Does it have to be a big, scary, official discussion? Can you mention something here and there (like interest in investing, preference for time/freedom vs. status symbols, mindful consumption) and see what conversations arise? Get to know each other and see if you have compatible levels of responsibility, ambition, and discipline?
I think it makes sense to determine if you really like each other and work together well before worrying too much about whether your long-term goals line up. Life plans can change, especially to accommodate someone you've found that you can't live without.
Mentioning off the cuff you want to retire early is pretty casual. That could be the start to a productive conversation. I started the conversation with "I would like to be able to retire early if I want to. I don't want to be stuck working a job I hate because I have to." She could relate to this because she feels like that what her father is doing.
You'll figure out if they are frugal or not in time.
Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
Hey,
I met someone a few weeks ago and we've gone on 3 days and texted a ton. I like her and I think that she likes me, she's planning to come to my friend's NY party.
We have talked about quite a few things openly, but haven't yet discussed life-plans and finances. I think that it would be a good idea to see if she is like-minded in terms of willing to consider early retirement. It may be something that she's never thought about, but might be open to it once she hears more. I don't think I should do it now, but would like to do it as finances are a deal-breaker for me. I haven't had a way to gauge her interest or see if is good with her money. Our first date was for coffee, the second wasn't quite a date but I help pack food for a charity and she came and joined me in doing so, and just earlier today we went to a museum exhibit that we both wanted to go (bonus, she got the tickets for free through work!).
I realize I likely am thinking way too far ahead, but I would rather discuss it here and get some advice rather than think about it in my head. I have some good friends that I talk to about dating, but none of them are Mustachians.
The best thing you can do is talk about your future aspirations and dreams. Trust me, no girl wants to hear a dude say he can't wait to sit at a desk for 45 years then retire and play golf and watch tv. Even non-mustachians know that sounds pathetic. Talk about your big ideas, the thing that keeps you going, the reason you can't wait to FIRE. And then when she asks how you're going to make it happen, tell her you have a master plan and wink. If she likes you and thinks your dreams sound like something she could get behind, she'll ask more questions. If she thinks you're crazy, you just dodged a bullet. Good luck.
From a sample of your first three dates/events, I would say you are likely to be on to a winner here. A SpendiPants wouldn't agree to pack charity food for a date and wouldn't be bothered about getting free tickets to the museum [An entitled SpendiPrince(ss) would expect their date to pay for everything and shower them with trinkets].
See I'd much rather mention early retirement and getting to travel and do whatever, than just mention being "good with money and saving up."
The former will give you way more information, based on her reaction (if it's cool, or ridiculous). The latter just makes her think you're cheap.
I think ER can be mentioned easily, talking about your dreams, without being weird at all or grilling her about her finances or anything, which aren't any of your business at this point.
Basically it's way too early to talk finances. But it's not (and never is) too early to show who you are.
Discuss ER and your goals and future dreams, in a casual way. "Oh I love to travel..I really want to go to X, and when I'm retired in about a decade I plan to travel a lot" or whatever.
+1 to this! Those 1st 3 dates sound pretty mustachian to me, so I'd just keep doing what you're doing for a bit. Keep getting together on some frugal dates, and just play it by ear. If she is sick of you not spending a ton on her, she'll drop you soon enough and then you won't need to worry about it. If she keeps coming back for more, you'll know when to start talking about more personal things. Keep in mind you are still trying to 'woo' her, so don't be afraid to splurge on some flowers ($10 simple bouquet from the grocery store, not $90 FTD delivered to her office) and a nice chocolate bar or fancy Co-Op cheese, etc. Also, don't be afraid to mention your interest in personal finance and investing, and in that I would throw out there that you "occasionally" read MMM, Frugalwoods, NWEdible, RootOfGood, etc. I don't know which ones you actually read, but I'd mention more than just MMM as that way you don't sound hardcore into this one thing...plus the more you mention, the more likely she's maybe heard of one that you then use to guide the conversation.
From a sample of your first three dates/events, I would say you are likely to be on to a winner here. A SpendiPants wouldn't agree to pack charity food for a date and wouldn't be bothered about getting free tickets to the museum [An entitled SpendiPrince(ss) would expect their date to pay for everything and shower them with trinkets].
Congrats on finding someone you are excited about being with!
Thanks everyone!
On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).
Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.
I don't think there is ANY point at which you can assume you are in a relationship (using the exclusive/monogamous romantic version of this word here). Everyone is going to have a different opinion on 'when it becomes a relationship'. Don't assume. Practice communication.
Thanks everyone!
On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).
Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.
Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.
Does it have to be a big, scary, official discussion? Can you mention something here and there (like interest in investing, preference for time/freedom vs. status symbols, mindful consumption) and see what conversations arise? Get to know each other and see if you have compatible levels of responsibility, ambition, and discipline?For sure this.
I think it makes sense to determine if you really like each other and work together well before worrying too much about whether your long-term goals line up. Life plans can change, especially to accommodate someone you've found that you can't live without.
Don't assume. Practice communication.
Thanks everyone!
On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).
Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.
By the way, I would apply this advice to any touching as well. I wouldn't touch anybody, even a hug or holding hands, without explicitly seeking and receiving clear oral consent, and I would be (and am) displeased if somebody tried or tries to touch me without seeking and receiving such clear oral consent from me first. This also applies to arebelspy's kiss suggestion -- hopefully there's a step in there where explicit oral consent is sought and obtained first.
"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.
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Is this a new thing?
| The application of force to the person of another without lawful justification amounts to the wrong of battery. This is so, however trivial the amount or nature of the force may be, and even though it neither does nor is intended nor is likely or able to do any manner of harm. Even to touch a person without his consent or some other lawful reason is actionable. Nor is anger or hostility essential to liability: an unwanted kiss may be a battery. For the interest that is protected by the law of assault and battery is not merely that of freedom from bodily harm, but also that of freedom from such forms of insult as may be due to interference with his person. In respect of his personal dignity, therefore, a [person] may recover substantial damages for battery which had done him no physical harm whatever... |
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
You sound like a red pill subscriber. OP--don't listen to this complete generalization of women.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
Is this a new thing?
Is the concept of seeking consent before touching someone new? No, it is not new. It has deep roots in the common law, not to mention in common sense. Back in 1981, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, a court in the province where you live, explained the concept of battery as follows (quoting a secondary source):P.B. v. Baugh, [1982] 2 WWR 126, 1981 CanLII 622 (https://www.canlii.org/canlii-dynamic/en/bc/bcsc/doc/1981/1981canlii622/1981canlii622.html) at ¶ 18 (quoting a secondary source; emphasis added).
The application of force to the person of another without lawful justification amounts to the wrong of battery. This is so, however trivial the amount or nature of the force may be, and even though it neither does nor is intended nor is likely or able to do any manner of harm. Even to touch a person without his consent or some other lawful reason is actionable. Nor is anger or hostility essential to liability: an unwanted kiss may be a battery. For the interest that is protected by the law of assault and battery is not merely that of freedom from bodily harm, but also that of freedom from such forms of insult as may be due to interference with his person. In respect of his personal dignity, therefore, a [person] may recover substantial damages for battery which had done him no physical harm whatever...
Furthermore, in Canada, a plaintiff is not required to prove lack of consent to prevail on a claim of battery. E.g., Non-Marine Underwriters, Lloyd's of London v. Scalera, 2000 SCC 24 (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2000/2000scc24/2000scc24.html), [2000] 1 SCR 551 at ¶ 20. The only exception mentioned by the Court is that battery does not include "inevitable contact that goes with ordinary human activity, like brushing someone’s hand in the course of exchanging a gift, a gratuitous handshake, or being jostled in a crowd". Id at ¶ 21. Hugging may arguably fall into that category, but kissing is well outside of that kind of conduct.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.
As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.
"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.
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It's sexy as hell when done properly.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
This is absolute fucking bullshit and you really should stop giving advice. That's about the tamest response I can muster for you[/b]. [/b][/size]Consent is a thing, and you need to learn what it is.The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.
As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)
This is only my opinion, but I like uncertainty and anticipation of possibilities. I would (and have) ask if someone would like a kiss goodnight at the moment when I would kiss them; asking far ahead of time seems awkward and strange to me (also, if they change their mind then they are in a really awkward position to say no). I generally phrase it as 'would you like' instead of 'may I', but again that's personal preference.
Sometimes I ask and sometimes I don't. I try very hard to read body language and often a first kiss is very obviously a mutual desire without words to that affect. I will sometimes ask if I am unsure, but I am generally quite conservative with my guesses (I have never been told no, which implies there are likely other times I could have kissed but didn't).
First kisses are my favorite. :)
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that."May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.
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It's sexy as hell when done properly.
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.
If by "outrage crowd" you mean "respect boundaries and don't assume that millions of people all want the same thing", I guess I'm now a proud member of the outrage crowd.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
This is absolute fucking bullshit and you really should stop giving advice. That's about the tamest response I can muster for you[/b]. [/b][/size]Consent is a thing, and you need to learn what it is.The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.
As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)
This is only my opinion, but I like uncertainty and anticipation of possibilities. I would (and have) ask if someone would like a kiss goodnight at the moment when I would kiss them; asking far ahead of time seems awkward and strange to me (also, if they change their mind then they are in a really awkward position to say no). I generally phrase it as 'would you like' instead of 'may I', but again that's personal preference.
Sometimes I ask and sometimes I don't. I try very hard to read body language and often a first kiss is very obviously a mutual desire without words to that affect. I will sometimes ask if I am unsure, but I am generally quite conservative with my guesses (I have never been told no, which implies there are likely other times I could have kissed but didn't).
First kisses are my favorite. :)
Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone? Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force. Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that."May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.
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It's sexy as hell when done properly.
99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that. I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around. Don't ask. You'll spend the night with your hand.
Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone? Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force. Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.
100% agreed. The underlying general mindset of "take what you want and then find out if she wants to" is harmful.Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone? Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force. Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.
I don't object to the "don't ask" advice (again, if the situation is right), but I do object to the complete generalization of women in his first sentence.
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that."May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's sexy as hell when done properly.
99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that. I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around. Don't ask. You'll spend the night with your hand.
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that."May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's sexy as hell when done properly.
99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that.
I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around. Don't ask. You'll spend the night with your hand.
Zikoris, I'm not sure why you need a video to understand the concept of asking for concept. It's pretty straightforward. That said, I did take a look at your video. I'm guessing your complaint with the video is that the physically intimate activity depicted therein is continually interrupted by the cross-requests for consent. If that is a problem for you, the easy solution is to negotiate the parameters of the physical activity up front, before starting. Then, once you start, just stay within the bounds of what was previously agreed to. Both parties will still retain the right to revoke any consent they gave previously, so it's still important to listen to your partner at all times, but the upfront discussion can mostly avoid the need for back-and-forth chatter during the physical activity itself (if avoiding that is important to you).
Zikoris, I'm not sure why you need a video to understand the concept of asking for concept. It's pretty straightforward. That said, I did take a look at your video. I'm guessing your complaint with the video is that the physically intimate activity depicted therein is continually interrupted by the cross-requests for consent. If that is a problem for you, the easy solution is to negotiate the parameters of the physical activity up front, before starting. Then, once you start, just stay within the bounds of what was previously agreed to. Both parties will still retain the right to revoke any consent they gave previously, so it's still important to listen to your partner at all times, but the upfront discussion can mostly avoid the need for back-and-forth chatter during the physical activity itself (if avoiding that is important to you).
I understand the concept, what I'm not understanding is how it could be done in a way that's not super awkward and uncomfortable, and maybe even done in a "sexy" way. So far, it just seems repulsive to me and would guarantee an immediate end to anything sexual if the guy said anything even remotely similar to the video guy.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
I don't need a man to ask before any additional step, especially if those steps are taken slowly so I can speak up if, at any point, something in which I'm not interested looks like it is going to happen. But sometimes, especially when the relationship is new, it certainly can make things a but less awkward to ask than to not ask and upset someone, and prevent someone from feeling pushed into something in which they weren't interested.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
Oh dear God. A man, speaking for what all womankind wants. Hopefully OP you can see this for the awful advice it is.
I never felt a man needed to explicitly ask for a kiss (hand hold, etc.). For me, doing those things in ways that made it easy enough to duck out if I wanted was more than enough. IOW, lean on slowly for a kiss so she can see it is coming and demure if she isn't interested. That said, I think. "I really want to kiss you right now. Would that be okay" is incredible sexy. I can't imagine how it would be creepy, in any way.
I don't need a man to ask before any additional step, especially if those steps are taken slowly so I can speak up if, at any point, something in which I'm not interested looks like it is going to happen. But sometimes, especially when the relationship is new, it certainly can make things a but less awkward to ask than to not ask and upset someone, and prevent someone from feeling pushed into something in which they weren't interested.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
There are several stories of women being unhappy in relationships or leaving the relationship altogether because the men are too passive. Everyone needs to do whats best for them and their partner. The OP should not be taking advice from the women you reference in this thread IMO. The way the world works today, unfortunately the guy who doesn't make a move, often ends up alone because the girl is tired of waiting and not knowing if the guy is into her or not. I've had women tell me this all the time. I tell them to make the move if they are into them, but they don't. That's the social norm, every now and then, you'll find a take-charge woman, but it's pretty rare.
You seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it. Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss. Absolutely. And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive. And no, that isn't rare.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
There are several stories of women being unhappy in relationships or leaving the relationship altogether because the men are too passive. Everyone needs to do whats best for them and their partner. The OP should not be taking advice from the women you reference in this thread IMO. The way the world works today, unfortunately the guy who doesn't make a move, often ends up alone because the girl is tired of waiting and not knowing if the guy is into her or not. I've had women tell me this all the time. I tell them to make the move if they are into them, but they don't. That's the social norm, every now and then, you'll find a take-charge woman, but it's pretty rare.
Thanks everyone!
On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).
Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
QuoteYou seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it. Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss. Absolutely. And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive. And no, that isn't rare.
I don't have a desired outcome, I have my experiences from my surroundings, which is all any of us have. This isn't a gender thing. It'd be just as weird if a woman asked a man if she could kiss him instead of just going for it. Most people in this thread seem to find it to be odd as a deviation from normal conversation.
I don't see any reason to take the chance of not making a move when you are clearly into someone and wondering if they are also into you. Obviously the logical thing would be to discuss it, but that is not how most humans are, so unless you want to risk that your dream girl is an oddball that would prefer to discuss the idea of romantic gestures rather than just experiencing one, I'd suggest making the move. But that's just me.
If we don't see each other for NY, then I plan to ask her out to dinner this weekend, I want to wait to talk to her about NY before planning further. If she does come to NY, I hope she will have a good time. Maybe she'll be looking for me to kiss her when the ball drops, maybe not, but I'll do my best to gauge her interest and body language before I lean in for a kiss. Either way, I just want to spend more time with her to get to know her better.
QuoteYou seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it. Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss. Absolutely. And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive. And no, that isn't rare.
I don't have a desired outcome, I have my experiences from my surroundings, which is all any of us have. This isn't a gender thing. It'd be just as weird if a woman asked a man if she could kiss him instead of just going for it. Most people in this thread seem to find it to be odd as a deviation from normal conversation.
I don't see any reason to take the chance of not making a move when you are clearly into someone and wondering if they are also into you. Obviously the logical thing would be to discuss it, but that is not how most humans are, so unless you want to risk that your dream girl is an oddball that would prefer to discuss the idea of romantic gestures rather than just experiencing one, I'd suggest making the move. But that's just me.Be careful. The feminist, PC, Outrage crowd is on to you. Saying what they don't want to hear causes extreme anger and vicious outbursts.
MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1. This post adds nothing to the forum, is purposefully inflammatory, and rude. Stop. If you have an opinion, you're more than welcome to politely share it. Insulting others is not okay.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
Yet study after study disagrees with you.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/
At the same time, it is important to underscore that these men were preferred as short-term mates. Dominant men who derive pleasure from being aggressive deliver scant relationship benefits because they pose a threat to the family, show decreased parental investment, and have affairs. Consequently, and as expected, the women in this study preferred less aggressive men for long-term relationships.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
Anecdotal experiences are going to vary wildly (just as different women want different things). I can remember at least three times I've asked (it's always been yes). More often than not I don't ask (as I explained earlier), but it certainly has its place. Each person is different and each situation is different - that's why one blanket guideline will not work. The overarching assumption that women want you to "take what you want" is harmful.
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
Yet study after study disagrees with you.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/
Lol... Did you read the articles you posted? They don't actually back your "theory"
QuoteAt the same time, it is important to underscore that these men were preferred as short-term mates. Dominant men who derive pleasure from being aggressive deliver scant relationship benefits because they pose a threat to the family, show decreased parental investment, and have affairs. Consequently, and as expected, the women in this study preferred less aggressive men for long-term relationships.
And the second article was just silly.
. . .
I've invited her to my friend's New Year party and she is willing to go, she's nervous about being around people she doesn't know. Thankfully my friend's party is going to be a mix of games and general hanging out, which is putting it at ease (ie, she won't need to just stand around talking to people she doesn't know or staying by my side and being introduced to a ton of people). I'm an extrovert and she's an introvert, so this is understandable. She hasn't offered to invite me to any of her friend's parties, but I would be willing to go. If we don't see each other for NY, then I plan to ask her out to dinner this weekend, I want to wait to talk to her about NY before planning further. If she does come to NY, I hope she will have a good time. Maybe she'll be looking for me to kiss her when the ball drops, maybe not, but I'll do my best to gauge her interest and body language before I lean in for a kiss. Either way, I just want to spend more time with her to get to know her better.
Hm... my husband was definitely of the "asking first" variety, and I definitely appreciated that and preferred it actually.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
Bucksand, it's not me who has the comprehension problem. Read the part of the article that I quoted. To summarize, it says that women do not tend to choose the aggressive male for long term mates. The second article was, as I said, basically a gossip opinion piece, but even there she talks about short term appeal of the "bad guy."
Btw, I am happily married to a "nice guy", and never found assholes attractive, so I agree with the gist of the first article that aggressive males are not appealing choices for a long term partner.
I read the OP as more of a relationship query than a "how can I get laid" question.
Can you actually cite the study, not a news article.Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.
And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive.
If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine. But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want. Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?
Yet study after study disagrees with you.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/
Bucksand, you talk as if you have a choice in your behaviour, and women do not. That is the part of your argument that is so offensive.
"Science" may have an aggressive behaviour / pheromone theory, but real live women have choices to act on physical instincts, or not. Maybe when hormones are out of control, young people (male and female) will act more instinctively, but as they get older they make more conscious choices. Women are not hormone-driven automatons. We have rational minds, and most can see through the asshole / arrogant exterior from a mile away, and avoid it because it's not rationally attractive to them.
It sounds like you have a great plan, OP, and that things are going well.
I would gently caution you to be a little careful about worrying how you appear, or trying to figure out what kind of man she wants, as opposed to being yourself, acting naturally, and either attracting her, or not. While acting more naturally will probably mean more false starts and ended relationships, in the end, it is going to have the best likelihood of long term success, because long term you can't really sustain "acting" instead of "being". Really, it doesn't matter if 99% of women want an aggressive guy long term (to be clear, I don't think that's remotely true). Either you are that guy, or you aren't. And you don't have to please 99% of women. You only have to please one. If this girl, as great as she is, wants a traditional guy and you aren't that, she's probably not the one, any more than if you want a frugal girl (or some other attribute) and she's not, then she's probably not the one for you. She could act frugal and pretend to appreciate the ills of hedonistic adaptation, but that's unlikely to last and in a year, she's going to want to crank up the AC, if that's who she truly is at heart.
And that's why "approaches" and games and all that rarely lead to long term success. Sure, it seems to get some people laid, by certain types of women. But it doesn't seem to lead to healthy, long term, quietly happy marriages. Because people are pretending to be other than they are, and in a 50 year marriage, that's going to be impossible to maintain.
It's funny because last night I was channel flipping and came across the old Rocky movie right at the part where he first kisses Adrian. Both are obviously wanting to kiss but Rocky says (insert lust-filled heavy breathing) "I really want to kiss you" before they kiss. It was pretty steamy and a nice approach even if it was pretty damn obvious they both wanted to kiss. Fortunately he didn't break the mood and say "Yo Adrian" before telling her he wanted to kiss her :-)!Hm... my husband was definitely of the "asking first" variety, and I definitely appreciated that and preferred it actually.
To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.
I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"
While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.
Don't ask. As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop. That really would just mean that they're not that in to you. This one is in to you by the looks of it. Go take what you want. As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her. Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not. Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
Don't paint all WOMEN with the same brush. We aren't girls. And fuck aggressive a-holes. But not literally.
The fallacy with that example is you would be asking neither a person who has tried to date the demographic NOR the demographic itself.
I didn't check the bits and pieces to say for sure.
It sounds like you have a great plan, OP, and that things are going well.
I would gently caution you to be a little careful about worrying how you appear, or trying to figure out what kind of man she wants, as opposed to being yourself, acting naturally, and either attracting her, or not. While acting more naturally will probably mean more false starts and ended relationships, in the end, it is going to have the best likelihood of long term success, because long term you can't really sustain "acting" instead of "being". Really, it doesn't matter if 99% of women want an aggressive guy long term (to be clear, I don't think that's remotely true). Either you are that guy, or you aren't. And you don't have to please 99% of women. You only have to please one. If this girl, as great as she is, wants a traditional guy and you aren't that, she's probably not the one, any more than if you want a frugal girl (or some other attribute) and she's not, then she's probably not the one for you. She could act frugal and pretend to appreciate the ills of hedonistic adaptation, but that's unlikely to last and in a year, she's going to want to crank up the AC, if that's who she truly is at heart.
And that's why "approaches" and games and all that rarely lead to long term success. Sure, it seems to get some people laid, by certain types of women. But it doesn't seem to lead to healthy, long term, quietly happy marriages. Because people are pretending to be other than they are, and in a 50 year marriage, that's going to be impossible to maintain.
I really enjoyed this post and I agree completely. :)
Can you actually cite the study, not a news article.
You can read most abstracts online and get many full articles from your local library.Can you actually cite the study, not a news article.
Now you know how I feel when people cite IRS publications and other secondary sources rather than the law.
Note that this is actually an imperfect analogy because the Internal Revenue Code and regulations promulgated thereunder are freely available, whereas scientific studies are frequently available only through paid subscription services.
I know it's one am in the Midwest, but how did it go?!
I know it's one am in the Midwest, but how did it go?!
QuoteThe fallacy with that example is you would be asking neither a person who has tried to date the demographic NOR the demographic itself.
Huh? If you want to date gay men, and you are asking gay men for advice, presumably those men have in fact been dating gay men.
If you want to date a gay man, ask a gay man. If you want to date a straight woman, ask a straight woman. See? Your example could support either argument. It does seem less logically to ask a straight woman about dating a gay man. It doesn't support your side exclusively. It still supports that you should seek input from the target demographic.
QuoteIf you want to date a gay man, ask a gay man. If you want to date a straight woman, ask a straight woman. See? Your example could support either argument. It does seem less logically to ask a straight woman about dating a gay man. It doesn't support your side exclusively. It still supports that you should seek input from the target demographic.
No. Straight women have never tried to attract or date straight women, so they have no idea what works and what doesn't.
Gay men do try to date gay men, so they do know what works and what doesn't.
I know it's one am in the Midwest, but how did it go?!
QuoteIf you want to date a gay man, ask a gay man. If you want to date a straight woman, ask a straight woman. See? Your example could support either argument. It does seem less logically to ask a straight woman about dating a gay man. It doesn't support your side exclusively. It still supports that you should seek input from the target demographic.
No. Straight women have never tried to attract or date straight women, so they have no idea what works and what doesn't.
Gay men do try to date gay men, so they do know what works and what doesn't.
Straight women don't know what straight women like? That's a joke, right?
Sorry, just poking holes in your logic! I, personally, believe valuable input can be had from both sides. You are trying to defend a position with a faulty argument ;-)
QuoteStraight women don't know what straight women like? That's a joke, right?
A straight woman knows what she likes.
But she doesn't know what works to attract women in general, because she's never tried to.QuoteSorry, just poking holes in your logic! I, personally, believe valuable input can be had from both sides. You are trying to defend a position with a faulty argument ;-)
What holes? You said " The fallacy with that example is you would be asking neither a person who has tried to date the demographic NOR the demographic itself." which made no sense, as my example was talking about asking gay men what works, if you want to attract and date gay men.
It is not a good example of why you should NOT ask a straight woman how to date a straight woman. Your analogy says that asking a straight woman how to date a straight woman is like asking a straight woman/man/lesbian how to date a gay man. They don't have personal experience in courting a gay man and would be less insightful. But the analogy doesn't hold up. You could also use your example to say that if you want to date a gay man, ask a gay man BECAUSE he knows how he wants to be courted. Your example just doesn't add anything to your argument. See? I not, that's fine, too :-)
I know it's one am in the Midwest, but how did it go?!
Lol, she didn't come but instead went to another party. There were two things that were working against me. The first is that my friend's party is on the other side of town, and the second is that she wouldn't know anyone else there besides me.
In a way, I'm kinda glad she didn't come as the hosts put me on the spot in front of everyone. They did it mostly to try to embarrass me, and I'm sure that they wouldn't have done it had she come, but yeah I know that she would not have enjoyed it.
It is not a good example of why you should NOT ask a straight woman how to date a straight woman. Your analogy says that asking a straight woman how to date a straight woman is like asking a straight woman/man/lesbian how to date a gay man. They don't have personal experience in courting a gay man and would be less insightful. But the analogy doesn't hold up. You could also use your example to say that if you want to date a gay man, ask a gay man BECAUSE he knows how he wants to be courted. Your example just doesn't add anything to your argument. See? I not, that's fine, too :-)
When to bring up Mustachianism and finances? It's none of your frickin' business; you've just met this person. That's just bad manners. Might as well grill her on politics and and get her stance on abortion while you're at it.
Doesn't sound like your hyper passive approach is working out that well. She didn't go to the party where she could have kissed you. And you chose to attend a party so far away from her, where she wouldn't know anyone else - what were you thinking? Did you get scared? Why didn't you go to her?
I cant believe I just read this entire thread.
Back on topic, MgoSam, good luck, truly.