Soundproofing

[havregryn]

Hey brilliant Mustachians, I'd like to ask you for some advice about soundproofing.

The front side of our apartment, where the bedrooms are, is facing a road. Now, my husband thinks I am being a bit ridiculous about this as we are not exactly right on the road and we are not living in a particularly urban area. It's just a regular road with no multiple lanes or anything but it is relatively well used, especially in the rush hour, as it connects our fancy village with the "city" of Luxembourg. There is about 20 metres between us and the road with some trees and bushes planted there but you can still hear the traffic even with the windows closed.
The soundmeter on the phone can't pick it up so I also sometimes feel I am being a little bit overly sensitive but the fact is my annoyance with this is growing and I want to soundproof the bedrooms. Or at least the one that's going to be used for kids to begin with (that one is also more affected as it's the outer wall of the building and has a lot larger window). Our bedroom is not that much of an issue as there is really no traffic by the time we go to sleep. Right now that room is being used as a guest room for our stream of family and friend babysitters and no one has complained so again, maybe I have entirely unrealistic expectations on how silent it can be if you're living anywhere near a road with traffic but I don't know...I feel I need to do something.

I am just not sure what is best to do. I don't really have a set budget as we are in a super HCOL meaning that even the most expensive operation will still cost nothing in relation to how much housing here costs in general.
But I am still slightly skeptical about spending a lot of money and then not being happy with the result. One guy who came to see it to discuss options (and never got back to me later because well, Luxembourg) sort of implied that since I appear to be a little precious about this no solution might really work for me.

I don't know, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
TIA.

[wenchsenior]

Posting to follow because I am interested in how to sound proof windows most effectively (maybe with removable panels or something).  The number one reason I hate living around other people is because other people have dogs, and a good percentage of those dogs bark, and barking is the most rage-inducing noise I've ever consistently encountered.  Then there are all the other annoying noises people make apart from their barking dogs.  In fantasy world, I can afford to live with a several mile protective radius that includes no neighbors, or I could live in the same building with other people as long as the building was sound proof.   Neither of those seems likely, so... I was thinking perhaps musicians might have good ideas for removable sound panels that could be cut to fit window, etc.???

[LifeHappens]

I have some experience with this! I live very near a noisy restaurant and have had to deal with an increase in noise due to a change in ownership. These are solutions that have worked somewhat for me (the restaurant owners are still annoying, but I no longer fantasize about murdering them).

1) We replaced one sliding door with solid wall. We never used the door and it faces our neighbor's house, so the added privacy is great.
2) If you have single pane windows or sliding doors, replace them. $$$ but makes a big difference. If your door faces that street, consider replacing it if it is made from wood. Insulated steel doors are much better for sound.
3) Caulk or otherwise seal around your windows and doors. Not expensive and also good for lowering energy bills.
4) For bedrooms, get sound reducing curtains.
5) Drown out the worst of the sound with other sound. For sleeping, maybe a white noise machine. For daytime, music or a little water fountain would help.
6) If you get really desperate, adding another layer of plaster or drywall can help. I have not done this, but my research suggests in extreme cases it is necessary.

Don't bother with things like more rugs in the house. That makes it less noisy when you walk around, but does nothing to absorb sounds from outside.

Start with 3 & 5 and think about 4 if needed. Hopefully that will solve your problems before you get into more expensive solutions.

[plog]

sort of implied that since I appear to be a little precious about this no solution might really work for me

That's what I was getting as I read your post.  Actually, to play amateur internet psychologist--is this the real issue you are having?  I mean, it seems you've gone out of your way to make this a problem.   

You're not losing sleep over this, no one else is complaining--even with your prodding, you can't get it to register on a sound app and despite all that you still called an expert and he seemed to think the issue wasn't something he could solve to your satisfaction.  So, are you that sensitive to sound or is there another issue that you have with your situation that you don't like but can't seem to discuss?

[Ocinfo]

Beyond the fairly simple fixes such as sound reducing curtains (actually work pretty well), I would suggest keeping your windows open for a while. You'll get use to it being loud and when you finally shut them, it'll seem really quiet. I'm not a huge believer in hedonistic adaptation like MMM regarding temperatures (have tried, still don't like hot and humid) but I think it works for basic senses such as sound.


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[havregryn]

In our case it is a sad irony that we have to live here as opposed to in a middle of nowhere because we don't have (and don't want) a car. It would probably be far cheaper to live in a middle of nowhere but then we would have no way of getting to work and to a store.

I was actually thinking of adding another layer to the wall, possibly putting some soundproofing foam in between. That is why my husband thinks I am crazy. He thinks my annoyance is way too disproportionate to the severity of the issue. It may be true, when I google this and read about experiences it's fairly obvious people deal with something a lot more serious (you can only ever hear something if everything is otherwise silent, it's not that outside noise really interferes with anything on the inside)so they are happy once they reach the level we have. We have double glazing on the windows and they seem quite good. But we can still hear it when a car drives by when it's otherwise quiet and at the time I am putting kids to sleep there is still enough of them for this to qualify as annoying.

Plog, I appreciate your straightforwardness (and my husband will especially appreciate it if he reads this lol as he is trying to be nice about it but I can see he also thinks I am making this into an issue because I simply have to be anxious about something about living situation and remarkably enough there is nothing else to go on). But the sound is still there, lol, I wish I could make it go away. I guess that is why I am asking for experiences, to hear if it is even realistic to somehow soundproof a room so that next to no outside noise can get in.  Whether that is a rational expectation or not.

I had bought some sort of curtains that claimed to be sound reducing on Amazon a while back but they are quite light and thin and I am not convinced. I found some guys in Germany selling something they call a soundproofing curtain but it would cost cca 800€ to get the size I need + the mechanism to mount it on since it weighs 10kg. When I mentioned that to husband he had the inevitable "Are you serious!?" face and since he'd have to install it I chickened out :D I don't know if there is something in the middle, maybe velvet or felt curtains?

[LifeHappens]

If the curtains aren't working well enough for you, you could make some soundproofing window plugs.

However...

But we can still hear it when a car drives by when it's otherwise quiet and at the time I am putting kids to sleep there is still enough of them for this to qualify as annoying.

This leads me to believe you are a very noise sensitive person. You would have to build a recording studio soundbooth to completely block out even the slightest hint of road noise.

[Kl285528]

Consult with someone who builds recording studios for a living. Call some nearby recording studio and ask for a referral. I'm getting ready to build a home studio as part of a home renovation, but have not yet done a deep dive into research yet, but this will be part of my plan.

[starguru]

I'm in a similar situation.  The advice I received was

1.  Might have to pay a sound consultant engineer to do a survey to see how exactly sound is getting in
2.  Assuming the windows are the problem, if you have decent double pane windows the best thing to do is install another storm window over your existing windows.  This can reduce incoming noise by about 20db, which if I understand correctly is a 75% reduction.  When installing the storm windows, best to have a gap of at least a few inches between your existing windows and the storm windows.
3.  Sometimes there are gaps around the window framing where noise can get in. 
4.  Sometimes noise can get in thru your wall sockets.
5.  Poor insulation in the walls can be a problem. 
6.  In extreme cases you can build another wall over your existing wall (so the room gets smaller by 6-10 inches). 

I never went thru any of these steps.  I'm moving next year and sleeping with ear plugs until then.

[Holyoak]

I understand, and empathize with your situation havregryn!  Maybe to give perspective, and a feeling that it could be worse, I would KILL to only have external noise in my current situation...  I do have some, but internal noise drives you to the point of insanity rage, never having any peace.

My nightmare currently, is I live in a 6-plex, sharing a long wall with a neighbor, an end wall with another, and all three garages on the opposite end wall; think three sides of a rectangle.  One neighbor has CRAZY OCD, and will loudly slam her $50,000 sedan doors as if they are barn doors, to make sure they are closed many, many times in a row.  On top of this, she will lock/unlock this same vehicle upwards of 15-20 times, with the annoying horn toot for each time.  On top, top of this, she will close the garage door, re-open it 4 or five times, still locking/check-locking the damn doors!!!  Great too, she will remote start the car in the winter, and I get to 'enjoy' the rumble of it idling for 30 minutes.  Mind you, all of this is less than 2 meters from where I sit in my living room!

The other neighbor only knows how to loudly slam doors/cupboards/cabinets/drawers/washer lid...  And she does this every half hour from 6:30am, till 9pm, and at times 2-3am.  You can literally set your watch by it, and you wait in dread until the next round.  I may be a bit noise sensitive, but I'm 100% sure when the cupboard doors bounce 4 times till still, every time along the wall, you are being an inconsiderate asshole.  Makes it so I hate to even be in my own kitchen, or sit in my living room!  I spoke to both politely about the issue - it continues still, with Dr. OCD I think doing it louder, being super passive-aggressive.  Even with loud white noise, and ear plugs, you can't rid the place of loud bangs/thuds/slams, and I'm freaking over it, especially at the high rent price I pay.  I try to set the example, and it must be nice for them to live next to a nearly silent ghost.  God I can't wait to get out of here.

Not to minimize your situation at all, but having outside noise is one thing, having no peace at all INSIDE your home is a hell, I wish on no one.  I do hope you get your situation sorted-out, and I understand just how detrimental noise is the enjoyment of ones life.  Good luck!

[wenchsenior]

I understand, and empathize with your situation havregryn!  Maybe to give perspective, and a feeling that it could be worse, I would KILL to only have external noise in my current situation...  I do have some, but internal noise drives you to the point of insanity rage, never having any peace.

My nightmare currently, is I live in a 6-plex, sharing a long wall with a neighbor, an end wall with another, and all three garages on the opposite end wall; think three sides of a rectangle.  One neighbor has CRAZY OCD, and will loudly slam her $50,000 sedan doors as if they are barn doors, to make sure they are closed many, many times in a row.  On top of this, she will lock/unlock this same vehicle upwards of 15-20 times, with the annoying horn toot for each time.  On top, top of this, she will close the garage door, re-open it 4 or five times, still locking/check-locking the damn doors!!!  Great too, she will remote start the car in the winter, and I get to 'enjoy' the rumble of it idling for 30 minutes.  Mind you, all of this is less than 2 meters from where I sit in my living room!

The other neighbor only knows how to loudly slam doors/cupboards/cabinets/drawers/washer lid...  And she does this every half hour from 6:30am, till 9pm, and at times 2-3am.  You can literally set your watch by it, and you wait in dread until the next round.  I may be a bit noise sensitive, but I'm 100% sure when the cupboard doors bounce 4 times till still, every time along the wall, you are being an inconsiderate asshole.  Makes it so I hate to even be in my own kitchen, or sit in my living room!  I spoke to both politely about the issue - it continues still, with Dr. OCD I think doing it louder, being super passive-aggressive.  Even with loud white noise, and ear plugs, you can't rid the place of loud bangs/thuds/slams, and I'm freaking over it, especially at the high rent price I pay.  I try to set the example, and it must be nice for them to live next to a nearly silent ghost.  God I can't wait to get out of here.

Not to minimize your situation at all, but having outside noise is one thing, having no peace at all INSIDE your home is a hell, I wish on no one.  I do hope you get your situation sorted-out, and I understand just how detrimental noise is the enjoyment of ones life.  Good luck!

I can feel homicidal rage rising just reading about your situation.  I swear, if I ever end up in jail for murder, it will be due to some sort of neighbor-originating noise.   

[havregryn]

Yes, it seems to be a rare blessing that everyone around us seems to be unbeliveably quiet, I don't think I ever heard neighbors. Or maybe I am just so obsessed with the traffic noise that I don't even notice.
I think for me there is this added frustration of wondering how crazy I am. I mean, there is definitely a road there and so is the sound but it does seem to be somewhere on the lower end of how horrible it can be (when I take the bus to work the bus follows this road all into the city but once we cross into what is actually the city of Luxembourg all the houses are right there next to the road and they are all adjacent, that must be a special kind of hell...we at least have some distance and greenery and we are not attached to the buildings next to us so it doesn't feel as suffocating). So far three adults have slept in that little room and while they acknowledged hearing traffic they never felt it was disturbing, they could even sleep with open windows (I don't dare even try, I bought a fan for the summer now).
I think one more reason why a lot of people are not taking me seriously is the fact Luxembourg is a really small place with a really busy cargo airport. A huge area is really affected by this (I can hear them to and they annoy me so I don't even dare to imagine what it must be like in the areas under the landing path) and people seem to be mostly meh about it.
It's like for some reason no one seems to mind all this noise, even though we all live in what looks like the country side.
When I was googling my misery I found that Luxembourg was the country in the EU that had the most people affected by road noise. Apparently over 30% of population is exposed to road noise levels that are considered bad. It's funny because when we moved here I commented how it seems that everything is built around roads whereas in Sweden where we lived before it was obvious that city was planned so that you have residential areas clearly separate from road traffic.

Anyway, as a first step I decided to buy some foam and try to make some sort of a plug like someone shared. I found some German store selling some stuff so we'll see. My second step is going to be trying to make something like this and putting felt into it http://www.ikea.com/us/en/ideas/201542_idbe01a/

Then in some of my more crazy ideas, given that I seem to be mostly concerned about putting kids to sleep early (right now my 3.5 year old goes to sleep late since he can sleep in but he starts school in the fall), I was thinking of customizing their bunk bed into something like this

http://hative.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ikea-hacks-for-kids-beds/23-ikea-hacks-for-kids-bed.jpg
or
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d6/87/ff/d687ffea5c468738a01b9e04cb004f79--ikea-kids-bunk-beds.jpg

Surely that should, especially with some curtains, make it a bit more cosy and insulated inside of that.

And I guess if I implement all that and I am still not happy I will admit that the only solution is me seeing a shrink or all of us moving somewhere 2 km away from civilisation. Or I will in fact just add another layer of wall and another layer of window on the inside, thus making the room smaller...but that is probably guaranteed to work. Since the sound is not insufferable now, 10 cm more wall and air between the next glass layer has to kill it off.

[KarefulKactus15]

I feel your pain.  Included is a picture of one of my houses, from the 6 lane interstate in the back yard.    I know all about road noise.    I spoke with an acoustical engineering firm and also a drywall contractor that specializes in sound rooms. (The contractor was much more useful than the acoustic firm.)   Also note the MASTER bedroom is on the same side as the interstate.    Now that ive said all that, honestly your best option is a 16$ box fan. 

Here is the problem. You are hearing low frequency noise from the road. This is very hard to stop.   You will spend LOTs of money for every 1/2 reduction in noise.  For example to get a 1/2 reduction in sound here is what was suggested for me.   A new wall 6 inches from the old wall stuffed with R13 insultation (Has the best noise blocking value. The densisty is best for noise blocking), with a quietrock sheetrock on the front side. Also there were some other components that I forgot the name of but they stop the transfer of mechanical energy through solid objects.   In addition to that you will need special custom windows.  To get another 1/2 reduction would require replacing my exterior siding with special sheathing and hardiplank... The cost for this stuff gets insane. 

Again all of this is for only a 1/2 noise reduction, you will not eliminate it . . .   So in all honesty, ive been down this road and the best option for me was the 16$ Box fan to drown out the noise.

I now own a house far away from the interstate noise and after being used to that, even a loud day with people cutting grass is quiet to me ... lol

[Hotstreak]

When we used to throw really loud parties in college we would hang thick quilts over all the windows, and they did a great job at preventing noise complaints.  You could drill some hooks at or near your ceiling and hang quilts from those, if you want to be able to remove them easily for cleaning, opening windows, etc.  We bought gross cheap quilts at a thrift store and sprayed them with Febreeze, but I'm sure you can find a clean used quilt somewhere that would work!  The thicker, heavier quilts worked better.  I think it's the same sound principal as Kroaler's contractors suggestion of adding R13 insulation.  As a plus, some quilts look nice on the wall.

+1 to the suggestion for white noise.  Personally I can't stand having a fan/fountain/noise machine inside my room (too loud!) so I set it on the other side of a wall, preferably between me and the source of the unwanted noise.  Another long term solution would be planting new shrubs and allowing them to grow tall, or putting up a tall fence, or campaigning the local government to re-route the road further away from your home.  Good luck!

[wwweb]

I'm an engineer with a firm that does some acoustics work (typically for scientific applications not residential). Here are my thoughts...

1) Human ears can be quite sensitive. Reducing ambient noise below the threshold of human hearing is a challenging problem. If you are looking for absolute silence, it will cost a lot of money.
2) As mentioned above road noise has lots of low frequency energy. This means you will need very thick acoustic foam. I have seen rooms with walls >1/2 meter thick designed for taking measurements. Even in these rooms, you might still hear some road noise if you focused very hard. You'd also need special ($$$) windows.
3) Even if you do an excellent job with acoustic foam on the walls, getting absolute silence might require a floating floor to eliminate the transmission of vibration through the ground. For example when a big truck goes by you can feel the ground rumble - the vibrations you feel can become audible. In practice you'll often see a false floor suspended over another 1/2 meter of acoustic foam.

Residential isn't something I think about often so I could be wrong here, but what you're looking for seems very difficult to achieve.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I have a serious "sound allergy". I did all the things people wanted me to do -live in noise and get used to it, etc.

Lots of great suggestions above.

I just wanted to add that a lifesaver for me is the Bose noise-cancelling wireless earbuds. They're so light, I don't even notice them resting on my shoulders, they cut out a bunch of ambient sound, and when I feel like it I can add a layer of music, TV, etc. Seriously, they transform me from crazy to sane in one click. Getting that break as needed restores me, and leaves me totally capable of dealing with sound again.

[CrashnBurn]

I'm an engineer with a firm that does some acoustics work (typically for scientific applications not residential). Here are my thoughts...

1) Human ears can be quite sensitive. Reducing ambient noise below the threshold of human hearing is a challenging problem. If you are looking for absolute silence, it will cost a lot of money.
2) As mentioned above road noise has lots of low frequency energy. This means you will need very thick acoustic foam. I have seen rooms with walls >1/2 meter thick designed for taking measurements. Even in these rooms, you might still hear some road noise if you focused very hard. You'd also need special ($$$) windows.
3) Even if you do an excellent job with acoustic foam on the walls, getting absolute silence might require a floating floor to eliminate the transmission of vibration through the ground. For example when a big truck goes by you can feel the ground rumble - the vibrations you feel can become audible. In practice you'll often see a false floor suspended over another 1/2 meter of acoustic foam.

Residential isn't something I think about often so I could be wrong here, but what you're looking for seems very difficult to achieve.

I'm a sound designer, and I'll second the acoustic logistics of this. It just takes so much to dampen the frequencies on the low end of the spectrum. The best "bang for your not insanely expensive buck," is probably going to be Blackout (heavy) curtains with earplugs others have suggested. I lived outside a crazy intersection for two years (accident at least once a week), and the blackout drapes made a significant difference without being incredibly expensive.

If you're amenable to white noise, a fan or white noise generator might also do a world of good. Try-before-you-buy, and get a free white noise app for your phone to see how you feel about it. My fiancée uses rain sounds to get to sleep at night, and i've found i quite enjoy it.

Here's a article i've found to be informative for the DIY route of acoustic panelling, and I've actually built the panels for my recording studio. Good for high frequency reflections, but do nothing for low end.

"Porous absorption (aka velocity-based absorption) works most effectively where a sound wave is at maximum velocity, which in your room, is 1/4 wavelength from the wall.

For example, a 100 Hz wave is 11.3 feet long, so its point of maximum velocity is 2.8 feet off the wall."

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/acoustic-foam-panels/

Good Luck!

[Dollar Slice]

Sound sensitivities are funny... something that terribly bothers one person is completely not noticeable to another. I've also worked with people on the flip side, who don't like it when the office is "too quiet." They just can't stand for there to be no noise in the room! Which seems totally crazy to me. My dad and I both have issues with oversensitivity to sound - and we both have mild-to-moderate anxiety disorders. I think there is a relationship there. I would suggest doing some reading on topics like misophonia or phonophobia... see if anything sounds familiar. (Although you'd be on the mild end of the spectrum, I'm sure.)

It sounds to me like you are making a problem out of nothing, though. You say it's not a problem for you because you go to bed late enough that traffic has died down. And so far no other person besides you has been bothered by it, right? So it isn't a problem for you or anyone else? And you're talking about spending lots of money and going to a lot of effort to fix it? I don't really understand the logic.

You don't necessarily want to preventatively soundproof your kids' room, either - training someone to be able to sleep only in dead silence is not a helpful life skill.

I do feel total sympathy for you, though. I have lived and worked in places where sound sensitivity issues made me extremely upset. It's hard. I sleep in earplugs and sometimes I pop them in at work or on the subway. Not a complete solution, but it's pretty much all I can do.

[havregryn]

I definitely admit there seems to be a correlation between how generally anxious I am and how much this bothers me. We've lived here for 7 months and I've had periods when I barely noticed and periods when it was driving me nuts like right now. This coincides with my husband and older son being on holiday in Sweden so there are definitely a lot of factors that are contributing - first of all, the absense of the 3 year old has removed a lot of our usual family noise making it more quiet overall and more noticeable that there is outside noise. But also, them being so far away is making me anxious which is definitely making this worse.
We can afford to live somewhere where this will not be an issue but there is really not that much to choose from if I want to also tick the boxes that there is a supermarket nearby (unavoidable without a car and with two kids), that I can cycle to work (another mental health must) and that we are not under the landing path (which I imagine can only be ten millions times worse because when an airplane takes a nasty turn I feel like the world is ending) . And even if I found such a place I would not have any guarantees that there won't be other sources of noise.
I mean, one of the reasons we live here and not deeper into the purely residential area of our town is the fact that while that area may be beautiful (and a lot more expensive, not out of our affordability zone but probably out of our comfort zone) only 1000m deeper in, it becomes a commuting and logistical nightmare if you don't have a car (and it's still along a road just a less used one, given how sensitive I obviously am would that even make enough of a difference). Public transport is unreliable and relatively scarce (from here we can walk to the point where several buses converge into the city so there is always something to take but moving into the wrong direction could leave us with buses every 30 min and we cannot handle the school run with that) and the store we are close to now is the only store on this side of a rather spread out town. It is also significantly closer for me to cycle to work and there is a rural path to take. Because of all that and the fact we have friends among our neighbors it really feels like a super stupid idea to move just because I am annoyed by this road and developed all these anxious scenarios about how it is going to be bad for the kids.

My office building faces a monster of a road that makes this one at home look benign and still I can't hear a thing (unless I really put an effort into it) so obviously it's possible to build a structure that can keep the noise out but yeah, it might be undoable retroactively and probably too much of an overkill costwise.

To be honest I feel a bit better just talking about this with this wonderful community (I really love this forum, I wish I had more time for it).

I guess there is also the fact that only one side of our place is affected (in the back you can't hear a thing at night, during the day with the balcony door open you can hear it to some degree but actually, again an indicator of how psychologically related this is, I don't seem to be bothered at all, because I can't see any cars; the back faces a forest) so if I want to go all crazy maybe the easiest way to do it is to just make a sleeping area for the kids on that side (it would be hard to make them a room as it is a large open space with a glass wall but if I won't be able to get over this and none of the portable solutions help enough I can turn the small bedroom into some sort of a media and play room and just put the kids to sleep on that side. It would work for sure, even though it would appear weird to visitors if I placed a large customized bunk bed into what is essentially a living room/dining room. Husband would probably be annoyed but he is probably more likely to agree to that than to building extra walls on the exposed side.

[life_travel]

First I want to say that I do sympathise with your uncomfortableness however I just want to say it and hope it is not too blunt. If you are planning to do it all FOR THE KIDS, don't bother , believe me they don't need it. For youself you'd be better spending your money seeing a psychologist, etc to work on your anxiety issues . I suspect once they are under control , the noise issue won't be as acute .