Author Topic: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?  (Read 1335 times)

sjc0816

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Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« on: July 13, 2021, 11:05:38 AM »
We have to sit down and run the numbers (obviously). We currently max my husband's 401k at 19,500 and max HSA at $7,200. I do some part time work but do not bring in enough money to speak of.

We have recently started talking to a financial advisor (came highly recommended by my parents)....who is recommending that we stop 401k contributions and shift them entirely to Roth 401k. We currently have 1.1mil in pretax retirement savings....and he believes we need to shift to post-tax. We are 43 and 44. No plans for DH to retire before 60's. (He is in tech....and is pretty much on autopilot now...loves his job and been with a great company for 14 years.)

We don't necessarily disagree with him - but my dh makes 144k per year gross. We have two teenage sons (athletes) and we are living the MOST EXPENSIVE time of our lives right now. Food, sports costs, clothes, shoes, etc. Taking the cut to our cash flow to divert our savings to post-tax.....just makes me nervous. We have some liquid savings (45k) but we aren't adding much to it right now. We have three old cars (older teenage son drives)....and all cars have needed work recently and.....well, life just feels expensive. We have no debt besides a mortgage of 195k.... but are spending a good amount monthly.

Is there any glaring reason why we can't postpone switching to post-tax for a few years until my older son graduates HS? We would also like to be able to take a few (frugal) vacations over the next few years while we still can....empty nest is looming and this feels important.
College is being covered by my (wonderful) parents.

I'd love some advice.




Scandium

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2021, 12:15:32 PM »
I could be wrong, but switching to roth makes no sense to me. Does this advisor offer any reasons why? You'd be giving up ~5 grand i tax savings! It sounds like just a case of an advisor suggesting a change for the sake of it. And to justify his existence (and continued fee..). After all it's not his money so he doesn't really care.

sjc0816

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2021, 01:00:17 PM »
I believe it is because he thinks we will be in a higher tax bracket in retirement than we are currently. Paying taxes on it now vs. later. We stand to inherit a lot of money from my parents so I'm guessing he's factoring that in?

wenchsenior

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2021, 01:25:16 PM »
I can't really advise you specifically, but we recently made the same switch, about 5 years out from retirement. We got started saving/investing very late (I was 29, husband was 39 when he got his first post college career track job), and at that point I wanted the absolute most cash available to invest up front as possible, to make up for our lost decade.  This was despite the fact that our earnings early in our investment career were clearly lower than what we were hoping our retirement income would be.  So we invested exclusively in 401Ks.

Then as the years went by, and our stache grew and grew, I began to wonder if it wouldn't be better to start paying at least SOME of the tax up front, but of course our income had grown too and it had by that point become less clear that we'd have enough of a stache to put us in a higher tax bracket in retirement, so for about 10 years we invested the bulk in a 401K, and supplemented with Roth IRAs and taxable accounts.   

Then, the GOP tax cut bill went through, and it became clear that taxes were unlikely to ever go lower in the rest of our lifetimes (particularly so given that we live in a zero income tax state AND we are hoping to move to an income tax having state in retirement). So despite the fact that moving out of the tax shelter up front would hugely increase our current taxes, it still seems likely that we will have as high or higher a tax bracket in retirement as we do now (with a projected 2 million dollars cash at retirement AND a small pension AND a potential move to higher tax state AND the unlikelihood of federal tax rates remaining as insanely low as they are now), so we have switched to paying most of our taxes up front, not only by investing in Roth401K, but also doing rollovers from the 401K to Roth401K and from regular IRAs to RothIRAs.

I won't lie, the tax bills are ASTONISHINGLY HUGE compared with what we are used to, but I really want to get a big chunk of our stache converted now, so we can lower our tax bracket in retirement despite our projected high annual income.  Once we get a big chunk converted, that will leave us more 'tax bracket room' to do conversions after retirement with the remainder. By which I mean that if we have a pension + SS + taxable income from stache, it's likely to put us one bracket higher than  if we can draw on pension + SS + tax FREE income from stache. And if we have at least 5 years of tax free income to draw on, we can use whatever 'room' in our lower tax bracket is left over to keep rolling over money as we go along.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 01:31:38 PM by wenchsenior »

Scandium

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2021, 01:30:16 PM »
I believe it is because he thinks we will be in a higher tax bracket in retirement than we are currently. Paying taxes on it now vs. later. We stand to inherit a lot of money from my parents so I'm guessing he's factoring that in?

Maybe I'm dumb, but I still don't get it..
Inheritance is (currently) only taxes if it's more than $11.4 million (twice that if married). And even so it wouldn't affect your income tax, so Roth makes no difference there.
So for you to be in a higher tax bracket in retirement you'd have to spend, i.e. take out of IRAs etc, more than your current income of $144k, and accounting for all the savings. Will you? Have you told him you will? You'd have to up your spending to >$163,000 to hit the next tax bracket (and that's of course only on the last dollar anyway)

I guess if you'll inherit $22 million+ you might want to spend $300 grand a year or something? Not something I've have had to think about.. lol.

Another option is as your kids will no longer be claimed as dependents, so your taxes will go up slightly. But again nothing major, and you'll (hopefully) not have to pay to feed and clothe them..

I'd ask the advisor to show you the math!



« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 02:12:02 PM by Scandium »

sjc0816

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2021, 01:58:40 PM »
I believe it is because he thinks we will be in a higher tax bracket in retirement than we are currently. Paying taxes on it now vs. later. We stand to inherit a lot of money from my parents so I'm guessing he's factoring that in?

Maybe I'm dumb, but I still don't get it..
Inheritance is (currently) only taxes if it's more than $11.4 million (twice that if married). And even so it wouldn't affect your income tax, so Roth makes no difference there.
So for you to be in a higher tax bracket in retirement you'd have to spend, i.e. take out of IRAs etc, more than your current income of $144k, and accounting for all the savings. Will you? Have you told him you will? You'd have to up your spending to >$163,000 to hit the next tax bracket (and that's of course only on the last dollar anyway)

I guess if you'll inherit $22 million+ you might want to spend $300 grand a year or something? Not something I've have had to think about.. lol.

Another option is as your kids will no longer be claimed as dependents, so your taxes will go up slightly. But again nothing major, and you'll (hopefully) not have to pay to feed and clothe them..

I'd ask the advisor to should you the math!

I am definitely not knowledgeable on this topic at all...which is why I asked. I'm surely the dummy here! We are having dinner with this advisor soon and will ask more detailed questions then....we're just trying to educate ourselves at this point. Appreciate the responses!

joemandadman189

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2021, 06:12:12 PM »
We have to sit down and run the numbers (obviously). We currently max my husband's 401k at 19,500 and max HSA at $7,200. I do some part time work but do not bring in enough money to speak of.

We have recently started talking to a financial advisor (came highly recommended by my parents)....who is recommending that we stop 401k contributions and shift them entirely to Roth 401k. We currently have 1.1mil in pretax retirement savings....and he believes we need to shift to post-tax. We are 43 and 44. No plans for DH to retire before 60's. (He is in tech....and is pretty much on autopilot now...loves his job and been with a great company for 14 years.)

We don't necessarily disagree with him - but my dh makes 144k per year gross. We have two teenage sons (athletes) and we are living the MOST EXPENSIVE time of our lives right now. Food, sports costs, clothes, shoes, etc. Taking the cut to our cash flow to divert our savings to post-tax.....just makes me nervous. We have some liquid savings (45k) but we aren't adding much to it right now. We have three old cars (older teenage son drives)....and all cars have needed work recently and.....well, life just feels expensive. We have no debt besides a mortgage of 195k.... but are spending a good amount monthly.

Is there any glaring reason why we can't postpone switching to post-tax for a few years until my older son graduates HS? We would also like to be able to take a few (frugal) vacations over the next few years while we still can....empty nest is looming and this feels important.
College is being covered by my (wonderful) parents.

I'd love some advice.

just a quick calc and if DH keeps working till 60, you should have $4 million + in retirement accounts by that time (at 8% interest and only counting the 19500 +7200 a year)

4% of That total is a little more than you make now ~$180k vs ~$144k  for a comparison when thinking about taxes


Zamboni

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Re: Switching all retirement contributions to Roth 401k?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2021, 09:27:39 PM »
You are having dinner with him because he is also a friend? Or is this a schmoozy business dinner?

I'd guess he's just trying to diversify your tax situation for retirement.

The best time to put in Roth money is when you are very young . . . because it can compound for many years and you never have to pay tax on the interest! Man, I wish someone had told me that back in the day. It's not terrible to keep putting into a Roth when you are older, but it has higher impact if invested in Roth IRA or Roth 401K when younger.

Yes, I hear you. I'm wrapping up that expensive stage of high schoolers in sports/driving/growing/eating and eating and eating. I actually dialed my retirement savings down a notch for a year so we could enjoy some vacations and I could handle paying the new-driver insurance and take care of things like repairing four cars without worrying about it when there's a hit-and-run damage on a kid's car from the HS parking lot. And our life was rich beyond measure by my standards. We've just hung out in the kitchen talking or living room watching Netflix, but we've also gone snorkeling. We've skied. We've visited Yellowstone. We stayed at the nicer Hiltons/Sheratons/Westins on sports road trips this spring & summer, instead of my old standby the Red Roof Inn, and I even started getting a second hotel room or suite because everyone got too big to effectively share beds. I do not regret it one bit, because I've saved and saved and saved and now it was time to splurge a bit like a "normal" person. Okay, like a super rich person, by my standards. Honestly, I'd rather eat cat food in retirement than not have the memories from the splurge year.

On the bright side, driving insurance premiums do go down when the kids graduate HS (even more if they head off to college without a car!) So I say just spend a little more the next couple years, because it sounds like you'll be just fine in retirement either way. So anti-MMM of me, I know.


 

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