel like I make so much money I'm living in what MMM would describe as a "neverending nuclear explosion of cash"). It's hardly radical, oppressive, or even burdensome. Even at my current income I would gladly see my own taxes raised to balance the budget. I also fully support inheritance taxes (I say that without having children of my own, though I will likely be the recipient of a sizable inheritance).

StashDaddy

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2015, 08:54:55 AM »
Quote
Gizmo-you've added nothing to this thread except for some random trolling. Bring a well-reasoned response or knock it off.

In other words, "how DARE you have an opinion that is different from mine!  If you have a different viewpoint, you must be a "troll". "

Sometimes in arguments, you learn a lot from considering the others' viewpoint, instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and focusing on defending your own views.

waltworks

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 08:57:40 AM »
Yeah! Look where the last few hundred years of gov't has gotten us...man, it sucks to live in the US in 2015. I'm going to move to Somalia where I don't have to pay capital gains at all, motherfuckers!

-W

Another scheme for Government to PUNISH SUCCESS and REWARD FAILURE.

Just another day in America.

ltt

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2015, 09:01:42 AM »
I agree that I doubt this will pass Congress.

My two immediate thoughts (and I haven't read the article, just heard it on the news).  The wealthy are typically the job creators--why go after them even more?

Secondly, is the tripling of the child tax credit--do I personally like it, yes?  However, I wonder how many will see that as a way to have more children that they should not have. 

midweststache

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2015, 09:10:45 AM »
I'm down with not raising the capital gains tax if we can go back to income tax brackets that reflect the Eisenhower/Kennedy era percentages.

surfhb

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2015, 09:12:15 AM »
Yeah! Look where the last few hundred years of gov't has gotten us...man, it sucks to live in the US in 2015. I'm going to move to Somalia where I don't have to pay capital gains at all, motherfuckers!

-W

Another scheme for Government to PUNISH SUCCESS and REWARD FAILURE.

Just another day in America.

Exactly!   Furthermore,  I don't understand how people think that enormous amounts of income produced off investments alone is considered success.   More like lucky these people are paying % 15 taxes on them. 

I work my ass off everyday.    For my income to be taxed at a much higher rate than  investment income is completely absurd....and no accident btw.

skyrefuge

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2015, 09:17:56 AM »
Everyone in favor of a redistribution scheme thinks it never applies to them, but it always does, eventually.
Another scheme for Government to PUNISH SUCCESS and REWARD FAILURE.

Just another day in America.

haha, you guys are real-life pissed about something unconnected to real life. Letting yourself be trolled so easily is pretty antimustachian, you know. I can't imagine how freaked out you get when watching a disaster movie: "OHMYGOD the world is ending!!! And everyone is just sitting in this theater like they don't care!!!" "uh, it's not real dude."

In addition to raising the capital gains rate, Obama has also proposed raising income taxes on those making more $250,000 in his SOTU. Every year. Since 2009. Which includes two years when his own party was in control of Congress. And it never happened. Maybe you've just done so well at following MMM's Low-Information Diet that you're unaware of the current composition of Congress?

(ok, in 2013, a 39.6% bracket was finally added for those making more than $450k, and ACA taxes have been added on those making $250k, but those are barely related to SOTU blathering).

caliq

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2015, 09:23:44 AM »
I agree that I doubt this will pass Congress.

My two immediate thoughts (and I haven't read the article, just heard it on the news).  The wealthy are typically the job creators--why go after them even more?

Secondly, is the tripling of the child tax credit--do I personally like it, yes?  However, I wonder how many will see that as a way to have more children that they should not have.

The wealthy may be business owners and/or investors, but they are not necessarily job creators.

There comes a point in wealth accumulation that one no longer needs or wants to increase their spending.  Even for the most non-mustachian person, this point exists.  Any wealth increase above and beyond that (lifetime amount) point is only for the purpose of seeing a bigger number in the bank account. 

If you give one guy a billion dollars, he will likely spend less, across fewer industries, than if you gave 1000 people a million dollars each.  He would buy maybe 5 or 10 new cars, if he was into obscenely flashing his wealth; each of those 1000 people would probably buy a new car.  He would maybe buy a couple houses; they would each buy a new house, hire a cleaning lady, etc.  If you buy into the classic line about spending stimulating the economy, then I don't know that the obscenely wealthy are truly the job creators. 

waltworks

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2015, 09:32:11 AM »
The economy is an ecosystem of sorts, and everyone involved in it in any capacity is a "job creator" - even a fry cook at Taco Bell (microwave cook?). That guy produces a service and then goes and spends his money on other goods and services, which enables someone ELSE to earn more/spend more, etc. We all can trade our unique skills with each other.

Our family is solidly in the top 10% of NW in the US and probably in the top 5%. Yet I would support more social safety/family expenditures on the part of the government, and pay more taxes to do so. Why? I feel that such spending makes ME WEALTHIER by allowing everyone else to live up to their economic potential more easily.

-W
I agree that I doubt this will pass Congress.

My two immediate thoughts (and I haven't read the article, just heard it on the news).  The wealthy are typically the job creators--why go after them even more?

Secondly, is the tripling of the child tax credit--do I personally like it, yes?  However, I wonder how many will see that as a way to have more children that they should not have.

starguru

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2015, 10:13:45 AM »
Everyone in favor of a redistribution scheme thinks it never applies to them, but it always does, eventually.
Another scheme for Government to PUNISH SUCCESS and REWARD FAILURE.

Just another day in America.

haha, you guys are real-life pissed about something unconnected to real life. Letting yourself be trolled so easily is pretty antimustachian, you know. I can't imagine how freaked out you get when watching a disaster movie: "OHMYGOD the world is ending!!! And everyone is just sitting in this theater like they don't care!!!" "uh, it's not real dude."

In addition to raising the capital gains rate, Obama has also proposed raising income taxes on those making more $250,000 in his SOTU. Every year. Since 2009. Which includes two years when his own party was in control of Congress. And it never happened. Maybe you've just done so well at following MMM's Low-Information Diet that you're unaware of the current composition of Congress?

(ok, in 2013, a 39.6% bracket was finally added for those making more than $450k, and ACA taxes have been added on those making $250k, but those are barely related to SOTU blathering).

The problem I have with raising taxes is that this president has already raised taxes.  TWICE.  And is still calling for more tax increases.  At some point enough is enough.  All the polemic is utterly idiotic.  The notion of appealing to the idea of "fair share" which is by definition subjective, is demagoguery at its worst.  It is a notion designed to scapegoat a class of people, nothing more. It appeals to peoples' sense that they themselves shouldn't have to do something; there is something wrong with what someone else is doing.

One of the central ideas of MMM is that people by and large spend too much, are caught up in consumerism to their own detriment.  Peoples' hard earned cash would be better served invested generating more wealth.  If you want to help the middle class, give everyone a lesson on compound interest.  Require savings like they do in Australia.  Once can build over $1MM simply by saving $10/day over the course of a normal career.  Most intelligent people shouldn't need any help from the government.

Even more disappointing is those on this board agreeing with the idea of tax increases on "the wealthy" while they themselves find ways to game the system and abuse programs meant for truly poor people.  Amazing millionaires trying to get free college, subsidized food assistance, EITC...it's the height of deceptiveness, hypocrisy,  selfishness, and immorality.  Truly disappointing.


surfhb

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2015, 10:23:20 AM »
Everyone in favor of a redistribution scheme thinks it never applies to them, but it always does, eventually.
Another scheme for Government to PUNISH SUCCESS and REWARD FAILURE.

Just another day in America.

haha, you guys are real-life pissed about something unconnected to real life. Letting yourself be trolled so easily is pretty antimustachian, you know. I can't imagine how freaked out you get when watching a disaster movie: "OHMYGOD the world is ending!!! And everyone is just sitting in this theater like they don't care!!!" "uh, it's not real dude."

In addition to raising the capital gains rate, Obama has also proposed raising income taxes on those making more $250,000 in his SOTU. Every year. Since 2009. Which includes two years when his own party was in control of Congress. And it never happened. Maybe you've just done so well at following MMM's Low-Information Diet that you're unaware of the current composition of Congress?

(ok, in 2013, a 39.6% bracket was finally added for those making more than $450k, and ACA taxes have been added on those making $250k, but those are barely related to SOTU blathering).

The problem I have with raising taxes is that this president has already raised taxes.  TWICE.  And is still calling for more tax increases.  At some point enough is enough.  All the polemic is utterly idiotic.  The notion of appealing to the idea of "fair share" which is by definition subjective, is demagoguery at its worst.  It is a notion designed to scapegoat a class of people, nothing more. It appeals to peoples' sense that they themselves shouldn't have to do something; there is something wrong with what someone else is doing.

One of the central ideas of MMM is that people by and large spend too much, are caught up in consumerism to their own detriment.  Peoples' hard earned cash would be better served invested generating more wealth.  If you want to help the middle class, give everyone a lesson on compound interest.  Require savings like they do in Australia.  Once can build over $1MM simply by saving $10/day over the course of a normal career.  Most intelligent people shouldn't need any help from the government.

Even more disappointing is those on this board agreeing with the idea of tax increases on "the wealthy" while they themselves find ways to game the system and abuse programs meant for truly poor people.  Amazing millionaires trying to get free college, subsidized food assistance, EITC...it's the height of deceptiveness, hypocrisy,  selfishness, and immorality.  Truly disappointing.

I think you need to study and track the history of past taxation rates and prosperity in this country my friend :)

Futhermore, where on this site have you seen folks abusing programs meant for the poor and hear offered advice to take advantage of them?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:30:36 AM by surfhb »

waltworks

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2015, 10:24:02 AM »
And yet, societies with effective central governments, taxation, public works, etc have outcompeted anarchism and pure individual liberty for thousands of years!

-W

Once can build over $1MM simply by saving $10/day over the course of a normal career.  Most intelligent people shouldn't need any help from the government.

Norioch

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2015, 10:27:52 AM »
At some point enough is enough.

Yes, at some point enough is enough. That point is not anywhere even remotely close to current taxation levels.

Also, it's not at all hypocritical to vocally support social safety nets and then use those safety nets when you legally qualify for them. Self-serving, perhaps, but not hypocritical.

caliq

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2015, 10:29:13 AM »
Even more disappointing is those on this board agreeing with the idea of tax increases on "the wealthy" while they themselves find ways to game the system and abuse programs meant for truly poor people.  Amazing millionaires trying to get free college, subsidized food assistance, EITC...it's the height of deceptiveness, hypocrisy,  selfishness, and immorality.  Truly disappointing.


Whoaaaa, who is trying to get social assistance programs?  That's a huge leap there bud.  Food stamps are asset-tested IIRC.  EITC and "free college" could only possibly be legally attained when disclosing a huge amount of financial information, so I highly doubt anyone who is truly wealthy is benefiting from those programs. 

Also, don't oil and gas companies get ridiculous subsidies?  Why is that not immoral, but the same thing on a personal scale is?

Capsu78

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2015, 10:36:38 AM »
I am old enough to remember when envy was considered a sin, and not a political party platform.

starguru

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2015, 10:46:54 AM »
Even more disappointing is those on this board agreeing with the idea of tax increases on "the wealthy" while they themselves find ways to game the system and abuse programs meant for truly poor people.  Amazing millionaires trying to get free college, subsidized food assistance, EITC...it's the height of deceptiveness, hypocrisy,  selfishness, and immorality.  Truly disappointing.


Whoaaaa, who is trying to get social assistance programs?  That's a huge leap there bud.  Food stamps are asset-tested IIRC.  EITC and "free college" could only possibly be legally attained when disclosing a huge amount of financial information, so I highly doubt anyone who is truly wealthy is benefiting from those programs. 

Also, don't oil and gas companies get ridiculous subsidies?  Why is that not immoral, but the same thing on a personal scale is?

I don't really like calling people out by name, but those threads definitely exist.  Here is one recent thread that comes to mind, that covers everything but food stamps. 

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage-early/.

Yes oil and gas companies do get ridiculous subsidies, but clearly I was writing about increasing personal income taxes.  Personal and corporate taxes are two different beasts altogether.

starguru

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2015, 10:50:32 AM »
At some point enough is enough.

Yes, at some point enough is enough. That point is not anywhere even remotely close to current taxation levels.

Also, it's not at all hypocritical to vocally support social safety nets and then use those safety nets when you legally qualify for them. Self-serving, perhaps, but not hypocritical.

It is certainly hypocritical to call for someone else to pay more taxes while using a public assistance program (i.e those tax dollars) meant for truly poor people when one is not truly poor. 

caliq

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Re: Targeting the Wealthy: MMM Meets Politics
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2015, 11:04:21 AM »
Even more disappointing is those on this board agreeing with the idea of tax increases on "the wealthy" while they themselves find ways to game the system and abuse programs meant for truly poor people.  Amazing millionaires trying to get free college, subsidized food assistance, EITC...it's the height of deceptiveness, hypocrisy,  selfishness, and immorality.  Truly disappointing.


Whoaaaa, who is trying to get social assistance programs?  That's a huge leap there bud.  Food stamps are asset-tested IIRC.  EITC and "free college" could only possibly be legally attained when disclosing a huge amount of financial information, so I highly doubt anyone who is truly wealthy is benefiting from those programs. 

Also, don't oil and gas companies get ridiculous subsidies?  Why is that not immoral, but the same thing on a personal scale is?

I don't really like calling people out by name, but those threads definitely exist.  Here is one recent thread that comes to mind, that covers everything but food stamps. 

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/should-i-pay-off-my-mortgage-early/.

Yes oil and gas companies do get ridiculous subsidies, but clearly I was writing about increasing personal income taxes.  Personal and corporate taxes are two different beasts altogether.

FAFSA qualifies students mainly for federal student loans, which is clearly stated in that post.  If your family income is less than 20k per year you may qualify for grants up to $5500, on a sliding scale.  College is unaffordable out of pocket for the vast majority of people, and FAFSA is not only meant for the truly poor.  In fact, college admissions officers emphasize to everyone how important it is to fill out the FAFSA, even if you think you make too much money to qualify for any aid. 

Tax optimization happens at every level.  It's not illegal or immoral.