Talk me out of lifestyle inflation

[yachi]

I'm at FIRE levels if I can just keep my lifestyle at bay.  The latest thing that's tempting is a mountain cabin near rail trails and water.  My extended family vacations at such a cabin once a year, and we recently rented a vacation cabin with my spouses family and had a great time.  I have in my FIRE budget enough spending to rent such a cabin, or our portion of a cabin 2 or 3 times per year.  But I want to own one to:
Keep my own type of cooking things in it.
Use it on weekends (or weekdays when FIRE)
Share it with family (some extended family don't have much means for vacations)

I reread the blogpost about cabins, and I agree it would mean an automatic 50% average vacancy rate (we would either sleep a our house, or sleep at the cabin, but not both).  And we really do have lots of similar activities in the immediate area were our house is.

I want to FIRE while my kids are young because they can use as much time as I have to give.  I'm seeing coworkers and parents retire in older ages, and it seems a waste since they could have used the time better when their children were little (I realize they didn't have the money to do this until now, so it's not a fair comparison).  Now they aren't all near grandchildren and are spending their days fishing and watching TV.  I guess I'm saying if I need to return to work after children are out of the house and life gets boring, I'd be OK with that.

[brandon1827]

I wish I could talk you out of it...but I can't because I'm lusting after something similar. If it's a good enough investment, there is potential for rental income, you can find the right deal/price, and it fits into your budget I would be of a mind to do it personally. Sorry...I'm no help at all, lol.

[Morning Glory]

Can you sell your primary home and live in the cabin full-time?

[Metalcat]

Was there a question in there that I missed?

You're considering buying a cabin, and want input on whether or not others have found the purchase worth it or not???

Regardless, I'll say what I always say in these threads. You've either come here to be talked into it or talked out of it.

So which is it?

[dougules]

What are some things you like about your current house?  If you're FIRE, you could just buy a cabin and sell your old place, so what is it that draws you back to where you live now?

[yachi]

I guess I didn't actually include a question.  Basically, Is it worth it to retire early if there are things you lust after that you could achieve by working longer, or is your energy better spent making peace with my status in life?

It could be a cabin, but also a fast car, or larger house.

I like the proximity of stores and restaurants to my current house, and the school district is much better than in the mountains, internet is way way faster in our current house.  I'd say maybe the politics are better near my current house.  In the mountains a grocery run is at least a 30 minute drive away vs a 5 minute drive at home.  While outdoor recreation is really close, everything else is not.  We basically live in the area we do because of work, so it makes sense to investigate where else would be fun to live.

[simonsez]

How many options are you considering - 2 or 3?
Option 1: Don't buy it, continue to rent a place once or twice a year, no change to financial plans
Option 2: Buy it and only yourself/family/friends use it, thus changing your financial plans (i.e. needing to work longer, etc.)
Option 3: Buy it and rent it out enough to not change financial situation much from current plans

If you were to buy, would you keep it in the family or sell it down the road to simplify things as you get older?

My wife's parents have a family property and I do with my extended family as well.  We go about 10-15x a year to both combined (other family members also utilize both properties at the same and at different times).  Neither are rentals and the FIRE budget accounts for the properties.  It's something important to me to maintain and enjoy even if they're not income-producing assets, especially as both properties were godsends (more than normal) last year during the pandemic as places to escape to.  Both properties are within a manageable 2.5 hours away from our primary house, albeit in opposite directions.  I love being able to get away and it not be that bad of a day of travel, plenty of time for leisure and chores at the properties and conversely, not too bad of a drive to get home so that you don't feel stressed about an upcoming work week/school week/etc.  Distance would be a major consideration for me if you are serious about buying this property (either to own or to own & rent).  If the property you're considering checks off all the boxes except the distance is a little longer than you'd like, I'd think twice about pulling the trigger.  YMMV.

Lastly, if your carefully curated retirement plan didn't have mountain home as a line item, would you saying 'Yes' here lead to other expenses you weren't planning?  Better to figure out what's important to you and make sure you stay on track.  Plans always change but this is not a small life change you're considering, this is major.

[LifeHappens]

What would the true annual carrying cost be on a mountain place? Even if you bought for cash, think about utilities, taxes, insurance and maintenance costs. How does that compare to the nightly cost of a rental?

If you owned a place you would either be going there to mow the lawn and clean, or you would be hiring a service for that. How much time would that take vs. the time spent enjoying the place?

It seems to me you only want a cabin for leisure, but owning a second property is anything but leisurely. I say keep renting unless you have a much stronger reason to buy.

[reeshau]

You are talking about this in the present tense.  Is this something you must do immediately?  In addition to the ongoing costs, EVERYONE has been having similar thoughts for a year, so the prices on this type of property have skyrocketed, and may not be sustainable.  Buying now would add buying at a peak to the list of woes.

Do you have any part-time gigs or hobbies in mind for your retirement plan?  You could use a cabin as a motivation to develop that, and buy when you have the money and the housing market experiences some downturn in the future.  You would still have to fund or perform the ongoing maintenance.  And definitely check your taxes, as you won't get your homestead exemption.  (Or, you would lose it on your current home; either or)  Tourist areas maintain local populations, but with outsized amenities, by passing a lot of taxes that are subject to a homestead exemption; It's the rich visitors with second homes that fund it all.

[Freedomin5]

I guess I didn't actually include a question.  Basically, Is it worth it to retire early if there are things you lust after that you could achieve by working longer, or is your energy better spent making peace with my status in life?

I don’t think anyone can answer that question for you.

We bought our cottage 4 years ago. To us, it was worth it to split the cost of owning a cottage with other family members, with the realization that it would add another year or so to our working life. As expats, it was worth it to have our own “home” to return to each summer, though COVID has thrown a monkey wrench in those plans the past two years. The best-laid plans and all that, right? In addition, I currently like my job and don’t want to quit. It’s all about building the best life possible and living your best life now. I don’t think your question is an either/or question. I have the things I want that make me happy now, and I’ve made peace with my status in life.

[darknight]

Owning some mountain property will never go out of style. If you are able to hustle it a little bit and rent it out on some of the weekends you don't use it it might come out even. Right now (and probably for the next long while) recreation is going to really be in smaller groups away from people. I think VRBO etc, rent it out on craigslist, make a simple website for it.. It might not "pay for itself" but could get you close to breaking even for awhile.

[TheFrenchCat]

We live in a similar area (mountain lake), but only because we're so close to so much family.  We're on the same street as my daughter's grandparents, great-grandmother and three sets of great aunts and uncles, plus cousins.  If there wasn't so much family right there, there's no way the downsides would be worth it to live here full time.  We're so far from everything, though not quite as far from the grocery store-it's a 15 minute drive for us.  We lose power so much, like once a week or more in the summer; we're strongly considering getting a whole house generator.  Plus there's lake association politics to deal with. 

If you are just considering this as a second property, I'd personally prioritize the time with your kids.  We're not close to FIRE, but I only work part time from home, mostly so I can be home with our daughter.  And my husband has a great job where he's home only an hour after she gets back from school.  If your kids are in school, maybe just downshift to part time if you really want to save for more things?  But it still sounds like too much hassle and wasted resources to live in part-time to me. 

[WSUCoug1994]

We have had a Lake Cabin/Second Home since 2013.  It is a three hour drive from our main house and it represents about 4% of our Net Worth.  We are unable to rent it out due to both HOA and County regulations about short-term rentals (nothing less than 30 days).  We use it more and more as the kids have gotten older (now 5 and 3) and it is their favorite place in the world.  My 3 year old asks every morning when he wakes up if we are going to the lake today...lol. 

Every big holiday during the year it is packed with 12-20 family members, most of my kids 6 cousins want to celebrate their birthdays there and my parents who live in another state will usually spend 1-2 months there a year.  Our nuclear family will use it 10-15 weekends a year.  We will often "vacation" there and spend two weeks at a time (we are doing that starting this weekend).  It is a family-up kind of place and it is very safe and there is a lot to do in the area.  It is 45 minutes from Yosemite and there is a winter ski resort 45 minutes away as well. 

As Biggie said "more money more problems" - you have to have two of everything - I mean everything or you are going to haul crap back and forth for the rest of your life.  Everything in the house is second hand which is great but now you have another house to maintain - appliances, roof, blah blah blah.  Also being 3 hours away - we can't just run over there to check on the house or if it has a water leak (we have water leak sensors) or something we can't just hop over and get it fixed.  It is also a second house to clean - which is my least favorite part of having this house.

All that being said we absolutely love it - I would live there full time if my wife wouldn't leave me because of it.  During Covid it was amazing to have somewhere else to go.  The overhead is pretty low overall, we paid cash for it and the utilities and insurance are pretty low.  The house has almost doubled in value since we bought it 8 years ago which certainly helps.  Overall, for our family, it is a great investment - I know second homes aren't for everyone but this is one of the best decisions we have made for OUR family.

[dougules]

The answer is going to be very personal to you as to how much happiness the luxury will bring you, and what you have to do to get it. 

How much time will you actually spend at that cabin honestly 10 years from now after the new has worn off?  The nerd in me says add up the cost of the cabin along with all the other costs of owning it like maintenance, taxes, transportation back and forth, etc over all the decades you plan to own it.  Then add up how many days you think you'll actually stay there for the rest of your life.  Then divide A by B and see what dollar figure you come up with.  Is it still worth it?

Then do the same for your current house because it sounds like you generally are happy spending most of your time where you are now.  You could just move to the mountains altogether, so really think about what you appreciate about living where you are now. 

The other side of the equation is what are your feelings on your working life now?  Are you loving it, are you miserable, or somewhere in between?  If you love your working life, then the answer is fairly easy.  If you're absolutely miserable, the answer is fairly easy, too.  If you're somewhere in between, then you have to really understand what the trade-offs are for you personally and weigh them. 

Then one other thing that may or may not mean something to you, if you own a cabin in the woods, it's no longer fully the woods but your second yard and along with the roads leading to it.  You're taking up space that could be actual wilderness.  Will you enjoy it enough that it's worth increasing your footprint on the world? 

[ixtap]

In the boating world, people either love living aboard or hate it. I imagine the second house world is very similar.

It is such a pain to have to pack up groceries and laundry for each trip, even if you have everything else there. Depending on the age and condition, you may be just as likely to show up and find a project that needs done as you are to do the fun stuff with the kids.

But if you absolutely love it and the kids love it, you will deal with quite a few inconveniences and truthfully tell everyone that it is the greatest decision you ever made in your life.

That being said, if I were suddenly inspired right now to buy, I would probably just tell myself it was FOMO and move on with my original plan.

[sisto]

We have had a Lake Cabin/Second Home since 2013.  It is a three hour drive from our main house and it represents about 4% of our Net Worth.  We are unable to rent it out due to both HOA and County regulations about short-term rentals (nothing less than 30 days).  We use it more and more as the kids have gotten older (now 5 and 3) and it is their favorite place in the world.  My 3 year old asks every morning when he wakes up if we are going to the lake today...lol. 

Every big holiday during the year it is packed with 12-20 family members, most of my kids 6 cousins want to celebrate their birthdays there and my parents who live in another state will usually spend 1-2 months there a year.  Our nuclear family will use it 10-15 weekends a year.  We will often "vacation" there and spend two weeks at a time (we are doing that starting this weekend).  It is a family-up kind of place and it is very safe and there is a lot to do in the area.  It is 45 minutes from Yosemite and there is a winter ski resort 45 minutes away as well. 

As Biggie said "more money more problems" - you have to have two of everything - I mean everything or you are going to haul crap back and forth for the rest of your life.  Everything in the house is second hand which is great but now you have another house to maintain - appliances, roof, blah blah blah.  Also being 3 hours away - we can't just run over there to check on the house or if it has a water leak (we have water leak sensors) or something we can't just hop over and get it fixed.  It is also a second house to clean - which is my least favorite part of having this house.

All that being said we absolutely love it - I would live there full time if my wife wouldn't leave me because of it.  During Covid it was amazing to have somewhere else to go.  The overhead is pretty low overall, we paid cash for it and the utilities and insurance are pretty low.  The house has almost doubled in value since we bought it 8 years ago which certainly helps.  Overall, for our family, it is a great investment - I know second homes aren't for everyone but this is one of the best decisions we have made for OUR family.

It must be in Tahoe. I love it there.

[WSUCoug1994]

I wish - we couldn't afford the Tahoe area - Lake Tulloch in Copperopolis CA :)

[Metalcat]

I guess I didn't actually include a question.  Basically, Is it worth it to retire early if there are things you lust after that you could achieve by working longer, or is your energy better spent making peace with my status in life?

It could be a cabin, but also a fast car, or larger house.

I like the proximity of stores and restaurants to my current house, and the school district is much better than in the mountains, internet is way way faster in our current house.  I'd say maybe the politics are better near my current house.  In the mountains a grocery run is at least a 30 minute drive away vs a 5 minute drive at home.  While outdoor recreation is really close, everything else is not.  We basically live in the area we do because of work, so it makes sense to investigate where else would be fun to live.

Then it's a 100% personal question.

Only you can know if you will regret not working more to buy a cabin, but as you said, if you choose not to, you could also go back and work more.

But no one can really help you decide what matters more to you: free time now or a cabin.

[rmorris50]

Watch one of those cabin in the woods horror movies. That may help talk ya out of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SunnyDays]

There will always be something you're lusting after.  If you buy the cabin, what will it be next?  And after that?  Regardless of what the item is, you  have to decide if you want to keep working longer or not?  That's the real decision.

[yachi]

We have had a Lake Cabin/Second Home since 2013.  It is a three hour drive from our main house and it represents about 4% of our Net Worth.  We are unable to rent it out due to both HOA and County regulations about short-term rentals (nothing less than 30 days).  We use it more and more as the kids have gotten older (now 5 and 3) and it is their favorite place in the world.  My 3 year old asks every morning when he wakes up if we are going to the lake today...lol. 

Every big holiday during the year it is packed with 12-20 family members, most of my kids 6 cousins want to celebrate their birthdays there and my parents who live in another state will usually spend 1-2 months there a year.  Our nuclear family will use it 10-15 weekends a year.  We will often "vacation" there and spend two weeks at a time (we are doing that starting this weekend).  It is a family-up kind of place and it is very safe and there is a lot to do in the area.  It is 45 minutes from Yosemite and there is a winter ski resort 45 minutes away as well. 

As Biggie said "more money more problems" - you have to have two of everything - I mean everything or you are going to haul crap back and forth for the rest of your life.  Everything in the house is second hand which is great but now you have another house to maintain - appliances, roof, blah blah blah.  Also being 3 hours away - we can't just run over there to check on the house or if it has a water leak (we have water leak sensors) or something we can't just hop over and get it fixed.  It is also a second house to clean - which is my least favorite part of having this house.

All that being said we absolutely love it - I would live there full time if my wife wouldn't leave me because of it.  During Covid it was amazing to have somewhere else to go.  The overhead is pretty low overall, we paid cash for it and the utilities and insurance are pretty low.  The house has almost doubled in value since we bought it 8 years ago which certainly helps.  Overall, for our family, it is a great investment - I know second homes aren't for everyone but this is one of the best decisions we have made for OUR family.

WSUCoug, this is exactly how I imagine it.  A place where extended family can visit to get away too, and cousins get together.  Most of the time it's awesome, some of the time I'm like "well, we want to own kayaks, would we need to keep a second set at the cabin?"  A suitable cabin would probably be in the 10% range of our Net Worth.

[yachi]

There will always be something you're lusting after.  If you buy the cabin, what will it be next?  And after that?  Regardless of what the item is, you  have to decide if you want to keep working longer or not?  That's the real decision.

Maybe a boat next, and then a beach house!  And then a bigger boat!  Some of the desire comes from a realization that we rented a really awesome cabin this summer and didn't know how rare it was.  We were able to have my in-law's dogs, and everyone had a comfortable place to sleep, and it was quite centrally located for everyone to travel to.  Similar cabins seem to have gotten all booked up for next year, and most don't allow pets.

Thinking about that part driving some of the decision, maybe I should start looking at it as FOMO like ixtap said. 

The "you're developing the very wilderness you love" angle dougules brought up is interesting too.  Even if I buy an existing cabin, it encourages or forces the next guy to build a new cabin in the wilderness because the one I purchased isn't available.

[ChpBstrd]

1) If you go this route, you will have exactly one type of vacation forever: the cabin. It will consume your entire vacation budget with taxes, repairs, utilities, landscaping, insurance, etc, and you won't want to "waste" this locked-in spending by doing something else. That means no beach vacations, no city vacations, no foreign trips, no cruises, no camping, etc. Your "vacations" will be monotonous drives back and forth between houses where you do the same things you've always done.

2) If you'd like to take more of your own things, add a cargo tray and box to the back of your car.

3) If you want to use it on whatever days of the week you want, and you are post-FIRE, why not move into it permanently and ditch the regular house? Note that such a decision might impact the type of cabin you purchase. That is, for a permanent home you might want more space or other specifics. You don't want to get into a position where, post-FIRE, you are paying expenses for a cabin that is not quite right to move into full-time, plus a house you don't really like.

4) You can share a cabin with the extended family right now. Just tell them you're renting a cabin for the week and they are welcome to join in for free. Also, you might be surprised how little interest the cabin provokes in your extended family if they are not already big fans of cabin-based vacations. They might just tell you "thanks for the invite, but we think we'll go to Disney World and spend $5,000 that week".

5) If the AirBNB or VRBO rates per day seem high, contact the owner to see if they would accept a negotiated rate for an entire week or weeks at a time. Much of their cost involves hiring housekeepers, so built into their pricing is the cost of having the place professionally cleaned three times a week or more. If they only have to clean it once this week...

6) Offsetting the pleasant feelings of owning the cabin will be anxieties about things such as forest fires, lawsuits, insurance hikes, broken pipes, vandalism / theft, neighbors clearcutting, road washouts, landslides, etc. Keep the whole picture in mind when visualizing yourself with a cabin and all its hazards.

[JLee]

Keep in mind if you ever wanted to move out of the area, you'd end up with two houses to sell instead of one.

How much cooking stuff do you really need to bring with you on a weekend cabin trip?  It'd be much cheaper to buy a storage tote and duplicates of all the cooking stuff you want to have, and just leave it in your attic or something than it would be to buy a cabin just to store it all in when you're not using it.

[WSUCoug1994]

1) If you go this route, you will have exactly one type of vacation forever: the cabin. It will consume your entire vacation budget with taxes, repairs, utilities, landscaping, insurance, etc, and you won't want to "waste" this locked-in spending by doing something else. That means no beach vacations, no city vacations, no foreign trips, no cruises, no camping, etc. Your "vacations" will be monotonous drives back and forth between houses where you do the same things you've always done.

A valid point - but this is not how we budget our vacations.  We have a separate fund for the regular travel that we want to do as a family.  The Lake House and Vacations are separate items on our household P&L.

[lhamo]

I guess I didn't actually include a question.  Basically, Is it worth it to retire early if there are things you lust after that you could achieve by working longer, or is your energy better spent making peace with my status in life?

It could be a cabin, but also a fast car, or larger house.

Personally I would vote for giving a lower-cost FIRE lifestyle a 3-12 month trial before deciding to commit to something that dramatically increases cost of living.

You may find, once you are not juggling a day job and have the option of doing more fun stuff in your area during the weekdays when trails and parks are uncrowded, that the desire to "escape" is much reduced.

Or you could try out living in a more remote area for a more extended period of time and find that you enjoy it and would prefer to own there (at lower cost) and have urban escapes be your way to change things up.   If your urban house is in a convenient area you might find using it as a short-term rental while blocking out certain periods for your family to use it means you get the best of both worlds while not breaking your housing budget.

You may find that you don't enjoy being FT FIREd, or that you really do want to own two homes, and decide to get a part-time or seasonal job.

But for me, I would try out the FIREd life first and then see where you stand in terms of satisfaction with life and your spending patterns.  We bought a house in the city limits but in a quite area with a lake view and a large yard, and just half a block from the major regional bike trail.  We try to do all our errands and day hikes/bikes, etc. during the week to avoid the crowds.  And then our own home is our weekend hideaway. 

[yachi]

I guess I didn't actually include a question.  Basically, Is it worth it to retire early if there are things you lust after that you could achieve by working longer, or is your energy better spent making peace with my status in life?

It could be a cabin, but also a fast car, or larger house.

Personally I would vote for giving a lower-cost FIRE lifestyle a 3-12 month trial before deciding to commit to something that dramatically increases cost of living.

You may find, once you are not juggling a day job and have the option of doing more fun stuff in your area during the weekdays when trails and parks are uncrowded, that the desire to "escape" is much reduced.

Or you could try out living in a more remote area for a more extended period of time and find that you enjoy it and would prefer to own there (at lower cost) and have urban escapes be your way to change things up.   If your urban house is in a convenient area you might find using it as a short-term rental while blocking out certain periods for your family to use it means you get the best of both worlds while not breaking your housing budget.

You may find that you don't enjoy being FT FIREd, or that you really do want to own two homes, and decide to get a part-time or seasonal job.

But for me, I would try out the FIREd life first and then see where you stand in terms of satisfaction with life and your spending patterns.  We bought a house in the city limits but in a quite area with a lake view and a large yard, and just half a block from the major regional bike trail.  We try to do all our errands and day hikes/bikes, etc. during the week to avoid the crowds.  And then our own home is our weekend hideaway.

This may work well.  We actually have 4 sizeable lakes within a 30-minute drive of home (it seems wild when I put it that way), and a very good rail trail within a 15-minute drive, and some rivers nearby.  There's a switch from "what do I need to do at home: laundry, cleaning, tidying, etc." to "ok, I'm on vacation, it's time to relax" that happens when I'm in a different place on vacation.  Maybe this won't happen if I owned a cabin - it would need maintenance and repair work sometimes.  I'll need to find some mental aids to help with seeing my current home as a recreational place for at least part of the week.  I think my spouse has been successful at this with taking the kids on hikes during the days in the summer.

[roomtempmayo]

I'm another bad person to talk you out of it.  Part of our medium-term plan is to buy a cabin.

Yes, as noted above, going to the cabin becomes your one vacation.  But, if you want vacations with extended family, kids, dogs, etcetera, you're not going to comfortably travel much of anywhere anyways.  Without a cabin, would everyone pack up and meet in Paris next year?  My family wouldn't.  If you want (extended) family-oriented vacations, there's probably little or no opportunity cost.

Cabins tend to become intergenerational family anchors.  Sometimes that's not what people want, but it sounds like you're hoping for a family gathering space.  Nothing is going to get people to visit you like being the one with a nice cabin in the woods.

On the financial side, everyone I know under the age of 45 who has bought their own cabin is somehow hacking it.  Around here, a nice 3+ bedroom place on the water costs $300-500k and rents for $3000-5000/week in the summer.  Renting it for 4-6 weeks in the summer can cover most or all of the costs.  A few friends are renting their cabins out more, and even with hiring a local manager they're in the black while also having use of the cabin 6+ months a year.

The drawback, and also part of what holds vacation property prices down, is that the financing terms aren't as good as a primary home.  Talking with folks who have bought recently, there's an absolute minimum of 20% down, and the interest rate will probably be 2% or so higher than your mortgage.  You may end up tying up a bunch of capital in a cabin.

My perspective is skewed by not aspiring to early retirement, but I think there are much dumber ways to inflate your lifestyle than owning a vacation home.

[yachi]

I'm at FIRE levels if I can just keep my lifestyle at bay.  The latest thing that's tempting is a mountain cabin near rail trails and water.  My extended family vacations at such a cabin once a year, and we recently rented a vacation cabin with my spouses family and had a great time.  I have in my FIRE budget enough spending to rent such a cabin, or our portion of a cabin 2 or 3 times per year.  But I want to own one to:
Keep my own type of cooking things in it.
Use it on weekends (or weekdays when FIRE)
Share it with family (some extended family don't have much means for vacations)

I reread the blogpost about cabins, and I agree it would mean an automatic 50% average vacancy rate (we would either sleep a our house, or sleep at the cabin, but not both).  And we really do have lots of similar activities in the immediate area were our house is.

I want to FIRE while my kids are young because they can use as much time as I have to give.  I'm seeing coworkers and parents retire in older ages, and it seems a waste since they could have used the time better when their children were little (I realize they didn't have the money to do this until now, so it's not a fair comparison).  Now they aren't all near grandchildren and are spending their days fishing and watching TV. I guess I'm saying if I need to return to work after children are out of the house and life gets boring, I'd be OK with that.

I think you've answered your pwn question above. Is it more important to you to have the free time now to spend with your kids, spouse, family and activities you love then it is to work much longer to buy a cabin for some future vision (that may or may not happen). The trade offs are free time if you FIRE now verses more stuff/cabin/boat/Etc.. that may (or may not) enhance your life later when you do finally FIRE. Only you can decide if that trade off is worth it.

If I were in your shoes I'd stick with my original FIRE plan and enjoy my life with my kids now rather then put it off for some idealized vision of what Your life will be like if you worked longer to buy a cabin.  Your kids get older while you work longer and may be much less  interested in spending time with you in a cabin far from their own friends and activities. You may find yourself spending your free time alone doing chores on a cabin once you do FIRE instead of enjoying the things you could do near home if you choose to FIRE now.

The bolded part is the perfect visual to counter by rose-colored dreams and help me stick to my frugal guns.  You're right that at a certain age my children will want to keep working their summer jobs, or spend time with their friends.  I stopped going on family camping trips in late high school, and during college summers.
Others have mentioned being able to rent the cabin, and that would fit just fine with retirement as I imagine it - I could visit it on a Tuesday and Wednesday to clean between weekend renters, or fix broken things, maybe pay a local person to mow around it.  But I'm not sure I'm up for that yet.

[Dicey]

Hey @WSUCoug1994, we have a similarly oppressive HOA, and little thing called Coachella. People skirted the 30 day rule by renting their places out for a "month". They can't help it of people chose to leave early. Basically, it means you can only rent it out once per month, which means you could still rent it out several times per year.

I get that renters have a different set of expectations and that could be a hassle. Just thought I'd share this clever adaptation of otherwise evilly subversive HOA rules.

OP, one more thing to consider is if your relatives would feel entitled to use your place and not pitch in. Plenty of stories along those lines.

[WSUCoug1994]

Hey @WSUCoug1994, we have a similarly oppressive HOA, and little thing called Coachella. People skirted the 30 day rule by renting their places out for a "month". They can't help it of people chose to leave early. Basically, it means you can only rent it out once per month, which means you could still rent it out several times per year.

I get that renters have a different set of expectations and that could be a hassle. Just thought I'd share this clever adaptation of otherwise evilly subversive HOA rules.

OP, one more thing to consider is if your relatives would feel entitled to use your place and not pitch in. Plenty of stories along those lines.

Very interesting.......Thanks @Dicey.  I am going to sniff around the regs and see if I can do something like this.  Although I never attend the BOD meetings - each month someone is getting fined for "short term rentals violations" and I am not totally sure how they define it.  There are 4 out of 130 homes that are "grandfathered" in and are allowed short term rentals.  It is also a county reg because people were always complaining about the short term party scene that was happening with the short term rentals.  The party-goers would go hard all weekend, upset the locals, make too much noise, involve the police and almost all of that went away after the county changed the regs.  I am going to look around because it would be a really nice revenue stream for us.

[sisto]

I wish - we couldn't afford the Tahoe area - Lake Tulloch in Copperopolis CA :)

Still nice!

[ChickenStash]

As an alternative, how about talking with the cabin owner and seeing if you work out a better rental deal. Pay a little extra for priority rental times, discounts for booking in advance, etc. If it's a smaller outfit they might welcome dealing with a long term renter.

As someone who spent a lot of my youth with parents that either had the cabin in the woods or lived full time in a vacation area in a cabin in the woods, it's a lot nicer to visit and let the landlord deal with it. Whatever you would normally do to maintain a city house of the same size, plan to at least double it for the cabin. Nature is always trying to reclaim the property and it takes a lot of work to keep it at bay. Appliances and fixtures will break faster when not used regularly. Unoccupied cabins are a big target for crime. Contractors are fewer and harder to schedule. They also tend to cost more than in the city. Just about everything is more expensive and less convenient.

[GoCubsGo]

  In addition to the ongoing costs, EVERYONE has been having similar thoughts for a year, so the prices on this type of property have skyrocketed, and may not be sustainable.  Buying now would add buying at a peak to the list of woes.

This.  I'm also flirting with the idea but the place I want to go, half of Chicago wants to go and prices have gone up 25% in a year.  I've looked at places on an off for 10 years. I've had to put it on the backburner due to the cold hard fact that prices are out of control (minimum price would be $400K).  We've been fortunate to have a shared family home in our desired location so we've still been able to go (but not as much as we'd like). 

But.... as someone who has anguished about this and run dozens of spreadsheets and actually put a couple offer in. I have a couple main thoughts:
- When the kids get into sports, camps, friends etc., they definitely don't want to hang out with their parents.  Our kids LOVED the Lake from ages 3-10.  Then travel sports hit and shortly after the teenage years .  We couldn't leave them home alone and it would have been a nightmare to force them up to the Lake in between their social schedules and sports schedules. 
- My sibling DID buy in our desired location  and they have to work really hard  during the week to afford that lifestyle.  It would have changed my career path (maybe for the better) had I needed to support a full second home. 
-Be careful with the "I can always rent it" idea.  My sibling did that for two years and hated it.  People don't treat your home as you would and there's always the wildcard tenant to deal with (their renters are generally very affluent and complain about the most minor things). Now they just grind harder to replace that $20K in lost rental income.

[WSUCoug1994]

  In addition to the ongoing costs, EVERYONE has been having similar thoughts for a year, so the prices on this type of property have skyrocketed, and may not be sustainable.  Buying now would add buying at a peak to the list of woes.

But.... as someone who has anguished about this and run dozens of spreadsheets and actually put a couple offer in. I have a couple main thoughts:
- When the kids get into sports, camps, friends etc., they definitely don't want to hang out with their parents.  Our kids LOVED the Lake from ages 3-10.  Then travel sports hit and shortly after the teenage years .  We couldn't leave them home alone and it would have been a nightmare to force them up to the Lake in between their social schedules and sports schedules. 

This is 100% accurate - I see it with friends/neighbors at the lake. I am going to retire at the end of next year and try and take advantage of the time before they get seriously into sports (5 and 3 right now).  Not sure what our approach will be as they age into more serious sports.  Plenty of tween/teens running around the lake and they make some real friendships there but the sports piece can really throw a wrench into your plans.

[englishteacheralex]

I have two wealthy relatives who own second homes on lakes. Every time I'm invited to visit one of their properties (which are awesome), I'm reminded of how I wouldn't want to do the same thing unless I were a multi-millionaire. So complicated, so much money in having to buy all the furnishings, taxes/utilities x 2, and then the only place you're ever going to go on vacation is the second home.

My parents owned a beach house that we went to every summer for two weeks. They rented it out for the rest of the summer. It was a ton of work and they sold it when I was in high school. I loved that beach house but I definitely understand why they got rid of it. To me it makes more sense to just rent a place for vacation.

[clarkfan1979]

Based on all the comments, I think it's safe to say that there is a high amount of variability on how to handle a cabin the wood/second home/vacation rental. It might seem like a second home is anti-MMM, but it really depends.

I have a long-term rental on Kauai (beach house) that we use personally in between tenants. We rent it furnished and most people end up doing a 6-12 month terminal lease. Our niche is people moving from the mainland to Kauai and they want a place when they arrive. They rent "site unseen" based on photos and video of the property.

We spent 6 weeks at the Kauai house in summer 2021 and we will probably do the same thing in summer 2022. I had some friends come visit for one week. My wife had her parents visit for 3 weeks. It's work, but for me, the juice is totally worth the squeeze. We bought a 2003 Honda Odyssey for $3000 and we keep it stored in the backyard.

My primary home in Colorado is 2 hours 15 minutes from Breckenridge. Traffic is never an issue, but with snow, it can be 2.5 - 3 hours each way. It might seem gluttonous, but I also want a mountain retreat. I snowboard about 30 days/year. I am now 42 years old and the drive back and forth is becoming less fun.

At the current moment, I can't really afford Breckenridge, so I am targeting the Alma/Fairplay area. It's 25-30 minutes south of Breckenridge and less than 2 hours from my house (1 hr. 55 minutes). I am trying to get a 3 bed/2 bath with an additional 1/1 bath in-law suite that you can block off from the main house rent as part of the main house. A detached garage with a 1 bed/1bath would also work. Worst case scenario, if I need to drive there to fix something, I want to be able to spend the night, even if the main house is rented. I would rather pay a handyman, but I would like the flexibility of that being an option. 

My main strategy will be to rent during peak season and use it myself during off-peak. The only time that I will block out for myself will be Fri-Sun (April 1st to May 15th) and then all of May 15th to June 1st. I do 75% of my snowboarding during this time of year.

Rent is going to include a 3-night minimum with a $150 cleaning fee. Ballpark rent is going to be $299/night for Fri & Sat, $249 night/Thurs & Sun, $199/night (Mon-Wed). 10% discount for entire week. 20% discount for entire month. Rates will be double for Thanksgiving & Christmas weeks. Rates will be 50% higher for March and holiday weeks (Presidents Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day and Labor Day). 

During the season, some weekends won't rent. If I don't have it rented by 1:00 p.m. on Thursday, I will pull the listing and use it myself. Friends will also be invited, but I don't expect much because the invites will be last minute.

In September 2020, I had 10 acres under contract for 125K (no house). The deal fell through because the HOA wasn't plowing the road that accesses the land. I eventually got my escrow money back, but it took 3 months. A 10 acre plot today (with snowplowing) to access in the winter is selling for 225K. Prices have doubled since March 2020.

However, I recently started to see many listings drop their price, by small amounts, but it's still a good sign. I am "hoping" that people who bought during COVID-19 on an impulse will start to have regret and start to sell in the next 12-18 months. I am not saying that I am confident that this will happen. I am just saying that this is my current game plan.

I want to build a small recreational area on the property. I think I need a minimum of 2 acres. I want a small sledding hill with a small snowboard park with small jumps. I would also like to build a small bmx/mountain bike pump track for the summer months. I am hoping those features might make the renter more appealing that other rentals. However, I would have to talk to a few insurance agents about liability if a renter broke a bone, which will 100% happen at some point.

I could probably quit my full-time job around age 48-50 and be free to snowboard 7 days a week. However, I wouldn't have the money to buy a mountain retreat. I would rather work M-Th and have a mountain retreat available for Fri-Sun. The other option would be to use it personally M-Th and rent it out Fri-Sun. However, that would require me to quit my job. I think I like my job too much to do that, so that is my least favorite option, but still an option.

[GoCubsGo]

@ clarkfan-  It sounds like you've definitely thought it out and run the numbers.  That's the only way to do it.  If you are thinking of holding it real long term, the length of drive matters a lot.  My grandparents use their place less and less just because they don't want to drive at night and don't want to make long car trips anymore. 

From what I'm hearing in my area though, it doesn't sound like prices will be going around any time soon.  There's been a lot of wealth created the past 5-7 years and the pandemic is definitely changing what's important to people.  Unfortunately, that seems to be the type of properties I want.

[clarkfan1979]

@ clarkfan-  It sounds like you've definitely thought it out and run the numbers.  That's the only way to do it.  If you are thinking of holding it real long term, the length of drive matters a lot.  My grandparents use their place less and less just because they don't want to drive at night and don't want to make long car trips anymore. 

From what I'm hearing in my area though, it doesn't sound like prices will be going around any time soon.  There's been a lot of wealth created the past 5-7 years and the pandemic is definitely changing what's important to people.  Unfortunately, that seems to be the type of properties I want.

Unfortunately, I agree with you. I don't really think fully built and permitted houses will go down in price, in the mountains, near Breckenridge. However, I do think there is a chance for a decrease in price on undeveloped land and maybe people who tried to build a house and failed. I am expecting to see an increase in the number of poorly built homes in the next 12-18 months with major problems that i might be willing to take on and fix. I am hoping that they will be less expensive than prices today. However, it's very possible that they might cost more.