The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: AK on December 26, 2014, 11:51:37 AM
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Hi Everyone. I found MMM a year ago and have been OCDing about F.I.R.E ever since. My current savings rate is 50% and I'm working on increasing it further. While tackling the spend side of the equation, I thought why not tackle the income side too. Any advice based on my plan to ask for a raise would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Background
Next Week, I have a performance review with my boss and I plan on asking for a raise to $105,000 from $80,000 and discuss why it's warranted based on my contributions. I've never actually asked for a raise in the almost 8 years being a Software Engineer. I had always just received merit raises and bonuses. To prepare for this, I've spent probably 15-20 hours documenting my accomplishments, researching the market rate for similar software positions in my area using sites like Glassdoor and Salary.com, and researching these forums and the internet about how to go about asking for a raise. Negotiating is a skill I'm working on improving and I definitely need more practice.
I've been with my current employer for almost 4 years and am extremely happy being there. Our company now has a product on the market that I had a large hand in getting it to where it is. Because it's so successful, we're growing fast and have increased our workforce by about 40% this year alone because of the increased demand.
My current position is Technical Consultant. Based on that title's responsibilities, I have to gather requirements, design, implement, test, and document software based on customer's needs. I do all of that plus interview job candidates, mentor new employees, architect / design various customizations for other projects I'm not directly on, troubleshoot other people's issues because I'm the GoTo guy on certain technologies and domains, and provide training to partners. Additionally, I put in extra hours to enhance various tools and processes to streamline things which have made notable contributions. Currently, all the new hires, mostly recent grads, also have the title of technical consultant. Based on the what I've described, I think I'm more of a Senior Technical Consultant or Lead.
At my employer, we typically have monthly performance meetings with an annual performance meeting for raises and such near year end. My reviews have all been outstanding and for a few months my boss did not schedule any performance meetings. I actually asked for my performance meeting to be rescheduled to next week because it was scheduled during my vacation this week. In past performance meetings, I've told my boss that I don't want to code forever and this past week he mentioned that beginning next year, I'll be doing mostly architect / design work for projects. While having lunch with some of our new hires a couple months ago, my boss said that I was "brilliant" which made me feel good.
I also have a B.S. in Computer Science and a Master's in Business Administration with a concentration in Accounting and many Finance classes taken. The accounting and finance background has really been helpful.
If it helps, I'm located in western New York. Also, I've been perusing CareerBuilder and Indeed and see Remote positions where I can work from home and potentially earn even more than what I'm asking for. While I could earn more elsewhere while working from home, I'm really happy where I'm at and am afraid of not being happy elsewhere despite the higher income.
Looking For Feedback On
- Should I ask for a promotion as well as a raise?
- Is asking for a $25,000 raise too much? I realize that's above what most receive but I feel like I'm worth that based on my skills, going market rate, and most importantly the contributions I've made to my employer and will continue to make.
- Should I just ask for a raise without giving a number? I'm worried that asking for a specific number will potentially leave money on the table if they say sure without any negotiating as well as them thinking I'm greedy.
- Anything else you feel would be relevant.
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Have you considered getting an offer from another company, offering significantly more than $105k, and then taking that offer to your boss as evidence that you are underpaid and want to be paid market value?
+1, but I wouldn't come to the table brandishing an offer that I wasn't actually willing to take if my current employer said no - logic follows that if you're told no and stay at your current salary or take a much smaller raise than what you've asked for, instead of taking the much better financial offer that you brought to the table to negotiate with, then in the future, they may continue to think they can short you on what you deserve...
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I've considered it. I don't want to do that because it could be interpreted as an ultimatum and if they say fine go elsewhere, I would. I'm not prepared to do that now because I want to remain there while building the stash. Let's call that a last resort that I'm willing to do if necessary.
With that said, I did call a recruiter about a Remote Software position to get the ball rolling in case a new job is in order...
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We have been told that it's easier for a manager to give someone a $20K salary increase on hiring than in the middle of employment, even if someone leaves and comes back to the same company. I think asking for the raise absolutely makes sense--they won't just give it to you without you asking--but I would agree that having another offer that you're willing to take is a must--then the manager has the evidence he/she needs to fight for the raise, and is forced to make the real choice of keeping you on. Even if you're happy where you are, if they won't match the offer, you can go away for two or three years and come back asking for the higher salary.
Why wouldn't you want to go elsewhere? Either you're worth more, or you're saying the job is so good, that it's only worth $85K because they've got people lining up to take it for cheap. What's so great about the job that you'd rather build a smaller stash working at it?
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The key to asking for any raise is to have a gameplan for what you will do if they refuse or offer you less than you believe you deserve. It's not a negotiation unless you have satisfactory alternatives in mind.
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We have been told that it's easier for a manager to give someone a $20K salary increase on hiring than in the middle of employment, even if someone leaves and comes back to the same company. I think asking for the raise absolutely makes sense--they won't just give it to you without you asking--but I would agree that having another offer that you're willing to take is a must--then the manager has the evidence he/she needs to fight for the raise, and is forced to make the real choice of keeping you on. Even if you're happy where you are, if they won't match the offer, you can go away for two or three years and come back asking for the higher salary.
Why wouldn't you want to go elsewhere? Either you're worth more, or you're saying the job is so good, that it's only worth $85K because they've got people lining up to take it for cheap. What's so great about the job that you'd rather build a smaller stash working at it?
Terrim, you make good points. I hadn't considered that.
My main objection to not going elsewhere is that I'm afraid I'll be miserable / stressed elsewhere despite the higher pay and faster time to FI. I'm happy where I'm at despite the pay because I work about 40-45 hours per week, like the work I do, enjoy working with my co-workers, bosses, and clients. Also, I can work from home and have a flexible schedule when needed. I guess I just feel loyal to them because of how well they treat me.
This is my 5th job in 8 years and I've been with my current employer for about half my professional career. With a higher salary, I think I can reach FI in say 5-8 years instead of the planned 8-11 years I'm anticipating now. This is one job where the grass has definitely been greener.
The key to asking for any raise is to have a gameplan for what you will do if they refuse or offer you less than you believe you deserve. It's not a negotiation unless you have satisfactory alternatives in mind.
If they come back lower or say no, some things I'm considering are
1) Becoming self-employed and possibly working as a contractor for my employer while getting paid more while seeking other clients. This may work because it's been extremely challenging to find employees and my employer has had to start sub-contracting work out.
2) Getting a remote job and maybe someday return as Terrim mentioned. Working from home / anywhere is really appealing to me because I am married and would to spend more time at home with my wife and not have to go to the office as much.
3) Responding with what can I do to get to 105,000. If they say nothing, I'll definitely be seeking opportunities elsewhere.
- Despite the above options, I also planned on some side income from rentals and other sources too to build the passive income stream.
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Hmm. The self-employed thing--not sure.... just remember that it means less benefits--so be sure to factor those in if you mention it. You'd need to charge around $80-$100/hr to be equivalent to your current job. You spend more time drumming up business. Also, it may not be legal for them to simply convert you to a contractor. There are IRS rules....
Also, be careful--being home more with wife means working less hours. Trust me! I've worked from home for a number of years, and the toughest thing is *not* getting distracted in the house by housework/kids/wife/hobbies.
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Regarding self employment, I've definitely considered the risks as you said. I estimate my total compensation to be around 90-95,000. Health Insurance is ok and there's no tuition reimbursement or life insurance. They actually tell us how much they contribute to the different health plans. The 401k contribution is 3% of salary regardless if I contribute. PTO is 3 weeks with an additional week of sick time. Didn't know about the IRS rules though... I do know that's what a former co-worker did but the owners weren't too thrilled about it. He no longer consults there.
I'd like to think I'm very disciplined about sticking to the task at hand and not being distracted. Currently, it's just my wife and I and she works part-time so I'm not expecting to be too distracted. Also, I've worked from home here and there this year and wasn't distracted. Of course, doing it full-time is different so I'd have to wait and see.
Thanks for the feedback!
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You absolutely should be prepared to move!
As an ex engineering manager I can almost guarantee they are bringing in new hires with zero experience for more money than you are making. I saw this all the time, my new graduates would get paid the market rate and the people who now had 3 to 4 years experience would get 1% ( performance related) per year.
Well when the new graduate hire market rate is growing by 10% per year.. guess what happens? You manager will be sworn to secrecy for fear of losing his own job of course, so you'll never hear this from him/her.
I stayed with my employer for 28 years before retiring.. When I put my face out there on Linkediin I was snapped up for an easy 20% pay increase.. How many years had I allowed myself to be underpaid?
This is getting worse, the only person that will look after you in the workplace is YOU!
Now put your profile on Linked-in.. and you can use a program on the web called "resume builder" which will puke out a very professional looking Resume from your Linked in profile.. You just keep the profile updated and hit the resume buider every time you need to update the Resume.. Much easier... and free!
The ONLY bargaining power you have is the fact your holding another offer.. telling your boss your underpaid and you'll do what all managers do with empty threats.. You'll be ignored!
Do I sound a little millitant?... well I learned a lot in 30 years on both sides of the fence from where you are sitting.
Frank
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Frank,
I prefer direct and to the point. I suspect what you've outlined is happening here also. Maybe I'm being naive but I truly think that they'll want to keep me and I'm fairly confident that'll I'll get the raise I want. They also mentioned that they're going to be looking for a few more technical consultants too.
I am thinking about also saying something to the effect of finding good people has been challenging and will likely only get harder because there's only 40,000 or so computer science graduates per year and the IT industry is expected to expand by 1.2 million jobs by 2020. That implies it'll be hard to fill my position and sound like an empty threat.
In any event, thank you everyone for the feedback!
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What Frank says is standard industry practice in ALL areas of engineering, not just software.
Ask for a promotion.
I've counseled many a young engineer with how to get a raise. It starts with doing research (you've done that), stating the case of why you think you deserve the raise and promotion (from your research). Ending with "if I'm not at the correct level right now, what else should I do to reach it? What other responsibilities should I take on?"
Usually if there's money, that works.
The work I'm doing is "X"
The title and level that corresponds to is "Y"
The going rate for that in this area is "Z"
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Regardless weather you want to jump ship or not, you should always be interviewing at least once a year with a goal of getting an offer letter. That is the only way you will know what your market rate is. It will also help you get feel for the job market, what skills command top dollar, and where the industry is going.
I completely understand where your coming from about liking your employer, having flexibility, and having "career" capital with your manager. I get it i'm in the same position, I could have left and made more money but doing the math, I'm making more on an hourly basis where I am than if I were to move and have to put in 40-50 hour work weeks, I average about 30-35 hours now and that's an aggressive estimate.
So if your going to ask for a specific number then be prepared and know what your course of action will be if you don't get it. Be fully prepared for them to counter with a lower number with something along the line of we'll talk again next year or in 6 months, you need to have a answer then an there.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
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One thing I've learned about negotiation is to ask for more than I what I want, and then if necessary compromise down to where you want to be. If I were you, I'd ask for $120k a year and be prepared to accept the 105.
120k a year is the bottom of what software engineers start at in Silicon Valley. It's not unreasonable.
Of course I'm making assumptions about what your skill set is. Can you lay it out?
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BigSlick, you need to ask for that raise pronto
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Big slick...lol. I chose this handle from my old username in TFC, audioking. I actually did play some hold em tonight and won.
Mxt0133, if they counter with a lower number and say we'll re-evaluate in 6 months or X time, I'm unsure what I'd do. If they come back with say 85-90, I'd push back with 100. If they say we can't go any higher, I'd accept that and start looking for another job. When new job arrives I'd say my goodbyes even if they countered because they don't value me that much. If they say 100, I'd accept it and say what can I do to get to 105 or higher. 100 is the minimum I really wanted. When starting out, I had a goal of getting to 100 by my current age. With my birthday not too far away, it's driving me towards asking even further. That sound reasonable?
Starguru, I'm a full stack developer who's done primarily web apps using various technologies. At my current employer, I do mostly Salesforce development because our product is on the platform. I have the advanced developer certification and do pretty much everything on the platform such as apex classes, visualforce, triggers, workflow, flows, reports, objects, etc. I'm also well versed in microsoft technologies and tools like visual studio, c#, asp.net, iis, and sql server. Of course, I know html, CSs, JavaScript, various source controls, build severs, design and architectural patterns and on and on. Despite being a full stack dev, I've always preferred backend dev because I don't possess the aesthetic skills of say a web designer. To me, Google is an awesome interface.
P.S, excuse the minor typos and capitalization. Typing this much on the tablet in bed is a pain. Face punches welcome...
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I think you are selling yourself short at asking for 105k. If it were me I'd go with 120k (maybe higher).
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Starguru, you may be right. Just unsure how likely it is to get that much higher of a raise. Will definitely think about that more...
One negotiating tactic I've thought about using is potentially working more, say up to 5 hours more a week. In all honesty, I usually do work more than 5 hours extra a week because there's so much to learn and keep on top off so I wouldn't mind. Since I'm a "billable" resource, this may work. Of course, I don't want to do it but if it's for 5-7 years, I think it's a decent compromise. What do you guys think?
Another thing I thought about doing is telling my boss ahead of time that I plan on asking for a raise. Is that too premature?
Also, what do you think about asking for a large bonus of say 50,000? Just exploring different options...
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Starguru, you may be right. Just unsure how likely it is to get that much higher of a raise. Will definitely think about that more...
You won't know unless you ask:). The worst they can say is no. Someone earlier mentioned that getting another offer to see what your worth will give you a good idea of what you can get. Not a bad idea. You have almost 10 years experience, to my mind the fact that you are making less than 100k is insulting. Im insulted as a software engineer, and this isn't even my problem :).
I just filled out a basic sketch of your scenario at payscale.com and it spit out a median of 101k. That means half of engineers make more than that. Are you better than half of engineers?
Maybe you should fill out your profile at this websit to get a more accurate sketch?
One negotiating tactic I've thought about using is potentially working more, say up to 5 hours more a week. In all honesty, I usually do work more than 5 hours extra a week because there's so much to learn and keep on top off so I wouldn't mind. Since I'm a "billable" resource, this may work. Of course, I don't want to do it but if it's for 5-7 years, I think it's a decent compromise. What do you guys think?
I wouldn't to that. You are already working more than normal right?
Another thing I thought about doing is telling my boss ahead of time that I plan on asking for a raise. Is that too premature?
Also, what do you think about asking for a large bonus of say 50,000? Just exploring different options...
Once you decide what you want, I would schedule a meeting with him/her and just get to the point. I think salary is better than bonus as it affects things like 401k match, if you have one, and it's recurring.
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My prediction is if you try any of this negotiating without an offer in hand you'll get a flat "no" or at best a paltry increase.
Worse case is you find yourself with "performance or attitude" problems at your next annual review and end up on the bottom of the bonuses/increases.
Remember this is a game, If they are indeed hiring grads for more than what they are paying you, well then the motivation is to do nothing unless your serious. If you don't have an offer then your not serious, your just whining.
I would stop wasting your time and get on Linked-in and get that profile done. I still get on average of one enquiry per moth asking if I would be interested in a move... Heck I don't even have to apply to jobs.
Frank
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My prediction is if you try any of this negotiating without an offer in hand you'll get a flat "no" or at best a paltry increase.
It depends on how much they want to keep you. Some places will give you a raise to keep you from interviewing.
Also, the grass isn't always greener. If you end up interviewing I would ask how many hours are expected and calculate out your hourly pay even if the offer is salary. Make sure you know what you'd be leaving for.
OP, I have less experience than you and have received offers over 60% higher than your current pay with less responsibilities... you shouldn't have much issue getting a significant bump as you seem to be quite underpaid.
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Wow, are you me? I'm also a senior technical consultant for an accounting/IT firm only we primarily do work using Dynamics AX/CRM (Microsoft stack). For context: I'm located in the Midwest as well and currently make around 105,000 with bonuses. My base salary is around 88,000.
I recommend that you bring it up in your interview and mention that your skills are in demand. I don't think you have to go as far as lining up another offer because you could probably do that by just updating your linked in account. If I even make a small modification to my linked in account I get at least 2-3 recruiter calls the next day. I wanted to comment because I have also struggled with leaving because I know I could make more money somewhere else. My company is smaller and they know that they can't compete with the big consulting companies by offering giant salaries, but they can control their work environment. Work weeks tend to be 40-45 hours and we have work from home, etc.
I have a couple of friends that left our company to make more money and within a year were back at smaller consulting companies or companies that they were consulting for because of time and travel demands. You never know if you left you may find a similar situation for more money, but it can be hard to know for sure. For example, my one friend was on a project where he basically got on a plane on Monday and didn't return until Friday. He worked onsite at the client and a lot at night to hit some ridiculous deadline set forth by the client. I think it was tough on his family so he decided to move on after the project was over and I'm not sure if he took a pay cut or not. I think he just wanted out. With that said, I also have people I used to work with that went on to leadership positions at the companies they consulted for, made more money and still have a good work life balance.
For myself, I have been leaning towards staying at my company at least in the short term because I have 2 small kids at home that I get to see everyday. To me, it is worth it to take a bit less pay in order to have lunch with my kids at least for a few more years. Once my youngest starts school and if the yearly merit raises don't keep up I'm probably going to bail or go independent 100%. My wife is a stay at home mom/independent programmer and I work with her on some larger projects she takes on for extra money as well
Bottom line, there is a lot of opportunity out there right now for CRM consultants/programmers, especially Salesforce. You will have no problem finding another job so I don't even think you need to worry about that part of the equation until you decide what is most important to you. Just realize that opportunity is a good problem to have. I would say if they don't work with you at all that you look to leave. You can always bounce around until you find the right fit. Good Luck!
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A recruiter call is a lot different from an offer. Part of the reason for actually getting an offer is that it lets you know what the actual market rate is, rather than just having to wonder about how high you can get.
The reason I'm hesitant to agree with this advice because we had this happen recently with a junior programmer. He asked for more money and presented an offer from another company and our company did not counter because they figured that he would leave within the year anyway. Since OP actually wants to stay I'm not sure this is the best advice. In our case it created a rift between the programmer and our development manager who was actually standing up for him to HR. Based on the description that OP laid out I'm sure he is valuable and would not have an issue finding another job quickly. If his company is uncompromising then they are showing their hand and you plan accordingly.
Also, as an FYI, I have received an offer from recruiters in as little as 2 phone calls, no face to face meeting. Salary was 120,000. I eventually turned them down due to their onsite/travel requirements. CRM consultants can easily see what they are worth by performing searches on glassdoor.com for your area.
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Wow. Thanks Cathy, jsloan, jpo, ExFlyBoy, and Starguru for the other discussion points. All the feedback has definitely increased my confidence in asking and I feel much better about going into it. I can't thank everyone enough.
For determining the market rate, so far I've looked at different salary sites such as Salary.com and Glassdoor, looked at the online job boards like career builder and indeed, and spoken to a recruiter at a Salesforce recruiting agency. I wholeheartedly agree that getting an actual offer is far more valuable. If things don't go so well, I'll start looking elsewhere.
I would stop wasting your time and get on Linked-in and get that profile done. I still get on average of one enquiry per moth asking if I would be interested in a move... Heck I don't even have to apply to jobs.
ExFlyBoy, I love your no-nonsense feedback. Keep it coming! I've been updating LinkedIn here and there the past few years. Like you, I get inquiries frequently from recruiters but I turn them down by saying "I'm happy where I'm at but if something changes, I'll let you know". For the time being, I'm going to keep my LinkedIn activity to a minimum because I'm connected to my boss and other higher ups at my employer so I don't want them to know, at least not yet, that I'm looking.
The reason I'm hesitant to agree with this advice because we had this happen recently with a junior programmer. He asked for more money and presented an offer from another company and our company did not counter because they figured that he would leave within the year anyway. Since OP actually wants to stay I'm not sure this is the best advice. In our case it created a rift between the programmer and our development manager who was actually standing up for him to HR. Based on the description that OP laid out I'm sure he is valuable and would not have an issue finding another job quickly. If his company is uncompromising then they are showing their hand and you plan accordingly.
jsloan, Based on knowing my boss and the owners, the scenario you described is the most probable outcome if I did have an offer in hand. I'm sure I can find another job if needed even if it took a while. The stash can pay for multiple months of living expenses. If things get really bad, I can go back to work for a former boss who has contacted me a couple times to come back. He's the reason I left.
I would say if they don't work with you at all that you look to leave. You can always bounce around until you find the right fit. Good Luck!
I've already bounced around and I truly like where I'm at. When most people are saying is it Friday yet, I'm thinking everyday is Friday because I'm happy there except for the pay. Currently, I'm a "Technical Consultant" with, to me, "Senior Technical Consultant" responsibilities.
You won't know unless you ask:). The worst they can say is no. Someone earlier mentioned that getting another offer to see what your worth will give you a good idea of what you can get. Not a bad idea. You have almost 10 years experience, to my mind the fact that you are making less than 100k is insulting. Im insulted as a software engineer, and this isn't even my problem :).
I just filled out a basic sketch of your scenario at payscale.com and it spit out a median of 101k. That means half of engineers make more than that. Are you better than half of engineers?
I'm certainly not a genius so I'm definitely not in the top 10%. Based on my performance reviews, peer feedback, and my own self-assessment, I'd say I'm in the 70-80th percentile. Hard to say for sure.
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I've already bounced around and I truly like where I'm at. When most people are saying is it Friday yet, I'm thinking everyday is Friday because I'm happy there except for the pay. Currently, I'm a "Technical Consultant" with, to me, "Senior Technical Consultant" responsibilities.
This is key. When I was counseling some junior (and fellow female) engineers to point out their current responsibilities and ask how they can increase them, they both said "that doesn't work, they will just tell you that there is no room for you to move up."
Unbeknownst to me, the male engineer in the next cube over did just what I said, and then his manager said "wait, you are already doing the higher level of responsibility, here's a promotion and a raise".
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Your boss can't find out you are getting messages on linked in. Unless you let them read your messages, if you are connected on linked in they know you are getting messages from recruiters. They're not stupid. Also for a new job your performance review doesnt matter (i hope you are not sending your performamce reviews to future employ opps???). Jobs just like that you are shiny and new to them, they don't know any negatives yet.
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Your boss can't find out you are getting messages on linked in. Unless you let them read your messages, if you are connected on linked in they know you are getting messages from recruiters. They're not stupid. Also for a new job your performance review doesnt matter (i hope you are not sending your performamce reviews to future employ opps???). Jobs just like that you are shiny and new to them, they don't know any negatives yet.
^^^^ This... Don't worry about it. Everybody uses Linked-in and every manager is aware its a free market out there.. Stat by emailing them recruiters and asking what they got.
Frank
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Mozar, I know they can't see my private messages. I just don't want them seeing me connecting to new recruiters at this time because I don't want them thinking my foot is halfway out the door already so why give him any raise. If things don't go as planned, then I don't mind them seeing new connections.
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Mozar, I know they can't see my private messages. I just don't want them seeing me connecting to new recruiters at this time because I don't want them thinking my foot is halfway out the door already so why give him any raise. If things don't go as planned, then I don't mind them seeing new connections.
If your bosses have time to go go snooping thru your connections on LI, then they simply don't have enough to do. Seriously your not THAT important...:)
Frank
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Mozar, I know they can't see my private messages. I just don't want them seeing me connecting to new recruiters at this time because I don't want them thinking my foot is halfway out the door already so why give him any raise. If things don't go as planned, then I don't mind them seeing new connections.
You can adjust your privacy settings so they don't get notifications when you make changes or new connections. Then they'd have to do look, probably as a reaction to you asking for a raise... Then, wouldn't they take your request just a little more seriously?
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Rural,
I'm probably overthinking LinkedIn too much. I wasn't aware of the LinkedIn settings so thanks for that nugget. Next time, I'll be sure to check my social network settings.
If they do go look at LinkedIn after my request, I still have the same concern as you quoted. I'm asking this week so waiting a few more days or another week to make connections won't hurt.
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Mozar, I know they can't see my private messages. I just don't want them seeing me connecting to new recruiters at this time because I don't want them thinking my foot is halfway out the door already so why give him any raise. If things don't go as planned, then I don't mind them seeing new connections.
Do NOT connect to the recruiters. Just respond to their emails and discuss privately with them.
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Given the feedback here, perhaps the game plan should be to go talk to your manager, see if he will give you the raise. If he won't push for it, then get an offer from somewhere else, and be clear that you like it there and you don't intend to do this every year, but that you know you're underpaid. Then see if he'll get you a raise. But then what?
I think you're in a real quandary here. You don't want to leave, but you're underpaid. Unfortunately, if you're really feeling that way, and they know it, they have no incentive to give you a raise.
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As you can probably tell from the postings here, corporate culture is very important. Our former CEO did not give substantial raises without seeing an offer from a competitor. He was a very logical man, and this to him was proof of market value. Current management responds better to a memo listing achievements, with perhaps some competitive data. Offers mean that you are ready to leave. So I think the lesson is to know your company.
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Earlier this week, I had my performance meeting. Before the meeting, I posted the agenda which included talking about next year's objectives and responsibilities, since my boss mentioned that I'll be taking on more lead responsibilities, and a raise, which had a link to my raise request requesting $110,000 and why. Before I could even begin the raise discussion, he had a paper stating well we were giving you a 6% raise to $84,800 but I'll have to talk to the owner's about this. He mentioned that the company usually gives 3% raises and that since we're growing fast and such, the budget has been "leaner".
The conversation was professional and went better than I was expecting. He said is there any wiggle room here. To which I replied, I'm willing to consider another week's vacation, being able to rollover additional vacation time, and working up to an additional 5 hours a week. I didn't respond with a lower number. He said ok and that he would really hate to lose me and he'll get back to me as soon as possible, probably on Friday.
Overall, I think my chances are pretty good of getting a higher salary. The question is how much. My gut is telling me $110,000 is unlikely but we'll see. I think we're going to play the negotiating game on Friday where I expect them to counter with probably $90K and I'll probably say how about $105 with another week's vacation. After the performance meeting, I attended training sessions led by my boss and he unexpectedly called me the "Membership God" and was showcasing different examples of my work so that reinforces that he wants to keep me.
What do you guys think? Any other advice?
P.S. Thanks you everyone for your feedback. I felt unusually confident going into the meeting and during it. This wouldn't have been possible without you.
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well your boss has set out his negotiating position.. I.e a 6% raise with you take on extra work.
In other words his wriggle room is waaay less then what you expect.
I think you are at square one.. only its worse now because negotiations have commenced and he will want to wrap this up quickly.. Bottom line is you won't get paid what your worth and you'll have more work to do.
I'd get looking and hold an offer in your hand ASAP
Frank
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ExFlyBoy is right. I certainly wouldn't give up and accept $90k, for example. Keep negotiating. Then start looking.
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This doesn't sound very good. What I just read was that you're willing to accept a higher salary in exchange for more work and the possibility of rolling over vacation (an agreement which could be pulled out from under you while you're in the middle of a deadline--are you going to leave in the middle of a project to take that vacation or let it go poof?). Doesn't that mean you're working for the same hourly pay, and asked for more hours? I think you need to hold firm at $105K until he comes back with $100K. If he doesn't, get another offer to see if you're really worth $105K. Then come back with it, and tell him, you really want to stay, but you need to be paid what you're worth. At least you gave him a chance to keep you first.
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It probably doesn't make much of a difference but he was giving me a 6% raise before he knew about me asking for one. In any event, let's see what tomorrow brings and we'll go from there. Thanks for the feedback.
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Yeah, but you're asking for a megaraise :) Which you may very well be entitled to. So don't back down. Just be very polite.
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AK, you're selling yourself short. With your qualifications, you could work remotely making at least $150/hr (contracting). As an employee, depending on the city, you should be making in the $120,000-$150,000 range. Please put your resume on Dice, make sure your profile is updated on LinkedIn and just chat with the recruiters who will come a-calling. I've been successfully freelancing for the last 5 years with 95% of my jobs remote. Since I have small children, it's one of my job stipulations. We have a similar skill-set. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
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Also, as others have mentioned. You absolutely SHOULD talk to the recruiters that contact you. 1) It's a way of networking, 2) you can find out what other companies are willing to pay for your skill-set. If you haven't already, you should join some of the linkedin groups for jobs (i.e. Saleforce.com Jobs). You can make the groups you join hidden on linkedin, if you're worried about your boss.
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My knowledge of SW salaries is 15 year so other on the forums have far more accurate information. I will say that at times companies can incredibly foolish and short sighted when it comes paying engineers. They have to pay new college graduate what the market, but they can hope that rest of the workforce is too busy doing their jobs to notice what is going on.
This Xmas I had conversation with a friend who was home for the holidays. Master and Bachelors Engineering degree from Stanford, working for a very high visibility company in the Valley. Also been out of school for 7 years and 4 years at the company and had risen to engineering manager. Last year he was complaining that he couldn't get hire engineers cause Google was snapping them up at salaries 25% more than he was making. This year he got a 43% raise,and sounds like most of his staff and co-workers got a 30%. If they had done it a year ago they would have been a lot better, since his loyality was really tested and they lost several could candidates.
The everybody else is getting 3% raise is frankly insulted. You have MBA so you could in fact probably do most of the jobs that others could do. It is doubtful that more than a couple of the non-engineers could do your job. The simple fact is that there is no way they could replace you for $85K, and I think that is something you need to point out to your boss and the owner.
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I'm 25, so I haven't been working that long, but my best raises have come outside the performance review cycle. One, I asked for 6% midyear and got 7%, the other, a manager got for me after a brutal month. At performance review time they have a set amount that they're going to raise people's salaries by. Midyear it's more nebulous and flexible.
This is just my observation at my company, of course.
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No discussion came up Friday. It's been a few days so I'm unsure if that's good or bad. Gut is telling me it might be good.
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So I had a follow-up meeting about my Salary request today with the head of HR, my boss, and the CEO / owner. It started out with them explaining that the past 2 years have not been profitable because they were investing in the company and so forth. They asked me if I had started searching elsewhere and that they'd hate to lose me. I mentioned that no I'm not searching but I like to keep my options open. I also mentioned that I love working here and am willing to negotiate. I then asked if we could meet in the middle at $95,000 with another week's vacation and the owner said they'd have to go back and discuss it further.
The owner then asked if I'm looking to take on more responsibilities like managing others and doing more architecture / senior level responsibilities. I responded that yes and I would like to and that I feel I already am doing that. She mentioned that with a promotion they can have better options with pay there. Where we left off is that we're going to meet again when I get back from vacation and that they'll increase my pay to 85 for now.
My initial thoughts on this are
1) They don't obviously value me as much as I think I'm worth. Otherwise, this would be a non-issue and I would've gotten the raise already.
2) It's highly unlikely now that I'll get anywhere near $100,000 since of the meet in the middle tactic.
3) I'm going to start searching more heavily now?
4) I really don't want to leave because I'm very happy here. I have mixed feeling about this. Obviously, I have to watch out for numero uno but things are good.
What would you do? I'm guessing most people would say time to move on.
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Having a stable job that you like is worth a lot of salary. Remember, most of us are here because we value happiness over dollar throughput.
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After talking to a recruiter, they mentioned that my employer had reached out to them looking for salesforce developers and the salary range was 75 - 90K. I'm unsure how to use this information since we're still in the negotiation stage.
Right now I'm feeling insulted but trying to rationalize my feelings with knowing that this is how business goes to make myself feel better. The recruiter did mention that there was a position available where I could work remotely, with a salary in my range, and limited travel. That has piqued my interest but we'll see how things go.
Any advice on how to use that info?
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After talking to a recruiter, they mentioned that my employer had reached out to them looking for salesforce developers and the salary range was 75 - 90K. I'm unsure how to use this information since we're still in the negotiation stage.
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Remember, if the recruiter lets you know about what the company is doing, then he might let the employer know that you are talking to recruiters.
It could go either way, either they go up to 95k or they cut you loose.
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Depending on where you are at geographically, that could mean a lot or it could mean absolutely nothing. For one, if the recruiter has any incentive to make you change jobs, which they probably do, they could just be flat out lying. I'd think it would be very unprofessional for them to tell you that your employer was looking for jobs, and depending on your location possibly quite unlikely that your employer uses the same recruiter, if they use any at all. Unless maybe the recruiter was pitching your employer as a potential option for you, not knowing you already work there?
I work in software and we have positions with very high end ranges posted sometimes. We almost never fill the position at that range - it's usually reserved for the person who worked 5 years as a developer, 10 years as a senior architect, 5 years in a position managing architect or as an apprentice CTO type who wants to move down the ladder somewhat and that experience would really help them. Or sometimes people with established relationships with primary clients - i.e. they will immediately bring in several times more than someone we would hire at the bottom of the salary range with clients. Or specific credentials that clients require making them hard to find, though that doesn't sound like an issue here.
Other times we post things in a certain range because we find it much easier to recruit more junior level people vs. senior level from a quality/value standpoint. A posting for 75-90 doesn't necessarily mean that they don't want the $120,000 person and want to pay for it. Many companies strongly prefer to grow from within for lots of reasons.
--- More generally on this salary and job change topic
The below paragraphs will sound like the opposite of this so let me say this clearly: You believe you are worth salary x. If you are, find someone to pay you x in a good work environment. This is the only solution, whether that is your current company or somewhere new. If your current company can't do this then that is too bad for them - it is not particularly relevant that the company hasn't done outstanding the last 2 years, all of the reasons I lay out below, or any other reason or excuse for them to not pay you. If you're worth x, get "paid" x end of story, where "paid" is monetary and quality of (work) life.
A lot of companies don't want the 10 years experience engineer, as they don't feel like they get a good value in that price range. They're not going to fire you if you stay there, I mean they'd love to have that kind of skill, they're just not going to pay you like you have 10 years experience either. Sometimes our clients are like this - we provide value z, which is way better than their need of y, but they really do only want y so only want to pay for y. Sometimes they're right about their need and the overall value we bring to the table and sometimes they're wrong. There's really nothing wrong with this on either end and it could just mean it is time to move on to someone who wants an engineer with 10 years experience and is willing to pay them like it.
This depends a lot on the company, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss your chances and call it all a lost cause at your current gig. Sometimes getting things like this done really does little while, and remember that these people often have a lot on their plate. I've seen people (manager) get verbally thrashed by their superiors and even (the CEO) by the manager in between them and the employee playing your role because they didn't move fast enough and someone moved on. They had every intention of doing so but didn't do it fast. I've also seen people organize new teams to create brand new positions for people they wanted to keep (and pay to keep), but couldn't simply promote them and give them a 25% raise with no additional responsibilities because it would wreak havoc on the morale of the rest of the workplace or even cause people already at that salary levels with that responsibility to quit. Especially if there really is a hard-and-fast system of promotions and pay grades - people might not like to see others not have to put in the time and it could be extremely obvious to anyone who is above a certain level having gone through it, even if it is unnoticeable to people who haven't (you).
I think the only thing we can say they "obviously don't think you're worth" is something crazy like $200,000, where they'd stumble over themselves to raise your pay to $100,000 and be sure you appreciated their magnanimity in the meantime. No matter what they raise your pay to expect them to act like it is the very limits of their capability. But remember that good companies don't want to play chicken any more than you do. Hiring good talent is often ungodly expensive and there can be a lot of pressure on managers to boot. Not all of them realize that though, and in some cases it isn't hard or draining for them at all. Hence the negotiations :).
Also, if it comes down to it be careful with throwing an offer down on the table unless you're willing to leave and be hesitant to engage in the counteroffer game.
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tl;dr: Probably wouldn't do anything with this piece information.
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AK, why on Earth did you tell your employer your not looking?
The whole idea is to make them think you could leave.. you should have declined to answer.
So now that you have gone down your path and its CLEAR it doesn't work.. Have you generated your LI profile and got your resume done yet?
Your just wasting time.. if you think your worth $105k.. then get an offer for $105k then negotiate.. not before, you have zero power!
The only way I got $165k (when they offered less than $100k) was because I knew they needed me and I told them I wouldn't work for less.. Period.
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AK, go and get another job offer. You need to know what you are really worth. You can't negotiate with them when you have your own internal uncertainty.
You said, you weren't looking before when you talked to them. Sure... That was true.
But now you are......
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There is something to be said for working someplace that you love. If you can get over not being paid what your worth, then you should stay.
When you're ready to go...there are plenty of > $120,000 Salesforce.com jobs. Below is a small sampling...
https://www.dice.com/jobs/detail/Sr.-Salesforce-Consultant-%28REMOTE%29-ForceBrain-Inc.-San-Francisco-CA-94110/10513370/874365
http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?k=Job&c=qmg9Vfwq&j=oKGfYfwn&s=Indeed
http://ejob.bz/ATS/PortalViewRequirement.do?source=Indeed&reqGK=871814
https://www.dice.com/jobs/detail/Application+Developer+-+API%2C+SalesForce%2C+SOA/cybercod/MS2-1183781?src=32&utm_source=Indeed&utm_medium=Aggregator&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Advocacy_Ongoing&rx_source=Indeed&rx_campaign=Indeed26&rx_group=109
http://jobs.recruitics.com/job/Salesforce-Developer-Lake-Mary-Florida-33175362?rx_job=33175362&rx_source=Indeed&rx_campaign=Indeed0
http://www.aplitrak.com/?adid=TUVQUC4xNzMwMC4xNzYwQHN0aHJlZXVzLmFwbGl0cmFrLmNvbQ&utm_source=Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed
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Having a stable job that you like is worth a lot of salary. Remember, most of us are here because we value happiness over dollar throughput.
Yes it is but.. Salary and motivation is a complicated thing. It impacts your sense of self worth, your willingness to go the extra mile,and your sense of fairness.
Although you liked your job, that was before it became abundantly clear that you were significantly underpaid, and your company didn't value your service as much as the market did.
You can't really unlearn the information that you now know. So without jumping through significant mental hoops, you are never going to be as happy with your job as you were 6 months ago.
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Really good feedback everyone!! This community is great and I'm honored to be here.
Cathy, I definitely tend to be "pleasing" and sometimes complacent. Honestly, I'm happy I had the courage to ask for a raise. For me, that was a huge step. For others, probably common. Changing my mindset to "nothing is good enough" will be tough because I tend to be very tolerable so that'll be a " transition.
Clifp, your comments about salary and motivation are spot on for me. I feel like I'll only do the minimum to maintain my performance instead of going above and beyond like I have been unless they get me to where I want to be. That's very unlike me because I want to do everything possible to help the company succeed.
Chopper41, that is exactly what I'm wrestling with. I'm happy but knowing I'm underpaid is not sitting well with me. I feel lucky to be happy to go into work everyday most days since I've worked here the last few years.
Terri and ExFlyBoy, when I return from vacation, the search is on with full force. At the bare minimum, it'll tell me what I'm worth.on the bright side, I'm good at interviewing and showcasing myself.
Swashbucklinstashe, very interesting points. While they kept telling me that they're being unprofitable, I kept thinking that at least that was being minimized by me. Knowing now that they're looking for up to 3 more salesforce developers in my salary range and I'll probably be mentoring them is making my skin crawl. As mentioned above, I'm going to find somewhere that'll pay me X.
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Hi Everyone. I found MMM a year ago and have been OCDing about F.I.R.E ever since. My current savings rate is 50% and I'm working on increasing it further. While tackling the spend side of the equation, I thought why not tackle the income side too. Any advice based on my plan to ask for a raise would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Background
Next Week, I have a performance review with my boss and I plan on asking for a raise to $105,000 from $80,000 and discuss why it's warranted based on my contributions. I've never actually asked for a raise in the almost 8 years being a Software Engineer. I had always just received merit raises and bonuses. To prepare for this, I've spent probably 15-20 hours documenting my accomplishments, researching the market rate for similar software positions in my area using sites like Glassdoor and Salary.com, and researching these forums and the internet about how to go about asking for a raise. Negotiating is a skill I'm working on improving and I definitely need more practice.
I've been with my current employer for almost 4 years and am extremely happy being there. Our company now has a product on the market that I had a large hand in getting it to where it is. Because it's so successful, we're growing fast and have increased our workforce by about 40% this year alone because of the increased demand.
My current position is Technical Consultant. Based on that title's responsibilities, I have to gather requirements, design, implement, test, and document software based on customer's needs. I do all of that plus interview job candidates, mentor new employees, architect / design various customizations for other projects I'm not directly on, troubleshoot other people's issues because I'm the GoTo guy on certain technologies and domains, and provide training to partners. Additionally, I put in extra hours to enhance various tools and processes to streamline things which have made notable contributions. Currently, all the new hires, mostly recent grads, also have the title of technical consultant. Based on the what I've described, I think I'm more of a Senior Technical Consultant or Lead.
At my employer, we typically have monthly performance meetings with an annual performance meeting for raises and such near year end. My reviews have all been outstanding and for a few months my boss did not schedule any performance meetings. I actually asked for my performance meeting to be rescheduled to next week because it was scheduled during my vacation this week. In past performance meetings, I've told my boss that I don't want to code forever and this past week he mentioned that beginning next year, I'll be doing mostly architect / design work for projects. While having lunch with some of our new hires a couple months ago, my boss said that I was "brilliant" which made me feel good.
I also have a B.S. in Computer Science and a Master's in Business Administration with a concentration in Accounting and many Finance classes taken. The accounting and finance background has really been helpful.
If it helps, I'm located in western New York. Also, I've been perusing CareerBuilder and Indeed and see Remote positions where I can work from home and potentially earn even more than what I'm asking for. While I could earn more elsewhere while working from home, I'm really happy where I'm at and am afraid of not being happy elsewhere despite the higher income.
Looking For Feedback On
- Should I ask for a promotion as well as a raise?
- Is asking for a $25,000 raise too much? I realize that's above what most receive but I feel like I'm worth that based on my skills, going market rate, and most importantly the contributions I've made to my employer and will continue to make.
- Should I just ask for a raise without giving a number? I'm worried that asking for a specific number will potentially leave money on the table if they say sure without any negotiating as well as them thinking I'm greedy.
- Anything else you feel would be relevant.
I will give some contrasting advice here.
I agree that it's good for you to ask for a raise; you seem to be an asset to the company. Good for retiring earlier, good as personal development for yourself.
On the other hand, you have said you like your job and its relaxed environment. You're going to need to decide if those benefits are worth the lower salary. With the promotion, you're going to have larger expectations on your shoulders. If you want to grow your career, then it could be a good opportunity. However, if you're just looking to accelerate your way towards early retirement, then you might not be in the right mindset to handle the extra responsibility.
I don't believe that the grass is always greener; you only live once, and I personally believe in taking chances to make yourself happier and feel more fulfilled in your career. However, the impression I have from you is that you are already happy with your job. A lot of people here are not happy with their jobs. With a job you are happy with, you can coast into early retirement, enjoying life along the way. There may be other higher paying jobs out there; will they have the same good work atmosphere and work/life balance that you enjoy now? Important things to determine. Are you willing to sacrifice that for higher pay?
To this end, the question is not whether you are underpaid relative to other software engineers in general; the question is whether you are underpaid compared to other software engineers in similar locations, with similar relaxed work hours, with a good environment, etc...
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AK, I realize that you're worried that your next job won't be as good as this one. You can always leave and come back--don't burn any bridges. The problem is that things can be greener on the other side if you find the right plot of grass :)
I once worked at a laid-back place. Come when you want, go when you want. Nerf gun fights mid afternoon. It was my first real job. Small company. One of my coworkers had worked other jobs and had expectations--like a yearly review. I didn't want a yearly review--I didn't think highly of my work, and I didn't like criticism. But the more his boss put off his yearly review, said "we don't give raises", and gave excuses, the more this guy just played Doom all day. He had no reason not to. He knew he was being underpaid, he knew that performance didn't really matter. Then one day he came in and confided with me that he'd gotten another job. "People here are seriously underpaid. The difference in salary is going to pay for a new car this year." He was happy going somewhere else where he would be valued and challenged. He never looked back, and he never regretted his decision.
People were happy at that company. Two or three are still working there of the original 10, so clearly, it was a good work environment for them. Others were happy to leave--they wanted something more. I think it's ok to try again, to see if something else is better for you. I worry that clifp is right--now that you know, now that they're giving you excuses, it's going to be hard to enjoy your job the same way. You seem to have been burned by your experience with your last job. Doesn't mean your next one can't be better. I learned a lot from the company I mentioned above--I will never ever work in that kind of an environment again--it didn't work out for me. But I know how to recognize it. The question is, how do you formulate questions to answer your concerns about the work environment? What are you afraid of, how do you recognize it?
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Since I like reading the outcomes in other posts, here's what happened...
This week, we had the 3rd and final negotiation. They promoted me to a Lead role and they increased my Salary to $90 retroactively to when the raise was originally requested. They also reiterated how the company has been unprofitable and after a year in this role they'll see what they can do with Salary. I thought about pushing back but could tell it was not going to happen so I didn't bother.
Others would probably feel ecstatic and honored with the promotion but I feel indifferent, betrayed, and just another "Resource".
From here, the job search continues.... with my first phone interview later this week.
Thank you everyone for the awesome feedback and varying perspectives. I can't express enough how appreciative and grateful I am.
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but I feel indifferent, betrayed, and just another "Resource".
I think the sooner people figure this out the better their careers and jobs will be. There is a Human Resource department for a reason, it's because that is how most businesses of think of their employees. It's not a bad or evil thing it's just the necessities of running a business that is not a close family business. You need to respond and deal with your employers and managers in the same manner.
We just found out that we are being targeted for acquisition and whole office is already talking about layoffs, rightfully so but still to early. It's just a fact of life for corporate employees/resources in today's business environment where next quarter's numbers are that matters to investor and management.
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Get another offer and then you can always go back to your boss and see if they will match it or beat it. You'd be surprised. If you are really as good as you say you are then they will want to keep you.
I was making about 80k similar to you and happy with my job because it wasn't so stressful. But I got calls from recruiters on linked in and was curious what kind of offers I could get. So I did an interview and got an offer for 92k. I didn't really want to leave cuz I knew the new job would be harder and more stressful. I went to my boss with the offer and told them I didn't really want to leave but that I needed to be paid more. They asked me how much I wanted and I didn't want to sound too greedy so I said I would stay for 95k. They gave that to me plus a 5k bonus and replied back by the next day. Now I'm thinking I could have asked for more lol. Since then they have been giving me regular raises and I'm now making 113k. I was like you and had never asked for a raise before. I think if I hadn't gone to them with an offer I would still be making what I did before. They are not going to offer you more than what they need to. I think the idea that I was looking around made them scared to lose me because you don't realize what you have until you think you might lose it. It's much easier to negotiate with another offer in hand. Of course, I knew what I was worth and I knew they wanted to keep me but even so if they had not met or beat the offer I was willing to walk.
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Hey AK,
Thanks for posting all this - gives me a very insightful perspective. I too am in a similar boat, with friends who have jumped way far ahead of myself (director or super senior positions probably netting at least $150k-$200k at this point in their lives.
In any case it sounds to me like the consensus, if you want a more significant salary increase beyond the standard "3% we'll keep you floating with inflation" fallback, is that you have to interview outside the company to initiate things. I'm in a position where I feel like I may need to do this as well. But first I'd like to discuss the possibility of being promoted to principal or a lead position, which I believe would garner more justification for something along the lines of a 10-15% (or even 20%) increase depending on things. I think my company is fair and I do enjoy working there (after the last couple places I worked at) but I also think that when I came in I undervalued myself. I feel like I've undervalued myself quite a bit for the last couple jobs and I've been working for at least 10 years now.
I'm really not good with negotiations for salary so it's really good to see all the advice here. I'm probably gonna have to re-read through much of it to get a better bearing for myself. The other thing is that I dread interviews, especially after a couple that weren't so great (notably one where I just froze up). It was super-embarrassing and has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm happy where I am but there's always that "grass is greener" mentality and all the "what ifs" that start popping up. But based on the last jobs I held before coming back to my current place (my first job was actually at this same company before I left to go onto the last two "grass is greener" jobs). Funny how that all works out but I feel like I really took this place (and my manager) for granted back when I first worked here. Had I waited it out and been more patient at the time, I'm pretty certain I would be making 20-25% more than I am now and likely in a higher position... where the wind blows, I suppose.
Right now I'm still at a crossroads, entertaining the idea of looking for positions and interviewing (for leverage to ask) as well as going for more certifications and a Masters.
I wish you all the best with your current situation and hope you figure something that works out best for you. I think one thing, which isn't a deal-breaker but can be important, is to try not to burn any bridges. In some cases, it's sort of unavoidable. In my case, I kind of indirectly burned bridges with some people by leaving at a time when it was busy (but seriously, when is it EVER a good time to leave a company from their perspective?) as well as responding with "I'd rather not share" when they asked me what company I was headed to next. It's hard because I want to be good with old coworkers but it just doesn't always work out that way.
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Hey AK,
I just want to encourage you to not take it personally. I asked for a 10% raise recently and am working as a contractor. The company dicked me around and countered with a 1.5 raise and then a 3% raise. This was in a situation where I held all of the leverage
- I was personally requested by the customer
- The customer is very satisfied by my performance and renewed the contract because of it
- I am the senior most engineer in the company besides the boss
- There are no other qualified resources to take on the role.
Ultimately they capitulated and gave me what I asked for, but it put a bad taste in my mouth.
For me, it was a learning experience because I was a bit naive. I thought it wouldn't be an issue due to the fact that my reasons for asking were fair, the amount was reasonable, and I had a good relationship with all parties involved. Clearly, that wasn't the case.
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Let this be a lesson. ALWAYS be interviewing.
I interview once a year, even if I am happy with my job. Maybe it ends up with nothing. Maybe I get offered my dream job with a 30% raise (how I got current job). It happens!
But sitting for a few years with no offers.. that is no good. You don't know your true value. Your company doesn't know your true value, etc.
I had to do some job trading, but with it I managed to get from 80k -> 140k as a software dev in 3 years. Could I have ever got a 60k raise? Hell no.
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This is an excellent thread. I started as an intern with an IT company at $33k. I got to $57k after 22 months and four promotions - I have learned a lot in the last two years and feel like I am finally getting to the point where I'd be comfortable enough with my skillset to look elsewhere. I am planning on getting my VCP in the next 3 weeks, which should add substantially to my marketability/value, so I am curious to see where I end up by the end of the year!
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AK, you're practically describing exactly what I went through a few weeks ago.
I think you've established some good groundwork. They know what you want and they know that they were unable to give it to you, but bottom line - they know you're not a pushover. I think this sets you up well to shop around. If you get a better offer you can go back to your company and tell them what offers you've received and ask if they can match. I think this will be received better since you were blunt with them up front on what you wanted and they couldn't give it to you. You certainly don't want to be an asshole, but you don't want to let them push you around when it's in their best interest to pay you as little as they can.
At the end of the day you have to be happy with your compensation, and the proof is in the pudding. if you're worth what you're asking for, then someone out there is willing to give it to you. Keep looking until you find it, either at that company or at another.
That being said, your percent gain in salary, although not what you wanted (mine wasn't either), is still a big win. It should be treated as such, but not something that you settle on.
Good luck and keep us updated with your future endeavors!
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If you really really like your job 10k is not worth the fuss. You can make that up elsewhere outside of your day job.
Its best to negotiate raises when you are being promoted. My husband successfully negotiated 20k on his salary a few years ago during a promotion.
People get weird at the 100k mark for some reason. (Hiring managers)
A lot of times people take it personally (well I wasn't earning that much at that age...so why should he...)
Are you easily replaceable? Ask yourself that question. Thats where they are coming from with this.
And yes you are being underpaid and they are losing out on a deal with you asking for more money.
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Wow, the excellent content keeps coming... Where to start...
If you really really like your job 10k is not worth the fuss. You can make that up elsewhere outside of your day job.
I would've totally agreed with you if the recruiter didn't inform me that my employer is willing to pay a new hire between $75-90. Since many of our new hires have been recent grads or "Junior" devs, I can't help but feel insulted thinking about it every time. Knowing that still rubs me the wrong way even with the promotion and 10K increase in Salary. It's supposed to be just business but my employer is a small company so I have gotten to know everyone pretty well so it feels personal. Too complainypants?
I figure why not get a higher paying position and still moonlight to a faster FIRE... Now that I've started applying to a few jobs, I'm getting emails and calls back so my outlook looks positive.
Are you easily replaceable? Ask yourself that question. Thats where they are coming from with this.
I would say no actually BUT we'll find out. I think my novice negotiating skills permeate through easily and they know that. Lesson learned about not accepting the first number they push back with. Definitely have to work on "Nothing is good enough" as someone posted earlier.
That being said, your percent gain in salary, although not what you wanted (mine wasn't either), is still a big win. It should be treated as such, but not something that you settle on.
Good luck and keep us updated with your future endeavors!
Thanks for the support and continue with the updates.
Right now I'm still at a crossroads, entertaining the idea of looking for positions and interviewing (for leverage to ask) as well as going for more certifications and a Masters.
I earned my M.B.A at night while working full time. At the time, it seemed like an awesome degree but it didn't seem to help me with Salary. (Could also be from my poor negotiating skills...). However, I learned a ton of information and helps with the business side of things. My motivation for an M.B.A was it provided other non-technical skills allowing me to transition into a different career if I wanted, allow me to have better odds of starting a successful business, and better promotion / salary potential. I do regret getting student loans to pay for it all though.
My advice is truly think about what you want to do professionally and if the Master's will really help you get there. This, of course, depends. If a certification will help you get there too, start there. It'll probably be cheaper and less time intensive.
Let this be a lesson. ALWAYS be interviewing.
Very much noted! Other lessons I've learned from this experience..
It's just business and loyalty from either side is superficial at best.
Get better at negotiating. I'll do this by practicing more at markets and reading more about it. This'll be an ongoing endeavor.
When I first started out, I didn't research salaries and definitely started low at $40,000. After working at minimum wage jobs, I thought I was a millionaire. Getting to $90K in almost 8 years is not bad I guess. Let that be a lesson to others as well... Know what the market is willing to pay out of college, what skills are in demand that you like doing, and go from there.
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It's just business and loyalty from either side is superficial at best.
+1000. There is a great scene The Office where Dwight says:
“Would I ever leave this company? Look, I’m all about loyalty. In fact, I feel like part of what I’m being paid for here is my loyalty. But if there were somewhere else that valued loyalty more highly… I’m going wherever they value loyalty the most.”
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Get better at negotiating. I'll do this by practicing more at markets and reading more about it. This'll be an ongoing endeavor.
Negotiating is hard. I hate it. Needed to buy some furniture recently. Sent my wife with instructions I wouldn't pay more than X for a dresser where X was retail price / 2. She doesn't like it either but can stick to a script. She comes home a few hours with a big smile, and she managed to pull it off with the husband card.
The key to negotiating I think is to realize both sides can be happy. You aren't trying to screw them. You think you are worth more, and do good work. If you can't settle on a price that is fair to both sides, then that is that.
I need to get better at this also though, harder to send my wife for a job negotiation haha.
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... Harder to send my wife to a job negotiation haha
That actually made me lol. Sounds like I could take some tips from her too.
It seems that I'm at least marketable because I have another phone interview Monday at a different company...
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I don't have as much to add as some of these battle hardened career pros (I'm just a first year CS student) but I would like to add that I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that you like your current job a lot. I'm sure you will probably be able to find another job at a company that is just as great, software is an awesome industry filled with cool and intelligent people.
All 3 companies I've worked for have been full of great people doing interesting things, but each time I moved I've found that the next company is even better than the previous.
Another piece of advice I haven't seen here is to try exploring some of the more SE-specific avenues of getting hired. Look on meetup.com for your city and maybe attend a few programmer meetups, not only are they a good way to get hired but they are a good way to get a feel for the different companies in your area. As a bonus, most of the Meetups are hosted by cool companies that donate their space because they are trying to suss out local programmers. I was an active member of my local Ruby group and there were constantly companies looking for new hires.
Also consider creating a Github profile and contributing to some open source projects, lots of the newer cooler companies really like to see them. Plus it's a fun hobby and there are so many interesting things to work on out there.
The market is good for software engineers these days, and you seem like you should be an attractive hire given that you have full stack web experience!
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I'll checkout meetup.com. Thanks for the tip.
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All 3 companies I've worked for have been full of great people doing interesting things, but each time I moved I've found that the next company is even better than the previous.
That is because you are 22, give it 10 years.
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AK,
I'm happy to read that you're interviewing. Now, only the sky is the limit. Good on you!
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Another quick update... Thursday involved having 2 phone interviews, an initial screening with an executive Vice President for a consulting firm in Florida and a follow-up with a technical lead at another consulting firm in NYC. On Friday, the recruiter called me back and said the NYC firm wants to bring me onsite for an interview on Thursday, so that's where I'm headed. things are looking good...
To be honest, I didn't expect things to be moving so fast. Now, I'm actually considering that if the company is a good fit and presents a good offer and my current employer counters with the same offer, would I stay.... Probably not but having mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I still feel insulted and exploited but on the other hand, i am still content at my job and have not let my performance suffer too much. One concern is if I stay, will future raises and promotions be harder and will I be treated differently? In the past, I always moved on even after my employer wanted me to stay but we'll see. Hopefully, that doesn't sound too contradictory to my earlier posts.
What do you guys think?
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will future raises and promotions be harder and will I be treated differently?
the answer is yes
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On the one hand, I still feel insulted and exploited but on the other hand, i am still content at my job and have not let my performance suffer too much.
...
What do you guys think?
Move on. Unless you can truly put it behind you and focus on your end goal. Every time you need to put in 110% you will have this chip on your shoulder or when things get difficult and you don't trust your manager or company and vice versa it's not going to be a fun situation.
And you'll be in this same position again in about two to three years.
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will future raises and promotions be harder and will I be treated differently?
the answer is yes
For raise I completely agree. For promotions maybe not. If they are pay 110,000 to other supervisor/managers/technical leads or whatever they call the next rung up the chain, I don't think making $110K now would be a hindrance to getting the title and added responsibility (be careful what you wish for). It may even be help. But I would expect you to get a promotion and fairly minimal raise.
Still I wouldn't sweat that too much. Given my choice between making $90k with prospect of getting 8% raises and 110K and 3% raises, it takes a long long time to catch up.
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I would move on.
Any new updates?
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So I had a follow-up meeting about my Salary request today with the head of HR, my boss, and the CEO / owner. It started out with them explaining that the past 2 years have not been profitable because they were investing in the company and so forth. They asked me if I had started searching elsewhere and that they'd hate to lose me. I mentioned that no I'm not searching but I like to keep my options open. I also mentioned that I love working here and am willing to negotiate. I then asked if we could meet in the middle at $95,000 with another week's vacation and the owner said they'd have to go back and discuss it further.
The owner then asked if I'm looking to take on more responsibilities like managing others and doing more architecture / senior level responsibilities. I responded that yes and I would like to and that I feel I already am doing that. She mentioned that with a promotion they can have better options with pay there. Where we left off is that we're going to meet again when I get back from vacation and that they'll increase my pay to 85 for now.
My initial thoughts on this are
1) They don't obviously value me as much as I think I'm worth. Otherwise, this would be a non-issue and I would've gotten the raise already.
2) It's highly unlikely now that I'll get anywhere near $100,000 since of the meet in the middle tactic.
3) I'm going to start searching more heavily now?
4) I really don't want to leave because I'm very happy here. I have mixed feeling about this. Obviously, I have to watch out for numero uno but things are good.
What would you do? I'm guessing most people would say time to move on.
I'm also in Western NY and want to ask what your research has shown for salary "range" for your level of experience and number of years in the industry?
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Another quick update... Thursday involved having 2 phone interviews, an initial screening with an executive Vice President for a consulting firm in Florida and a follow-up with a technical lead at another consulting firm in NYC. On Friday, the recruiter called me back and said the NYC firm wants to bring me onsite for an interview on Thursday, so that's where I'm headed. things are looking good...
To be honest, I didn't expect things to be moving so fast. Now, I'm actually considering that if the company is a good fit and presents a good offer and my current employer counters with the same offer, would I stay.... Probably not but having mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I still feel insulted and exploited but on the other hand, i am still content at my job and have not let my performance suffer too much. One concern is if I stay, will future raises and promotions be harder and will I be treated differently? In the past, I always moved on even after my employer wanted me to stay but we'll see. Hopefully, that doesn't sound too contradictory to my earlier posts.
What do you guys think?
Insulted and exploited? No one is exploiting you unless you allow it. Salary is based on what one individual entity is willing to pay for that one job at the one entity. And, as someone else here has said, it typically is more difficult to get a large increase once you're in a company.
Make certain to adequately compare any offers for salary, health insurance costs(do they offer HDHPs with HSA), 401(k)/profit sharing, vesting schedule, LTD, vacation, sick days, tuition reimbursement(if applicable).
Also, find out the last time they laid off employees. How volatile is their business?
P.S. Is it possible for your wife to work full-time?
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Another quick update... Thursday involved having 2 phone interviews, an initial screening with an executive Vice President for a consulting firm in Florida and a follow-up with a technical lead at another consulting firm in NYC. On Friday, the recruiter called me back and said the NYC firm wants to bring me onsite for an interview on Thursday, so that's where I'm headed. things are looking good...
To be honest, I didn't expect things to be moving so fast. Now, I'm actually considering that if the company is a good fit and presents a good offer and my current employer counters with the same offer, would I stay.... Probably not but having mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I still feel insulted and exploited but on the other hand, i am still content at my job and have not let my performance suffer too much. One concern is if I stay, will future raises and promotions be harder and will I be treated differently? In the past, I always moved on even after my employer wanted me to stay but we'll see. Hopefully, that doesn't sound too contradictory to my earlier posts.
What do you guys think?
I think it's likely better to move on given the circumstances - I think there's a higher chance future raises and or promotions will be difficult. It all really depends on your relationship(s) with the higher-ups at your current place. If you're on really great terms (to the point where you can talk about this stuff flat out openly without worrying) the chances are higher that they'll treat you favorably. But if they look at you and treat you strictly as either an asset or liability in terms of performance, and if there's not much of a personal relationship behind it, I think people can get all butt-hurt and resort to becoming all political and recommending against raises/promotions (if not your manager than someone else who either knows about your situation directly or indirectly).
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Get better at negotiating. I'll do this by practicing more at markets and reading more about it. This'll be an ongoing endeavor.
Negotiating is hard. I hate it. Needed to buy some furniture recently. Sent my wife with instructions I wouldn't pay more than X for a dresser where X was retail price / 2. She doesn't like it either but can stick to a script. She comes home a few hours with a big smile, and she managed to pull it off with the husband card.
The key to negotiating I think is to realize both sides can be happy. You aren't trying to screw them. You think you are worth more, and do good work. If you can't settle on a price that is fair to both sides, then that is that.
I need to get better at this also though, harder to send my wife for a job negotiation haha.
ha I've been really successful in setting up my husband to get raises, but not for myself. Ah well, at this point, with two little kids, I have to be realistic. If a new job comes with a big raise and 10 extra hours a week, it ain't happening.
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Another quick update... Thursday involved having 2 phone interviews, an initial screening with an executive Vice President for a consulting firm in Florida and a follow-up with a technical lead at another consulting firm in NYC. On Friday, the recruiter called me back and said the NYC firm wants to bring me onsite for an interview on Thursday, so that's where I'm headed. things are looking good...
To be honest, I didn't expect things to be moving so fast. Now, I'm actually considering that if the company is a good fit and presents a good offer and my current employer counters with the same offer, would I stay.... Probably not but having mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I still feel insulted and exploited but on the other hand, i am still content at my job and have not let my performance suffer too much. One concern is if I stay, will future raises and promotions be harder and will I be treated differently? In the past, I always moved on even after my employer wanted me to stay but we'll see. Hopefully, that doesn't sound too contradictory to my earlier posts.
What do you guys think?
It's so hard to not take it personally.
you work so hard and get treated this way. So your company doesn't "value" you and will give money to people coming in, because they have to. It SEEMS personal to you, but really, it's business. They don't have to pay you, so they don't. It's not that they don't like you. They want to keep the best people they can for the least amount of money.
So don't get your feelings hurt, and don't let it affect you negatively. In your situation, I would leave. If I get to the point where I'm actually interviewing? I'm out the door (had an interview last summer, took 3 days off for the prep and the interview, didn't get the job. If I had, I'd have been gone.) BUT BUT BUT I don't want to burn bridges, or say "FU FOR NOT VALUING ME!!"
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Thursday was interesting... 3 interviews from 10 am - 12 with the heads of different depts. Even though I've interviewed numerous times at different companies and have interviewed numerous candidates, I was nervous going into it. A decent amount of anxiety was from having a 6 am flight where boarding begins at 5:20 and being a zombie during the interview and also getting to their office on time. The flight arrived around 8 and then I grabbed a taxi to midtown. That took 90 minutes from JFK. With 30 minutes until the interview, I hung out at dunkin for a little while and then headed over.
After sitting down with the first guy, I calmed right down because he was an easy going guy and it was a relaxed conversation. We talked about my experiences with Salesforce, how I've lead different projects, why I'm looking for other opportunities, and other things. This was only suppose to take 40 minutes but took 60 instead. Usually, I take that as a good sign.
The next guy was a functional manager who has been with the company for a couple years. This was more of a pm type interview asking things like how would I do this and that with clients. Another easy going straight answering type of guy like me so this was comfortable too. He was working from home because his son wasn't feeling well. I asked him how they felt about remote employees and he said that they already have some and it works out well. lastly, he mentions that the next guy is going to drill me hard with tech questions so I'm like ok.
The last guy was polite but serious. We talked about my experiences, tech skills, responsibilities I'd take on, various Salesforce platform things and other stuff. I thought he was going to ask me puzzle questions like given a 5 gallon and 3 gallon bucket, how do you get 4 gallons ? Not a big fan of those. We kept it higher level and I think chatting about the different things I've done demonstrated that I knew the platform enough that he didn't have to ask me more pointed questions. At the end, I said I'd love to work here and where do we go from here. He mentioned they'll talk internally and get back to me soon by Friday or early next week. I left around 12:30
After meeting with them, I'm really excited about working there. They seem like the work hard play hard type like me. They strive for 40 hour weeks and professional development for employees.
Friday, the recruiter calls and says all 3 thought I did great and that I'd be a good fit. She expects me to have either 1 more interview with the founders or to get an offer this week. She then asks if they do give me an offer and my company counters, what I'll do. I'm candid with her and say I'll probably leave but have mixed feelings about it. Of course, she points out the various things others have mentioned here and the different risks that happen down the line. Bottom line, things are looking good..
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MBL,
For me, it's hard not to take it personally. I know it's just business but my employer is small and the employees are pretty close with each other. I've worked for corporations where I was just an asset / liability and this is not like that to that extent.
Based on my research, a senior software engineer with similar qualifications to mine would expect a salary in the low 100s and a total compensation package with medical, PTO, LTD, and other benefits for a job in wny. Of course, your mileage will vary.
You're absolutely correct to compare total compensation packages. Also, I want to know what the culture is like, growth prospects, expected workload, travel requirements, flexibility and other things. The NYC firm meets all my criteria so far and hopefully I'll get an offer soon to compare compensation packages. The recruiter says I should expect a salary offer around 120 with a 10% annual bonus plus benefits. For a working from home job with minimal travel requirements, that is acceptable for me.
My wife does work full time in education which is a perfect fit for where she wants to be. She could earn more elsewhere but she's happy so that's all that matters to me.
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MBL,
For me, it's hard not to take it personally. I know it's just business but my employer is small and the employees are pretty close with each other. I've worked for corporations where I was just an asset / liability and this is not like that to that extent.
Based on my research, a senior software engineer with similar qualifications to mine would expect a salary in the low 100s and a total compensation package with medical, PTO, LTD, and other benefits for a job in wny. Of course, your mileage will vary.
You're absolutely correct to compare total compensation packages. Also, I want to know what the culture is like, growth prospects, expected workload, travel requirements, flexibility and other things. The NYC firm meets all my criteria so far and hopefully I'll get an offer soon to compare compensation packages. The recruiter says I should expect a salary offer around 120 with a 10% annual bonus plus benefits. For a working from home job with minimal travel requirements, that is acceptable for me.
My wife does work full time in education which is a perfect fit for where she wants to be. She could earn more elsewhere but she's happy so that's all that matters to me.
soo hard to not take it personally. I am very bad at this.
I am a senior semiconductor engineer. We have hired four other senior engineers in the last 4 years.
Two (men) have been next to useless and I've had to train them. They each are paid about $30k to $40k more than me.
Two (women) were great with specific experience that we needed. They made $12k to $20k more than me. Less than the men. One quit and the other got laid off. (How the other two did not get laid off is a complete mystery. No, it's not, they suck up to the right people.)
So yes, I am personally offended that the President, whom I've known for 15 years, can blatantly play this game.
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It frustrates me that I'm training a guy who makes more than me because he's located in the Bay Area. Nothing against him, it just provides our global clients no extra value to have this guy live in California versus the low COL area where I live. But big companies have their structures.
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I am a senior semiconductor engineer. We have hired four other senior engineers in the last 4 years.
Two (men) have been next to useless and I've had to train them. They each are paid about $30k to $40k more than me.
Two (women) were great with specific experience that we needed. They made $12k to $20k more than me. Less than the men. One quit and the other got laid off. (How the other two did not get laid off is a complete mystery. No, it's not, they suck up to the right people.)
So yes, I am personally offended that the President, whom I've known for 15 years, can blatantly play this game.
I absolutely wish engineering wasn't mostly men. All the women engineers I've known were so talented and always brought a much needed different perspective to the problems, discussions and company overall. Different strokes for different folks I guess...
It sounds like you are feeling exploited as well. Have you sought out getting a raise that's, at least, on par to these hires? Since they've kept you around, I imagine you're a very valuable employee. Is getting another job as a senior semiconductor engineer easily done? Money is certainly not everything. I still have mixed feelings about leaving my current employer. Other than the salary, I really like working there so if that's why you're staying, I totally understand. Besides the salary, another motivator for me is that my wife is expecting with our first. Subconsciously, I think this has driven me more to seek out to be a better provider. I guess it's called "provider panic".
In any event, good luck in whatever decisions and path you choose. I appreciate all the feedback you and the rest of the community have given.
It frustrates me that I'm training a guy who makes more than me because he's located in the Bay Area. Nothing against him, it just provides our global clients no extra value to have this guy live in California versus the low COL area where I live. But big companies have their structures.
I'm in a semi-low COL area so getting a remote job in a HCOL area is to my advantage. Is this something that you can possibly pursue?
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but I feel indifferent, betrayed, and just another "Resource".
I think the sooner people figure this out the better their careers and jobs will be. There is a Human Resource department for a reason, it's because that is how most businesses of think of their employees. It's not a bad or evil thing it's just the necessities of running a business that is not a close family business. You need to respond and deal with your employers and managers in the same manner.
We just found out that we are being targeted for acquisition and whole office is already talking about layoffs, rightfully so but still to early. It's just a fact of life for corporate employees/resources in today's business environment where next quarter's numbers are that matters to investor and management.
I actually take a lot of comfort knowing that ultimately, no matter how much my boss "likes me" or otherwise my company sees me as a cog. It means our relationship is strictly business and only as long as it is in our best interests - the company and mine.
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It sounds like you are feeling exploited as well. Have you sought out getting a raise that's, at least, on par to these hires? Since they've kept you around, I imagine you're a very valuable employee. Is getting another job as a senior semiconductor engineer easily done? Money is certainly not everything. I still have mixed feelings about leaving my current employer. Other than the salary, I really like working there so if that's why you're staying, I totally understand. Besides the salary, another motivator for me is that my wife is expecting with our first. Subconsciously, I think this has driven me more to seek out to be a better provider. I guess it's called "provider panic".
Yeah - so I've tried to get a raise, and no go. We are a startup, and we are always low on cash. So it's a hard sell, and I hear "well, you have STOCK!" Uh huh, and I'm fully vested, I can exercise and leave.
I live in a small town, with not a lot of options. I have dipped my toe into the job hunt, and had a couple of interviews. One place was super scary. The other place was awesome, but they ended up not filling the position that I interviewed for.
My problem is, somewhat, that I am picky.
1. I can't move. My husband makes more money, his job is primary.
2. I'm not willing to increase my work hours to a ridiculous amount. I work about 40 now. I have two kids, almost 9 and 2.5, and well, working FT with them sucks - I'm not going to make it worse.
3. I want the job to be interesting.
So, I go along with the idea that if it feels right, I'll send my resume and interview. For the job that I really wanted, though, I took 3 days off work - one to prep for a presentation (while my husband was out of town), one to practice it, and a full 8 hour interview day. With two kids, I don't have a lot of spare PTO so using that and not getting the job really hurt.
It really sucks about not being many women in engineering. There were several senior female engineers, then we got a new (awful) VP boss, and man, I'd never ever felt the glass ceiling so hard. Even the guy who got the (my) promotion to engineering manager said "your problem was being born a woman". (Really, my problem was the new boss, the old boss was going to promote me and when he transferred, he recommended me for the position.)
BUT, those things are out of my control and fighting for them and stewing about it will do me no good, so I transferred to a new position where I am learning new things and I'm pretty independent. And I work my 40 and go home to my family.
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Even the guy who got the (my) promotion to engineering manager said "your problem was being born a woman".
Holy shit. That sounds like a workplace from hell.
People are explicitly saying this and you haven't filed a lawsuit yet?
Even if the person had no power over you, at the very least it's evidence of a hostile workplace.
Comments like that, and the accompanying things you have described, have no place in a civilised society. You should seriously consider having recourse to the legal system.
Yeah, it's for sure hostile. He wasn't trying to be mean - truly, as the eng manager now, he still probably makes less than me (but he should, he's 12 years junior). When the position opened up it was clear that I was not being considered, though they paid lip service to the fact that I was. I opted not to play the game (the "game" was the VP insisting that we both be in by 7:45 am for an 8 am meeting and stay at least until 6:45 pm to attend a 6 pm meeting. He toed the line, and ONE YEAR after the job opened, he got it. In that year I switched bosses and lost 26 pounds).
It's hostile to almost everyone though, not just women. The people in power insist there isn't an issue. Everyone else sees it, but we have no power.
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I opted not to play the game (the "game" was the VP insisting that we both be in by 7:45 am for an 8 am meeting and stay at least until 6:45 pm to attend a 6 pm meeting. He toed the line, and ONE YEAR after the job opened, he got it. In that year I switched bosses and lost 26 pounds).
So the new boss explicitly told you his expectations as far as office hours when meetings were scheduled, you refused to abide by them because of your reasons, and you're surprised / disappointed that the guy who did what he was told got the promotion instead of you? Seriously?
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I opted not to play the game (the "game" was the VP insisting that we both be in by 7:45 am for an 8 am meeting and stay at least until 6:45 pm to attend a 6 pm meeting. He toed the line, and ONE YEAR after the job opened, he got it. In that year I switched bosses and lost 26 pounds).
So the new boss explicitly told you his expectations as far as office hours when meetings were scheduled, you refused to abide by them because of your reasons, and you're surprised / disappointed that the guy who did what he was told got the promotion instead of you? Seriously?
He did not specifically say "this is what is expected to get the job". But he did have meetings with us (separately) to say "we will just have to see how the engineering manager thing pans out, for now I am going to do the job".
Except I'd been doing the job. And - well, he didn't start doing the job. At all. So, the other guy and I just kept doing what we were doing, and ... let's just say that I did not see eye to eye with the VP. He was making decisions on no data (because, well, he wasn't doing the job). He let our senior engineer quit and two weeks later said "what do you mean she developed A, B, and C and did X, Y, and Z?? I didn't know she did all that??"
That's just a sampling. But with that, and a few other things, it was clear that I was not getting the job (trust me, you just ... know).
It was after that when the "extra" meetings started. Pretty sure my office mate spent 6 months going to these "necessary" meetings (he was pretty exhausted, and most of them were entirely unnecessary, and yes, was he bitter!). The two of us actually did a darn good job running the group and fixing the problems (together) because, you know, we aren't a-holes and we wanted the company to succeed. I just ran things in the background and let him be the "meeting guy". Which, you know, women do all the time.
I'm pretty glad that I realized straight up that I wasn't getting the job - there is no way I was going to play that "game", and believe me, it was a game. When the guy on the way out says "she's been basically doing the job already, she's the best person for the job" and it doesn't happen? Well. I'm no dummy. When we were larger, (before the first layoff) I managed a group larger than the one he has now.
Hey, when our company folds, at least my friend will have had the title. Help him going forward.
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That sounds like a similar situation that I was in. My boss left our group, I was (in my mind) the obvious backfill, and wasn't immediately promoted. Talked to his old boss / my new boss to find out what his plans were for the vacant position; he said he was going to wait as long as a year to see if he would fill it. I asked what I needed to demonstrate to him to get the promotion, and he wouldn't provide an answer. I had a follow-up meeting a week later and asked again about what he wanted to see, and he still didn't answer. He then came to me about a week later and essentially "offered" me my current position framed as a new role (It wasn't. It was obvious the guy had no clue about what I'd been doing for the past 3 years, or didn't care.). The related personnel moves to that "offer" let me figure out who he was trying to hold the position open for (it was someone 2 titles below the opening). The way the guy operated, I would be doing the work that my old boss was doing without the increase in title / pay, plus my current job, and would ultimately be leap-frogged by his chosen one. I went home, told my wife I was going to change jobs, and she was on board with it. I let it be known to other powers that be that I was going to leave based on the current situation, and they transferred me to another group within the same company with a with a promotion & pay bump. Turns out I was valued enough by other folks in the building that they didn't want to lose me, so a position got created. I've been subsequently promoted two times, so shaking things up a bit doesn't seem to have hurt my standing within the company.
I guess the moral of the story is, if you think you're getting shat on, you probably are.
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Mm1970, good for you on not dwelling on things. That's one skill I've definitely improved on a lot in the last couple years despite this thread stating otherwise. As a result I find myself happier and others seem to be happier to be around too.
Good news to report... The company in NYC offered me a $114K base + 10% annual bonus + benefits that are better than my current employer + I get to work from home. The culture is right up my alley and would be using tech I like and they are in the financial industry. All things important to me. Another perk is that they're willing to pay for me to get the salesforce technical architect certification and if I get it, they'll bump my salary by 5,000 and give me a 4,000 bonus. I definitely plan on getting that in writing...
Before I accept I told the recruiter I have to talk to my wife first. I'm so glad I did. Her biggest concern is medical coverage. The company does offer medical but would her OB accept that coverage? I said I'll find out. She definitely had concerns. Another was are you sure this is legit because it sounds too good to be true. I had to explain to her that there's a shortage of skilled IT professionals and if you have those skills, companies will fight for you. With a baby on the way, she's definitely thinking about security related aspects and long-term care. Definitely a different perspective. Since I'm not dwelling on things, I told her if she wants me to stay at my current employer, I would if that would keep her happy.
What's a bit unsettling is that I feel like I should be excited about this new opportunity but I kinda feel numb to it. In the past I couldn't wait to change jobs but that's not the case here. I feel more scared than anything. Fear of the unknown is the closest way to explain it. Fear of screwing up a good thing / fear of the new job not being greener on the other side. Maybe it's me just over analyzing it like I usually do. Anyone else feel like this ever?
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Congrats on the job offer!
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What's a bit unsettling is that I feel like I should be excited about this new opportunity but I kinda feel numb to it. In the past I couldn't wait to change jobs but that's not the case here. I feel more scared than anything. Fear of the unknown is the closest way to explain it. Fear of screwing up a good thing / fear of the new job not being greener on the other side. Maybe it's me just over analyzing it like I usually do. Anyone else feel like this ever?
The fear is understandable given that you now have people that are dependent on you. Before if you screwed up it was just you who is impacted but now it's your family. It's natural and to be expected. If you make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time then no matter how it turns out you really can't beat yourself up if it doesn't go according to plan. Just learn from it and move on.
As for the job itself, you said that it's in finance so it doesn't seem to good to be true. If you stay there a couple of more year expect your salary to increase significantly. The thing about finance is it's pretty volatile so layoff every 5-7 years are not uncommon. Hedgefunds and the big institutions are notorious for overpaying and cutting their loses at the first sign of a down turn. The thing is when someone loosing money on a trade there is always someone on the other side making money. So when others are laying off, some are looking to poach good talent from their competitors. If you keep you skills up to date and know what your market rate it, you should be fine.
I don't know what your FIRE goals are but don't fall into the high salary, live it up pace of the financial industry. Bank your increase and it will get you to FI faster and put you in a really strong position to be selective of where and who you work for. You will feel really out of place as a Mustachian in that world but its just noise, don't let it distract you from your goals.
Oh yeah, one more thing take the job! Good luck. You can feel excited about the number of years that you shave off your FI date with your new salary.
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I verbally accepted the job today.
My FIRE goal is 10 years or less from now and I'm about 10% of the way there. Can't wait to save even more and max out the hsa, iras, and 401k for the first time. Trying to find other tax advantaged investments now... Thinking about real estate...
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I verbally accepted the job today.
My FIRE goal is 10 years or less from now and I'm about 10% of the way there. Can't wait to save even more and max out the hsa, iras, and 401k for the first time. Trying to find other tax advantaged investments now... Thinking about real estate...
Congrats!
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I verbally accepted the job today.
My FIRE goal is 10 years or less from now and I'm about 10% of the way there. Can't wait to save even more and max out the hsa, iras, and 401k for the first time. Trying to find other tax advantaged investments now... Thinking about real estate...
Congratulations!!
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Fucking Awesome!
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Yay!
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Just read this entire thread today, and am glad it had a happy ending. Congrats on the new gig. I am pretty sure that you will look back on this later and agree it was a good move. Each new job (I'm also in the same field) brings new experiences, people and challenges. I had a different experience before the birth of my first child 12 years ago, as I was laid off the day before Thanksgiving with a whopping 2 days severance package along with 2 days of medical coverage.
Now I need to work on asking for a raise myself....
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Thanks everyone for the support. It's really appreciated. Hopefully this thread motivates others to think about their careers and have the courage to take action.
Now I'm looking forward to the day when I'm working on the back patio with the nice sun beating on my skin and having lunch with my wife and child every day. Seriously, this is awesome.
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Wow, as a manager for a software development department in a competitive market, this conversation is making me feel very underpaid!
I actually changed jobs when pregnant and it was a very scary experience which ultimately turned out well. When I was pregnant with my second, my husband switched jobs and has never looked back. But it's so hard to disrupt things further than what you already know is coming. In the end it always seems to work out.
Good luck with the switch!
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
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Thanks everyone for the support. It's really appreciated. Hopefully this thread motivates others to think about their careers and have the courage to take action.
Now I'm looking forward to the day when I'm working on the back patio with the nice sun beating on my skin and having lunch with my wife and child every day. Seriously, this is awesome.
I am hoping to be having a similar conversation with my boss in the next month or two - just need to finish a cert and see if I can get a few offers elsewhere to judge my appropriate salary range. :D
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Thanks everyone for the support. It's really appreciated. Hopefully this thread motivates others to think about their careers and have the courage to take action.
Great work and congrats on the new job. I have been following this thread since I find myself in a similar situation. I'm in a sysadmin role rather than dev, but believe I am underpaid. I've turned down offers in the past and my pay has slowly grown here, currently in the ballpark of where you were.
We were bought and then layoffs so my work has grown to include anything remotely IT or are normally different jobs or specialties. The few remaining are paid more than me but I end up doing some of their responsibilities that they don't know how to do, as well as work that used to fall on others, and random things for other departments that are short of staff. I do it because I care about the company and people, but it gets old being underpaid for my main role and then struggling to learn and switch between totally different types of work typically split among a few people or doing mindless work they could pay a warm body half as much for.
There is a new guy that management didn't consult anyone about and does not seem to have the required skills or even a clearly defined role. When I've pointed this out the answer is we'll just send him to training, classes, etc. This is an added insult since he is paid more to do less, and when I went back to school the company would not pay any tuition for me as per their policy, just flat out refused after I had already incurred the costs and lost time. I'd like to stay with the company if things improve but I know they won't pay what I can get elsewhere. I'm risk averse and still have a lot of student loan debt to pay off so the plan is to stick it out for 2-3 years until debt free and then move on, but give the company a chance to pay market rate once I have an offer I'd take and no debt to worry about.
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Gettingitright,
Good luck on your journey. Have you thought about moonlighting to bring in additional income or other things? For example, I have a personal finance blog as a side hobby but have not monetized it. I might try to create a software product in the future... Anyway, keep us informed on how things go.
I hear ya about being the go to guy for various things.The ceo just asked me today if I'd be interested in taking on more work without any additional pay that requires training new hires and partners and coordinating their tasks with various depts afterward. My reply was doing it full-time is not what I want. But I like variety and wouldn't mind doing it occasisionally / for a few hires. It was hard to keep a straight face and not feel sorta bad when I'll probably give notice tomorrow...
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I have a feeling that they are going to match your new salary. Thanks for sharing the experience. Keep us posted.
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Congrats! And best of luck with giving notice as well as starting the new position. It sounds really exciting!
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I put in the papers Thursday night except for one other one to the new company. Friday morning I planned on putting in my 2 weeks so I asked my boss who works remote if we could talk. He asked if it was urgent and I replied it can wait until later. That day he had tons of meetings so we didn't have a chance to talk so I texted him last night saying I wanted to talk to you about putting in my 2 weeks.
This morning, we talked on the phone and had a very candid chat. I essentially told him why I was looking for a job, because I feel underpaid, and what the new job offered and everything. He said well I don't want to lose you. Is it just the money? I came back and said yes and then he was like well what would you stay for because I'm not the haggling type. I said $115. During the discussion I was mentioning to him that my wife said I shouldn't stay and should take the other job and my boss replied before I talk to upper management, talk to your wife and let me know what you want to do. A happy family is more important than anything. That means a lot to me that he said that...
Some back story... All this week, I've been wrestling with deciding what I'd do if they countered, which they haven't yet but we'll see. Based on all the feedback here, from family and friends and logically, I should go! However, emotionally I still want to stay. Based on my actions, that re-affirms how I feel. I didn't go out of my way to push the 2 week notice. After I signed the papers late on Thursday, I was working into the early hours on Friday to complete work. After talking to my boss, who I have an awesome relationship with, I feel at ease with staying if they match the offer or slightly less. One of the reasons I like to follow-up here is that writing helps put things into perspective for me.
Staying is definitely risky. Future promotions and future raises are questionable.? But then again I hope they don't want to see me go. Also, I like the work, the people, my immediate boss, etc. I'm unsure how much more ambitious I'd like to be with my career so am unsure if future promotions are really a big deal. Of course, things change in time. For me, starting elsewhere is risky too. Interviews went really well and they seem to be good guys. I think I'd enjoy working there but would have to find out to confirm. One thing that had me question whether to go work for the other company was leading a team of offshore developers. This was stated in the offer letter. I was like wait a minute they didn't mention offshore guys. I asked the recruiter about this and she said well I don't think they have an off shore team and everyone leaves the office by 6 but even if they do get an off shore team, it's probably like 1 day a week. My experience with off-shore teams has been mostly underwhelming so I don't have a desire to deal with that despite higher comp and perks. This was not mentioned to my boss. I feel like I'm writing this to convince myself to stay if they counter with what I'm looking for.
That's what's going on right now...
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Did you already sign the offer? If so the counter offer is moot. I second listening to your wife.
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I am a fan of never accept a counter. Your name is mud.
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Dude, you told them what you thought you were worth 3 weeks ago, and they didn't care.
Just leave. They don't care.
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I would still leave.
When I get to the point of interviewing, I'm pretty much done.
(Of course for me, I didn't get the most recent job, so I'm not done - but what I did is transfer to a new department).
Anyway.
My $0.02
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Things worked out. My wife and I talked. She said I'm happy with your current employer. I contacted my boss and he contacted mgmt. they agreed to 115. I feel much better. Now, I have to contact the recruiter and the other company to respectfully decline the offer. My wife and I are both comfortable with the decision.
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The lesson to be learned from all this is always negotiate from a position of strength. The first time you tried to negotiate you were pretty much dead in the water, you got a bump yes but not your market rate. So now that you have a offer in hand, fyi it could be imaginary they wouldn't know either way, all of a sudden they can afford $115k. If I recall correctly before their excuse was they couldn't afford to give you that much because the company wasn't doing that well. What happened in the past two months that made them all of a sudden be able to afford you? I'm betting nothing.
Moving forward always be interviewing to find out your market rate. Glad it worked out for you.
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I don't think its a bad decision to stay, considering NYC would of been much higher cost of living for you probably.
The only problem is I think their credibility is shot now that they have went back and forth with you so much. Your mind will start wondering again, only probably sooner.
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Ricky, I would actually have been working from home and not having to relocate to NYC. Ironically, I keep thinking my credibility is currently shot with them. I brought this up to my boss and he said management deals with this stuff frequently and in not so many words don't worry about it. Only time will tell if my mind will wander again.. For now, it's definitely not. I want to do everything in my power to help this company succeed and thrive.
Mxt0133, all good points. Nothing has changed in the last few months except me finding a new job which told them I'm serious about getting market rate. I think during the negotiations they thought I wouldn't leave and I'd settle for less. To be honest, I didn't think they were going to counter. I'm glad they did though.
The prevailing wisdom is to never accept a counter offer. Somewhere stated that 80% of people who accept a counter leave within 6 months. Despite that, I've always been a proponent of taking advice with a grain of salt and to do what you think is best for you even if you're the only person who thinks it's smart. Will things work out? I think so but only time will tell.
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One thing I would say is to not fully shut it down on the job search quite yet, in terms of knowing what you want and what is out there (if not interviewing).
Longer term I think interviewing is good so that, as others have mentioned, you always have a rough idea of your market rate. But, especially in the case of a counter offer, I'd keep in contact with the recruiter and keep looking at jobs at least a little bit informally for the next 2-6 months. Sometimes employers will propose a counter offer so you don't leave in 2 weeks, and then immediately search for someone who would do your job at your previous rate (or just less than you now make) or a reorganization or something so you become expendable. And as soon as they find that person/solution, send you on your way one way or another. The thinking being that they might be able to afford you at 115K for three months even if they can't or don't want to indefinitely. The potential for this obviously varies a ton by the employer.
Also, not to make you paranoid, but it's not like they would tell you that your credibility was shot with them even if it was.
In any case I think you should be celebrating! We're all telling you the potential pitfalls and bad things that might happen so it might be possible to spend too much time worrying about that and forget that you just got a humongous raise! Congratulations and I'm happy for you, internet stranger.
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I'm hedging my bets right now in case things don't work out. Thanks for the support, swashbucklinstache. I'm focusing on what ifs instead of celebrating the raise received. Let's just say I'm hoping for the best but planning for the worst.
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To use Reddit terminology: O.P. delivers! The frequent updates on your progress are cool.
Good job on the negotiations! And never forget that at least for the moment the job market for software engineers is really good.
You got a great new job offer just a short time after you started searching, chances are you could do it again any time you need.
Also remember that being a great company with cool culture is a criterion you can select for when looking for a job just like salary.
The company I'm working for during my upcoming school work term is my preferred choice because it's just an awesome and nice place to work, and I can choose them over others because of that. If you like your current job you can always find another job that is just like it or better, and since you have the skills you'll probably get it.
But it seems your current job is meeting all your needs so enjoy working there! And feel secure in knowing that should it ever stop meeting your needs you can find another awesome place to work.