Author Topic: So tell me why i should contribute to my tsp over my vanguard taxable accounts.  (Read 7537 times)

UltraRunning

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Currently 21, married and in the military,  I have 17k in my vanguard taxable funds and 5.5k in my tsp.  If my goal is to retire early and im only making 36k (only 24k is taxed cause bah is a nontaxable stipend)  why would i even want to focus my tsp over my taxable accounts when i cant touch the tsp till 59 ( yes its a roth tsp so yes i can take out my principle penalty free)  but with so little income and unable to max out my tsp even if i contributed 100 percent of my savings rate ($1,400).
              I currently put away 400 in my tsp and 1k in my vanguard taxable funds monthly.  I am already taxed in  the lowest tax bracket as filing married jointly we still fall under the  15 percent tax bracket ( couldnt make it down to the 10% tax bracket and anyways with  my current income i personally favor roth over traditional tsp). So whats the big incentive to go 100 percent tsp and forget about my vanguard accounts?( currently have reit index fund(25%), us stock index fund(40%), us bond index fund(10%) and international index fund (25%). 
     When my goal at the moment is to put 20 years into the military retire at 40 and my tsp fund at 59.5 would just be a nice cherry on top with my $400  a month tsp contributions (of course with ranking up along with my wife increase in pay over the years would  start to put into a traditional tsp to stay within the 15% tax bracket.) That way i would be able to supplement my military retirement  as needed with my vanguard taxable accounts ( do not plan on withdrawing from my vanguard funds till i retire)

MDM

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why would i even want to focus my tsp over my taxable accounts when i cant touch the tsp till 59 ( yes its a roth tsp so yes i can take out my principle penalty free)  but with so little income and unable to max out my tsp even if i contributed 100 percent of my savings rate ($1,400).
One reason: over time your investments (and annual income) will likely grow.  Using Roth TSP guarantees* you never pay taxes on investment earnings, vs. maybe* not paying tax on taxable investment earnings. 

*Assuming no drastic changes in tax law.

UltraRunning

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why would i even want to focus my tsp over my taxable accounts when i cant touch the tsp till 59 ( yes its a roth tsp so yes i can take out my principle penalty free)  but with so little income and unable to max out my tsp even if i contributed 100 percent of my savings rate ($1,400).
One reason: over time your investments (and annual income) will likely grow.  Using Roth TSP guarantees* you never pay taxes on investment earnings, vs. maybe* not paying tax on taxable investment earnings. 

*Assuming no drastic changes in tax law.
I appreciate it sir.  For some reason im so set on vanguard taxable accounts over my tsp and appreciate all the reasoning on why i need to change my stubborness/ hard head. 

shitzmagee

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The great news is you're 21 and already saving/investing a good chunk of your income, you're smart enough to ask this question, and lucky enough to have found MMM. So you're on the right track. When I was 21, I had just gotten married and put on my butter bars. I couldn't spend my money fast enough. Luckily, I've turned that around and my FI date conveniently lines up with when I hit 20 years of service (not counting a pension).

And that's the not so great news. There's no guarantee that you (or I) will actually make it to 20 years. Instead of your goal being to make it to 20 years, retire at 40, and have your TSP just be a cherry on top of your pension, I recommend investing in a way that you reach FI at age 40 and your pension be the cherry.

If you think about it this way you will eventually find yourself (as your pay and tax bracket goes up) dumping as much as you can into a Traditional TSP and IRA in order to lower your tax burden and have more money to invest each year with the intent of starting a Roth conversion ladder when you turn 40. While at the same time, building your taxable stache to be big enough to cover 100% of expenses from age 40-45 and then some smaller percentage once your Roth ladder kicks in. For me, the math works out to be 65% of my savings goes into Traditional TSP and IRA (which doesn't quite max them out) and 35% into taxable investments. This gets me to FI at age 42 with enough in my taxable investments to cover me through age 60 when I'll then pull from TSP and IRA accounts. Notice that none of this accounts for my pension which will double my FI 4% SWR.

As long as you save your pay increases and keep your cost of living from increasing every time you get promoted, you'll be sitting very pretty when you reach 20 years of service. Keep up the good work.


UltraRunning

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The great news is you're 21 and already saving/investing a good chunk of your income, you're smart enough to ask this question, and lucky enough to have found MMM. So you're on the right track. When I was 21, I had just gotten married and put on my butter bars. I couldn't spend my money fast enough. Luckily, I've turned that around and my FI date conveniently lines up with when I hit 20 years of service (not counting a pension).

And that's the not so great news. There's no guarantee that you (or I) will actually make it to 20 years. Instead of your goal being to make it to 20 years, retire at 40, and have your TSP just be a cherry on top of your pension, I recommend investing in a way that you reach FI at age 40 and your pension be the cherry.

If you think about it this way you will eventually find yourself (as your pay and tax bracket goes up) dumping as much as you can into a Traditional TSP and IRA in order to lower your tax burden and have more money to invest each year with the intent of starting a Roth conversion ladder when you turn 40. While at the same time, building your taxable stache to be big enough to cover 100% of expenses from age 40-45 and then some smaller percentage once your Roth ladder kicks in. For me, the math works out to be 65% of my savings goes into Traditional TSP and IRA (which doesn't quite max them out) and 35% into taxable investments. This gets me to FI at age 42 with enough in my taxable investments to cover me through age 60 when I'll then pull from TSP and IRA accounts. Notice that none of this accounts for my pension which will double my FI 4% SWR.

As long as you save your pay increases and keep your cost of living from increasing every time you get promoted, you'll be sitting very pretty when you reach 20 years of service. Keep up the good work.
I appreciate it sir.  That is definitely a much better way to look at it as 20 years of service is not guaranteed and  your correct in that maybe 10 years in i might want to move on to something different.  I appreciate the different point of of view and outlook on life. Thank you sir. 

forummm

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There are a number of ways to take money out of your TSP (or IRA or 401k) before 59-1/2 without paying penalties. MMM had an article about this awhile back (forgive my laziness at not looking it up for you). One way is to use the 72(t) method of taking substantially equal periodic payments. As long as you take out money using the IRS formula (and you get a choice of 3 formulas) and you keep doing it the same way every year until you hit 59-1/2, withdrawals are penalty free (but still taxable like withdrawals would be if you were 60+). It's kind of a pain, but it works. Another is to use a Roth IRA. You can take contributions (but not earnings)to Roths out after 5 years without penalty. So what you do is to have a Roth for 5 years, convert as much money as you want from a traditional IRA (TSP, 401k) into that Roth each year (taxable the same way 60+ withdrawals are). Then you can withdraw the contributions from it without penalties. See http://www.mymoneyblog.com/can-i-really-withdraw-my-roth-ira-contributions-at-any-time-without-tax-or-penalty.html for a more thorough explanation. This is the method I plan to use since it lets me vary how much I withdraw in any year.

Catbert

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First congrats on starting so young!

I would probably switch the allocations so it's $400 to Vanguard and $1000 to Roth TSP.  In addition to what other's have point out, it's important to know that TSP fees are even lower than Vanguard.  In a pinch you can borrow from TSP  while you can't borrow from your Vanguard account.  When you withdraw from you Vanguard account (I assume its invested in a mutual fund) you might* owe capital gains.  You'll never owe taxes on that Roth TSP account.


*At the moment capital gains is 0% if you stay in the 15% bracket, but that could easily change either by a change in the tax law or growth in your income. 

TomTX

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I'm just puzzled why anyone would choose taxable over Roth.

Roth means you never pay taxes on your gains* - and you can withdraw your contributions at any age, and you can (with some gymnastics) withdraw the gains as well.



*under current law, blah blah.

UltraRunning

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I'm just puzzled why anyone would choose taxable over Roth.

Roth means you never pay taxes on your gains* - and you can withdraw your contributions at any age, and you can (with some gymnastics) withdraw the gains as well.



*under current law, blah blah.
I hear you sir.  I guess it comes down to the fact that i havent done my due diligence on the pipeline from my tsp  while I am under 59.5 and in the background do not want to admit to my self that i was wrong in my allocation of funds. After more reading about the pipeline along with the great comments here I am going to switch my 1k and $400 savings allocation around so im going to go 1k tsp and 400 vanguard.   I appreciate all the feedback guys and  just needed to hear it a couple of times and throw away my pride of  choosing the wrong emphasis.  Thank you guys for all the information  it is greatly appreciated. 

MDM

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After more reading about the pipeline along with the great comments here I am going to switch my 1k and $400 savings allocation around so im going to go 1k tsp and 400 vanguard.
Great step in the right direction! 

Now that the static friction has been overcome...what about going for a full $1500/mo to the TSP and $500/mo to a Roth IRA (you could easily set up the Roth IRA in Vanguard).  At those rates you would hit the $5500/yr Roth limit in November, and be limited to $1000 to the TSP in December, so there would be several hundred extra in the December net pay.

Going from $1400 to $2000 in monthly savings may be too much for now (don't know your budget details, and you are doing great for your age already), but it should become doable as years go by - and maybe, just maybe, even doable now...?  Again, you are doing great and keep up the good work!

Nords

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Sorry, Louie, I saw your PM first or I would've answered on this thread. 

If you haven't already seen my PM response, here's the content:

First, as long as you're earning a military salary, I think that you can afford to invest more aggressively.  (When my spouse and I were in uniform, we invested in 100% equity funds in our retirement & taxable accounts.  Today, in retirement, we're 90% in equity funds and 10% in cash-- two years of expenses.)  If you're happy with your current asset allocations in Vanguard and your TSP, then stick with them.  The more important factors are being able to sleep soundly at night (not worrying about volatility) and not needing to spend a lot of time tweaking everything (decision fatigue, paralysis by analysis). 
http://the-military-guide.com/2010/12/30/tailor-your-investments-to-your-military-pay-and-your-pension/

Next, the advantage of your TSP is primarily expenses.  I don't know the expense ratios on your Vanguard funds, but I bet they're at least twice as high as the TSP equivalents. 
https://www.tsp.gov/investmentfunds/fundsoverview/comparisonMatrix.shtml

Finally, there's taxes.  At your current income (especially with tax-free allowances), you're in a fairly low tax bracket.  You can lower your tax bill even more by contributing to the conventional TSP, or you might still be down in the 10% income tax bracket despite contributing to the Roth TSP.  I know that Vanguard has a reputation for tax efficiency, but every year you're paying taxes on dividends & capital gains.  When you invest in the TSP, there are no taxes until you withdraw the funds.  If you contribute to the Roth TSP (after paying income tax on the salary that you contribute) then there are no taxes ever.

One other feature:  someday the "G" fund might be a good replacement for a bond fund as part of an asset allocation, and it's only available in the TSP. 

Now let's look at getting that money out before age 59.5:
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/03/20/early-withdrawals-from-your-tsp-and-ira-after-the-military/ 
You already know about the Roth IRA conversion ladder, and you know that you can withdraw your Roth IRA contributions anytime for anything.  Now all you need to do is cover five years of expenses while you wait for five tax years to pass in your Roth IRA conversion ladder.

A few years before you hang up your uniform, save up 5-6 years of annual expenses in a taxable account.  During your first year out of the service, you can roll over your Roth TSP to a Roth IRA and that entire amount can be withdrawn after five tax years.  You've already paid taxes on the contributions, and after meeting the five-tax-year limit on the amount of the conversion (that you rolled over to the Roth IRA) then you can withdraw that too.  Notice that unlike your Vanguard taxable accounts, you paid zero additional taxes and you enjoyed decades of lower expense ratios.

It's a little more complicated with the conventional TSP, but after you leave the service you can still roll it over to a conventional IRA.  When you stop working (and your taxable income goes to nearly zero) then every year you can convert a small amount of that conventional IRA to a Roth IRA.  You'll have to pay tax on the gains, but you'll be in a very low tax bracket (with exemptions and deductions) and you might end up owing zero in taxes.  In any case, you'll pay far less in conversion taxes than you would have paid in those taxable Vanguard accounts.  And five tax years after you've converted the conventional IRA to a Roth IRA, the entire amount of the conversion is able to be withdrawn free of penalties & taxes.

EricL

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The great news is you're 21 and already saving/investing a good chunk of your income, you're smart enough to ask this question, and lucky enough to have found MMM. So you're on the right track. When I was 21, I had just gotten married and put on my butter bars. I couldn't spend my money fast enough. Luckily, I've turned that around and my FI date conveniently lines up with when I hit 20 years of service (not counting a pension).

And that's the not so great news. There's no guarantee that you (or I) will actually make it to 20 years. Instead of your goal being to make it to 20 years, retire at 40, and have your TSP just be a cherry on top of your pension, I recommend investing in a way that you reach FI at age 40 and your pension be the cherry.

If you think about it this way you will eventually find yourself (as your pay and tax bracket goes up) dumping as much as you can into a Traditional TSP and IRA in order to lower your tax burden and have more money to invest each year with the intent of starting a Roth conversion ladder when you turn 40. While at the same time, building your taxable stache to be big enough to cover 100% of expenses from age 40-45 and then some smaller percentage once your Roth ladder kicks in. For me, the math works out to be 65% of my savings goes into Traditional TSP and IRA (which doesn't quite max them out) and 35% into taxable investments. This gets me to FI at age 42 with enough in my taxable investments to cover me through age 60 when I'll then pull from TSP and IRA accounts. Notice that none of this accounts for my pension which will double my FI 4% SWR.

As long as you save your pay increases and keep your cost of living from increasing every time you get promoted, you'll be sitting very pretty when you reach 20 years of service. Keep up the good work.

+1 Amen!  The military is going through another downsizing spurt.  It will grow again IAW the next crisis but there's always a chance you'll get axed and not be able to leverage the growth spurt.  Being great at your job is sadly no guarantee. Lots of great troops go into an MOS that goes obsolete and can't reclassify.  The pension is great but it's at risk from people who want to improve it.  It should be fixed. But not by civilian Ivy League bean counters, silver spoon GOs, and contractors.  But that's a rant for another board.

Congratulations on having such a mammoth 'stache at such a young age!