Author Topic: Spouse wants to tithe  (Read 6661 times)

Candace

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2019, 07:49:55 AM »
Just chiming in to say this thread has changed the way I think about tithing a bit. Thanks to everyone for helping me evolve my thinking and understanding.

I am a Jew by heritage and upbringing, and realized at 15 that I'm an atheist. I used to be way more against the idea of giving 10% (ten percent is a big chunk of your income!) to the church. Now, after reading some comments upthread about comparing the church services, classes and community to how much you'd pay for an analogous set of classes and activities, it makes a little more sense to me. I still do have a lot of negative feelings about churches, religion and especially Christianity with all of its hypocrisy these days, and would prefer that people just do their best to follow the Golden and Silver Rules. (The less-familiar Silver Rule states that anything you *wouldn't* want done to you, *don't* do to others.)

Having said that, I can acknowledge that lots of churches are performing important community services, and that takes money. I personally volunteer as a financial coach with a church-affiliated non-profit in my area, which provides a food bank, emergency help with financial needs, the financial coaching and other services. So some peoples' tithing is making my volunteer work possible. The organization is kind of an outsourcing and pooling of those churches' community service and charity. The recipients don't have to be church members.

Rdy2Fire

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2019, 07:52:28 AM »
Why not let God decide what He needs from you?  Take 10% of your earnings in paper cash, go into the largest room of your house and throw the money up in the air.  However much money God needs from you, He can keep.  Pickup whatever God doesn't need and invest it in VTSAX.

HA!! This actually gave me a good morning laugh; thanks!

TheAnonOne

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2019, 12:31:27 PM »
Oooof.......

Ouch....

Dang man......

Yikes.......

Icky...

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2019, 01:47:18 PM »
I'd use extreme caution about this type of situation. Just because you don't believe, you could make her feel as if her faith is somehow wrong or otherwise cause a rift in your relationship that could end it eventually. Your few lines of summary are pretty harsh, so I can only imagine how you're dealing with it WITH her, and it ain't likely to bode well for y'all if that comes across in any shape or form.

She is apparently very drawn to the idea of rediscovering her faith. Don't denigrate it to her. She already knows that you're not religious, so I would tell her that despite your lack of belief, if it is important to her to recommit to her religion/beliefs AND tithing is something that she feels she must do, then you support HER doing so with HER income. Help her figure out that amount and tell her she has your full support. And make sure to NOT harp on the lack of understanding or calling "her" god an asshole. And don't start in on the bookkeeping stuff about how SHE will have to keep working and you're going to keep saving and FIRE without her... it sounds really... bad. You're a team; if you start bringing in the whole "I get mine, don't care about what happens to you" stuff, well geeze, might as well get the divorce papers ready to go, because you couldn't be more clear about how little you do actually care about her. If you love her and want to be with her forever then you need to compromise and remember this is a part of her that makes up the whole. You can't pick and choose the pieces you want her to have - either accept that this is something she wants/is, and do your best to work with her on it in a loving and compassionate manner.

You should probably have many sitdowns with her over the next few months/years to see what is driving her to become more religious. She sounds like something has been flipped in her that is pretty life-changing to go so hard into being a Christian again, and you need to understand it even if you don't share her beliefs.

It's not a requirement for a couple to have the same faith; but it is vital that you both are understanding and supportive of the other's right to have or not have any. And to have the respect of their partners to practice their religion (or in your case, not pressure you into believing) in whatever way they see fit to do so.



I'd say this is excellent advice.

You may not understand it (I'm not a fan of it either), but tithing is extremely important to many Christians. Equating tithing with spending money on a hobby, as someone above suggested, would be an excellent way to cause a potentially permanent rift in the marriage.


I find this approach a little concerning. This indicates that the non-believer needs to somehow have a greater understanding of the spouse's beliefs than vice versa.

So basically - for a spouse who thinks tithing is flushing money down the toilet, it isn't enough that they agree to the spending as discretionary, they need to....what exactly? Pretend to see some greater picture that they don't see?

Because if you don't believe, and you don't see any value in churches or tithing, you need to pretend or cause a rift?

So no, "basically pretending" is not what this is about. I would not suggest pretending. Not sure where you got the idea that having an honest discussion about the fact that OP is not religious but accepts that his spouse is and thinks it okay to tithe to her church if they do good work anyway is "pretending." Are they being made to lie to others that they are religious? Does the religious spouse demand that the non-religious one observe all their customs? If so, then that would be pretending (and wrong of her to demand), but I'm not getting that vibe from the OP.

And I think the issue here is because the tithing/donating of money to a charitable cause comes in a religious wrapper - does that mean all the good a church does is now tainted or somehow flushing money down a toilet? No, it does not. If a church is doing good things, supporting them means they continue to do good things. Don't like shitty churches that spend money on inflated salaries for assholes that abuse religion in the name of getting rich? Make sure the church in question isn't like that, and there's not really an issue here.

If OP's wife's church supports something fundamentally wrong like say, persecuting non-white or non-binary people for instance, I could see this being a situation where the OP could use that as an argument to not support the wife's involvement. Supporting practices that you find against your own moral code is a hill to die on as far as I'm concerned. But again, it would be a discussion with the wife to understand why she thinks this is okay, and why you don't. And if you can't figure out something that works for the both of you... staying in a relationship with someone that has such opposing views/beliefs is unlikely to be healthy or happy for either of you.

And if you are so anti religion that the very idea of having a churchy wrapper on even a portion of your family's charitable work/giving is a bridge too far to compromise, you need to say so and realize that the relationship with someone that IS religious now has an expiration date because you can't see your way forward to respect THEIR beliefs. But there is no room for "I get to say 100% how OUR relationship will be and make all decisions without any consideration of my partner because I am right always" because that means you want a doormat that has no feelings/thoughts/wants/needs other than what you allow them.


If your partner suggests something that is not acceptable to you... you'll be left with two paths in the end: find a healthy compromise to preserve the union, or leave it. You both always have choices, but realizing that there isn't a healthy choice C where you get to lock down everything your partner does if you don't agree with it. And pretending, lying or compromising your core beliefs is NOT part of a healthy compromise.






ditheca

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2019, 04:45:10 PM »
I think tithing is when the rich give to the poor.  You aren't rich yet.

I disagree.  OP makes almost 100k/year.  That's three times more than required to be in the top 1% globally. 

With their savings rate, they are probably rapidly approaching a net worth of 700k; that puts them in the top 1% in that category too.

I've lived in places where people are "not rich," and none of them frequented this forum...

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2019, 07:11:47 PM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Hula Hoop

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2019, 02:31:52 AM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Not Catholic but if I were I would never give to that Church as they are incredibly wealthy.  Have you ever been to the Vatican?  And their real estate holdings are insane. 

Imma

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2019, 03:41:43 AM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Not Catholic but if I were I would never give to that Church as they are incredibly wealthy.  Have you ever been to the Vatican?  And their real estate holdings are insane.

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.

I remember all too well that time when my grandfather died and the priest came by his house the next day to talk about the funeral and he expressed an interest in being gifted some of my grandfather's valuable possesions. Didn't even wait until he was buried.

If I were OP, I'd find out if your wife's church also has suborganizations whose mission you can support and that are transparant about money. I understand you not wanting to fill a priest's pockets but I also understand your wife's desire to give to the less fortunate. I still read the Bible quite often and what it says is give to the poor, to the windows and orphans, to the hungry - it doesn't say give to the rich. Any church with significant sums of money in their accounts isn't doing what they're supposed to do.

marty998

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2019, 05:39:52 AM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Not Catholic but if I were I would never give to that Church as they are incredibly wealthy.  Have you ever been to the Vatican?  And their real estate holdings are insane.

2000 years of compound interest will do that for you.

mistymoney

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2019, 06:23:12 AM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Not Catholic but if I were I would never give to that Church as they are incredibly wealthy.  Have you ever been to the Vatican?  And their real estate holdings are insane.

I have been to the vatican and it is breathtaking, so on one score - kudos to the catholic church for amassing and protecting that art through the ages.

Some parishes in american cities have "gone out of business" - closed down - for lack of funds. So - I'm not sure how the glory of the vatican is meaningful here. And anyway - didn't get the sense that OP's wife was catholic? but maybe?


mistymoney

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2019, 06:25:18 AM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Not Catholic but if I were I would never give to that Church as they are incredibly wealthy.  Have you ever been to the Vatican?  And their real estate holdings are insane.

2000 years of compound interest will do that for you.

that's really a fascinating thing to think about. I'd be really interested in like a college course just on the financial history of the catholic church!

Linea_Norway

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2019, 06:33:17 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

insufFIcientfunds

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2019, 06:50:30 AM »
“You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.”

- L. Ron Hubbard

slappy

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2019, 06:57:31 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

Ours was a basket that was handed around by an usher. They do provide envelopes if you want to be more discreet. It seems like a black bag could encourage people to take out vs putting in.

It sounds crazy, but people do steal in churches. At my old church, someone's purse was stolen from the sanctuary. We've also heard about people who attend church, and then when the congregation goes up to communion, that person will snag what purses are left behind. I personally never brought my phone or a purse to church, but my husband always told his mom and sister to carry their purse up to communion with them.

elliha

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2019, 07:17:24 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

Ours was a basket that was handed around by an usher. They do provide envelopes if you want to be more discreet. It seems like a black bag could encourage people to take out vs putting in.

It sounds crazy, but people do steal in churches. At my old church, someone's purse was stolen from the sanctuary. We've also heard about people who attend church, and then when the congregation goes up to communion, that person will snag what purses are left behind. I personally never brought my phone or a purse to church, but my husband always told his mom and sister to carry their purse up to communion with them.

Ours is a basket too but you can donate electronically through an app or by swiping your card on the "collection machine" too. Most donations are digital in my congregation but I don't know about other places. We have discussed providing a basket of pretty rocks or something like that for those who want to put something in the collection basket after donating in other ways but not yet settled on anything. I think it would be a good thing to make the collection feel more unified than it does now although the phone and card options are great. I almost always donate that way myself.

DadJokes

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2019, 07:35:36 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

Ours was a basket that was handed around by an usher. They do provide envelopes if you want to be more discreet. It seems like a black bag could encourage people to take out vs putting in.

It sounds crazy, but people do steal in churches. At my old church, someone's purse was stolen from the sanctuary. We've also heard about people who attend church, and then when the congregation goes up to communion, that person will snag what purses are left behind. I personally never brought my phone or a purse to church, but my husband always told his mom and sister to carry their purse up to communion with them.

Ours is a basket too but you can donate electronically through an app or by swiping your card on the "collection machine" too. Most donations are digital in my congregation but I don't know about other places. We have discussed providing a basket of pretty rocks or something like that for those who want to put something in the collection basket after donating in other ways but not yet settled on anything. I think it would be a good thing to make the collection feel more unified than it does now although the phone and card options are great. I almost always donate that way myself.

Our church has these options as well. I figure that we can put the tithe on the credit card to add some points. My wife wants to write checks instead, because it makes her feel like she's doing something.

I just have to shake my head sometimes.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2019, 07:50:11 AM »
You should come up with some witty dad jokes about this situation.

OtherJen

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2019, 07:59:49 AM »
Blows my mind that tithing is a thing. I grew in a Roman Catholic family who gave more then I care to admit to the church, and the church did exactly what with that money? Only god knows, and the priest, who happened to drive a really nice car :)

Not Catholic but if I were I would never give to that Church as they are incredibly wealthy.  Have you ever been to the Vatican?  And their real estate holdings are insane.

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.

I remember all too well that time when my grandfather died and the priest came by his house the next day to talk about the funeral and he expressed an interest in being gifted some of my grandfather's valuable possesions. Didn't even wait until he was buried.

If I were OP, I'd find out if your wife's church also has suborganizations whose mission you can support and that are transparant about money. I understand you not wanting to fill a priest's pockets but I also understand your wife's desire to give to the less fortunate. I still read the Bible quite often and what it says is give to the poor, to the windows and orphans, to the hungry - it doesn't say give to the rich. Any church with significant sums of money in their accounts isn't doing what they're supposed to do.

My former parish (I’m also lapsed Catholic) had “poor boxes” at the doors, and all donations into those went straight to the local Society of St. Vincent de Paul. That was my favorite monetary donation option because 1) I knew that the money was spent almost entirely on emergency food, clothing, and shelter for the poor, with very little overhead and 2) none of the money went to the Archdiocese to pay for legal defense fees in the never-ending sex abuse scandal.

On the extremely rare occasion that I make a donation in a Catholic Church, it goes to that organization. They’re good people and they do important work.

thesis

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2019, 09:57:10 AM »
I'm amused how pastors are never allowed to own nice cars :). On the one hand, I get it, on the other hand, there's a tremendous amount of anti-wealth bias in the culture at large. You also have to realize that while churches are full of volunteers, the people who work there still have to earn a living, and offering pennies for a full-time position doesn't necessary get you the best pool of applicants. As we mustachians know, anyone can get caught up believing they need things they really don't. We all live in the same dumb culture. Quite a few hard-working people who really deserve to earn more simply don't because they want to "do the right thing" or "make a difference". Just some thoughts.

I think a lot of churches stretch themselves thin program-wise; they really back themselves into a corner with this and that, and once you've created those structures, you're stuck, because cancelling programs bruises egos and then you get a mix of bitter people :O (this is one reason I avoid churches that are really large, it just gets ridiculous and they to tend to push tithing a little more if they've swamped themselves with programs)

My own church actually gives a certain percentage of their money to other churches in the area that need some help. They really don't even need a decent portion of what comes in, so they find ways to give it away or pour into the community at large. They've given large sums to people in the church who were struggling, too, especially single parents. Makes it easy to tithe. Just saying, some churches are worth tithing to.

Pigeon

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2019, 11:32:27 AM »
I don't have a positive view of religion at all, and think it is hugely negative.  I'm not supporting it in any way.

If I were in your case, I would want to separate our finances completely and I'd focus on my own FIRE in this situation, unless she was willing to have the tithing come entirely from her discretionary funds in a shared finances situation.  I would arrange it so we divide up  the household bills and she pays her share and you pay yours.  She can do whatever she wants with the rest. 

DadJokes

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2019, 12:01:43 PM »
I don't have a positive view of religion at all, and think it is hugely negative.  I'm not supporting it in any way.

If I were in your case, I would want to separate our finances completely and I'd focus on my own FIRE in this situation, unless she was willing to have the tithing come entirely from her discretionary funds in a shared finances situation.  I would arrange it so we divide up  the household bills and she pays her share and you pay yours.  She can do whatever she wants with the rest.

That's called a roommate, not a spouse. No thanks.

MilesTeg

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2019, 12:44:55 PM »
I don't have a positive view of religion at all, and think it is hugely negative.  I'm not supporting it in any way.

If I were in your case, I would want to separate our finances completely and I'd focus on my own FIRE in this situation, unless she was willing to have the tithing come entirely from her discretionary funds in a shared finances situation.  I would arrange it so we divide up  the household bills and she pays her share and you pay yours.  She can do whatever she wants with the rest.

That's called a roommate, not a spouse. No thanks.

While I agree the advice here is a bit extreme, setting up an "allowance" for each spouse to do with as they see fit is very common and works very well in my (admittedly limited) experience. That "allowance" is only contributed to after all financial obligations and mutually agreed upon goals (including savings) are fulfilled. You just have to come to an agreement about how much it is, if it's scaled to individual income (not recommended), and other details but would allow you both to have some financial 'independence' from each other which is a very healthy thing IMO. Much better than one spouse or the other dictating all financial decisions.

That's how we arrange it. I blow mine on computer parts and other things which my lady is not at all interested in but bring me joy, and there's no resentment for that building up between us because she has her own to do with as she pleases.

Imma

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2019, 01:27:55 PM »
I'm amused how pastors are never allowed to own nice cars :). On the one hand, I get it, on the other hand, there's a tremendous amount of anti-wealth bias in the culture at large. You also have to realize that while churches are full of volunteers, the people who work there still have to earn a living, and offering pennies for a full-time position doesn't necessary get you the best pool of applicants. As we mustachians know, anyone can get caught up believing they need things they really don't. We all live in the same dumb culture. Quite a few hard-working people who really deserve to earn more simply don't because they want to "do the right thing" or "make a difference". Just some thoughts.


Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

I don't think it's 'anti-wealth bias' but rather the core of the message of Jesus, who was basically a very radical proto-mustachian. I know some people have different thoughts about the message of the gospel but this is my interpretation. Someone who wants to drive a nice car doesn't get the message and therefore would be unsuitable for any church I'd attend.

@Linea_Norway I've only attended catholic Mass and for the collection during the service I've only ever seen a wicker basket. Yes, it would be possible to see what others donate but I think they already put in some coins beforehand so you can add your money semi-discreetly. Of course if someone drops a bill in it instead of coins everyone knows because of the lack of sound. The donation boxes by the doors are closed. Some people put an envelope in the basket, especially around Christmas when people feel like they should make a bigger donation. It might be different in protestant churches, I've never been to one of those.

GuitarStv

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2019, 01:32:09 PM »
I'm amused how pastors are never allowed to own nice cars :). On the one hand, I get it, on the other hand, there's a tremendous amount of anti-wealth bias in the culture at large. You also have to realize that while churches are full of volunteers, the people who work there still have to earn a living, and offering pennies for a full-time position doesn't necessary get you the best pool of applicants. As we mustachians know, anyone can get caught up believing they need things they really don't. We all live in the same dumb culture. Quite a few hard-working people who really deserve to earn more simply don't because they want to "do the right thing" or "make a difference". Just some thoughts.


Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

I don't think it's 'anti-wealth bias' but rather the core of the message of Jesus, who was basically a very radical proto-mustachian. I know some people have different thoughts about the message of the gospel but this is my interpretation. Someone who wants to drive a nice car doesn't get the message and therefore would be unsuitable for any church I'd attend.

Jesus was extremely anti-wealthy in a great number of his sermons.  Given that, I'd be very skeptical about any professed messenger of his word who was flaunting expensive worldly possessions.

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2019, 02:21:24 PM »
I don't have a positive view of religion at all, and think it is hugely negative.  I'm not supporting it in any way.

If I were in your case, I would want to separate our finances completely and I'd focus on my own FIRE in this situation, unless she was willing to have the tithing come entirely from her discretionary funds in a shared finances situation.  I would arrange it so we divide up  the household bills and she pays her share and you pay yours.  She can do whatever she wants with the rest.

That's called a roommate, not a spouse. No thanks.

Tons of married couples keep separate finances for various reasons.  We don't, but if one of us wanted to spend substantial amounts of money on something the other one was quite opposed to, we wouldn't have  a problem with it.  Lots of couples here do it.

slappy

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2019, 04:47:21 PM »
I'm amused how pastors are never allowed to own nice cars :). On the one hand, I get it, on the other hand, there's a tremendous amount of anti-wealth bias in the culture at large. You also have to realize that while churches are full of volunteers, the people who work there still have to earn a living, and offering pennies for a full-time position doesn't necessary get you the best pool of applicants. As we mustachians know, anyone can get caught up believing they need things they really don't. We all live in the same dumb culture. Quite a few hard-working people who really deserve to earn more simply don't because they want to "do the right thing" or "make a difference". Just some thoughts.


Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

I don't think it's 'anti-wealth bias' but rather the core of the message of Jesus, who was basically a very radical proto-mustachian. I know some people have different thoughts about the message of the gospel but this is my interpretation. Someone who wants to drive a nice car doesn't get the message and therefore would be unsuitable for any church I'd attend.

@Linea_Norway I've only attended catholic Mass and for the collection during the service I've only ever seen a wicker basket. Yes, it would be possible to see what others donate but I think they already put in some coins beforehand so you can add your money semi-discreetly. Of course if someone drops a bill in it instead of coins everyone knows because of the lack of sound. The donation boxes by the doors are closed. Some people put an envelope in the basket, especially around Christmas when people feel like they should make a bigger donation. It might be different in protestant churches, I've never been to one of those.

Not all Catholic priests take a vow of poverty. Ours was a Franciscan and had taken the vow, which is why we chose that parish. In the parish my husband grew up in, the priest was more about money. We heard from a friend that went there that if that priest didn't think they collected enough, he would pass the basket again. No way would we go to that parish!

erutio

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2019, 05:33:19 PM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

MOD NOTE: We don't need to go there.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 11:25:21 AM by arebelspy »

insufFIcientfunds

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2019, 05:58:24 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.

PoutineLover

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2019, 06:14:27 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.

Enough of them did though, and the people in charge decided that instead of kicking them out and allowing them to be charged and punished for their crimes, they covered it up and shuffled them around to new churches where they could abuse some more kids. Every organization could have abusers, it's the response that shows what type of place it really is.
Personally, I would never tithe, and luckily my partner is on the same page. If he somehow changed, I would insist that tithing come from his personal spending, and not at the expense of our shared obligations and goals.

slappy

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2019, 06:33:23 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.

This seems to be a common view of the Catholic church. My husband grew up Catholic and felt this way. He stopped going to church after the whole sex abuse scandal was exposed.  It definitely is hard to shake the thought that so many priests hurt children and the church covers it up.

GuitarStv

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2019, 06:58:29 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.

Enough of them did though, and the people in charge decided that instead of kicking them out and allowing them to be charged and punished for their crimes, they covered it up and shuffled them around to new churches where they could abuse some more kids. Every organization could have abusers, it's the response that shows what type of place it really is.
Personally, I would never tithe, and luckily my partner is on the same page. If he somehow changed, I would insist that tithing come from his personal spending, and not at the expense of our shared obligations and goals.

In any organization where a large number of people are exposed to children the problem of sexual abuse will crop up from time to time.   Catholic priests didn't rape children at a significantly greater rate than leaders of other churches did.  It was the response of the church that really caused the problem.  The Catholic church discovered that a small percentage of their priests were raping children . . . and then decided to hide and protect the priests.  As mentioned, these rapist priests were quietly given new and unsuspecting children to rape over and over again by the church.  For decades.

It's difficult to see how a rot that deep could ever fully be excised from an organization.

Imma

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2019, 07:48:51 AM »
The leaders of the Church are all certainly culpable - from a certain level I'm sure everyone knew about it. But you can't hold every individual priest responsible because of a minority of them were sex offenders. For this reason, I personally choose to donate only to specific funds that benefit people who need help and not to the Church's general fund.

That being said I don't think it's impossible for the Catholic church to recover from this. It's important to note that most of these offences happened during a time when there was little awareness of sexual abuse. Many people who were either victims or witnesses literally had no concept of sexual abuse and didn't know the words to speak about it. Even though someone might have had a bad gut feeling, they couldn't raise the alarm because it wasn't something people talked about.

When the generation who covered this up has died out and a new generation has been trained in talking about sexuality, consent, abuse behaviour etc I don't see why the Church wouldn't be able to recover from this period. Another major thing that has changed is the attitude of parents, even Catholic parents. They are a lot less likely to agree to cover up the situation now. In the past many families of victims (inside and outside the Church) were trying to keep things quiet to make sure the family's reputation wasn't damaged.

erutio

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2019, 08:11:11 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing I posted is false.  And I didn't say "all priests, ministers, whomever" committed rapes.  I'm implying the Church knew about it, covered it up, and then protected the rapists.  I lost faith in the church, the whole ideology and institution.  But the individual priests I knew growing up, I still respect and have fond memories of.

And people use the words sexual abuse and "commit crimes", but let's call it what it is, little kids getting raped.

Rosy

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2019, 08:17:40 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.


No, it isn't a "pretty fucked up" post - it is an "uncomfortable" truth. Priests do have access and a few are indeed pedophiles. The difference is that to this very day the Catholic church still protects them - I'd call that "pretty fucked up".

It isn't any more outrageous than what the OP wrote in his opening post about Jesus being an a-hole.

Quote
It means a lot to her, but I just can’t wrap my head around why people fall for this stuff. They’re guilting people into giving money, to the point where it hurts relationships-
all for a deity who, from my understanding of the Bible, is kind of an asshole even if he is real.

It seems ethically and morally wrong to suspend your own core beliefs and instead - support and perpetuate such an a-hole belief system - by tithing and attending church.
She, on the other hand, is exhibiting the backbone to stand up for her re-discovered faith... (and may yet push for more acquiescence in the future).
Modified to add: Worse, if she's being "persuaded and guilted" into giving more than you find acceptable or wise given your finances and future plans.

I'm cringing at the thought that you are fine attending church yet are only concerned the moment you realize that there will be financial repercussions to your fire plans if you increase your tithing. I don't have any advice to give, my life experiences too different from what you are describing, but there are plenty of options suggested in this thread to choose from and choices you could consider. I actually like the idea of her giving her entire salary to the church once she retires and hold off on tithing for now:).
All in all, you sound like a good guy and a loving husband who is already giving to charity on his own terms and like you said, "can't wrap your head around why people fall for this stuff".
I do hope that whatever solution/compromise you settle for will work for both of you in the years to come. Faith, religion and money are tough issues to deal with in even the best, rock-solid marriages. 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 08:28:45 AM by Rosy »

OtherJen

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2019, 09:10:12 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing I posted is false.  And I didn't say "all priests, ministers, whomever" committed rapes.  I'm implying the Church knew about it, covered it up, and then protected the rapists.  I lost faith in the church, the whole ideology and institution.  But the individual priests I knew growing up, I still respect and have fond memories of.

And people use the words sexual abuse and "commit crimes", but let's call it what it is, little kids getting raped.

All of this. I personally know plenty of faithful Catholics and several Catholic priests who would rather die than harm a child. Doesn't change the fact that the institutional church covered up child rape and molestation by priests for centuries and continues to do so. It also doesn't change the fact that some percentage of tithes to parishes moves up the chain to the diocese/archdiocese and has been used to protect child rapists.

gaja

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2019, 09:44:22 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

Ours was a basket that was handed around by an usher. They do provide envelopes if you want to be more discreet. It seems like a black bag could encourage people to take out vs putting in.

It sounds crazy, but people do steal in churches. At my old church, someone's purse was stolen from the sanctuary. We've also heard about people who attend church, and then when the congregation goes up to communion, that person will snag what purses are left behind. I personally never brought my phone or a purse to church, but my husband always told his mom and sister to carry their purse up to communion with them.

Ours is a basket too but you can donate electronically through an app or by swiping your card on the "collection machine" too. Most donations are digital in my congregation but I don't know about other places. We have discussed providing a basket of pretty rocks or something like that for those who want to put something in the collection basket after donating in other ways but not yet settled on anything. I think it would be a good thing to make the collection feel more unified than it does now although the phone and card options are great. I almost always donate that way myself.

Our church has these options as well. I figure that we can put the tithe on the credit card to add some points. My wife wants to write checks instead, because it makes her feel like she's doing something.

I just have to shake my head sometimes.

Not my culture, not my faith, so I might be completely off base here, but: I thought tithing was something you did because you feel it is morally right to do, and something between yourself and your deity. But if she needs to write physical checks rather than use a credit card, it sounds more like an answer to peer pressure; tithing to let the others see that she is contributing a big fat check.

It might be my protestant upbringing, and maybe a bit of "no true scotsman", but in my opinion it is not true charity unless you can be happy donating in complete secrecy. If you donate in return for some sort of recognition (a plaque, a thank you letter, good standing with the neighbours) it is simply a way to buy a good reputation. Which might be good for business, and I don't mind at all if someone is honest about sponsoring to be a part of the community. But if someone claims they are tithing or donating for their own soul and faith, I would expect them to do so in the most efficient way possible, without bragging.

robartsd

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2019, 10:11:01 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.
The only thing I see as a problem with erutio's logic is that he projects the Catholic church's protection of abusive priests onto other Christian based churches. I'm not aware of any other major Christian denomination that has suffered such a cover up scandal - most would quickly expel the abuser from any position which would give him access to children (or completely excommunicate them from the church) and stay out of any legal proceedings involving the individual (of course if the organization is named in legal proceedings they would defend the organization citing policies in place to prevent abuse).

partgypsy

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2019, 10:11:06 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

Ours was a basket that was handed around by an usher. They do provide envelopes if you want to be more discreet. It seems like a black bag could encourage people to take out vs putting in.

It sounds crazy, but people do steal in churches. At my old church, someone's purse was stolen from the sanctuary. We've also heard about people who attend church, and then when the congregation goes up to communion, that person will snag what purses are left behind. I personally never brought my phone or a purse to church, but my husband always told his mom and sister to carry their purse up to communion with them.

Ours is a basket too but you can donate electronically through an app or by swiping your card on the "collection machine" too. Most donations are digital in my congregation but I don't know about other places. We have discussed providing a basket of pretty rocks or something like that for those who want to put something in the collection basket after donating in other ways but not yet settled on anything. I think it would be a good thing to make the collection feel more unified than it does now although the phone and card options are great. I almost always donate that way myself.

Our church has these options as well. I figure that we can put the tithe on the credit card to add some points. My wife wants to write checks instead, because it makes her feel like she's doing something.

I just have to shake my head sometimes.

Not my culture, not my faith, so I might be completely off base here, but: I thought tithing was something you did because you feel it is morally right to do, and something between yourself and your deity. But if she needs to write physical checks rather than use a credit card, it sounds more like an answer to peer pressure; tithing to let the others see that she is contributing a big fat check.

It might be my protestant upbringing, and maybe a bit of "no true scotsman", but in my opinion it is not true charity unless you can be happy donating in complete secrecy. If you donate in return for some sort of recognition (a plaque, a thank you letter, good standing with the neighbours) it is simply a way to buy a good reputation. Which might be good for business, and I don't mind at all if someone is honest about sponsoring to be a part of the community. But if someone claims they are tithing or donating for their own soul and faith, I would expect them to do so in the most efficient way possible, without bragging.

Yes that does seem true. But - first of all the church is a social community with its own rules and society. People who donate both feel good about it, and get kudos/increased prestige  from others, who would want to give that up? Second, seeing other people donate, creates peer pressure for others to donate. In the same way seeing people donating higher amounts, may prompt people to give more. It's the same reason with telethons they show people and amounts people are donating. From a business perspective, there is a reason churches pass the basket rather than the bag.

partgypsy

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2019, 10:13:25 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.
The only thing I see as a problem with erutio's logic is that he projects the Catholic church's protection of abusive priests onto other Christian based churches. I'm not aware of any other major Christian denomination that has suffered such a cover up scandal - most would quickly expel the abuser from any position which would give him access to children (or completely excommunicate them from the church) and stay out of any legal proceedings involving the individual (of course if the organization is named in legal proceedings they would defend the organization citing policies in place to prevent abuse).

There are a number of Baptist, evangelical churches who had scandals with church members and clergy molestation and rape, and not protecting the victim but the church member. Also with wives suffering domestic abuse and being advised to stay with the husband. I'm surprised you haven't heard about it.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.php
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 10:16:06 AM by partgypsy »

jps

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2019, 10:14:15 AM »

As a lapsed Catholic who only attends Mass at Christmas, I always make sure I don't make any donations to the general church funds - I'll just put a random coin from my wallet on the collection plate, then on the way out I make a generous donation in the donation box next to the door for their mission to the homeless, which is a legally separate entity that publishes its accounts on its website.


You are the second person in this thread mentioning a collection "plate". The few times I have attended a church in my life, there was always sent around a black, cloth bag for collection. Is a plate supposed to show off to the next person how much you donated? I think a black bag would be much more descrete.

Ours was a basket that was handed around by an usher. They do provide envelopes if you want to be more discreet. It seems like a black bag could encourage people to take out vs putting in.

It sounds crazy, but people do steal in churches. At my old church, someone's purse was stolen from the sanctuary. We've also heard about people who attend church, and then when the congregation goes up to communion, that person will snag what purses are left behind. I personally never brought my phone or a purse to church, but my husband always told his mom and sister to carry their purse up to communion with them.

Ours is a basket too but you can donate electronically through an app or by swiping your card on the "collection machine" too. Most donations are digital in my congregation but I don't know about other places. We have discussed providing a basket of pretty rocks or something like that for those who want to put something in the collection basket after donating in other ways but not yet settled on anything. I think it would be a good thing to make the collection feel more unified than it does now although the phone and card options are great. I almost always donate that way myself.

Our church has these options as well. I figure that we can put the tithe on the credit card to add some points. My wife wants to write checks instead, because it makes her feel like she's doing something.

I just have to shake my head sometimes.

Not my culture, not my faith, so I might be completely off base here, but: I thought tithing was something you did because you feel it is morally right to do, and something between yourself and your deity. But if she needs to write physical checks rather than use a credit card, it sounds more like an answer to peer pressure; tithing to let the others see that she is contributing a big fat check.

It might be my protestant upbringing, and maybe a bit of "no true scotsman", but in my opinion it is not true charity unless you can be happy donating in complete secrecy. If you donate in return for some sort of recognition (a plaque, a thank you letter, good standing with the neighbours) it is simply a way to buy a good reputation. Which might be good for business, and I don't mind at all if someone is honest about sponsoring to be a part of the community. But if someone claims they are tithing or donating for their own soul and faith, I would expect them to do so in the most efficient way possible, without bragging.

You're not off base. You're right that giving is something between yourself and your deity. However, maybe writing checks sends more of a mental trigger to her that says "I am giving money to church" than using a card through an app/online. I use a card for the majority of my transactions, so writing helps my brain realize, "this is different. I am doing this on purpose. It is important."

Just to say, checks don't necessarily mean that you're seeking approval or status from peers.

GuitarStv

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:02 AM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.
The only thing I see as a problem with erutio's logic is that he projects the Catholic church's protection of abusive priests onto other Christian based churches. I'm not aware of any other major Christian denomination that has suffered such a cover up scandal - most would quickly expel the abuser from any position which would give him access to children (or completely excommunicate them from the church) and stay out of any legal proceedings involving the individual (of course if the organization is named in legal proceedings they would defend the organization citing policies in place to prevent abuse).

There are a number of Baptist, evangelical churches who had scandals with church members and clergy molestation and rape, and not protecting the victim but the church member. Also with wives suffering domestic abuse and being advised to stay with the husband. I'm surprised you haven't heard about it.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.php

Yep.  Not limited to Christian organizations either.  There exist examples of sex abuse scandals and cover-ups in a number of religions.  It seems to be a pretty natural reaction for many organizations to try and sweep unsavory things under the rug and hide them - but there are greater stakes when the organization is telling people that they're the holder of  some sort of moral high ground.

Imma

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2019, 01:20:55 PM »
...
Well I was talking about (catholic) priests, who have made a vow of poverty, so no, the whole point of that is you don't get to own a nice car. Yes, it's a very demanding job and you get very little in return, except for living rent-free in some of the nicest real estate in the city with a fulltime housekeeper. But that's the deal they signed up for.

You forget the biggest benefit, lifetime access to little boys to rape, with full legal protection provided by the church. 

I grew up Catholic, though I don't go to church anymore.  But the above is the reason I lost faith in any Christian based churches and wouldn't support tithing them.

That's a pretty fucked up post there. Sorry you lost your faith, but not all priests, ministers, whomever commit crimes against children.
The only thing I see as a problem with erutio's logic is that he projects the Catholic church's protection of abusive priests onto other Christian based churches. I'm not aware of any other major Christian denomination that has suffered such a cover up scandal - most would quickly expel the abuser from any position which would give him access to children (or completely excommunicate them from the church) and stay out of any legal proceedings involving the individual (of course if the organization is named in legal proceedings they would defend the organization citing policies in place to prevent abuse).

There are a number of Baptist, evangelical churches who had scandals with church members and clergy molestation and rape, and not protecting the victim but the church member. Also with wives suffering domestic abuse and being advised to stay with the husband. I'm surprised you haven't heard about it.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.php

Yep.  Not limited to Christian organizations either.  There exist examples of sex abuse scandals and cover-ups in a number of religions.  It seems to be a pretty natural reaction for many organizations to try and sweep unsavory things under the rug and hide them - but there are greater stakes when the organization is telling people that they're the holder of  some sort of moral high ground.

Not many churches are as organized as the Catholic church, which is why such a massive conspiracy was even possible. But abuse scandals definitely also happen in other churches and also in other religions. I can imagine that on the other hand of the spectrum small churches ran by the founder and their family are also a very fertile ground for coverups of abusive behaviour.

There is an abuse scandal unravelling among Jehova's Witnesses in the Netherlands right now and I've read about similar things about Scientology. Where there are power structures, there is abuse, plain and simple.

BicycleB

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2019, 01:55:02 PM »

...maybe writing checks sends more of a mental trigger to her that says "I am giving money to church" than using a card through an app/online. I use a card for the majority of my transactions, so writing helps my brain realize, "this is different. I am doing this on purpose. It is important."

Just to say, checks don't necessarily mean that you're seeking approval or status from peers.

@jps, really good point!!

DadJokes

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2019, 04:36:25 PM »

...maybe writing checks sends more of a mental trigger to her that says "I am giving money to church" than using a card through an app/online. I use a card for the majority of my transactions, so writing helps my brain realize, "this is different. I am doing this on purpose. It is important."

Just to say, checks don't necessarily mean that you're seeking approval or status from peers.

@jps, really good point!!

And that sounds more accurate, knowing my wife. Also, we don’t generally sit near anyone we know, since her friends at the church go to a later service.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:07:51 PM by DadJokes »

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2019, 07:04:21 PM »
Your relationship with your wife is more important than money. And I assume her relationship with you is more important than money to her. So you both compromise in a very clear and simple way. She wants to tithe 10%. You don't want to tithe. Maybe you tithe 5%.

mastrr

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2019, 08:12:55 PM »
good for her

Sailor Sam

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2019, 08:20:20 PM »
@DadJokes, I think a good point to keep in mind, in order to meet your spouse with joy and respect, is that being 'mustachian' is just as weird, socially awkward, and flat fucking crazy as being 'religious.' Being deeply into either is not the social norm.

We all bring our own kinda crazy into our marriages. It's just that my specific kind of crazy is obviously very logical, whereas her's is, well, crazy. She of course feels the same, but inverse. I like the Jesus dude, and I do donate 10% to charities of my choosing, but the older I get the more I realize there are vanishingly few objective rights or wrongs in the world. Your marriage is what you forge it out of, though the good ones do seem to have a common theme of shared vulnerability and respect.

Like others have suggested, I'd say you need to be open with your wife, and you need to be curious. Ask her 'why' a lot, in a genuine bid to know her better. If things are going right, she'll be curious back, and ask you why, and want to know you better. And thus, you forge a marriage. It's not always comfortable, but it's almost always worth it.

I’m a Christian husband and I second the suggestion above - lovingly invoke Ephesians 5:22-24.  :)
Whooo, boy. All I can picture is my wife lovingly burning all of my shit on the front lawn, in a fiery and pointed lesson on religion and modernity should I ever claim to tell her what to do. But what does it matter? Because she's a goddamn miracle of evolution and/or creation (pick your poison), and she frequently smells good, and she sometimes does that mysteriously feminine thing where she bends over her own knees to clip her toenails, and how do they do that? It's a mystery, and I love the beating heart of the whole thing.

mastrr

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2019, 08:58:59 PM »
Quote
We all bring our own kinda crazy into our marriages. It's just that my specific kind of crazy is obviously very logical, whereas her's is, well, crazy.

What makes her beliefs crazy?

Quote
but the older I get the more I realize there are vanishingly few objective rights or wrongs in the world.

is it that her beliefs are actually crazy or you just think that

GuitarStv

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2019, 09:04:17 PM »
I’m a Christian husband and I second the suggestion above - lovingly invoke Ephesians 5:22-24.  :)
Whooo, boy. All I can picture is my wife lovingly burning all of my shit on the front lawn, in a fiery and pointed lesson on religion and modernity should I ever claim to tell her what to do.

That's the beauty of dealing with a person who is following rules written 2000 years ago.  Either accept that it's all bullshit (and thus there's no need to tithe), or be trapped by the bullshit and shut up and obey as the good book tells you.  Either way . . . problem solved.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Spouse wants to tithe
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2019, 12:27:07 AM »
I’m a Christian husband and I second the suggestion above - lovingly invoke Ephesians 5:22-24.  :)
Whooo, boy. All I can picture is my wife lovingly burning all of my shit on the front lawn, in a fiery and pointed lesson on religion and modernity should I ever claim to tell her what to do.

That's the beauty of dealing with a person who is following rules written 2000 years ago.  Either accept that it's all bullshit (and thus there's no need to tithe), or be trapped by the bullshit and shut up and obey as the good book tells you.  Either way . . . problem solved.

Careful now... the shut up and obey from her comes with vastly more expectations on the ability to provide every single solitary thing from you.