Author Topic: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?  (Read 6378 times)

ChpBstrd

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Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« on: March 16, 2021, 10:45:29 AM »
I live in a climate where the temperature outside can be comfortable, but the all-day humidity outside can be 60-90%. This makes it hard to keep humidity out of the house, because the thermostat does not run the heat or the AC, and if it did so the house would become uncomfortable one way or the other. My cheap hygrometer is picking up readings from 65-80% indoors, particularly near the floors and on the north side of the house, and issues are occurring. Most of the common causes like crawl space vapor barrier, wall/floor cracks, and leaky plumbing/windows/roofing have been eliminated, and I'm improving gutters and brick cracks. However, I realize I'm basically fighting against the tendency for humidity to equalize indoors/outdoors unless it is mechanically removed or the house is kept super-hot. 

One solution is to buy a whole-house dehumidifier and install it on my HVAC system. Cost: $2500ish plus higher electric bills for life. 

There are also floor-standing dehumidifiers with buckets that must be emptied manually. Cost: $400-600, plus higher electric bills for life.

I was wondering if anyone has thought to use their fridge as a dehumidifier? When the inside coils are defrosted, the condensation runs down a hose to a tray at the bottom of the fridge. From there, the same fan which cools the outside coils helps to evaporate the water from the tray into the room air. What if I attached a hose to this tray or to the hose/pipe that drains into the tray, and then route that water outside the house via a pipe installed in the kitchen floor that leads outdoors (sealed up nicely with the usual P-trap and pest control precautions). This would be similar to the condensation drain on the HVAC unit.

In theory, I could steadily move water from the interior of the house to the exterior, and not use any additional energy or buy any equipment to do so. Thoughts?

yachi

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2021, 11:30:44 AM »
You'll still be using your fridge as a fridge, and just rerouting the condensation so that it isn't added to the room air?  That would help.  If you're talking about repurposing your fridge by leaving the door open to collect moisture, you're better off with the dehumidifier.

Most of those floor-standing dehumidifiers have a drain hose connection, so you could locate them somewhere above a drain or sump pump and never have to empty the bucket.  Some even have built in pumps so you can situate them below a drain.  We run one in the basement.  It's on a table, and drains into a sump for the HVAC using a section of lawn hose.  We're in the Northeast United States.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2021, 01:53:45 PM »
Yes that's correct. The fridge would serve a dual purpose. Unfortunately the doors open and close enough this is a real possibility.

I suppose the relevant question is how many pints per 24h could I remove from the air this way. Looking at portable dehumidifiers, it seems I'd need at least 50 to make a difference across the whole house. If the fridge is pumping out 5 or something, it's not worth the effort. Maybe the next step is to see if I could measure how much condensation is being produced.

Papa bear

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2021, 02:03:01 PM »
Do you use AC in the house? Or need to condition it during warm months? If your AC is sized correctly, it should dehumidify your home. If you have one and you run the AC but leave the fan “on” you are just putting the water back into the house when the warm air blows over the coils. If your condenser is too big, your AC won’t run long enough to dehumidify.

Do you have an electric H2O tank? That can be switched to a heat pump unit, and that will take out moisture. 

If you don’t have central air, but want to condition your home, even window AC units will pull out moisture.  A minisplit will do the same, but much more efficiently, and the condensing line needs to be run to the exterior or a drain. 

I’ve never heard of using the condenser from the fridge and routing the moisture from the pan.  Interesting idea. 

Is your outdoor relative humidity super high? Or are you adding more in your house through cooking, hang drying clothes, too many plants, growing things, having a pool, boiling a lot of water, taking long hot showers without removing the moisture with a bath fan, etc. 


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ChpBstrd

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2021, 02:34:04 PM »
Do you use AC in the house? Or need to condition it during warm months? If your AC is sized correctly, it should dehumidify your home. If you have one and you run the AC but leave the fan “on” you are just putting the water back into the house when the warm air blows over the coils. If your condenser is too big, your AC won’t run long enough to dehumidify.

Do you have an electric H2O tank? That can be switched to a heat pump unit, and that will take out moisture. 

If you don’t have central air, but want to condition your home, even window AC units will pull out moisture.  A minisplit will do the same, but much more efficiently, and the condensing line needs to be run to the exterior or a drain. 

I’ve never heard of using the condenser from the fridge and routing the moisture from the pan.  Interesting idea. 

Is your outdoor relative humidity super high? Or are you adding more in your house through cooking, hang drying clothes, too many plants, growing things, having a pool, boiling a lot of water, taking long hot showers without removing the moisture with a bath fan, etc. 


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Our outdoor humidity routinely gets above 80% even when it is 32F outside. So there's about 8 months out of the year that the humidity outside is high enough to cause mold indoors but it is too cold to run the central AC. There are no indoor-vented dryers, bedroom hot tubs, jungle plants, no paper-making hobby, or anything that seems unusual. It's mostly about trying to keep humidity 50% indoors when it is 90% outdoors.

yachi

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2021, 03:31:46 PM »
Yes that's correct. The fridge would serve a dual purpose. Unfortunately the doors open and close enough this is a real possibility.

I suppose the relevant question is how many pints per 24h could I remove from the air this way. Looking at portable dehumidifiers, it seems I'd need at least 50 to make a difference across the whole house. If the fridge is pumping out 5 or something, it's not worth the effort. Maybe the next step is to see if I could measure how much condensation is being produced.

A portable dehumidifier will have a fan in it to draw house air across the cold coils for as long as it's running.  On the other hand, your fridge spends most of its time recycling the same air from inside the fridge, and only gets fresh house air when the door is opened.  I think you're probably right with your number of 5 pints per hour vs 50.  I just don't think you can passively get that much air inside your fridge to dehumidify the room.

If the fridge is 20 Cubic feet, and is opened for a reasonable amount of time, I'd assume it exchanges no more than 20 cubic feet of air with your room every time it's opened.  If this happens every half hour until you go to bed, it'll exchange 320 cubic feet of air with the room in a day.  In this operation, maybe it could be suitable for dehumidifying a 40 square foot room.

Papa bear

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2021, 06:20:23 PM »
Sounds like you’re going to have to just go with a stand-alone dehumidifier.  Run a hose from it out to a drain so you don’t have to keep emptying. 

Or start collecting all those silicone desiccant packets from everyone you know and leave them all over your house!


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yachi

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2021, 07:15:41 AM »
Our outdoor humidity routinely gets above 80% even when it is 32F outside. So there's about 8 months out of the year that the humidity outside is high enough to cause mold indoors but it is too cold to run the central AC. There are no indoor-vented dryers, bedroom hot tubs, jungle plants, no paper-making hobby, or anything that seems unusual. It's mostly about trying to keep humidity 50% indoors when it is 90% outdoors.

The amount of moisture air can hold increases with temperature.  Outside air at 32F, holding 3.78 g of water/kg air has 90% humidity (because it can only hold 4.2 g/kg at this temperature).  Inside air at 75F holding the same 3.78 g/kg has 20% humidity (because it can hold 18.63 g/kg at this temperature).
take a look at this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm

What this means is your moisture is not coming from outside in the wintertime, but building up inside while not being allowed to escape.  You'll actually be better off in this situation if you increase the amount of outside air getting into your house.

Is this new construction?  Vapor barriers, door seals, caulking and new windows have all combined to reduce leakage of air from inside homes to outside homes.  This is great for energy efficiency, but if your house can't "breathe" to the outside air, it can't lose moisture to the outside.

Other than the large moisture loads you said you don't have, where is moisture coming from?  Mostly the occupants.  Attached is a table of moisture generation for different size houses.  The chart assumes two people for the first bedroom, and an additional person for each additional room. 

Here is a more in-depth discussion: https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2001/tenwo01c.pdf

So....you want to crack a window.

If you go back to the calculator, you'll see potential problems during shoulder seasons - spring/fall.  For example, if it's 59F outside with 90% relative humidity, bring it inside and heat it up to 75F, you'll have 51.7% humidity.

Watchmaker

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2021, 08:26:24 AM »
One solution is to buy a whole-house dehumidifier and install it on my HVAC system. Cost: $2500ish plus higher electric bills for life. 

There are also floor-standing dehumidifiers with buckets that must be emptied manually. Cost: $400-600, plus higher electric bills for life.

I was wondering if anyone has thought to use their fridge as a dehumidifier? When the inside coils are defrosted, the condensation runs down a hose to a tray at the bottom of the fridge. From there, the same fan which cools the outside coils helps to evaporate the water from the tray into the room air. What if I attached a hose to this tray or to the hose/pipe that drains into the tray, and then route that water outside the house via a pipe installed in the kitchen floor that leads outdoors (sealed up nicely with the usual P-trap and pest control precautions). This would be similar to the condensation drain on the HVAC unit.

I don't think the refrigerator would do enough to be noticeable. But I also don't think a floor-standing dehumidifier should cost more than about $200.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2021, 10:11:57 AM »
I've had pretty annoying basement humidity issues during the shoulders seasons.  I have an interior french drain system for waterproofing that's basically open to letting humidity in.  Not a huge issue when the A/C is running in the summer or in the winter when it is really dry here.  During the spring and fall however my basement would spike in humidity and smell very damp.   

I have two large open rooms in my basement. I bought two 50 pint dehumidifiers.  Drain one into a floor drain and one into the french drain system and now my humidity never goes above 45% (it used to get up to 70%).  FYI- they say they are rated for 3,000 sqft but I'd imagine that would only work in a 3,000 sqft space with no walls.  Sucks to have to pay for extra electricity but wayyyy better than dealing with mold remediation.

I did have a quote for an all in one basement dehumidifer/hepa purifier and the quote was nearly $3k.  I accomplished the same thing for under $500 (two dehumidifiers and one larger Honeywell hepa filter).  Zero problems since.  The one big drawback to room dehumidifiers is they are pretty loud.  I'd probably go with the whole house option if I were you.  Air quality isn't something to play around with.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2021, 11:17:53 AM »
The amount of moisture air can hold increases with temperature.  Outside air at 32F, holding 3.78 g of water/kg air has 90% humidity (because it can only hold 4.2 g/kg at this temperature).  Inside air at 75F holding the same 3.78 g/kg has 20% humidity (because it can hold 18.63 g/kg at this temperature).
take a look at this calculator: https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm

What this means is your moisture is not coming from outside in the wintertime, but building up inside while not being allowed to escape.  You'll actually be better off in this situation if you increase the amount of outside air getting into your house.

Is this new construction?  Vapor barriers, door seals, caulking and new windows have all combined to reduce leakage of air from inside homes to outside homes.  This is great for energy efficiency, but if your house can't "breathe" to the outside air, it can't lose moisture to the outside.

Other than the large moisture loads you said you don't have, where is moisture coming from?  Mostly the occupants.  Attached is a table of moisture generation for different size houses.  The chart assumes two people for the first bedroom, and an additional person for each additional room. 

Here is a more in-depth discussion: https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2001/tenwo01c.pdf

So....you want to crack a window.

If you go back to the calculator, you'll see potential problems during shoulder seasons - spring/fall.  For example, if it's 59F outside with 90% relative humidity, bring it inside and heat it up to 75F, you'll have 51.7% humidity.

You raise some interesting points. If I maintained the house at a higher temperature in spring/fall/winter, it could reduce my relative humidity. E.g. on a 65F spring day like today with 90% relative humidity outside, I would turn on the heat to raise the temperature from 68F to 72F, reducing relative humidity from 77% to 60% per the calculator. I could NOT use my thermostat's scheduling function and would instead keep the house warm full-time.

At some point above that level, I'd run the AC to cool and dehumidify. So there would rarely be a point in time when either the heat or the AC is not running, and maybe both in the same day. However, if incurring that cost means not buying a dehumidifier, it might be cheaper in the long run.

It's not a recent construction, and in fact we've been finding and patching huge air leaks for years. I wonder if the complete lack of wall insulation, combined with not running the HVAC very much, creates cold spots near the walls on the floor where moisture can condense. That is where most issues have occurred.

I don't think the refrigerator would do enough to be noticeable. But I also don't think a floor-standing dehumidifier should cost more than about $200.

So far $229 is the lowest price found for a 50 pint model like I would need. With tax that would be over 250.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigidaire-High-Humidity-50-Pint-Capacity-Dehumidifier-FFAD5033W1/312546305?MERCH=REC-_-pipinstock-_-310365942-_-312546305-_-N#product-overview

In conjunction with the calculations above, I wonder if it would be more economical to run the 545-watt dehumidifier or the whole-house 13-SEER heat pump to keep the house maybe 4 degrees warmer (72 instead of 68) when it's not summer. The rule of thumb is costs increase 3% for every one degree of change. So for a 4 degree change as in the example, the heating portion of my electric bill might go up 12%. That might amount to $5 or $10 a month on average, which is probably less than the dehumidifier.

The flip occurs when it starts getting hot, and we have 95+F days with 80-90% humidity. The calculator says my indoor humidity would be 377% at 72 degrees, not including the effects of the AC removing water from the air of course :) 

As we can see, there's a gap between the weather where I could run heat to raise the water carrying capacity of the air, and weather where I could run AC to remove water from the air. E.g. on a day when it's 72 outside and 75% humidity, neither the heat nor the AC is going to drop my indoor humidity below potentially dangerous levels. I could narrow that gap by using the heat below 72 and the AC above 72, but I don't know if I'll ever eliminate it because the heat and AC would cut off after a short time. Perhaps this gap is where the dehumidifier would be necessary?

I have two large open rooms in my basement. I bought two 50 pint dehumidifiers.  Drain one into a floor drain and one into the french drain system and now my humidity never goes above 45% (it used to get up to 70%).  FYI- they say they are rated for 3,000 sqft but I'd imagine that would only work in a 3,000 sqft space with no walls.  Sucks to have to pay for extra electricity but wayyyy better than dealing with mold remediation.

@GoCubsGo how much higher is your electric bill since you installed the dehumidifiers? Sounds like you're doing twice or three times the capacity I'd need, since I'm not in a basement and I'm looking at doing only one 50 pint unit.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2021, 12:31:11 PM »
Based on $.12 cents for electricity cost that 50pt will cost about 6 cents an hour to run.  It obviously doesn't run all the time but if I figure it runs 8 hours a day it'd be about $15 a month (and it probably runs 5 months a year).  There really isn't any other option than to mechanically remove the water if you want a healthy air quality environment.  Running my HVAC just to remove humidity doesn't seem to be much better of an answer.  The system I got quoted was basically just a large commercial dehumidifier with an air cleaner attached. 

I guess you have to price the difference between just using individual dehumidifier(s) versus the huge upfront cost of a whole house system. I imagine the whole house system uses a lot of electricity as well (it's still mechanically removing the humidity).  If it uses significantly less you could do a payback analysis versus using a floor standing one.  I can't imagine you'd make back that initial cost delta.

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2021, 12:33:42 PM »
So far $229 is the lowest price found for a 50 pint model like I would need. With tax that would be over 250.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigidaire-High-Humidity-50-Pint-Capacity-Dehumidifier-FFAD5033W1/312546305?MERCH=REC-_-pipinstock-_-310365942-_-312546305-_-N#product-overview

This is the model I bought 3 years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/Keystone-Dehumidifier-Electronic-Controls-KSTAD504D/dp/B0854LBMF3/

I haven't tracked the electrical costs of running it, but even when the RH is at it's highest the unit runs less than half of the time. I would agree with the estimates of about $15 a month.

theoverlook

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2021, 07:43:23 AM »
The whole house dehumidifier also has the larger fan running (for the hvac system) and the pumping losses associated with the ductwork.

We have two large portable dehumidifiers - one in each end of our basement - that have built in humidistats and turn on and off based on the humidity. They're quiet, and have been reliable for the six years we've owner them. The only problem I've had is the outlet hose plugged up with mold - my bad for not having the hose at enough of an angle. I got anti-mold pills that I put in the coils of the humidifier, they help keep mold down, and replaced the output hose. They both drain to sump pumps. I don't know about the electricity cost as we bought them and started using them before moving in. (The house had a moisture problem!)

I do think your fridge idea is neat. It might not be much but it's interesting to me to use things that we will already be paying to run to achieve another goal. I have no idea how many pints per hour it would remove.

frugalnacho

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2021, 01:38:46 PM »
Do you use AC in the house? Or need to condition it during warm months? If your AC is sized correctly, it should dehumidify your home. If you have one and you run the AC but leave the fan “on” you are just putting the water back into the house when the warm air blows over the coils. If your condenser is too big, your AC won’t run long enough to dehumidify.

Do you have an electric H2O tank? That can be switched to a heat pump unit, and that will take out moisture. 

If you don’t have central air, but want to condition your home, even window AC units will pull out moisture.  A minisplit will do the same, but much more efficiently, and the condensing line needs to be run to the exterior or a drain. 

I’ve never heard of using the condenser from the fridge and routing the moisture from the pan.  Interesting idea. 

Is your outdoor relative humidity super high? Or are you adding more in your house through cooking, hang drying clothes, too many plants, growing things, having a pool, boiling a lot of water, taking long hot showers without removing the moisture with a bath fan, etc. 


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Our outdoor humidity routinely gets above 80% even when it is 32F outside. So there's about 8 months out of the year that the humidity outside is high enough to cause mold indoors but it is too cold to run the central AC. There are no indoor-vented dryers, bedroom hot tubs, jungle plants, no paper-making hobby, or anything that seems unusual. It's mostly about trying to keep humidity 50% indoors when it is 90% outdoors.

When you heat that up to room temperature it gets dry as hell.  Your house should be dry as shit when the outside temperature falls below freezing.  We have to use humidifiers and constantly lotion our hands in the winter in michigan.  You may have something inside the house contributing moisture, or you may not be getting enough air exchange.

Villanelle

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2021, 01:45:17 PM »
Why would you need a 50p capacity?  We use a portable humidifier with hose hooked up and run to a drain, so we never have to empty it.  And when you do that, there is no need to buy a larger model because capacity is meaningless.  We have two of these (one for basement, one for main floor) and they work all summer and most of the fall, for several years, with no issues.  One of them even survived a basement flood in which it was submerged in about 18 inches of water.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JNZFRC8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

frugalnacho

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2021, 02:01:38 PM »
The capacity is the capacity to remove moisture, not the waste storage capacity.  You may need a larger model if you have a larger area or an especially humid area.  Just imagine running your 22p model inside a costco sized warehouse.  Even if you drain it directly to a drain that thing will run 24/7 without actually lowering the humidity, because it just can't remove moisture fast enough for that sized space. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2021, 02:38:28 PM »
Why would you need a 50p capacity?  We use a portable humidifier with hose hooked up and run to a drain, so we never have to empty it.  And when you do that, there is no need to buy a larger model because capacity is meaningless.  We have two of these (one for basement, one for main floor) and they work all summer and most of the fall, for several years, with no issues.  One of them even survived a basement flood in which it was submerged in about 18 inches of water.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JNZFRC8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm finding all sorts of conflicting advice on dehumidifier sizing. In my case, it's a 1300sf house with lots of windows and a gas stove. According to this advice, I need a 30-pint, plus 10 for a humid climate, plus 5 for multiple people, plus 5 for lots of windows and doors, so about 50.

https://www.homedepot.com/c/ab/how-to-choose-the-right-size-dehumidifier/9ba683603be9fa5395fab901930a2e1a

To add confusion, the standards just changed, as reflected in this chart:



I am impressed by the survival of your submerged dehumidifier. How loud is that model?

GuitarStv

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2021, 02:50:37 PM »
Do you use AC in the house? Or need to condition it during warm months? If your AC is sized correctly, it should dehumidify your home. If you have one and you run the AC but leave the fan “on” you are just putting the water back into the house when the warm air blows over the coils. If your condenser is too big, your AC won’t run long enough to dehumidify.

Do you have an electric H2O tank? That can be switched to a heat pump unit, and that will take out moisture. 

If you don’t have central air, but want to condition your home, even window AC units will pull out moisture.  A minisplit will do the same, but much more efficiently, and the condensing line needs to be run to the exterior or a drain. 

I’ve never heard of using the condenser from the fridge and routing the moisture from the pan.  Interesting idea. 

Is your outdoor relative humidity super high? Or are you adding more in your house through cooking, hang drying clothes, too many plants, growing things, having a pool, boiling a lot of water, taking long hot showers without removing the moisture with a bath fan, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Our outdoor humidity routinely gets above 80% even when it is 32F outside. So there's about 8 months out of the year that the humidity outside is high enough to cause mold indoors but it is too cold to run the central AC. There are no indoor-vented dryers, bedroom hot tubs, jungle plants, no paper-making hobby, or anything that seems unusual. It's mostly about trying to keep humidity 50% indoors when it is 90% outdoors.

When you heat that up to room temperature it gets dry as hell.  Your house should be dry as shit when the outside temperature falls below freezing.  We have to use humidifiers and constantly lotion our hands in the winter in michigan.  You may have something inside the house contributing moisture, or you may not be getting enough air exchange.

I agree.  The humidity drop when heating cold air through your typical forced air HVAC system is significant.  Outdoor humidity at cold temperatures doesn't translate into interior humidity.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Refrigerator as a dehumidifier?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2021, 09:00:18 PM »
Do you use AC in the house? Or need to condition it during warm months? If your AC is sized correctly, it should dehumidify your home. If you have one and you run the AC but leave the fan “on” you are just putting the water back into the house when the warm air blows over the coils. If your condenser is too big, your AC won’t run long enough to dehumidify.

Do you have an electric H2O tank? That can be switched to a heat pump unit, and that will take out moisture. 

If you don’t have central air, but want to condition your home, even window AC units will pull out moisture.  A minisplit will do the same, but much more efficiently, and the condensing line needs to be run to the exterior or a drain. 

I’ve never heard of using the condenser from the fridge and routing the moisture from the pan.  Interesting idea. 

Is your outdoor relative humidity super high? Or are you adding more in your house through cooking, hang drying clothes, too many plants, growing things, having a pool, boiling a lot of water, taking long hot showers without removing the moisture with a bath fan, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Our outdoor humidity routinely gets above 80% even when it is 32F outside. So there's about 8 months out of the year that the humidity outside is high enough to cause mold indoors but it is too cold to run the central AC. There are no indoor-vented dryers, bedroom hot tubs, jungle plants, no paper-making hobby, or anything that seems unusual. It's mostly about trying to keep humidity 50% indoors when it is 90% outdoors.

When you heat that up to room temperature it gets dry as hell.  Your house should be dry as shit when the outside temperature falls below freezing.  We have to use humidifiers and constantly lotion our hands in the winter in michigan.  You may have something inside the house contributing moisture, or you may not be getting enough air exchange.

I agree.  The humidity drop when heating cold air through your typical forced air HVAC system is significant.  Outdoor humidity at cold temperatures doesn't translate into interior humidity.

Yea, I'm really thinking the issue is on days when the outdoor temperature is similar to the indoor temperature, and outdoors it is 70%-95% humidity. Neither heat nor AC run very often in those conditions, and those conditions can go on for months at a time. It's inevitable the humidity will equalize between indoors and outdoors when the HVAC isn't running.

On a warm springtime day we sometimes get a thunderstorm and it just gets swampy outside, but the temperature is pleasant. I think that's when the issues occur, so maybe I need a dehumidifier to cover those times.