Social anxiety and Autism Spectrum Disorder

[sheepstache]

I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.

It kind of makes me cringe when people try to throw their intellect around and fail.

Technically, there is no correct spelling for Asperger's Syndrome, as it no longer exists diagnostically. The most recent revision of the DSM (The DSM V) has reclassified it and many others into a single umbrella classification, Autism Spectrum Disorder. This diagnosis is used to cover the range of previous terms that were characterized by deficits in social communication, highly fixed interests, rigid adherence to schedules, sensory sensitivities, etc.

Well 'hysteria' isn't in the DSM any more but there's still an officially correct spelling :) I'm assuming Cathy's just going by the dude's name. Dr. Hans Asperger.  (That's me throwing Wikipedia around).

[Lyssa]

To me, the most interesting aspect of this thread is how the various replies to me basically demonstrate what life is like if you are not good at social skills.

I don't think I have called you anything in my reply to your advise.

Several people on this thread have described how they have successfully improved their social skills. Unless you assume that all of them are lying you should perhaps reconsider your 'don't even try...' position. I really have no problem at all with somebody making the decision to live as an island. Some days I find the idea tempting myself. But if you tell somebody 'don't try' when it can be done and is done on a regular basis you are not being standoffish but could do real damage in somebody else's life. I think this is the reason why some reactions to your post have been very personal and heavy-handed.

For the record: I think you meant well and attempted to simply tell the ugly truth as you see it.

[kmb501]

To me, the most interesting aspect of this thread is how the various replies to me basically demonstrate what life is like if you are not good at social skills. I'm sure some people have noticed that irony, especially since OP mentioned "[p]eople sometimes misjudge my actions because of my problem". I just received a PM where somebody called me a "robot".

Now picture similar events to this thread occurring over and over each day for your entire life so far. Maybe you would feel a bit jaded too.

I see your point. Although I'm usually okay on the internet, I do often feel like a fish out of water in situations IRL. I had a roommate who decided to come home drunk one day and rant about me to one of her buddies. I was listening to the whole conversation through my bedroom door. She called me a b**** and complained about me for various little things that I, surprise, didn't notice. I've also had people blow up in my face because they were tired of my "anti-social habits" and "blatant disregard of common courtesy." I hate the way many people just assume you know the rules when maybe you don't. Enduring all of the stupidity, though, has at least taught me to try not to judge other people based on action alone, and, for that, I'm willing to accept that you were just trying to give me helpful advice, and I thank you, but please don't see the glass as completely empty. There's always a little bit of sunshine after those unbearably cloudy days. Plus, I know from experience that I'm not truly anti-social, so those group three people might make great friends. 

Also, there may be a group four, people who have ASD and overcame their social awkwardness or who are / were very close to people with ASD who want to form genuine bonds with us because they think we are great people. Hey, the possibility's always out there, and if you can tolerate a little social misunderstanding, people with ASD and other mild disorders probably make great friends.

[caliq]

I just wanted to give you some encouragement -- there are people like those you've just described and you should definitely try to push your boundaries a bit and maybe you will find others you are able to form meaningful relationships with :)

My husband isn't ASD but he has a neurological sleep disorder that basically makes it so he constantly feels as if he hasn't slept in three days (or, how a normal person would feel if they hadn't.  I don't think he could physically not sleep for even 1 day...).  He was the popular, jocky, class clown type kid in high school -- friends with everyone.  Since developing this disorder in his early/mid 20s, he's had a serious decline in his social skills.  It's because he's so sleepy that he can't focus on a conversation or body language, or process what people are saying to him, etc etc.  He just doesn't notice things or pick up on cues anymore.  This has led to issues at various jobs with coworkers (plus them judging him as 'lazy' because he can literally fall asleep in the middle of any task, even things like soldering), and definitely curbed his ability to make and keep friends.  He's got pretty severe social anxiety because of it at this point--only really leaves the house to go to the VA for doctor's appointments, visit family, or if I drag him with me; doesn't really even make phone calls anymore unless he's absolutely forced to.  So he's having a lot of the social issues you are, just for a different reason. 

I met and married him after this started; he's never been the kind of guy I feel super comfortable bringing in heavily social situations (parties with friends or whatever).  There were, and probably always will be, moments in which he doesn't get what I'm saying or projecting, and doesn't necessarily react properly.  There have been fights around this issue, but we're working on it.  He's really a great person, one on one.  I just like to joke that I can't take him in public because he invariably says something incredibly embarrassing (for me) and/or rude (to others).  He was very reluctant to meet my family when we started dating, but due to the aforementioned disability, lost his job fairly quickly afterwards and we ended up moving back in with my parents for a few months -- they think he's great now, because they took the time to get to know him one on one or in small groups.  In larger groups, he just fades away to the back and usually ends up on the couch messing around on his phone.  Honestly I think my mom is more understanding of his social quirks than I am. 

So basically my point is that you shouldn't give up and there are ways to have meaningful relationships without forcing yourself into situations that are terribly uncomfortable. 

I also think that part of DH's strength in dealing with this is his incredibly thick skin -- he was a Marine and none of the situations you've described would have phased him one bit.  I'm the exact opposite so I totally get why you want everyone to like you and why it's upsetting that your roommate was talking shit and the kids were sexually harassing you (seriously, that's what they did with the videoing/wife comments and I would honestly be tempted to pursue that if I was you...that kid is an asshole and will grow up to be an even bigger asshole if he doesn't start getting hit with serious consequences for his behavior).  I'm working on not caring so much, and I think that's probably going to be a big deal for you too -- you have to get to the point where you honestly don't care about stuff like that.  And....fake it til you make it ;)  Especially in front of the kids.  Teenagers are jerks and they will eat you alive if they sense weakness (sounds like a horror movie...).

[kmb501]

For that matter, why can some people get away with murder socially? There's a certain personality that won't allow anyone to take advantage of it. If you say anything to them that even sounds wrong, they go into a rage and target you emotionally. Some people know exactly what to say to hit where it hurts. How on Earth do they do that, and how do they actually remain well liked or gain likeability because of it? It confuses me. I try to be as nice as I can to people, and they walk over me, take me for granted, or label me as "weird." The socially dominant jerk, on the other hand, has a lot of friends in most circles. Why are people like this? It really confuses me.

Case in point, if those teens would have had a different understanding of social norms, someone would have said something to the kids who were trying to give me a hard time. It would not have been seen as socially acceptable, but, as it stands, the kids were enjoying it. I know I was the adult in the situation, but I was obviously having trouble, and they encouraged that kid by paying attention and laughing. It's normal for people to be bullied. Society often turns a blind eye. Social rules can be broken if a person is well liked. I don't understand the science of likeability and why unsavory people can get away with so much. I wish someone with charisma would take me under wing and teach me everything I'm doing wrong. 

[Annamal]

For that matter, why can some people get away with murder socially? There's a certain personality that won't allow anyone to take advantage of it. If you say anything to them that even sounds wrong, they go into a rage and target you emotionally. Some people know exactly what to say to hit where it hurts. How on Earth do they do that, and how do they actually remain well liked or gain likeability because of it? It confuses me. I try to be as nice as I can to people, and they walk over me, take me for granted, or label me as "weird." The socially dominant jerk, on the other hand, has a lot of friends in most circles. Why are people like this? It really confuses me.

Case in point, if those teens would have had a different understanding of social norms, someone would have said something to the kids who were trying to give me a hard time. It would not have been seen as socially acceptable, but, as it stands, the kids were enjoying it. I know I was the adult in the situation, but I was obviously having trouble, and they encouraged that kid by paying attention and laughing. It's normal for people to be bullied. Society often turns a blind eye. Social rules can be broken if a person is well liked. I don't understand the science of likeability and why unsavory people can get away with so much. I wish someone with charisma would take me under wing and teach me everything I'm doing wrong.

I think I understand the urge but bear in mind a lot of what you are taking as support from bystanders to bullying is actually fear.

If they step in, or even act in a way that is less than supportive then they fear that they will turn themselves into a target.

Whatever Machiavelli said, it is definitely not better to be feared than loved (if only because those who fear you will turn on a dime as soon as they perceive weakness).

It's why a lot of anti bullying campaigns target bystanders, because there are usually much more of them and if you can convince just a few to step in then the odds of a situation tilt against the bully.

[AllieVaulter]

For that matter, why can some people get away with murder socially? There's a certain personality that won't allow anyone to take advantage of it. If you say anything to them that even sounds wrong, they go into a rage and target you emotionally. Some people know exactly what to say to hit where it hurts. How on Earth do they do that, and how do they actually remain well liked or gain likeability because of it? It confuses me. I try to be as nice as I can to people, and they walk over me, take me for granted, or label me as "weird." The socially dominant jerk, on the other hand, has a lot of friends in most circles. Why are people like this? It really confuses me.

Case in point, if those teens would have had a different understanding of social norms, someone would have said something to the kids who were trying to give me a hard time. It would not have been seen as socially acceptable, but, as it stands, the kids were enjoying it. I know I was the adult in the situation, but I was obviously having trouble, and they encouraged that kid by paying attention and laughing. It's normal for people to be bullied. Society often turns a blind eye. Social rules can be broken if a person is well liked. I don't understand the science of likeability and why unsavory people can get away with so much. I wish someone with charisma would take me under wing and teach me everything I'm doing wrong.

I think I understand the urge but bear in mind a lot of what you are taking as support from bystanders to bullying is actually fear.

If they step in, or even act in a way that is less than supportive then they fear that they will turn themselves into a target.

Whatever Machiavelli said, it is definitely not better to be feared than loved (if only because those who fear you will turn on a dime as soon as they perceive weakness).

It's why a lot of anti bullying campaigns target bystanders, because there are usually much more of them and if you can convince just a few to step in then the odds of a situation tilt against the bully.

+1

People follow strength.  They don't always stop to consider whether that strength is being used well.  And teens are so confused themselves.  They're still trying to form a framework for how they behave.  And 98% of teens are terrified of being identified as "different", so even if they're uncomfortable with someone's behavior they're too afraid to stand out by standing up.  They figure that as a substitute you'll be gone in a day or two, while they will have to continue taking the same classes with the bully for the next 4 years. 

I would encourage you to continue to try and be a kind person, but also focus on being a confident person.  Obviously, this is not easy.  Plenty of people struggle with this (I still do).  But as Lyssa said, sometimes you have to "fake it until you can make it".  But I prefer to think of it more as practicing my confidence so I don't reinforce the idea of me being a fake.  A lot of times a bit of confidence in yourself can cut the legs off such taunts.  That "wife" comment was so outrageous (like a teen is an expert on marriage in any way), it may have gone over well if you could manage a laugh in such a case.  Not an appreciative laugh, but a scoff, and move on.

I'm not sure what topics you end up teaching, but if you can find some good segues to get the focus of the students back on school, most of those students who are following the bully will allow themselves to be pulled back on topic.  As far as specifics...  "Thank you for the wonderful demonstration of a working circuit.  One thing all circuits have in common is that they produce Ohmic heat.  This means that they will heat up, which is why your cell phone gets warm when you have a long conversation, or why it's so important to keep your Xbox in a well ventilated space so you don't get that red ring of death..."  (I'm a physics person)  Ideally, try to make your comment something they'll find relevant (cell phones, video games, Facebook, Twitter, etc).  It's best if it's something interesting, something to explain a phenomenon they've observed before but have no explanation.  I chose this example because I've noticed that there's inevitably one person who gets excited when I mention the "Red Ring of Death".  Keep an eye out for what does interest your students about your subject(s). 

Full disclosure - I'm not particularly witty and I can't guarantee these methods will work.  I've never substituted, I can only imagine how difficult it must be.  I admire your determination to adapt and improve your responses. 

[BPA]

To me, the most interesting aspect of this thread is how the various replies to me basically demonstrate what life is like if you are not good at social skills. I'm sure some people have noticed that irony, especially since OP mentioned "[p]eople sometimes misjudge my actions because of my problem". I just received a PM where somebody called me a "robot".

Now picture similar events to this thread occurring over and over each day for your entire life so far. Maybe you would feel a bit jaded too.

So, you can call people out and ask them not to do things that make you cringe, but when they point out similar things you do that are cringe-worthy, that's not okay?  I guess you are missing that particular irony.

Sheepstache:  I am a woman and a feminist.  I hope I've mostly deprogrammed myself from my socialization but am not so arrogant as to assume that I am 100% there.  I am an ENTP though and flout convention pretty frequently. so I suspect that I am not prone to having different expectations of male and female behaviour.  Something to reflect on though.

[dragoncar]

I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.

I prefer "assburger's" myself

Anyways, lay off Cathy, guys.  Yes, she often has an unconventional viewpoint, but we need her around for the spot-on legal advice and mathematical analysis she provides.

It's a bit like studies showing that if a boy child and a girl child are making noise at the same volume, the girl is more likely to be reprimanded.

Likely the girl has a higher pitched voice, which at the same decibel levels will be subjectively perceived to have a higher volume.

edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur.  God help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"

[BPA]

I can't tell you the number of times I've been chastised for "not behaving as a woman should behave" or not being "ladylike."  Usually I just tell those people to fuck off.  ;)

I teach a novel about a boy with ASD, and I've never quite had the "assburger's" spelling submitted in an essay before.  I keep expecting it though. 

[Guses]

edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur.  Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"

Fixed for you.

OP

I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.

If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.

If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.

*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!

[mozar]

KMB: You deserve treatment for your anxiety and (likely) depression. It's going to take awhile to move forward and it's going to be hard to progress in your career without treatment (whether it be books, counseling etc.) Can you call the free clinic to see if they can connect you with other services? And if calling is too scary, can you stop by?

FWIW I googled aspergers and came up with asbergers and even the spell check in this box wants me to correct these words to "aspersions" and "beefburgers."

[kmb501]

KMB: You deserve treatment for your anxiety and (likely) depression. It's going to take awhile to move forward and it's going to be hard to progress in your career without treatment (whether it be books, counseling etc.) Can you call the free clinic to see if they can connect you with other services? And if calling is too scary, can you stop by?

FWIW I googled aspergers and came up with asbergers and even the spell check in this box wants me to correct these words to "aspersions" and "beefburgers."

That's all very good advice. Thank you.

On the spelling tip, try Googling "Asperger's" or just "AS," you'll probably come up with a lot of information then. Spell check won't try to correct you if you use a capital "A," at least it doesn't try to correct me.   

[kmb501]

edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur.  Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"

Fixed for you.

OP

I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.

If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.

If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.

*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!

Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.

[Guses]

The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.

If the student continues, act on your warning.

Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.

It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.

Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.

[BPA]

edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur.  Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"

Fixed for you.

OP

I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.

If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.

If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.

*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!

Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.

Being strict can work or it can backfire.  You can't be who you aren't.  I never had to be strict right away.  My strategy was to focus on positive reinforcement.

For example, I would make two lists: one of students who were doing their work and behaving, and one of students who weren't doing their work but were behaving and I would write up a cute little note for the regular teacher letting her know what was going on in class.  The teacher could read between the lines and discover who was doing nothing.  The kids would want to be on the "good list" and sometimes they actually did more work for me than their classroom teacher.  "Won't she be surprised that *I* was behaving myself when she was gone!" one of them said.

Kids never sat according to the seating plan when their teacher was away, and I didn't worry about that.  I found out their names by letting them know that they were on one of the lists and that I wanted to let their teacher know that.  I found that it was easy to find out the names of the troublemakers simply by listening because the other kids would always say their names.  That way I never had to ask what a troublemaker's name was because they would lie anyway.  Then, I could use the troublemaker's name and say something like, "Okay, Johnny.  Let's see if we can get your name onto the well-behaved list."  It would freak them out as in, "How does she know my name" and their behaviour usually got better. 

I have a quick wit and they soon learned that if they were going to try to "burn" me, that I could do it back x10.  "Wife?  Why would I want to be your wife?  Are you looking to get married now because I'm sure there are plenty of girls in your class who would love to be married to you."  None of them would be likely to speak up, but even if they did, you could turn it into a funny wedding proposal thing that would take the emphasis off you being insulted and place it on them.  Yes, it's silly, but it worked for me.  Showing a sense of humour helps a great deal.

Once you've developed a reputation, it's hard to live that down, but not impossible.  The good news is that a good reputation makes life so much easier.

Ultimately, you have to do what feels comfortable to you. I probably have the best reputation in my school as a classroom manager and it's because of the way I relate to the kids. They have told me that I'm mostly laidback, but if someone crosses the line I am super strict.  They understand that I believe in mutual respect and that I truly care about them.  It was harder to establish that when I was a sub, but I did manage it. 

As I've said before, teaching is a social profession.  The people I've worked with who had ASD have struggled a great deal. It's not impossible though.

[BPA]

The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.

If the student continues, act on your warning.

Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.

It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.

Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.

Really?  Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own.  That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion.  And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low.  In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.

[caliq]

The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.

If the student continues, act on your warning.

Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.

It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.

Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.

Really?  Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own.  That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion.  And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low.  In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.

I took that to mean the kid with the wife thing would have been 'expelled from the class' not expelled from school.  If it meant expelled from school, then I agree with you that it seems a bit harsh.  But he definitely should have faced some sort of consequences from administrators; that's sexual harassment and it's not okay. 

[kmb501]

The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.

If the student continues, act on your warning.

Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.

It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.

Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.

Really?  Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own.  That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion.  And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low.  In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.

It's like that around here, too, and what can I do about whole class misbehavior? The students who were laughing and out of their seats carrying on when that kid was harassing me were just as guilty as the original kid. I would have had to have written the whole class up.

[kmb501]

edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur.  Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"

Fixed for you.

OP

I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.

If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.

If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.

*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!

Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.

Being strict can work or it can backfire.  You can't be who you aren't.  I never had to be strict right away.  My strategy was to focus on positive reinforcement.

For example, I would make two lists: one of students who were doing their work and behaving, and one of students who weren't doing their work but were behaving and I would write up a cute little note for the regular teacher letting her know what was going on in class.  The teacher could read between the lines and discover who was doing nothing.  The kids would want to be on the "good list" and sometimes they actually did more work for me than their classroom teacher.  "Won't she be surprised that *I* was behaving myself when she was gone!" one of them said.

Kids never sat according to the seating plan when their teacher was away, and I didn't worry about that.  I found out their names by letting them know that they were on one of the lists and that I wanted to let their teacher know that.  I found that it was easy to find out the names of the troublemakers simply by listening because the other kids would always say their names.  That way I never had to ask what a troublemaker's name was because they would lie anyway.  Then, I could use the troublemaker's name and say something like, "Okay, Johnny.  Let's see if we can get your name onto the well-behaved list."  It would freak them out as in, "How does she know my name" and their behaviour usually got better. 

I have a quick wit and they soon learned that if they were going to try to "burn" me, that I could do it back x10.  "Wife?  Why would I want to be your wife?  Are you looking to get married now because I'm sure there are plenty of girls in your class who would love to be married to you."  None of them would be likely to speak up, but even if they did, you could turn it into a funny wedding proposal thing that would take the emphasis off you being insulted and place it on them.  Yes, it's silly, but it worked for me.  Showing a sense of humour helps a great deal.

Once you've developed a reputation, it's hard to live that down, but not impossible.  The good news is that a good reputation makes life so much easier.

Ultimately, you have to do what feels comfortable to you. I probably have the best reputation in my school as a classroom manager and it's because of the way I relate to the kids. They have told me that I'm mostly laidback, but if someone crosses the line I am super strict.  They understand that I believe in mutual respect and that I truly care about them.  It was harder to establish that when I was a sub, but I did manage it. 

As I've said before, teaching is a social profession.  The people I've worked with who had ASD have struggled a great deal. It's not impossible though.

If I were explicitly taught how to use wit with the students, I could probably do it, but I'm just not used to those kinds of situations. When I try it, they sense that I'm not comfortable and try to turn it around on me. I would need a script at first. You have to remember, I haven't had as many safe opportunities to practice things like that. Typically, I avoid social situations if they aren't absolutely necessary. I've only recently started to get out of it.

[BPA]

The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.

If the student continues, act on your warning.

Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.

It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.

Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.

Really?  Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own.  That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion.  And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low.  In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.

I took that to mean the kid with the wife thing would have been 'expelled from the class' not expelled from school.  If it meant expelled from school, then I agree with you that it seems a bit harsh.  But he definitely should have faced some sort of consequences from administrators; that's sexual harassment and it's not okay.

While you are right about it being sexual harassment, sub teachers are in a very precarious employment position.  My boyfriend is one of the union leaders fighting stuff like this and he will speak up about such situations, but he has effectively destroyed his chances of getting a permanent contract.  He will likely be subbing for the rest of his career.

The reality is that parents reign supreme and admin caves to them. 

As a permanent contract teacher, I would discuss the sexism and hope learning would happen from there, but as a sub...unless you want to never get a contract, you try not to make too many waves.  It's not right but it's reality and those fighting it have jeopardized their own careers.

[BPA]

edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur.  Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"

Fixed for you.

OP

I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.

If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.

If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.

*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!

Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.

Being strict can work or it can backfire.  You can't be who you aren't.  I never had to be strict right away.  My strategy was to focus on positive reinforcement.

For example, I would make two lists: one of students who were doing their work and behaving, and one of students who weren't doing their work but were behaving and I would write up a cute little note for the regular teacher letting her know what was going on in class.  The teacher could read between the lines and discover who was doing nothing.  The kids would want to be on the "good list" and sometimes they actually did more work for me than their classroom teacher.  "Won't she be surprised that *I* was behaving myself when she was gone!" one of them said.

Kids never sat according to the seating plan when their teacher was away, and I didn't worry about that.  I found out their names by letting them know that they were on one of the lists and that I wanted to let their teacher know that.  I found that it was easy to find out the names of the troublemakers simply by listening because the other kids would always say their names.  That way I never had to ask what a troublemaker's name was because they would lie anyway.  Then, I could use the troublemaker's name and say something like, "Okay, Johnny.  Let's see if we can get your name onto the well-behaved list."  It would freak them out as in, "How does she know my name" and their behaviour usually got better. 

I have a quick wit and they soon learned that if they were going to try to "burn" me, that I could do it back x10.  "Wife?  Why would I want to be your wife?  Are you looking to get married now because I'm sure there are plenty of girls in your class who would love to be married to you."  None of them would be likely to speak up, but even if they did, you could turn it into a funny wedding proposal thing that would take the emphasis off you being insulted and place it on them.  Yes, it's silly, but it worked for me.  Showing a sense of humour helps a great deal.

Once you've developed a reputation, it's hard to live that down, but not impossible.  The good news is that a good reputation makes life so much easier.

Ultimately, you have to do what feels comfortable to you. I probably have the best reputation in my school as a classroom manager and it's because of the way I relate to the kids. They have told me that I'm mostly laidback, but if someone crosses the line I am super strict.  They understand that I believe in mutual respect and that I truly care about them.  It was harder to establish that when I was a sub, but I did manage it. 

As I've said before, teaching is a social profession.  The people I've worked with who had ASD have struggled a great deal. It's not impossible though.

If I were explicitly taught how to use wit with the students, I could probably do it, but I'm just not used to those kinds of situations. When I try it, they sense that I'm not comfortable and try to turn it around on me. I would need a script at first. You have to remember, I haven't had as many safe opportunities to practice things like that. Typically, I avoid social situations if they aren't absolutely necessary. I've only recently started to get out of it.

I know.  It's why the teachers I've worked with who have ASD have struggled.  And scripts aren't wit.  Scripts can help though.  The poster on page one with that lovely list of things she's come up with to help herself seems to have come up with strategies to help with her life.  Let me see if I can think of some catch phrases that might be helpful.  The problem is that kids can be unpredictable.  Scripts help for sure, but they may not be enough.

[BPA]

Here are some ideas.  I'll think of some more, but I hope these will help.

“Good Morning.  I’m Mr./Ms. ____________ and I will be your teacher for today.”

“Ms./Mr.  _________________ has left this lesson plan and expects the work to be completed when he/she returns.  I plan to let her/him know who has been working really hard and who has been behaving themselves.”

If a student is challenging your authority:  “Mr./Ms. ___________ has an expectation that this work will be completed.  It’s my job to communicate this information and it’s your job to complete the assignment.  I would really like to let your teacher know that you were one of the cooperative, hard-working students.”

For students who are doing their work and cooperating: “This is really great.  Ms./Mr. ______ will be so pleased to know that you are getting your work done.  What’s your name again? I want to put you on the ‘Working Hard and Well Behaved List.’”  I wouldn't announce it to the class.  When the troublemakers see what is going on, they will quiet down so that they can hear what you are saying to the others.  This is when many of them would settle down and get to work for me.

Other ideas:
As the class was settling in, if I already knew a student from a previous substitute gig, I would ask them how they’d been since the last time I’d seen them.  Making positive connections is imperative to teaching.

Remain unruffled.  If they see that they can’t get a rise out of you, most of them will stop trying.  Teaching requires a thick skin.

I would allow them to work on assignments together as long as they were behaving like Guses suggested.

I would never take attendance orally.  I would always walk around while they were doing seat work and get them to write down their names.  That helped me to figure out who was whom.  Sometimes they would write down Phil McCrackin or Ben Dover.  I would remind them that if I didn’t have their actual name, they would be marked absent and truant.  They didn’t want to be marked as skipping class when they were actually there.

[Guses]

Really?  Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own.  That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion.  And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low.  In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.

I meant expelled from class, not from school.

The administrators could wonder all they wanted, I dealt with troublemakers and that was it. I never had trouble being called back for more subbing. I was not on contract.

The tips that you suggested are probably good for a normal "well behaved" class but I was often subbing for "learning trouble" class AKA the rejects and trouble makers from the regular classes.

[BPA]

Caliq:  Another example of how frustrating discipline can be depending on where one teaches happened just last month.  A young permanent contract teacher was called a "fucking bitch" in the hallway by a student.  Another teacher overheard it.  The teacher who was sworn at told the vice principal who was reluctant to suspend the student because "this is out of character for her" (actually, it wasn't) and because her dad would fight it.  So, the vp didn't believe her and was afraid of the dad. The teacher who was sworn at gave the name of the other teacher who was a witness.

Instead of interviewing the teacher witness, the vp interviewed students who surprise, surprise claimed they didn't hear anything.  The vp also said she checked the security camera...which doesn't have any sound!  So she was trying to determine from grainy video if the kid mouthed the words "fucking bitch?"

Teacher who was sworn at summoned me, the union rep, for support.  As soon as I showed up, the vp's tune changed and the girl was suspended because swearing at teachers usually merits a 3 day suspension.  It disturbs me that it took union intervention to have an appropriate consequence. 

If KMB's school district is like mine, there's no way she'd get support for what that student said to her.

[BPA]

Really?  Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own.  That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion.  And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low.  In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.

I meant expelled from class, not from school.

The administrators could wonder all they wanted, I dealt with troublemakers and that was it. I never had trouble being called back for more subbing. I was not on contract.

The tips that you suggested are probably good for a normal "well behaved" class but I was often subbing for "learning trouble" class AKA the rejects and trouble makers from the regular classes.

Nope.  I always got the tough classes although I wouldn't call them rejects. 

When I got a class that wouldn't challenge me, it was like a holiday!  When I started my permanent contract for about the first week and had one class that didn't have any kids with behaviour issues in it, I thought, "What?  Like you are all going to do your work without too much cajoling from me?"

My department head once introduced me to our new principal as, "the teacher who has the best rapport with the worst kids in the school."  So, my strategies worked for "those kids" too.

[Guses]

Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.

They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.

So I think reject is highly appropriate.

[Alchemilla]

OP hugs for your troubles.

Reading what you have written I find a lot of it applies to me.

Supply teachers really have the hardest front line job at the chalkface.

Students behave in ways they would never consider with established staff.

Have you read "You know the fair rule" by Bill Rogers? The best thing I have read on classroom management.

I think there is a danger in the witty comeback and you do well not to engage.
That said I have a few of my own, though they are more designed to defuse than antagonise.

My favourite is "I resemble that remark" when mildly insulted.

xxx

[kmb501]

Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.

They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.

So I think reject is highly appropriate.

I don't know if I've ever really encountered troubled groups of students who had no hope of learning what they needed, but I have encountered plenty of kids who couldn't care less about what was on the board and seemed to revel in giving me a hard time. It also seems to get worse every year. It seems like I lose something I had in common with the kids every year that passes by. Either that, or the behavior actually does get worse every year. I try new strategies, and they backfire, or the kids learn my tricks and use them against me because they are upset that I gave them a "hard time." It's really a no-win situation.

[BPA]

Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.

They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.

So I think reject is highly appropriate.

As the parent of a child who has been in one of these classes, I find the term "reject" highly offensive and if I knew my son's teacher was considering him to be a "reject" I would be complaining to his or her supervisor.

The teachers who haven't treated my son as a "reject" are the ones who have the greatest success with him.

And I have taught those classes too many times over my 19 year career.  I would never ever call my students rejects. 

[BPA]

Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.

They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.

So I think reject is highly appropriate.

I don't know if I've ever really encountered troubled groups of students who had no hope of learning what they needed, but I have encountered plenty of kids who couldn't care less about what was on the board and seemed to revel in giving me a hard time. It also seems to get worse every year. It seems like I lose something I had in common with the kids every year that passes by. Either that, or the behavior actually does get worse every year. I try new strategies, and they backfire, or the kids learn my tricks and use them against me because they are upset that I gave them a "hard time." It's really a no-win situation.

KMB:  How many years have you been subbing?

[Guses]

Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.

They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.

So I think reject is highly appropriate.

As the parent of a child who has been in one of these classes, I find the term "reject" highly offensive and if I knew my son's teacher was considering him to be a "reject" I would be complaining to his or her supervisor.

The teachers who haven't treated my son as a "reject" are the ones who have the greatest success with him.

And I have taught those classes too many times over my 19 year career.  I would never ever call my students rejects.

Just so we are clear, I am not talking about mentally challenged or dyslexic kids here but student that have attitude problems.

I stand by what I said and I did not use the term derogatorily. It is just the most accurate term.

You seem to be a great teacher, why did you not use your techniques to teach your son so that he did not have to be in that class?

[kmb501]

Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.

They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.

So I think reject is highly appropriate.

I don't know if I've ever really encountered troubled groups of students who had no hope of learning what they needed, but I have encountered plenty of kids who couldn't care less about what was on the board and seemed to revel in giving me a hard time. It also seems to get worse every year. It seems like I lose something I had in common with the kids every year that passes by. Either that, or the behavior actually does get worse every year. I try new strategies, and they backfire, or the kids learn my tricks and use them against me because they are upset that I gave them a "hard time." It's really a no-win situation.

KMB:  How many years have you been subbing?

I think this makes year three.

[caliq]

Caliq:  Another example of how frustrating discipline can be depending on where one teaches happened just last month.  A young permanent contract teacher was called a "fucking bitch" in the hallway by a student.  Another teacher overheard it.  The teacher who was sworn at told the vice principal who was reluctant to suspend the student because "this is out of character for her" (actually, it wasn't) and because her dad would fight it.  So, the vp didn't believe her and was afraid of the dad. The teacher who was sworn at gave the name of the other teacher who was a witness.

Instead of interviewing the teacher witness, the vp interviewed students who surprise, surprise claimed they didn't hear anything.  The vp also said she checked the security camera...which doesn't have any sound!  So she was trying to determine from grainy video if the kid mouthed the words "fucking bitch?"

Teacher who was sworn at summoned me, the union rep, for support.  As soon as I showed up, the vp's tune changed and the girl was suspended because swearing at teachers usually merits a 3 day suspension.  It disturbs me that it took union intervention to have an appropriate consequence. 

If KMB's school district is like mine, there's no way she'd get support for what that student said to her.

Wow :( 

I obviously have no experience on the teacher end of things, and was just speaking from my fairly recent memories of high school.  I don't think I was terrible to subs, or regular teachers, but I was definitely one the disinterested ones. 

I hope things improve for you, kmb.

[justajane]

It disturbs me that even at such a young age, boys (who are not yet even men) feel like they can humiliate and verbally attack adult women in leadership positions. I wonder if this kind of misogyny is modeled for them at home or is something that some boys just naturally embrace for a time (or forever if they are not set straight). Notice we aren't hearing stories of male teachers being abused. I do recall an older, eccentric science teacher at my middle school being made fun of, but I don't recall it being to his face.

BPA's story enrages me.
 

[RetiredAt63]

@justajane - students go for the jugular anyway - my general science teacher in grade 9 had been a research chemist, and thought he wanted to teach.  Everyone had to take general science, and this class was about half those who wanted to learn, 1/4 who didn't care, and 1/4 who really didn't want to be there.  And that 1/4 was all guys, and they were mostly already bigger than the teacher.  They made his life, and our class, a living hell for the first few weeks.  He went back to research after that year.

What made it work for the rest of the year, was that the keeners who had sat at the front (by choice) got moved to the back, and the back row (the jerks) got moved to the very front.  That meant he saw everything they did, and they lost most of their audience, since to see the rest of the class's reaction to their wonderful stupidity they had to turn around, and then they couldn't see him.  Of course this is harder to do if seating is mandatory.  It was also hard on the keeners, since in a mixed ability/interest class like this, everything gets gone over 3 times.  I got a lot of extra reading done sitting in the back row  ;-(

[Psychstache]

It disturbs me that even at such a young age, boys (who are not yet even men) feel like they can humiliate and verbally attack adult women in leadership positions. I wonder if this kind of misogyny is modeled for them at home or is something that some boys just naturally embrace for a time (or forever if they are not set straight). Notice we aren't hearing stories of male teachers being abused. I do recall an older, eccentric science teacher at my middle school being made fun of, but I don't recall it being to his face.

BPA's story enrages me.
 

You don't hear stories of male teachers getting abused because they barely exist. Most male employees are junior high or high school coaches that are forced to be teachers. They typically suck* and just pass kids along and don't put up much of a fuss. It is hard for students to rattle you or be disrespectful if your curriculum consists of handing out worksheets and then giving kids the answers if they ask a question and letting them watch Rudy and other sports movies on Fridays (an actual situation I encountered with a coach at a school I worked at).

Also, statistically you won't hear the stories because the ratio of male teachers to female teachers is so skewed. If you teach at a high school, male or female, you will have students attempt to verbally assault and humiliate you, unless you are just showing up to collect a check and make no attempt to hold students to any kind of standard.

*I have worked with some absolutely phenomenal teachers who were also coaches, but for the most part the stereotype holds up.

[Annamal]

It disturbs me that even at such a young age, boys (who are not yet even men) feel like they can humiliate and verbally attack adult women in leadership positions. I wonder if this kind of misogyny is modeled for them at home or is something that some boys just naturally embrace for a time (or forever if they are not set straight). Notice we aren't hearing stories of male teachers being abused. I do recall an older, eccentric science teacher at my middle school being made fun of, but I don't recall it being to his face.

BPA's story enrages me.
 

You don't hear stories of male teachers getting abused because they barely exist. Most male employees are junior high or high school coaches that are forced to be teachers. They typically suck* and just pass kids along and don't put up much of a fuss. It is hard for students to rattle you or be disrespectful if your curriculum consists of handing out worksheets and then giving kids the answers if they ask a question and letting them watch Rudy and other sports movies on Fridays (an actual situation I encountered with a coach at a school I worked at).

Also, statistically you won't hear the stories because the ratio of male teachers to female teachers is so skewed. If you teach at a high school, male or female, you will have students attempt to verbally assault and humiliate you, unless you are just showing up to collect a check and make no attempt to hold students to any kind of standard.

*I have worked with some absolutely phenomenal teachers who were also coaches, but for the most part the stereotype holds up.

My dad was a teacher and was nearly assaulted with a keyboard (computer, not musical tank goodness) , there was also the time some ex-students burned down his wing of the school.
Male teachers definitely face abuse (although it may take different forms than that directed against female teachers).