The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: jeromedawg on April 06, 2021, 06:14:27 PM
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Hi all,
I've been applying for various state jobs in CA and was trying to figure out how to 'correctly' compare with my current position regarding benefits and what not. There's a position I'm interviewing for this Thursday which, on paper according to the monthly schedules they've posted, would pay 25%~ less than my current gross pay in the best case scenario (in the case that I am offered the position, that being that I actually qualify for the top end of the classification tier).
However, I realize benefits may be very different in terms of state vs private sector (I work for a large bank currently). Anyone currently work (or used to work) for the state or CA state in particular who can provide some insight? I know pensions are a thing, but does this mean most people won't contribute to 401ks? It's all foreign to me so just trying to think through and navigate all this as a I pursue more 'stability' hahaha
I figure, at a baseline in terms of experience and what not, state pay is just not going to be the same as private sector so sort of expecting a pay cut but wanted to find out from anyone here who has worked in or transitioned to working for the state.
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The other dilemma I have, knowing that I may have to take a paycut going to the state, is if it really makes sense to leave the higher-paying (but presumably unstable) job solely for the intention of getting a state job with the 'promise' of more job stability?
Current job situation: company *feels* like it's a sinking ship - nothing about my immediate job is miserable and though the work itself is somewhat boring, it's easy work, there's a lot of flexibility and benefits are good.
They switched up our teams last year during a re-org and I'm not too fond of the current manager - there are times where her leadership and direction are highly questionable (or just plain absent) but I just try to keep my head down and do what's asked of me. I don't feel that "desperation" to leave because putting up with that is OK for the pay and benefits.
I believe that if I were to be laid off, I would get severance of 2 weeks per year of service (basically 10 weeks/2.5 months of pay). I think our department is generally at lower risk of immediate lay-offs but they've been doing a good amount of restructuring and title changing, and there are a lot of rumors circling about how anyone with "QA" in their title is going to be at greater risk soon (I don't know how much of this to believe... it's thelayoff.com).
I can understand leaving this job to move over to something with higher pay but I'm really starting to question what I'm worth and wondering if I'm really worth what they're paying me (the company I work for has a reputation for 'overpaying' in that regard...of course I didn't realize it back when I joined but it seems more people are hinting this). Without me moving into some sort of management position or full-on getting into software engineering at high levels, I don't think I can really make any more of an upward move. The position with the state that I'm interviewing for would be sort of 'picking up where I left off" in terms of security experience, but it has been *years* since I've been in that field directly. There's also a 24x7 on-call rotation and I think it might be no more than a couple others on the immediate team...not a huge fan of being on-call with that few of teammates to share the load.
Should I just stay put, expecting a layoff, and *milk* it to the very end (there is a risk of things becoming even 'worse' with the current management but so far it's been quiet and I'm also somewhat 'shielded' being heavily involved and vested in the work that I've always been doing which is under my prior manager's direction)
I should also mention the current job is 100% WFH. The state job may or may not be WFH but I was applying *hoping* there would be the chance of that without any requirement to relocate. If there is a relocation requirement (either soon or 'eventually' then I probably will just pass)
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Generally, CA state jobs pay very little, at least at the beginning. As you go higher in the salary steps, and higher in the grades, then the salaries, in my opinion, are too high for the work demanded, considering the 40 hour week and vacation amounts. Basically, I think that, in 2021, $60k for a starting accountant is too low, but $140k for an accounting manager is too high, considering the work week is a flat 40 hours (no overtime) and 6 weeks vacation. An accounting manager in the private sector making $140k would work WAY more than 40 hours per week, and not get 6 weeks vacation. The salaries in question are for local CA governments; the state pays less, so your situation may be different.
Also, you are exempt from Social Security, so you'll save that amount from your paycheck. Depending on the agency, you may a similar amount into the retirement plan. To the degree that Calpers stays solvent, the state retirements are fantastic. Further, you should be eligible for retiree healthcare at minimal cost.
Overall, if you're only taking a 25% pay cut, you're most likely to be way ahead of your current compensation, considering the benefits. My wife gets crazy, gold-plated Kaiser plan ($10 copays, cheap prescriptions) through Calpers. It won't cost you much. Also, you may get 2.4% of your salary for each year of service in retirement. This can be substantially more than Social Security, which you would have already from years of working regular jobs.
A downside, as you mention, is that the state is old-school with respect to working conditions. Absent Covid, it's butts-in-seats from 8 AM to 5 PM, unless you're vouching PTO. So you'll have to vouch 2 hours of PTO to go see the doctor. On the other hand, you can expect the option to work a 9-80 shift, or go to 32 or 24 hours per week, but keep full benefits.
Depending on your age, the stability of state employment can be a big benefit. Ageism is real, and if you're pushing 50 you're likely to face serious unemployment, which isn't a factor in government. A lot of government workers switch from the private sector as they get older, and start to hit ageism.
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I just started with the State a month ago after 10+ years with the Feds. I'm an engineer and am now making more than I was but probably about where I would be with the private sector. I'm honestly figuring out some of the benefits (they are based on your bargaining unit and its confusing as hell) but still but wanted to correct the previous poster. I do pay social security, I'm not sure if that is everyone but I do. I'm not in love with the pension requirement but do get a 401k and a 457 so that should help. And I don't see myself working any 60 hour weeks which certainly is an an advantage of government work.
My experience has been there are always some government openings and not terribly competitive unless there is a recession. Maybe don't accept this position but keep watching incase layoffs become more imminent. I will also add it took 4 months from my unofficial offer to get the official one because they had to sign off on my higher salary. Be prepared to deal with bureaucracy.
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I just started with the State a month ago after 10+ years with the Feds. I'm an engineer and am now making more than I was but probably about where I would be with the private sector. I'm honestly figuring out some of the benefits (they are based on your bargaining unit and its confusing as hell) but still but wanted to correct the previous poster. I do pay social security, I'm not sure if that is everyone but I do. I'm not in love with the pension requirement but do get a 401k and a 457 so that should help. And I don't see myself working any 60 hour weeks which certainly is an an advantage of government work.
My experience has been there are always some government openings and not terribly competitive unless there is a recession. Maybe don't accept this position but keep watching incase layoffs become more imminent. I will also add it took 4 months from my unofficial offer to get the official one because they had to sign off on my higher salary. Be prepared to deal with bureaucracy.
Thanks for the insight. Yea, I've heard pension is kinda meh - that's not something I'd be working for. I'm just wanting the stability and no drama.
If you were in my shoes, would you change your mind about leaving IF:
1) the company has garnered a horrible reputation in the past several years and it's trickling down to you (e.g. some prospective hiring managers/recruiters might look at your resume and pass it up because of the poor reputation of the company - I would think this is illegal but how can it be proven anyway?)
2) your current manager provides little to no direction, defers everything back to the team (including things she should be doing as a leader/manager), is passive aggressive if you don't do what she wants and projects on her team, and plays favorites?
In my mind, the lay-offs seem pretty imminent. My brother works in another division and has been telling me that ppl are getting laid of left and right over there. He has been looking aggressively, and advising I do the same. He has been with the company forever and actually was laid off in 2008/2009 and jobless for a couple years before getting rehired back in (by the same manager... no issues with his manager but the lay-offs originated from a higher level which makes sense)
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I've worked in state government (not CA) for about 13 years. Just wanted to highlight one other issue worth considering. Many state pension funds are not doing well, and often the discussions around getting them onto firmer financial footing involve reducing benefits and/or increasing contributions by those who are not close to retirement. So what you think you're signing up for may not be what you get in 10-30 years.
So I would encourage you to look into whether there is a defined-contribution option (like a 401k but called a 403b). In many states the employer match is quite generous (e.g. in my state I put in 3% of salary and the state puts in 7%) and it is at least worth considering whether the defined-contribution plus deferred-compensation (457 plan) would leave you better off and with more freedom than a pension.
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Generally, CA state jobs pay very little, at least at the beginning. As you go higher in the salary steps, and higher in the grades, then the salaries, in my opinion, are too high for the work demanded, considering the 40 hour week and vacation amounts. Basically, I think that, in 2021, $60k for a starting accountant is too low, but $140k for an accounting manager is too high, considering the work week is a flat 40 hours (no overtime) and 6 weeks vacation. An accounting manager in the private sector making $140k would work WAY more than 40 hours per week, and not get 6 weeks vacation. The salaries in question are for local CA governments; the state pays less, so your situation may be different.
Also, you are exempt from Social Security, so you'll save that amount from your paycheck. Depending on the agency, you may a similar amount into the retirement plan. To the degree that Calpers stays solvent, the state retirements are fantastic. Further, you should be eligible for retiree healthcare at minimal cost.
Overall, if you're only taking a 25% pay cut, you're most likely to be way ahead of your current compensation, considering the benefits. My wife gets crazy, gold-plated Kaiser plan ($10 copays, cheap prescriptions) through Calpers. It won't cost you much. Also, you may get 2.4% of your salary for each year of service in retirement. This can be substantially more than Social Security, which you would have already from years of working regular jobs.
A downside, as you mention, is that the state is old-school with respect to working conditions. Absent Covid, it's butts-in-seats from 8 AM to 5 PM, unless you're vouching PTO. So you'll have to vouch 2 hours of PTO to go see the doctor. On the other hand, you can expect the option to work a 9-80 shift, or go to 32 or 24 hours per week, but keep full benefits.
Depending on your age, the stability of state employment can be a big benefit. Ageism is real, and if you're pushing 50 you're likely to face serious unemployment, which isn't a factor in government. A lot of government workers switch from the private sector as they get older, and start to hit ageism.
Thanks! If you don't mind me asking, what do you pay for the "gold-plated" Kaiser plan? I'm assuming that's the top of line PPO? Do they offer HSA too?
I'm not clear about the Social Security exemption - can you explain that more?
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I've worked in state government (not CA) for about 13 years. Just wanted to highlight one other issue worth considering. Many state pension funds are not doing well, and often the discussions around getting them onto firmer financial footing involve reducing benefits and/or increasing contributions by those who are not close to retirement. So what you think you're signing up for may not be what you get in 10-30 years.
So I would encourage you to look into whether there is a defined-contribution option (like a 401k but called a 403b). In many states the employer match is quite generous (e.g. in my state I put in 3% of salary and the state puts in 7%) and it is at least worth considering whether the defined-contribution plus deferred-compensation (457 plan) would leave you better off and with more freedom than a pension.
Thanks for the heads-up. I think I've heard CalPers is pretty good at least right now. The thing is though, pension is not something I'd be riding on - to me it's more icing on the cake. We've saved up quite a bit in our stache and I'm sort of looking at this going into the state as a Coast or Barista FIRE type of situation (which someone else had briefly suggested in another thread).
I don't know what, if any, the match is for contributions. I didn't think there were any matches but I don't know enough. This 403b, 457, etc stuff is beyond me at this point - I don't know what any of the differences are haha. All I know are 401ks, Roth IRAs, and Traditional IRAs. Guess I should read up on the other stuff a bit.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/111615/457-plans-and-403b-plans-comparison.asp
It says: "A 403(b) plan is typically offered to employees of private nonprofits and government workers, including public school employees."
So I don't think that position would have a 403b. I think it has a 457 if anything
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CalPERS pension contributions will take about 8-9% of your pay. Contributions accrue a fairly healthy interest rate if you cash out instead of taking the pension. I view my pension contributions as mostly replacing any bond allocation I might otherwise feel I need in my allocation (only problem is there is no opportunity to rebalance). Vesting for the pension system is 5 years. Pension payment is calculated based on "final" salary, years of service, age when starting the pension, and options chosen for survivor/beneficiary. A pension can be started as early as age 50. The state's only contribution towards retirement comes in the form of pension payments that go beyond contributions and the state's share of benefits for retirees. Participation in the pension plan is required. SavingsPlus (https://www.savingsplusnow.com/iApp/tcm/savingsplusnow/index.jsp) administers the 401k and 457b plans, there is no state match.
None of the health plans qualify for a HSA. There are a few PPO plans and several HMO plans. The HMO plans are all fairly similar to each other with fairly comprehensive, low copay coverage (primary difference between the various HMO plans is provider network). My portion of the premium for the Kaiser plan for two is about $300. If you retire (start your pension) immediately after separating from employment and have at least 10 years of service, you qualify for some medical benefit in retirement (prorated portion of benefit provided to active employees if less than 20 years of service).
You can find most of the details about the pension plan and health plans on CalPERS website (https://www.calpers.ca.gov/page/active-members). I believe most new state employees would be under the "State Miscellaneous & Industrial Members — 2% at 62" pension plan. Of course if you do get an offer, the HR department of your prospective employer should also be able to provide details.
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Thanks! If you don't mind me asking, what do you pay for the "gold-plated" Kaiser plan? I'm assuming that's the top of line PPO? Do they offer HSA too?
Kaiser is one of the HMO providers. It usually is one of the cheapest HMO plans availible to me. "Gold-plated" is how I've heard Kaiser employees refer to the state plan (I'm assuming it is the best plan offered by Kaiser). As far as I can tell all the HMO plans offered by CalPERS have similar coverage/copays. CalPERS also offers PPO plans in three tiers. When I started with the state, I chose the cheapest PPO plan. One year a provider offered a cheap HMO plan that was cheaper than the cheapest PPO, so I took it. I lucked out - I had emergency surgery that year and paid nothing out of pocket. That plan got cancelled, so I switched to Kaiser (I grew up in a state worker household on Kaiser, so I was pretty familiar with the Kaiser system).
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I wouldn't count on not working O.T. - like I said I did massive amounts including every weekend all holidays (24/7 operation) and as a new hire you likely will get the standard 2 weeks vacation time not 6 weeks someone mentioned above.
Weren't you mentioning earlier though that OT is on a dept-by-dept basis and if you're in public safety it seems this is more of a thing? The department I'm in is digital services for child welfare. They do have a 24x7 on-call rotation but I believe this is to respond to computer security incidents/issues and such. It doesn't *sound* super demanding but I guess I'll find out more tomorrow.
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I'm a state office worker "represented" by SEIU. Employees represented by other unions might have slightly different details.
Generally new state employees get 7 hours of vacation + 8 hour of sick leave each month (~2 weeks/year). After a few years the vacation gets bumped up to 10 hours per month (~3 weeks/year) then gradually rises to a max around 15 hours per month (~4 weeks/year). You can also opt for annual leave that replaces the 8 hours of sick leave with 4 additional hours of vacation.
Generally each classification has a range for salary. Employees usually start at the minimum for their classification and get a 5% increase (referred to as a merit salary adjustment) each year on the anniversary of their hire until reaching the maximum. All employees also get a general salary adjustment when the unions negotiate cost of living raises (typically in July). Our previously negotiated 2020 and 2021 general salary adjustments were postponed due to COVID. We also were given a pay cut (compensated with leave credits). I've heard rumors that this will end June this year (originally negotiated through Jun 2022); I'm not sure if that might mean our general salary adjustments might be applied before July 2022 or not. A few years ago the state started a new deduction (about 2.5% of pay) from our paychecks for "Other Post Employment Benefits". This is to shore up medical benefits for retirees, but unlike the pension contribution, if you don't end up retiring with medical benefits, you're SOL. This was suspended to ease the burden of the COVID pay cuts and along with other adjustments meant that take home pay didn't get changed all that much.
Other depts or agencies within the CalPERs system have different vesting times, as well as age to begin taking it and other various things such as amount you can get 2% at 55, 3% at 50, 2.5% at 60, etc). Several years ago the whole pension system changed for new hires so you'd likely be required to work longer, contribute more into the pension and for both current and future (retiree) medical benefits. So check out which system you'd be in and what those individual requirements are. Some offer 401ks and 403b etc but mine only offered a 457 without matching. Plus many now require you to pay into SS as well as your pension but you'll be able to collect both.
Yes, I'm in the situation where I pay into both SS and CalPERS. I believe this is the situation for most state office workers. The primary change that I'm aware of to the pension for newer employees vs. employees grandfathered into older plans is the how years of service and age at retirement affect pension payment. I think most state office workers used to be in the 2% at 55 plan (meaning the basic pension benefit was 2% of final salary for each year of service if you retired at age 55). I'm covered by 2% at 60. I believe new hires today are covered by 2% at 62. I believe everyone in the same bargaining unit contributes the same portion of their paychecks to the pension. Nearly all CalPERS plans require 5 years of service to vest and a minimum age of 50 to draw a pension; but the different plans have different contribution rates and formulas for calculating pension amount.
Weren't you mentioning earlier though that OT is on a dept-by-dept basis and if you're in public safety it seems this is more of a thing? The department I'm in is digital services for child welfare. They do have a 24x7 on-call rotation but I believe this is to respond to computer security incidents/issues and such. It doesn't *sound* super demanding but I guess I'll find out more tomorrow.
For most state office workers, overtime is rare (almost unheard of). Your on-call rotation sounds like you might occasionally catch some.
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I just started with the State a month ago after 10+ years with the Feds. I'm an engineer and am now making more than I was but probably about where I would be with the private sector. I'm honestly figuring out some of the benefits (they are based on your bargaining unit and its confusing as hell) but still but wanted to correct the previous poster. I do pay social security, I'm not sure if that is everyone but I do. I'm not in love with the pension requirement but do get a 401k and a 457 so that should help. And I don't see myself working any 60 hour weeks which certainly is an an advantage of government work.
My experience has been there are always some government openings and not terribly competitive unless there is a recession. Maybe don't accept this position but keep watching incase layoffs become more imminent. I will also add it took 4 months from my unofficial offer to get the official one because they had to sign off on my higher salary. Be prepared to deal with bureaucracy.
Thanks for the insight. Yea, I've heard pension is kinda meh - that's not something I'd be working for. I'm just wanting the stability and no drama.
If you were in my shoes, would you change your mind about leaving IF:
1) the company has garnered a horrible reputation in the past several years and it's trickling down to you (e.g. some prospective hiring managers/recruiters might look at your resume and pass it up because of the poor reputation of the company - I would think this is illegal but how can it be proven anyway?)
2) your current manager provides little to no direction, defers everything back to the team (including things she should be doing as a leader/manager), is passive aggressive if you don't do what she wants and projects on her team, and plays favorites?
In my mind, the lay-offs seem pretty imminent. My brother works in another division and has been telling me that ppl are getting laid of left and right over there. He has been looking aggressively, and advising I do the same. He has been with the company forever and actually was laid off in 2008/2009 and jobless for a couple years before getting rehired back in (by the same manager... no issues with his manager but the lay-offs originated from a higher level which makes sense)
I'm just some dude on the internet but in your situation I would start lining up other options whether that is with the State or somewhere else. Take the job and if you don't like it start looking for work elsewhere.
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All new hires into CalPERS (since PEPRA took effect in 2013) are classified at 2% at 62 (with the exception of "safety" personnel). OP, I'm guessing you're not a safety classified employee, unless you're running physical bank security and will be moving into a similar role with the State. However, the new CalPERS plan paired with a 457 is - IMO - are the promised land of early retirement. Unlike 403b and 401k plans, 457 money can be withdrawn penalty-free pre age 59 1/2, but withdrawals are taxed at ordinary income levels. Plus, the new PEPRA CalPERS plans allow a 1%/year "reduced" annuity to be drawn at 52, rather than 62, or 1.5%/year at 57. My wife works for municipal entity in CA, and our plan is for her to bail at 52 and draw the 1% pension plus SWR from her 457. Based on what she has in the plan now, plus projecting max contributions for 17 years, she will end up at 100% replacement of post-tax, post-tax deferred salary at 52. Not all agencies qualify for retiree health, so I'd look into that as well. After the 2020 election, however, and the actions the Biden Administration has taken to support Obamacare, I'd anticipate fairly reliable access to medical insurance through Covered California to continue for the foreseeable future.
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I'm a state office worker "represented" by SEIU. Employees represented by other unions might have slightly different details.
Generally new state employees get 7 hours of vacation + 8 hour of sick leave each month (~2 weeks/year). After a few years the vacation gets bumped up to 10 hours per month (~3 weeks/year) then gradually rises to a max around 15 hours per month (~4 weeks/year). You can also opt for annual leave that replaces the 8 hours of sick leave with 4 additional hours of vacation.
Generally each classification has a range for salary. Employees usually start at the minimum for their classification and get a 5% increase (referred to as a merit salary adjustment) each year on the anniversary of their hire until reaching the maximum. All employees also get a general salary adjustment when the unions negotiate cost of living raises (typically in July). Our previously negotiated 2020 and 2021 general salary adjustments were postponed due to COVID. We also were given a pay cut (compensated with leave credits). I've heard rumors that this will end June this year (originally negotiated through Jun 2022); I'm not sure if that might mean our general salary adjustments might be applied before July 2022 or not. A few years ago the state started a new deduction (about 2.5% of pay) from our paychecks for "Other Post Employment Benefits". This is to shore up medical benefits for retirees, but unlike the pension contribution, if you don't end up retiring with medical benefits, you're SOL. This was suspended to ease the burden of the COVID pay cuts and along with other adjustments meant that take home pay didn't get changed all that much.
Other depts or agencies within the CalPERs system have different vesting times, as well as age to begin taking it and other various things such as amount you can get 2% at 55, 3% at 50, 2.5% at 60, etc). Several years ago the whole pension system changed for new hires so you'd likely be required to work longer, contribute more into the pension and for both current and future (retiree) medical benefits. So check out which system you'd be in and what those individual requirements are. Some offer 401ks and 403b etc but mine only offered a 457 without matching. Plus many now require you to pay into SS as well as your pension but you'll be able to collect both.
Yes, I'm in the situation where I pay into both SS and CalPERS. I believe this is the situation for most state office workers. The primary change that I'm aware of to the pension for newer employees vs. employees grandfathered into older plans is the how years of service and age at retirement affect pension payment. I think most state office workers used to be in the 2% at 55 plan (meaning the basic pension benefit was 2% of final salary for each year of service if you retired at age 55). I'm covered by 2% at 60. I believe new hires today are covered by 2% at 62. I believe everyone in the same bargaining unit contributes the same portion of their paychecks to the pension. Nearly all CalPERS plans require 5 years of service to vest and a minimum age of 50 to draw a pension; but the different plans have different contribution rates and formulas for calculating pension amount.
Weren't you mentioning earlier though that OT is on a dept-by-dept basis and if you're in public safety it seems this is more of a thing? The department I'm in is digital services for child welfare. They do have a 24x7 on-call rotation but I believe this is to respond to computer security incidents/issues and such. It doesn't *sound* super demanding but I guess I'll find out more tomorrow.
For most state office workers, overtime is rare (almost unheard of). Your on-call rotation sounds like you might occasionally catch some.
This position notes:
"The salary reduction is effective July 1, 2020, through June 30, 2022, SEIU collective bargaining employees. Employees will accrue two days of personal leave credit (equivalent to two days’ pay). per month." so I guess I'm part of the same?
My PTO is pretty nuts - I think I've hit my accrual cap which is like 240 hours. Each month I have to take at least 1-2 days off so I stay under the accrual cap. But yea I basically have had a rolling 30 days of PTO for the past couple years, give or take.
The other thing about this position I noticed is that it's based out of Sacramento. That said, do state jobs account for cost of living at all? Or are there no such "adjustments" other than finding a 'local' state job in your area? I'm not sure it would be such a great idea to take a paycut into a "flat" tier of pay in my current area as it's HCOL/VHCOL.
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I just started with the State a month ago after 10+ years with the Feds. I'm an engineer and am now making more than I was but probably about where I would be with the private sector. I'm honestly figuring out some of the benefits (they are based on your bargaining unit and its confusing as hell) but still but wanted to correct the previous poster. I do pay social security, I'm not sure if that is everyone but I do. I'm not in love with the pension requirement but do get a 401k and a 457 so that should help. And I don't see myself working any 60 hour weeks which certainly is an an advantage of government work.
My experience has been there are always some government openings and not terribly competitive unless there is a recession. Maybe don't accept this position but keep watching incase layoffs become more imminent. I will also add it took 4 months from my unofficial offer to get the official one because they had to sign off on my higher salary. Be prepared to deal with bureaucracy.
Thanks for the insight. Yea, I've heard pension is kinda meh - that's not something I'd be working for. I'm just wanting the stability and no drama.
If you were in my shoes, would you change your mind about leaving IF:
1) the company has garnered a horrible reputation in the past several years and it's trickling down to you (e.g. some prospective hiring managers/recruiters might look at your resume and pass it up because of the poor reputation of the company - I would think this is illegal but how can it be proven anyway?)
2) your current manager provides little to no direction, defers everything back to the team (including things she should be doing as a leader/manager), is passive aggressive if you don't do what she wants and projects on her team, and plays favorites?
In my mind, the lay-offs seem pretty imminent. My brother works in another division and has been telling me that ppl are getting laid of left and right over there. He has been looking aggressively, and advising I do the same. He has been with the company forever and actually was laid off in 2008/2009 and jobless for a couple years before getting rehired back in (by the same manager... no issues with his manager but the lay-offs originated from a higher level which makes sense)
I'm just some dude on the internet but in your situation I would start lining up other options whether that is with the State or somewhere else. Take the job and if you don't like it start looking for work elsewhere.
I've been applying but the responses are staggered. Most of my applications are getting rejected so this is the only one that has come through thus far. I have more applications out there (including some I submitted in the past several days) but no reply. If the interview actually goes well tomorrow (I'm trying to set my expectations low) and I get an offer are you saying just to jump on it?
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All new hires into CalPERS (since PEPRA took effect in 2013) are classified at 2% at 62 (with the exception of "safety" personnel). OP, I'm guessing you're not a safety classified employee, unless you're running physical bank security and will be moving into a similar role with the State. However, the new CalPERS plan paired with a 457 is - IMO - are the promised land of early retirement. Unlike 403b and 401k plans, 457 money can be withdrawn penalty-free pre age 59 1/2, but withdrawals are taxed at ordinary income levels. Plus, the new PEPRA CalPERS plans allow a 1%/year "reduced" annuity to be drawn at 52, rather than 62, or 1.5%/year at 57. My wife works for municipal entity in CA, and our plan is for her to bail at 52 and draw the 1% pension plus SWR from her 457. Based on what she has in the plan now, plus projecting max contributions for 17 years, she will end up at 100% replacement of post-tax, post-tax deferred salary at 52. Not all agencies qualify for retiree health, so I'd look into that as well. After the 2020 election, however, and the actions the Biden Administration has taken to support Obamacare, I'd anticipate fairly reliable access to medical insurance through Covered California to continue for the foreseeable future.
My friend who is a state employee said the same thing about the 457 in that you can withdraw earlier. So "PEPRA" is the new pension plan and in both cases (PEPRA and 457) you are contributing a certain amount/% from each paycheck? What percentage can or do you suggest contributing per month for each? Right now, I put in 15% of my salary towards the 401k to max it out. EDIT: ok looks like 457 is the same contribution limit as 401k at $19500. Are there fees for maintaining the 457?
I'm still cloudy on the PEPRA/CalPers Pension thing though - are you actually contributing to that on a monthly basis as well?
And where does Social Security fit into all this?
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This position notes:
"The salary reduction is effective July 1, 2020, through June 30, 2022, SEIU collective bargaining employees. Employees will accrue two days of personal leave credit (equivalent to two days’ pay). per month." so I guess I'm part of the same?
Yep. The leave credits thus accrued must be used before other leave credits (other than sick leave), but they're basically used just the same as vacation/annual leave.
My PTO is pretty nuts - I think I've hit my accrual cap which is like 240 hours. Each month I have to take at least 1-2 days off so I stay under the accrual cap. But yea I basically have had a rolling 30 days of PTO for the past couple years, give or take.
I don't think the state caps sick leave. Compensable leave credits are supposed to be capped at 640 hours (some agency don't do a good job at this - I think sometimes they have to cash out the excess if the employee switches to a different agency).
The other thing about this position I noticed is that it's based out of Sacramento. That said, do state jobs account for cost of living at all? Or are there no such "adjustments" other than finding a 'local' state job in your area? I'm not sure it would be such a great idea to take a paycut into a "flat" tier of pay in my current area as it's HCOL/VHCOL.
Some location do get a differential, but I think that would only apply if you have to physically report to a high cost of living/difficult to recruit area. If you're looking at a 100% remote position based out of Sacramento I don't think you'd qualify.
My friend who is a state employee said the same thing about the 457 in that you can withdraw earlier. So "PEPRA" is the new pension plan and in both cases (PEPRA and 457) you are contributing a certain amount/% from each paycheck? What percentage can or do you suggest contributing per month for each? Right now, I put in 15% of my salary towards the 401k to max it out. EDIT: ok looks like 457 is the same contribution limit as 401k at $19500. Are there fees for maintaining the 457?
I'm still cloudy on the PEPRA/CalPers Pension thing though - are you actually contributing to that on a monthly basis as well?
And where does Social Security fit into all this?
I believe the pension contribution is mandatory and is about 8-9% of salary. Another 2-3% of salary will be taken for Other Post Employment Benefits (once the COVID suspension of that is over).
SavingsPlus accounts are completely optional. Each savings plus plan has a $1.50/month fee. You'd have access to the 457 and 401(k) each with the IRS set limit of $19500.
I did run into an issue with SavingsPlus trying to max my contributions last year. SavingsPlus won't let you set a contribution tat would put you over the IRS limit if it applied from your next paycheck to the end of the year, but it is the second paycheck after you submit the change that actually sees the change (submit a change in April, it applies to pay for May, which is received on June 1st; but SavingsPlus calculates the limit as if the pay for April which is received on May 1st will also be at the new setting). I applied late and missed opening my account with my January paycheck, then changed my contribution several times over the year to get it closer to the max.
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This position notes:
"The salary reduction is effective July 1, 2020, through June 30, 2022, SEIU collective bargaining employees. Employees will accrue two days of personal leave credit (equivalent to two days’ pay). per month." so I guess I'm part of the same?
Yep. The leave credits thus accrued must be used before other leave credits (other than sick leave), but they're basically used just the same as vacation/annual leave.
My PTO is pretty nuts - I think I've hit my accrual cap which is like 240 hours. Each month I have to take at least 1-2 days off so I stay under the accrual cap. But yea I basically have had a rolling 30 days of PTO for the past couple years, give or take.
I don't think the state caps sick leave. Compensable leave credits are supposed to be capped at 640 hours (some agency don't do a good job at this - I think sometimes they have to cash out the excess if the employee switches to a different agency).
The other thing about this position I noticed is that it's based out of Sacramento. That said, do state jobs account for cost of living at all? Or are there no such "adjustments" other than finding a 'local' state job in your area? I'm not sure it would be such a great idea to take a paycut into a "flat" tier of pay in my current area as it's HCOL/VHCOL.
Some location do get a differential, but I think that would only apply if you have to physically report to a high cost of living/difficult to recruit area. If you're looking at a 100% remote position based out of Sacramento I don't think you'd qualify.
My friend who is a state employee said the same thing about the 457 in that you can withdraw earlier. So "PEPRA" is the new pension plan and in both cases (PEPRA and 457) you are contributing a certain amount/% from each paycheck? What percentage can or do you suggest contributing per month for each? Right now, I put in 15% of my salary towards the 401k to max it out. EDIT: ok looks like 457 is the same contribution limit as 401k at $19500. Are there fees for maintaining the 457?
I'm still cloudy on the PEPRA/CalPers Pension thing though - are you actually contributing to that on a monthly basis as well?
And where does Social Security fit into all this?
I believe the pension contribution is mandatory and is about 8-9% of salary. Another 2-3% of salary will be taken for Other Post Employment Benefits (once the COVID suspension of that is over).
SavingsPlus accounts are completely optional. Each savings plus plan has a $1.50/month fee. You'd have access to the 457 and 401(k) each with the IRS set limit of $19500.
I did run into an issue with SavingsPlus trying to max my contributions last year. SavingsPlus won't let you set a contribution tat would put you over the IRS limit if it applied from your next paycheck to the end of the year, but it is the second paycheck after you submit the change that actually sees the change (submit a change in April, it applies to pay for May, which is received on June 1st; but SavingsPlus calculates the limit as if the pay for April which is received on May 1st will also be at the new setting). I applied late and missed opening my account with my January paycheck, then changed my contribution several times over the year to get it closer to the max.
Regarding the two days of vacation/pto per week, my friend who works for the state said you can accumulate these and not use them and have them count towards some sort of credit?
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Thanks! If you don't mind me asking, what do you pay for the "gold-plated" Kaiser plan? I'm assuming that's the top of line PPO? Do they offer HSA too?
I'm not clear about the Social Security exemption - can you explain that more?
My wife works part time, so what we pay isn't representative of what you'd pay. We pay $1000/month for a family of 4. The total cost per year is $26k. A full time employee would pay $400 or so per month.
Because state workers are in a government pension, they are (in this case) exempt from Social Security. You don't pay in to Social Security, but you don't get Social Security credit for this time worked. However, you'll receive Social Security for the time you worked outside of the Calpers system. If you have worked for 10 total years, you'll receive the minimum Social Security benefit.
Social Security is kind of a bad deal for high earners, as a percent of income, so you're better off in Calpers.
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Regarding the two days of vacation/pto per week, my friend who works for the state said you can accumulate these and not use them and have them count towards some sort of credit?
My understanding is yes, you can cash these in upon retirement or leaving state service. They will be redeemed at your final salary. This is effectively extra pay over your salary, though deferred.
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I've been applying but the responses are staggered. Most of my applications are getting rejected so this is the only one that has come through thus far. I have more applications out there (including some I submitted in the past several days) but no reply. If the interview actually goes well tomorrow (I'm trying to set my expectations low) and I get an offer are you saying just to jump on it?
One thing is that current state employees get preference for hiring over outside candidates. I have more experience at the local level, but often job postings are posted as "internal candidate only".
If you want to leave, jump on the offer. You can lateral to another position later. From what you've said about your current job/company, I'd get the hell out of there.
Another advantage to state service is that you can lateral to a LCOL area. I'd avoid Bakersfield or other shitholes, but Crescent City or Susanville are beautiful and you'll keep the same pay.
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I've been applying but the responses are staggered. Most of my applications are getting rejected so this is the only one that has come through thus far. I have more applications out there (including some I submitted in the past several days) but no reply. If the interview actually goes well tomorrow (I'm trying to set my expectations low) and I get an offer are you saying just to jump on it?
One thing is that current state employees get preference for hiring over outside candidates. I have more experience at the local level, but often job postings are posted as "internal candidate only".
If you want to leave, jump on the offer. You can lateral to another position later. From what you've said about your current job/company, I'd get the hell out of there.
Another advantage to state service is that you can lateral to a LCOL area. I'd avoid Bakersfield or other shitholes, but Crescent City or Susanville are beautiful and you'll keep the same pay.
Yea the idea of moving to a LCOL is great except we're trying to establish our roots in South OC primarily for the kids' education (Mandarin dual immersion program) and would strongly prefer to stay in the area. Unfortunately, it comes at the price of being a HCOL area :(
A couple naysayers elsewhere are warning not to do this or take the paycut because I'll be ruining my 'upward mobility' as far as pay grade moving forward....especially if I try to get back into the private sector (if for some reason I find that the state job just isn't cutting it, etc). The warning is that there's some kind of 'stigma' with state jobs where private sector job hiring managers and recruiters are biased and will either look over you or try to get you in and offer you much less than what you could get paid because they know you'll make the jump for less $$$.
BTW: regarding health benefits, my friend who works for the county sent me screenshots of what he "pays" - apparently he gets a waiver for around $2200-2300 each month and that goes towards whatever plan. He has Kaiser HMO which is $1700-1800, so he told me that the difference goes into his paycheck. Effectively, whatever you save on health insurance you just pocket. It sounds like this is the case regardless of whether you're county or state but I might be wrong.
EDIT: I just checked at http://eservices.calhr.ca.gov/BenefitsCalculatorExternal/BenefitCalculator.aspx - It looks like for Kaiser HMO/Delta Dental Basic/Vision it will cost $447 for a family (they don't specify how many so it seems like 3 or more and they don't increase the cost or state contribution amount. At my current company, for the same coverage I'm roughly paying around $420/mo AND I am able to contribute to an FSA and HSA. So unless I'm missing something, it seems the state health/dental/vision benefits actually aren't that great especially compared to county, where they give you a much more generous voucher.
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Yea the idea of moving to a LCOL is great except we're trying to establish our roots in South OC primarily for the kids' education (Mandarin dual immersion program) and would strongly prefer to stay in the area. Unfortunately, it comes at the price of being a HCOL area :(
A couple naysayers elsewhere are warning not to do this or take the paycut because I'll be ruining my 'upward mobility' as far as pay grade moving forward....especially if I try to get back into the private sector (if for some reason I find that the state job just isn't cutting it, etc). The warning is that there's some kind of 'stigma' with state jobs where private sector job hiring managers and recruiters are biased and will either look over you or try to get you in and offer you much less than what you could get paid because they know you'll make the jump for less $$$.
BTW: regarding health benefits, my friend who works for the county sent me screenshots of what he "pays" - apparently he gets a waiver for around $2200-2300 each month and that goes towards whatever plan. He has Kaiser HMO which is $1700-1800, so he told me that the difference goes into his paycheck. Effectively, whatever you save on health insurance you just pocket. It sounds like this is the case regardless of whether you're county or state but I might be wrong.
EDIT: I just checked at http://eservices.calhr.ca.gov/BenefitsCalculatorExternal/BenefitCalculator.aspx - It looks like for Kaiser HMO/Delta Dental Basic/Vision it will cost $447 for a family (they don't specify how many so it seems like 3 or more and they don't increase the cost or state contribution amount. At my current company, for the same coverage I'm roughly paying around $420/mo AND I am able to contribute to an FSA and HSA. So unless I'm missing something, it seems the state health/dental/vision benefits actually aren't that great especially compared to county, where they give you a much more generous voucher.
I don't doubt the stigma of working for the state is real. On the flip side, government experience is a plus if you want to lateral to another agency at a city/county/state. Also, as you get older, you'll get laid off and there will come a time when you won't be able to get another job. This won't happen at the state.
It sounds like your company has really good benefits. That's good. But not typical. Also, the state plans are actually much better, in terms of lower copays and more generous coverage amounts (MOOP, co-insurance, etc).
It's ultimately up to you as to what you do. I wouldn't sweat it too much. I never really liked working for corporate America, so I wouldn't miss it. I also wouldn't care about burning bridges there, you'll open up new doors in government service. If you get to your new job and hate it, you can leave your state job off your resume if you're only there for a year or so.
Like anything, there are pros and cons.
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Yea the idea of moving to a LCOL is great except we're trying to establish our roots in South OC primarily for the kids' education (Mandarin dual immersion program) and would strongly prefer to stay in the area. Unfortunately, it comes at the price of being a HCOL area :(
A couple naysayers elsewhere are warning not to do this or take the paycut because I'll be ruining my 'upward mobility' as far as pay grade moving forward....especially if I try to get back into the private sector (if for some reason I find that the state job just isn't cutting it, etc). The warning is that there's some kind of 'stigma' with state jobs where private sector job hiring managers and recruiters are biased and will either look over you or try to get you in and offer you much less than what you could get paid because they know you'll make the jump for less $$$.
BTW: regarding health benefits, my friend who works for the county sent me screenshots of what he "pays" - apparently he gets a waiver for around $2200-2300 each month and that goes towards whatever plan. He has Kaiser HMO which is $1700-1800, so he told me that the difference goes into his paycheck. Effectively, whatever you save on health insurance you just pocket. It sounds like this is the case regardless of whether you're county or state but I might be wrong.
EDIT: I just checked at http://eservices.calhr.ca.gov/BenefitsCalculatorExternal/BenefitCalculator.aspx - It looks like for Kaiser HMO/Delta Dental Basic/Vision it will cost $447 for a family (they don't specify how many so it seems like 3 or more and they don't increase the cost or state contribution amount. At my current company, for the same coverage I'm roughly paying around $420/mo AND I am able to contribute to an FSA and HSA. So unless I'm missing something, it seems the state health/dental/vision benefits actually aren't that great especially compared to county, where they give you a much more generous voucher.
I don't doubt the stigma of working for the state is real. On the flip side, government experience is a plus if you want to lateral to another agency at a city/county/state. Also, as you get older, you'll get laid off and there will come a time when you won't be able to get another job. This won't happen at the state.
It sounds like your company has really good benefits. That's good. But not typical. Also, the state plans are actually much better, in terms of lower copays and more generous coverage amounts (MOOP, co-insurance, etc).
It's ultimately up to you as to what you do. I wouldn't sweat it too much. I never really liked working for corporate America, so I wouldn't miss it. I also wouldn't care about burning bridges there, you'll open up new doors in government service. If you get to your new job and hate it, you can leave your state job off your resume if you're only there for a year or so.
Like anything, there are pros and cons.
I'm currently 40 now. I'm just wondering if there's any "rush" to jump into a govt job now or if I should keep pursuing private sector jobs in the meantime and then move over to govt a little later (if I want to). And yes, my company has very good benefits (considering it's non-tech) but the overall reputation of the company has been extremely poor for the past several years.
But yea you're right about the lower copay amounts actually - I forget that I'm paying into a high deductible plan with what I have so things start adding up with all the doctor's visits. I think I've been really used to working corporate America so it's hard understanding what it's like on the 'other side of the fence'
Regarding leaving the state job off the resume... it will look like there was a 'lapse' where I wasn't working - if people do things like that, what do they tell the recruiter/hiring manager if asked "so what were you doing since you quit/were laid off up until now? Haha
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I'm not sure you need to be worried about your resume - the times we are in mean that just about anything - career change, time not working, change of employer and industry - is going to need very little explanation other than "year of covid, made the best decision for my family at the time".
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Regarding the two days of vacation/pto per weekmonth, my friend who works for the state said you can accumulate these and not use them and have them count towards some sort of credit?
Enforcement of the 640 hour cap on compensable leave might only look at vacation/annual leave balances. The rules say that the "Personal Leave Program 2020" credits must be used before vacation/annual leave, but yes some people might be able to temporarily accumulate beyond the official caps.
As with other employers in California, leave that can be used for any purpose is considered earned compensation when accrued and must be cashed out upon separation. Official options are to directly receive a payment or to have the payment transferred to a SavingsPlus retirement account. It is not uncommon for employees to burn through their leave at the end of their employment, remaining an employee on the books but using up (at least some of) their compensable leave before officially separating from employment (this would be subject to the same approval process that any vacation would require). Unused sick leave can be converted to service credit in the retirement system but cannot be cashed out.
EDIT: I just checked at http://eservices.calhr.ca.gov/BenefitsCalculatorExternal/BenefitCalculator.aspx - It looks like for Kaiser HMO/Delta Dental Basic/Vision it will cost $447 for a family (they don't specify how many so it seems like 3 or more and they don't increase the cost or state contribution amount. At my current company, for the same coverage I'm roughly paying around $420/mo AND I am able to contribute to an FSA and HSA. So unless I'm missing something, it seems the state health/dental/vision benefits actually aren't that great especially compared to county, where they give you a much more generous voucher.
Yes, state medical plans are priced as 1) employee only, 2) employee + 1 dependent, 3) family (employee + all dependents).
If you can contribute to a HSA, then your deductibles has to be higher than the state plans.
You are correct, that county plan does sound more generous than the state plan.
Or if, like me, you quit for a couple of years and then get re-hired back with the state. I left for 2 years to FIRE and travel (36 - 38) then they asked me to come back and I did for 4 years and went right back into the pension system and my 457 until I quit again at 42.
The state does tend to be an easier employer to return to. My mother worked for the state before becoming a SAHM. Three decades later, she needed to return to the workforce and her prior state service made it relatively easy to get a job with the state again. She had cashed out her pension, but was able to buy back the credit (somehow borrowed against her pension payment, but resulting in a higher overall payment - I'm not clear on the details and don't know if the same options are afforded to people that start in the pension system today).
As I said before, retirement medical benefits are only available after 10 years of service and pro-rated based on years of service until 20 years of service. They also depend on starting retirement within a few months of separating from service with medical benefits. I didn't start the FIRE path early enough to expect to reach FI before age 50, so I will likely retire with pension and medical benefit rather than delay the pension to increase the payment amount (but losing the medical benefit). Of course if I did separate and not take the pension, I could attempt to reinstate prior to starting the pension to reestablish the medical benefit.
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Thanks all. I think I'm having trouble weighing all the pros and cons, especially as it relates to the 'vested' benefits of working for the state, which makes it a little harder to do an apples-to-apples comparison. But summarizing, it sounds like in the short-term private sector generally seems better in terms of higher pay (and benefits can be good too) and in particular for pursuing FIRE. But over the long-haul government seems to give you better assurance that you'll be 'taken care of' even throughout retirement IF you stick around long enough. So if I'm 40 now and concede to pushing my FIRE date back to at least 50 and anywhere to 60 committing to work for the govt, I won't have to worry much about healthcare (and major health issues that could arise) or my salary too much (assuming I don't seek to live the high life lol).
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Regarding the two days of vacation/pto per weekmonth, my friend who works for the state said you can accumulate these and not use them and have them count towards some sort of credit?
Enforcement of the 640 hour cap on compensable leave might only look at vacation/annual leave balances. The rules say that the "Personal Leave Program 2020" credits must be used before vacation/annual leave, but yes some people might be able to temporarily accumulate beyond the official caps.
As with other employers in California, leave that can be used for any purpose is considered earned compensation when accrued and must be cashed out upon separation. Official options are to directly receive a payment or to have the payment transferred to a SavingsPlus retirement account. It is not uncommon for employees to burn through their leave at the end of their employment, remaining an employee on the books but using up (at least some of) their compensable leave before officially separating from employment (this would be subject to the same approval process that any vacation would require). Unused sick leave can be converted to service credit in the retirement system but cannot be cashed out.
EDIT: I just checked at http://eservices.calhr.ca.gov/BenefitsCalculatorExternal/BenefitCalculator.aspx - It looks like for Kaiser HMO/Delta Dental Basic/Vision it will cost $447 for a family (they don't specify how many so it seems like 3 or more and they don't increase the cost or state contribution amount. At my current company, for the same coverage I'm roughly paying around $420/mo AND I am able to contribute to an FSA and HSA. So unless I'm missing something, it seems the state health/dental/vision benefits actually aren't that great especially compared to county, where they give you a much more generous voucher.
Yes, state medical plans are priced as 1) employee only, 2) employee + 1 dependent, 3) family (employee + all dependents).
If you can contribute to a HSA, then your deductibles has to be higher than the state plans.
You are correct, that county plan does sound more generous than the state plan.
Or if, like me, you quit for a couple of years and then get re-hired back with the state. I left for 2 years to FIRE and travel (36 - 38) then they asked me to come back and I did for 4 years and went right back into the pension system and my 457 until I quit again at 42.
The state does tend to be an easier employer to return to. My mother worked for the state before becoming a SAHM. Three decades later, she needed to return to the workforce and her prior state service made it relatively easy to get a job with the state again. She had cashed out her pension, but was able to buy back the credit (somehow borrowed against her pension payment, but resulting in a higher overall payment - I'm not clear on the details and don't know if the same options are afforded to people that start in the pension system today).
As I said before, retirement medical benefits are only available after 10 years of service and pro-rated based on years of service until 20 years of service. They also depend on starting retirement within a few months of separating from service with medical benefits. I didn't start the FIRE path early enough to expect to reach FI before age 50, so I will likely retire with pension and medical benefit rather than delay the pension to increase the payment amount (but losing the medical benefit). Of course if I did separate and not take the pension, I could attempt to reinstate prior to starting the pension to reestablish the medical benefit.
Yeah my work "break" after 6 years at the state job (30 to 36) messed up my eligibility to get retiree medical at a fairly early age. And just couldn't do another 10 plus years the second time around as was already FI. Oh well, messed up but had other options after using up COBRA. In hindsight I would have stayed working continuiously, still retired fairly young but with medical and a much larger pension at 50 (mine's about $900/month which is larger then my lower income 10-year pension would be because of military service credit buy back). Getting asked to come back to work was more a factor of having all the right qualifications, clearences and certifications required for my (weird) state job which are very hard to get and often take several years on the job to obtain.
For the OP I think, given your age, no desire to RE, and family requirements (want to live somewhere specific for kids education), you'd be best staying in the public sector and continue to sock away the bigger bucks. That will give you more flexibility with you job, finances and life.
Thanks for the feedback. Do you think it would ever make sense to move to govt? I guess I'll keep looking for public but it feels a bit hopeless at the moment because I feel like most of the positions I'd want to go after I'm underqualified for. I've posted elsewhere about this but if I feel like if can't keep the "status quo" with current work and have to constantly worry about upskilling and additional training/education, I might just want a career change (to what, I have no idea). I guess this is where I have to try to adapt or whatever.
With the govt position I'm applying/interviewing for, I think I'd be at least getting more hands-on with infosec tools and concepts I haven't used or applied in a long time. So the trade-off there (in terms of the lower pay) is getting that experience back and hopefully gaining more through "on the job training." In the long-run, it could potentially benefit me in terms of being more marketable and mobile as far as moving back to infosec in the private sector or even getting into higher level infosec positions with the state, gov, county, etc... but the whole point about there being stigma working for the state and coming over to the private sector is concerning. I wonder if this is as much of a problem though with tech in particular (especially infosec) as with other fields.
Also, I'd get the stigma issue being a concern if you were public from the get-go and then tried going to private but what if you were in the private sector for a long time, then jumped to state for however long, and then tried to go back to private? I would *think* there wouldn't be as much stigma there... maybe the longer you're with state/public the harder it is to get out in general?
Then again, RE is a nice proposition and I don't know how much longer I'd prefer to keep working. Right now, I think it's just not viable for me to retire early though with our intention to stay in the immediate HCOL area, especially if we were to get a home. I mean, we could keep saving up for an all cash buy but I don't know if that's such a great idea either.
BTW: I big reason I'm entertaining this is because someone else in another thread here I started recommended a state job (for the benefits and 'supplemental' pay) if I intend to Barista FIRE.
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Well, I just had the interview. It went pretty well overall, except TWICE (once at the beginning of the interview and once at the end) they asked me if I'd be willing to relocate to Sacramento :T
I actually asked, at the end of the interview, how the telework situation has been and what they expect it to look like in the future. The response was canned: "It's under the direction of the state" and then I asked if they have found the telework situation to be positively or negatively impacting productivity. The hiring manager said "it has been positive" so he was fine with it. The consulting manager (who was a long-time state employee and was brought back on a consultancy basis to help with this team) immediately asked "so would you be willing to relocate to Sacramento?"
I said it is open to consideration and I need to check with my wife to be fair LOL. I tried to make it seem like I was open but it probably sounded more like a "No" so we'll see.
The work they were describing actually sounded pretty engaging and with a lot of things needed to be done. At the same time, one of the non-technical interview questions was: "describe your experience working on a team. how would you resolve issues or work with difficult coworkers?" or something along those lines - I feel like that could be a red flag. The current position I'm in they asked me the same exact question and after I took the job I learned very quickly that the lead developer was AWFUL. Eventually he got pushed out of the role and into another group because of how much of a jerk he was but he was super dismissive of nearly everything and always felt the need to be the dissenting voice in the room (not to mention the guy with jokes that nobody else thought were funny)
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At the same time, one of the non-technical interview questions was: "describe your experience working on a team. how would you resolve issues or work with difficult coworkers?" or something along those lines - I feel like that could be a red flag.
I wouldn't read too much into this, probably just a question they found it in some interview question list. It does not necessarily mean the team already has a difficult coworker on it.
I don't know what you should expect about telework. Before COVID, telework was unavailable for most positions. Decisions to make changes usually take a long time in government, so for the most part everyone is has been doing "emergency" telework for the past year and does not know if it will continue after social distancing is ended. I expect that many positions will be allowed to telework at least part time - there would be obvious advantages to the state to reduce the office space requirements.
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At the same time, one of the non-technical interview questions was: "describe your experience working on a team. how would you resolve issues or work with difficult coworkers?" or something along those lines - I feel like that could be a red flag.
I wouldn't read too much into this, probably just a question they found it in some interview question list. It does not necessarily mean the team already has a difficult coworker on it.
I don't know what you should expect about telework. Before COVID, telework was unavailable for most positions. Decisions to make changes usually take a long time in government, so for the most part everyone is has been doing "emergency" telework for the past year and does not know if it will continue after social distancing is ended. I expect that many positions will be allowed to telework at least part time - there would be obvious advantages to the state to reduce the office space requirements.
True, maybe my experience with having a really bad coworker after being interviewed (and that question asked) and getting the job was just coincidental. My peer (who has been in the field for a decade longer than I have) and I both agree that he was the *worst* coworker we have ever dealt with in our careers. I'm sure that's an exception....lol
I sort of got the feeling that they were implying that they won't go any further with me if I won't consider relocation. They were really trying to probe for this up front. Makes sense. But given the nature of the work that was described as well as how a majority of what they're doing is virtualized or in the cloud (not to mention the purpose of the group: to provide "digital services"), it would also make sense to me that this department (of the many) would actually push harder and vouch for teleworking or at least flex options. Anyway, we'll see what comes of it. I'm not expecting or hoping for much and will frankly be surprised if I get an offer. And even then, I'm still deliberating taking the paycut if I do get it.
In the meantime, I've been applying for other positions rather aggressively.
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I sort of got the feeling that they were implying that they won't go any further with me if I won't consider relocation. They were really trying to probe for this up front. Makes sense. But given the nature of the work that was described as well as how a majority of what they're doing is virtualized or in the cloud (not to mention the purpose of the group: to provide "digital services"), it would also make sense to me that this department (of the many) would actually push harder and vouch for teleworking or at least flex options.
I'm sure that there will be a lot more flex options going forward. Not sure about 100% telework though. Nearly all of my work can be done remotely and my team has moved into a space that cannot accommodate the entire team at once, but my management has decided that a weekly physical presence is still expected.
"Digital services" still need hardware somewhere to provide them (not that hardware support is necessarily part of the position you applied to, or even performed by the agency you applied to - could be outsourced to OTECH).
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I sort of got the feeling that they were implying that they won't go any further with me if I won't consider relocation. They were really trying to probe for this up front. Makes sense. But given the nature of the work that was described as well as how a majority of what they're doing is virtualized or in the cloud (not to mention the purpose of the group: to provide "digital services"), it would also make sense to me that this department (of the many) would actually push harder and vouch for teleworking or at least flex options.
I'm sure that there will be a lot more flex options going forward. Not sure about 100% telework though. Nearly all of my work can be done remotely and my team has moved into a space that cannot accommodate the entire team at once, but my management has decided that a weekly physical presence is still expected.
"Digital services" still need hardware somewhere to provide them (not that hardware support is necessarily part of the position you applied to, or even performed by the agency you applied to - could be outsourced to OTECH).
Yea, we're having the same problem at the company I currently work for. Pre-covid they were talking about this "back to office co-location" plan and seemed to be ignoring the fact that nearly ALL of their office spaces and hubs were at max capacity. I think a lot of it has to do with the old school mentality of "showing up" to work - the older generation of employees sees it as a necessity and better than telework. I think there's a stigma about teleworking where anyone who teleworks is just slacking off the whole time.
Yea, I get that hardware support is still needed. The older gentleman who was asking me questions, at some point had asked/confirmed if I was physically in front of a terminal when I was responding to an incident while answering one of their questions. The truth is, data centers are slowly becoming obsolete. If what I was told is true about this department building a new app "from scratch" and it's cloud-based, then the amount of physical presence in front of terminals is going to decline substantially. And if they do have the need for anyone to physically access a terminal, I'd imagine they want a lower tier analyst to be responsible for that with phone in hand. *Maybe* that's what they're viewing this position as but to me ITS I seems more mid-level. I would think they'd want to get a dedicated ITA to be the eyes and ears for that stuff. But having no familiarity with how the state works, I can't really give much input there haha
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I would think they'd want to get a dedicated ITA to be the eyes and ears for that stuff. But having no familiarity with how the state works, I can't really give much input there haha
I'm pretty sure that our desktop support people are mostly IT Associates (some may even be IT Technicians) - but I don't know for sure if the same is true in the server rooms. I'd like to work my way into an IT Specialist I role (I'm not currently in an IT classification).
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I do think hiring on younger works best from a pension prospective otherwise the pay in the private sector is likely to outweigh the benefits of a shorter term public sector pension.
For a career split between public and private sector, I think it might be a tossup. Reaching retirement age in the state job has the advantage of retiring with benefits. On the other hand, pay differential between public and private probably tends to widen with career experience. Theoretically, the most advantageous might be to get most of your government service early in your career, go to private sector for money in the middle career, then go back to the government system to establish a high final salary as basis for the pension and activate medical benefits.
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The question about dealing with a difficult coworker is common. We ask it in every interview.
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The question about dealing with a difficult coworker is common. We ask it in every interview.
I figure it would be a "common" question where you're looking for more of the social-behavioral response from the candidate. Honestly, I don't recall ever being asked that question at prior jobs. It's funny how that "worked out" at my current place though where we actually did have an extremely difficult coworker that we had to work with.
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The question about dealing with a difficult coworker is common. We ask it in every interview.
I figure it would be a "common" question where you're looking for more of the social-behavioral response from the candidate. Honestly, I don't recall ever being asked that question at prior jobs. It's funny how that "worked out" at my current place though where we actually did have an extremely difficult coworker that we had to work with.
You wouldn't believe the number of people who say "I've never had conflicts at work". Which means they are either the problem (and oblivious to it) or lying.
Any answer along the lines of "here is a situation, and I dealt with it by communication or cooperation or asking for help" is fine.
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The question about dealing with a difficult coworker is common. We ask it in every interview.
I figure it would be a "common" question where you're looking for more of the social-behavioral response from the candidate. Honestly, I don't recall ever being asked that question at prior jobs. It's funny how that "worked out" at my current place though where we actually did have an extremely difficult coworker that we had to work with.
You wouldn't believe the number of people who say "I've never had conflicts at work". Which means they are either the problem (and oblivious to it) or lying.
Any answer along the lines of "here is a situation, and I dealt with it by communication or cooperation or asking for help" is fine.
Places in the past didn't always ask that but I of course ran into difficult people to work with. My answer usually involves talking about the issue and trying to understand the overall intent and goal and getting on the same page or at least arriving to that goal/intent. If not, then I'll talk about escalating to a manager to help mediate and come to an agreement. In any case, I would expect that if I'm being asked that question I should also expect for there to be at least one or more people who are pretty difficult to work with haha. Better safe than sorry I suppose LOL
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OK, so aside from working to try to get or maximize pension and health retirement benefits offered by the state... would any of you (current or former state/fed/gov employees) actually recommend working in the public sector in the context of Coast or Barista FIRE particularly for the 'stability' along with the health benefits, etc *while* gainfully employed there (at least until you're actually ready to fully quit and retire)?
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According to Mr. Google there's at least one dual immersion Mandarin program in Sacramento. Have you looked into it? If this is an option then the state job w/ relocation to Sac is, IMO, a no-brainer. Much lower cost of living (modest houses within $350-400k). Job security. Lower stress. Good potential for short/easy commute. Easy access to Tahoe, wine country, lakes, SF Bay Area, and the rest of NorCal, and the ocean isn't *that* far away. Sac is an interesting city, and the downtown has recently experienced a renaissance as people have spilled over from the Bay Area.
The biggest downside I can think of is the pay cut. And there may be some truth to how this impacts "upward mobility." But why do you care if you're seriously considering Coast or Barista FIRE? Give the state thing a try for a few years in Sac, if you don't like it then you're already in a LCOL area so Coast/Barista FIRE becomes that much easier.
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According to Mr. Google there's at least one dual immersion Mandarin program in Sacramento. Have you looked into it? If this is an option then the state job w/ relocation to Sac is, IMO, a no-brainer. Much lower cost of living (modest houses within $350-400k). Job security. Lower stress. Good potential for short/easy commute. Easy access to Tahoe, wine country, lakes, SF Bay Area, and the rest of NorCal, and the ocean isn't *that* far away. Sac is an interesting city, and the downtown has recently experienced a renaissance as people have spilled over from the Bay Area.
The biggest downside I can think of is the pay cut. And there may be some truth to how this impacts "upward mobility." But why do you care if you're seriously considering Coast or Barista FIRE? Give the state thing a try for a few years in Sac, if you don't like it then you're already in a LCOL area so Coast/Barista FIRE becomes that much easier.
I saw they have MIP at one school there but doesn't go through HS. I've also heard some iffy things about the Sacramento school district too from a couple state employees who reside up there: "The Sacramento Unified School District is in constant crisis- funding shortfalls, teacher layoffs and strikes, etc." - that doesn't sound very reassuring. Everything else about the area seems like it could work but the note on education is concerning.
That said, I haven't heard anything back about the position I applied and interviewed for up there. I think they picked up on the vibe that I wasn't keen about uprooting and moving up there. I don't know how office work is for the state, but it may end up being a decision I regret especially having been WFH for so long. I don't know... maybe I need to become a full-time Youtuber LOL.
On a serious note: if I can find a state/county position local to my area, that's going to be the first priority I think.
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OK, so aside from working to try to get or maximize pension and health retirement benefits offered by the state... would any of you (current or former state/fed/gov employees) actually recommend working in the public sector in the context of Coast or Barista FIRE particularly for the 'stability' along with the health benefits, etc *while* gainfully employed there (at least until you're actually ready to fully quit and retire)?
Once you work for the state for a year and are off probation, you can pretty much tell them that you're moving down to 32 hours a week or whatever and that's pretty much it. This is in California, anyways. Unless you're in a public safety job, they can't do much about it. There's a limit to what is considered full time, I think 30 or 32 hours, and as long as you don't drop below it, you get full benefits. Your pay is reduced, of course, and that affects your retirement.
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According to Mr. Google there's at least one dual immersion Mandarin program in Sacramento. Have you looked into it? If this is an option then the state job w/ relocation to Sac is, IMO, a no-brainer. Much lower cost of living (modest houses within $350-400k). Job security. Lower stress. Good potential for short/easy commute. Easy access to Tahoe, wine country, lakes, SF Bay Area, and the rest of NorCal, and the ocean isn't *that* far away. Sac is an interesting city, and the downtown has recently experienced a renaissance as people have spilled over from the Bay Area.
The biggest downside I can think of is the pay cut. And there may be some truth to how this impacts "upward mobility." But why do you care if you're seriously considering Coast or Barista FIRE? Give the state thing a try for a few years in Sac, if you don't like it then you're already in a LCOL area so Coast/Barista FIRE becomes that much easier.
I lived in the Sacramento area for 7 years, it total. The weather is rough, especially if you're coming from OC or the Bay Area. 105 degrees in the summertime, and chilly in the wintertime. The air is horrific, especially in fire season, the traffic is very bad, the water is generally well water (at least on the west side) and bad. The schools in Sac are bad, though less so in Penryn or Davis. If I were thinking of moving to Sacramento, I'd keep going up to Reno. Reno is no great shakes, but at least the air is breathable, the water drinkable, and taxes are low. Summers in Reno are better than Sacramento, though the winters are much worse.
If the OP is from OC, and likes OC, they'll hate it. If they want out of OC, it's not a bad place to try out for a few years.
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According to Mr. Google there's at least one dual immersion Mandarin program in Sacramento. Have you looked into it? If this is an option then the state job w/ relocation to Sac is, IMO, a no-brainer. Much lower cost of living (modest houses within $350-400k). Job security. Lower stress. Good potential for short/easy commute. Easy access to Tahoe, wine country, lakes, SF Bay Area, and the rest of NorCal, and the ocean isn't *that* far away. Sac is an interesting city, and the downtown has recently experienced a renaissance as people have spilled over from the Bay Area.
The biggest downside I can think of is the pay cut. And there may be some truth to how this impacts "upward mobility." But why do you care if you're seriously considering Coast or Barista FIRE? Give the state thing a try for a few years in Sac, if you don't like it then you're already in a LCOL area so Coast/Barista FIRE becomes that much easier.
I lived in the Sacramento area for 7 years, it total. The weather is rough, especially if you're coming from OC or the Bay Area. 105 degrees in the summertime, and chilly in the wintertime. The air is horrific, especially in fire season, the traffic is very bad, the water is generally well water (at least on the west side) and bad. The schools in Sac are bad, though less so in Penryn or Davis. If I were thinking of moving to Sacramento, I'd keep going up to Reno. Reno is no great shakes, but at least the air is breathable, the water drinkable, and taxes are low. Summers in Reno are better than Sacramento, though the winters are much worse.
If the OP is from OC, and likes OC, they'll hate it. If they want out of OC, it's not a bad place to try out for a few years.
Thanks for the feedback and reminder about heat in Sacramento :( That was another factor I 'forgot' about haha. I don't do well in the heat... I mean, I suppose I could get used to it but I've been spoiled down in OC with the ocean breezes. I also have sinus/nose/allergy issues (chronic vasomotor rhinitis per a previous doctor) so air quality is a big deal for me... we have some friends (more so acquaintances) who live in the Reno area and they seem to like it up there. But yea, the immersion program is a pretty big deal too. I keep coming thinking about Vancouver, WA through all this... I wonder how working for WA state is haha
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I lived in the Sacramento area for 7 years, it total. The weather is rough, especially if you're coming from OC or the Bay Area. 105 degrees in the summertime, and chilly in the wintertime. The air is horrific, especially in fire season, the traffic is very bad, the water is generally well water (at least on the west side) and bad. The schools in Sac are bad, though less so in Penryn or Davis. If I were thinking of moving to Sacramento, I'd keep going up to Reno. Reno is no great shakes, but at least the air is breathable, the water drinkable, and taxes are low. Summers in Reno are better than Sacramento, though the winters are much worse.
If the OP is from OC, and likes OC, they'll hate it. If they want out of OC, it's not a bad place to try out for a few years.
Like/dislike is not binary, nor is liking OC mutuality exclusive of liking other areas. Life is far more nuanced. I've lived/worked in a handful of very different countries and states. You know what, I've love them all. Not saying they're all equal, some come with certain frustrations/problems that make day-to-day living much less alluring. But what one values is highly personal so rather than like/dislike, real-life usually comes down to a bunch of tradeoffs. Maybe OP values job stability and LCOL and low stress over the OC climate, or maybe not. Only he can decide what best aligns with his values.
Since we're on the topic of climate, IMO this is often overrated, especially within most of the continental US. This is my opinion, not speaking for OP or anyone else. Also not saying it doesn't matter at all, but it's not such a big deal. You just adapt and dress appropriately. Last year we moved from coastal California to the high desert. The amount of hand-wringing we heard about the "terrible" climate was absolutely ridiculous. Yes, it gets hot here, pretty normal to hit 105. But, like Sac, it's a dry heat and quite pleasant. Mornings are amazing even on the hottest days. I bring extra water while mountain biking, and may go earlier to avoid the heat of the day if it's going to be hot, but that's about it. But it also means we wear shorts and flip-flops even late a night, enjoy dinners and drinks in the backyard as the day cools off, swim at the lakes/rivers, enjoy an occasional summer thunder storm, and thoroughly enjoy all summer has to offer. Similar story for winter. Yes, it gets below freezing and we get some snow, but we dress for it, and we do a lot of skiing/sledding/snowshoeing/etc. This doesn't mean I hate the Mediterranean climate we came from, a foggy summer morning will always bring me nostalgically back to my childhood. But we actually prefer the change of seasons every 3 months.
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Most positions have a probation period of 6 or 12 months; during probation you can be let go without cause. After passing probation it is much more difficult to get rid of you. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to get a reduction in time base approved; but once established in the new time base, you'd be pretty safe in assuming you can keep it. Exploring part-time potential for a particular position as an outsider would be difficult, so you'd probably be best off seeking to go part-time only after establishing yourself in a full-time position. There are very few positions that are established and recruited at part-time. To receive state employee medical benefits, the requirement is at least half time.
Sacramento definitely has summer. March, April, and October are usually quite nice here. May through September tend to be hot though much of the day. November through February can be cool and rainy (or not rainy in drought years) with frosty mornings in December and January. I think the heat is manageable. I was born and raised here in a house that did not have central A/C - still living here without it. Most of the time we have high diurnal temperature swings and can pull in cool air at night after the delta breeze kicks in (delta breeze can be somewhat location specific within the region) - a high velocity whole house fan can be very useful here. Yes there are some periods in summer when the delta breeze fails and we hide out in the room with the window AC unit for a few days, but most days we don't run it at all. Fire season air quality problems were an issue last year though - I plan to experiment with air filters in the intake windows in the future. Fire season air quality has gotten pretty bad here in several recent years.
Looks like there are at least 3 schools offering MIP in the Sacramento region (as you said, none past grade 8). K-6 at William Land Elementary in Sacramento City Unified, K-8 at Sacramento Mandarin School (a charter school), K-5 at Buckeye Union in El Dorado Hills (significant commute to downtown).
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Potential development here but my current manager just texted me asking if I had given his info to someone as a referral for me. He mentioned that he got a VM about a referral but spelled the hiring manager's name wrong. So I'm pretty sure it's the same person who I interviewed with though. It's a bit complicated of a backstory but I asked my manager if I could use him as a referral a month ago when I was not reporting to him (he was a prior manager at that point in time). In the past week he brought me back into his group.
Anyway, it sounds like the hiring manager for that position I applied for is now pinging the contacts I listed down as referrals. So they may very well be moving forward with extending an offer.
This would come as a large paycut (currently I'm at $140k and I'd be going down to $108k) and I also have a feeling they'll be pushing to relocate me to Sacramento... perhaps not in the immediate or near term but "as soon as things open back up" which could be within the year or so.
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At your current pay I'd probably wouldn't move to Sacraghetto - well I wouldn't.move.there for any amount of pay and that's were.most of my extended family is. Weather is not to my liking at all. While I don't love the OC even on the coast, I really dislike Sac. But YMMV. Since my family is from Auburn area (much nicer) and there are many very nice areas close to Sac but too far to commute, you may be able to do some kind of flex-time thing and live close enough to.go to Sac once a week or so and WFH the rest of the time. I believe lots of state office jobs offer this kind of thing. The beauty if a state or fed job is that you'll be eligible for jobs anywhere in the state and an insider track for current employees looking to lateral. So even if Sac isn't ideal you may be able to relocate elsewhere.
Sacraghetto! LOL - one of my old college roommates lived in Rancho Cordova and I never heard him raving about how great it was up there haha.
I think we would probably dislike it up there as well. I never got the greatest 'feeling' about that area, having lived up in the Bay Area (Alameda). I don't think my parents would have enjoyed living in that area either. Normally, I'd say that we might be open to moving to the Bay Area and being closer to my side of the family but A) it would be near my family (lol) B) it would be closer to my brother in law (my wife has a complicated/semi-dysfunctional relationship with him and would prefer not to keep in touch with him but only does so out of familial obligation) and C) home prices are even more insane there than they are here.
I was thinking about the 'flex' situation you describe though - I *might* be willing to travel up there once a quarter or so for a few days to a week each time but 1) the pay cut would still feel burdensome and 2) they'd need to pay for my airfare lol.
BTW: you said "at your current pay I wouldn't move to Sacraghetto" - IF they were to allow me to continue WFH in OC (maybe with the stipulation that I go in once a quarter or so) would you still not be inclined to go for it based on the pay cut issue? The more I think of it the more I cringe. In terms of lateral mobility that's appealing but I would eventually want to work the salary back into the higher range too. So if, practically, this might just mean "taking a pay cut for 2-3 years" that might be more reasonable.
At the same time, I don't know how much longer I'll have at my current place either.... kinda feels like a toss-up.
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My brother and someone else pointed out it was a bad idea to list my manager as a reference just because things could get awkward. The thing is, when I asked him to be a reference that was when I wasn't reporting to him - he knew prior to this that I wasn't happy with the team I was on and that I wanted out. I actually asked him to consider me if there were any vacancies on his team and he did at some point (it didn't pan out because the move was blocked at a higher level). Not to mention the current state of the company - things have really gone down the drain and a lot of people have been jumping ship to other places or are playing "keep alive" as long as possible. I think he understands the position I'm in because he likely doesn't feel very at ease himself. He and I have a very good working relationship and have built good rapport over the past 5 years. We also have a very good personal relationship - most of our 1x1s would revolve around discussions around family life, sports, etc... things most friends would talk about. It was like 20-25mins of personal talk and 5-10 minutes of work updates/talk. So admittedly, I have felt very comfortable being candid and open with him - there's a pretty high level of trust there. Honestly, I don't think this will negatively impact things much if at all now that I'm back under his wing. He has always exemplified the traits of a good manager who supports his employees in various ways.
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BTW: you said "at your current pay I wouldn't move to Sacraghetto" - IF they were to allow me to continue WFH in OC (maybe with the stipulation that I go in once a quarter or so) would you still not be inclined to go for it based on the pay cut issue? The more I think of it the more I cringe. In terms of lateral mobility that's appealing but I would eventually want to work the salary back into the higher range too. So if, practically, this might just mean "taking a pay cut for 2-3 years" that might be more reasonable.
At the same time, I don't know how much longer I'll have at my current place either.... kinda feels like a toss-up.
The rate you mention sounds like the top of the IT Specialist I pay, so increasing your pay would likely require promoting to another position. If you did negotiate 100% telework for this position, you might find yourself needing to renegotiate similar terms for each promotion. If you move up through the IT classifications to IT Manager II promoting every other year, you'd get back to your current pay rate in 6-8 years.
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BTW: you said "at your current pay I wouldn't move to Sacraghetto" - IF they were to allow me to continue WFH in OC (maybe with the stipulation that I go in once a quarter or so) would you still not be inclined to go for it based on the pay cut issue? The more I think of it the more I cringe. In terms of lateral mobility that's appealing but I would eventually want to work the salary back into the higher range too. So if, practically, this might just mean "taking a pay cut for 2-3 years" that might be more reasonable.
At the same time, I don't know how much longer I'll have at my current place either.... kinda feels like a toss-up.
The rate you mention sounds like the top of the IT Specialist I pay, so increasing your pay would likely require promoting to another position. If you did negotiate 100% telework for this position, you might find yourself needing to renegotiate similar terms for each promotion. If you move up through the IT classifications to IT Manager II promoting every other year, you'd get back to your current pay rate in 6-8 years.
Yea, I think top of range was right around $9k per month (outside of the current pay reductions). Of course, factoring in overtime and benefits I don't know what that number might look like as it relates to total pay/compensation but possibly up to an additional 10%~
How realistic/difficult is it to get that kind of promotion every other year btw? That seems quite aggressive...
If I were to factor the company covered portion of health coverage, 401k match, HSA and other profit sharing, this would add a little bit more than what I quoted too.
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How realistic/difficult is it to get that kind of promotion every other year btw? That seems quite aggressive...
It does seem quite aggressive. I wouldn't plan on it. You'd probably have to be both very good and very lucky to promote that quickly. I just put it out there as a "best case" scenario to getting back to your current pay; it would not be taking a pay cut for 2-3 years; you'd be taking a permanent pay cut that might get less deep over time but would basically always be below your current pay.
I find Sacramento a nice enough place to live. The ocean and the mountains are both close enough for day trips. Traffic and cost of living aren't as horrible as the bay area and southern California. But nothing really makes me think it would be the right fit for you unless you're primarily looking to go to a lower cost of living so that you can afford to take a pay cut into a lower stress job.
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How realistic/difficult is it to get that kind of promotion every other year btw? That seems quite aggressive...
It does seem quite aggressive. I wouldn't plan on it. You'd probably have to be both very good and very lucky to promote that quickly. I just put it out there as a "best case" scenario to getting back to your current pay; it would not be taking a pay cut for 2-3 years; you'd be taking a permanent pay cut that might get less deep over time but would basically always be below your current pay.
I find Sacramento a nice enough place to live. The ocean and the mountains are both close enough for day trips. Traffic and cost of living aren't as horrible as the bay area and southern California. But nothing really makes me think it would be the right fit for you unless you're primarily looking to go to a lower cost of living so that you can afford to take a pay cut into a lower stress job.
Ah ok. Thanks for the insight.
Yea, I think I'd sort of be jumping the gun to sacrifice on quality of life when I don't even know what's going on with the current job - I could be "safe" for all I know now that I've been brought back into the fold of my prior manager (whom I have a great relationship with). My job, currently as-is, is about as low stress as it can get (this wasn't the case in the first couple years though), although the stress levels could go up now that they've effectively reduced the size of the team. If I had the option to stick it out and had the confidence that it would be stable enough to where I could be a lifer, I would - I was hoping to retire/early retire here but the current state of affairs has given a different outlook in that regard.
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Yea, I think I'd sort of be jumping the gun to sacrifice on quality of life when I don't even know what's going on with the current job - I could be "safe" for all I know now that I've been brought back into the fold of my prior manager (whom I have a great relationship with). My job, currently as-is, is about as low stress as it can get (this wasn't the case in the first couple years though), although the stress levels could go up now that they've effectively reduced the size of the team. If I had the option to stick it out and had the confidence that it would be stable enough to where I could be a lifer, I would - I was hoping to retire/early retire here but the current state of affairs has given a different outlook in that regard.
Sounds to me like you have the skills needed to be able to get a job reasonably quickly if the need arises. Of course losing a job would be stressful for anyone, but have you thought much about why you are concerned about job security? A good emergency fund should provide much more security than any job can.
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Yea, I think I'd sort of be jumping the gun to sacrifice on quality of life when I don't even know what's going on with the current job - I could be "safe" for all I know now that I've been brought back into the fold of my prior manager (whom I have a great relationship with). My job, currently as-is, is about as low stress as it can get (this wasn't the case in the first couple years though), although the stress levels could go up now that they've effectively reduced the size of the team. If I had the option to stick it out and had the confidence that it would be stable enough to where I could be a lifer, I would - I was hoping to retire/early retire here but the current state of affairs has given a different outlook in that regard.
Sounds to me like you have the skills needed to be able to get a job reasonably quickly if the need arises. Of course losing a job would be stressful for anyone, but have you thought much about why you are concerned about job security? A good emergency fund should provide much more security than any job can.
It could be imposter syndrome but I don't feel that way at all... I feel quite the opposite - this is the only interview/position I've been able to get and I've sent my resume out for more than a dozen other positions. What I'd much rather do aside from all of this is ultimately just work for myself or figure out how to generate a large portion of the income I'm at now via side hustles. Of course, that feels like a bit of a pipe dream since I have no clue how to get there.
The job security thing is really just closely tied with wanting to continue living in the current HCOL area (primarily here for the schooling and locale) and eventually/hopefully trying to purchase a home around here.
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Update: they extended the offer to me but provided no details about the salary, benefits or telework/relocation situation. I inquired back requesting for more information on all of those items.
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Congratulations on the offer, I hope if you don't take it that it gives you confidence that there are jobs out there for you if you end up leaving your current one.
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As someone who has spent the last 10 years in Sacramento, some of these comments are pretty extreme especially for those based on hear-say. There are good and bad neighborhoods here like any other large metropolitan area. Can’t escape the heat in the summer though.
Working for a government agency is my worst nightmare though, so nothing to say on that topic.
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Congratulations on the offer, I hope if you don't take it that it gives you confidence that there are jobs out there for you if you end up leaving your current one.
BTW: you said "at your current pay I wouldn't move to Sacraghetto" - IF they were to allow me to continue WFH in OC (maybe with the stipulation that I go in once a quarter or so) would you still not be inclined to go for it based on the pay cut issue? The more I think of it the more I cringe. In terms of lateral mobility that's appealing but I would eventually want to work the salary back into the higher range too. So if, practically, this might just mean "taking a pay cut for 2-3 years" that might be more reasonable.
At the same time, I don't know how much longer I'll have at my current place either.... kinda feels like a toss-up.
The rate you mention sounds like the top of the IT Specialist I pay, so increasing your pay would likely require promoting to another position. If you did negotiate 100% telework for this position, you might find yourself needing to renegotiate similar terms for each promotion. If you move up through the IT classifications to IT Manager II promoting every other year, you'd get back to your current pay rate in 6-8 years.
I have a friend who was an IT guy for Caltrans and lived in Sac (he is the one who named it Sacroghetto) and he had to make a lateral move within the state to earn a higher salary. Its very common for public employees to be at the top of their pay scale for years and years (forever) unless they transition to a different position.
As for me, who worked all over the state until I advanced to a higher level, I was much less concerned about the pay then I was about the job (gotta like what I did) and the location and would have taken a big pay cut to have those. So no, living in Sac (which really isn't terrible) for even higher pay wouldn't have been appealing at all. Again YMMV.
Congrats on the offer too. What does your spouse and kids think about it? That's a big factor imho. If possible, you should take a short trip up there to check it out
Some nice communities nearby and interesting places.
Thanks - she's really not interested at all. A big factor is that we have no immediate family there. My family would be in the Bay Area which isn't that far but then we'd be leaving my in-laws behind down here. My wife is hesitant on us moving in light of this because it would mean that we're either "ditching" them or that we have to convince them to move and leave their social network (all of their friends are in SoCal).
I'm still waiting on hearing back from the hiring manager about my questions though regarding what the actual salary/pay will be as well as if relocation is going to be required. I also wanted to ask him about what the hours look like and if I'd be exempt or non-exempt. If OT is a thing, then it might be worth considering. Of course, I don't really do a lot of OT in my current position/salary. I'm torn about the idea of leaving my current group now that my prior manager (who I really like) pulled me back onto his team but the overarching concerns of where upper management and the company as a whole are heading is a bit worrisome (e.g. even though I was moved to what I think is a more 'protected/shielded' place, that may not mean a whole lot if upper management is making hardline top-down decisions)
Confidence wise, I feel mixed about it - good that I was able to get an offer but imposter syndrome still kicking in telling me I applied for a position that I'd be "settling" on since the pay and rank are less.
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I agree, it's worth a short visit to check things out. Plus some 'puter time researching neighborhoods potential employment location(s), etc.
Not sure what you're looking for, but I see older close-in neighborhoods like Oak Park (https://www.inman.com/2021/03/29/americas-hottest-neighborhoods-oak-park-in-sacramento-california/) and many others that are probably even more affordable (e.g. not one of the "hottest neighborhoods"), with the potential for almost no commute, nice parks, walkable/bikeable, and in striking distance to downtown. I would be all over that because it's my jam. But if you prefer further out in the 'burbs there's even more of that, and much cheaper.
Schools, air quality, crime, climate, commute... these are all about quality of life, and it matters, so do your homework. But at the same time, be aware that there's a long history of snobbery from coastal areas. A lot of the stereotypes about the Central Valley are dated or exaggerated. Sometimes I think coastal elites transited through the worst part of Merced during a summer heat wave on their way to Yosemite and extrapolated from that that the entire CV is terrible, or "the armpit of California" as I often heard. All things considered it may not be a good fit for you, but IMO it's to your detriment to summarily reject it as an option without giving it a fair shake.
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Aren't you FI already? Or maybe lean FI? I think you said you were and working primarily to be busy or for benefits. If that's the case then does it matter if you accept or not prior to your current job ending (which it may not). Why not just stay in.the OC at your current job, keep renting and stash the extra rather then buy in this crazy housing market, and then, if your job does end eventually, make a decision then. You'll have tons of options to move to a LCOL area or even stay put in OC and "do nothing" for awhile but enjoy some down time until you find an ideal CoastFIRE job in an ideal location where your kids can go to immersion school. If you are in Irvine or close by (or any of the Asian American communities around here) your kids will have a much greater opportunity to learn Mandarin then in other places.
I technically am FI but if we were to purchase a home, even after waiting for things to settle down, I don't think that would be the case or it would put a pretty big dent in the overall timeline. I keep saying I'd like to FIRE whenever possible and before 50... I'm sort of leaning towards what you're saying though as far as sticking it out and riding the current job till it ends (if it does). I suppose I can afford to be 'picky' about the job hunt at the current moment since I'm still gainfully employed. Although, a lot of ppl tell me it's more stressful looking for a job while unemployed. I'm not sure about that - that's probably if you don't have any funds to live off of.
My wife has the expectation that I need to work/provide income and she's willing to chip in but is really depending on me to take on the bulk of it. I told her that if we want to buy a home, especially, she's going to probably need to pickup more side gigs/income to help with that unless I get some crazy promotion or opportunity where I'm making a lot more than where I'm at now.
Another factor at play here is deciding whether or not to try for a 3rd kid. Doing so I think will be another 'lifestyle' shakeup and things will only get more expensive. Everyone keeps saying just to be content with two but I've always known I wanted at least 3 kids from the get-go. We're currently down in Laguna Niguel and actually moved out of Irvine. Bergeson is the immersion school the kids will be at. We learned this year that Irvine started up a Mandarin charter school too; I guess we could have waited around for that but either way I wanted to get out of our old condo too. It would have been hard buying a place even in Irvine had we decided to stay! I tend to like a lot of the newer homes in our immediate area (Rancho Niguel) and prices were actually 'reasonable' to where I think we could have rolled the funds from the condo directly over to something here and taken a smaller/reasonable loan out on a bigger place. We decided to rent though to feel things out and not overcommit, and so of course the timing had to work out where the housing prices were accelerated and pushed us out.
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We have friends who live in Fair Oaks (a suburb of Sacramento) and they love it. Older rambling home, larger yard, space for a deck, an in-ground pool, established trees.
Shopping is in malls, and it's not what I would consider "walkable" - things are indeed spread out a bit. But access to Tahoe, the Bay Area, and an up-and-coming airport have made it a good move for them. They came up ~ 5 years ago from Ventura County, and have adapted well.
They moved from an 1100 SF 3 Brm/2Ba townhome with a tiny yard, to a 2500 SF, 4 Brm, 3.5 Bath single family home, purchased for $390k (now Redfin is showing $605k value).
I think it's a doable move, but family matters, and there's no denying that a SoCal coastal town is a different vibe from Sacramento.
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Update on the offer: I just got a response back from the hiring manager again and he's basically saying that HR has to review my credentials and experience to determine salary before giving me a number. I think he wants me to commit to the offer before knowing the number which would seem like a foolish move on my part. I'm not quite sure how to respond on this. Am I suppose to continue pressing for and asking for the salary amount *without* actually responding with formal acceptance of the offer? e.g. "In order for me to make a decision on accepting the offer, I need the actual salary amount that I would be receiving for this position" ?
As far as the telework situation, he's wanting to talk with me on the phone about it - I'm not really sure what to make of that but it I'm anticipating, and sounds like it could very well be: "you can WFH for now but ultimately the state makes the call and if they institute back to office, you'll have to relocate" - if I took the job, I'd be locked into that expectation and very well might have to move (again, something we're not wanting to do in the near term) else they could probably drop me especially if "back to office" was instituted within a year as I'd be in the probationary period.
EDIT: my friend who works for LA County told me that he didn't know his exact salary number/range until AFTER he signed his paperwork w/ HR. I think it would be risky for me to accept the offer if I am not going to know my salary ahead of time. The low and mid point ranges for ITS I are not going to be ranges I'd be comfortable with currently. I was operating under the assumption that I'd likely qualify for high range but given the 'unknowns' and if it's true that I won't know until after signing in more places I think it's too risky.
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I'm still waiting on hearing back from the hiring manager about my questions though regarding what the actual salary/pay will be as well as if relocation is going to be required. I also wanted to ask him about what the hours look like and if I'd be exempt or non-exempt. If OT is a thing, then it might be worth considering. Of course, I don't really do a lot of OT in my current position/salary.
I'm pretty sure IT Specialist series classifications are non-exempt. In most cases, OT is rare in state jobs, but the description you provided earlier sounded like this could be an exception.
Not sure what you're looking for, but I see older close-in neighborhoods like Oak Park (https://www.inman.com/2021/03/29/americas-hottest-neighborhoods-oak-park-in-sacramento-california/) and many others that are probably even more affordable (e.g. not one of the "hottest neighborhoods"), with the potential for almost no commute, nice parks, walkable/bikeable, and in striking distance to downtown. I would be all over that because it's my jam. But if you prefer further out in the 'burbs there's even more of that, and much cheaper.
Oak Park used to be part of "Sacroghetto", but has been gentrifying significantly in recent years (particularly North and Central Oak Park; the further away from downtown and UC Davis Med Center the less the impact of gentrification).
Although, a lot of ppl tell me it's more stressful looking for a job while unemployed. I'm not sure about that - that's probably if you don't have any funds to live off of.
Worrying about how to pay the bills is very stressful. If you have a 12 month emergency fund and a positive attitude, 3-6 months looking for a job while unemployed shouldn't be too stressful.
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Aren't you FI already? Or maybe lean FI? I think you said you were and working primarily to be busy or for benefits. If that's the case then does it matter if you accept or not prior to your current job ending (which it may not). Why not just stay in.the OC at your current job, keep renting and stash the extra rather then buy in this crazy housing market, and then, if your job does end eventually, make a decision then. You'll have tons of options to move to a LCOL area or even stay put in OC and "do nothing" for awhile but enjoy some down time until you find an ideal CoastFIRE job in an ideal location where your kids can go to immersion school. If you are in Irvine or close by (or any of the Asian American communities around here) your kids will have a much greater opportunity to learn Mandarin then in other places.
I technically am FI but if we were to purchase a home, even after waiting for things to settle down, I don't think that would be the case or it would put a pretty big dent in the overall timeline. I keep saying I'd like to FIRE whenever possible and before 50... I'm sort of leaning towards what you're saying though as far as sticking it out and riding the current job till it ends (if it does). I suppose I can afford to be 'picky' about the job hunt at the current moment since I'm still gainfully employed. Although, a lot of ppl tell me it's more stressful looking for a job while unemployed. I'm not sure about that - that's probably if you don't have any funds to live off of.
My wife has the expectation that I need to work/provide income and she's willing to chip in but is really depending on me to take on the bulk of it. I told her that if we want to buy a home, especially, she's going to probably need to pickup more side gigs/income to help with that unless I get some crazy promotion or opportunity where I'm making a lot more than where I'm at now.
Another factor at play here is deciding whether or not to try for a 3rd kid. Doing so I think will be another 'lifestyle' shakeup and things will only get more expensive. Everyone keeps saying just to be content with two but I've always known I wanted at least 3 kids from the get-go. We're currently down in Laguna Niguel and actually moved out of Irvine. Bergeson is the immersion school the kids will be at. We learned this year that Irvine started up a Mandarin charter school too; I guess we could have waited around for that but either way I wanted to get out of our old condo too. It would have been hard buying a place even in Irvine had we decided to stay! I tend to like a lot of the newer homes in our immediate area (Rancho Niguel) and prices were actually 'reasonable' to where I think we could have rolled the funds from the condo directly over to something here and taken a smaller/reasonable loan out on a bigger place. We decided to rent though to feel things out and not overcommit, and so of course the timing had to work out where the housing prices were accelerated and pushed us out.
Laguna Niguel is very nice (I spent a lot of time working with "The Feds" at the Ziggurat) and there are lots of master planned communities like that on the outskirts of Sac. Of course those places have Mello Roos taxes so they will cost more if you buy in either location. FWIW it does sound like you and your family would be better off staying at your current job and renting just for the flexibility right now. Cheaper then divorce ;-)!
As for the Sac job - definitely get a written pay and step/level quote before agreeing to anything. It's public record anyways so you can look it up yourself. While pay isn't negotiable, which step/grade you start is. If they offer you a start at the bottom you can show you are qualified for the next grade (IT Guy 2 instead of 1) which is generally higher pay and doesn't top out as low. Never a guarantee you'll be offered a promotion to the next grade level unless someone retires or dies and they need a person to fill that spot.
We really like it here - I was wondering what that building was and recently found out :) I applied for a position with the IRS there but not sure what will come of it. I'd be highly inclined to take a position working there though, especially with the IRS. Seems pretty hard to get a foot in the door though.
RE: Mello roos, I don't think I've seen mello roos anywhere around here. For sure they have it in Irvine. I'm wondering if LN used to have mello roos and now that enough time has passed, all requirements for paying it are done. I know it's one of those things that doesn't last forever and generally it's intended for newer communities and developments. I don't think there has been any new construction around here in a while.
So when you say the step/grade you start at is negotiable, practically what would this look like in my situation? Am I to insist that they give me the written quote of the step/grade/level BEFORE I accept anything? It seems like they're kind of pushing back on this. If they do start me low or mid, what would I "show" to justify that I'm qualified? Even then, within each step there are still pretty wide ranges:
$5,562.00 - $7,454.00 A
$6,116.00 - $8,197.00 B
$6,715.00 - $8,999.00 C
I don't think I can afford to take anything less than top of range C, especially if we were looking to buy a home in the next few years or so.
Aside from job stability with the state (of course, my friend at the county doesn't believe state jobs are that stable as he had heard of numerous layoffs), the only 'saving grace' about taking a pay cut with this position is that I'd be working on projects that should sharpen my infosec skills and likely update a lot of them. Current job there's very little on the job "skill upkeep" types of experience... I can certainly learn things on the side and take courses or whatever if I wanted to but that's not quite the same as "on the job" experience. I don't know how important that really is at this stage in my career...
As far as promotions, it seems like you'd have to look outside the immediate department and try for another position elsewhere (which could be subject to a relocation requirement as well unless you are looking for openings that are local to your area) more than anything.
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Sacramento is nicer than people are giving it credit for!
If your wife isn't interested, this idea is a non-starter.
I hope you take the offer as a positive sign you are hirable, but there is no need to get into details on the salary or anything more in the weeds since you know you are not going to move. It's a waste of everybody's time. CONGRATS on the offer though!
I think you should stay at your current company as long as the work/team/manager are good, and I think the fear of being forced out in the future by relocation or getting a settlement from a downsizing event are worth exploring in your own head or with a therapist. What is so scary about having to job hunt someday? what is so scary about a separation package? What would you do if you had to live off your substantial savings for a while? Write out the exact steps. How bad is that really? Why are you tempted to preemptively accept lower pay and move to a city your whole family doesn't prefer? Is it really so awful to move after a lay off that you would go ahead and make yourself do those steps now just to avoid being pushed into them later?
If you believe you can coast-fire and it's what you want to do, I don't think it starts with taking a state job just for perceived stability and benefits. I think it starts by asking yourself what kind of work you'd do if money were not an object, and where would you be living. IMO the point of being almost-fire, or coasting, is you don't have the pressure to earn so you can finally do what you want, such as working fewer hours, or finding new work that is more satisfying but lower-paid.
My advice again
- keep your job
- work on your anxiety
- figure out the 3rd child thing before you buy
- figure out if there is a more enjoyable job or location or hourly schedule that you can work which supports your family without needing to maximize income.
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Sacramento is nicer than people are giving it credit for!
If your wife isn't interested, this idea is a non-starter.
I hope you take the offer as a positive sign you are hirable, but there is no need to get into details on the salary or anything more in the weeds since you know you are not going to move. It's a waste of everybody's time. CONGRATS on the offer though!
I think you should stay at your current company as long as the work/team/manager are good, and I think the fear of being forced out in the future by relocation or getting a settlement from a downsizing event are worth exploring in your own head or with a therapist. What is so scary about having to job hunt someday? what is so scary about a separation package? What would you do if you had to live off your substantial savings for a while? Write out the exact steps. How bad is that really? Why are you tempted to preemptively accept lower pay and move to a city your whole family doesn't prefer? Is it really so awful to move after a lay off that you would go ahead and make yourself do those steps now just to avoid being pushed into them later?
If you believe you can coast-fire and it's what you want to do, I don't think it starts with taking a state job just for perceived stability and benefits. I think it starts by asking yourself what kind of work you'd do if money were not an object, and where would you be living. IMO the point of being almost-fire, or coasting, is you don't have the pressure to earn so you can finally do what you want, such as working fewer hours, or finding new work that is more satisfying but lower-paid.
My advice again
- keep your job
- work on your anxiety
- figure out the 3rd child thing before you buy
- figure out if there is a more enjoyable job or location or hourly schedule that you can work which supports your family without needing to maximize income.
Thanks! It is an encouraging sign but I feel like I still need to work on sharpening things a bit more (e.g. polishing resume, skillset, etc).
I'm leaning towards staying as well. And good points about addressing the fears - I think a lot of it has to do with the pressure I feel about "being the breadwinner" in addition to the thoughts of purchasing a home in the near future (maybe not this year but perhaps in the next few years). The overall anxiety of it stems from getting ourselves into a bad situation where I've lost the job but where we've also taken on an enormous amount of debt (mortgage) prior to that event. A lot of "what ifs" at play for sure.
On that note: I think Coast fire can only happen if we are forever-renters. Maybe we have to accept that fact if I want to "work for myself" or whatever. But both my wife and I really want a home for our kids to grow up in.
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So when you say the step/grade you start at is negotiable, practically what would this look like in my situation? Am I to insist that they give me the written quote of the step/grade/level BEFORE I accept anything? It seems like they're kind of pushing back on this. If they do start me low or mid, what would I "show" to justify that I'm qualified? Even then, within each step there are still pretty wide ranges:
$5,562.00 - $7,454.00 A
$6,116.00 - $8,197.00 B
$6,715.00 - $8,999.00 C
I don't think I can afford to take anything less than top of range C, especially if we were looking to buy a home in the next few years or so.
Aside from job stability with the state (of course, my friend at the county doesn't believe state jobs are that stable as he had heard of numerous layoffs), the only 'saving grace' about taking a pay cut with this position is that I'd be working on projects that should sharpen my infosec skills and likely update a lot of them. Current job there's very little on the job "skill upkeep" types of experience... I can certainly learn things on the side and take courses or whatever if I wanted to but that's not quite the same as "on the job" experience. I don't know how important that really is at this stage in my career...
As far as promotions, it seems like you'd have to look outside the immediate department and try for another position elsewhere (which could be subject to a relocation requirement as well unless you are looking for openings that are local to your area) more than anything.
I don't know if a position can be established as a range A or B position or if all IT Spec I positions can be filled at range C. If the position can be filled at range C and you qualify for range C, you would be placed in range C immediately. There is also a process that I am not familiar with for hiring above the minimum. I'm not familiar with that process and those responsible for selecting who to hire may not be familiar with the process either. Your questions about starting salary might need to be directed to a classification and pay analyst in the department's HR office. If you are at the top of range C, then you'd have no raise unless you promote to a higher classification (except for union negotiated general salary increases).
Layoffs are not common, but could happen. All layoffs are done based on seniority. If you might be subject to a layoff, you would be given special priority in other state jobs you apply to (unless the position would be considered a promotion). This would start at least 120 days before layoff.
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So when you say the step/grade you start at is negotiable, practically what would this look like in my situation? Am I to insist that they give me the written quote of the step/grade/level BEFORE I accept anything? It seems like they're kind of pushing back on this. If they do start me low or mid, what would I "show" to justify that I'm qualified? Even then, within each step there are still pretty wide ranges:
$5,562.00 - $7,454.00 A
$6,116.00 - $8,197.00 B
$6,715.00 - $8,999.00 C
I don't think I can afford to take anything less than top of range C, especially if we were looking to buy a home in the next few years or so.
Aside from job stability with the state (of course, my friend at the county doesn't believe state jobs are that stable as he had heard of numerous layoffs), the only 'saving grace' about taking a pay cut with this position is that I'd be working on projects that should sharpen my infosec skills and likely update a lot of them. Current job there's very little on the job "skill upkeep" types of experience... I can certainly learn things on the side and take courses or whatever if I wanted to but that's not quite the same as "on the job" experience. I don't know how important that really is at this stage in my career...
As far as promotions, it seems like you'd have to look outside the immediate department and try for another position elsewhere (which could be subject to a relocation requirement as well unless you are looking for openings that are local to your area) more than anything.
I don't know if a position can be established as a range A or B position or if all IT Spec I positions can be filled at range C. If the position can be filled at range C and you qualify for range C, you would be placed in range C immediately. There is also a process that I am not familiar with for hiring above the minimum. I'm not familiar with that process and those responsible for selecting who to hire may not be familiar with the process either. Your questions about starting salary might need to be directed to a classification and pay analyst in the department's HR office. If you are at the top of range C, then you'd have no raise unless you promote to a higher classification (except for union negotiated general salary increases).
Layoffs are not common, but could happen. All layoffs are done based on seniority. If you might be subject to a layoff, you would be given special priority in other state jobs you apply to (unless the position would be considered a promotion). This would start at least 120 days before layoff.
It seems like for that ITS I position, you're going to be placed in one of those ranges based on your past experience & credentials? When you say there's a process for hiring above the minimum, in what sense do you mean? Let's say the offer was clarified to start at $6715 in range C. Is the process you're referring to one where I would be trying to negotiate the $8999 max or closer to it? And if, hypothetically, I were to start at $8999, are you saying there would be no pay increase even for inflation adjustment?
I do wonder about transferring to other ITS roles and how realistic the chances of getting those other positions are if you don't have the specific experience they are requiring (e.g. I might be doing infosec stuff now but if a layoff occurs and there are only ITS positions that are non-infosec/technical in other areas where I don't have that experience, would I still have a chance?). Seeing how often they open up positions though, I don't think there would be too big of a concern but who knows... are there a lot state employees who have gotten displaced to the point where they are no longer working for the state?
Are you guys adamant about staying in a HCOL area? Or in owning a more upscale house? If not then there are a million places you can retire to that have much lower cost housing (and much less emphasis on being living an upscale upwardly mobile life). I sold my home recently and waiting BF's house sale to close and will then be looking for something lower cost which will (hopefully) be a better environmental on all fronts. And if we can't find a lower COL area that we like, we are happy to drasticly downscale our housing expectations - whether renting or buying - if staying in a HCOL area. Is that something you guys have considered? Might make having a 3rd child more easily doable financially AND have the added benefit of more free time with less financial worry.
We *really* like it down here. We don't need a super fancy house - a "basic" 3/2 or 4/2 is fine. I'm good with finding a 'fixer-upper' or low curb appeal home (that hasn't been updated or maintained much) and pouring some sweaty equity into it. But as you know pricing is just insane anywhere and everywhere.
The big thing for us the immersion program and second thing is not moving any further away from the in-laws. I mean, we could, in theory, move closer to my in-laws but I think we'd be giving up on the immersion more or less. The other option is for my in-laws to sell their current place and move to Seal Beach or Laguna Woods so they're closer by. Frankly, I'd be hesitant having them move to Seal Beach in lieu of this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/24/seal-beach-anti-asian-letter/ - so Laguna Woods would be most preferable. That still doesn't resolve the issue of lower cost housing for us though - we basically would have to be willing to live further in-land (East Mission Viejo and Lake Forest) and deal with the commute. Or perhaps entertain the idea of moving into a new build around the Great Park in Irvine or Baker Ranch. Another thought that has been on our minds has been getting SFH with an ADU or buying an SFH with a large lot where an ADU could be built out. For that we would want to have our in-laws sell their place and pool our monies together to increase the buying power. They could live in the ADU and provide sitting for our kids while they're still able and this could potentially free my wife up a bit more for being able to work part time gigs that she might enjoy (assistant for her friend, instacart shopping, etc).
This goes back to the Vancouver discussion - aside from the concerns over weather and lack of sun, cost of living and housing *should* be lower there and they do have what seems to be a pretty comprehensive immersion program. The issues would be that this is a pretty huge move and we would still have to consider my in-laws (we might even try selling them on the idea of moving with us... not sure if they'd buy into it).
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It seems like for that ITS I position, you're going to be placed in one of those ranges based on your past experience & credentials? When you say there's a process for hiring above the minimum, in what sense do you mean? Let's say the offer was clarified to start at $6715 in range C. Is the process you're referring to one where I would be trying to negotiate the $8999 max or closer to it? And if, hypothetically, I were to start at $8999, are you saying there would be no pay increase even for inflation adjustment?
Basically yes. There is a reasonable chance that they'd look at your past experience and current salary and just offer you the top of range C without you having to ask for it. When the unions negotiate contracts every 3 years, they usually include general salary increases that more or less follow inflation, but there is no automatic COLA for state workers. The 2020 and 2021 increases for SEIU were postponed to 2022 in an agreement reached May or June 2020 based on COVID related expectations of revenue shortages, so the $8999 rate was set in July 2019. State pensions do follow an automatic COLA.
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It seems like for that ITS I position, you're going to be placed in one of those ranges based on your past experience & credentials? When you say there's a process for hiring above the minimum, in what sense do you mean? Let's say the offer was clarified to start at $6715 in range C. Is the process you're referring to one where I would be trying to negotiate the $8999 max or closer to it? And if, hypothetically, I were to start at $8999, are you saying there would be no pay increase even for inflation adjustment?
Basically yes. There is a reasonable chance that they'd look at your past experience and current salary and just offer you the top of range C without you having to ask for it. When the unions negotiate contracts every 3 years, they usually include general salary increases that more or less follow inflation, but there is no automatic COLA for state workers. The 2020 and 2021 increases for SEIU were postponed to 2022 in an agreement reached May or June 2020 based on COVID related expectations of revenue shortages, so the $8999 rate was set in July 2019. State pensions do follow an automatic COLA.
Interesting. So in short, the SEIU (Union) bargains for the COLA increases. And in this case the 2020 and 2021 increases have been postponed but will the be "folded" into 2022? What would that look like percentage wise? Like a 6% increase in wage once 2022 comes? Could that change or be rescinded at all or is it pretty much set in stone?
When you say state pensions follow an automatic COLA, I'm assuming that just means whatever you're paid out in your pension is COLA'ed at that point in time?
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Interesting. So in short, the SEIU (Union) bargains for the COLA increases. And in this case the 2020 and 2021 increases have been postponed but will the be "folded" into 2022? What would that look like percentage wise? Like a 6% increase in wage once 2022 comes? Could that change or be rescinded at all or is it pretty much set in stone?
The contract included a 2.5% increase in July 2020 and 2% increase in July 2021. The agreement on COVID related cuts had provisions for delaying both these increase and applying a furlough (9.23% cut in exchange for 16 hour/month in leave credits) until July 2022. The economy hasn't suffered as much as was feared a year ago, so I actually think we'll end up getting some increase this year (some combination of ending/reducing the furlough and/or getting some increase in basis) - the agreement had specific metrics on things that would reduce the cuts early and stipulated that no additional cuts would occur. Since these provisions all end with the contract, nothing is 100% set in stone, but unless the state and union come to an agreement to continue these cuts, they will expire at the end of June 2022 even if a new contract is not reached on time - so state workers can expect a 4.5% increase and end of furloughs in July 2022. I do think that the delayed increases will reduce the leeway the union has to negotiate increases as part of the 2022 contract.
When you say state pensions follow an automatic COLA, I'm assuming that just means whatever you're paid out in your pension is COLA'ed at that point in time?
Yes. CalPERS would be the source for details.
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UPDATE: I just spoke with the hiring manager on the phone... some salient points of consideration:
1) He was telling me that he and the rest of the leadership in his department are very much open to the idea of telework - in short: he would be fine with me teleworking but....
1b) with the caveat that any future requirements there are to meet in person, I would *not* be reimbursed for travel/commute (and presumably food and lodging) expenses
1c) I pointed out the policy for telework and reimbursements (https://www.calhr.ca.gov/employees/Pages/telework-policy.aspx and https://www.calhr.ca.gov/employees/Pages/travel-reimbursements.aspx) and he
was reminding me that the travel reimbursement is strictly for the purpose of training type events, in which case showing up for an on-site meeting is not under the umbrella of (thinking about this, I don't see why he
couldn't just budget for "all team training" once or twice a year and that way I could get reimbursement, even if it's partial)
2) The position is EXEMPT so there is no overtime. He countered that by saying that they are very flexible and would come up with arrangements to 'make up' for any time worked outside hours (sounded like comp time) They are very "conscious of work/life balance" and try to honor it based on what he was saying. I'm not sure what the time keeping process is with the state but per the telework policy it seems you have to fill out a daily time card/report..?
3) The salary numbers are currently being worked on by HR and he told me it would take probably 2-3 days or so for them to get the exact number/compensation. I told him this is very important for me to be able to viably make a decision but also hinted that it is not the only thing dictating whether or not I will take the position.
NOTE: Regarding the telework situation, the hiring manager told me at first that as they slowly open things back up for "return to office" he may want to meet in person more frequently but he was not divulging much about how often that would be. At first he said maybe twice or every month. Then as we talked more about telework/remote work and my current situation his tone slightly changed to being "more flexible" and maybe asking for in person meetings once or twice a year or once a quarter.
I should say that I have it in my mind that I'm very much leaning towards NOT taking the position just due to the pay reduction concern. While I understand the state benefits are mostly great, it would still be difficult to make a sensible justification to drop down from my current salary.
EDIT: just saw the snippet regarding "commute" in the midst of telework -
"Expenses Incurred While Working a Telework Schedule
Expenses incurred as a result of working a telework schedule will not be reimbursed by the State including, but not limited to, the following: usage fees for privately owned computers, utility costs associated with the use of telephone, computer or occupation of the home, or travel to the Central office if required to come in on a telework day."
So it also sounds like they may not provide a work computer/laptop or phone and that I'd have to use my personal computer and VPN in? Not sure how I feel about that as currently I have a dedicate work laptop and phone.
@spartana or @robartsd - what percentage of your state income goes to pension? From what I understand, this amount cannot be changed or altered, right? I found this snippet:
"Based on data over the past 20 years ending June 30, 2020, for every dollar CalPERS pays in pensions: 55 cents comes from investment earnings. 32 cents from employer contributions. 13 cents from employee contributions." - so to figure "total pay/compensation" I'd have to know the mandatory contribution percentage X my annual salary X .32 if I understand correctly... if it's something like 8% (which is what my county friend says he has to contribute) then that would translate to $2560 if you have a salary of say $100k.
After re-calculating and estimating *TOTAL* compensation (not base salary), I think the percentage decrease would actually be around 14-15% primarily due to the health care benefit which seems to be pretty significant. If we're just talking about base pay though, the percentage decrease is more like 27% (presumably this should drop down a little less when 2022 comes around and the COLAs kick back in).
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So it also sounds like they may not provide a work computer/laptop or phone and that I'd have to use my personal computer and VPN in? Not sure how I feel about that as currently I have a dedicate work laptop and phone.
You'd very likely be issued a work laptop and connect to the office over VPN. If using your personal computer, you'd likely log into a computer in the office with a remote desktop technology rather than running software directly on your equipment. You would not likely be issued accessories like monitors and keyboards for telework. Work phone would vary based on responsibilities. Hiring manager would likely know what equipment would be assigned. You'd probably need to go to the office to get set up with equipment.
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One other semi-related question but how to Federal jobs compare to State jobs? Are the benefits more or less the same? And is there less or more stigma when it comes to how the private sector views federal employees?
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OK, so aside from working to try to get or maximize pension and health retirement benefits offered by the state... would any of you (current or former state/fed/gov employees) actually recommend working in the public sector in the context of Coast or Barista FIRE particularly for the 'stability' along with the health benefits, etc *while* gainfully employed there (at least until you're actually ready to fully quit and retire)?
Once you work for the state for a year and are off probation, you can pretty much tell them that you're moving down to 32 hours a week or whatever and that's pretty much it. This is in California, anyways. Unless you're in a public safety job, they can't do much about it. There's a limit to what is considered full time, I think 30 or 32 hours, and as long as you don't drop below it, you get full benefits. Your pay is reduced, of course, and that affects your retirement.
/\ This wouldnt work for my job because there is no clear line with the work in terms of how much can be done based on x hours. From those who done the part-time thing (temporary basis due to birth of a child, etc), they all said they did the same amount of work, just with less hours and therefore less pay.
In terms of coasting with a govt job, I think it really depends on the job itself. I couldn't do it with my job and can't wait to get out soon!
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So it also sounds like they may not provide a work computer/laptop or phone and that I'd have to use my personal computer and VPN in? Not sure how I feel about that as currently I have a dedicate work laptop and phone.
You'd very likely be issued a work laptop and connect to the office over VPN. If using your personal computer, you'd likely log into a computer in the office with a remote desktop technology rather than running software directly on your equipment. You would not likely be issued accessories like monitors and keyboards for telework. Work phone would vary based on responsibilities. Hiring manager would likely know what equipment would be assigned. You'd probably need to go to the office to get set up with equipment.
I wasn't WFH too much (although did reports from home or while in the field often) but travelled thru out the state so was issued laptop, phone and a state vehicle as well as other things I required to do my job. I imagine for a f/t WFH person they would supply everything you needed. Quality and tech advances might not be up to par with whatever you are use to though.
As for your other question - I paid 7% towards my state pension and my agency matched that. I didn't pay into SS though (but did toward Medicare) but most new hires pay into a pension and SS. My agency wasn't unionized.
Maybe it depends on the position but according to the telework policy, they aren't obligated to provide any equipment:
"Telework Environment
Equipment, Software, Services, Maintenance, Repair, and Replacement
CalHR will not purchase computers, software, software licenses, Internet or phone services or office equipment such as printers, fax machines, calculators, or furniture for in-home telework.
In addition, the selection, installation, maintenance, repair or replacement of employee-owned equipment and software is the responsibility of the employee. Computer equipment should have a configuration that is compatible with CalHR's Information Technology (IT) infrastructure. In the event of equipment malfunction, the teleworker must notify his/her supervisor immediately. If repairs will take some time, the teleworker may be asked to report to the main office until the equipment is usable."
Not sure if any of this can be written off via income taxes but I guess that would be the next best thing...
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That seems pretty insecure to have employees using their own equipment and presumably logging into a central system on it. When I worked from home I had a dedicated work laptop with company software plus secure router separate from my home system plus a special home-working login.
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That seems pretty insecure to have employees using their own equipment and presumably logging into a central system on it. When I worked from home I had a dedicated work laptop with company software plus secure router separate from my home system plus a special home-working login.
Definitely a liability IMO. Not so much the fact that you have to VPN as much as if the employee has viruses and malware on their system that could potentially be 'transferred' into the corporate/govt network. I have a feeling they'd want to issue me a state owned laptop given that. This is also an infosec position, so I'd be surprised if they're lax on that kind of stuff.
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That seems pretty insecure to have employees using their own equipment and presumably logging into a central system on it. When I worked from home I had a dedicated work laptop with company software plus secure router separate from my home system plus a special home-working login.
Definitely a liability IMO. Not so much the fact that you have to VPN as much as if the employee has viruses and malware on their system that could potentially be 'transferred' into the corporate/govt network. I have a feeling they'd want to issue me a state owned laptop given that. This is also an infosec position, so I'd be surprised if they're lax on that kind of stuff.
My agency does not allow VPN connections from personal equipment, but does allow remote desktop access from personal equipment in some cases. I think the CalHR language is mostly just making sure employees don't come back for extra compensation if they use personal equipment for work (with or without instruction to do so). I'm sure than no positions require employees to provide their own equipment, but positions that are not required to telework MAY require employees choosing to telework to provide some needed resources (such as forwarding your desk phone to a personal line or using a personal computer to remote into your desktop at work).
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Anyone here work for the fed?
I forgot I received a notification that I quality for a grade 11 position last week for a position with the Dept of Defense (HQed out of Seaside, CA near Monterey) - haven't been contacted about it but the pay would be even less than the state position though.
I *just* got another notification a few minutes ago for a grade 13 position that I qualify for - I was told my resume/info has been passed up to the hiring official and they will decide on whether or not to contact me. That position is with the Dept of Energy (based out of Portland).
All fed jobs appear to be open for telework but likely require some amount of travel, which I wouldn't mind if it's paid for haha
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UPDATE: just heard back from the hiring manager with an update on a few things I asked about
1) I'm in the 2% @ 62 Retirement formula
2) A dept issued laptop would be provided
3) I'd fall into ITS I Range C at $6715 (this is a 42% reduction in current pay base+bonus... if I threw out bonus it would still be a 38% decrease)
4) I may be eligible for reimbursement as required by the business as long as it is infrequent (possibly once a quarter)
I think this likely solidifies the decision for me as far as the range they placed me in. $80k a year salary is not going to cut it. I realize I can probably negotiate this up but with the max ceiling being $102k and me already not being comfortable taking even that big of a pay-cut, I think the outlook is pretty low on this one.
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I know people that did what you are doing but they did it ten years later after a more lucrative career and some job hopping. As they neared 50, the handwriting was on the wall. They did 10 or 15 years in a government position and took the small pension plus the health insurance benefits at retirement. Funded the 457 plan while they were there because the kids were out of the nest. What you would be doing if you jumped today is shutting a lot of doors at too young of an age. You will not be able to go back to the private sector because your skills will be out of date and your work ethic questioned. It's a dead end.
These people cannot offer you what you want or need. In your shoes, I would thank them for the offer and move on. Start aggressively job hunting in the area where you want to live. Stick with the private sector for another 10 years. Then revisit coast FI.
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I know people that did what you are doing but they did it ten years later after a more lucrative career and some job hopping. As they neared 50, the handwriting was on the wall. They did 10 or 15 years in a government position and took the small pension plus the health insurance benefits at retirement. Funded the 457 plan while they were there because the kids were out of the nest. What you would be doing if you jumped today is shutting a lot of doors at too young of an age. You will not be able to go back to the private sector because your skills will be out of date and your work ethic questioned. It's a dead end.
These people cannot offer you what you want or need. In your shoes, I would thank them for the offer and move on. Start aggressively job hunting in the area where you want to live. Stick with the private sector for another 10 years. Then revisit coast FI.
Thanks for reaffirming the decision I'm planning on making. It doesn't seem like a very sensible choice at this point. I am curious about some of the Federal jobs with Dept of Energy or Dept of Defense, which seem to generally offer higher pay. Even working for LA County seems like a pretty good proposition considering the pay grades and benefits. Basically, with government it sounds like there are good jobs that exist but are pretty rare and harder to find. Possibly something in edu or public utilities might be better suited if I wanted to look outside private sector. I'll probably need to get one more cert (CISSP) to really stay 'relevant' and marketable in the private sector at this point though.
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Well, I have officially declined the position (just sent an email back to the hiring manager). The interview process was actually very pleasant so I made sure to reiterate that. But gave the generic reason that it's just not the right time for me to leave my current role. We'll see what else is out there I guess....
EDIT: the hiring manager replied back almost immediately and is asking for key/specific reasons or concerns for declining the offer. I know I'm not obligated to tell him but would it make sense to throw out the big one about the salary being way too low? hahaha
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I think you're making the right decision for all the right reasons - pay and being in a location you like (and family happiness) being the main ones. You have a high salary even by OC standards and, given your stash amount, you can probably buy a place fairly easily at a low interest rate and won't have to worry about making payments if your job ended. Ditto on renting. While some state jobs have great pension benefits (mine is 2% at 50 - although I quit about 10 years before that age - but some are 3% at 50) your higher will allow you to stash so much more.
Don't know much about Fed pensions but most jobs are lower pay then the state equivalent. Although there are likely COLA in their pay.
They were willing to entertain the telework situation which was nice but I still would have concerns in the bigger picture - it's all so new and they are still navigating all of that. It's not guaranteed. So yea, ultimately location would still be a concern. But pay was pretty concerning as well.
In terms of buying a place, we're still navigating that issue - it's really hard to find something that fits our situation/family size that doesn't feel like it's overextending. Drawing the line between overextending and a home just "feeling expensive" is the harder part though. And on top of that, figuring out how *much* of a down payment we want to put in. Right now the market is insane and unless you put in 30-40% and remove 1 or 2 contingencies, you are going to be overlooked.
What would ITS I be 'equivalent' to a the Fed Level BTW? Would that be like Grade 11?
I'm wondering how to reply to the hiring manager's last email asking about reasons for declining and concerns. I've basically drafted out that the telework/relocation situation is still a concern at a higher level and also that the salary amount wouldn't work. I'm not sure that he would come back to try to negotiate higher pay but even if he did I still likely wouldn't take it just because, at best, the pay reduction is still going to be 22-27% (depending on when they lift the temporary pay reduction - I think I saw that it was by June or July...).
At that point, one would have to wonder why I even applied - at the time I applied I was pretty unhappy about the work situation with the awful manager... it just so happened that in the past 1-2 weeks my former manager pulled me back into his fold so I'm a lot more relieved. At a higher level nobody knows what's going to happen but in the immediate/near-term I feel like a big burden has been lifted with the changes in immediate management.
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Yeah you can't buy anything here unless offering cash, generally above asking price, and no contingencies. Probably a collapse soon like during mid 2000 when prices dropped by 50% and many places were foreclosed on. A good time to buy then (ask me how I know ;-)).
I have no idea what a Fed GS11 job would compare to a state job but going by my own former state position (which would be a law enforcement/criminal investigator/environmental compliance type job in something like the Federal EPA) Calif paid a lot more and had better benefits - including the ability to buy back my military time tax deferred to add several years of service credit to my pension. The Fed's OPM site list pay ranges I believe so you can check that out for an idea.
In any case I think sticking with the private sector is probably the best option for now.
It seems bittersweet and borderline wrong hoping for a crash, but I do hope for it LOL. Every other person you ask says "but this is different from last time. No it really is" - so we'll see I guess :)
Ah so I guess it depends on the department then. I think in the IT arena, the pay generally isn't *as* good but for certain other areas (probably those that are more specialized or dealing with health, public safety, law, etc) it seems a lot better. It has been interesting getting everyone's perspective on this - I see a lot of differences of opinion and I think it really boils down to the dept or group you're in, as is the case with nearly everything else :)
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EDIT: the hiring manager replied back almost immediately and is asking for key/specific reasons or concerns for declining the offer. I know I'm not obligated to tell him but would it make sense to throw out the big one about the salary being way too low? hahaha
No harm in telling him that salary was the biggest reason you declined the offer. Long term it could help management make decisions to raise the salary somehow if they consistently have trouble filling positions.